Reading Cows: Signals That Boost Welfare And Yield

Ever wish you could read a shed like a story? We walk through CowSignals® with vet consultant Owen Atkinson and coach-trainer Jo Speed, showing how behaviour becomes your best advisory tool. From the CowSignals® Diamond (feed, water, light, air, rest, and space) to the way cows actually see the world, we translate subtle cues into practical changes that raise performance and lower stress.

We dig into stress-free stockmanship and the Hemsworth cycle, where human tension fuels animal tension and back again. The fix is not force; it is design and timing. More even light across the shed, clean water with space to drink, feed pushed right to the end of the barrier, and fewer dead-ends all reduce “waiting cows.” That frees up time for eating and lying, which protects rumen health, feet, and milk.

We also unpack why cows prefer to see you with their left eye, how shadows and abrupt steps stall flow, and why quiet movement beats speed. Temple Grandin’s curved handling ideas show up here too, giving teams simple ways to keep cattle calm and safe.

Data now backs the craft. Time-lapse studies and emerging AI tools capture lying bouts, feed visits, and crowding so you can prove that a tweak actually worked. The pattern is consistent: fewer queues, more comfort, better time budgets, fewer lame days. That’s good for welfare, good for people, and good for the bottom line. Most importantly, stockmanship can be taught. The initial CowSignals® course gives everyone—from feeder to vet—a shared language to spot problems early and fix them fast, with advanced modules on handling, transition, fertility, youngstock, and hoof health ready when you are.

Subscribe for more practical dairy insights, share this with a colleague who moves cows every day, and drop us a rating if this helped you see your shed through a cow’s eyes.

For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can email us directly at podcast@chewinthecud.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Hosts, And Winter Chit-Chat
• 3:20 What Is Cow Signals And Why It Matters
• 5:18 Sponsor Notes And Podcast Housekeeping
• 5:55 Guest Intros: Vet Consultancy And Coaching
• 9:39 Origins Of Cow Signals And Global Stories
• 16:05 Lameness, Handling, And People Skills
• 20:03 Defining Cow Signals: Diamond And Health
• 25:30 Training Everyone: From Vets To Tractor Drivers
• 30:18 Practical Courses, On‑Farm Checks, And Lists
• 35:42 Incremental Gains, Sustainability, And Longevity
• 40:03 Waiting Cows, Light, Water, And Time Budgets
• 47:10 AI, Time-Lapse, And Measuring Behaviour
• 52:05 Eat-Rest-Chew Cycles And Rumen Health
• 56:16 How Cows See: Depth, Shadows, And Safety
• 1:02:25 Left-Eye Preference And Calm Handling
• 1:08:20 Can Stockmanship Be Taught
• 1:13:36 Slow Down: Stress Loops And Team Habits

Transcript

Andrew Jones: 0:14

This is the Chewing the Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to the Chewinth eCud Podcast. And with me today is Sarah Bolt. How are you going, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt: 0:39

I'm really good, thank you, Andrew. And how are how are things treating you?

Andrew Jones: 0:43

Yeah, not too bad. Obviously, clocks have changed. I suspect we're all aware that winter is getting closer.

Sarah Bolt: 0:48

I know, those evenings are drawing right in, aren't they? But uh the good news was I have been walking the dog in the in the light for the last few mornings. So, you know, there are some positives.

Andrew Jones: 0:59

Well, I know, it does make it harder getting up. There was me in the summer getting up at five to ride the bike sometimes, and now it's like, oh no, it's too dark.

Sarah Bolt: 1:07

It's a good excuse.

Andrew Jones: 1:08

Yeah, I know, but it's not good enough. Um have managed it at the weekend, so so it's not been so bad. Um anyway, today we're going to talk about something that I'll be honest with you, I'm quite passionate about, to be honest with you. Quite all right, very passionate about. Um we got a couple of other guests. It all came together simply because the three of us um did some uh talks on our recent Ala meetings this year, uh, and we shared between us some of the farms uh the host farms in terms of you know running the stations on different parts in different parts of the country. So I thought it was worth us all getting together and just having a chat about uh today's subject, which is chaos signals. Um and it's definitely something I'm very passionate about. And I certainly think anybody that has anything to do with cows should at least do the initial chaos signals course, even if you're just the guy that drives the tractor. Um if just sorry, uh that's not trying to knock anybody, but even if you're the guy that just feeds and that's your your interaction with chaos is just feeding the cows, I still think it's really important to understand why you're doing what you're doing sometimes.

Sarah Bolt: 2:15

Yeah, see the world just a little bit differently, perhaps a little bit more as a coward.

Andrew Jones: 2:19

Well, yeah, exactly. Exactly, because you you know you might be in that tractor feeding, but you don't uh you still should be there noticing some bullying going on or if something's not right to be able to pass on to whoever's the person that should be dealing with that problem um or that issue. Um so yeah, so just something I really enjoy and really enjoy um I really actually it surprised me that I've been running courses now for a couple of years, the first ones I was really bit a bit nervous of, but now I really enjoy doing them. Really enjoy doing them.

Sarah Bolt: 2:49

And so you should, it's a great topic, isn't it?

Andrew Jones: 2:51

It is, I think so. Anyway, so um hopefully, from my own personal point of view, I'll have some Cow Signals courses uh shortly. Um just got to confirm one or two things, so please keep an eye out for some dates, or obviously sign up on the website and we can be on the mailing list. But otherwise, let's go talk about Chaos Signals. This podcast has been brought to you today by ChewintheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, cow signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. More details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.tunethecud.com or email us directly on nutrition at tune the cud.com. Chewinthe Cud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. More details, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on training @chewinthe cud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt: 4:07

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones: 4:09

And welcome to Chewinthe Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt: 4:13

Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.

Andrew Jones: 4:19

We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.

Sarah Bolt: 4:24

We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself, can it be done differently?

Andrew Jones: 4:29

Listen to us speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise.

Sarah Bolt: 4:35

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Andrew Jones: 4:39

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Sarah Bolt: 4:47

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Andrew Jones: 4:54

Or email us direct on podcast @chewinthecud.com.

Sarah Bolt: 4:57

If you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support. And that's it. Enjoy today's episode.

Andrew Jones: 5:15

Hello and welcome back to ChewintheCud Podcast. And today our guests are Owen Atkinson from the Dairy Veterinary Consultancy Limited and Jo Speed from Jo Speed Coaching and People Development. Hello to you both. Hello. Hello. How is it? I mean, well, here in Dorset, it's a lovely wet day, so uh I'm sure it's probably the same way you are as well.

Jo Speed: 5:36

Yes.

Owen Atkinson: 5:37

It's wet.

Jo Speed: 5:39

I've had my uh warning from the power grid uh just in case we lose electric, which means we probably will.

Andrew Jones: 5:46

Well, fair enough, fair enough. Anyway, anyway, we're talking about the weather again, as Sarah and I often seem to do. So we are here today really to talk about cow signals. Now, um, cow signals has been around for about 25 years. Uh obviously, that was developed by uh Joep Driessen and Jan Hulsen from uh Cow Signals in the Netherlands. Uh, but we thought we'd talk about it today. Um, as uh Jo, Owen, and myself uh recently, or this summer, um did a uh covered some farmer meetings for Arla, uh talking about an aspect of chaos signals. In particular, we talked about stress-free stockmanship. But um, so we thought we'd have a good chat about uh just cow signals and that in general. But before we start, like usual, um Owen, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

Owen Atkinson: 6:34

Yeah, gosh. So um my name is Owen. I um, as you say, uh have dairy veterinary consultancy, which is kind of is what it says on the tin, really. That's my business. And the clue there is the veterinary. I am a vet by trade. Um I was a sort of your regular farm vet, if you like, for the first 20 years of my career. I started my consultancy business in 2013. So for the last 11 years, so I've been doing it for 31 years as a vet. And um and my role now is is not your typical vet role. Um a lot of my work is training consultancy within the dairy sector. My customers are obviously dairy farmers, but also ag businesses, milk buyers, pharmaceutical businesses. Sometimes there's a lot of demand um for training within the dairy sector on all sorts of kind of herd health matters. And um, yeah, that's that's kind of who I am. Who you are? Fantastic.

Andrew Jones: 7:33

And Joe, what about yourself?

Jo Speed: 7:35

Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'm Joe. Um, unlike Owen, my uh holics anonymous.

Andrew Jones: 7:41

I'm Owen and I'm Joe. Sorry, I shouldn't, but you know.

Jo Speed: 7:44

Yeah, and unlike Owen, uh, I don't think my uh business name quite captures uh what I do, but my my background, I guess, uh I was born in a city. Um, I was born in Sheffield, and randomly I wanted to go into agriculture, and that actually took me milking cows overseas for quite a number of years. Uh and on my last job, uh quite a long time ago now, but I was in Portugal on a thousand cow unit, and I retrained as a foot trimmer. And so it kind of took me on a journey. I came back to the UK, um, I researched lameness as part of my dissertation, I did an a field scholarship, and that's what led me into retraining as a cow signals master in 2011. Um, and because I was quite geeky about cow's feet, I guess, and and I just thought, you know, cow signals is another signal that cows are telling us that my feet hurt. So uh, and then I've been doing it probably, you know, on working with farmers, working with discussion groups. Um the coaching part of my business is latterly I retrained as a coach uh and neurolinguistic practitioner. Um, and that that I guess is the hub of my business. I do facilitation, I do coaching, and I do cow signals and the cow handling. So quite a mixed bag.

Andrew Jones: 9:03

Is that what NLP stands for? Is it? I knew you're N LP, but I have no idea what it stands for.

Jo Speed: 9:09

I think it's one of those woo-woo things, isn't it, that you kind of think, yeah, that sounds interesting. What is it? Every day's a school day as ever, Andrew.

Andrew Jones: 9:18

Well, exactly. And I know obviously from the conversations I've had with Jo about uh her becoming an NLP practitioner, you uh I guess it's relevant because you said um Yupp is, didn't you, for the chaos signals and comes in. But I mean, you've already sort of answered one of the questions, I guess, to both of you. Um, what got you into chaos signals? How long have you been doing chaos signals?

Owen Atkinson: 9:39

Randomly, I was in Iran, in Tehran, in 2006, speaking at a dairy conference on mastitis. That's definitely a different story. And Yupe was there. I call him Yupe, you call him Yob.

Andrew Jones: 9:58

Yeah, well, maybe I've got maybe I've got it wrong.

Owen Atkinson: 10:01

It's you know we're talking about the same guy. Now that would be in the early days of the Cal Signals business, and Yup's business partner, as you know, is Jan Holson. And I and um this is not this is a compliment to you. Uh if he if he listened to this, I don't want to take him as a take it at all as a as any other way. But I always see the partnership as a great partnership between Yupe and Jan. Yup being the showman and the communicator, and Jan almost being the brains behind the concepts, because Jan's background was very much um as I learned when I got to know Jan, um in in in he did an MBA, so it was in business management and some of the models that are used in that, and he brought them to life for dairy farmers. And Yupe is such a great communicator, and I heard Yupe speak, and I at this you have to imagine this conference in Tehran. I'd been told to play it very straight. You know, I was in Iran, didn't want to cause any diplomatic incidents, so I was there with my best suit on, borrowed from my father-in-law, no jokes, absolutely stuck to the script. Yup came on stage, bouncing on, no, no toning it down at all for the audience. He was telling dirty jokes, he was he was showing pictures of cows jumping on cows and making all sorts of innuendos uh uh about it, and um all in the spirit of delivering a counter signals training. And and the audience, the audience loved it. I mean, they're all laughing, and it just you know I made uh it made me feel a fool because I'd sort of treated this audience as if they were not human beings, and Jana just treated them as human beings, which of course dairy farms in Tehran are just as they've got the same bawdy sense of humour as they have anywhere else in the world, and they loved it. So that introduced me to the concept of cow signals. I thought it really fitted well with my kind of interests in dairy head health and and and and and being able to discover more about what cows are telling us from different things, and of course that's what cows is about, you know, learning for uh a lot about their environment and their feeding and the management from from what they tell us the signals. So that got me into it, and then I arranged training for myself and a couple of other vets in the UK uh very soon after that in 2007. And I think we were probably the first UK trained cow signals um trainers back in 2007. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Jones: 12:17

Yeah, no, because about but but you're right. I mean, we're just thinking when you think like the cow signals course, and you I know there's a particular picture that I show up when I do it, and you go, where's this? And people go, Well, I don't know, this is just various places, and you go, Well, it's Iran, and they just are amazed that there's this picture of a lovely shed in Iran full of dairy cows. So, as you say, they're they're all over the world. From my own experience of selling cattle to what is it, Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Mexico, China, Pakistan. They all want them, and and certainly Asia and that always wants a more dairy-based diet.

Owen Atkinson: 12:51

And what I love about cows, because I travel, I don't travel as much as I quite like really, but I do travel quite a lot, and it's one of the nice parts of my job. It does get me uh to the I do get the ability to travel a bit. And cows are a common language, and I really learned that in Tehran because it was probably the most, well it was, not probably it was the most kind of um unusual country I travelled to at that stage of my career. And um and I went to a large dairy herd, and straight away I clicked very well with the herds manager who was about my age, and although we were we were sort of his English was better than my Persian, but we we sort of managed to communicate a little bit by mime and and pigeon English, and but we we just found that we had so much in common and the cows were our common language, and the problems that they were seeing on their farm with their cows and the pleasures they got from them as well are just the same as what what I was used to, and that that was brilliant.

Andrew Jones: 13:47

I would back that up because I was remembering a memory to someone the other day actually. I remember being in far north Queensland when I farmed up there, and uh, there's me basically a pom in the top of Australia talking about cows with this Canadian about genetics, and as you say, the the the common language was cows, it's that love of cows that it doesn't matter where you're from in the world, you will find that um ability to communicate with each other because you you love the cows. Um uh Joe, you sort of hinted at a little bit. What about yourself?

Jo Speed: 14:16

Yeah, so um I was I was pretty geeky about cows' feet when I came back from Portugal and I did my degree, I joined Promart and um and I joined AHTB, and that really gave me the opportunity to continue to develop the sort of my lameness passion, I suppose. And uh first thing I probably in 2007 was um I launched the industry Dairy Co Mobility School. Um, and that kind of then thought what am I going to do next? Um, and I got the opportunity through HDB to go and do the cow signals course. And as I say, I primarily did it because I was really interested in my research at Harper actually had been around cow human and cow interaction uh on cow tracks. And um one thing I found was that you can have the best cow tracks in the world, but if you've got poor handling, then you're gonna get lameness. And so it got me really interested in, you know, where do we fit in this then? Because there's obviously more than I'd I'd originally thought about. And uh and I knew that Yerp did the cow signals, and I say Yep, which is different.

Andrew Jones: 15:26

So yeah. Maybe we will get him on one day and ask him what's the best way for or correct way to pronounce.

Jo Speed: 15:38

And I knew Europe was um part of the cow signals is is the people signals course, which is you know, how how do we um facilitate learning? How do you get information across when you're speaking to farmers? And when I was at HTB, I was working as a facilitator. Um that was one of my big jobs there. And so they're together. Um so I was really interested in not only you know the cow side of it, but where do we fit in, and then how do you support other farmers in learning that and taking it on board and making it practical? And and in HDB, we were very much trying to be driven by you know, research into practice and knowledge into practice. So I guess you know it was all of those elements that drove me to do it. Um and then as I say, I've used it probably like yourselves in various ways, working with discussion groups and and various events where I've used it. And as you said, Andrew, more latterly, where we've done uh the roadshow looking at cow handling. Um, but I think the impact on lameness, you know, which is probably still my geeky car interest, um, is is just a really massive part for me when I'm when I'm thinking about um cow signals.

Andrew Jones: 16:58

So some good stories there about where people have uh come from and where they've got it.

Owen Atkinson: 17:03

But we've not heard from you, Andrew, because I I I know I worked for you this summer, but I'm I'm not I'm not quite sure of your backstory on the chaos signals.

Andrew Jones: 17:10

On the chaos signals. Um that's a good question. I think it was probably on my radar when I sort of came back from Oz. So what was that, 2008, as something I wanted to do and was there a long time and it sort of didn't happen, didn't happen, didn't happen. And then in the end, I probably started doing it. I can't remember, I originally did I got um, I expect you guys know Mike Chown. I got Mike Chown to um come and do a course for a group of farmers I was looking after. Yeah, it would have been 2018. And uh, you know, this was a room full of farmers that uh between them had you know hundreds of years of experience, and and myself, you know, worked with cows all my life, and then you sort of went, you went through the course, and it just sort of those moments twig on you, and you go, Oh, I didn't realise, or I didn't know. And you, you know, that the room was full of experience that you just don't click sometimes. And I've had it, I remember the very first course I ran. I had uh a two IC from a farm, literally lean back in the chair halfway through the course, and you could look, you looked at him, you could see his brain going tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And then he suddenly sat up bolt right and went, now I understand why those cows weren't lying that row of cubicles. And you're like, Yep, he's got it. And and I suppose it went from there and I wanted to do it. And I've got to be honest, I did it a bit differently in the end than uh some people. I ended up doing most of it online, um, probably sort of COVID-y sort of time, or was it just before? I can't remember. But I did then have another couple of sessions with Mike over time actually on farm um doing stuff. And I know he first did the first time I ran People Signals, was with he ran it with me and someone else. Um, but like you're mentioning it, Joe. Um that people signals I find brilliant. I've done a number of different ones over the years, but I find the People Signals one, I keep saying I must do it again and never get around to it, is the best one I've uh ever done in terms of reading people and understanding people a little bit more or the interactions of people. It's really, really interesting.

Sarah Bolt: 19:04

I think, Andrew, it's interesting in what you've just picked up there as to um what you're actually looking at when you're perhaps having those discussions with with farmers and and everything else, but sort of going back to basics. Um, you're talking about cow signals for somebody that's not actually come across this uh this term before. What is it? And uh, you know, what is it that you're you're all three of you are so excited about?

Andrew Jones: 19:31

I I I don't know, I suppose that the the I don't know about the other uh Owen and Joe, but I know certainly when I always um start with my presentation when I'm doing the the initial cow signals course, is I always put a quote up there, uh and again I think it came probably from Mike originally and sort of adapted it that basically the best will in the world for me these days as a nutritionist, I can only influence but the best, probably 25% of your production. It's the rest that goes with it, it's the light, it's the air, it's the space. Um I can't remember what the other six are of the diamond off the top of my head now. Sorry. Rest. Yes. Um, but you know, it it's all of those things and the influence that they have. And and as you say, it it's it's the um half the time you don't realize you know it already, isn't it? I think when you when you when you when you when you do the courses with people and then they the light suddenly goes on and it's like you knew they knew it, they just hadn't put it from a cow's point of view. It's looking at things from a cow's point of view to maximize things from a cow's point of view.

Owen Atkinson: 20:33

So we we we call Yop Yup and Yerp three different ways. We're getting we're now we're now gonna define cow signals in three different ways, but in it, but in a good way. I I uh I like your definition and description, Andrew. Um the one I use commonly is just as a very quick headline of what what cow signals is it's learning from the body language of the cows and the herd, and the two different things because the herd shows signals, uh, which are different to an individual cow, uh, in order to improve our management.

Andrew Jones: 21:05

Well, I I mean I know I've added to mine recently, old Gordy Jones was back over here last year, and his quote was milk is the abstinence of stress. And I've now had I've now added that on to my presentation and credit it to Gordy. But it is milk is the abstinence if we get it right, and I guess an example I often use there's a picture of in there of a cow in a pen. And you know, when I grew up, we were building a breeze block walls, what six foot? Well, probably a bit exaggeration. I do know a few like that, but you know, five foot tall or whatever, so the cows couldn't see her herdmates and that. And it's little things like that, isn't it? About seeing their herdmates and they settle better and they can see their mates, and and just little things. They're some of the things are so small, but they make such a difference.

Sarah Bolt: 21:50

Joe, what's your third definition?

Jo Speed: 21:53

My definition. You said it would be different, Iron, and it will be. I think my my the one that's stuck in my brain is seeing life through the eyes of the cow. Um, because I think it's very easy for us to like, well, Yoke calls it oneritis, doesn't he? Where we just get used to seeing stuff. Um, and that's just life. That's not farming or anything, you know, that's just isn't, you know, like driving down the motorway. You suddenly think, did I indicate there when I pulled out? You know, it's the same thing. And so I think seeing life through the eyes of the cow, but not just for the the owners. I think what we stressed when we did the tour this uh summer when we were presenting was you know, it's really important when you're training other people in your business to see life through the eyes of your cows, because actually they don't see like us. You know, they see the world very differently, and the more we understand that, then the better um sort of life cows have and the easier they are to handle, which makes life much easier for us in turn. So it's like a win-win-win-win-win-win-win situation.

Sarah Bolt: 22:59

So picking up on the word that Andrew made uh that used was was stress, and it's not just cow stress, it's human stress as well. And and both of those together, I'm yeah.

Owen Atkinson: 23:10

It's reminded me a little bit another thing I do like about the cow signals concept is uh uh it it's a lot of it's around communicating the science that other people have done, and and um it does draw on the all the knowledge that has been developed around dairy cows from around the world. So so for example, Temple Grandin, who a lot of people will be familiar with, would be the scientist who's given us a lot of insights into how cows see the world, and that gets incorporated into cow signals, and that's just one example of of of how cow signals brings science to life to more for more farmers.

Andrew Jones: 23:47

But yeah, I mean I think as you you said, uh Zone or Joe, which one of you they're all all three of our definitions there, or our interests then or perspective are different, but they're all very relevant, all very valid in the way. And just to finish Owen's question from for me, interestingly, it's slightly off track, I suppose. But um, I asked then, I asked, could I do a grazing cow signals? So I I contacted, uh, I'm going to say Yop, it's just easier because I can't remember the whole YouTube channel. I contacted Yop and said, Have you got a grazing one? And he goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. We haven't used it for a long time, but here you are. So I've got it here. It was all in Dutch, and I have translated it. I just haven't run with it yet. Uh, but the funny thing is, I'm going through those photos going, I know who that is. I know who that is. I know who that is. So I emailed him and said, Um, did you take these pictures in Far North Queensland? He went, Yeah, why? I said, because I can tell you that was my but vet Bill Tranter from behind, and I'd recognize him after 20 years. And it was you recognize his bottom. Just him from behind uh and who he was with is like his brother and uh sort of thing. And it's like, I know who that is just from the and I hadn't seen I haven't seen Bill probably for 20 years since we left Far North Queensland to go to Victoria, but it was just like I still it's a bit like cows, isn't it? I didn't see my cows for five years, and I can still tell you who they are going around the rotary just looking at the other. I suppose it's a similar situation anyway. So we spoke about how we all sort of got into it and what our how we look at it, but I suppose really I guess that is the question. What how do we um convey to people? Uh hopefully they're listening to us, and you can see the passion that we've all got for cow signals and the benefits we all believe it can. But I mean, I suppose Sarah, you picked up on a little bit there, and I suppose we all covered it a little bit, didn't we, when we did the stress-free stockmanship. It's about making our life easier as well as the cow's life, because if the cow is expressing a more natural behaviour, um she's gonna do what she wants to do, eat more easily, and therefore makes our life easier.

Sarah Bolt: 25:57

It takes me back to something that I remember covering, um, the Hemsworth cycle of stress. That if a cow gets stressed, then the human that's working with that cow gets stressed, and their stress then stresses out the cow and then that cycle. So it's almost breaking that Hemsworth cycle, isn't it?

Owen Atkinson: 26:14

Sarah, it was almost like you were there at our Allah workshop. I was gonna say what it wasn't I was that the pig guy, wasn't it?

Andrew Jones: 26:23

Was it was it a pig guy he did the work?

Owen Atkinson: 26:26

Yeah, well and and we used we did we did use that. Sorry, we did use it in uh in our workshops together.

Sarah Bolt: 26:32

We had um yeah, he's one of my heroes in life. His you know, just his looking at stockmanship skills and that side of it is uh and why it's important to enjoy your job and love your cows.

Andrew Jones: 26:43

Yeah, was it is it Professor Is it Paul Hemsworth? Yeah, was it from Melbourne? Um so again, like you said, I mean it's pulling in different bits from all over the world, isn't it? But you say you you you can see it if people don't enjoy what they're doing, it it just it's that cycle. Uh and I mean I know I was well just talking to someone at the show um the other day, and it was like, you know, it it's the same sort of thing. If you always you start you always you start that milking 10 minutes early, you'd probably finish half an hour early. But you started 10 minutes late, you always finished half an hour late, even though there was 10 minutes, and but then you get it in your head, and you it just it's that cycle, isn't it, in your head because you're thinking about it. It's the same with gales. If they start stressing you, it just it just cycles.

Jo Speed: 27:26

And can I just jump in? I think anybody that hasn't heard what cow signals is, I think Andrew, you alluded to it. Um York calls it the cow signals diamond, doesn't it? But isn't this like six-sided? Is that yeah, it's like uh and so health's in the middle of the hex hexagon, um, which is what all the average talked about. And then round the edge you've got feed, water, light, uh, rest, and space.

Andrew Jones: 27:53

Um, and it's I'm glad someone can remember them because I can uh only because I've written them down. It's usually what usually I can remember five and never remember the six.

Jo Speed: 28:04

So and and the great thing about cow signals is you you know you can talk about all of those automatic, i.e., how much air in there is that is there in the shed, what's the water availability, how often are you pushing your feed up, you know, all those kind of things. Or like we did recently at the meetings we just did over the summer, we focused on like the people handling part of that, didn't we? You know, how we interact with cows. And I guess that's the great thing about cow signals is there is something for everybody. You know, you can do the whole lot and where it fits in with your business and then how you use it with your team and your cows, or you can focus on just one area of it because they all link back to health. Um, and they're all hugely practical on farm.

Andrew Jones: 28:50

I mean, you you mentioned water. Funny enough, we uh we did the epigenetics uh podcast recently, and it's interesting that one of the markers they've got was was it hydration, I think they called it. And and and yeah, and it just all again it was it was another way of explaining what we've all talked about in cow signals that you need, didn't you know, enough water space and all of this kind of thing. And it was actually, I suppose, a uh a genetic marker that were or that was showing that the these animals weren't getting enough water out of it. And it's like, oh, that's another different way of looking at it.

Sarah Bolt: 29:22

Science on the next step.

Andrew Jones: 29:25

Oh, I know it's a bit scary, isn't it? It's a bit scary, but I I don't know what your two thoughts are, but I know myself, I always suggest I think everybody who has anything to do with cows, whether it's just the guy that's feeding the cows to the guy that's milking the cows, whatever, should do the initial basic cow signals call.

Owen Atkinson: 29:45

Yep, I agree. And and I extend that to vets. I'm always trying to encourage more vets to do it, and there can be some sniffiness around it uh amongst vets. I have come across that over the years that it's not evidence based and that it's and that. It's that it's uh you know it it it it says things that aren't backed up by science and things like that. Sometimes I find cow signals is ahead of the time. And I'll give you an example of one classic. I was talking about this with a bunch of pets earlier this week, and that is that um in cow signals parlance, we always talked about having 10 square meters per cow, but i in a in a shed, uh in a cubicle shed, more more if it's show your idea. And um and and I received pushback on that, I remember 10 years ago or so, and then AHDB sponsored some research, and they did a lot of research on what you know what performance, um what what space allowance gives you the best performance for for housed dairy cows, and it's 10 square meters, way so eventually the science catches up, I think sometimes with the common sense perhaps. Um, but you're right, Andrew. This is essential stuff for anyone who's working with cows.

Andrew Jones: 30:54

Yeah, I'm absolutely. I mean, I'd agree. I I've had a few vets do courses with me actually, which has been lovely. And at the end, they've sort of gone, yeah, that was good. We learned some stuff we had no idea about because it's yeah, it's it's we're talking about it from a practical point of view, aren't we? We're not just going, oh, here, do this, and and and and I guess another thing I always say it's not to go home to mum or dad or the boss and say, right, you're gonna knock everything down and start again, because wouldn't that be lovely?

Owen Atkinson: 31:20

It doesn't happen, it's about trying to maximize what you've got in and it's it's bigger picture stuff as well, which I think is why I l encourage vets to do it because um uh certainly as a vet, and and and this would be true, I think, for farmers as well when when they sort of go through college, you kind of learn diseases by mass, you know, you learn it in sort of systems. So you get you learn about mastitis and cell counts, you learn about lameness and feet, you learn about fertility. But actually, cow signals, you know, everything's interlinked, everything's interlinked, and and you and cow signals is more about just looking at well, we've talked about stress quite a lot, but looking at the the system and and the the sort of overall well-being of the cows, because of course that has such a big influence on all the individual diseases. So looking at things in silos, just at let's say mastitis or just fertility or just nutrition, I don't think is necessarily as healthy as the cow signals approach, which is more big picture.

Sarah Bolt: 32:15

I think there's one around disease, and if you break down disease into dis and ease and think of ease as no stress and and everything else, that actually the diss is the opposite of. So the opposite of being at ease is disease, and therefore all of these these things that you said around your diamond or hexagon or whatever size shape we decided it was in the end, um, you know, those things all um link into that, that um diss, discomfort, disease, etc. And I think that that's such an interesting concept and being able to look at your cows and and see that disease before it becomes something like mastitis or lameness, etc.

Andrew Jones: 33:05

Yeah, I mean as I say, I I my personal opinion, and thank you, Owen, is that anybody who has anything to do with cows should at least do the initial course without a doubt. I just I just think it's so because even the guy on the tractor who just feeds, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say just feeds, because he does more than just feed, but you know what I mean. Um he still needs to be able to see what those cows are doing and identify that there's something not quite right to therefore go, hmm, we need to make a change. Um yeah, and the poor tractor driver, I've got to be honest with you, in my courses, usually gets knocked because there's usually the good pictures of the feed not being um spread all the way along the front of the feed face like it should do because somebody doesn't want to get out and open the gate. So I'm sorry if you're a tractor driver, you get knocked in my course quite a bit by some of the people. But but then we all we know, but I suppose that's what we're here to explain. There are various then supplementary courses that go on as well, aren't there? There is one that's just on fertility, there is one that's just on feeding, which are probably my two favourites. There is one on hoof health, other health, young stock, um robots. Can't remember transition counts. Oh, yes, and special needs. Yes, dry to fresh is is a really good one, and then the stress-free stockmanship. But there's about 10 courses in total, isn't there, when you um when you do them. And they're all they're all really interesting courses.

Jo Speed: 34:24

I think the other great thing about um when you're delivering cow signals as well, I think it if if it's if seeing is believing, you know, because we're all really practical people, aren't we, working on farms, like you know, and I and I think we read a lot of things and we hear other people saying things, but I I think the good thing about the cow signals course, um, and I know Andrew, you you you do quite a lot as well, and um across the UK, is that it's like tell me, show me, involve me. So you're kind of you know, talking about this is what cow signals is, and we talked about cow signals diamond, and then we're saying, and here's some examples of it. So we talk, you know, uh, what do your water troughs look like? You know, how often are you pushing your feet up? So it's like, you know, then you show me, but then actually what we do on farms is we give people, you know, uh a plastic glove and a and a clear plastic cup and go and scoop a cup of water out and see what the water looks like, you know, grab a hold of the stuff in the bottom of the water trough. And so I think from a people signals point of view, you know, it's not just your traditional let's go to a meeting and sit and listen to a PowerPoint and then have a bite to eat and go home. It's you know, it's more practical, it's on farm, it's really hands-on, and it's getting involved, which at the end of the day is how a lot of us learn. You know, getting involved and doing it and seeing it.

Andrew Jones: 35:49

It's it's about being um interactive, isn't it? To me, the courses are interactive. It it's like ask your questions, let's talk as we go. I mean, for anyone that's not done a course, it it's basically the first half of the day is in let's call it a classroom, but it can be the farm kitchen table, it can be a meeting room, it can be whatever it is. And then once you've had lunch, it's then out and spend some time amongst the cows going through some um preset questions to to to uh follow up with what you've learnt. Uh and then it's like a checklist, isn't it, Andrew?

Owen Atkinson: 36:24

Really checklist so you don't forget things.

Andrew Jones: 36:26

Yeah, that's a better way. Uh and then it's back in the classroom again to get and go see through everybody saw because everybody sees something different, don't they? And and what you might see as a bigger weakness than somebody else, and it's just balancing up and and seeing the different point of view and and trying to, as you say, see from the cow's eyes to make that cow's um environment better.

Owen Atkinson: 36:47

And and if I can complete the circle on that, I like the fact that it uses that very simple approach of drawing up three lists. What's going well, yeah, what can be better, yeah, and what can we do. And you can apply that to any farmer, any situation, as long as you have the right atmosphere and the and and um I guess is where the people skills come in because we don't want to feel any host farmer, uh we don't want them to feel uncomfortable. And equally we want to encourage delegates and you know the other people there to to share their thoughts without in a way that isn't critical, overly critical. But that's that simple approach, what's going well, what could be better, and what can we do? Is a really good those opportunities for change.

Sarah Bolt: 37:34

Yes, yeah. We like that. We like that, we like that.

Owen Atkinson: 37:37

But it but it but it's yes, uh yes, that's a nice expression, and that's better, isn't it, than uh what could be better.

Andrew Jones: 37:43

But it's also like you're saying, Aaron, it's being receptive to you, you're saying opportunities to change, but it's being receptive to change, isn't it? And even when you think, oh, there isn't going to be anything there, because I know I've hosted a couple up at the Southwest Dairy Development Centre, and you look at it and it's a cow palace compared to many places, but we still found little bits that actually could just be done that if done that little bit differently that potentially could make life that little bit better. Um, uh and I know that's why we went up, they were asked to sort of go there because they had a little problem or something that they wanted to improve. And I think that'd be true for a lot of most dairy farmers.

Owen Atkinson: 38:19

I mean, if you're a dairy farmer in today's age, you've got to be doing a pretty good job. Yeah, yes, because it's it's been survival of the fittest over the last 20 or 30 years, hasn't it? So for every farm where you're doing a cow signals workshop, it is incremental gains. It's all about the incremental gains. It's not it's not um it's not necessarily starting from the very bottom of the mountain. It's just most dairy farmers are 95% there, it's just the little incremental bits that they can do to either improve their performance from a profitability point of view, or improve their their own lives from a sort of work life balance point of view, or to improve the cows' lives, or probably a bit of all three.

Andrew Jones: 39:05

And I guess it wasn't in there originally, but it's now about sustainability as well, isn't it? Yeah. Because uh was it um if you can increase uh is it from three to five lactations, which has always been the aim of of cow signals, is to have longer living cows. Uh is it decreases it to 30% methane, if I remember right off the top of my head, which surely that's got to tick a box for um a lot of milk producers, so uh or processes. So it's got to be good for your business in a number of different ways.

Sarah Bolt: 39:33

It's really that fine-tuning and fits in nicely with sort of um a lot of a lot of businesses is talking about lean management and and as you said, owing that those sort of incremental gains, etc. And I think it just just is another tool in the box to just um implement those sorts of things on farm.

Jo Speed: 39:52

One of one of the little little bits that I like talking about is Europe always talks about waiting cows, doesn't he? Uh and I remember him saying waiting cows are your best advisors, and and it's those little snippets like that.

Owen Atkinson: 40:06

So, you know, ask yourself It's it'd be worth just explaining the waiting cow, what a waiting cow is, Joe, because it's a good example if it's a cow signal's kind of word, you know what he is.

Jo Speed: 40:14

So I guess it's you know, standing looking at your cows, which you which you do a lot, um, and looking at the herd in general and and asking yourself, if there's a cow just standing there, why is she waiting? Because she should either be waiting to get in the water trough, waiting to get into the feed fence, she might be hanging around for bullying or waiting to lie down, but if she's not doing any of those things with intention, then you know, asking yourself why? Why why is she just standing there? You know, and and and Yurt would then say, you know, if you start digging a little bit deeper, uh, like is that because there aren't enough comfy beds or is it just the bit where she likes to lie is taken up? Um, or is she standing to get fresh air? You know, there's there's lots of different reasons depending on your system. I don't know if you want to jump in here or in Andrew.

Andrew Jones: 41:07

Well, I was gonna say, it's it's sometimes I'd say it's making the time to look at the chaos, isn't it? I mean, I I tell a story, and you know, I admit I was young and dumb and stupid. Um, we went to we were when we're still in North Queensland at this point before we moved to Victoria, and we were looking around at a few farms, like we looked at the one in Catherine uh in the Northern Territory, and we look we looked at one couple in New South Wales, and we went to this farm in New South Wales, and um this farm was owned by one of the two families that between them controlled 20% of the liquid milk in New South Wales. So, you know, reasonable enterprise, had about four or five thousand cows. And I'll admit, I say I was only mid-20s, so young and dumb. And uh this guy was there leaning against the fence, and I'm thinking, come on, you lazy bugger, come on, you should be getting on and getting on with some work, not just sit there looking at the cows. Yeah, a good thing I didn't say that out loud because he's the guy that owned the whole lot. Um, so you know, it's it's just it's spending that time to look at your cows and see what they're doing and what signals they're giving you. Are they waiting cows? Are they, you know, do they want more light? I mean, uh a classic. I know I've been on another farm before and I got uh I got asked to see there, and I said to him, um, you need some more light in here is the first thing I said. And he went, No, no, no, no, I'm right, I'm right. I'm like, no, it's too dark. Uh and he was he was robots, and he said, Well, I've got lights over the robots, but I said, the rest of the shed is too dark. Anyway, we kept talking. And anyway, he admitted that when he had to do his collect list for his cows, when he wrote them on the back of his glove, like most people do these days, every time after he got a cow, he had to walk outside to read the next one on his list. Because it was just too dark in the shed. It's just sometimes it's the simple little things like ensuring you've got enough light. And actually, if you do do that, I've seen it on several farms, I'm sure you guys have as well. You can increase your milk by a litre or two a cow a day, you know, and and that's a simple difference that can make a difference and will pay for itself in a relatively short period of time.

Sarah Bolt: 43:12

Going back to Joe's waiting cows, I was always was always told a waiting cow is your unproductive cow. That's the one that's that's not being productive because if she's lying down, she's gaining more litres, if she's drinking, she's probably increasing her dry matter intake, she's all of those sorts of things.

Andrew Jones: 43:30

Well, it's simple things like the lying down, isn't it? For every extra hour of lying, it's an extra litre of milk produced.

Sarah Bolt: 43:37

It's amazing those sorts of figures, isn't it? Absolutely amazing.

Jo Speed: 43:39

And and from a feet point of view, obviously, you'd rather she was lying down. You know, you don't want to stand in on the concrete and you know, in whatever conditions that is, you know, you'd be rather her feet were dry in in a line in a cubicle. Um, I'll always bring it back to feet.

Owen Atkinson: 44:01

Well, I I won't be, yeah, I won't disagree with you, Joe. Everything comes back to feet, doesn't it? Really? Yeah.

Andrew Jones: 44:07

Well, she can't do anything else, really, can she? Let's be honest.

Owen Atkinson: 44:11

Well, and again, it was a discussion I was having just this week about about that extra litre of milk production that he's always been a cow signals thing. It's one of the things actually I do get pushback on about the evidence for that, that if a cow lies down for one hour longer, they give give more milk. Because the evidence is quite complicated around lying times and uh and milk production, because the high-yielding cows actually lie down for less because they spend more time eating. Let's say a house cow might spend five and a half hours eating if she's peak lactation rather than four and a half when she's late lactation, so that impinges on her lying time, and therefore the high-yielding cows lie down for less. So complicated stuff, but yeah, the art to cut to cut to to the chase. Um the the conclusion that we had amongst ourselves was that a lot a big impact of the um low lying times. This is for housed cows on concrete in particular, um, is is because they go lame. It's just got a relationship with lameness, and lameness is a is a knobbler for cow performance, including milk yield. So so um yeah, whether it's whether there's anything more complicated than that, it's difficult to do.

Andrew Jones: 45:15

Oh well, there isn't, is there? And as you say, I know when I was still relief milking. I remember, you know, it was a uh a herd, they tried to do everything they could right in terms of beds and everything, but at that point in time they were still milking through an auto tandem, and it was taking it was taking me what uh what was it, 240 cows were taking like four hours to milk, and and that's what the difference was is some of those cows were standing around for eight hours, and it just has a knock-on effect on their ability to lie, their ability to eat, something's got to give. And if you can get um, okay, let's be blunt cow signals like the robots because they're up and down and that that's you know they're they're done quickly. But like when we talk about the time budget, isn't it? If if they're still around um waiting to milk, and yes, it takes your life a bit longer if you've got if you have more groups to switch between and things like that, but actually from a cow's point of view, it's better, they can make more of it, more and more better use of their time.

Owen Atkinson: 46:11

You've just mentioned something that just reminded me of another example where science is is catching up with cow signals. I don't know if you've come across better vision AI, Andrew. Yeah you're nodding, and um I don't know whether you've had anyone from on the podcast. Bobby Hyde is the guy I know who's sort of very much behind that. But um, it's fascinating stuff with technology where they using a a camera, it's got to be housed cows, a camera, a video camera to record the cows, and then using AI to to work out very accurate time budgets for every cow in the shed. Um so you can work out lying times, lying bouts, feeding times, feeding bouts, and and tie it into your performance and whether or not and this is why well, this is I think where it's exciting to think how technology might help us. If you make a management change here, do you see an improvement in the time budget that you would expect, for example? And um, that's really fast-moving area of science.

Andrew Jones: 47:08

Oh, uh uh yeah, the world's already been taken over by AI. Forget about Terminator, we're already there, let's be honest.

Jo Speed: 47:15

And no, and didn't you do like um uh was it a Day in the Life of Cal 5?

Owen Atkinson: 47:20

I did. Yeah, yeah. So this is it, this is over 10 years ago. 216. A Day in the Life of Cow 216. I wouldn't expect you to remember, yeah. And that was like a real sort of, I mean, looking back now, an analogue version of uh of Bet Vision AI. So I what I did, Joe, is it was for a research project on something else to do was floor flooring. I set up uh I got a company to come in and do a time-lapse, um, set up a time-lapse camera in a robot shed. It was set up high so you could see all the cows in the shed. And it took a high-resolution photograph every 10 seconds. So quite different to a just a normal video camera or GoPro or CCTV, because I wanted to be able to track where I was following five cows, or I intended to follow five cows, where they were at any one moment in time, and I can only do that with a high-resolution video or high-resolution photographs. So, Joe, I this is before AI, I had my footage, one photograph frame every 10 seconds for a 24-hour period, and literally, I mean on my computer, I didn't print them off. I'm not that stupid, but I was going through photograph after photograph after photograph. You were a heavy curve there, I wasn't. And logging and logging, I only did it for well, I started off doing it for five cows. It was a Jersey herd, and I'd marked these five cows up by sticking some fluorescent strips on their backs, different shapes. And by the end of 24 hours, there was only one cow, cow 216, who had to have fluorescent strips still left on it. Because the other cow been jerseys, they're very curious things, they've licked, they'd licked each other's strips off. So that was a blessing in disguise because I did only have to do a detailed sort of analysis, if you like, or log of what this one cow, Cow T16, did in her 24-hour period. But I did a really, really detailed time budget for that particular cow. So it wasn't just the amount of total time she spent feeding, for example, it was how many times she went to feed and and how long each feeding belt was, and different things like that.

Sarah Bolt: 49:18

And um what were the highlights of that bit of research?

Owen Atkinson: 49:22

The highlights say, yeah, so it was a 24 24 hours of fr of footage, Andrew. And it took me, I mean, I didn't work through the night, but I remember it took me three solid days, solid days of just sitting in front of my computer, just like flicking through picture after picture, because I was obviously not going through them in 10 seconds. If I'd done it in 10 seconds at a time, it would have been 24 hours solid. But yeah, it took me ages.

Andrew Jones: 49:47

Does it scare you the fact that now with AI and machine learning that probably would have been done in yeah, yes, right?

Owen Atkinson: 49:54

Well, yes and no, because uh Sarah, you asked the question, what did I learn? I mean, what was the highlight? I mean, it was boring sitting through the photos. I mean, it wasn't it kind of wasn't really because I learned so much about um because I was just looking so closely at this one cow for such a long period of time. About um one of the interesting things for me was was how the social hierarchy, I get an idea, an insight of how social hierarchies are are kind of created in a in a in a herd. So the cows spent a lot of time doing sort of head-to-head weaving. So they would they would face each other, maybe 10 feet apart, and just wobble their heads a little bit, and then the least dominant cow, presume the least dominant cow, would then walk away. And then you know, the most dominant cow who's stood her ground uh moves up the hierarchy a little bit. And um, I wasn't aware of that, I just wasn't aware that that's how they kind of established that hierarchy to such an extent. But there was a lot of just standing, weaving their heads, walking away, kind of activity going on. Um, was that the highlight, maybe? So many highlights, so many highlights.

Andrew Jones: 51:02

Yeah, but you had fun by the sounds of it, Ian.

Owen Atkinson: 51:06

It was a really good project. I I think I learned a lot. And what? Like you say, it's been superceded by better technology now.

Andrew Jones: 51:13

But if you from from what from what you did then in that case and what's been done, you mentioned with Vision AI, how do they tie in with the the the budget that Cal Signals has used probably for five years?

Owen Atkinson: 51:23

So it ties in very well. So a lot of the a lot of the the stuff that Cal Signals again uh cow signals has this thing of adopting science that's been done by other people and um um and and translating it uh into something that's very easy for farmers to engage with. And a lot of that work had been done by visual observation with students in some house herds in Wisconsin. And there's a guy called Nigel Cook, who is um he's a veto from Wisconsin, but he was he came from Britain originally, who who was sort of co-authored a lot of those papers. So I was aware of Nigel Cook's sort of time budget stuff, and that's what's used in cow signals. And Cal216 followed that um pretty well. Nigel's study uh was bigger in the sense it included more more animals, but it wasn't as detailed in that it didn't do it as granularly as my single cow, because I could have told you what she was doing absolutely any second of any day. But um, yeah, it tied in very very well, Andrew, really. So so yeah, basically my cow did lie down for uh just under 12 hours a day. Yeah, she did it in six bouts, and the average line time for her was um just over um well I I'm gonna say just over two hours. It was the median line time. I mean that was that's what her she typically did, is she lay down for about two hours and she stood up and then she'd go and eat, and then she'd lie down for two hours and stand up and go and eat. But she she did that, uh, she repeated that cycle through the day, as you'd expect, or as you'd hope.

Andrew Jones: 52:51

So yeah, so really it it followed what you expected from the cow signals. She so again it it it's backing up. But the as you say, the cow signals. I mean, I've got to be honest with you, I don't know where a lot of the it comes from, but it's obviously got a scientific background and it's just put in a way that makes it easy for people to understand, doesn't it?

Owen Atkinson: 53:10

Yeah, and I think you're just appreciating that thing that cows, you know, they have this eat, lie down, chew they could, eat, lie down, chew they could, repeat cycle, and how important it is to try and encourage that to happen in a housed environment, like it it happens in in nature, if you like, or uh and certainly when they're outside where it's easy for them to lie down and eat and lie down and eat, because of the effect on rumen health. If they have lots of little feeds throughout the day rather than let's say three or four big feeds, they're going to eat the same amount, so it costs the farmer the same, but the efficiency in which they can digest that feed is so much better if they have it in lots of little feeds, um, and you'll get more bang for your buck, you get more milk for the same amount of feed income, feed input, and the and that's down to rumen health. That's down to the the fact that the rumen is sort of coping better with this little and often feeding, because that's what how the cow, that's how the cow is designed, really. And and there's so many little things that a farmer can do to try and improve those number of feeding bowels, like get rid of dead ends, like reduce the stocking rate so they're not over so they're not overcrowded, like reduce overcrowding the feed fence, Andrew. Like like that, that's that's why it matters for that tractor driver to open the gate and just deliver the deliver to the fast last 12 foot of the feed barrier. Because all those things don't necessarily influence feed intakes. Cow eat she eats what she eats, but it massively influences the number of feeding bouts, the number of times you'll go and have a fresh feed.

Andrew Jones: 54:40

Exactly, and it will it all makes a difference. As you say, if you've got room and health, it knocks on to everything else, doesn't it? Because if you've got poor room and health, it's going to affect uh so many other things as well.

Sarah Bolt: 54:51

So earlier you alluded to the fact that cows actually see the world differently. Does do anyone of you want to sort of comment on that as to perhaps how cows do see the world and what that means for them?

Jo Speed: 55:04

We we uh we covered this in our summer round. I think we're all quite excited about uh this topic. And the and the big thing uh that we talked about is the cow's eyes are obviously in a different position to ours, i.e. on the side of the head. Um and although they're quite big, deep set eyes, they're actually quite limited vision, which we all know that. You know, we all know that if you walk behind a cow, she probably can't see you. Uh and we all know that she has limited vision at the front. But one thing we talked about um during our summer meetings was you know, how because of the where the eyes are set, she has very poor depth perception. So sometimes, for example, if it's a really sunny day and there's lots of shadows, um, if you're moving cattle down a race, then she can't always tell if that's a hole or if it's just a shadow. So what we talked about was how you can work with cows and you know, moving slowly and quietly to allow them actually to sense check things. Um, and another really really interesting thing we talked about was how not just with their eyes, but how how cows rely on all of their senses because they obviously can't tell us anything. So they rely on touch and they rely on hearing and they rely on taste. So you quite often find if you put a new foot bath in or you've got a new handling system, they'll they'll use like their tongue quite often to check something out, they'll sniff it, you know, they they'll try and look at it, get quite close to it, and it's them sort of making sense of something. Um, because at the end of the day, they're they're just worried that they're going to be eaten at all times, you know, in the sort of packing or you know, the prey cow is historically a prey animal. So it's them just sort of looking, is this safe for me uh to walk through this footpath, to go around that dark corner, to step into what is a shadow, but I'm not quite sure. So we had a really good discussion about, you know, and where we fit with that when we're handling cows. So, you know, training teams that it's really important that we don't walk in that blind spot behind the cow. Uh, but we actually make sure she can see us, we're either on one side or the other. And actually, when we're planning the meeting, Owen gave me an absolute gem, which I hadn't heard of before. I'll let you jump in, Owen, about which side uh cows prefer us to stand.

Andrew Jones: 57:28

Yeah, that that was an absolutely fascinating one, that was. I've used that myself a few times with people, and they're like, oh, didn't know that.

Owen Atkinson: 57:35

So the test is if you stand behind one of your cows in the blind spot, which way will they turn to see you? And they don't always, but Sarah, try this at home.

Sarah Bolt: 57:44

I th I think I might know the answer because I'm probably just as good for as you guys, but I would guess anti-clockwise, say to the left.

Owen Atkinson: 57:54

Yeah.

Sarah Bolt: 57:54

Because they prefer to turn to the left, they prefer to and it's also with that, isn't it their brain and their ocular connection to the brain? I don't know.

Owen Atkinson: 58:05

So what so my understanding of it is that as a prey animal, they like to see their predator through their left eye because their left eye is attached to the right brain, and their right brain processes danger. So um, because they prefer to see you with the left eye, if you're standing dead behind them, they'll turn anti-clockwise. So it's not they've got a preference normally to turn left or right, you know, cows in field don't always turn anti-clockwise, they turn both ways. But when they've got when there's a predator and they want to see the predator better, they'll turn to see the predator in the left eye. So, so in order to sit in an ideal world, if we can keep our cows as settled as possible, we'll we'll be in their left field of vision rather than their right field of vision. And that is why I think we drive on the left-hand side of the road because we used to lead horses so that they could see us through the left eye.

Sarah Bolt: 58:57

How clever is that?

Owen Atkinson: 58:58

Makes sense. But then they don't but they don't drive on the left-hand side of the road in Australia or America. So I don't know how that's true.

Andrew Jones: 59:05

They do in Australia.

Owen Atkinson: 59:07

Oh, do they? And I think all of the things, yeah, they do. But I I think that kind of comes, I mean, horses, people always know that they'll lead a horse on their on the person's right. And it's like when you're showing cattle, you'll always lead the cow on your right. And and I think it's because the animal, both predator animals, they like to see us through their left eye. So they'll be they'll be easier to have.

Sarah Bolt: 59:28

We were talking about Temple Grandin earlier as well, weren't we? And the fact that when she um designs um races and things that circular and if possible to be anti clockwise again and again, I think for the same reason, isn't it?

Owen Atkinson: 59:44

So so the handlers, anyone, yeah, will be always on that left eye. Yeah.

Andrew Jones: 59:48

I was gonna say Can you imagine if they all turn left all the time, be like watching the indie five hundred round the paddock?

Jo Speed: 59:57

Turns out faster we're running.

Andrew Jones: 1:00:03

But no, that's fascinating. So like you were talking about the cow depth there, Joe. Like years ago, I remember them saying, you know, oh, they don't like the curb off the back of the bed above a certain height. And at the time, it was only, you know, again, late teens, early twenties, whatever it was. Had no idea why that was. I just knew that was a fact of why. Whereas this sometimes I find cow signals fills the gaps in from knowledge maybe I had, but didn't necessarily understand why they were what they were. And it's just it brings everything together in such a way that um uh makes it understandable for people when they're working with cows to appreciate more why they do what they do.

Sarah Bolt: 1:00:42

That depth of perception links back to your um sort of foot baths and um foot health, doesn't it?

Jo Speed: 1:00:48

With steps down into and explain a bit more about um, so um cows prefer to see so rather than a flat if you're building a foot bath rather than just having a flat surface and then a straight step down bath, that's actually, you know, given what we just spoke about, it's quite hard for cows to sort of sense um, am I going to just fall in there? You know, is this the sort of North Sea? Whereas sometimes if we put a step there to stop them, so there's a step before they step in um and build the foot bat off rather than down, then they're much more comfortable with that. But I think at the end of the day, if you're using a foot bath, the more routine you have, you know, obviously cows get used to that. Um, and in turn, the quieter we handle them in new situations. So some of that is just giving cows time to see where you want them to go, because this not only do they see uh in a different way, but they see very slowly, like the perception is very slow. Um, I think it was 12 and a half times slower, was it, how they see the world than us. So it's really important that we, you know, we we we move very slowly. Like traditionally, we walk quite quickly, and cows walk quite slowly. So giving cows the time and space to go, ah, right, you want me to walk through there, or oh, it's that gate in the corner. You know, it's quite often we're busy and there might be a gang of us, you know, and we're jumping up and down, or you've got teams jumping up and down. Um, but actually, if we back off and put one person in charge and give them a bit of space, then the then quite often they do have a light bulb moment in a cow world and go, ah, you want me to go through there or around that corner?

Sarah Bolt: 1:02:31

And I guess some of it goes back to, you know, their size versus our size. We can turn a corner quite quickly. A 750 kilo cow is going to perhaps take a bit more time to do that.

Jo Speed: 1:02:46

Yeah, I was thinking it's like a big drum, isn't it, with a with a leg on each corner, you know, that they're quite unwieldy, really, aren't they? To sort of move in a really responsive way. So the slower we are with them and the slower we handle them, then the easier for them to respond.

Owen Atkinson: 1:03:02

Sarah, can I ask you a question? Try me. And it relates to what you were saying before we went live on air, and it was that you wanted to do enough. Nothing you wanted to do one, and it was about was it can stopmanship be taught.

Sarah Bolt: 1:03:15

Yeah, or is it innate? Is it is it yeah, innate. Just tell me a bit about it's just a theory that I've got that certain people almost seem to have that intuition around animals, isn't it? And I wonder if it is something that we're born with, or actually can we learn to do that? And I think perhaps where cow signals comes into it, it might be helping some people to learn how to do some of those stockmen skills, isn't it? If it if it isn't innate, then we do need to learn them, and cow signals is a really appears to be a really good way, step by step, to take people through that.

Owen Atkinson: 1:03:58

I I'm I'm so sad you didn't get to do the I got too old. Someone's someone needs to do it. I I was doing some foot trimming training on Monday with um a bunch of guys and uh on farm uh herds of people, uh just training on farm. And um one of the guys, I know because one of his colleagues has said he's he he's not great around the cows when he's milking, the cows always kick units off and that kind of thing. There's more, and I noticed that he he's a lovely chap, really nice, very good at the foot trimming, but he was a very high-energy individual, really, really enthusiastic. And I just suggested that he that's a great thing to be in high energy, but just turn the dial back down five percent in terms of the way because almost almost all of his movements were just a little bit faster, let'd be five percent faster than mine. I mean, I'm perhaps a bit getting old now and I'm not so fast, but and I wonder whether that because that's that's innate, that was an innate thing about this guy. He was very high-energy individual, and and and I think the cows didn't like it because it was probably a little bit too fast. It was a little movement, and it was so hard to pinpoint why. You know, he wasn't shouting at the cows, he wasn't hitting the cows, he wasn't doing anything obviously wrong. It was more that he was just just a little bit fast in everything he did, and and and I think that was giving him difficulties in the handling. So that's like yeah, it picks up that's an innate, that's an innate thing. Yeah, some people are just naturally very sluggish and slow with the way they move, and maybe that innately gives them a better ability to work with cows. I don't I don't know. But that's someone's gotta do that.

Andrew Jones: 1:05:40

That that comes down, wouldn't you call that cow scent? Because you've made me think I remember when I was doing some ET work in Victoria, and um my ET technician had uh an assistant had just started, and we were in the crush, couldn't do on the back of the platform like we normally do. We were in the crush, but instead of walking out and around the building to get back to where she needed to do with the the petri dish after you know she flushed, she walked straight in front of the cow, literally straight in front. So just upset the cow and not not just thinking, oh, I need to just just give her a nice wide berth so that she knows I'm not, and it was just straight across the front of the cow. And of course, with ET, you've got to be very precise about your conditioning and everything. So, yeah, you're right. It probably say you actually it's a fair point, I mean, actually, he's just that five percent faster, that five percent more energy, and the vibe he gives off is the cow's like, Whoa, that's too much, that's too intense. We all have people we find too intense sometimes. Um, you know, it's the same sort of thing.

Owen Atkinson: 1:06:38

I uh I think I alarmed the Arla guys because we're giving these Arla workshops over the summer that you've talked about, Andrew and Joe. And I would sometimes say, you know, the best what you should be doing is is encouraging your herdspeople to smoke, particularly roll-ups. Don't say that. I did, yeah, they won't invite me back next year. Because uh because I mean it's a tongue-in-cheek thing, but people who go and collect cows, if they are a herds person that smokes roll-ups, what they tend to do is they open the gate and then they stop and they roll themselves a cigarette and they smoke that cigarette, and it just allows the cows to flow to them.

Andrew Jones: 1:07:15

Do you know what? Thinking back, I seem to remember having a similar conversation. I think it was with Mike Jones when me and Neil interviewed him up at the Southwest Dairy Development Center. I think Neil was talking about was it the guys that's how yeah, exactly. The guys that smoke with the roll-up. She said, Don't do it. But he says, What we used to do is you say, just like you were saying, they're they're just that little bit slower about uh letting the cows do their thing. Bad for their health and breeding for the cows, but they're letting the cows do their thing without worrying them and chasing them. I mean, I I've certainly you talk about that. I've heard stories. Uh I had a two I see in Victoria Kiwi, and he said similar sort of thing, but in a different way. When they got the cows, they had to walk behind the cows. They weren't allowed to ride the bike home. They went they went out with the bike, got the cows, but then had to leave the bike in the paddock and go back and get it later. So they weren't trying to push these cows to get in. Yes, we walk at what, 4k of cows, 2.5k, but um, you know, they were deliberately slowing them down by making them leave the the bikes in the field.

Sarah Bolt: 1:08:12

I'm gonna go back to your lot to be said for the the the um rolling your own cigarettes as well, that you know you think of leaning on time to lean on a gate and watch. It's it's back to those things with cow signals again, isn't it? Just taking time to just watch while you're you're just taking five minutes to just uh Yeah, I mean we could be modern and encourage people to think. It could be, I don't know. I don't know.

Owen Atkinson: 1:08:36

Maybe we just need to just encourage more more stillness and five minutes Well actually yeah I think someone made the comment that that actually a lot of younger people would be on their phones instead, so they'd open the gate and then they'd be uh scrolling through their phones.

Andrew Jones: 1:08:53

Or don't don't do what I used to do sometimes when I was younger, up too late doing whatever, and I used to fall asleep on the bike behind the cows and then suddenly wake up micro sleep, wake up thinking, oh, I must be you know late, and it's like no, no, the cows are just wandered on, and it was only like five minutes later. But I'm not encouraging anyone to do that at all, but I used to do that quite a bit in my younger days.

Owen Atkinson: 1:09:14

So you're gonna edit, edit all these bad habits out as well.

Andrew Jones: 1:09:18

No, we've all got them, we've all done them. But but on those bad habits, as much as I hate to say it, I'm looking at the time and thing, and we do need to wrap this up, but I know we could just keep going because it's a subject we're all very passionate about. We're nerding out, aren't we? Yeah, I know, I know. I've done a bit of that recently. I love cows.

Sarah Bolt: 1:09:40

You're allowed to, you're allowed to, it's all right.

Andrew Jones: 1:09:42

What this whole podcast is about is cows. Um so uh any words of wisdom, Joe, we'll start with you first if we can. Any any last thoughts from yourself?

Jo Speed: 1:09:52

I think you know, we're all busy, like dairy farming's hugely busy, and we spend a lot of time moving around quite quickly. But you know, mobility score scoring is a good example of a cow signal in that we do just allocate that time to stand and watch and look for lameness, and cow signals is no different. So if you can just, you know, work with your team and encourage them to just start smoking.

Andrew Jones: 1:10:20

Yeah, smoking habitat. We're trying to get good health.

Jo Speed: 1:10:25

Yeah, so encouraging, you know, that it it's alright just to slow it down and spend some time and and look at the signals that your cows are giving you, you know, some ability scores, one of them, but as we've talked to Rat, there's lots and lots of different things that she's telling us through her body language and uh her behaviour.

Owen Atkinson: 1:10:44

Owen okay, so we'll we'll stick away from the go and have a cigarette, but instead go and have a cup of tea. So whenever stress levels are rising in the cows and the humans, and the two things are usually linked, then uh just go and put the kettle on and just take 10 minutes out, have a cup of tea, have a biscuit, and then we're not so hangry as well. So go and have a cup of tea. That would be my thing. Put a pause in, have a cup of tea whenever stress levels are rising, in cows or humans. Sarah.

Sarah Bolt: 1:11:21

I just think all of it is just a really exciting topic, and I think the more we understand about cattle behaviour, the better we can actually provide for them. And those happy cows are gonna be our productive cows, they're going to have better welfare, there's actually going to be that better consumer perception, and it's gonna be better for the farmer's pocket as well, isn't it? If we've got non-stressed cows and non-stressed humans, so let's learn as much as we can.

Andrew Jones: 1:11:54

Well, what's the tagline? Happy cows, happy farmer, happy planet. But I mean, uh really, yeah, I mean, I guess I've stressed it. I think anybody who has anything to do with cows should do the initial cow signals course at least. Um, and and I've had a lot of young people on there who don't have a lot of experience with cows. But on the flip side, even if you're someone experienced with cows, I think you'll get something from it. I've had a few people on the course that one even said to me, you know, I'm 60 years old or whatever it was, he's in the supply industry. I thought, what am I doing here? And at the end of it, he said, I really enjoyed it. I learned so much that I hadn't realized I knew, but you just put it in a different perspective and gave me a different view. So I would encourage anybody who's listening to this, whether you're directly on farm, even supply into it, because I've done a couple of uh sales teams for people, you know, we've all uh trained various different people for the cow signals. Look at a cow signals course with somebody and do it. I'd really encourage it because it just gives you a fresh perspective from how you you look at your cows and and and how you interact with them definitely. Um and and then if you know if you the initial one is great, look at doing one of the other ones, whether it is the stress-free stopmanship that we all you know covered a little bit of for Arla during the summer, or it's the robot one or fertility one or the dry to fresh one or whatever it happens to be. Um, but on that, I guess I'd like to say thank you very much to you all. Um, and uh it's a goodbye from me.

Sarah Bolt: 1:13:22

It's a goodbye from me and great to talk to you. Thank you. Bye.

Andrew Jones: 1:13:31

Thank you for listening to the Tune the Cud Podcast, podcast for the UK dai industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of TuneTheCud Limited. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of TuneTheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by TuneTheCud Limited, visit www.tuneTheCud.com. Thank you and goodbye.