ChewintheCud Podcast
The Team, based in the South West of England, explore their passion for cows and the dairy industry as they talk about a range of industry related topics.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com
ChewintheCud Podcast
Cow Recovery, Done Right
A down cow should never mean panic. We sit down with Dorset tenant farmer James Yeatman and Synergy Farm Health’s research lead, vet Rachel Hayton, to unpack a farmer-built “cow ambulance” that turns a stressful emergency into a calm, repeatable procedure. Born from love for cows and sharpened by hard lessons—and yes, a tough Panorama broadcast—this system pairs a purpose-built, rounded-edge, rubber-lined bucket with a simple reel and straps, then anchors it all with a nine-step training method any well-briefed team can follow.
We trace the journey from improvised bucket-rolls and hip lifter misuse to a standard that reduces bruising, cuts secondary injuries, and lowers antibiotic use. James explains the practical design choices: a visible green cross, dedicated storage so nothing goes missing, and a steering-wheel reel for safer operation. Rachel brings the clinical lens and the data: with Innovate UK support, 15 farms logged outcomes from more than a hundred recoveries, revealing fewer people needed, less disruption, and better cow comfort when recovery was realistic. The big picture is compelling—improved welfare, stronger staff safety, and a more professional public image when phones and auditors are watching.
We also talk about culture change. Filming real loadings and critiquing them wasn’t easy, but it accelerated learning across farms. The online training (lifetime access with the kit) helps new staff build confidence fast, and the team is developing guidance on acceptable hip lifter use, nursing, and prevention—because getting off concrete early and onto sure footing can be the difference between standing and giving up. At around £4,995 delivered in mainland UK, the system can pay for itself by saving just a few cows and avoiding injuries, while giving your team a safer, calmer way to work.
Ready to professionalise down cow care on your unit, reduce risk, and protect trust in British dairy? Follow, share, and leave a review so more farm teams can find this conversation—and tell us: what’s the one change that most improved cow recovery on your farm?
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can email us directly at podcast@chewinthecud.com
This is the Chewing the Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello, my name's Andrew Jones, and with me today is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?
SPEAKER_03:I'm really well, thank you, and Andrew. How are you this week?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. Thank you. So what's been happening in your world this week?
SPEAKER_03:Well, the forage wagon has been rolling this week at Bridge Farm with David Cotton making the most of his um late season forage. I'm guessing he's probably not alone. There's probably um quite a few people out there just uh trying to get a little bit more forage in the clamp before the before the winter really sets in.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely around home, probably that last week September, first week in October, I saw a fair bit down, and I keep seeing various rakes going up and down the roads that I've been travelling this week. So it doesn't surprise me. And whether people might try and sneak in another one um at the end of the month and at least try and get what's there because there's some good grass growth around still, isn't there?
SPEAKER_03:There is definitely. It's still growing well around here. So uh whilst it's growing, I'm guessing people will try and make the most of it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, exactly, exactly. But then anyway, on to today's podcast. We've known about this one for a little while. I've been waiting for this one for a while. I can't remember when I first heard about it, whether it was at uh the dairy show um last year or whether one of our guests mentioned it when they were here recording a previous episode. But I think it's a real positive for the whole industry, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:It is. It's uh a great example of a farmer invention. And I think we're all aware that farmers are really good at uh making things when faced with uh with a challenge. And I think this is a really good example of a great farmer invention.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was launched back at Dairy Tech, was that February, isn't it? Um and uh I know one of our guests has been at a lot of the local shows with it, which has been fantastic. But say I and I know it's done very well in various awards. Um, but yeah, it's a great positive for the whole industry to get behind. I mean, we've all we've all had different ways of doing it, but if we can make a good standard way that works for everybody, that can work, you know, in any situation, and that's uh that that can prove that we're being professional in what we're doing, then that's gotta be a positive, hasn't it? Definitely, definitely. So let's go hear about it. Let's go hear about cow recovery. This podcast has been brought to you today by TuneTheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, cow signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. More details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.tunethecud.com or email us directly on nutrition at tune the cud.com. TuneThe Cud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website www.tunethecud.com or email us directly on training at tunethecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.
SPEAKER_03:And I'm Sarah Bolt.
SPEAKER_02:And welcome to the TuneTheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.
SPEAKER_03:Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.
SPEAKER_02:We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.
SPEAKER_03:We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself, can it be done differently?
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SPEAKER_02:Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back to TuneTheCurb Podcast. And today we're going to talk about uh care recovery system. And with us today, our guests are James Yetman. Morning, James. Hello. And uh Rachel Hayton. Hello, Rachel.
SPEAKER_04:Morning.
SPEAKER_02:Glad to see you back. It's lovely to be back. Thank you very much. So before we get on to talk about the care recovery system, James, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to be where you are today?
SPEAKER_01:Alright, so yes, I'm a tenant farmer in North Dorset. So uh yeah, we the family have been on on the estate since 1901, I think. So we're well established at the current farms for 35 years. So it's uh yes, it's uh I'm well on in my farming career, I suppose you could say. Um yeah, we we we milk uh four 4 uh 10,000 or 11,000 litre cows at uh at the farm, um depending on the forage quality of the year. Um and and we we we we unusually we we block carve them. Um I went to New Zealand when I was 18 and fell in love with block calving, so uh but but but uh it's a heavy clay farm, so it doesn't suit a a normal grazing season, if you see what I mean. Yep. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And uh and how and how's calving going this year?
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, we've I think we've done just over three hundred now, so so we're well on through. Um we we're under a bit of TB restriction at the moment, so we haven't actually shifted any cows, so there's 300 on milk at the moment, which is uh so yes, uh I shouldn't really be here, but there we are. It's all it's all it's always good to get off far. Son and daughter and uh uh Alex the Polish chap uh busily keeping things under control.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, exactly. Exactly. And it's probably the usual end of carving block.
SPEAKER_01:Come on, hurry up, girls, I want this done. Well, we it we we have in the past been able to wrap up carving before we start AI, but we start AI at the beginning of November now, and and we we will have a few left, but we'll have uh 20 or 30 stragglers left before we start. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And Rachel, obviously, you've been on before, but would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, certainly. So I'm uh I'm a farm and all vet with Synergy Farm Health based in Dorset. Um we're lucky to work with James as one of our clients. Um and I've I guess I've been a clinical vet for over 30 years now, but the last few years I've actually stopped doing um the normal clinical work, and I am the research lead for the practice, and that means I kind of oversee a program of of research, which I guess you could summarize it that we we try and answer problems that that that that would be practical problems that that our clients want answers to opportunities for change rather than problems. Oh, I like that, yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02:And hence why you were here last time because you you spoke about the development of the immunity product because you were involved with that, and obviously you're involved with the development of the cow recovery. But I guess, James, let's go back to you. How did it all start? I mean, from my point of view, you know, my early some of my earliest memories are cow down, down a cows are always a problem. And I mean, I'm talking when I was very young, so 40-45 years ago, probab but probably back of no one had telehandlers then, back of a buck rate with a pallet on, trying to roll her on, and obviously things have progressed. But tell us your story for how you got to where you are.
SPEAKER_01:I think I think frighteningly, I think it started uh really, really um nearly over 45 years ago for me. So so so um in one of the stories I I I tell is it so at primary school, uh um a friend drew a picture of myself, a cow in a speech bubble with the phrase, I I love my cows, and and and I truly believe that um at the heart of every dairy farm is somebody that loves their cows. Um the just because we have a dai cow on a given day doesn't mean to say that love's not there, we're just having a bad day, in the same way that the human population also experiences uh um problems and and require the services of an ambulance. So so um the story sort of progresses. Um we we we had uh a very strong pedigree Charlie bull uh when I was about uh 12 or 13 and and um unfortunately had some hard cowings there, so experienced uh too many dang cows and some cesareans. Um and and then at the time the solution was uh we we went out and bought some pedigree heifers from uh uh the the Brecon Beacons and thought we could then go about um solving the problem by breeding easy cowing pedigree Charleys. Um 30 years later we decided that was an absolutely stupid idea. Um they may have got easier, but they still weren't easy by any means. I mean, so so in that 30-year period, unfortunately, I I gained too much uh um experience of of moving problem animals in in dealing with the aftermath of a more difficult carving. Um so every everything we do on the farm, we we we do prevention rather than cure, and and and I also strongly believe in um reasons, not excuses. So if there's a problem, come up with a solution and then move on to the next one. Um and I've been talking about the I I've done some RD stuff with Tesco, which was uh that that was a fun process to do because you met some of the movers and shakers in the dairy industry, um, and lucky enough to go up to Liverpool University and uh work with Rob Smith. And I think I think it sort of um broadens your mind. And then on the on the back of that, I I had I did get a bit of a scholarship out with Tesco's and did some travelling, uh some sort of agri-tourism and went to Australia and New Zealand and Brazil and did an intensive dairying course in Wisconsin. Um and it you you come home with uh with open eyes and and question uh everything that's going on on the farm. And then we also uh uh started working with Synergy. We were just saying, Rachel went me how long ago that was, and I I think it was approximately 15 years ago. Um and part of the process of working with Synergy is that we we sat down annually and and review everything that's happened and go through the figures and then question whether what we're doing is right or wrong, you know, and whether we can improve and make subtle changes that make our lives and the cows' lives easier, um, which is a process I really really enjoy because I want healthy, happy cows and healthy, happy people on my farm. And I I want an easy life as well. You know, I I I don't I don't want to be dragging big calves out of cows.
SPEAKER_02:And let's be honest, when you're doing the routine, it's good. It what takes the time is those sick cows, those down of cows. That's what takes the extra time, isn't it? Is when you've got problems there, that can create an extra half hour, hour in your day where you could be doing other things and also makes staff yourself oh I don't know agitate, is that the right word? I don't know, because you're doing you're doing something you don't necessarily want to be doing, because it's it's never an easy experience when you've got a sick, 700 kilo cow that you've got to try and try and move.
SPEAKER_01:And and and I think also another part of the story is is um unfortunately brother uh had a very nasty dose of Lyme's disease, so needed serious antibiotic um treatment to get on top of that. Consequently, I I I was running around a bit too much. I got pneumonia, or I needed some antibiotic. So I got I got and then linking all that with Tesco's drive to reduce antibiotic usage, it all brought it home to me that so I'm now a fully signed up member of uh uh an antibiotic guardian. I I don't do a lot, but I've I'm really passionate about antibiotic reduction and and and read read the One Health report, which you know enlightened me as to although it was, I think it was gathered 2014 to 2018, some of the data, but but but if if you looked at the facts and figures of the antibiotic usage across different species and even humans, the the reality is is is is that the the dairy industry wasn't perhaps as bad as people thought it was. And then if you break it down into um the the use within synergy and then our own use, we were we're really in a very good place. And but but perhaps we don't talk about it enough, but but I don't think I think we should be really proud of our we should.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, we we did a podcast, was that February with Catherine. Well, she was Kings Hay at the time about the antimicrobial report from Kings Hay. And it is when you look at the the dairy industry, how we've dramatically reduced our antibiotic use, it's a phenomenal story.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then and then so so the car recovery thing, it sort of all brings it all together, really, because the um you know if if a lot of a lot of the uh injuries occur uh occur in animals that mean they have to be moved on, a lot of them can be secondary injuries through bad movements, and yeah. And it's not it's not blaming uh the operators or the people on farm. They're in a very difficult position with a very heavy animal, possibly on their own or with limited time, they're under a lot of pressure. So so the going back to the reasons, not excuses, um put put a piece of um apparatus on farm and the training that Rachel's uh developed so that the the industry can act in a more professional, responsible way and reduce those secondary injuries and then reduce antibody usage and protect the industry and all in the image of the industry.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that image of the industry is really important, isn't it, James? I think you know we've all seen some of the footage that comes out of farms of of what um yeah, just isn't perhaps the best handling. And you know, when we provide training and as you say, equipment to make that that movement of cattle so much better for both humans and cattle, it's so important.
SPEAKER_01:And really, so so some of the criticism part of it it really, really upsets me. And um in the the it but equally have a look at that criticism and and take use it as an education, don't don't take offense from it and see if we can come up with solutions that because some of the criticism is is valid, some of it's nonsense and overate, but some of it is valid.
SPEAKER_02:So so well, yeah, just just because we're used to it doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing.
SPEAKER_01:No, so so and I we're talking very openly and I uh openly in public, but but the the so so the impetus for car recovery really came on it was Valentine's Day 2022, okay. Panorama aired a programme of animals being hip hoisted out of cubicle passageways. Um and I felt really, really upset for the farm, really. Yes, yes, probably it wasn't the best thing to be done done there, but I can understand how that process had evolved and happened because people are, like I said, in a difficult position. They're trying to do the best.
SPEAKER_02:But hi hip hip hoists have a place sometimes, don't they? But it's it's you're probably, yeah, well, I've seen them used to literally carry the cow just from the hip hoist, and that that just doesn't isn't the right thing.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Are we calling it the wrong word? Is it that it shouldn't be a hoist, it should be more of a support? Is that perhaps in the naming of how we call these these things?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think um actually that's our next piece of work is we want to really um bottom out acceptable and unacceptable uses of hip hoist because uh they can be incredibly useful pieces of kit and they can be terrible pieces of kit. Absolutely not. The the the animal should always be um in contact with the ground, yeah. Always weight bearing and and not being used to move them.
SPEAKER_02:It's like most things that uh used correctly, that they have a place, but it's used when they're used incorrectly, like you were saying uh what you saw in Panorama, that then that causes an issue for the industry, isn't it? And and it gives the wrong image of the industry, and we want a positive image for our industry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it it it so so and then it's not just about a positive image, it's it is very much about the bruising side of things. So if if if if an animal's been poorly handled with a hip hoist, and then you go and do Rachel have done loads of post-mortems, won't you? And and and I I I fell down and unfortunately broke my ribs a couple of years ago feeding the cows, the the the commit the sort of comedy sketch where your feet go beneath you and you you you drop four, I only dropped four steps, but but yes, I was rolling around in the crud, uh bawling my eyes out for a couple of minutes, that you know, the pain of it, and then my torso was was black and blue. Um, you know, I I I thought uh a good thing to do. I like sea swimming, so I thought I I I'd I I'd go in a bit of cold water, a bit a bit of swimming would help. I I nearly drowned because I was unable to move my body, you know. So is it is it is it any wonder that those cows that have been bruised never never get back to their feet because um they uh it's it's no different than a than a human that's in pain. You avoid things that are hurting you, don't you? So if it's gonna hurt the animal to stand, she won't stand.
SPEAKER_02:So I've got to be honest, I've noticed like breaking concrete a lot more. I broke my ankle last November and prior to that didn't notice it. But when I've been on farm or dish things and you find that uneven concrete, it's like now I can understand it a lot more because my the I feel it nailed in a way I didn't used to.
SPEAKER_04:But going back to your point about that panorama programme, James, I mean the problem was I think that we can all look at something and say that that's wrong, but there was a massive vacuum there. There was nobody explaining clearly what was right and and providing those solutions. So and that was really the feeling that came out of that, wasn't it? That was that you felt you needed to provide the solutions.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I and I've spoken to lots of farmers and and vets what since I've been doing this, and and but I I I I and I don't ever want to vilify farmers that have done that because I understand how that's happened, because they've they've moved an animal two foot to the straw yard, then next week they're they're going ten feet in in a before you know it, you are moving and you're in a very drift difficult position, possibly on your own at four o'clock in the morning, you've got to get on and milk the cows. So I I talk about we have worked um with the people that advise uh part of that advise the fire brigade, don't we? And so in the different nice uh part of the discussion is if a if a fireman pulls a horse out of a ditch, he's a he's a hero. But if a farmer pulls a cow out of a similar situation, he's a villain, and you've got to understand the thought processes behind it and love its imagery and the professionalism in which it's done. So that's what we're trying to bring to cow recovery is a level of professionalism in the way so that so you're you've put and it's been it really it's been good fun, hasn't it, working together? Because I come from the farmer's side and Rachel comes from the the vet side, and we have a little wrangle occasionally as to what what's appropriate, what's acceptable, and what's right, you know, and that's but but it's better to do that, isn't it? And then come come to the industry with a package of so why why so I employ lots of um 16, 17-year-old lads and girls, and they're they're absolutely brilliant, you know, they're so enthusiastic and work their socks off for me, and I'm very, very lucky to have them. But equally, so why not condense all of my learnings and not just my learnings, but everybody's learnings so into a into a half-hour training programme, maybe a longer training programme, but something that then prevents them from making all the mistakes that I've possibly made over the years whilst I've been learning the best way of doing things. And and even it and this is why it's important to work with Rachel, because maybe some of the things that I I'm now doing have I mean I have 30 or 40 years experience, maybe they can be improved upon, can't they? Because everybody can if we come if we come together, we can potentially move things forward in in the best way. Just because you've done them for 40 years doesn't mean then necessarily the right thing. Well, no, you you you you become you think you're you're a self-proclaimed expert if you're not careful. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:You become blinkered to to thinking that what you're doing is the same as what you were doing 40 years ago, but actually, as you say, it might have just changed each year, and now it might be terribly different from how you learnt it.
SPEAKER_01:You need to keep your mind open, don't you? And to make the thing as best as possible.
SPEAKER_03:It goes back to two heads are always better than one. So that that you know cooperation between the two of you and and actually getting it having those conversations and getting it right is is how it should be.
SPEAKER_01:But I mean it's sometimes there are arguments. Sometimes they're not always going on discussion. But there we are. Sorry, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:But but that that that was your impetus was the panorama program back in 2022. So we're talking just over three years ago. How did it go from there? What because I guess by now, as I say, I started by saying, you know, I remember starting the back of a buck rate 40 odd years ago. Most farms, not all, but most farms now have a telehandler. They now have the big buckets, done it myself. You roll the cow into the bucket because it's easier to move, but you've obviously progressed. I'm guessing that was your starting point, was your bucket on your telehandler. And how did you then progress in the last three years to the product you now have on in the market today?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so I think it's important to say we we'd done a lot of work with synergy to minimize our our incidences. We sorted like most of our metabolic disorders. Um we'd also grooved a lot of the concrete and and done heat maps to work out where the problems were. We try not to feed hungry cows at the feed face to prevent shoving, and we're very careful about introducing animals into groups so that they they don't uh knock each other around too much.
SPEAKER_02:So we've still have some down accounts.
SPEAKER_01:Inevitably, everybody does in in every single dairy farm in the country will at some point whether they're large or small, they will have an incident this year, almost a hundred percent because the same way that the human pole population, every town and every city and every village will have an incident where they need an ambulance. So it's not don't it's no surprise that a a dairy farm needs is needs uh an ambulance occasionally. Um so how did it evolve? We I did have a big bucket, it was it was a big bucket and grab. I had a method that you know we're busy, we were milking four, so I had two people in the parlour, me outside, scraping up, feeding, that sort of thing. If you you the the milkers were never keen to come out and help because they that interrupts their milking process, they get mucky, they get dirty. It's not it's never an a pleasant process rolling a big heavy cow into a bucket. Um, so I I I developed a method of doing it by myself with a halfer and a rope wand and and and using the grab to roll her back in, but it wasn't repeatable, it wasn't something you could let other people do. It was it really it was a bit too risky. I never had an issue doing it, but no, but with a grab potentially Yeah, I I you have to emphasize the grab was not used any in any way to touch the cab, but it was still used to open up and roll her back in. But but in in visually, it didn't look great, I say. So you're already dealing with a stricken animal. So but but if you're in put in you know put in a difficult position, how it's far better to move her at four o'clock in the morning half past four than wait till eight or nine o'clock when you had enough people because um she wants to be she wants to be on a straw yard. She needs to get off the hard concrete, yeah. Muscle necrosis sets in quite early. Is it absolutely true?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, muscle damage within within a couple of hours.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it's not it's not just muscle damage if you know cows. I mean as a herb uh a cow man, I spend my whole life look looking at cows, don't I, in studying cows. And in um also I've got four children, and I look at my children and study children a little bit. So so you uh some of it is physical, but some of it's psychological. If a cow tries to scrabble around on concrete and fails, she gives up. So if you can get her off of concrete quite quickly onto a nice warm, dry bed with sure footing, um you in and then when you do lift her, she's you you've got you've you've and she stands, she's got confidence. But if you if you lift her on concrete and she slips and goes, it's it's exactly the same when you're dealing with an old person that's slipped down in a bathroom. If if you can get that the golden hour and and get them into a a recovery, uh hospital warm bed rather than leaving, unfortunately, some people end up on co on the bathroom floor for 12 hours, don't they? And that's never good, is it? That's a bad scenario. The recovery so the golden hour is definitely proven in human medicine that the outcomes are that much better, and it's the same for a cat. If you can get the right treatment of that animal without incurring further damage, then you will. I I do tell a story, and I don't know if I don't know if Rachel tells but but if I if I have an accident on the way home, I I hope that a relic bit ambulance arrives quite quickly with well-trained professionals that then don't make my life better and not make it worse. Well, if and that's what we're trying to achieve with cow recovery for the every cow on our farms, isn't it? Really? We don't we don't want to make the situation worse. So how many, I guess, prototypes were there?
SPEAKER_04:Well, there was just the one to start with, wasn't there, James?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Uh and and he he bought it I think you trialled it once or twice.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Uh that's the thing, it's not like you can just trial it whenever is it you've got to wait, I suppose, for that unfortunate event that you have a down a cow that you you have to use it. You can't just go, hey girl, why don't you go down so I can practice on you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And and and really, uh so so the the the the I I I went out and bought a secondhand uh uh bucket, uh adapted it with the help of uh Chris Cox, the local and uh in engineer, and and uh uh Edwin Parrot, another, you know, the um it's it's a relatively simple piece of kit, but it works well. Um simple or simple's always best anyway. Um yes, so so I I did make the first one and then waited until I had one in you know one Sunday morning. I don't get many lions, but I I I was having a lion in my daughter rang. Um there was one down first thing, so half past four in the morning, really cold, frosty morning. Um in and I was never excited so excited to have a down cow, but I I went out and and uh in in and and amazingly everything worked a hundred it she loaded exceptionally well. Um and and then put her out in the in in the field on uh again on the left her there for a couple of hours. I think within half an hour she she got herself back up, if you suit, I mean good young cow, and the next day she was back in the herd and and carried on to lead a full productive life. Um yeah, that but to be to to put it into perspective, the the method I used originally, uh so the piece of apparatus hasn't changed, but working with Rachel and then some of the big farms in Dorset, we we we had to evolve and adapt the technique, didn't we? So so the roping and strapping technique. So so the actual physical product hasn't changed a great deal. No, but the methods, yeah. So we none of us had ever done it before, have we? So we had to make sure that we evolved the process. But that all those herdspeople, uh some of those herdsmen, they've been absolutely fantastic, haven't they? And they they've all helped video, they've videoed a lot of loadings, haven't they? And then we've then been able to appraise and tweak the method, haven't we? Which has been brilliant.
SPEAKER_04:The the first thing that we did was uh um after a lot of chatting and looking at your initial video footage that you had taken, which was great, um, was we we teamed up with uh Jim Green from the British Animal Rescue and Trauma Association, who's really, really uh skilled in this area, but he's used to doing it with lots and lots of help and lots and kit and all the time in the world. And it it it did um he was very helpful to us, but it took him a while to realise that these animals are being dealt with by um one or two people and it has to be done quickly. Um so if you've left them there for a couple of hours away, you wait for the help to arrive, you've already lost the battle. So um it was a quite a different situation we were talking about. So we we actually kind of workshopped with him, didn't we? Perfecting the technique, and we went over and over um actually with a with a recently euthanased cow and just got the technique absolutely, so we were all confident.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was gonna say that this made me think what you've just said, James. The fact that the people involved yourself and others took the time to video it. I mean, to be honest, you that would have been the last thing in the back of my mind. Well, I've got a down cow. Oh, I must video this so that James and Rachel can go and take from it. My thought would be on the cow, but I mean the fact that these people were um engaged to do that is as massive.
SPEAKER_01:We are we are working with some really, really good people like that. Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong. They have a they they're all it goes back to the thing about um the the love of cows. You know what I mean? And in the people that that that are dealing with those animals, and it doesn't matter if you're you're milking a hundred or two hundred or three hundred or or two thousand cows, those people that there are people that that love and truly care their cows. And I I in and perhaps I perhaps people think that the word love is but we we do as as herdsmen and dairy farmers, we dedicate our entire lives to uh the care of our cows, you know. And you know, I'm almost ashamed to say it, but you know, but but if I used to go away, sometimes when I came back, I used to go and check my cows before I went to saw my children. Do you know what I mean? And it it but it's it's that James, you're you're preaching to converted here, trust me. But but but but that's that's how that the level of care, you know, in and and um and it's not in in it it's not wishy-boshy love, you know. Love's not perfect in any way, is it? You know, that you we we all we all know that don't we? It's uh it's uh but but but to get to to to to have that level of dedication, you know, the the you talk about uh if a if a lame cow comes in on Christmas morning, you you you sort a foot out before you then go and have your breakfast in you it's it's all that type of thing that well perhaps perhaps people don't realise as as my ex-wife was told at the time by a neighbour, it's marry him, marry his cows, and the cows come first, you know.
SPEAKER_02:So totally totally with you there. But it's still that's what I mean. It's the point is though they made the effort to make the video because to me I'd be going, cow. I wouldn't be then going, Oh, gotta think about videoing it.
SPEAKER_04:Actually, that's been a crucial aspect of this whole project. So once we got to the point where we had where we were running the study and we We put 15 of these devices out on farms up and down the country. Really proactive farmers who who signed up to help. And a lot of them videoed the them using it. And that is such a tough thing to do. It's not an easy um procedure when you're doing it.
SPEAKER_02:Essentially, someone to be criticizing potentially what you're doing as well.
SPEAKER_04:It's the last thing you feel like doing when you're in that situation. Is is is firstly it's an extra person. And and secondly, it's very exposing. But what we found was that the learnings that you can get from looking back at a video, even their own movie, you know, their own loadings, you can look back at the video and go, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I should have done this or I should have done that.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And that that includes me as well. You know, I've done some loadings. I don't necessarily at the beginning, I wasn't getting it right every time, you know. And it's um because you're you're you're again you're still working in a pressurized situation. But but if you if you have a um best practice um method of operating, it it it even if people just deviate slightly from that, we're still in a far better place than we have been originally.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, yeah, nothing's gonna go. Oh, we're dealing with cows, nothing's ever going to go perfectly. They're not a static um block of wood or something that they're going to move, behave in a way that you don't expect to to say not necessarily allow best practice to happen every time.
SPEAKER_03:So for people listening to this that haven't actually seen the cow recovery, what um what modifications have you actually made to the bucket before we start talking about maybe the technique of bringing that cow into the bucket? What what modifications have you made to it? Sort of build that picture so people can visualize.
SPEAKER_01:It is pretty simple. It's like so the front leading edge, which on the standard buckets always razor sharp from going on the concrete, that's been rounded off. It was it was felt very important from the beginning that it was a designated singular use piece of kit, so not you're not able to use the bucket for other purposes because once you start using it for other purposes, you sharpen the blade up and you're back to square one. Um it's rubber lined on the back and the sides to stop any impacts, and then the rubber also stops people from using it for other purposes. There's a a reeling mechanism on the top, which uh on my original one was adapted from a foot trimming crush. So so um so it it is a it's a it's a it's a very simple um bar and ratchet mechanism. But we originally had a a starting handle propulsion, didn't we? We've gone to a steering wheel mechanism for um safety sake more. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04:That was one of the learnings from our study, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01:I thought someone got hit, was it? No, no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_04:Heaven forbid it was a identified it as a possible miss.
SPEAKER_01:But in all honesty, I I I probably it it if a heart knew a steering wheel mechanism was the better option, but you try making a steering wheel in the workshop. Uh a crank handles are much easier to do if you so but but all the farmers um the they they've worked with us, haven't they, in in that stage? Other other than that, really, the uh the main thing is or a part of it is is the is the um paint the the paint job. So that is it yes, some people take the mick for being a bit over the top, but I think when people when people understand what we're doing, it's very obvious from anybody viewing from afar that we're operating in a professional way, and and the intention is we recover the animal. So we move her to uh the the recovery pen and she recovers. So that's that's uh we tried to find a singular name for it, didn't it be but cow recovery encapsulates it all? Um so though and then the green cross on cross on the side is is is a a very simple way of conveying the message and that first aid that we're we're you know we're very OFA with that green cross, aren't we? Across the when I when I Google bit to find out if I could use the green cross, I I find out that uh Michael Michael Gorbachev had used it in 1994 as the beginnings of sustainability movement, and and I think it fits nicely. It is what we're doing is part of sustainability, we're we're reducing waste and we're protecting the image of the industry. So um I think it fits nicely.
SPEAKER_04:We also produced and we we designed our own straps, didn't we? That we thought were more comfortable.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, we so so I've uh yes, it it all sounds very simple, but when you start going back about how long it took to sort things out, so so um get getting the right clips and the right straps. So the initial uh stainless steel clips we used had a little a non-stainless spring and they lasted two minutes. So we but we we've now there's a there's a channel we saw bustles down in in in Weymouth that make the ropes and the and and the clips, and also the the straps are actually fabricated by someone on Portland. So um, and then he even even to the extent of making sure that the halter we use is not a uh a cotton one that rots, it it's a nylon one that so there is a little box, so the other act uh bit is there's a little storage box on the back, and um that everything that should be with it is should be with it. I am a chaotic uh idiot of a man in the if it you know, I I I think I I I live in a house with uh with several children and two grandchildren, and I count myself lucky by phone my toothbrush in the morning. So so so but but when you've got a dang cow, uh it should the the the system needs to be there ready to go. You don't need to like when you carve a cow, you want to know those ropes are there where they should be. You haven't got half an hour to go and gather everything up, it you just got to go. So so that's the idea of and and and there's also a a now there is a uh A4 um laminated sheet with a a nine-stage program that Rachel's created. So that and uh um would you want to explain that side of it?
SPEAKER_02:I was gonna say I'm assuming it can fit on any telehandler, just put the appropriate brackets on and away it goes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, when when when people order, we need to know the width because we can go seven foot six, seven foot uh the standard is seven foot six. Um, but but there's people putting full size cows in seven foot brackets. I think if you've got narrow passageways, smaller cows, uh potentially we can go narrower. It's very easy for orbit engineering to manufacture your specifications. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But actually the crucial part is there's the kit and then there's the the technique for using the kit.
SPEAKER_02:And we did feel that so so how early on did you come into it, Rachel?
SPEAKER_04:So right at the beginning. Right at the beginning. And actually, you know, James brought his his prototype into the practice early on and and wanted to know what what our vets thought about it, and we we had conversations right from the start. Um, and you know, our first reaction was absolutely this is a fantastic idea. It needs it needs to happen, but let's make it foolproof, let's make sure we're doing it properly, and then we need some evidence to show that we we think we're on the right track, we need to show that we are on the right track and that we've got this right. So I James is very sort of wants to crack on and and and progress to the next and I actually persuaded you, didn't I, to to the a 12-month study where we rolled it out and recorded really carefully um the outcomes and and the experiences.
SPEAKER_02:And again, as I've already said, you you've got to wait for that down account rather than just go and try it, haven't you? And the last thing anyone wants is a down a cow.
SPEAKER_01:The bit the bit we haven't mentioned is the is that so Rachel and I have driven probably thousands of miles doing this, haven't we across the country? But but but we we managed to get ourselves a um Innovate UK grant, yeah, which uh um helped fund the trial process, didn't it? Um uh in and and uh yeah, so so um that for people that don't know Innovate UK, it's uh it's an opportunity. So so I I I I I I came up with an idea, but to bring it to market was going to cost me some money, but it has cost me quite a significant amount of money. But but but yeah, Innovate UK will help, and they will help with advice and and finances. It's quite a process doing the application, and that's where again where Rachel came in because you've done other projects, haven't you? And uh I I I didn't want to I'm I'm I'm not a clerical man, do you know what I mean? So do you want to explain a little bit more about it?
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely, and and we were lucky that you know the these grants were being made available at just the right time for us. But it was it's called the farming innovation programme, and it was a research starter grant, so it was absolutely aimed at the sort of thing that we were trying to do. Um and it part funded um the the time, uh part funded some of the kit costs, um, which enabled us to get 15 out on 15 dairy farms. Um, and we had we were really lucky uh with who who was wanting to engage with us on that.
SPEAKER_01:We had some big high profile farmers, didn't it?
SPEAKER_04:And a lot of cows between them as well. Yeah. Because we obviously you need caseload. It's nobody putting them on a farm that's gonna have one down a cow in the year.
SPEAKER_02:You want the bigger farm, so unfortunately more likely to have more it's just the numbers game, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's not percentage-wise necessarily more, but because of the scale. That's it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I think for any farmers listening to this that uh that might have their own innovation in their minds, um, I think there's some more grant funding just been released now. I think some was released um in September. Um, and there's some more, I think, now under that FIP grants. So it's slightly different, but there is still research, bringing research onto farm and that kind of thing. It's about 12 million dollars.
SPEAKER_04:There's there's um there's adopt grants which are available and and they they have to be farmer-led, uh, which is great in the sense that it's really important that the research that is funded is things that that farmers want and farmers need, but it's quite an undertaking for a farmer to lead a research project like that.
SPEAKER_03:That's why I think you need to partner up and yeah, and I think that these grants do bring those partnerships together, which is really good.
SPEAKER_04:Bring facilitators together with farmers.
SPEAKER_01:But the the analogy I use, and so so I have the the day before I I did a thing up at Dairy Tech on the Innovate standard the day before I had my favourite holy woolly jumper, we have moths in the carpet, so I had my favourite holy woolly jumper on. And then um the the the analogy I use is that is the fatter I get, the the bigger the holes get, and the more obvious the get the holes become. And in and but it but so if if farmers had an idea, so so cow recovery was one of the things for plugging the the holes in the in the dairy industry, and the further the dairy industry is pushed and the tighter the margins become, though those holes become more and more obvious. So if if farmers have got solutions to one of the holes within the dairy industry and they have an idea, for goodness sake, bring it to the fore, because we're in charge of our own destiny in the dairy industry.
SPEAKER_02:And it's better that it comes from uh I'm not gonna say grassroots sounds the wrong word, but comes from the ground up rather than above down, if that makes sense, because you're solving a problem on a farm. A real problem, yes, a real exact yeah, a real problem, not a potential problem.
SPEAKER_01:You're solving a real problem with real answers, and that's what's and I wouldn't be messing around with this if if it was just okay. It has to be good. Uh you can't you don't invest our time in something that's okay. It's it's is it is very good, isn't it? It it works very, very well in the feedback we get from every user. It's been it I I I say it's humbling. Well, it is humbling, it's been it's been fantastic, Rachel, hasn't it? Really?
SPEAKER_04:It's um this uh So I mean the the the study that we carried out from as a researcher, you know, it wasn't a classic scientific study. We didn't have a control group because we introduced this kit to farm, we trained up all the staff who were likely to be involved in in moving cows. They weren't then gonna carry on using the old method. So every cow from then on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Although obviously it was under their control, it was their decision um how how they how they used it, but that was what happened. So it wasn't a controlled study, but we did record every every incident of a cow being moved. So uh we recorded their experiences, how long did it take, how many people um were involved, um, was it difficult, was it easy, what were the problems, were there any injuries to the people, were there any injuries to the cows? And then we also followed the outcomes of the cows that were moved that way. So we got a really nice data set of about 120 cows that had been moved using this kit. And um, so we were quite confident of if there were going to be difficulties, but what were those difficulties going to be and how should you deal with them? And we were also extremely confident from interviewing all these farmers that they all uh basically love the kit. Um, and and they would not any of them give it up under any circumstances.
SPEAKER_01:You're talking you're talking to very hardened men and women that are dealing with a lot of cows, you know, they're not they're not gonna pussyfoot around. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04:But also, these were all farms that already had good systems in place. Yeah. So they were that those sorts of farms. They were not. They had a protocol. Yeah, absolutely. That's so so when I asked them about what they were doing previously, they could all give me a really good account of how to move a cow.
SPEAKER_02:What were many doing?
SPEAKER_04:So most of them were would would um would be rolling cows into telehandle buckets, but that requires manpower, that usually requires three or four people. Um, so you are often having to call people away. Sometimes, I mean, not all the farms were very large farms, so but if you're having to call people off the milking parlour, that's so disruptive. Yeah. Um, so they were very appreciative of the fact that you could move a cow um with with two people easily.
SPEAKER_01:The classic scenario is you you go out and check around your cows and last thing at 10 o'clock at night, everybody's gone home. So, oh, you find your dying cows. So farmer and wife have to deal with a seven or eight hundred kilo cow. Is it a what is it a one or a two-person? Well, but whether you end up trying to do it by yourself with your wife ready to crowd up, there's usually a bit of uh modest show intention, shall we say? And and and the reality is, is why we we've we've focused and spoken about the health and safety in the care of the cow, but why should uh humans, so the farmer and or his workers, risk their physical health to load a dancing?
SPEAKER_02:The first thing to tell you about first aid, isn't it, is not to become a victim yourself. 100%.
SPEAKER_01:And that's sorry, that that's that's the bit about the when the when the fire brigade deal with an incident, the per the the first priority is the health and safety of the people that are working with it. And my priority when I'm dealing with a danko is the the the the people around the situation because it's a high risk scenario. You're dealing with a heavy animal, machinery all in close proximity. If if if if you're on a building site with a JCP digger, you're told you've got to give it a 15-foot clearance between, or whatever the figure is, I don't. But but I I've had in in doing this, I've spoken to farmers. One one managed to chop a big toe off of a chap where where they craded it down at the wrong moment. I've got a I've got a friend up in Scotland that managed to 10 years ago slip the disc while him and one other were rolling a cabin. So he hadn't had an operation last year to solve that. Well, that's 10 years of back pain just for rolling it. And the the the scenarios and incidences are they're numerous, and and we we need to move away from that. Uh, you know, we we we we put limits on how many how many kilos we're allowed to lift safely these days. Well, but then we go and try and roll a uh 800 kilo carry into the back of the thing.
SPEAKER_02:So how many people can do it now? Is it one or two?
SPEAKER_04:The the technique that we teach that's in the training video is two-person technique. Right. Um, that is really um what you I mean, the trouble with working on farm, isn't it, is that everything should be a two-person technique, and we all know that there's lots of loan working.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was gonna say, can it be done with one person, but that's not your recommendation.
SPEAKER_04:It can very easily be done with one person, but obviously.
SPEAKER_01:Not just one person, my eight stone 25-year-old daughter can now load a seven or eight hundred kilo case safely on on her own using the correct technique. So it but but I do go back to Rachel's point. We we best practice practice is it it really is, you know, it it with you know, um people working alone, it it it can be it you it it was although although we've moved the system forward and we've reduced all those risks, we're still dealing with a uh a stricken animal that moves and well you understand, but yeah, could could could could yeah, right could randomly do something you'll just throw ahead at the wrong time or whatever it happens to be. If if we change the subject, you know, I I I used to work on roofs changing roof sheets. I I never thought I'd fall through a skylight ten years ago. I did, do you know what I mean? But but but I had I had a safety net beneath, I landed in the safety net and and I was back up there in ten minutes. So you always think it'll never happen, but assume that it will one day, because it more likely than not it will happen.
SPEAKER_04:Do you know what I mean but one of one of the big changes, it's not just about the time the number of people required and the time, it's also taking the stress out of it. Um and I think we've all you know rolled a cow into a telehander bucket and it's quite a stressy moment, isn't it? Where where you've got them in and you've got to tip the bucket quick tries to jump out.
SPEAKER_02:Like you talked about sharp edge, you're trying to get in as close as you can without doing any damage.
SPEAKER_01:Sadly, the vets fairly regularly do have to sew a cow up that's had a a nick from that. And then that can lead to antibiotic use. It's a it's a cycle, isn't it? So it's just a role of the case. So prevention rather than cure, it's covering it.
SPEAKER_04:And actually taking the stress out of it um allows people to just be paying more attention to those those adverse events that might happen.
SPEAKER_03:And actually with that sort of feedback loop of you know, a stressful person will stress the animal out and a stressed animal will stress the person back out again. And is it the Hemsworth cycle of can't remember what they call it, but the Hemsworth cycle where we're stressing stressing each other in that kind of situation.
SPEAKER_01:But we had feedback meetings at the end of the trial, and one of the questions was what what what was the first word that came into your head when you when you were presented with a tankey? Most of them are all less words, but not repeatable on the same. Nobody's happy. So so you already approached the situation in a less than good mindset. Yes. Straight away you're you're automatically stressed about it. But if if you have a piece of kit that works well and it in the job becomes less of a nuisance, then your mindset's a bit more positive. You're still not happy to have a dying cow, are you? But but if you can if you can move move it sensibly, it it helps, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, do you do you have any protocols? It's simply yeah, I mean, I know just from my experience, if we ever had a damn cow, first thing we did was put shackles on her back feet. Whether she had splits or not, first thing we always did, and I've never seen them here, but when I was in Oz, we had them, and people go, Oh, they won't work. We took some chain ones that you used to have here, they were velcro straps. So instead of taking minutes, they were on those back two feet within seconds, and they didn't never broke or whatever. But I mean, for us, uh okay, you can tell me completely otherwise, but for one of for us, one of our first things, cow went down in the yard, whether it she'd slipped or whatever it happened to be first thing, right? Shackles on the back feet because they're more likely to you know help get up. Is there something like that in your protocol or is just getting them in the bucket?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I mean, I would agree with you. I think that and and getting the cow in the bucket is a perfect opportunity to put shackles on really easily. Yep. Um, we've actually stayed away from advice relating to shackles in our training, haven't we? Okay. Um, because I think uh farmers now, you know, red track to require a policy on that. It should be in their health plan anyway. There should be there should be a policy uh about that. Um so maybe maybe we in the future we should include that in there, but it's kind of un unsaid. Um, but actually, yes, getting the cow in the bucket is a perfect opportunity to put the shackles on. So that when you when you uh release them into the hospital pen, often the first thing they do is get up, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. It is the whole thing is in is a big it's another debate, really. I I personally haven't used shackles for many, many years because I I I always think the imagery and it's uh is you're almost getting back into the dare I say the slave trade thing, do you know what I mean? And I hate I hate the imagery.
SPEAKER_02:I know what you're saying because I remember there was a guy that worked for our vets in North Queensland and and they did chemicals and he was delivering some chemicals and he saw some on a cow and she'd she'd slip. So again, it just helps me and he goes, Oh, what's that to stop her kicking? No, that's to just to try and help her steady on her feet.
SPEAKER_01:My my preferred solution is is to is to get her off of a slip onto a shore footing surface because shackles are do not benefit a K when they're on a shore footing surface to a large degree. So so if in in in when I'm talking about recovering a K, yeah, she doesn't necessarily recover to come back into the herd. You it the the the more important thing to me is that she recovers well enough to be on a lorry or exactly so we're not paying for her to be moved, but but nine times out of ten our our systems evolved and in in and you you we we we are quite prepared to give her a couple of days off on onshore footing. You have to judging an animal and appraising an animal is quite a somebody needs to make the uh decision as to whether which way you're gonna go with her, whether she's okay to it's a whole it's another thing.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. I mean, and I was gonna say nine times out of ten you took them off straight away because they you put them out on on on ground and they stood up and they were gone. But it was just it was just one of the things we we made as our protocol with any down cow straight on them, and usually within five minutes they're up anyway, but you knew you were covered, it's not like you were trying to mess around later.
SPEAKER_01:It varies so much from farm to farm, the the the choices that people make.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:And I mean, there's a whole piece around nursing, obviously, nursing massively important. There's a big piece around prevention, which is recording when these things happen, and then you can go back and review uh later so that you can go back and prevent. And we've sort of referred to all of this, but uh the training is very specifically just relating to how to use it.
SPEAKER_02:So is the training uh person to person or is it a series of videos, or how is it it's an online course, right?
SPEAKER_04:Um which you can access uh uh for for for free for life when you get the kit. So um you can train your current team.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so if I'm if I'm a farmer, I decide to buy uh a copy, uh a bucket, a care recovery system. So once I've got that, then I've got access to that for the lifetime.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely, and then if you get new employees, they can do the training as well. I I'm I'm personally I'm also a big fan of face-to-face training. I think that there's always a lot to be gained from from being able to have a two-way conversation when you do these things.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_04:Um, so I am hoping that in that actually vets are going to step up to the mark and start offering this training to their clients.
SPEAKER_02:Does it need to be vets?
SPEAKER_04:No, um obviously I'm biased.
SPEAKER_01:I think the the the solution really is is ultimately we we get a few more systems around the countryside with different vet practices involved and then host um group sessions, hopefully with a bit of health and welfare pathway money or what whatever the phrase is from in the way that you know we we we've all been we've we've all done our colostrum management and our selected dry catherapy training. Why not do care of the dying cow or prevention of the gai, encapsulate that with but but if if if we do it on farms that are advocates, um so so you said does it have to be vet training or farmer training? It needs to be a combination of both, I think, because in those meetings you'll have the the vet and then other farmers hopefully get in involved in in and share their experiences, and it becomes a group effort to move the industry forward, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Farmers love to hear from other farmers, you know. In my experience, a farmer saying to another farmer their experience is so much better than myself or perhaps even Rachel sharing that experience.
SPEAKER_01:Whereas if a farmer, if a farmer says it, then it then it also does that.
SPEAKER_04:What I learned from from going around the country training training the farm teams on the use of this um was that there's pockets of amazing expertise all around the country on dairy farms. But this is quite a sensitive area, and these pockets of expertise, they're not being shared, they're not being opened up and talked about. And this this is an area where we need to really make sure that we we're sharing the best practice.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it is because the the classic is when I've been I've done the shows, haven't I, this summer in in Ice uh the Gambit is to to farmers as they walk by. Do you have ever have Danko's? And they all say, Oh no, we never have dynko's. You know what I mean? Well, every we all do, and we all uh eventually admit to it, and we have a really good discussion about things. Do you and it has been quite good fun, really? And but and I have been talking to non-farming people as well at the shows, which is also good. We we have the similar discussions that we've had had today, but but we the um the other bit that you haven't really covered off. You you said um is it's a lifetime uh training. Well, what is the lifetime of recovery system in in in in the financials and and all the rest of it? Well, really, in reality, it's never gonna wear out. We're only ever gonna sell the farmer one because it's uh and it's then there for life. Um and um well, has there been export interest? Uh we have. We've had I I've I've I've I went to America recently. There's a chap over there very keen to get involved. There's um but we we've had inquiries. Um, there was one from Denmark recently, and in every country's different. And in my ambition is is yes, before I die, I get one on every dairy farm in the UK. I'm I'm I there's less and less dairy farms and I'm getting older, so perhaps one day we'll we'll meet in the middle. But but why why not try and uh it's not just the UK problems, but but but but yes, why not try and solve the UK force because first because um we live in a competitive world now. There's other there's uh other countries would dearly like to put the their their produce into us. Um we and why not make why why not make the UK uh the leading uh dairy uh welfare uh centre of the world, you know? Have a little bit of ambition and pride and uh we are good, aren't we?
SPEAKER_03:So for those farmers listening, and I guess it's just as suitable for a beef farm as it is for uh for a dairy farm, um, you know, what's the crux of it? How much how much does one of these units cost?
SPEAKER_01:And and and so the truth is we haven't sold one to a beef farmer yet, but I have had a very large um uh Aberdeen Angus steer and a huge uh animal in it very successfully. Um but but yes, every cow is is very valuable now. Um Kike um uh one of the consultant groups co quotes three and a half thousand pounds for a cow that leaves the herd early in early lactation. Uh whether you believe that figure or whether you half the figure, that's still a lot of money. It's a lot of money, and and and and the system is um so we're we're selling it for for£4,995 delivered to your farm, all but engineering are making it for us. They're a very high level, they're beef and sheep farmers themselves, so they understand what we're doing and then and they they make high quality kit and have a very good reputation. And they they will deliver that anywhere in the in the within the mainland UK for us. The export bit that's a whole new can of worms and is is an interesting one in in in the we haven't really tackled that yet.
SPEAKER_03:But so so just keeping two or three cows on farm that nest that wouldn't necessarily have stayed on farm after they've been down a cow's, yeah, it's paid for itself.
SPEAKER_01:It has really.
SPEAKER_03:And and that that I mean what you can't get that sort of return on investment in many places, can you?
SPEAKER_01:No. Uh farmers are notoriously tight, but but we we are gradually, gradually getting there, and and uh in in hopefully word of mouth, because the truth is so so, for instance, testimonials. Um the one of the members of press is going to go around and do some testimonials, and I've we've been able to give them every single person that's purchased one because everybody has very nice things to say about it. So we're we're fairly confident we'll get some nice testimonials going on.
SPEAKER_03:I got quite excited when I saw one on farm the other day.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and and and and you told me about that. And the truth is that that one, I I I had a phone call and I delivered it on farm, and then you you've come to me telling me that they're very, very happy.
SPEAKER_03:So that's and and they were telling other farmers how happy they were with it.
SPEAKER_01:And that's that demonstrates that without me or my prompts or not face-to-face training, they've used the the the online training and they're they're getting on very successfully. So that that's a big success for my in my book, you know.
SPEAKER_03:And that's what it's about. So can you tell us a little bit more about the the training video and what that entails and sort of how that fits into so we we um we turned the the training into a nine-step technique for using the kit.
SPEAKER_04:So it it sounds um it sounds probably more complicated than it is once you've you've gone through it. It's actually very straightforward, but we're trying to make it very kind of clear so that there's not a mission slip. Um and but we've put the work into getting that technique right. Um and the it's it's available on our online training platform. So if you if you buy the kit, you automatically get access to that. From our point of view, we see a big future in sort of professionalizing the industry, um, increasing everyone's skill levels. So um Synergy actually runs an online training platform for farmers, and we cover a whole range of topics. So we also have um a course on Dana Cow management, which which is unrelated to cow recovery, but it touches on all of these other issues about nursing, um, about assessing down a cows, about um the you know, with annual review and prevention, uh, and also um there's a lot of in of useful stuff in there about additional moving techniques. Because when I went around um talking to farmers when they when they got the um the cow recovery devices, they were all so positive about the using that device for for the moving cows, but they all said yes, but what about what about when this happens? What about when that happens? How do I get the cow to the point where I can put her in the bucket? It's that accident in the parlour or something like that, isn't it? And so there was still this massive demand um for extra solutions. So we've got a we've actually got an online course that covers a lot of those, and um, and a lot of that we've got to thank um Barter for uh because they've got a lot of expertise in this area, but there's also a lot of pharma specific knowledge that. Gone into it as well. Um, but but I were actually hoping to do another research project where we workshop um where we get we've got sort of five engaged farmers who want to be involved in this six, I'm gonna get that wrong. But we've got a work a working group of farmers who are going to basically provide us with every every scenario that pops up.
SPEAKER_02:So there is a continuing development there.
SPEAKER_04:Um absolutely, and then we can provide between the farmers and the expertise of data and our veterinary expertise, we're gonna workshop what those solutions are. So we see this as massively important, but also part of the bigger picture as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the whole the whole um ambition really is that if an incident occurs, so it's a bit like the training with a car recovery system, if an incident occurs, there's not a mad panic and people scratching their heads, we could try this, we could do that. So that people aren't making it up as they go. So there's just a tried and tested process and protocol, so it's a cool, calm procedure, isn't it? That's what we're trying to involve.
SPEAKER_04:And everyone says, you know, oh, that was an emergency. I I just did what I could at the time. But a lot of emergencies you could have predicted that sooner or later it was going to happen. You might not know it's gonna happen that week, but you could guess that it was gonna happen at some point that year. And so those those situations we should be able to predict have have the the procedure in place already, and have that best practice as to how to deal with it. Yeah, and and yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, because at the at the moment at home, if if an incident occurs, the natural reaction is get dad. Do you know what I mean? What happens if dad's not there? Or you know, you have to enable younger people to have the experience and capabilities that perhaps dad's got or not got there, but do you know what I mean? It's it's that process, isn't it? Really?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it it it's it's sharing the experience and and and growing the experience of everybody else, isn't it? Because as you say, you've got 40 plus years of of of handling and it's passing that experience on.
SPEAKER_01:And I was about to say it's it's empowering people. Well, the the other part of it is that that you know, we our dairies now, a lot of our dairies run with female labor. Uh the the men on the farms aren't quite as robust as they used to be. So we have to come up with solutions that enable people to achieve the right outcomes.
SPEAKER_02:Let's be honest. I mean, I remember the first woman vet as a kid, and it was, oh, she's never gonna be strong enough, she's never gonna be this, she's never gonna be that, and yet now most vets are women, aren't they? And and you know, the industry's changed. Yeah, yeah, in 40 odd years.
SPEAKER_01:The industry's changed. And I my mindset changed on that, but no, I I was struggling with carving again 15, 20 years ago when I first started with surgery, and I'll name her Emily came out and didn't carved a cow that I was struggling with, and I I she she carved as as a as a young lady, but that it put me in my place, didn't it? So it's but but but not it's not really that because she showed me the technique that she had used, and I then use it myself.
SPEAKER_04:So it's but we also have a lot of people coming into farming without that prior experience, and so there is a greater need for training, and these people they want to do it properly, but they haven't got that background.
SPEAKER_02:I I'd say that with the chaos signals courses I run that the the amount of people now that are coming in relatively green to farming, and and that's what their employer wants, is them to do the chaos signals courses because it gives them a bit more background about why we do what we do, what maybe is better technique, you know, all of these sorts of things come into it. So, yes, I would agree with that comment. There is a lot more people from outside the industry coming into the industry now. And did I read some of it the other day is off the back of Mr. Clarkson?
SPEAKER_01:So is that a good thing or a bad thing? My last sniff is I I've got a a friend of uh a farming friend that's so his partners that realize that people that work with cows they're very good at reading people, and I think it's because we spend a lot of time observing cows. Cows can't talk to us, so we have to understand what the signals are, and that then makes us more capable of uh re hopefully reading such my wife might disagree about hopefully reading reading human signals as well, but which I think it's quite a fun tip.
SPEAKER_02:But on that, I'm just looking at the time and thinking it's time to wrap it up. So um any last words of wisdom from yourself, James?
SPEAKER_01:No, only only um I'm I I've been uh I I really I I genuinely genuinely hope that the dairy, the wider dairy industry engages with what we're doing. I I genuinely believe that we will change change what happens on our farms. Um, and really it's been a privilege uh get getting out onto other people's farms and seeing what's going on and and hearing their stories and and and seeing their enthusiasm for what we're trying to do because um uh it genuines has been it's been they've all engaged extremely well, haven't they? And uh it's it's it just makes you realise how wonderful the people that work in the dairy industry really are. Rachel.
SPEAKER_04:I would second that. I've been blown away by the by the expertise I've come across, but I just think we need to open up, it's a difficult area, we need to open it up and share all the best practice.
SPEAKER_03:I first met James probably two or three years ago at a conference, and we sat next to each other at the conference dinner, and James's passion for his I think you were calling it a cow ambulance at the time, but for for this cow recovery unit just shone through. And I, you know, remembered your name from that first introduction, and it's just your passion is is driving this, and we know there is so much passion within the industry that actually we will be able to make changes on the back of that passion. So I just say let's let's keep talking, let's keep finding solutions and uh yeah, just keep going.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you're right, it is a difficult subject. Anything that's difficult though needs to be talked about to make it progress. And as you say, it happened to be off the back of a panorama program, which didn't put the industry in a great light, but off the back of that, you've then gone on with working with Rachel and colleagues and and other farms to develop this system which has got to be a positive for the whole industry. And as you say, you've had help from Innovate, and and that's a great thing. Um made the comment before we started. There seems to be a lot of innovation in the UK dairy industry at the moment, and and a lot of that seems to be sort of farmer-led or or practical solutions, which is which is fantastic. Um, because there are answers to problems, real problems that people have. Um, so no. So um to and then to finish off, really, is uh I was at the cream awards, and I know you guys won, was it the innovation award at the cream awards this year? So congratulations to you both there. Thank you very much. So so on that, I think it's uh a goodbye from me.
SPEAKER_03:And it's a goodbye from me.
SPEAKER_02:And thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03:Goodbye, thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Tune the Cut Podcast, podcast for the UK dare industry brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness, or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of Tune the Cud Limited. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Tune the Cud Limited, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingstate Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by TuneTheCud Limited, visit www.tuneTheCud.com. Thank you and goodbye.