ChewintheCud Podcast
The Team, based in the South West of England, explore their passion for cows and the dairy industry as they talk about a range of industry related topics.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com
ChewintheCud Podcast
The Transition Period: Setting Cows Up for Success
The transition period is the highest-risk window in a dairy cow's life, with far-reaching consequences for health, productivity, and farm profitability. In this comprehensive episode, we speak with Donald Lawson, head of the ruminant team at Premier Nutrition, who shares invaluable insights from his extensive experience managing transition cow nutrition.
Donald reveals how approximately 80% of health problems in dairy cows originate during the six-week window around calving, and how getting transition management right can save farms an average of 6 pence per litre. Drawing from Premier Nutrition's Transition Management System data covering 200,000 cows, he breaks down the critical factors that determine transition success – from optimal body condition scores to feed space requirements and straw processing techniques.
We explore a wide range of transition approaches, including partial and full DCAD diets, calcium binders, and the highly effective "Goldilocks" diet focusing on optimal forage NDF levels. Donald explains the science behind these strategies while providing practical, farm-level implementation advice that works across different systems.
Perhaps most fascinating is the emerging research showing how transition management affects not just the cow but also her calf, with proper calcium levels at day four post-calving linked to improved calf health outcomes. We also discuss the latest findings on amino acids, choline, and other nutritional interventions that provide returns throughout the entire lactation cycle.
Whether you're struggling with milk fever, ketosis, or simply want to optimize your transition program, this episode offers both technical depth and practical wisdom. Donald's parting advice? "Don't go looking for savings in your dry cow diet. It's the one place you should spend the money."
This was recorded in June 2025, and all information was correct at the time of recording.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast or X/Twitter @chewinthecudpod. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com
This is the Chewing the Cut podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listen to Around the World. Hello and welcome to Tune. The Cut podcast. My name is Andrew Jones and with me today is Sarah Bolt.
Sarah Bolt:How are you doing, sarah, I'm good. Thank you, and you, andrew.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. I know we're going to talk about the weather again, but, uh, feeling a bit creatures yeah, creatures of habit. Definitely british we're british feeling a bit warm for you today oh, too hot for me, definitely I'm.
Sarah Bolt:I prefer it cool. I'd prefer it to be really really cold than really really hot definitely yeah, well, I don't blame you there, I don't blame you.
Andrew Jones:I mean, let's be honest. A few people say to me, is it a bit warm? Like well, it's not too bad. But let's be honest, I don't do the work that I used to, so I can't complain too much. I can't complain anyway, today we're going to continue along with our journey. Um, last time we spoke to helen and stewart talking about genomics and how they make their breeding decisions. So we've obviously made our breeding decisions, but now it's time for those cows to carve. But we want to make sure we do the right thing to get those cows up and going as quickly as possible, and undoubtedly we have an effect on the calf as well. So this time we're going to talk about transition. So any thoughts on that from yourself, sarah.
Sarah Bolt:I, I was gonna say it's such an important time, isn't it? Those, uh, those six weeks around that carving period, both before and after, just really making sure that, uh, that everything's right and we, we hear from don orders to some of the things that, uh, that could be a bit different to what we're currently doing definitely, definitely.
Andrew Jones:It's a bit bit of a whistle stop tour through a lot of the different systems. So obviously, if people want to know a bit more, then I suggest you talk to your advisor or reach out to ourselves, but otherwise, yeah, let's go talk. Transition. This podcast has been brought to you today by Tune the Cud Ltd, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, our signals, advice and training, along with ROMS mobility scoring. For more details on these and other services available, please visit our website, wwwtunethecudcom, or email us directly on nutrition at tunethecudcom. Email us directly on nutrition at tunethecudcom. Tune the Cud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website, wwwtunethecudcom, or email us directly on training at tunethecudcom, or email us directly on training at tunethecudcom. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones and I'm Sarah Bolt, and welcome to the Tune the Cud podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.
Sarah Bolt:Farmer, advisor, processor and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.
Andrew Jones:We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.
Sarah Bolt:We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself can it be done differently?
Andrew Jones:Listen to us speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise.
Sarah Bolt:Subscribe and listen to episodes for free on your favourite podcast platform.
Andrew Jones:Sign up to our website wwwchewingthecudcom for podcast notifications, so you never miss an episode and links to our socials, including instagram.
Sarah Bolt:Chewing the cud podcast. All one word and remember no g or email us direct on podcast at chewingthecudcom if you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support, and that's it.
Andrew Jones:Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back to Tunicard Podcast and with us today to discuss transition diets is Donald Lawson. Hello, donald, how are you going?
Donald Lawson:I'm doing great, andrew, andrew and yourself.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, not too bad. Thank you, not too bad. So I've been wanting to do a podcast on transition management for quite a while and it was just trying to find the right guests to speak to us. One of the reasons was and I'm sure, donald, you'd be the same I mean, I've been on farm and I've seen some absolutely criminal transition diets.
Andrew Jones:And we're not just talking diets, we should also talk about the environment as well. I mean, I guess that's a question for later. You know what's the heat stress we've had recently done on transition cows. But I mean, I've been to farms where they've got 20 cows in the transition pen but only feed space for five. Or one farm was telling me that, oh, I got lots of ketotic cows and I look at the diet and he was feeding about two. Was it 260? No, not two. Yeah, 260 to 280 megajoules of energy to his transition cows and he wonders why he's got ketotic cows and just all sorts of things like that. So I just thought we'd we'd talk about that. But before we do, donald, just give us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.
Donald Lawson:At the moment I'm working for. I work for Premier Nutrition, so I'm in head of the ruminant team at Premier Nutrition. I've been doing that for 15 years now, and previous to that I worked with a number of feed compounders, so I've basically always I've been doing dairy nutrition for a very long period of time. Your viewers can't see my grey hair, so they'll just have to take my word for it.
Sarah Bolt:None of us are getting any younger, if only you're well known in the industry, donald.
Andrew Jones:I expect most people know all about the gray hairs anyway, so you're all right, yeah, you can always.
Donald Lawson:You can always support me at a conference, because you can see this gray hair man sitting down the front.
Andrew Jones:That's always me anyway, anyway, no, thank you for that. So, so, donald, yeah, I mean, we're here to talk about transition diets. I mean, what, what are some of the things you see on farm? Before we get in specifics of different diets, we'll talk a little bit about each of the different ones out there. You've obviously got some experience. I mean, let's be honest, you're working for premier, premier. You've got the tms scheme that you run. What's that? Transition management system or scheme? Yeah, just yeah, yeah, tms. So, yep, so just just talk us through some of the things that you've seen on farm that are, I suppose, bad. To start with that, then we should look at what we do to improve things well, we shouldn't.
Donald Lawson:I think there are lots of. I think it's the biggest challenge to the dairy system is that transition, is that transition period and, as you say, getting it wrong can be a complete train wreck as you go forward. And I think that's probably where the idea of tms and andrew pine and myself put tms together was. The idea was that when we got to see it and when you get to see it, at that point in time it's a train wreck. So basically the tms thing is trying to go back the way and record things so things don't get bad.
Andrew Jones:You know well I mean your chaos signals as well, aren't you? If I wear my chaos signals hat and I remember the dry to fresh course uh is, 80 percent of disease and problems start in that transition period and if we can get that right, we eliminate those problems.
Sarah Bolt:Yeah, just using that word risk. It's that risk period, isn't it? It's that alleviating risk wherever you can, yes.
Donald Lawson:And I think it's the key part, and basically it's like almost starting with what do we want from that transition period? So you know, we want a cow to calve without any problems.
Andrew Jones:we want a healthy calf, we want a cow that goes on to milk well, to have a good level of colostrum, we want all of those things, and if any of those things don't happen, as Andrew said, that's a huge frustration and it's a huge cost to the business as you go forward so I think sorry, I know I was gonna say I just thinking of an extreme example I remember having a discussion with somebody mid 90s I was probably a student on a farm visit at the time and, uh, back then obviously you had a bit of an interest in extended lactation, so you like carving every 18 months rather than every 12 months. And I remember saying to go, well, why are you thinking about doing it? And he went because I only have to carve twice in three years, not three times in three years, and that's when anything goes wrong. Is it carving, whether it's the mastitis, whatever it is, and it's only you know. Now, in later life, you appreciate some of what's it.
Donald Lawson:But it was just like, oh, okay, and that that was some of his reasoning for wanting to go for the extended lactations, because he eliminated that highest risk point within the cow's life. So your extended calving didn't catch on. For that very reason you lost. You had more low periods than you had high periods, so it didn't help.
Andrew Jones:I mean, we're talking 30 years ago and obviously you say that was a bit of a thing at the time, wasn't it? People were talking about it.
Donald Lawson:Yeah. So I mean I think we looked at when TMS put together the numbers and we can do it now as well for the numbers. For what does transition cost? Yep, then it'll be in that six, six pence number. Yep, so you know the average number, six pence. So if the person that two pence higher that or two pence lower than that, that two pence a liter is worth a lot of money to the average dairy herd. So just making those small improvements is important for people to focus on that area.
Andrew Jones:From that point, so how many cows are you looking at with tms these days?
Donald Lawson:we'll have a reduced number from where we were, but at one point we'd reached about 200 000. So a lot of cows so we still have the data there for the 200,000. That allows us to say, right, what happens if this, this or this. So, in other words, what's your ideal body condition score, what's your ideal room and fill? We can look at those numbers, but we probably have less than 100 hertz running now, so maybe 70 or 80 now still continuing to record and feed that data into the website.
Andrew Jones:Because I do remember Andrew telling me some of the bits and pieces that data into the website. Because I do remember andrew telling me some of the bits and pieces off there in the past, I think probably in 2018, when you had the heat then and it was like, wow, that that's massive. Uh, just the effect that I know temperature rise can make on these, these animals.
Donald Lawson:Yeah, um, and it is quite astounding, say, it's the little things that can make the difference sometimes yes, yeah, and, as you said, the good people, the people who are doing it well, it's attention to detail, in the same way that it says with everything else. But the best guys could probably do that for two pence versus the average of six. So that's a lot they've got. So they've got a lot of money to spend on facilities, which you say are one of the critical parts that can hold everything back. Um, and you know spend on nutrition. You know chopping the straw to the right length, doing all those things that could be seen as being cost but obviously have a huge benefit if they're being done.
Andrew Jones:Properly yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, so taking Sorry. Andrew Go on.
Sarah Bolt:So, taking a step back, for those of us that perhaps don't know about this TMS system, can you just sort of explain in layman's terms what it is and how it works?
Donald Lawson:So what it is is we have a series of assessors. We had a series of assessors. We've now replaced them with mostly companies that are doing it, so they'll have an assessor. So the assessor will visit farm and look at body condition, score room and fill lameness on dry cows and the same information for milking. If milk records are there, then that gives it much more value. So we then import the milk record. Data gives it much more value, so we then import the milk record data.
Donald Lawson:So between all those things we're getting a measure of what's happening and that allows us then to put a score against that and therefore you see what direction the herd is moving. So if it's going down the way, then you know my good, you know we'll have to go and do something, we have to take action. Or if it's improving, then what they're doing is making a difference. So it it's useful to prove to people that, yes, you should have three feet of feed space, because three feet of feed space makes a difference, because, look, your score's gone up. So it's a way of monitoring it, if you like. And, as I say from Andrew's point of view and from mine, it gave us some remote way of looking to see what was happening, rather than waiting to the end until it went bang into the wall and crashed.
Sarah Bolt:We have a way of looking for it in advance, so that makes a lot of sense. So, catching it an early warning system, it's an early warning system.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, yeah yeah, well, as you say, and it allowed you. Um, I don't think what I'm looking for, but it, yeah, allowed you to. Well, really it, it. It showed that what we've been saying through kale signals or whatever it was, was actually backed up by hard data.
Donald Lawson:By saying, as you say, if you have that three foot of um, uh, feed space for your transition kales, uh, the difference it can make yeah yeah and yeah, and those are basic things, but at least it then says, right, you do that you're not instantly going to see the effect, but the effect will come through in terms of milk yields, whether that's four-week milk yield or whatever. That benefit will come through the system as you go forward. So it was an easy way to it, wasn't't easy? It's maybe not the way to say it, but it was a simple way of us gathering that information. And you know, and we have lots of the data point number on it's huge in terms of how many data points we have. Um and again, we're still dragging information back out if we want to go and look at something so what were the highlights good or bad from all of that data?
Donald Lawson:the high. The highlight, the highlight is that. But I suppose one of the highlight you could well one of the highlights is that we um, that room and fill was so critical. The room and fill, which is a nice easy thing. So you're looking at that, that triangle on the side of the cow, the only place that you can actually see the room in. You're looking at that room and fell and saying that room and fell has to be as good as you possibly can and we're saying on the left side, yeah, the opposite side from where you'd show a cow.
Donald Lawson:I always tell people like, if you see a show cow, she's always turned the other way around. So the opposite side, um, and basically full, full cows have less problems. Empty cows have more problems. So that's a nice, easy way of thing to look at. You can see it instantly and it's really a difference between empty and full. So that was the key thing. And then, I think, when it came to body condition score, there's a recent paper published I don't know, maybe this year, maybe 2025, maybe late tail end of 2024 which looked at body condition score. So our work says three and a half is where the number needs to be, and there's an independent paper published from the us which basically shows peak. You know, the best milk yield is achieved at three and a half, less than three and a half, you know. So you go off. You go off the slope on one side and off the slope on the other that's interesting.
Andrew Jones:So you're saying three and a half because I mean they also used to say sort of three to three and a half for the freesian, and then when the holstein came along they all went, oh well, it's two and a half to three.
Donald Lawson:But you're saying back up, it still wants to be that three and a half it still wants to be that three and a half as she comes to at the point of carving. So, and as I say, there's, there's one, all our data shows that and two, there's a.
Andrew Jones:There's a paper just published I think it was late 24 which shows the same evidence and, to be honest, if I remember right back to the herd vision podcast uh, it was. It, was it something like over 3.14 or something? I can't remember the exact figure, possibly listen back, but it was. It showed that if it was below that, at carving um you had another like 10 days or something days to conception, it was. It was some figure like that. So that backs it up as backs it up as well.
Donald Lawson:Yeah and the difference in milk. Our difference in milk yield was maybe slightly smaller than the published paper, but the published paper was probably five or six kilos of milk difference between being a year three and a half and heading towards four, or being a year three and a half and heading down to two and a half. So that leaner cow definitely has a penalty in terms of of at least milk. But it's logic you would say probably fertility as well.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, definitely, Definitely. And I mean I guess maybe you don't want to embarrass anybody or what are some bad things you saw around and about when you were there?
Donald Lawson:I'd rather stay away from bad things, andrew, if it's okay no, that's the fact opportunities for change.
Donald Lawson:Yes, that's what I call opportunities for change, opportunities for change, opportunities for change. I think the most common one is one is feed space. I'm sorry, lack of feed space. Lack of feed space, feed space being and I appreciate that it's not always easy to build a pen People don't carve the same number of cows every month, you know that's not the way it works. They can carve almost. They could carve double or treble one month what they do to the next. So therefore, having those facilities set to allow that it's very difficult, isn't it? So I appreciate that. But but again, you know, we recorded when we were doing tms, we were recording how many cows were in the pen and again that that that predicted bad outcome. So basically, you overstock the pen, you get a bad outcome in the pen, and again that that that predicted bad outcome. So basically, you overstock the pen, you get a bad outcome in the next two, three weeks once comes a fresh cow.
Donald Lawson:So that chopping, chopping straw, chopped length of straw is just again, you know we need to chop it. If we're going to feed four or five kilos of straw, it needs to be chopped. And what length are you? Oh, you can't see me. But that, but that. But what's that? Half an inch. So yeah, but you need to have, you need to have it chopped if you don't have it chopped, and it needs to be chopped by something other than the wagon. You know, the feed wagon is not the thing of. Yeah, you don't want to do it that way and, as I say, there's all sorts of there's. Again, there's good work to show that you get a benefit. You get a benefit out of that, you get a benefit of intake, you get a benefit of room and fill. All those things are benefits.
Andrew Jones:So well, I was going to say, in the best will in the world, you and I, donald, could, or whoever it is could, give somebody the best nutrition, uh, best transition diet in the world, but if the environment and the facilities aren't there, it's not going to work, is it? I mean, I suppose that's ultimately why I got into cow signals and we've talked about, as you say, the um feed space is a big one and all the other things come into. But, like you say tub grinding straw, to me you, it's just not worth it unless you do it. The difference that makes is huge. As you say, tub grinding straw to me, it's just not worth it unless you do it. The difference that makes is huge, as you say, especially if you're doing five kilos or whatever, plus of chopped straw.
Donald Lawson:Yeah, it does make a huge difference, so that I'd say the pen size in terms of if it's a straw pack and feed space and straw chop length are the things that make a difference. The other one is the other one is having dry cows and hospital cows in the same pen. If I want to have a really big do you have a recommendation for size?
Sarah Bolt:do you have a recommendation for size? Do you have a recommendation there for size, Donald?
Donald Lawson:I'll come back and answer that back at the end. I'll answer that question pretending that you've asked me it. But yeah, having dry cows in a hospital pen just doesn't, you know, putting cows with lame cows or whatever that have foot rot or whatever in the same pen as, doesn't you know, putting cows with, you know, lame cows or whatever that have foot row or whatever in the same pen as a dry cow, just just because it's a straw pen, people just have one straw pen so they put those cows in with thingy. It's just crazy, so that's the other. If there is a bad thing, then that's one. That's my three bad things. If you like feed space, uh, chop straw and sharing the pen.
Donald Lawson:You know it should just be for dry cows and dry cows only and then there's some really don't get me wrong there's some really good dry or transition cow sheds being built. Now isn't there. You know. There are some really really good ones, very positive ones, but there are other ones where we have to try and figure out how do we? What could you change for as small amount of money as you possibly can, and that's not yeah, that's not easy, that's not easy.
Andrew Jones:But if we we've sort of talked about facilities, maybe if we sort of talk about some of the different um types of transition diets out there, and maybe we can discuss each of them one by one. Um, let's start, I suppose the way I've sort of put it. I know you've already seen that I've sent you a list of things we were discussing, but I mean, let's start at the top. Then, if we go for that, we say standing high dry stroke, dry cow nuts.
Donald Lawson:Thoughts on that I would say I've got less experience of that from a scottish north north of England side. I see the logic to it for, say, an autumn calving here to have that kind of system in place. My only concern is that we're not measuring intake. And if intake is one of those key things in terms of we want to drive that intake of the dry cow, so that basically. So I mean, is it something like that? Her intake in the dry cow, so that basically. So I mean, is it something like that?
Donald Lawson:Her intake it in the couple of days before she calves and her intake three weeks post calving is directly related to each other. So the more she eats pre-calving, the more she eats at three weeks. So do we really know what our intake is in that system and are we really controlling decal? Because obviously we don't know what she's going to eat. Is she going to eat leaf, is she going to eat stem? So I can see the logic to it and I think there'll be people who have make the system work. But that's my reservations on it. But, as I say, I haven't seen too much of it, so I can't really.
Andrew Jones:I'm only it's fair enough. It is more, as you say, an autumn carving thing, usually more, uh, how do I put this autumn in the sense of sort of seven and a half thousand liters. A typical sort of herd like that, um, as you say, with some standing hay, um, some dry cow nuts, and then just slowly uh, what's the word? Strip, graze them across the field. Um, and people do.
Sarah Bolt:It does work for some people yeah, I think giving them that fresh standing hay on a daily basis, that does um mean that you're getting those perhaps regular intakes a little bit better than perhaps just a set stocked area and and the like yeah, I suppose yeah, so it would be better than it'd be, better than just having a field of grass.
Donald Lawson:Yes, grass is going and you know, so you tend to have a field that's just set aside for them, so the grass doesn't grow. So this way you're actually making the intake better because you have x kilos of of standing hay to allow them to eat. But, as I say, so I can see that I've less experience, but it does. But it seems a logical system. I suppose it's trying to get that DCAD low because obviously on any dairy farm it's going to be difficult to find somewhere where you've not given it a lot of slurry and therefore have a very high potassium number against it.
Andrew Jones:So it's going to be difficult to do, but it does make logical sense to to do it, I think um, if we move on, then mag chloride in water, because I mean, obviously there are some systems where you can add it directly in well, either directly into the water supply I've forgotten the name of the company that does it or people just simply split a bag and stick it straight straight in the water. Trough comments on that rough and ready.
Donald Lawson:You know, I, as far as far, I suppose it's very, it's very difficult because, yeah, I mean, if you've got like a dosatron system or something where it's going to put it in, I can see, I can see that being controlled, I can see that working. I don't see any difference from that compared to adding the material into the TMR. But if you've not got a TMR, then that's obviously the way to do it.
Donald Lawson:Taking a 25 kilo bag and putting holes in it and throwing it in the trough gives me the jitters because obviously the concentration is going to be really, really high at the beginning and very low at the end. So how do we make sure we're getting the right amount, if you like? But, as you say, that does work. I've got people who do this and it does work. And if it stops or reduces the risk, then it's worth doing, isn't it? So if this stops one or two cows getting milk fever, then it's worth doing. It could be a bit more detailed so I can see the dose. The dose, the dosing system seems really, seems really useful, and that would be a way forward, I think.
Donald Lawson:But putting a 25 kilo bag into the trough is is a bit rough. So what happens if they don't drink it? What happens if they don't drink it? So you don't have any, you know. So that that's that you don't. So if it's enough to put people, if it's enough, if it's enough material to put them off drinking, then we're actually going back the way, aren't we?
Andrew Jones:we're not that can be the problem sometimes, isn't it? Because mag chloride can uh, what's the word taint, I suppose is the best word the water, so that then it that there isn't the intakes yeah, and I have, and I have seen.
Donald Lawson:You know it doesn't fit into the category of bad things, but I have seen someone where there was a typo and instead of someone putting 100 grams of magnesium chloride into the TMR, they put one kilo a cow. Okay, now you know one of these life lessons, right. So, yeah, day two cows still hadn't touched it day three.
Donald Lawson:They decided, right, there's definitely something wrong with this. So obviously and you know I was trying to figure out now you couldn't smell my chloride, you couldn't do anything, but just you know, so it's got a 10 time factor there and that basically stopped. I mean that probably uh, I don't know 25 kilos or 30 kilos of tmr multiplying it by 10, and you just, yeah, it was crazy, they were standing rolling their heads off by day two, so something had to be done.
Andrew Jones:But just show you how bad that can be well, I was going to say it sort of moves on to a partial decaf because I mean, let's be honest, most people do then feed, as you say, mag chloride in a TMR, and you've obviously mentioned that example. I mean, I suppose usually you'd put a limit of what? 150?. You could go up to 200 grams, but then you're starting to affect the palatability could go up to 200 grams, but then you're starting to affect the palatability.
Donald Lawson:Yeah, yeah, I would say. I would say sort of max to max 250, but then obviously the partial decap. You have to decide what's your, what's your definition of partial decap yes is your partial?
Donald Lawson:are we talking? Is it less than 150, is it less than 50? Or are you using ph? Well, you're not measuring ph, so you maybe don't know, but your dcad number is is is what you should be measuring it on. So the question is where do you, where do you, where do you draw that number? I would say less than 100, but people, other people go less than 200 for and call it a partial dad. So the number is a bit yeah, definitely, but it does work. As you say. It would be the most common system out there.
Andrew Jones:Yes, and I should say that to do that, really you need to do a mineral analysis of all your forages, don't you? To do that? And that's the one thing that people miss. And sometimes even I would argue, water analysis too, because I mean, I I can definitely think of an example I think I've probably mentioned it before of someone not too far away from me and saw, father, I was doing something completely different, and he goes oh, we always get transition cow problems. We always lose cows with milk fever, get them every year.
Andrew Jones:We've done this, we've done that. We've had every man and his dog look at this, vet, mineral specialists, all sorts, and we can't sort it. And we're driving around doing something else. We're just taking some forage uh, fresh grass samples to forage forage actually and, um, we were just talking, I said, and he something I said so you're telling me you're not on mains water? He went no, no, no, we're on bore water, right, when did you test it? Well, that's not going to make a difference, is it? I said it could very well make a difference. So, luckily, I had a bottle in the back of the car. We went and tested it and I can't remember what it came back as, but it came back in whatever was high and the outcome of that was now his transition.
Andrew Jones:Cows go on mains water and I remember that very summer then, because they were autumn calving, I saw Father at two local shows and both times he came up to me and said thank you so much, thank you so much. We've had milk fever but we haven't lost a cow. We have not had a cow go down. You know they've been sort of subclinical almost compared to what they used to be. We haven't lost any cows. So I'd argue it's one of the biggest things a lot of people don't consider is the water supply as well, because that can have a huge difference.
Sarah Bolt:I'm going to add one in there as well, particularly in this really dry weather, that actually the boreholes, the mineral analysis in those boreholes, can be changing as well. So actually during a really wet period or during a really dry period, it's really important to test that water, if that's what the dry cows are having.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, exactly, if it's dry it will be more concentrated. If it's wetter it will be less concentrated. And you say it can all have an effect on things. So but, as you say, partial decab is probably the most common. Are there alternatives to mac chloride for doing it, donald, or is it anyone on my work?
Donald Lawson:um, ammonium chloride would be used as well, right, um? Or you could go for some of the sulfate, so you could use magnesium sulfate. So there are a variety of sources that could be used. Yep, you probably find that ammonium chloride would be the one most often used in compound feed, rather than mag chloride, because mag chloride if you've seen a bag of mag chloride, I think it's, I think the word is hydroscopic, so it basically absorbs water, but it has, it's. It's about seven, seven, seven molecules of water attached to the my chloride anyway, and once you've opened the bag it just becomes a lump of concrete. So it's not very, you know, I think they could do it in blends, but maybe not doing compounds. So therefore they tend to use ammonium chloride. They could do it in blends, but maybe not do in compounds. So therefore they tend to use ammonium chloride. So ammonium chloride works just as well, maybe probably off the top head has a high, slightly higher dcad number against it. So you could do, you could do that.
Donald Lawson:Um, the question, the question is weird. As I say, where's that number? Where's that number? So I think we touched on, we've talked, we've talked about calcium, or we've been talking about calcium pre the discussion and there's certainly some stuff where, if you were slightly minus, so if you took your DCAD to say minus 10 or minus 20, it's that partial DCAD, you have to make up your mind, but that adding calcium gives you a benefit. Adding calcium gives you gives you a benefit. Yeah, so where that number? Where that, where it sits in that drift between plus 100 and minus 50, whereas whereas total dcad or full dcad would go to much lower numbers. It could be 120 or 150, but just below that zero number seems to be that you could get a response from putting calcium in there. So it's a very, it's a thing, but, yeah, it's the most common system, um, but, but sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, because again, all those other things round about you or not it tends to be used without mineral analysis, to be honest, doesn't it? Yeah, is that what you think?
Andrew Jones:uh, I've got to be honest, if I'm doing it or have done it, I always make sure there is a mineral analysis done, because otherwise, but you're right, there's plenty that do it without but you are really finger in the air, taking a guess, and most people then probably put it at the higher rate, um, just to cover themselves without actually knowing what's there. Uh, but I'd say you're potentially affecting palatability. I mean, you've said you might go 250 max, over, a sort of gone all to max and felt uncomfortable, really anything over 150, because it normally starts affecting palatability.
Donald Lawson:Yeah, I mean, I think it's like all these systems. What you're trying to do is find the lowest DCAD forage that you can. First and foremost, whether you're going partial or whether you're going total, you just go and say, right, which is the lowest. So it might be whole crop, it might be maize. You know those would tend to be typically lower DCAD than grass silage. So therefore you look for that. Can you do that first and then add your d-cad source? Because, again, your d-cad source is going to be okay. My chloride's not an expensive material but it's going to cost money to do and the less of them that you add, the better. Realistically, it's trying to build your diet around to get low d-cad before you start and then add in your anionic salts afterwards well, as you mentioned forages, let's talk about grass.
Andrew Jones:I mean, you could, uh, you know, as you say, that's got a higher value. You obviously want it to be unslowied ground, isn't it? Um, the grass size and I mean the ironic, I don't know if that's the right word we've been pushing, the industry's been pushing for better quality silage, better quality size, better quality silage, which is actually, if your transition cash, you could probably do with not such good silage, can you, if you are feeding them, grass silage?
Sarah Bolt:again, I think this year, perhaps with it the grass going to seed quite early, perhaps, um, some second cuts um might be, uh, might be, of that lower, lower quality that might actually be doing.
Donald Lawson:Do quite a good job this year, potentially yeah, I think that would be, that would be possible. But then then we've got the worry that people say when they went to pre-test grass for first cut, they could see. They could see the fertilizer on the ground so that fertilizer may have come through the system or the slurry may have come through the system, so we actually get that with second cut. I don't know the answer to that yet. I've not well, I know to see where it's coming to.
Andrew Jones:Yeah one guy, I think. If I remember right, he basically just keeps a field or two or whatever it happens to be of permanent pasture, that he effectively makes low input and he uses that for his transition. So then he's not not got those issues to worry about yeah, and I think that's.
Donald Lawson:But we've all seen, we've all seen dcad for grass at what? 600 plus 600 plus 700, which is almost impossible to get down to. Even to get partial dcad, even to get under 100, it's kind of very, very difficult. So you have to feed a lot of straw or you have to feed a lot of. You have to find an alternative forage, but yeah, if you've got somewhere to put. But the problem is where do you put that stuff that you have these couple of fields yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah or a small pit.
Donald Lawson:So but, yeah, it's a sensible thing to do to try and make as low-decaf stuff as you can and again, avoiding slurry is your key part.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, definitely. But as we talked about, I guess really next thing is probably full decaf. Then yeah, I mean, a lot of people are put off by the idea because they have this idea in their head. They've got to run around with what am I looking for?
Donald Lawson:litmus paper taking pH, taking urine tests and measuring pHs, yeah, but I suppose does that mean it's work. Is that work? Is that time, Is that money? Is it I mean because overseas.
Andrew Jones:I mean I gather like the US, and that like a full decab is more the way to most people go, isn't it?
Donald Lawson:yeah, I would say most of the most, of the most. The us one seems to be that way. So, um, people, people have the urine testing being done by a vet tech, for example, rather than have to do it themselves.
Donald Lawson:So therefore, the cows are locked up and then and then we um test them so you can test your ph? Um. But the benefits of it are huge in terms of you can do that. So you're looking to be maybe, say, minus 150 dcad rather than your plus 100 for partial um, but in terms of fertility, milk um, all those things will give you a positive for going for that minus DCAT, which is why the Americans have been doing it for this length of period of time.
Andrew Jones:I guess it's a little bit more effort, but all the research has shown that there are a lot of benefits from it, doesn't it?
Donald Lawson:Yeah, yeah, and I mean there's big, big, big's big kick in terms of milk. And then obviously there's lots of papers now in terms of showing, if you're going to do that, so basically you're acidifying the cow to pull that extra calcium out so that it's there and available to the system when she calves. So basically, if you've done that, then it makes logical sense that you should then put the calcium back in Because you've done that. Then it makes logical sense that you should then put the calcium back in Because you've pulled it out of the system. So the papers now are saying what we've got is, if you put calcium in, so we put, say, 1.5% calcium into the diet so that's about 175 to 200 grams of calcium on a 12.5 to 14 kilo dry matter intake that you get more milk and you get better dry matter intake and, as I say, you can actually get that at minus 20 as well as you get it at minus 150.
Donald Lawson:So, um, I think for a little, for a little bit of work and a little bit of effort, um, and getting cows to pee is not easy. I have tried. You need to have your trainers on so that you can run up and down the lines behind them, or you get yourself. What you then need is a piece of alkethane pipe with, like the kids go fishing nets, the little kiddies fishing nets.
Donald Lawson:So you have a wire at the end and you have the bottom of a squash bottle and then that way your arms are longer, because if you're like as short as me, your arms not as long as andrews are like. So you can't, can't get it, so you have to have something. You can go that way and that way and then collect your ph so you can do it well, I mean it's not quick and it's not easy like I used to have a vet in north queensland.
Andrew Jones:I don't know how he did it. He used to have a you'd have a cow in a crush forever and he could just tickle them just underneath thought of the vulva and may compete. And I have tried to do that so many times myself. I cannot do it, but he could just tickle them and then, yeah, that's it. They would be gone.
Donald Lawson:If you could do that, it's easy I don't think I want a career as a cow tickler. So I admit the same as you. I admit the same as you that I can't really do it, I don't like. So whether I could do it or not, I'm still not telling you like, because obviously then I don't want to kill you as a cow tickler. So, yeah, so, but, but, but it can, but it probably might take me. I don't know if cows, if you can get cows to come to that, if you lift cow, if cows come out the cubicles and go to be fed, then generally speaking you're going to get more cows peeing at that point.
Andrew Jones:So yeah, when they stand up.
Donald Lawson:When they stand up, they're going to pee, so yeah you can't.
Andrew Jones:It's no different, is it?
Donald Lawson:no, the first thing you do, yeah, so if you're there at the right time, you can do it. So it's a little bit of effort but, as you say, all of the data really shows that there's a strong milk yield response, there's a fertility response. The benefits are huge.
Andrew Jones:I should say really we haven't explained what actually DCAB is. We've talked about partial and full DCAB. We probably really ought to explain what it is to everybody. Haven't explained what actually d-cab is. We've talked about partial and full d-cab. We probably really ought to explain what it is everybody we band these terms around, don't we like? We all know go on, donald, explain to us what d-cab is so d-cab.
Donald Lawson:Well, so you could go d-cab or d-cad, take your, take your thing, it doesn't matter. So d-cad is the dietary cation, anion, balance or difference whether you go for b or d. So basically that's going to be primarily your uh for for dairy cows, primarily your potassium and sodium are on one side. So these are your, these are your positives and your negatives are your chlorine and your negatives are your chlorine and your sulfur. So it's the balance between these four elements, if you like, that makes the difference and therefore, obviously, that's then multiplied up by the total dry matter intake to give you a, a score, um, in milli equivalents per kilo of dry matter. So um. So that's why we're using chlorides to stop milk fever, if you like, because we're trying to balance the potassium, and the potassium is the thing that makes that dcad high. When you look at grass silage, as opposed to other forages, because it tends to get more slurry, accumulates that potassium and you could have two and a half or three percent potassium numbers in terms of grass silage which drives that dcad number high.
Andrew Jones:So it's schoolboy chemistry, I think yeah, well, I know, when I was in north queensland the tropical grasses were all naturally high in potassium, so it did make life a bit difficult, to the point that when we had a drought up there one year which you wouldn't believe people started feeding bananas and of course they're high in potassium as well. So there was a bit of a notice went around to everybody just be careful you don't overdo it with potassium, even your milkers sort of thing, because the the naturally high grasses, tropical grasses and these bananas are obviously high in potassium. But I know we're getting off.
Donald Lawson:So I think the other thing I suppose from DCAD that's maybe worth mentioning is for a dry cow. We want the number to be low For a milking cow. We want the number to be high, so we want a positive number in the 250s, 300s, 400s for milking cows, especially when we have heat stress.
Andrew Jones:And if I remember right, it can also affect your fats as well, can't it? If you've got a low DCAB when you're milking diet, is that right? I think I've had that before, yeah so that will be.
Donald Lawson:So. You're looking for a positive, you're looking for a positive number for milking cows and a negative number for so. Grass silage is positive for milking but negative for you know, but an issue when it comes to feeding to dry cows, but, um, we've talked about that.
Andrew Jones:We talked about calcium. I mean, you mentioned the one and a half percent um I sent you I don't you probably already seen it somewhere, but I sent you a paper the other day, didn't I, of some work that's literally new out of the states that is showing that we've been feeding calcium levels too low with a d-cab diet, wasn't it? And by feeding everything up to is it two and a half percent? I think it was um or uh, that, uh, there are benefits to having higher levels of calcium during that d-cab diet yeah, and, as I say, that's just as we said earlier.
Donald Lawson:If you're acidifying or to pull that calcium out of a system, realistically you have to put it back.
Andrew Jones:So that's where this is.
Donald Lawson:And, as I say, all of that stuff is showing increased milk yield, increased dry matter intake. So you know which is again what we're looking for.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, and it was also. Was it improved uterine health?
Donald Lawson:Yes, yeah, so that's the stuff out of Illinois, I think, isn't it? So that's from that. So again, the health thing as well, because we're altering that calcium status and the calcium status has a huge difference. So to take us down a rabbit hole we might never get back out of, you know, calcium. The calcium is that if you look at day, you know in the past we've looked at day one calcium.
Donald Lawson:So the vets would have looked and say there's a cow, take her calcium, that calcium is too low. But as if you look all the stuff that's come out of jess mccart's lab, I think at cornell, and basically what she's saying is you have to look at day four calcium and it's that day four calcium is the one that makes a difference. So if the cow is is normal calcemic at day four, then that's fine and actually they've subdivided these cows up and basically one that's low on day one and normal on day four is the cow that gives you the most milk because, she's trying to get into that system to try and produce more milk, so the demand's on it, whereas one that stays low goes the other way.
Andrew Jones:Yeah as I say, it makes sense because, to be honest, you in day one, there's still a lot going on. We've just gone from well, literally turning the taps on and everything's still trying to sort itself out from having a transition diet to a milking diet. The minerals are all changed, everything's still up in the air and um and not settled down. But we're on calcium, so let's move on to the next one calcium binders. I mean the most well-known one, that everyone knows is exelit.
Donald Lawson:Yeah, thoughts on calcium binders well, really, actually they've repositioned themselves, and that they're not calcium binders, they're phosphorus binders okay so they are and that's what they do.
Donald Lawson:That's what their mode of action is. So obviously there's a set. You know, once you put too much phosphorus into a cow then you can actually cause milk fever. So you've got to be careful that a high phosphorus dry cow mineral doesn't do that. So if you look at all the stuff now, they are definitely a phosphorus binder For cows that grass. If you've got cows that graze in and you want to control milk fever, perfect.
Andrew Jones:Well. I was going to say or high grass silage diets, if that's all you've got. Then they say, if you've got high grass forages, high grass silages, they are a great product for that, aren't they?
Donald Lawson:Yeah, yeah, but I think the problem we have is there's a bit of doubt as to what they bind.
Donald Lawson:So do they bind just calcium. Do they just bind calcium? I think they definitely bind mag magnesium. So basically, if you're doing a diet, you want to make sure that they've got the mag numbers on the top side of where the range is for that as well, because they will bind a bit of mag. But you know, I think in the in, in the situation where you need an answer and you need an answer quick, then basically that's, they'll give you an answer quick and they'll sort the problem for you, whereas if you're going to take a go and get a mineral analysis done and then come back with a diet, that takes time, doesn't it? Whereas a zeolite binder goes in, does what it says on the tin it'll stop milk fevers. There's maybe slight disappointment in terms of peak milks on the back of it, so it's not perfect, but in terms of stopping milk fevers, that's what it says on the tin. So so it's not perfect, but in terms of stopping milk fevers, that's what it does, what it says on the tin.
Sarah Bolt:So I was just thinking I just wonder how many people realize where, where these products came from originally I was going to say, because sometimes you hear of it sort of going in a diet as standard and what you're saying there is that actually it's almost an emergency situation use it, but don't sort of put it in there as a as a sort of standard. This is going to be the right thing for for my cows in this period of time yeah, I think, I think, um, yeah, this is my opinion because you're asking me.
Donald Lawson:So my, my opinion is that you should be able to find another way to sort your problem. But if you want to solve a problem quick, there is no doubt about it. That's what it is. Now that, um, there's, there's some work from the state showing that milk, milk suffers on the back of it, so that we, just, we fail. We fail for cows.
Donald Lawson:Cows don't adapt to that calcium quick enough after calving. You know, so they've been, they've been bound up to that point in time. So, day one by day four, are we still affecting calcium in the calcium in the cow's blood at that point? Now, um, these are observational studies rather than actually full-blown trials, if you like. So, basically, what they've done, they said we would, as herd on that law and that herd on the other, rather than take 20 cows and put 20 cows in one and 20 cows on the other. So it's all for initial studies, but there is definitely data. They are showing that there's a little issue with day four, um, calcium numbers and milk yield as we go forward. But in terms of fixing that problem, it fixes the problem. You won't get any milk fevers, whether you maybe get slightly less milk than you would like, but you know, if it works in terms of milk fevers and we're not losing cows and somebody wants something simple, then that's what you should do and, as we already said, they're very good for high grass diets, aren't they?
Donald Lawson:yeah, yeah, cows and grass, it's a nice easy way to sort the thing, because you can't do anything else, can you? You can't. You can't give her, you can't give her a d-card diet, you can't add straw to her diet, she just has grass. So if she's going to have just grass and you've got milk fever, then I think that's. That's the product for you.
Andrew Jones:To be honest, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, moving on to the next one, good old gordy jones and his goldilocks diet if you know that well, let's just say gordie's a brilliant. What's the word? Orator? Is that the right word? Oh yeah, oh he's brilliant, he's fantastic. Fantastic.
Donald Lawson:I do think they should pay credit to the fact that it was Jim Drackley that did the work, right? So I think if you look back, you'll find it was Jim Drackley's stuff at Illinois that did the work, but never stuff at Illinois that did the work, but never mind, but never mind. So, yeah, the Goldilocks diets I would use them every day of the week. Works, the works, works. Brilliant. Good room in fells. Uh, that straw has to be chopped. Um, I'm, I'm not, I would think that what. And actually, if you look at what Jim Drackley says, it's don't get obsessed with your energy level, you know, don't say right, it has to be nine and a half or has to be 10. What he's saying is you want um, five and a half kilos of forage NDF, so somewhere between five and a half and six, probably not more than six and probably not less than five.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, I've probably always worked on a minimum of six, I, six and probably not less than five. Yeah, I've probably always worked on a minimum of six because I, I sort of I'd heard gordy years ago and then I don't know, sort of can't remember what happened, just sort of forgot about it or whatever. And then someone said to me, oh, and then I watched one of the he's on youtube, isn't it probably him talking, uh, something, and then wrote down what his criteria is and it's like, oh, I'm doing that pretty much 90 of that without realizing it, as you say, the six kilos of ndf, 1200 grams of protein and various other bits and pieces. And it's like, oh, I'm kind of doing that already. As you say, I completely agree, that'd be the basis that I do, for any diet would be a goldilocks diet, with tweaks depending on the farm, what that?
Andrew Jones:Sometimes it's what they want. They want to use a calcium bite sorry, phosphate binder or they want to use dcat or whatever it have partial dcat, whatever it happens to be. But that, to me, has always been my basis. Is it or is now being my basis is is that goldilocks diet? And I've done that for a number of years and I think it works really really well yeah, I mean, I think, there's no doubt about it, as I see you, you've got, you need a dry matter intake.
Donald Lawson:That's going to be, you know so. So basically, I'm normally saying right, you're going to have four kilos of concentrates, you're going to have four and a half kilos of forage, you know, and you're going to have four kilos of straw as dry matters to give you 12 and a half as a minimum kilos of dry matter. But people are eating, you know, people are doing 14, 15 kilos on that kind of diet.
Donald Lawson:I've had some like that definitely yeah I mean the metabolizable protein, that 1200 grams that you touched on in terms of our target for metabolizable protein, um is again one of the things that's not normally hit. You know people are trying to and I would say that two kilos of dry cow nuts is not as unlikely to give you 1200 grams of mp unless you've got lots of maize going into the diet and obviously you get a bit, you get the starch from the maize.
Andrew Jones:So it's trying to get that 1200 grams of mp as your as your target and if you win them and then if you want to go further than that, go amino acid yeah, well, I was going to say that brings on nicely to some, to moving on from that, because I know, um, like, I did a trial on some amino acids was that five years ago now? And at the time we were like, okay, where do we set our amino acid level for the transition cows? And it was very much finger in the air and the advice we got was just half what the milking cow is. But I know, last year I heard uh, what's her?
Andrew Jones:Phil cordozo speak and it has changed, hasn't it? And it's like, oh, we were feeling a bit low compared to what we were. You know, that was the advice five years ago. That's where the research was. But I mean, that was when we were talking what 3.1 to 1 or 3 to 1, which of course, is now completely changed. I'll come down. But yes, I mean the amino acids that they now have a more defined figure, don't they, as to where they should be.
Donald Lawson:If you're reading amino acids, yeah, so there is a defined. There's a defined um number there and I suppose if you're going to feed amino acids, then feeding it to dry cows which you're going to do it for three weeks or four weeks gives you your best return for your money. So, in terms of looking at lysine and methionine, that, that if you want to do amino acids and try it, that's where you would do it, because, yes, it's not going to be cheap, but it's cheap per cow because you're doing it for three weeks rather than doing it. And again, for milking cows, it's where do you cut it off? You?
Donald Lawson:know, you don't. You don't want to be doing it for a 200 cow or a 200, 200 to 250 day and milk cow, so it's finding someone that's got the ability to to split it. So, yes, there is a a defined number now for our metalizing and our methionine for dry cows, and that makes life simpler. We're not having to worry about ratios, we don't have to worry about anything else, it's just that's what the number is. So it makes it simple but it is interesting.
Andrew Jones:I had a client that that's what we they. They had a system and I'll be honest, they used a binder and it worked. And, uh, when I started working with them, so they want to stick with it. Fine, um and uh, you know, didn't get a lot of milk fevers. But then for the year afterwards we were, we started trying the amino acids. The comment from them was okay, it's anecdotal, they just seemed to completely eliminate any problems of the fact that we got the methionine in there, balance the diet as it was. At the time again, this was before these latest figures uh, and it just really did seem to make that difference for those cows during transition period. So I mean, I I would like you say, if you're going to do it, that's the time to really make the most of it yeah, and it does.
Donald Lawson:You know, there's lots of, there's lots of, there's lots of data to show the benefit, whether that benefits fertility, or whether that benefits milk yield or, as as you say, whether it benefits health. And obviously you know we started a discussion saying that that transition period that move from dry to milking it's where 80% of our disease issues are. So if we can improve health, that's the point in time we want to improve health, isn't it? Yeah?
Andrew Jones:definitely.
Donald Lawson:That's our target area. So if we have to spend a bit of money at that point in time, it makes sense. So I think you know from a from a premier nutrition point of view, if somebody says, right, where are we putting amino acids, I would say that 80 of the amino acids that we're putting into, whether whether it's going into minerals or whether it's going into concentrates, is going into the transition period and it's maybe 20, you know. So maybe 75, 25 at best, because having a having a group of cows that you could then do it on the milking side isn't as easy, because not many people have a fresh group or a specific group that might run to 100 days that you could justify the cost of amino acids against I mean we're talking health benefits, choline, I mean.
Andrew Jones:Most people still think of choline as the fat cows, um, but I know there's been some research last year or two that show it has a lot of other health benefits as well yeah, I would recommend choline, would rec would recommend as well.
Donald Lawson:Um, again, it's one of those. It's one of these things like a lot of these things that we feed for that six week period or whenever, that 100 day period of transition and we get. We get a kick for milk that goes on thereafter. So you know, we can feed it, we can feed it to the up to the end of the first month, but we still see an increase in milk that continues to the end of the 305 or 325 day period. So in terms of return for your money, it seems to be what you can. What you invest in in that transition period gives you a response that goes all the way through the rest of the lactation. So I think we could argue that's the same for facilities. We could argue that's the same for some of these additives that we put in. That gives a response as we go through Now something.
Andrew Jones:I don't know a lot about the B vitamins. Any thoughts on B vitamins?
Donald Lawson:I think there's maybe less data there. There is some information on some rumen-protected B vits that have been tried. I think the data's not as strong as it would be for, say, for choline. Choline, I think, is a B-vit as well, but again it's not as strong information there. So if we can do something that's relatively cost-effective then it would maybe help, but I think there's less. There's less information there. The choline has, you know, a folder full of papers that will show you you're going to get a response, so you know if you're going to spend your money. That's what you'd spend your money on, something that's going to give you a three or four to one return on your money yeah.
Sarah Bolt:Do you think that maybe that b vitamin is going to be the next, the next thing once the research has been done, or I think it'll be.
Donald Lawson:I think I think it's all these things in terms of what we do with that cow at that point in time.
Donald Lawson:And I think the next thing is going to be what, what effect that has on the calf, because the choline stuff has already started and looked and says, right, okay, what happens to the calf that's born from the cow that has choline um and there's some stuff on calcium, there's some stuff on calcium as well. So there's. So going back to that day four cow having a good calcium. If you then look at the day four cow with good calcium versus the day four cow with low calcium and look at her calf, then you see huge differences in health, huge differences in um, uh, passive transfer and huge differences in diarrhea, for example, or scour and calves. You see a difference which really blows my mind, because that calf didn't know that calf didn't know that cow was going to be hypocalcemic at day four, did she? You know? What point did that calf go? Oh right, you know, but it's there, you know, it's good data to show that difference once you get to.
Donald Lawson:So that calcium is, you know is a relatively cheap raw material and it has an effect on that calf. So choline has an effect on that calf. So I think it's all of these things that are then going to have an effect on the calf and the health. Well, generally speaking, the health of the calf as it goes forward is where that research focus is going to be, and just to go back and look at some of the stuff already done and see what effect that has like methionine has a benefit to the calf, doesn't it?
Andrew Jones:as moving forward things like that? Yeah, another one. I just thought of omega-3s. Any thoughts on omega-3s?
Donald Lawson:omega-3s, uh, more in terms of fertility, but obviously, as we're thinking about, the egg that's going to be fertilized at day 42 or day 49 has been produced back in the dry period. So, again, that's where our Amigo 3s do have a benefit in terms of improving the quality of the egg, if you like. But I think some of that's also been done by. The problem is, lots of these additives do the same thing, so it's trying to prise them apart and see, okay, which one's going to give us the best effect. But, yeah, the omega-3 would work from that point of view, because that's affecting egg quality. So therefore, whether that's fertility or reduction in early embryo loss, we would possibly get an improvement from that okay, okay, um, I've got to be honest with you.
Andrew Jones:I'm looking at the time and I'm thinking we've had a look.
Donald Lawson:I know, I know this is what you said at the beginning. You said this at the beginning you said don't worry about talking for an hour, It'll not be a problem.
Andrew Jones:But I mean really we've had a very whistle-stopped tour of all the different types of transition darts. You could do and we could really spend a whole episode on each one if we really wanted to dig down into them and get really technical etc. But it's hopefully the idea of this is just to give people a flavor. All the different ones out there talk about some of the real positives, because I say, because I've I've seen some terrible ones, um, and it's just to make people think about always what people think about what they're doing and can it be done differently, can they do better. But I mean really I hate to say it because and because I say I know we could just keep going, but really any last words of wisdom from yourself, donald, I mean really I suppose you've touched on the three things you would do, but what, what would you do and what advice would you give to people when they're looking at transition diets?
Donald Lawson:when, when it comes to transition diets, my normal, my normal phrase is I don't care what it costs. Does it work?
Andrew Jones:Yeah.
Donald Lawson:So basically, don't be, don't be, don't be afraid to spend, don't don't, for goodness sake. If the system works, if everything works, cows get you producing enough milk. Don't go looking for savings and cost in your dry cow diet.
Andrew Jones:It's the one place you should spend the money, isn't it?
Donald Lawson:Yeah. So you know, I don't care. If whoever's trying to sell you something different, don't buy it because it's cheaper. If you've got a problem, then everything's on the table. If it's not, if everything's working and somebody tells you they can save you 10 pence on a dry cow diet, don't fall for that one like, because it takes a lot of time to get everything working and everything all lined up. So if it's working, leave it.
Andrew Jones:Leave it the way it is yep, yeah, sarah, I know you've been sat there quietly listening I've been taking it all in.
Sarah Bolt:I've been definitely taking it all in and I think that my what I've taken from from what I've been sat there quietly listening, I've been taking it all in, I've been definitely taking it all in and I think that my what I've taken from from what I've been listening to is that actually we've got to remember that we're setting our cows up for their next lactation during this transition period and therefore it's really important that we we measure and monitor what's going on with them and then we can make some informed decisions. And we've heard today about various different things that perhaps we could bring in to make some of those changes, those opportunities for change that we discussed earlier, whether that's calcium, amino acids, choline, potentially B vitamins. But actually if we don't measure and monitor, we won't catch it early and we'll then be sort of that emergency, sort of first aid situation.
Andrew Jones:So I guess it's really measure and monitor so that you've got that early warning system and, yeah, maybe some small changes to for positive effect I think that's that's very well said, actually, because it's often that's where the bottleneck is on the farm, is that transition period, whether it's because there's not enough feed space or not enough lying space, or whatever it happens to be. As donald mentioned earlier, you know we can't build a shed for every cow. It's based on the average and sometimes there will be more than the average in there, and that's usually when you start to see some problems showing up. So no, that that is a very fair comment that, like all these things, if you can't quantify it, then you can't. Can't measure it, you can't quantify it, and if you can't quantify it, you can't do something about it. Um, so really, I'd like to thank donald for his time today. It's been absolutely brilliant.
Andrew Jones:As I say, I know it's a bit of a whistle top tour, um, but obviously if people want to know more about it, then obviously you know, reach out to us or whoever it happens to be to have these discussions. That's the whole idea of this is to make people think about what they're doing and maybe to prompt a discussion with whoever you get your advice from, um, to see if, if you've got problems, what can be done differently, what can be done better and it really, if you're going to focus anywhere in that lactation in that year of the cow's life, it's this transition period, isn't it? That that's when it it needs to be, because that, as you say, just sets up so much it can affect disease, it can just. Everything moving forward comes from that three weeks, and if you get that right then usually it sets you up for the rest of the year. So yeah, so on the back of that I'd like to say thank Donald, but otherwise it's a goodbye from me.
Sarah Bolt:It's a goodbye from me and lovely to meet you, Donald.
Donald Lawson:That's goodbye from me, and lovely to meet you, donald. That's goodbye from me.
Andrew Jones:Thank you very much thank you for listening to the tune, the cut podcast podcast for the uk dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of england and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of Tune the Cud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Tune the Cud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by Tune the Cud Ltd, visit wwwtunethecudcom. Thank you and goodbye.