ChewintheCud Podcast
The Team, based in the South West of England, explore their passion for cows and the dairy industry as they talk about a range of industry related topics.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com
ChewintheCud Podcast
Amino Acids: The Hidden Heroes of Heifer Health
Amino acids may be the most underrated nutritional tool for transforming heifer development and health on your dairy farm. In this eye-opening episode, Ken March takes us through his remarkable journey from East London to becoming a dairy nutrition specialist in West Wales, where his thirst for knowledge led him to the cutting edge of amino acid nutrition.
Ken shares results from a ground breaking trial comparing 100 calves on a standard diet against 100 calves receiving an amino acid-balanced diet from birth through first lactation. When salmonella struck both groups, only three calves died in the amino acid group compared to twelve in the control group—a dramatic demonstration of enhanced immunity. The treated calves grew faster (0.8kg/day versus 0.54kg/day), reached breeding weight earlier, and continued producing one litre more milk daily throughout their first lactation, even after both groups were managed identically without amino acid supplementation during lactation.
Perhaps most striking is the farm owner's observation that he couldn't distinguish between first-lactation heifers from the trial group and mature cows when viewed from behind in the parlour—their development was that impressive. This profound finding reinforces Ken's passionate belief that meeting animals' nutritional requirements from birth creates healthier, more productive cows.
The conversation challenges conventional wisdom about protein levels, with Ken sharing examples of herds achieving 39 litres on just 15.5% crude protein diets when properly balanced for amino acids. As Professor Gabriela Varga noted, "Cows do not have a crude protein requirement"—they require specific amino acids in the right proportions.
Whether you're struggling with health challenges in your replacement heifers or looking to optimise your feeding program, this episode offers practical insights into how precise amino acid balancing can transform your herd's performance, health, and ultimately your farm's profitability. Tune in to discover why meeting your animals' nutritional requirements isn't an expense—it's your most valuable investment.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can email us directly at podcast@chewinthecud.com
This is the Chewing the Cut podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listen to Around the World.
Speaker 2:Hello, and welcome to Tune it.
Speaker 1:Cut podcast my name is Andrew Jones and with me today is Sarah Bolt.
Speaker 2:How are you doing, sarah, I'm good. Thank you, andrew, and how are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I suppose we might as well talk about the weather, just get it over and done with, haven't we? I mean, let's be honest, how dry it is. I mean, I was in Cornwall a couple of weeks ago and they just seem to be the land of milk and honey at the moment. All that grass they've got down there, but nobody else seems to have got it.
Speaker 2:Well, everybody keeps telling me that oh, there's plenty of rain around, but certainly here we're, in my little corner of Somerset we've missed all of it. So at work the other day we we looked at the radar and it told us at 10 o'clock there was going to be some heavy rain, and again at five o'clock. Did we get either of them?
Speaker 1:neither well, exactly exactly, we're getting a lot of that and a little bit of rain we did get. A week or two ago it took ginger green on things and that was as good as it got. But anyway, anyway, today's episode, um, really interesting episode, I mean. Obviously you said we're on a little bit of a journey. We, we've, we've bred the cows, we've transitioned the cows. Yes, there's a couple of steps missing and, um, unfortunately that's for another day.
Speaker 1:But uh, today we're sort of looking at that post weaning phase, um and uh, talking about a trial that was mentioned in a podcast we did august last year with andrew harrison, um, about the use of amino acids in heifer rearing and the benefits this brings. And and I suppose really I would say that's what people need to start concentrating on amino acids is not necessarily just the production but the health benefits this brings. And it's more and more it's starting to show the health benefits if you can get those essential amino acids, the animal, the amino acids that the animals can't produce themselves in those diets, and the benefits those are bringing so it's really that attention to detail that you're you're describing there, andrew, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's not just protein, it's actually which amino acids are making up those proteins yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1:And, as you say, we're just seeing again, it's like everything, isn't it. You know we are, we are. The more we understand, the more we know, and it is it's those little things that can make the difference, and and this is a a great podcast with our guest, um and uh, so I hope you enjoy, but, um, yeah, there's also something quite special about this podcast, I believe, andrew.
Speaker 2:Do you want to share with us?
Speaker 1:yes, we were debating what to say about this, weren't we? Um it this, this is our 50th episode. Um, so, if you've been here since the beginning, thank you. And I mean obviously, thank you to neil for being part of this journey, but obviously sarah, who's now part of the journey as well, because it wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for them as well. But, yes, this is our official 50th episode, which is like wow, I can't believe we're here.
Speaker 2:I think that's absolutely awesome, Andrew, and really deserves that sort of well done and everything you've achieved with it. I think it's an awesome achievement how many podcasts actually make it to their 50th episode do you know what that thought was just crossed my mind?
Speaker 1:you, you read the intro and there's so many the vast majority don't make it past, is it 10 episodes or something? And here we are on on 50 and you know the numbers just keep growing. So, uh, you know, I was at, uh, was it the oh oh, the Premier Herd Day recently for Holstein and it was like met a few people. Oh yeah, we listened to the podcast. It's like okay, and no people I'd never even met. So you know it's out there and it's listening, so people are listening. So that's fantastic. And whilst we've still got, uh, more than enough episodes for this year, so next year's almost half done without even thinking about it but, anyway, anyway let's.
Speaker 1:Let's not worry about that. People are here not to listen to us talk about that. They're here to listen to today's episode, so here you go, enjoy it. It's a great episode with our guests. So let's talk about amino acids and heifer rearing. This podcast has been brought to you today by Tune the Cud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, our signals, advice and training, along with ROMS mobility scoring. For more details on these and other services available, please visit our website, wwwtunethecudcom, or email us directly on nutrition at tunethecudcom. Tune the Cud Ltd now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website, wwwtunethecudcom, or email us directly on training at tunethecudcom. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones and I'm Sarah Bolt, and welcome to the Tune the Cud podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.
Speaker 2:Farmer, advisor, processor and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.
Speaker 1:We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.
Speaker 2:We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself can it be done differently?
Speaker 1:Listen to us speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise subscribe and listen to episodes for free on your favorite podcast platform sign up to our website, wwwchewingthecudcom for podcast notifications, so you never miss an episode and links to our socials, including instagram.
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Speaker 2:If you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support. And that's it, enjoy today's episode.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome back to Ticard podcast. Today our guest is Ken March. Good morning, ken, good morning. How are you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, very well, thank you. Long drive, but well worth it.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure to finally meet you. We've been talking about this for a little while, haven't we? I mean, you were unfortunately unable to make last year as the originally planned, but here you are now. So, ken, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got to where you are today right.
Speaker 3:Well, east london are by birth, um, and moved up to west wales in 81. Yep, um, and it happened to be the era of when English people moved to West Wales. They were told to breed rabbits for meat. Yeah, and there was a number of them, and I happened to contact the company supplying the animal feeds, which was back in those days was Glowpin Animal Feeds from Somerset. Oh, I remember them, yeah, and I got the rights for distribution of animal feed for west wales, um, of which, apart from rabbits, because my father used to breed them back in his london I knew nothing about. Um, one of the rabbit breeders introduced me was a dairy farmer as well, uh, called die bunny.
Speaker 2:It's a bit of a rabbit theme you there. You couldn't make that up, could you.
Speaker 3:And we got on well. He had 100 cows and to me then that was an enormous amount of dairy cows and he said, look, if I can help you, say how about you? Because he lived about 50 miles away. I lived in West Wales, in Aberystwyth, where I still live, and he lived down in Carmarthen and he said come down. He said two days a week or two days every month initially and I'll take you around and introduce you to some dairy farmers Yep, which was really great. And I sold the cheapest animal feed there was. I used to actually advertise the prices in the local newspapers, not realising that in those days. You know, the ones that were a bit gentlemen, that were a bit slow paying, were the ones that I attracted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that lasted for 81 through to 84 when quotas came in. Yep, yeah, and Low Pen decided they wanted to. I was selling not a great deal of tonnage, about 3,000, 4,000 ton a year, and they decided they wanted to serve them direct.
Speaker 1:Right, they were shipping. From what are they? Illmünster, lopeng? Yeah, illmünster, that's correct.
Speaker 3:Illmünster, all the way up to Blimey. Well, by this time they'd built a mill. They started to build a mill in Crosshands, just outside Carmarthen Yep, crosshands, just outside Carmarthen. And they asked me if I initially would be meal manager or sales director. I had no experience in either field so that wasn't attractive. And they come 1st of April. They just wrote to all the contacts that we had and I'd been doing my own haulage, fortunately and included a price, put adverts in all the newspapers and they were selling at £10 a tonne, cheaper than I could buy it from before. Yep, yep.
Speaker 3:So I didn't know what to do and we had a port-a-bin cabin in a haulage depot just outside Aberystwyth. So one Saturday morning I was looking, I picked up Yellow P, yeah, yeah, and uh, uh, we sold 10 ton in may 1984. I always remember that for the month. Um, and I, I, yeah, where do you go? So I picked up the other pages, looked in and looked at animal feed mills and saw lloyds animal feeds on street, yep. So I phoned them. Yep, and they actually thought I was crackers Saturday morning and asked me to phone back Monday and I could speak to Alan O'Neill, bless him. I phoned back Monday. They asked me to come over on Wednesday. So Christine my wife because it's a family business went over on the Wednesday and that subsequently I actually thought we couldn't pay our bills and that's why we phoned them.
Speaker 3:Yes, but fortunately I took our bank statements, not knowing that Hal Lloyd David's father was, I think, one of the closest people that ever came. He never went to see Midland Bank then, or HSBC. They used to come and see him. Yeah, so that, and they only took a phone call to find out whether we were pucker or not. Yeah, and we were. Um, that was that was about. Must have been about may, june, june, july, um. So we, we struck a deal. I just went for the same products that I've been selling before, cheap and cheerful, until about October, and Gus Ferguson, the old BP man, mineral man. He asked me to go to Nantwich to have a look at minerals, have a look around and over.
Speaker 3:I went and I met Richard Knight yeah who I, yeah, I've worked with for a while. Uh, and I said to richard and I've met him before I said could you formulate, while I was going around, the best 13 mek you can? He went, what? So I said, um, what do you mean? I said I want the energy. He said I said, and I want the best product you can get. Anyway, two hours later we came back after going around and he gave me the formulation and it had 5% softening in and it was magic to me and it looked exactly what I wanted.
Speaker 3:Well, on the way back to Aberystwyth from now, which I called in at Lloyd's at Oswestry, met the nutritionists that they'd hired because I was asked, because they were mainly poultry. Then, yep, yep, but I kept pestering them, asking questions about nutrition. So by that time they'd hired Finley Ross from BP Beatums, who turned out to be the best mentor I could have had over the next 10 years, and he took the formulation. I think he was a bit upset that I asked somebody else to formulate something. He put it in the right origin, put it in the right engine, shut the door. He said I'll give you a ring. Anyway, the following day he did and he said yeah, it's a really good formulation, ken. He said the only thing is I'll take soppling out and put fish in it. Right, and, and I didn't realize fish meal. You know how good it was as a nutrient. So that was it. It was, uh, all I, yes, is now my best dairy cake then was 135 pound a ton, my gold medallion 18, if only. And this was 165, yeah, and I called it forager. Number one um, so, uh, that later that during that autumn, uh, and the following spring, I just went to people, saw people at shows, et cetera. I said, well, you try people that I called on, that I knew. I said, look, I'll give you five bags, do what I said. I'll give you five bags. Just feed it to your fresh cow in the parlor because you can scoop it, et cetera. And if I'd had more, if I'd had any sales staff apart from myself, it just was magic Cows went at five litres a cow. You know it was crazy. So the £165 a son was cheap, yeah, and that got me on the road.
Speaker 3:And if it's a fault that I have, I have a thirst for knowledge. Number one it excites me dairy nutrition, amino acids. Obviously I got on the trail subsequently. But it's easier to fulfill the nutrient requirements of a dairy cow and it's not expensive to do so, although we believe the opposite is true, or the farmer does. And that's a quote from Phil Gordoso, who said to me about five, six years ago another person that's been really good, mike Hutchins, another, and I've just met faces along the road who have been because of thirst for knowledge, you know, and I thought that academia would be a little bit more difficult to get information from. Yeah, yeah, because I was asking stupid questions. You know, really, when you think of it, I still do. Yeah, but somebody said to me only a fool never asks a question. And that is so, so true. We're frightened to embarrass ourselves when we shouldn't be.
Speaker 1:And to you half time. If you're out thinking it, someone else's as well, so just crack on and ask it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah um, and yeah, I, I've just. I just get excited by it, like I think there's um personal opinion. It's a quite exciting time in dairy nutrition at the moment. Yep, to go with animal, animal performance, but just matching their requirements. Meeting their requirements, we've got amino acids, we've got things like niacin, choline, a required nutrient. Quote unquote.
Speaker 1:Well, take choline as an example. Most people think they're there just to deal with fat cows during the transition, but I know there's work in the last year or two that shows it has so many other benefits other than that, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:It's a beautiful, beautiful product really, and without giving too much away. If you can combine it with one or two little bits, it's a methyl donor and that gives you so much to work with, especially if you're dealing with amino acids.
Speaker 1:And that's what we're here to do today. Talk about is amino acids. Now, as we say, last year it was lined up for Ken to join us and talk about, effectively, what we're going to talk about today, but unfortunately, at the last minute, you couldn't make it, could you? So Andrew Harrison stepped in and we touched on the project we're going to talk about then and obviously reached back out to you and said come on, ken, can you still come and do this please? I'd love for you to come across and to actually meet you in person. Finally, and that's why you're here, so let's take a start back. How did your amino acid journey start before we got onto the trial that we're going to talk about?
Speaker 3:talk about um right um 2010. Uh, I joined countrywide farmers. Four weeks into that, I got asked if I wanted to go to west germany or east germany or germany, um with all tech. Yep, yeah, um, obviously somebody pulled out and and I thought, yeah, it's really exciting, yeah, and it was about optogen protected yes yes, yes.
Speaker 3:So off we go, um, and the key to this is the first evening we flew out from gatwick um, it was snowing in april it was, and it's nine in germany, so our flight was delayed. We landed, all okay. Then we got into two vehicles and off we go. There's eight of us Warwick, bastard, yep, oh, a couple of names that I've lost at the minute, but there's eight of us, but learned people apart from me. We were sitting in Gatwick Airport and everybody was discussing that they were feeding 10,000 cows in Abbot, wherever in the Far East. Yeah, I remember one, 5,000 cows in East Germany, and there's me sitting with 150 cows in West Wales. So I was out of my league, really. Off we go, we arrive and we drive to a veterinary practice.
Speaker 3:That evening Got there late because of the flight delay and we sit upstairs in the boardroom and it was like a Dutch barn being refurbished and in Germany veterinary practices usually have one or two qualified nutritionists. So this gentleman, mexican gentleman, qualified in Cornell, worked in America for a while, now works in Germany. Obviously the Cornell program, never seen it before in my life, was introduced and I sat next to the quieter of these two doing a presentation and at the end of the table was in the left-hand corner, was Warwick and I was sitting up the front of the table, which is an elongated one, almost sitting next but one to the projector. During the presentation a gentleman was talking about optogen and he said 16% protein and I'm looking and I thought I'd missed something in the translation and I said excuse me. And I looked down the table and there's Warwick, barry Aldiss, a couple of others sensible people, warwick I'd met before with Bioclaw and I went. Do I ask the question?
Speaker 2:You know, is it?
Speaker 3:they're real people we're talking about. I'm going to look stupid, you know, and I thought, well, I'm here, so I've got to ask it. So I said, excuse me, are you talking about beef animals? And then he just got his infrared and just circled 41 litres. He said no. I said what on 16%?
Speaker 1:protein.
Speaker 3:I bear in mind it's 2010. He went dairy cows don't need crude protein. And this gentleman, the vet sitting next to me, he went I have no requirements, sir. Anyway, they just glossed over it and carried on. Following day he went to see two herds, both feeding protected urea averaging 42 liters three times a day, milking averaging 42 liters three times a day, milking um. On the flight back um, the guy from all tech asked me. He said um what do you think? Are you going to sell it? I said will you take me somewhere else to see similar results? Yeah, and I'll give it a go. Yeah, so, um, anyway, get off a plane, get home. And I went on the internet. Amino acids, you know, metabolizable protein, that was the word, and I came up with Gabriel Varga, who was the person for amino acids then from Illinois.
Speaker 1:Illinois. I think yeah, I mean to be honest. You sent me a presentation, didn't you? And it's something I pulled out. It says cows do not have a crude protein requirement and that is as you say, professor Gabriela Varga, penn State.
Speaker 3:Penn State University. Yeah, thank you. And I thought, oh, and I saw this article. So I emailed her and not thinking you'd get a reply, yep. But the following day, the day day after she replied, and she she's gave me, which is such a valuable um possession I still have. She sent me a 40 slide presentation on a pdf and she, she sent me the actual slide presentation as well.
Speaker 3:Uh, starting from what crude protein is right through to metabolizable protein, it was just magic, absolute magic, and I discovered this and got a reply to this on the day before I flew out in July with Alltech to Cremona, got on the plane and the guy from Alltech was asking me I said I know what it's all about now. He went. What I said, I know what it's all about now. He went. What I said I'll tell you later. You know, we went to Cremona, saw exactly the same thing 42-liter cows, glucogenic diets.
Speaker 3:By now, april, may, june, july I think it must have been July. I've got three of my customers to try it. I said look what 16%. I said, yeah, yeah, but you need, I need to raise the carbohydrate starch level, etc. Yeah, milk proteins went up by about 0.3 milk. You went up. It was just like pressing a magic button. Yeah, you know, going to supermarket and get a ready mix formula. You know, um, I, I was just floating, really. Uh, we went to Italy, saw exactly what they were saying, duplicated it, so, coming back, that was it. I was with Countrywide. Then I developed three blends for maize and grass silage grass silage alone, maize grass silage and crimp grain. Yeah, yeah, that balance, one of three buried in starch and sugar levels, yep and protein levels. But you could whether it was yourself, sarah, I had one of three would work, yeah, and introduce those, and it was just like a yeah, it was yeah, it was just like pressing a button if you want to cast a milk, you know, bearing in mind a compound with fish moving.
Speaker 3:But then fish meal got, uh, got banned, so we we went with protected protein, that was late 90s.
Speaker 1:Fish that was um bse and all of that wasn't it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it must have been 84 when I changed?
Speaker 3:yeah, it would have been early 90s.
Speaker 1:It was because I was a student at the co-op and that would have been what 97, and we were using fish meal and the last as I finished, so that would be early 98,. No, that was 96 and 97. As we were changing, we started using Sopralin or there was some nut product. I seem to remember it was also trials and returns. It was about to be banned in about a year's time, so it was late 90s. Definitely fish milk.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's what got me on the road, really, from then on, I've got a person I can't sell cheap and nasty, yeah, and I know that I don't win some races, yeah, but I mean, just currently, I've developed a product incorporating energy, because of what we've been talking about, amino acids and a vitamin B3. And it is 50 pounds a tonne let me get this right more than my next best cake.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:But it'll push milk yield up, yeah, especially for the early lactation and I just tried to explain to somebody if you feed six kilos and it's yeah, 150 versus six kilos at 400 in round figures All you've got to do is get one litre more and you're in front and this goes you'll get two to three litres, but you can stop feeding it and it'll just run on. It excites me. Try to explain that, and I don't wish to be. It's arrogant, it's what I believe and I've seen that it works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, yeah, it's it's sometimes it's that convincing people, isn't it? Because I know myself I've had customers have now got out of dairy. But when I went to them and said, look, we ought to do some amino acids based on the trial that I'd done, I said, look, it's going to headline. Cost is going to be more, but per liter it's probably no different than what you're paying at the moment. If we get that three liters of milk that the trial that I'd been involved with showed, and they said okay. And they said, but what about the health benefits? I said, well, if you get the health benefits that we saw they went, then it's paid for itself, hasn't it? It's a win-win that you know the fact. You know it might be costing us more headline, but cost per litre is the same. The bonus for us is the health benefits and if we get the health benefits, as you say, win-win. And after that it would sort of be. I did a lot of work to get it going, but after that you go up there, right? So what's wrong? Nothing.
Speaker 3:Well, this, I mean, my biggest thing is we look at amino acids and balancing diets for lysine with thionine on the basis of milk yield or components.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that's what's paying.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you a story with Kevin Robert Hamilton, if he gets to listen to this, Yep.
Speaker 1:He should. Well, he's on the mailing list, so he'll get a notification. Definitely he will put his fingers in his ears. Yep, he should….
Speaker 3:Well, he's on the mailing list so he'll get a notification. Definitely, yeah, he will put his fingers in his ears. We had started the trial and we had 100 calves on the trial and 100 control, 100 on the trial on a 450 cow herd in West Wales I've been serving for about 13, 14 years and we started to travel Now on this farm we'd already done the extra 0.3% milk quality and two liters more milk 18 months before this. On Phil Cordozo's advice advice because he, uh, following my, my um association with gabriella vargas she retired I got hold of mike hutchins and said where do I go, where do I go for for advice? And he said, um, you go to mansfield, phil cordoso, yeah, so anyway, I got older phil um, and he, he's been brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He takes forever to answer an email, but you get there in the end.
Speaker 1:You just remind me you're right, actually, because I know I contacted Bill Weiss about something once, thinking he's never going to. And they do.
Speaker 2:Very good Is that because, as scientists, they want to know that what they've been talking about is actually being used on the ground.
Speaker 1:I think that's what they all want to know that what they're, what they've been talking about, is actually being used on the ground.
Speaker 3:I think it's. Oh, that's what you know, I think that's what.
Speaker 2:That's what they all want to know that it's actually being put into practice, I think touching on that just very for a minute.
Speaker 3:Um, phil gradoso's paper on uh increased um oocyte size, yeah, by signing, carrying, cleansing the liver triglycerides back back down. Coats the egg, yeah, yeah. And he did a trial where they then harvested the eggs and sent them to another university for assaying both on size and viability and they found out that once treated with methionine the cow 16% increased survival rate. So I've got a new customer on transition diets, which are a passion for me, and my transition is prairie was protected soy but it's now protected rate meal. I've got choline, got lysine, got methionine, yeah, and that's where it's been.
Speaker 3:Initially it was just lysine, methionine and prairie and soya Changed it to rate meal and intercalutic choline now. So works very well, brilliantly. So on this farm, introduced the farmer to it and I told him about Phil Gordoso's trial with the increased egg size and had a paper that had been published. It's not a paper but a flyer, so I copied it and I used to give that to the farmers. Anyways, that came out and it's the first year that I served him, given a PD inspection, and he was quoted 45 days, in-car, 45 days, 50 days. When he finished he said sorry, he said I didn't serve until 35 days ago.
Speaker 3:So, he said no, no, not possible. He said. Well, it is possible. He said and your best bet is to find my nutritionist. Anyway, I pinged this information off to Phil Cordoza, yeah, and he was over the moon and he said this is brilliant. And he said, in academia we do research, we get the results, but we never see the opportunity to see it applied in a commercial situation. He said get this feedback. He said it's really really good.
Speaker 2:So that's where it's at, and there's not enough of that communication from universities or research down to on-farm in both ways, isn't it? It's so important.
Speaker 3:I said to my son he's not in this field.
Speaker 2:He's in kidney research.
Speaker 3:He's in research, kidney research. He's a doctor up at Leicester. I said Ben. I said sometimes I have to read these research papers, journal sites, three times, he said Ben. He said so do I. And I went oh right, you know, and you don't realize, do you? Yeah, you know, but it's just exciting for me.
Speaker 1:so from transition I I started to introduce it in fresh diets you've you've you've started mentioning trial, so take a step back, because that's what we're here to do is to talk about the trial that we. We mentioned a little bit of the results with andrew harrison last year. But so to take a step back, what brought this trial on, why did you do it and and where does it go from there?
Speaker 3:basically, before we go on, because it's in west wales you had two control groups, but start from the beginning, right during covid, we, we, uh, obviously we were stuck at home, yeah, so, um, a lot of um cornell's work was went on. Webinars yep, and the one that I'm talking about was Van Amburg and Molina, where the student PhD did a trial on feeding three different types of methionine in a calf ration yep, yeah and I'm assuming, three different commercial products we mean by that?
Speaker 1:yep, they developed.
Speaker 3:It was on a straw based diet with a 20% and I'm assuming, three different commercial products. We mean by that? Yeah, yeah, um, they developed, uh, it was on a straw based diet with a 20 percent um protein calf starter and it it was exceptional formulation. Um, I, uh, I'm a consultant with wednesday plc, yep, um. But we, we had a chat and because and because some of the raw materials that they used on this specification we didn't stock, yep, yep, and we dealt with Andrew Harrison, with Johansson, yep, on our car starter Yep, I got put in touch with Andrew to say, look, we wanted to do this trial Once we'd got the agreement signed with Kemin, because Kemin said that they'd stand behind the trial, yep, so Andrew formulated Obviously we've got the formulation on Van Amburg's presentation and paper Yep, and Andrew made it from that.
Speaker 3:So the idea I was going to do this based on Van Amburg's paper, that got published I think 2021, I think Right. Yeah, it was just COVID started. It got published and it was a live presentation. And what impressed me end of four weeks, no end of 12 weeks. The one-of-a-tribe diets with this calf starter was four kilos heavier than the other two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, four kilos.
Speaker 3:And it is a package ADS trial. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I thought, goodness me. So I emailed Phil Cordoso when I saw this and listened to the presentation, quite excited, I said, well, and my question to him was if these trial results obviously are true which they are do we actually need to balance diets for amino acid profiles from birth to end of life? And he came back and he said the words I've partially said already. He said, ken, from birth the nutritional requirements is the same. He said we have to match their nutritional requirements, but the farmer doesn't like to do so because he doesn't feel that the benefits are cost effective. When the opposite is true, yep. And I thought, well, how do we prove?
Speaker 2:it? How do we do it?
Speaker 3:Yep, and so I was going to do this. And it's the same time I changed from the other company to Chemin, and Robert had been in charge and I spoke about it. He said, well, we'd run that with you yeah, and he went off to diago.
Speaker 3:Yep, um, and they came back and we had a meeting, all the papers signed off. We go. I mean my, my sincere thanks to peter smith and his brother michael at pelcom farming, have the west, because it was no mean feat to separate 100 to 200 calves carbs and to feed them the way we wanted, because the protocol was set. We had the calf start made with amino acid balanced with lysine and methionine, and the calf rear of the same. So we took them through from birth to calving down, basically, yeah, transition.
Speaker 1:So one of my questions is were the dams on any amino acids?
Speaker 3:during that transition. Yeah, indeed.
Speaker 1:So both groups? Because obviously amino acids do benefit the calf in vitro, don't they? So I just wanted to ask that question. So everything had had a their dam had had a transition period with amino acids, indeed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on this farm that's a given now. So we start the trial quite excited, all set up off, we go, we calf down, keep them separate, and then 12 weeks, eight weeks in, I get Simonella. Now my biggest thing, let me finish this up. So we get Simonella. So what are we going to do? So we have a meeting. So there was Andrew, robert, diago, myself.
Speaker 3:So Robert's famous words were there were three dead on the trial. On the trial, 100 calves, three that died. And on the control there were 12 dead. Yeah, and we were talking about this. So Robert said well, let's take them out, take them out of the equation. So I said, robert, you can't do that, we don't. I said what people don't realize it's not just the performance in terms of milk yield, components, these are calves, it's. You take to anybody that's fed amino acids to dairy cows and ask them how their fertility is. Yeah, and they'll say, great, it's improved if I haven't fed them before, and the reason is it improves the immunity system. Yeah, you know. So you can't do that, you can't take them out, we've got to run with it. And then Diago agreed with that. And that's the frustration. People think it's just for components milk quality milk yield, and it's not you speak to anybody.
Speaker 3:Milk quality, milk yield yeah, and it's not you speak to anybody. I mean, I've got two herds about 400 cows each that we do feed balance, including peter smith, who I've spoken about and their conceptual rates are great yeah, I, I say I completely agree.
Speaker 1:I mean I, I know I mentioned it in the podcast with andrew last year, but like I obviously did a trial with kevin five years ago, I think it would be now, must be and and that was one of the things we saw was the fact that uh days to first conception all dropped by three days. And I mentioned it then and I'll quite happily mention again, because no one's told me off in the uh last year. So I'm all right. But like the first I don't know was it 15, 20 cows, whatever it is we actually took them of the trial because they all went in calf first service and like no one's going to believe that these 20 cows or whatever it was it was 150 cow herd, but you know these first, whatever it was, were 15, 20 cows.
Speaker 1:I've got the data probably here somewhere All got in calf first service. We're like, well, no one's going to believe us, so we better take them out. So they were taken out the the trial because it was too good, but even those that were left still had a three-day improvement on fertility in today's in calf and so completely agree with you, there's every, it is.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's the the impact on farm, for just you know. You think, oh, it's only three days, but the impact on that, the cost. There's cost savings, it's about five for, but the impact on that, the cost savings.
Speaker 1:It's about five for a day, or something for every day. They're open, or something, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's something like that the King's Day Dairy Costings Focus Report always… I think it's just a given.
Speaker 1:As you say, people think about the performance. Is it going to give me more milk? Is it going to give me more milk? Is it going to give me more fat, more protein, whatever it happens to be? But that's not. It's the unquantifiable stuff. You can quantify it, sorry, but you can't quantify it so much in terms of money. That's easy to do.
Speaker 3:I generally think the herds that perform are Do so because of their attention to detail. Depending on your silage quality, the biggest problem you have on farm with very good silages, if you're going to feed amino acids, is lactic acid levels. Yep, yeah, yep, you've got to try and address it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got to try and address it. And Kevin has now got a really nice UK manager techno advisor, kirsty Farnham Right, and she is really, yeah, really, somebody I'm going to suck die for knowledge. Yeah, she's enthusiastic but technically adept. Yeah, yeah, we were talking about this lactic acid it is.
Speaker 1:I've come across that in numerous farms that, uh, I'm even had classically think of one client that at low input. But basically they had problems and they've told them it was winter dysentery. And I said, let me come and have a look. And and I was like thinking it must be mycotoxins or whatever and looked around couldn't find nothing. And I was like thinking it must be mycotoxins or whatever and looked around couldn't find nothing. And I was like I'm scratching my head.
Speaker 1:And they went do you want to see the silage analysis? I went, yes, please. They showed it to me and there was over 120 grams of lactic acid. And I went there's our problem. And they're like what I said, I'll resample your silage just to confirm. I said, yeah, there's your problem, your lactic acid is too high and that causes you problems. And then we we did a few things to sort it out, very limited because I only had the one forage, etc. Etc. But you solved it. And they still say to me yeah, it's not, wasn't that winter dysentery, was it? And you, I see it time and time again on farms. People don't. If the lactic acid is too high, you then get other complications.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah especially with with fermentation. If you're talking about amino acids, haven't you? Yeah, but this farm I'm talking about eat milks twice a day, makes excellent silage, but it's a tension to detail. We've averaged 39 litres since the last cow's calf.
Speaker 1:We started calving in September, October, November, August, late August, so I should say to anybody listening to this lactic acid is a sign that you've probably November, august, late August, sorry, awesome carving. I should say to anybody listening to this lactic acid is a sign that you've probably had a good fermentation.
Speaker 3:So actually for your silage it's a good thing but for your cow it's a bad thing but that's another one, just anyone listening to this yeah, 100 grams, please, yes, yes, and you'll be fine, but yeah, so we lost. Talking about the calves yeah, um, they came over it. But what is significant?
Speaker 1:the the growth rate straight away, though you could say. The fact that you had four times as many die without the amino acids suggests that the amino acids was obviously having those health benefits oh, yeah, it's immunity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's immunity. Yeah, and that's what I was trying to say when robert said let's take a match right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know You've got to show the good and the bad, but what?
Speaker 3:was significant. The control group dropped down to 0.5, 0.54. Yep yeah, weight grams per day, Yep. And the treaty group stayed on average about 0.8. Yeah, and the figures that we've got here obviously I can talk about, but by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, yeah, 10 weigh-ins, because we were weighing on a monthly basis. The treated group was 20 kilos heavier average weight. Yeah, yeah than than the um control group. You're looking at 251 kilos versus 272 so they, they were all.
Speaker 1:They were all the same. As you say, they were split based on uh same size, same diet, apart from the um starter.
Speaker 3:yep yeah, which was uh one obviously, obviously was balanced for lysine methionine, as per the Cornell work, yep.
Speaker 1:And obviously the…. That's what Andrew said. They were identical. There was nothing different about them apart from the one that the trial had been balanced for lysine methionine versus the other one. That was just as it would be commercially normally. So they came off the starter at what? Just as it would be commercially normally.
Speaker 2:So they came off the starter at what age, as they were weaned 12, yeah yeah, yeah onto. Oh, as they were weaned off the starter, yeah onto varira, yeah, and again that had one diet with and one diet without the same same formulation, one with balance, one not, but what?
Speaker 3:what was interesting when they went out to grass?
Speaker 1:so they did go out when they went out to grass… so they did go out to grass. They went out to grass, they would have been what? Six, eight months old at that point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, about six months, a bit younger possibly. Yeah, because Pembrokeshire they can grow grass quite well. Yeah, and we had a snack feeder yeah, snack feeders feeding them out of grass. We had a snack feeder yeah, snack feeders feed them out of grass. And Peter said well, I've never fed them, so on a scheme like that before, if we didn't have enough grass, possibly we wouldn't feed them this week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, knock it back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we said. But what was interesting is those that the control group gained made up a lost weight from a simonella Yep. They lost. They were only putting 0.5, 0.54, 0.58 kilos a day on. Yeah, once they got out of the grass, they caught back up this trial group up. Yeah, yeah, um, which was interesting. Um, then, in terms of conception, uh, we uh, well, what?
Speaker 1:what age were they then? What was your target weight for bullying?
Speaker 3:About 55% of live weight.
Speaker 1:So what's mature 350?
Speaker 3:Yeah, 350 is the target rate 350.
Speaker 1:So what rates or what point were they hitting the 350 kilo targets? At what point, what age, I should say, were the two different groups averaging?
Speaker 3:I can't answer that actually. Fair enough, it's not one of the papers that I brought with me.
Speaker 2:But I'm guessing one group hit that weight before the other group.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we, we've said there, sarah, growth rates obviously were better. We had 32 week 45. Yeah, yeah, 32 of the control group uh were inseminated.
Speaker 1:yeah and uh, how? So I should ask, when they're inseminated, was it? How were they weighed? And then those are big enough? Those aren't. Were they then, uh, synchronized or was it done?
Speaker 3:on natural heats.
Speaker 1:they were done on body weight, no, but I mean, once you'd agreed, once they'd ticked the body weights of 350 kilos, were they then done on natural heats or were they synchronized? Not synchronized natural heats, it was just natural heats, yep.
Speaker 3:Yep. So on week 45, 32 were inseminated Yep, yeah, of were inseminated, yep, yeah. Of the control yeah, and pregnant rate was 42% yeah, so 14 pregnant.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of the control group. Same week, 44, week 44, 45, 50 were inseminated.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, that's the treatment group, the ones that were on there. Yeah yeah, the trial group inseminated. Yeah yeah, that's the treatment group, the ones that were on there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the trial group, yeah, sorry, yeah, and 52 were eligible, 50 were inseminated and pregnancy rate was 42%.
Speaker 1:Same percentage, but more numbers, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah with me on that, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:So we go. I've got to mention this. We go into carving and I hadn't been to the farm for about six weeks. I made an appointment to go and Peter said you better come and have a look at these. He said the heifers have started to carve down. So I said oh yeah. He said come and have a look. The heavens have started to carve down. So I said oh yeah. He said come and have a look. So we go into the shed and I'm looking at he said what do you think?
Speaker 3:And I'm looking at the cow. Seppard looking at body room of. Phil looking at body condition.
Speaker 2:And I think I wonder what he wants me to say, or what he wants me to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, and I wasn't sure, and I said, well, I said, and I did look really lovely, superb. And he went, what's the difference, who he knows to? So he said, are they cows or heifers? I said, what do you?
Speaker 2:mean.
Speaker 3:That's a silly question. He said well, what do you think? I said well, they're both cows. One was a cow, one was a heifer. He said that's the problem I've got. I said what do you mean? Problem you've got? He said bernie mice got 450 smoking. Yeah, yeah, 300. He said I can't tell the difference between those heifers that have been on this trial.
Speaker 3:He said, and I've talked about the control group as well- yeah I can't talk to him between those and a cow when I'm looking at their ass end in the parlor. You know, and that's the difference. It's their meeting their nutrition requirements. You make them fit enough to run a marathon, don't you? That's the way I look at it.
Speaker 2:So the facts were overwhelming.
Speaker 3:We've got one paper written up on it, but then, when it came to carving down, the request from Kevin was to to feed them. Keep them separate. Yep, feed them one. Right, and it's a tmr. Yeah, but we, we didn't have a space to keep it. Yeah, yeah, two to 100 car groups separately yeah, the plan would have been.
Speaker 1:I'm guessing then to see what they'd done first lactation with or without?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been interesting on that. There's a liter difference throughout to date. Now we're just drying off. Yeah, it's just finishing their first lactation now.
Speaker 1:It's really strange.
Speaker 3:It's almost to the T. There's one litre difference between a control cow and a trial cow. The trial cows are one litre up every month. Is that right? I'll send you the details.
Speaker 2:And with the milk price where that is, that's worth a fair bit of money, yeah yeah, so really, then what would you say?
Speaker 1:the outcomes? They've obviously grown better as calves. They've survived disease pressure better.
Speaker 3:If you touch on that. I think the point being is, if you survive it better, you're better able to go into milk more profitably.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Especially to hit the growth rate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, especially to hit the growth rate yeah. Yeah, and it'd be interesting to see what the endolactation?
Speaker 1:yields are so, as we said, disease pressure better. So they've obviously grown better, which means they've hit bullying weight better Earlier. Yeah, yeah, yes, earlier, better, earlier I'm guessing they probably had overall better submission and conception rates.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, they have. Yeah, Just looking at fatalities, the rate is 37%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so do you have an age of first carving average between the two groups?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, they were both similar because they tried to get served at the same time.
Speaker 1:It's just those ones were bigger, those ones that got served later from the control group would be poorer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we've definitely seen better growth, better disease resistance, the health benefits they're carving in. Now you're saying you're seeing an extra litre.
Speaker 3:Right throughout the lactation they have maintained a litre higher throughout.
Speaker 1:Are they all on an amino acid diet now from, I guess, the transition and then into what?
Speaker 3:now. No, not now.
Speaker 1:Uh, we obviously line up, for we'll be carving in a month yeah, but for the 120 days post carving they had a no, no because you couldn't.
Speaker 3:We couldn't do both. No, we couldn't separate. So I decided not to do anything and both both groups run. Groups run on an ordinary diet without the amino acid balance.
Speaker 1:Did they have a transition diet?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, they had a transition diet.
Speaker 1:But the milking diet for this lactation has all been not amino acid balanced, yeah, non-amino balanced, and we're seeing a litre extra milk, yep. Are we seeing any improvement in fertility rates on this first lactation?
Speaker 3:Well, we're serving. Yeah, fertility rates were, yeah, 37.6%. No, well, they're not separated, so I can't. Pete is looking at the. He's got an American fertility program, so he's looking at KBIs, so we will have that information to hand.
Speaker 1:At the moment you don't, but at some point you will separate them out. This was the trial group. This was the control group.
Speaker 3:That's being done. We were speaking about it yesterday.
Speaker 1:As we speak, it's being done, but overall then by the sounds of it, you would say it's an incredibly positive outcome.
Speaker 3:Well put it this way. When we did it the first time, uh, peter, uh, bought the car starter himself. Yep, so, as opposed to being subsidized on the trial, yep, yeah, and it wasn't, it was, yeah, it was worth every penny, he would say. But he, he, he found out and said I want 10 ton as in bags, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I said yeah, really where went?
Speaker 1:yep, that was it, he's not questioned it and how much I think andrew did mention it, but what was the price difference between the control calf starter and rearer compared to the trial?
Speaker 3:andrew would know that better than me, because, because what we arranged, that he would invoice Peter Direct Direct. Yeah, so I didn't see that side of it.
Speaker 1:That's fair enough. That's fair enough. I think he did say what it was, but I don't want to say it in case I've got it wrong from hearing it back the last 24 hours.
Speaker 3:No, but the fact Peter came back and bought it himself for second year, that says everything, doesn't it? It says everything, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:So he's now got all of his young stock on the amino acid balanced young stock rear. Yep Says everything.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And that's yeah, but if you see the cows, I'll forward you some pictures, but they look really well, really well. Yeah, you know, I say cows, the heifers that were on the trial. Yeah, yeah yeah, when they calve down, brilliant they really look fit so farmers happy, nice body condition.
Speaker 1:Farmers happy. Yep, you're happy. Indeed, I'm guessing Kemin are happy. Got to be now, aren't they? I'd think so, wouldn't you? Andrew must be happy because he's just got 10 ton of business. Yeah, yeah, of uh business, yeah, yeah. And, more importantly, the cows are happy. Yes, that's what it's all about.
Speaker 2:That's what that's what we're doing this for is yes, we've got healthy cows. I don't.
Speaker 3:But, as you you've touched on before, I don't think we treat, we don't treat transitioning cows properly, you know, um, and if we did the, the payback would be so much better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not saying everybody, but uh, oh, as we record this, we haven't recorded the next one that you'll hear before. This one, which is going to be one on, would have been one on transition because, for that simple reason, I we touched that before the record.
Speaker 1:I don't want to go too much today because it's here, but you've said it yourself, I've seen some criminal transition diets out there and, yeah, that's just not if that's how you start in the meditation, that's yeah, if you yeah, you've got to get it right, you've got it, because if you don't get that right, the whole thing just goes from oh, that's right I mean, you know just wearing my cow signals hat, is it so? 80 percent of 80 percent of illness and disease starts in that transition.
Speaker 3:Fresh cow oh yeah, by far you've got to get it right oh yeah, I think it's. It's like asking somebody to run a marathon and only run up the park and back again twice a week. Yeah, not gonna happen. Yeah, not gonna happen. But it's disease. You, you lose so many liters because of disease yeah yeah, ketosis, etc. Etc. Yeah yeah it just, yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's an investment, not a cost I know, and that it's changing people's, some people's mindsets to that. That, as you say, it's the investment in what you're. And, like I was saying that farm, I did it too. I used to almost feel guilty because at that rate I was charging them a flat rate fee rather than an hourly fee. And you know, sort of nine months later or whatever, you're sort of going. So what's the problems today? And they're like going well, nothing. And I'm like going well, why am I here? And they're like, no, no, it's fine. You did all the hard work nine months, a year ago, when you, you convinced us to go amino acids. You, you got us to do it and obviously put in the work to get us to do that. Here's the payback that you know we are. We don't have any problems because you've got the diet sorted, we've got the amino acids.
Speaker 3:It's doing what it's supposed to do oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought yeah, but amino acids, I yeah, they're a nutritional requirement, yeah, and that's yeah, I said by gabriel avaga as I say many years, they don't have a crude protein requirement.
Speaker 1:It's where I mean I know I've mentioned it before. I mean you probably know more than me, can I mean you know, years ago we used to feed a lot of high-protein diets, didn't we?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and I looked it up like I remember it was and is it, you know, apparently the optimum crude protein level for a cow for milk production? We're talking purely milk production because obviously you'll have some negative health effects because this is 22 and a half percent crude protein if you are driving purely milk. We don't want that, we don't do that and and back then as well, it used to be very much. I'll use the analogy again. I've used people, you just you throw a blanket of everything at them. They took what they wanted and then they usually peed the rest out the back, which was expelling and wasting money. Protein, energy, therefore milk and um. Again it comes back to like, was it chris reynolds has said I can get cows to milk at 14 but they don't live as long because the likelihood is they don't have those essential amino acids we're not supplying what we need.
Speaker 1:You know, we just used to chuck loads at them. Let the cow do what they want, get what they wanted, and then pee the rest out. The back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think there's still um last season, not this season. I had two, two hertz october, november, on 20 protein diets it's still common, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I'm not a nutritionist by any stretch of the imagination, but we're understanding that diets should be lower in protein. But actually, how many farmers are still feeding those high-protein?
Speaker 1:diets and the costs of that. So what can we… Under FAR, so Feed, so feed advisors register you're supposed to. There was a whole set. There's a whole segment in there can on um, lowering your crude proteins and that, and the environmental cost, the financial cost. But I know myself there, there were, and I haven't seen one or two of their diets. There's been four nutritionists, feed advisors, whatever you want to call them around here that I used to come across with frequently with all their diets. Of these people if you weren't on their farm you knew without even looking they'd be 19 plus crude protein. They'd chuck a load of figure edgeria. I remember going to one and, oh, he knows how to make cow's milk. No it you just, it's just wrong. Yeah, it's just wrong. So if there's.
Speaker 2:If there's a farmer sitting there listening to this today and knows they're on a higher protein diet, what's? What's your advice? What to what's the first step they should, should, do?
Speaker 1:come and talk to someone independent. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the answer yeah, yeah, but it's proven.
Speaker 3:I mean, I've just mentioned a farmer, awesome, carving 39 liters twice a day, milking 15.45 crude protein.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fertility is great yeah.
Speaker 3:It's a nonsense. It's just such a waste.
Speaker 1:And we're talking crude protein. And that brings me back to the trial I was involved with. We were aiming for 16.5 crude protein but we still tested. So that was. We got the source of the feed. We asked the feed company where the protein and that was coming from. We asked them for their latest results. They weren't just library results, they were their rolling six-month results on stuff. So we got it. We asked them for their latest results. They weren't just library results, they were the rolling six months results on stuff. So we had it all correct.
Speaker 1:You know we were testing those forages regularly and everything and we'd rebalance it at least monthly to 16 and a half percent. And yet we were testing the straight out the wagon and the guy that was doing the feeding was really good that. He was pretty much spot on most days. You know really good at what he did and it was done by a portion, not by a. You know the forages were adjusted, those those on-farm trials I think some of them one week. They were sent off weekly to trow. I think we got down as low as like 15 or something, despite the fact that we were aiming at 16 and a half percent crude protein when trow came back with testing a sample. It was as low as 15, so it's it's never. It's never where you think it. Yeah, it's going to be, is it so? So if?
Speaker 3:it's variance in terms of not only raw materials but silages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's gonna vary, yeah, yeah yeah, it is, it's, it's just as you say. And so again, yeah, like you're asking, sir, I'd say if you're running at 18 plus diets without a good reason, is there a good reason? I don't know.
Speaker 3:You tell me, ken, you know more about this stuff than I do. I can't imagine why.
Speaker 2:It was my sustainability hat on and everything else, it seems such a waste, doesn't it? It's inefficient.
Speaker 1:Well, again, it comes back to that quote from I didn't make the trial conference this year because I'd um, what'd I do? I pulled my calf muscle, wasn't it? So I wasn't able to drive um. But you take back to you before. Like some farms are getting fed up of hearing the word sustainability, well, it's profitability. Ultimately, it comes down to why you feed an extra protein because it's costing you oh, it's protein efficiency on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, whatever way you look at it, yeah, yeah, so yeah, there's no excuse now definitely not, definitely not.
Speaker 1:So, um, I'm looking at the time, ken, and just thinking it's probably time we start wrapping this up. Are there any words of wisdom from yourself that we haven't heard, or any things you think that we should know from the trial that we?
Speaker 3:haven't spoken about. I can only work on. The ethos I do is is that yeah, we've just got to do a better job yeah yeah, um, um. There's. Look after transition cows. It's fundamental if you want your cows to milk well, yeah, yeah and yeah, and meet their nutritional requirements. And that's exactly what I was told, exactly what Phil Cordoso is talking about, and it works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm assuming you're rolling this because of these results, you're rolling this out to other clients for their young stock?
Speaker 3:We're trying, we're trying. But the calf starter is, yeah, hellishly expensive, but it's only got pristine raw materials in it.
Speaker 1:It is it's quality, not quantity, often, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's your money, it takes your choice. Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but we've got a good one ourselves within Wednesday. A start on wean is an excellent product, but without the amino acids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So yeah, but it's look after the transition cows first, yeah, and then everything rolls into place.
Speaker 1:Definitely definitely Any thoughts from yourself, sarah.
Speaker 2:I think that my sort of overall observation is that you've used the words attention to detail, but actually just feeding the amino acids that they require. Is that words, attention to detail, but actually just feeding the amino acids that they require? Is that huge attention to detail?
Speaker 3:but actually it works, and I think that that's what I've taken from today's discussion definitely oh it does work on the immunity, as well as yield and components, but I do think, yeah, it's the little attention to detail that makes this separates. You know, the really particular people and the really particular farmers are the ones that moan at you the most.
Speaker 1:Well, on that note, I think it's time to wrap this up. So I'd like to thank Ken very much for his time today. It's been fantastic, and thank you very much for coming across from West Wales to talk to us, which has been absolutely brilliant. But otherwise, I guess it's a goodbye from me.
Speaker 2:It's a goodbye from me and great to meet you, Ken.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you Thank you very much to you both. Thank you, thank you, ken. Thank you very much to you both. Thank you, thank you, ken.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Tune the Cut podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of Tune the Cud Ltd. Recommendations of Tune the Cud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Tune the Cud Ltd and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by Tune the Cud Ltd, visit wwwtunethecudcom. Thank you and goodbye.