ChewintheCud Podcast

Succession, Wills, And Keeping The Farm Running

• ChewintheCud Ltd • Season 4 • Episode 10

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A farm doesn’t pause for grief, and that’s exactly why a clear succession plan matters. We sit down with Old Mill partners Willem Puddy and Philip Kirkpatrick to unpack the human, legal, and financial knots around passing on a family farm—without tearing the business or the family apart. From the first awkward conversation to the final signatures, we walk through what actually works on real farms.

We start with the essentials: who owns what, what sits in the estate, and where the single points of failure hide. Wills, partnership agreements, and up‑to‑date records keep a shock from becoming a crisis. Then we tackle the emotional heart of succession: fairness versus equality, sweat equity, and what to do when one sibling has invested decades on the ground while others haven’t. You’ll hear practical ways to support non‑farming heirs—life insurance, staged gifting, and clear expectations—without forcing sales or starving the business of cash.

Income is the thread that runs through everything. Land values soared while farm returns lagged, creating retirees who hold assets for security and successors who can’t step in. We explore pensions to fund retirement outside the farm, term life cover to protect against the worst‑case, and sensible timelines to hand over control in stages. When divorce risk or control worries loom, trusts can help, but we’re candid about costs, complexity, and bank lending. The rule: let the family plan lead and use tax planning to support it, not drive it.

If inheritance tax changes keep you up at night, we share what to fix first: map ownership, review wills that waste allowances, quantify exposure, and document the business so someone else can find the stopcock, the passwords, and the supplier list. Build your farm’s “board table”—accountant, solicitor, financial planner, land agent—so advice aligns and decisions stick. Take bite‑size actions now and review yearly; strategy and succession should evolve together. If this helped you think differently about keeping your farm in family hands, follow the show, share this with someone who needs to hear it, and leave a quick review to help more UK dairy farmers find us.

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Andrew Jones:

This is the Chewing the Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to Chewing the Cud Podcast. My name is Andrew James, and with me today is Sarah Bolt. How are you going, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt:

I'm really good, thank you, Andrew. How are things with you this week?

Andrew Jones:

Um, yeah, not too bad, not too bad. Let's let's be honest. It's been a bit up and down uh for me recently on a personal level, and I suppose I feel I've not apologize, I don't think that's quite the right word, but when we get into the main podcast, I do leap suddenly into let's talk about sudden death. And so to anybody, I'm just giving you a bit of a warning. Listening back, it was a bit blunt, but it was very much because my uh mother-in-law died uh quite suddenly recently after a short illness. She got everything in line, bless her, but it was still like it was in my mind, and I was just like, where do we start? Bang! And so just a bit of a word of warning there for anybody. Um, but otherwise, yeah, not too bad, not too bad. I mean, uh as I say that, this this is a bit of a difficult subject sometimes for people, isn't it?

Sarah Bolt:

It is a very difficult subject. I think it's the thing that um probably people find most hard to talk about. Um, you know, it's it's not only is it a difficult conversation, but it's actually a difficult can't say that without um suthering. It's a difficult conversation to have with family. Um, you know, sort of other difficult conversations perhaps tend to be with staff, um, but this one's with close family and perhaps makes it that much harder.

Andrew Jones:

I I'd say it probably does make it that much harder, but it is making that often it's that uh it's it it's what we dread will happen, and often it's not the case. It's once you've made that initial start, it's not as bad as you think it is. And yeah, I tell myself that quite often, but you know, um, so yeah, let's let's go really go talk to our guests about um succession and retirement. This podcast has been brought to you today by TuneTheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition. Our signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. More details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.tuneTheCud.com or email us directly on nutrition at tune the cud.com. TuneTheCud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website www.tunethecud.com or email us directly on training at tune the cud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt:

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones:

And welcome to the TuneTheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt:

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Andrew Jones:

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Sarah Bolt:

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Andrew Jones:

Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back to Tune Cud Podcast. And our guests today are Willem Puddy and Philip Kirkpatrick, both partners from Old Mill Accounting. Good afternoon to you both.

Willem Puddy:

Afternoon, Andrew. Afternoon.

Andrew Jones:

Afternoon. How are you both? Very good, thank you. Good, good, good. Well, we're here to talk um a little bit about succession planning and and maybe some things we should be looking at. I know we've talked a little bit about succession planning in the past when we had uh Catherine and Nathan come on talking about what they were talking about in their particular farm. We were looking at it more from a bigger, broader picture with uh two guys from Old Mill. But before we um start, like usual, um Willem, tell us about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

Willem Puddy:

Uh slightly an unusual sort of path I take. I grew up on a family farm in Wiltshire, Codford, uh just off the A36. Um, mum and dad are sort of arable farmers there with with quite a bit of diversification off of 300 acres. Um, I actually went away and played football for for 10, 12 years as a professional football player. Um uh not at a hugely high level, but what as uh uh a level where I knew I had to do something after, um, and obviously having a love for the rural community. Um I did I studied while I was playing so that uh when I decided to stop, um I uh joined Old Mill, went through the normal sort of exams to become a chartered accountant and and work myself to to the position where I am at the moment um being sort of the trusted advisor on a portfolio of rural clients um in and around uh uh uh uh our offices in Chippenham.

Andrew Jones:

So, how high did you get in football?

Willem Puddy:

Uh I played at League One, was the highest I played. Okay, so it's still reasonable.

Sarah Bolt:

Yeah, any teams we might have heard of.

Willem Puddy:

So I played Bristol Rovers, Cheltenham, Salisbury.

Andrew Jones:

So local teams really, but still, still good. Philip yourself, how did you get to where you are today?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Yeah, so uh Willem Willem did the more exciting route going off and playing professional football. I I did the more traditional route of um, yeah, my my parent, well, my father was a farmer in in Somerset uh with my uncle, and uh classically they um sadly fell out and the farm got sold. And so I I devoted myself to well, trying a little bit at school, uh going off to university at Exeter, and then uh joining Old Mill after then. And I've been there ever since, really. So um 17 years in counting.

Andrew Jones:

So but certainly both got the rural background and understanding of um what a lot of your clients are dealing with then. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as I said, we're here to talk about succession. I know this came off the back of um you've had a couple of articles recently published, wasn't it? I think in the farming press talking about this. So we thought we'd talk about this uh in further detail. Um I guess it's where do you start? There's all sorts of things you could start at. I'll start with a worst-case scenario because this is a little bit poignant for me at the moment, because unfortunately, my mother-in-law passed away quite suddenly recently. Sudden death. If there's no plan, where do you go?

Willem Puddy:

After you then after me. Well, uh where we are today, if if we're a farmer, um, first and foremost, we need to understand where what that person owns, yeah, what is in their own state. So it's the sudden death, it is a is is obviously very emotional time for individuals as well. So uh I know people have the same sort of opinion, but that we have lots of procedures within Old Mill to ensure that um we're taking care of some of the business side of it. Um, if you're a partnership, that means that sometimes if you're a two-person partnership, that could mean a partnership is ceasing, um, and the other person comes and sold trade. So it's just understanding your own personal situation, if it's sudden death. Um, if we're talking succession, then we've also got, I think, well, what what's the tax rules at the point of death? So uh unfortunately, in your circumstances, usually your mother so recently, um if they were a farmer, and I don't know your personal situation.

Andrew Jones:

No, no, no, my mother-in-law's retired teacher, so you know, nothing nothing farming-wise in that regard.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, yeah. But it's you just need to understand their estate and whether they qualify for certain reliefs uh in the farming world. It's a much it's much better. This is a terrible way of talking, but from a relief point of view, the reliefs are are much better now than what they will be come 6th of April next year.

Andrew Jones:

I mean, I know I've thrown you both in the deep end with that, and apologies for that. But let's take a step back then. Really, the whole point of this is we're trying not to make today's a discussion political, because obviously there has been a bit of upset in the last year with some of the changes that are coming in in 2026. Um, but really the whole point of this is to make people think about what they're doing, aren't they? So that then when the time does come, it's even if it is sudden death, it's uh there is a plan in place so people know what the go is. And we're you know, we're here to make people think about what they're doing. It's an awkward situation. Most people do not like talking about money, do not like talking about death, do not like talking about the next step, uh, what happens. But really we should the point of this is to make people think, isn't it, and have maybe an annual review or whatever it happens to be and have plans in place, whether it's wills, whether it's whatever it happens to be. So I mean in an ideal situation, I'm gonna pick on you this time, Phil, because you handed it over to Will last time. What was what would your um what would you ideally have a client have to to to to to to be fo not fo yeah to be focused and when the the moment occurs, everything's in place for it to happen.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Yeah, that's fine. I think the um there there's sort of different stages. So, I mean, there's sort of legal and financial kind of aspects, which which sort of Willem and I would probably get a little bit more involved in, but actually a lot of it is around more the practical management of the business, um, and whether there is whether there is someone actually in place who can effectively pick up the reins, should should someone no longer be there, whether that's sort of died, unfortunately, or incapacitated. Um, and obviously with with the with that side of it, that's less of us being able to assist with that really. Um it's more about encouraging people to think forwards on that basis. I mean, farming is ultimately one of the most dangerous professions there is. Um, and having sort of a uh like a backup plan should should things go wrong isn't is not a bad thing. I mean, hopefully everyone would on every farm, there'd hopefully be two people who kind of knew how most things work. Uh, that's probably not the case, I suspect.

Andrew Jones:

Um, that's not the case.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

No, but that but I think I remember I remember on one client they said, oh, I hope nothing help happens to dad, because dad's the only one who knows where all the uh all the water names and everything is and the farm and so on and so on. And there's because they built it, there was so much ingrained knowledge that hadn't been passed on to the next generation. So so that I think is one thing. So we our encouragement on that side is really to get the families talking. Uh, and then on the financial aspects, yeah. I mean, it it's it's having the paperwork in place to make sure it's all facilitated. I mean, probably one of the worst things is if they don't have a will or the will's wrong, that's that could be pretty nightmare scenario.

Andrew Jones:

Well, we we all know of those farming stories, even locally, but you know, it has ended up in high court, whatever, because different people have fought the wheel, and it just makes it a mess for everybody, doesn't it, involved?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

It it does, and and I suppose um we always encourage clients to kind of review their will or other documents sort of periodically just to make sure that they are still uh correct. Because you know, a rolling wheel can be as bad as uh not having one. Um, yeah, so it can it can be it can be a bit of a nightmare, and unfortunately, we probably all, like you say, had seen or had experiences of that scenario. Uh, and it can ultimately mean the death of the file, the death of the business.

Willem Puddy:

It's an important one as well, isn't it, Phil? Is the amount of kinds that we we sort of almost take on where none of this is set up is is is amazing. We sat with lawyers yesterday and they they reckon 50% of people don't have a will.

Sarah Bolt:

Huge statistics, isn't it?

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, I think and you're thinking, well, that's just it's sort of craziness because Andrew mentioned things ending up in court and the amount that farming families would have to pay in that scenario is astronomical. And yes, there is a cost to the planning that we're talking about, but it's it's sort of a necessary cost. Yeah, it's one of those difficult ones.

Sarah Bolt:

It's one of those difficult things, isn't it? Because it reminds us that we're not actually immortal and that you know we will uh we will drop off this earth at one time. And I think, you know, however, the older you get, the the more you think about it like that. And therefore, although if I don't address it, then it's it's easier not to address it than to address my uh my uh and I and I think that's the add going back to Andrew's original sudden death question.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

That's the problem with a sudden death, is there is no time to sort anything out effectively. Um so that that is one of those problems people do need to think about it earlier than they think.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, I suppose that's a sorry, Andrew. I was gonna say that's a that's probably one positive that is coming out of all these discussions at the moment is that there are discussions being had.

Andrew Jones:

So we can so we can thank Rachel Reeves for something, then is what you're trying to say.

Willem Puddy:

No, I can't, I'm not saying that at all.

Andrew Jones:

No, no, no, you are right though, it is. It's having that discussion because it it so nobody enjoys it, and like you're saying, if it ends up in court, that's going to cost a lot more than having pre-planned and put it in place to start with, isn't it? Now, whether that means you've got to review the will whenever, or as you say, like you're talking about the uh the water lines and stuff, maybe some stuff needs to be recorded so that then everybody knows what the go is with certain stuff. But we all know that there's I just take myself and my own little business, the only one that probably knows how all this stuff is in my head, and well, that's no good for anybody else if something suddenly happens to me and it's no different, is it, really?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Not really. And and I think the other important thing is um so it's not just having the paperwork all in order, it is having those open discussions with with your family. Um, because I think if you we've seen many cases where perhaps some of the younger generation of them, they're not young anymore, they've put 20, 30 years into this business, but perhaps never really actually had an idea what their parents were planning to do with it, and that again can cause problems. Whereas if if they knew from the off, for example, that they were going to get the farm or only going to get a slice of the farm, they can make an informed decision about what they want to do with their future. Um, and and as difficult as that might be to address at the time, uh at least people can go into uh they can make an informed decision with it and you know go into whatever they agree with their eyes wide open, effectively.

Andrew Jones:

Well, as uh I was gonna say, even if they need to bring a third party, we're not necessarily talking about you guys, but whoever it happens to be, just to act as a mediator in those initial discussions, isn't it? So that um everybody can bring to the table what they do and don't want, try and thrash out what they want to then come to the likes of yourselves or the solicitor or whoever it happens to be to then go, right, we want this is our plan, we want to put it in place, and for then obviously you to offer advice, this is good, bad, indifferent, whatever it happens to be. But sometimes just use an external um moderate uh moderator, um, yeah, mediator is the word I'm looking for. Sorry, and uh, an internal, an external mediator to to to um what adjudicate, if that's the right word, between all the different facilitate.

Sarah Bolt:

We like that word, yes, facilitate, yes.

Andrew Jones:

To chair a family meeting, whatever it happens to be, to try and bring every draw out of everybody what their expectations are, what the outcomes are going to be, so that then something can happen positive to then move forward um to to use the likes of yourselves to make that plan come into action.

Willem Puddy:

Phil's point around the openness is massive because I'm sure Phil's seen it as well that we see it probably too regularly, and it's something that we encourage not, that they don't know what happens, and then I've you see the impact emotionally on the people who maybe got less than what they thought they're gonna get. It might have been justified by mum and dad, but mum and dad are not about, or they might not be about at that point in time to explain their reasoning, so they will they will pick their own reasonings why they ended up like it, and it might be completely different to what actually was the the reasoning mum and dad had it in that in that scenario.

Sarah Bolt:

I always remember Sean Bushel, she um was always one of um that I think sort of brought succession planning, I think, to the forefront of my mind some years ago. And I remember listening to her speak once and you know, sort of talking about that um that fairness doesn't necessarily mean equitable and and really trying to understand that. And I think you know, within families, parents might think that actually splitting it equally is the is the right way. But if some if one of the the the siblings had been working on the farm for many years and the other two perhaps hadn't, yeah, there doesn't seem much fair about that, does it?

Andrew Jones:

That led into the very question I was going to say. Well, I'm sure if you have, I was gonna say two, three siblings and what one's worked their life on the farm and the others haven't. I mean, that can cause uh problems if it's not addressed.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, well, we we have it regularly in that situation, but it I like to sort of call it sweat sweat equity, where someone's worked their life's work on the farm. Um, and I think it's if you have those open discussions straight away, that uh generally most people are in agreement where the succession should lie, but it's just making sure that the other people are are sort of provided for in a way that they feel adequate at the same time.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

I think well, Andrew, I was just going to add, I think, uh two quick points. So I think one of the ones is um a lot of the times with a lot of family family, family, family farms, is if they haven't had that kind of thought process early, the older generations quite often will just pile any profit they happen to make back into the farm, which by the time they then get to the point where they're trying to look at succession, they've got this great big asset, which uh well at the moment is generally quite valuable, doesn't necessarily earn uh anywhere near a sensible return on that value, but it's not divisible without sort of breaking the farming business. So I I had a client recently, and actually they made some quite early provisions. And what that meant was they they were drawing money away from the farm each year, but the farm just budgeted accordingly. So, you know, it just planned it, and then by the time they got to succession, they were able to divide their assets up in what they felt were a fair manner without then being detrimental to the business.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I was gonna say there's ways to do it, isn't there? Because I know myself I was still farming, knowing what the wheel was at the time. Um, I put a life insurance policy on my father so that there was a chunk of money to go to my my sip, my sister. And um, then if he passed, obviously still alive, so hadn't, um, that money would have been there, ready to pay her without it affecting the business, and the business could just carry on as it was. So, I mean, there are ways and means to uh look after some of these provisions, isn't there?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Um, life insurance, yeah. I always think of it as a bit of a um kind of pay as you go kind of option. So, yes, it's a it's a something that you are you or your business is going to have to fund as you go. But if if you've got enough foresight to take it out at a relatively young and healthy age, it's actually incredibly cost effective. Um it's just most people, when they're at that age, don't really want to think about life insurance, to be to be frank. So uh, but I think certainly since last year's budget, life insurance questions with the younger generation, now with all the succession planning that's going on, very much at the forefront because we all know that um if these rules are here to stay, then there are some potentially quite large tax liabilities in the future, whether it's many, many years down the road or whatever. And actually, you can get some pretty good life cover out, you know, less than £100 a month for some pretty hefty cover foot if you're pretty young. Um, and it's quite a cost-effective way at the end of the day of of managing. Um but unfortunately for those who are in advanced years now, it's now can't get the insurance or it's too expensive.

Andrew Jones:

But it's it's a way to ensure that there's mu uh or a way to cover money to pay out a sibling or whatever it is without affecting business as it's around, isn't it?

Willem Puddy:

Yeah. Every situation is so unique, isn't it? So it's it's just making sure you you're you're taking everything into account in your certain situation. But the life cover is is definitely a tool we're using in the toolbox uh as part of the succession planning we're doing at the moment.

Sarah Bolt:

So you spoke about others perhaps setting profits aside. Um are there any other ways that you can suggest that um people will start planning early on?

Willem Puddy:

I don't I don't know what Phil's talking about specifically himself, but I I've spoken a lot with clients around pensions, and I know pensions do get caught it come 2027 in the inheritance tax um calculation, but it's sort of another way of putting stuff away so that when if you're talking another generation down the line, so we've got over one hurdle and we've got the gifts out of the way, and then we're talking the next generation when they're in their 60s, actually starting to remove the pressure from the need from income from the farm because they've built up a pension over time, and then actually use the pension pot. So the idea is it doesn't get get get you, you don't have a value of it to go into your own estate. It allows the next generation, again at a very early stage, to sort of take take the farm on without having to pay mum and dad um their own salary. So it might even encourage people that you're saying to them, Well, I'm gonna put away into a pension so that you you will have the full reins of the farm and the income of the farm because I adequately provided for myself outside outside of the farm.

Andrew Jones:

I mean, I in an ideal situation, I mean, I know everyone's situation is different, etc., etc. But if you you look at it, people worry about maybe like you talked about a seven-year rule, didn't you just then sort of briefly pass and things on? In an ideal situation, and you talk about pensions, you live till you're 80. I mean, I guess you say the answer is as soon as possible. But at what stage should you be looking at different steps along that journey in terms of pensions, maybe life insurance, handing over? Because people are afraid if they hand the assets over, it might save and tax on the seven-year rule, but then they might lose control of things. And I guess that's where a pension might come in because you're ensuring that you've still got that income thing in. Is there a sort of a timeline where you go, well, in an ideal world in your 20s, you should be looking at this in your 40s, you should be looking at this, and in your 60s, you should be looking at that, or am I just pulling something out of the air and go, well, that's never gonna happen?

Willem Puddy:

Again, well, uh, I think pensions we're not well, I'm not a financial planner or advisor, so I definitely can't advise on any any sort of financial side of it. But it it is sensible to do pensions as early as you possibly can. I think the old the old idea that the farm's my pension needs to be sort of really challenged at the moment, um, and you've got to sort of set it aside. Um, but when you're going through the succession planning at the moment, I think it's extremely important that you are setting a plan or family plan, if this is a generational farm, in place now, where we are gifting the farm in our 60s, the next generation. Therefore, if we taught like if we are taking life insurance out now, we can take out term insurance till we're 75. Thereby, by 65, 66, 67, we've gifted what we needed to and started to draw on our pension. We are therefore technically retired in Creative Commons, because I know no farmer retired either. So um uh, but ultimately we we've we've we've uh taken ourselves away from the asset burden in our estate, hopefully, by the time we're 75. And if we haven't, then we have the insurance to back us up. Um, and also we've taken away the pressure of the draw to have the draw.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

I think I think the biggest problem really, and we we may as well say it because we all know it's an issue, is the fact that most farmers want to buy land typically. Land is quite an expensive asset that actually doesn't produce enough income for what it is. And so the problem you tend to get is people pile money into to buying a bit of land next door or wherever they want. And the problem is income. That's that's the problem. So whether it's income in your retirement, income during the lifeline of your business, if if there's enough income somewhere, then as William says, people can then make the decisions to hand things on. The problem is if you hand things on, you have to give up the right to the income generated from it. So so the problem in farming as a whole is is it's the amount of income in relation to the value of the asset. That's that's a huge problem. And that pretty much um all the tax and finance issues stem from that one issue. I mean, the reason the inheritance tax is such a problem is for that reason we got high-value assets that just don't produce enough income at the end of the day. If if each farm was getting a 20% return on the value of their farm, they'd probably just pay the tax, to be frank, because that you know, there'll be a lot more money washing around. But it it's just so low, it's so problematic.

Sarah Bolt:

I mean, if you had a pot of money looking at return on investments, there's no way that you'd go into farming, is there? Just purely at a at a return on investment point of view. Whether you had no passion to own land or whatever, but just from that, uh nobody would accept the returns that that farming appears to be giving.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Not not not the financial returns anyway.

Andrew Jones:

No, I was gonna say, I'm probably showing my age. I remember when we sold up in 97 before we moved to Oz, I had to do all the paperwork to assign, you know, the milk quota to the plots of land for my father, because obviously I had a computer, I knew how to use it. Uh and it's like, was what was the land, £3,000 an acre or something? Well, I mean, that's what, 20, not quite 30 years ago. And where is it now? It's more than quadrupled in price, probably as an average land price, hasn't it?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Yeah. But but when we when we're having our succession conversations, I mean, okay, the the problem you get, if there's multiple children who want to farm, then you've got issues of how you divide up this this asset. Some of them have got more than one farm, which then makes it quite easy. But for others, if it's if there's one central sort of farmstead, if you like, it could be quite hard to divide up. But it but most of the problems, William, I don't know about you, that we have apart from that, is income. It it's kind of well, okay, we want to give this away because of the tax, but actually, mum and dad need the income for their retirement, to be frank.

Willem Puddy:

And and do to challenge that point as well. Do we think that we've got to that position because of everyone holding on the assets longer? Like if if if we've reverse back 20 years and say you have people in their 18s and 90s holding the asset, if they gave away the asset 20 years ago, or they were having conversations with the next generation 30 years ago, that you've got to where we are now, if we've sorted the first generation out, that you've got to drive a an income from this asset, and we've got to diversify to get two families rather than one family or three families fed off of this land. Would would we have these those sticky situations of income? We might still have it.

Andrew Jones:

I'm I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works there because I was thinking about this and we were talking about death. But from what you were just uh saying, Will divorce maybe is is that one of the reasons why the older generation don't want to hand it down because they're afraid of divorce, and if that happens, it then splits the assets. How does that fit into it all into because that's still a succession, it's just in a different way, maybe. I mean, where does that fit into things?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Uh I was just gonna say it's definitely a reason why people haven't taken action. That I think the combination between that and the fact that the inheritance tax release were so generous before has meant that they had been able to avoid that problem. Yeah. So if they don't hand it on.

Willem Puddy:

Can I ask Philadelphia? And I'll I'm gonna ask a bit of a question, but do you think, Bill, that like I've been talking to clients recently that um we're gonna ignore policy moving forward? Because like the trust almost feels like the trust is gone in policy, that even if they locks the clients of cane, or if they the the next government comes and it could get back to 100%, but that could be five years, ten years, all of a sudden we could be back to where we are today in 15 years. So, do you think we're in a place now that we're just gonna be set in succession for the rest of time, effectively?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

I think I think what you'll find is um so we've got different generations who are some of them are having to take quite urgent acts action because of their health or or age. I think those that those generations that perhaps more have more time on their hands, probably, yeah, you're probably right with them. They're probably less focused on the tax, but more just putting in the adequate um like life insurance is a classic example as as fallback plans. So some many of them are actually taking out life insurance, not necessarily to support other non-farming members, but also just to cover tax, to be frank. Um so yeah, I do think that there are a lot who I've spoken to who are not rushing out and doing anything because that's just not the right time to uh hand assets on to their children for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because they're going through a difficult patch with their spouse.

Willem Puddy:

Which which is, I suppose, is when trusts come into play a bit then.

Andrew Jones:

You know, you might turn around, you're in your 60s, I should be handing it over. But you might go, well, my kids are now, I don't know, let's say mid-30s. Is it going to I or uh and and that sort of delays then some of the choices being made that in an ideal world should be made.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, well, yeah, it's that there comes a point, doesn't it, where you've got to make a mind on those decisions, and it is hard. I definitely agree with you that if you've got children in your 30s and you don't know whether marriage is always going to be sort of stable, but that is where we are doing work with trusts where we you can put the the gift that you would be passing down to children, you're now setting it into a trust. So explain explain trusts. So trusts effectively are just a piece of paper. Isn't everything yeah, yeah. Um, and rather than gifting or passing it down a generation, you can put elements into trusts. They they're extremely technical, sort of part of planning. And uh, I'm increasingly seeing people wanting to keep things simple. So it's not something we we sort of actively go out and sort of promote. It's something that we use for certain circumstances, but it's effectively ring fencing an asset. Um, people like to talk about it protecting the family silver, where you can you can put the asset in there, um, control the asset by being a trustee who looks after the asset within the trust, i.e., farmland, and then you can name beneficiaries who will be the the beneficiary of of the said income or asset within the trust at discretion, if it's a discretionary trust, of the trustees.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

What are the tax I think well I was just gonna say, sorry, Andrew, I was just gonna say, I mean, the trust there are lots of different types of trusts. I think the main thing is that they're really where you divorce the control of the asset, which is typically managed by people you appoint as trustees, versus the um sort of the, to be frank, the benefits of that asset. So uh there's a really simple level, which is if you set up a child's bank account, for example, legally that money sits in your name, but it's the child's money. That that is a form of trust. And there are more complicated versions, as sort of William's saying. I mean, typically we're we're looking at sort of what we call life interest trusts or discretionary trusts, um, which again doesn't allow uh the beneficiary direct access to the land to be able to decide to sell it and those sort of decisions, but they are entitled to the income and ultimate potentially ultimately having the land in the future, but depending on what sort of trust you got, they're they're not in control of when potentially that happens.

Andrew Jones:

So, what are the limitations on trusts then? Because it sounds like what you're saying is they might not be able to sell something, or is it I guess all the trustees have got to agree to a sale, is it? Or or where are the limitations on it? I guess what are the tax implications?

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, because tax implications going in into trust, so they're there, which all depends on when you're gonna do it this side of April next year, will make a big difference. Um, but then from then onwards there are tax every 10 years, so periodic 10-year charges. So is there the sort of downside? It it comes with another administration cost. Um you've got to have, like you mentioned, trustees, you've got to pick trustees. Um, sometimes you can end up with professionals as trustees as well. That comes with another cost of it. It can make things more costly, more complex, um less, less simple. Um, so it you've got to there's got to be reasons for for that the benefits are gonna outweigh the sort of negative side of these post-trusts. Yeah.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

I think I think it's probably um with the changes to the inheritance tax that are sort of coming in. There's a lot of appetite for setting up trusts because they look quite beneficial from an inheritance tax, but kind of as Willem just said at the end there, that they've got to fit the circumstances right because you can end up tying loads of things up into trusts and setting various different people as trustees. It might just make actually managing and running that business quite quite tricky at some stages. Um, so so classical one is if you you fragment all the ownership, banks struggle to lend money sometimes, or or it's not that they can't do it, it's just a lot more complicated. And so it just has to we can't let the I mean we shouldn't say this as accountants, but we definitely should say it. We shouldn't let tax be the determining factor on a lot of these uh decisions. Um, and I think that's probably the right thing to say for succession is tax shouldn't be the driver for succession, it should be everything else that's going on.

Sarah Bolt:

And that's the same as just ordinary incomes, isn't it? That actually plan to pay some tax, some income tax, and then you'll probably be even more profitable. And I guess it's the same with this that if you plan for it, you can then work better to achieve it. Yeah.

Willem Puddy:

I I like to always say I like to sort of start with families and say that we need to have a family plan, a family direction, your idea of your mediation and going away and having discussions to start with, to have a an end goal in sight, and then getting your advice is a really, really good place to start because then what you're doing is you like Phil says, you're not thinking about the tax, you're thinking about what you think's the best for the family, and then you can get the advice to see whether there's a route, a specific way you should go to that is tax efficient for well.

Andrew Jones:

I was gonna say, dare I say it, we should maybe look at tax as a positive. I know in my first year in business I got the accounts done, and I said to the accountant, Oh, I'm gonna have to pay too much tax. And it was it was literally nothing, don't get me wrong. And she went, Well, look at it as a good thing. It means you made money, you've been successful, you've done you're doing all right at what you're doing if you've got to pay tax. So, you know, we all hate it, but it's the way to look, it's maybe a positive way to look at it.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Well, I I I do sort of say that to a lot of people. And I think the um uh that one of the well, from a sort of tax-on sort of profit point of view, I mean, the main thing is just understanding when it will hit and planning ahead for it and if there are ways of mitigating it, knowing them in advance, so you can decide whether you want to do them or not. I think the difficulty though on the tax point is um for your working farmer who isn't looking to cash in on their farm, that the it's created a huge inheritance tax burden now with the with the new rules coming in, but it's not actually benefited them in in any way until they want to realise those assets, which for most of them they don't want to do because they wanted to go down through successor generations. And I think that's again coming back to it, is what you know, is the problem really is for the family business, whether it's farming or another asset-heavy family business, it's it's it's an issue really, because there might be tax leakage at every death for argument's sake, and and it there might not be much of a business left after.

Andrew Jones:

I know, I I I mean, I think I I think it's before we start, I said I don't want to make this political, but it just made me and I don't want to. But like you you've just said there, perfect example. I know a client of mine said he said, Look, I don't have a problem paying tax if we want to sell the farm at the death, because then okay, if we've got to pay capital gains or whatever, yeah, fair shout, we'll pay it. But he said the point is we want to keep going. And if we've suddenly got to pay 20% of our assets out as thing, he said it's just gonna cripple the business. And I wouldn't argue they're a big business, you know. Um, I you know, I don't know what off the top of my head, I think they're like 100, 150 cows, uh um 600 acres, they've got a fair bit of arable. But he said it's gonna hit our business really hard. Um, and uh and it's just as he said, he said, I'm quite happy. If I pay tax, I've got to pay it, but let me pay it at the appropriate time, which is as you say, when you want to cash the assets out, but they don't want to because they want to keep farming.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, you've been you've been pun, it feels farmers feel like they've been punished because of land inflation, uh, the cost the cost of land. And it's yeah, my my dad, when he bought the farm, he didn't buy it thinking it would increase in value to where it was today. Um, he would never have sold it the whole way through it. Um, he would never sell it at all. Um, and if the farm was worth the same as what he bought, so you'd still be doing the same thing. So it like you say, it's it's come uh it's sort of crept up on farmers over the last sort of 30 years. Uh and that's why it stings so hard. And I think there were simpler ways to deal with it on your individual.

Andrew Jones:

I'd probably say more in the last 30 years. I mean, I know I use that as an example, but again, I sort of take back to my grandparents when they brought the farm in the 60s. I think it was a farmhouse, the buildings, like 120 acres, I think 25,000 pounds. Which, you know, I mean, that would be my grandparents. If I was still farming now at there, obviously we went to Osm, whatever, but you know, third generation on that farm, then that'd be a hell of a markup from what that value was then back in the mid-60s to to where it is now. And that that would not be untypical of many farms.

Willem Puddy:

No, no, he's right. And it's it's uh well, I had a conversation with my parents where they bought a field 30 years ago, 35 years ago, um, and they were their first generation farmers, so they bought the farm. Uh, what would have been yeah, it would have been 35 years ago now. Um, and before they bought the farm, they bought a field, and they bought the field um as he was a farm manager, which was next door to our grandparents, and they managed within a couple of years to pay the loan off that bought that field. Like, you just can't do that these days. So there was a route into agriculture. My dad's probably the last generation that could probably do it for a minute, where they had to beg Braun still to get some of it to get the deposit down to do it, but they've managed to do that. I don't think you can go buy a 300-acre farm just being a farm manager these days. I think that is that is sort of where uh another problem is coming.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Well, I think I think the other thing is um so the land inflation, it's not farming that has created the land inflation, and it's it's things outside of farming. Now, yes, I undoubtedly some farmers have benefited from that. But when you think about it, the inheritance tax rules have probably impacted inflation land, plus things like development and so on. But they you know, it is an ever-reducing commodity, is farmland. And for some people who, for the incredibly wealthy out there, they can afford to sink incredibly large sums of money into it. You know, even these current rules where they're cutting the inheritance tax relief uh from 100% over a million down to 50%. I mean, if your option is paying full-rate inheritance tax or chucking a load of money into farmland and pretending to farm for two years and getting still getting 50% relief, I mean you can save colossal amounts of tax. And it's in it, and the system is not right to be frank, to allow that.

Andrew Jones:

You do say it though, Will and I'd argue it's it's been longer than that, because I certainly would remember uh am I now 50, so you know, 35 years, 40 years ago, it was, you know, where's the next generation coming from? Because it was milk quota, having to pay for the things, not just the farm, but having to pay for milk quota, you know, relative to it. It's it's I'm not saying it's right, but it I'd argue it's been an ongoing argument for a very long time that there's always um and people do still find a way. I mean, I suppose Sarah is saying as me, you do occasionally see those people that are out farming, have started, have managed to achieve what they've achieved, and you think, how have they done it? Because you know the hard work they must have done to have got there, and you sort of sit there and you think, you know, I'm probably too old now to be sort of doing things like that myself. But you know, you good on them. So that but you say it's not as easy as it is, is it? Because you say, you know, like milk roads are gone now, but now, as you say, not because of farming, but because of solar panels, houses, whatever, the value of land has just skyrocketed.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, and I think as some of the the clever farmers or the clever first generational farmers that we're seeing them are sort of always getting on their getting on a bit of land and not just seeing the income but seeing the the asset value and building their asset value up at the same time as the income to then sell and go again to realise some of it. Otherwise, it it's it's like Phil says, if you just try to do it out of income on the land that you've got, it's extremely hard to sort of build asset value up.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

I mean, it's you just think about, I mean, you you mentioned a client earlier, Andrew, 150 cows and um so on. I mean, you just think if you wanted to go into a farm, A, you've got to buy the farm, the B, you've then got to stock it, you've got to buy the machinery, you've need working capital, all of these things. It just adds up to a an incredibly large number. And we all know, yeah, you can go to the bank, but the bank wants you to have generally a proof uh that you can earn money, so i.e. you've got a record, okay, they might go off business plans. Even then, they're only going to lend you a percentage of the money you need to get going. And so the deposit you need to start with is a big sum of money. Well, where does that materialise from at the end of the day? So I know, I know.

Andrew Jones:

Again, I I take back to like the farm I grew up on. I mean, the farmhouse itself sold for the same amount of money that I had to pay for my house seven years ago, which is just ridiculous when I look at the scale of housing and it just shows how much things are moved on again, doesn't it? And say it makes me sound old. But I'm sounding like my parents go, ah, my father, I remember when they brought that farm for £25,000. Not by a lot for £25,000 anymore. And you're like, Yeah, okay, bad. I'm just bad.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Well, actually, can I can I go back to something you said a minute here, Andrew? So so in terms of divorce, because uh it's not a topic that everybody likes to talk around, but I mean it is always concern. I think um I've got I can think of two extreme cases where one said, Well, I'll give it to the children if they get divorced, that's their problem. Maybe you're annoyed their spouse so much that it's their own fault, or they or they pick the wrong one to start with. Uh, and another client who is sort of absolutely petrified of it, so just won't won't do anything. Um, but there are there are, we should say there are, you know, the last few years in particular, there are now you can do what's called pre-nuptial and post-nuptial agreements, which, if done right, can help to protect some of the family inherited wealth. Um, Will and I are not slit as we're not specialists in that, but there are sometimes it's just being open to have that discussion. It's quite a hard discussion to have, but if if it is a concern and it's causing problems to to that they need to do to sort succession out, well, you've got to just get it on the table and talk about it.

Andrew Jones:

Well, divorce like death is never an easy conversation. Uh, and as you say, you know, if you're you're just about to marry someone, you've got to say, well, you've got to sign this agreement first. It doesn't always go down very well, does it? Let's let's be honest. But unfortunately, it's the world we live in that these are the conversations you've got to have to protect the business moving forward.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Yeah, and and the life insurance, sorry, sorry, so the life insurance again. Will and I have had conversations with many clients that they give it all, give the assets away to the younger generation. But we do then have to say, well, what happens if you have a sudden death to the younger generation? You know, that could, you know, as bad as that is for every other level, it's also colossally bad from an inheritance tax perspective. So, you know, that's where your life insurance for the younger generation, where they are now suddenly worth a lot of money, can be very, very valid, I think.

Andrew Jones:

Well well, if given that we're only six months away from less than that now, really, from the new rules kicking as it's 6th of April, whenever it is 2026. If people haven't done anything, what should they be doing? Because I mean, I know again, I said I'm trying not to make this political, but I know talking to a client, and it was, oh yeah, how's Nan? Oh, she's not too good. And she sat there thinking maybe I should die before April because that's so I don't get dragged into these inheritance tax rules. And we've all heard stories about this in the press, and it's a very sad situation for us to be in, and it but it is the situation we'd be in. So I mean, really, if people haven't done anything, what is your advice for people to to uh to do? It's it's got to be act, surely talk and act has got to be what people have got to do from this.

Willem Puddy:

Yes, yeah, no, no, definitely. I think you've we we've got a fairly robust structure that we sort of work through, but straight away you need to be making contact with with your advisors, your your accountants, solicitors, um, to understand who owns what, because you know, a lot of farming families, it's just been in the assets, been in the family for generations, and you know, they don't really know who who owns what percentage of what field. Um, that allows us to build uh a picture of uh of value that will land in their estate, which we can then sort of estimate tax liabilities, which was then from that that platform, we can then sort of look at different ideas um to to sort of reduce the inheritance tax, and that's where we talk about gifts and and trusts and any sort of structure that suits that specific family. But until you until you actually have a look at it, you A, you don't know if you've got a problem or not for starters, because some people might not actually have a problem. Um, and on the flip side of it, the ones who think a lot of clients I've sat with over through this process who say, I don't think I've got a problem, ended up having a problem anyway before April because of other assets they hold.

Andrew Jones:

It's like everyone, you've got to quantify it first, haven't you?

Willem Puddy:

Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

The first thing to do, as Willem said, is just to pick up the phone and talk to someone who probably knows what they're talking about because the rules are complicated and and uh you know, without being political, it doesn't really matter which which political party it is, they're all very quick to chuck around figures. And so there's they'll suddenly start talking about a three million pound figure, for example. So if someone's sat there and they're on their own and think, well, my farm's not worth three million pounds, I haven't got an issue, but they forget that these numbers they're chucking around, there's lots of different little clauses that you've got to tick to get it. And also that figure's based on to a couple, not on a single person. So there's so many little variances that they just got to pick up foam and and speak sign.

Willem Puddy:

It's the wheel point as well. That three million pounds also just assumes that you've got your wheels sorted and you're you're not passing everything over because the million pounds are not transferable in the finance bill, the draft finance bill that came out. So it's assuming a lot that three million pounds is just set up. And most people historically just have mirrored wheels that pass everything to each other, which historically has been fine. But now, if you've got if you exceed that million pounds, is is is sort of catching you out massive. It's 200,000 pounds worth of tax that you're losing out on.

Sarah Bolt:

So a couple of times we've mentioned having that difficult conversation. Have either of you got any top tips as to how somebody within the farming family can actually just broach that subject? Have you got anything that you can uh any gems of information you can share with us?

Andrew Jones:

It's not just in farming, it's any families, isn't it? Let's be honest.

Sarah Bolt:

It's any difficult conversation, probably, Andrew, but any top tips that we can share?

Willem Puddy:

Well, my would yeah, well, my number one will be set a time where you can all sit down away from any distractions. I think it's very, very easy in families when you've got young with grandchildren about and stuff like that to get together. But you're never going to talk about what's necessary, and that's with partners as well. I think you need to have that separate time when it's just the the immediate family that needs to have a discussion about what's going on with no no partners, no children, unless the partners are part of it, I suppose is is sort of it. But the people that it affects need to be sat around the table and just get the ball rolling, like yeah.

Andrew Jones:

That's a very sensible one, actually, because I know myself I was asked uh just help a client family and have us a comment. Now he said, Oh, we're great, we get them all together. So the grand what the grandparents now, but then the kids, and now they've got young grandchildren coming along as well. But we're not actually sitting down to have those business conversations, they become more of a social conversation, and it was kind of that was sort of what I said to them. He said, Well, you need to make time when it is just you as the the the the partners in the business, now whether who that happens to be need to be just you, that's it, no distractions, that's it. And they went, Yeah, that's the difficult thing, is trying to make that time. We say we're gonna do it, but we never do because the grandkids do this, or so yeah, that's a great tip, definitely.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

So I would completely echo that. I mean, because it's the thing that nobody wants to talk about. So if there's anything else remotely that you can talk about or avoid it, people do. Um so you know, so we we'll Willem and I will go to meetings and we say, yeah, we're coming to talk about the accounts, but also we're going to talk about succession. And then funnily enough, the people there they let the accounts dominate the conversation until there's no time left to talk about the succession or something. So they just don't want to talk about. But I think Willem's absolutely right. The second thing I would add is I think people think it will be solved in like one hit. Sometimes you have to have more than one conversation. You know, it is generally, unless you've got very clear and easy ways of doing what you want to do, it is a it is a progression sort of thing. And sometimes you might only solve an initial part of it, and you agree that actually the second part of it is really difficult to sort out. Let's go away and think about a few ideas and come back to the table. Because I think that's the problem. Everybody thinks, well, we sit down for a couple of hours and we have this grand plan worked out, and they don't understand the reason why they haven't discussed this, is because it's an incredibly difficult subject sometimes. Um, you know, sometimes the numbers and the assets and the people don't fit right, to be frank, and difficult decisions have to be made. So yeah, I think that sometimes is people's expectations. Sometimes you just got to get the problem out and aired, and you don't resolve anything initially, you but you air the problem.

Willem Puddy:

Definitely, yeah. Yeah, I think that is that's huge, to be honest, because a lot of the stuff we've been doing recently feels very time pressured, and you cannot do it all. There's no way we're gonna be able to do everything before April next year. We will get the best plan we can in place before April next year, but then we will not stop talking about it. It will be a continuous thing with clients because it's it's just not easy. It's this stuff is not easy on a on a technical level, but also on an emotional level.

Sarah Bolt:

I I've got a bit of a theory that it's sort of hand in hand really with business strategy. In theory, no business sets a strategy and then sticks with it. That strategy is ever evolving. And actually, for a farming business, as that strategy evolves, some of that succession planning will have to evolve alongside it, and therefore they both almost need revisiting sort of in tandem rather than sort of as two separate things.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, well, your your strategy, your business strategy should head on into your succession planning. Yeah, so that you I don't think you can have one without the other, quite frankly.

Andrew Jones:

Definitely. Okay. Um, I'm just looking at the time now. Um, Phil, we'll start with you. Any last sort of words of wisdom yourself? Anything we haven't covered that you want to talk about?

Philip Kirkpatrick:

That's that's a that's a good question. I think we covered a lot of ground. I think the um we you'll probably say we're bound to say this, bearing in mind it's our job. But I think it's just speak to just speak to people. So communication, it sounds pretty cheesy because everybody says it, but it is probably the most important thing. So communicate with the family members if you're able to do that. If you're not kind of able to have those conversations for whatever reason, communicate with uh a trusted advisor. Now that doesn't necessarily have to be an accountant or a solicitor, it can be kind of anyone, it could be a trusted friend or whatever, but just engage that conversation to get it going. But you do need technical support. There are um people who in their heads get succession right and they go and do it, and then the financial implications they haven't considered then just are an absolute car crash, and actually trying to put them right after the event is incredibly hard. And sometimes, you know, we shouldn't let the tax uh dictate what happens, but it is a very important part of all these discussions, and it can be doing it wrong can be extremely costly, is what I'd say. So communication is key, but communication with kind of within the family or or non-family if it's uh you know, if you're in a business with friends or whatever, but the uh yeah, communicate with the right people, and if you can't have those family discussions, don't be afraid to bring in, like you said, a mediator facilitator, as you quite rightly say. But we covered a lot, a lot, uh, quite a lot. We're trying not to be too technical in some of the stuff. Um, we could talk about technical bits of trust and so on forever and a day, I say. But um, no, I think we've covered a lot of ground. Good, good. Willem.

Willem Puddy:

I think we just add adding to what Phil said, is it is extremely important, I believe, at every farm, no matter your size, you have your own board table. And what that would be is is you obviously your partners, but your your accountant, financial planner, your solicitor, your land agent, those those guys and involve involving everybody um on those big decisions so that they're joint up because it's sometimes you can end up going to a solicitor or an accountant, and not they're not talking to each other. Everyone's got to be playing. So building that board table, and then using that board table who they know everyone, who they are, making help make you make those decisions in the best way possible. Um you don't have to you don't have to take their advice, but but using it a bit more in the way that traditional business is done is sort of it farming sort of it has to sort of be in that world these days because it is too complex to sort of just just have a go yourself.

Andrew Jones:

Right, it is, it's having everybody try and pull in the same direction, isn't it? Because if you don't have the whole picture, you might not understand why somebody's made the decision that they've made to do it a particular way. Whereas if you're all everyone's aware, then oh right, okay, not what I expected, but yes, I understand why that works.

Willem Puddy:

Yeah, yeah, it's it's important.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

And I did I just think we did we did say a minute ago, but again, the not trying to take you you need to take action at bite-sized chunks some of the time. So sometimes people will say, well, we don't want to take any action until we got this complete worked up plan. But um, certainly from a tax perspective. I mean, I can think of one client up in Somerset where they're not ready to to kind of do the succession in full, but they've got quite a you know quite a big farm and they definitely knew they were going to give away a couple hundred acres to one of the sons. So I said, well, just get on and do that bit now. And and you know, just that itself, if the worst happens and you pass away, that will save a lot of inheritance tax, let alone kind of the full plan. So again, I think it's it's just having the conversations at the end of the day and and not being afraid to voice your opinions.

Sarah Bolt:

Sarah I'm very much one for um start with an action plan. And I think maybe it's step one is just thinking about reviewing your will, or if not writing your will, and actually just maybe just start that action plan very small at that level to then move it forward from there.

Philip Kirkpatrick:

Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean, effectively, just think what you would like to happen, really, isn't it?

Sarah Bolt:

Yeah.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, I like that. It's it's starting that con the end of the day, the difficult bit is starting the conversations, isn't it? Once you've Usually start at them, they then roll on and it makes it easier. But the difficult bit usually is starting those initial conversations. So really that's that's what's going to happen. Uh as you say, if we've got to bring the facilitator to make them happen, make time for them to happen, not just think they're going to happen while you're having breakfast or whatever it is. You've got to put time aside to do it. So have those conversations and enroll from there, have a plan of what you'd like to happen and bring in the advice to make sure it's going to happen in the right way, in the most cost-effective way, or whatever it happens to be, but it's to suit you and what you need as a as a family, as a business moving forward so that you're not affected by a huge tax bill or whatever it is that cripples the business then to go forward. People want to keep a lot of farmers are there because they want to be farming, not worrying about usually this kind of stuff in the background. This has just got to happen, but it's not what should be driving the business in terms of a huge tax bill or whatever it happens to be. But um otherwise, I'd like to say thank you very much to both our guests, Willem and Phil. It's been uh it's been fantastic to have you. It's um uh it's been an enjoyable hour, definitely. It's been a good conversation. Uh, and hopefully, as you say, as you said, Phil, we always try not to get too technical, just give people some things to think about and then go away and get their advice from whoever they deal with. So that's the whole point. So that's great, because you say I think we could lose most people if we talked about trust too much. Um but uh but no. So on that, I'd like to say thank you to you both. I guess it's a goodbye from me. Thank you very much.

Sarah Bolt:

It's a goodbye from me too, thank you.

Andrew Jones:

Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Tune the Cud Podcast, podcast for the UK dai industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness, or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of Tune the Cud Limited. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Tune the Cud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by TuneTheCud Limited, visit www.tuneTheCud.com. Thank you and goodbye.