ChewintheCud Podcast

The Walk to the Land of the Long White Cloud

• ChewintheCud Ltd • Season 4 • Episode 12

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What really makes a cow go lame, and why did it take so long to change our minds? We sit down with Professor Jon Huxley—raised on a Welsh dairy, now leading Massey University’s vet school in New Zealand—for a candid tour through research that reshaped mastitis control, lameness prevention, and fresh cow care.

Jon shares the story behind teat sealants becoming a cornerstone of selective dry cow therapy, showing how solid trials helped cut antibiotic use without compromising udder health. We then tackle the big pivot in lameness thinking: moving beyond the old acidosis-laminitis narrative to the digital cushion, body condition, and the brutal role concrete plays in claw horn lesions. The result is a practical blueprint—protect condition around calving, improve surfaces and cow flow, and trim with function in mind.

Treatment gets equal airtime. Randomised trials demonstrate why NSAIDs matter for lame cows, reducing inflammation and pain to speed recovery. Extend that approach to fresh heifers and the benefits often reach into second lactation. From there, we zoom out: are mastitis, metritis, ketosis, and lameness different faces of the same early lactation inflammatory stress? If the transition cow is the most fragile athlete on the farm, then feed space, comfort, calm routines, and energy balance are one system, not a checklist.

We also compare UK housed systems with New Zealand’s pasture-first dairying: longer walks on laneways, fewer hours on concrete, and lower lameness, but rising buffer feeding, new shelters, and tough conversations on nutrient leaching. Along the way, John explains how Massey’s hands-on facilities and the Kiwi “give it a go” mindset produce work-ready vets who can turn evidence into action.

Listen for clear, usable insights on mastitis prevention, lameness treatment, digital cushion management, underfoot design, and the transition period. If you want fewer sore feet, fewer sick fresh cows, and more sustainable milk, this conversation pulls the science onto the yard. Enjoy the ride—and if it helps, share it with a friend, subscribe, and leave a quick review to support the show.

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Andrew Jones:

This is the Chewing the Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to Chewing the Cud Podcast. My name is Andrew Jones, and with me today is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt:

I'm very well, thank you, Andrew. How are you keeping?

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, not too bad. It's that time of year. It's our Christmas episode.

Sarah Bolt:

I know. It's it's really exciting for me because it's my first one.

Andrew Jones:

Is it? It is, isn't it?

Sarah Bolt:

It's my first Christmas episode, yes. So I'm I'm really quite excited.

Andrew Jones:

Well, like usual, it's our Christmas episodes. We try to make it a little bit more relaxed, a little bit less technical, but still a good conversation for you to listen into. So it was an absolute pleasure to finally catch up with our guest um for this year. Uh many of you will know him, um, and uh hopefully you'll enjoy listening to him. But I should say there's one thing I need to correct in there. Um, in it I stumble and say that England ran the Rugby World Cup in 2003 um 2001, and it wasn't, it was 2003. I can't believe I made that mistake.

Sarah Bolt:

And and my poor little blonde brain couldn't manage to correct you.

Andrew Jones:

Not your fault at all. And then when I'm going, oh you know, the Kiwis and the Aussies rule uh because they lost, but at least the other one lost as well, that was obviously 2007. I can't believe I was um thinking it was uh two years earlier, but but there you go. But obviously, it's our Christmas episode, so uh we wish all of our listeners uh a Merry Christmas, and we hope you get to spend some time with your friends and family and get to enjoy yourself. And it's a a relatively stress-free time because you know um things need to still be done at home and on the farm. Um so yes, um hoping that goes well for you.

Sarah Bolt:

It's a Merry Christmas from me too.

Andrew Jones:

And then we've got uh a little bit of exciting news we want to share, haven't we, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt:

We have some more exciting news. I can two exciting things on this uh on this episode. Well, the first one I was excited because it was the first Christmas one that I was doing. Oh yeah, and now it's something even more exciting.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, we we can't we can't say too much at the moment, but just listen out um for our next episode in January. Uh we have got something planned for the new year, uh something a little bit different that we're hoping uh will be of interest to people. Um, and so yeah, listen to our uh episode beginning of January, where we'll give you a few more details. But until then, let's go and talk to our guest and uh enjoy the conversation. This podcast has been brought to you today by TuneTheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, cow signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. More details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.tunethecud.com or email us directly on nutrition at tune the cud.com. TuneThe Cud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. More details, please visit our website www.tunethecud.com or email us directly on training at tune the cud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt:

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones:

And welcome to the TuneTheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt:

Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.

Andrew Jones:

We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.

Sarah Bolt:

We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself, can it be done differently?

Andrew Jones:

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Sarah Bolt:

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Andrew Jones:

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Sarah Bolt:

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Andrew Jones:

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Sarah Bolt:

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Andrew Jones:

Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome to Tunic Cud Podcast. Today we have a guest that I'm absolute pleasure to have um with us today. I first met him a good few years ago now, I guess it must be, uh, just as he was finishing an AHDB talk at the time, a farm locally, uh we got chatting. Um, and then uh I was who I was working for at the time did a nutrition meeting, and we had himself and Dr. Brian Vernon come and talk to us um as the speakers for that meeting. Um, and then obviously he's gone overseas and have followed his career. And interestingly, I met one of his students a couple of years ago who's been a guest on here, James Wilson. The first thing I said to him is, That's our guest's work, you're based that on. He went, Yeah, it is, and it builds from there. So it's an absolute pleasure, because I think his work is very under-referenced personally, um, to have John Huxley with us. Good morning, John. How are you? Good morning, Andrew. I'm very well, thank you. Good, good. And how is it in New Zealand?

Jon Huxley:

Honestly, really great. It's it's a very strange thing moving to a different part of the world. Uh, but I've had to come to the dawning realisation that I actually make a better Kiwi than I ever did a Brit. And that that is honestly, it's a really weird thing to have to say, but it's I'm I'm afraid it's absolutely true.

Andrew Jones:

It definitely is an experience moving halfway around the world, isn't it? Having obviously uh lived in Oz for 10 years to to um uh to change from here to there, it it's just it's the same but different. And until you do it, people don't quite realise what it is.

Jon Huxley:

Yeah, no, it's it's absolutely right, and it it it's a it's a fabulous part of the world. Um you know, it is it makes sense. A Brit down here, Australia, New Zealand, everything makes sense, everything is easy apart from the little bits and pieces. Uh, and that's one of the things that makes it makes it great, but then it's also entirely different. Um, we just love the entire family, just love New Zealand. We're we're outdoor people, and as anybody who's been here will know, New Zealand is just the most amazing place. So we spend as much as we time as possible in the great big uh outdoor playground that is New Zealand.

Sarah Bolt:

It sounds fantastic. It makes me think my biggest regret of my life was that I got um when we were at uh when I was at uni in uh at White College, we were offered the opportunity to go for a year to Massey, and I I never took that opportunity. It was the 90s, it was the 90s, and and travelling to New Zealand wasn't sort of the done thing. And as I say, the more the more I've gone through life, the more I've regretted it.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I was gonna say, I mean, that is you are currently dean and head of school at Masse University. Now, I mean, all I particularly know about Massey is I believe my vet in North Queensland went to Massa University and might have even done a bit of teaching there. I can't remember. Um, that's obviously going back a little bit. But John, as we usually do, tell us about yourself. How did you get to New Zealand? What's your career been up to now to make that change?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah, thanks, Andrew. Um, so I I was born and bred dairy farming in North Wales. So my dad was a third generation um on the on the family farm. Uh, I've got actually both brothers now farming family farm, and it's just starting to look like it'll transition to our fifth generation with their with their kids. So we were we were just a dairy farming family from North Wales, and and uh it uh my uh I always said that I was either going to be uh uh an accountant or a vet because those were the sorts of people you saw. You know, the lead we had limited exposure to the outside world in in rural North Wales. Uh so I had a fantastic mentor, uh a vet called Keith Senior from Barclay Moore Partnership in Whitchurch, who who really became my great mentor um when I was a uh a student and he set me going on on vetting. So I left rural North Wales in in 1990 and went into the middle of central London to the rural vet college, which was a massive culture shock, which still still makes me smile. Uh I and I just never then just did betting, really. So um uh graduated in the mid-90s wanting to do dairy. Um I have vaccinated a dog once in my career. It was traumatic for both sides. Um I I've just done dairy all the way through, really. So um I went for I had 12 months of Bristol after I graduated, then three years in practice in North Wales at Daleside, what was called Daleside Ventury Group, um in Wrexham. Uh and then then went back to do a PhD actually. Keith, so this great mentor, Keith Senior, had uh he I remember him stopping. One day uh we were driving around the the dairy farms of Shropshire, uh, and he stopped, he pulled over, which he often did when he got something important to say to me. And so Keith had pulled over and he looked at me. And Keith would have been in his mid-50s at the time, and his shoulders were gone because he'd done dairy his entire career. And he said, Look, if you want to do this, you need to promise me something that you'll future proof yourself, so you don't end up like me with with uh shoulders completely shot in your 50s. Um, and he said, You need to future proof yourself. So uh Keith told me I've got to do a PhD, even as a when I was an undergraduate. So I did what Keith told me and I went back to academia uh and then actually have never left. So I found my calling in uh as an academic uh vet. So I worked at um Bristol Vet School and then as one of the foundation staff on the new school, the new vetery school at Nottingham. Um, and then one cold November day in in 2017, I was sitting in my office at Nottingham and a very interesting job advert came across my LinkedIn feed, and uh it was for the job at Massey, and and within six months we'd we'd sold up our life in the UK and moved our then four and two-year-olds, and and we moved to New Zealand in April 2018. Been there seven and a half years. Has it been that long now?

Andrew Jones:

Time goes, doesn't it? It does. That makes me think when did we meet? When when did you do that talk for us? That must be back. That's going back a little bit. What was your PhD in at uh Bristol?

Jon Huxley:

So so I actually did mastitis was my original PhD. So I did the licensing trial um that became the work that got Orbiceal, um, the teeth sealant licensed in the UK. That was my PhD. Um, so I was always originally mastitis and and dry period control. Uh and the the reason I got into lameness was when we moved to Nottingham, my great my great collaborator, uh my great academic collaborator, Martin Green, uh, and I both ended up at Nottingham. And and as I'm sure uh you and many of your listeners will know, Martin has done a huge amount of the work uh with Andrew Bradley on mastitis in the UK. And I just made a strategic decision to go, we should broaden this because if we're both in the same place, um uh and I went, well, lameness, lameness has been completely underdone. And so I I took a took a shift and took a punt on uh on giving lameness research again.

Andrew Jones:

So that that was that was simply it was almost finger in the air. We need to we've got we're we're concentrated here, let's broaden what we're doing. Lameness looks a good choice.

Jon Huxley:

Well you know, it was that all reproduction, wasn't it? You know, anybody will say, you know, the big three infertility, lame uh lameness, and mastitis. Uh and I was much more interested in lameness than I was infertility.

Andrew Jones:

So but honestly, there was nothing more to it than that. But uh I mean, but the work you've done has been great on that. But I mean, how's it been in New Zealand in what do you say seven and a half years since you've been there? I mean, obviously you could you've you didn't start as uh dean and head of school, did you at the time? Or I I don't know how that was your career. That that was or sorry, that was your position straight in in New Zealand.

Jon Huxley:

Yeah, so I was recruited into into the head of inter factually the head of school role um from the UK. So uh yeah, no, it's it's been great. We we love New Zealand. Uh Masivet School is a really great school. It's got we've got a really good reputation um globally, uh rep global reputation for producing uh work-ready, practical, down-to-earth graduates, um, which in part is down to the the Kiwi, the Kiwi attitude, uh and and partly just because of how we've always taught remote science at MASIC.

Sarah Bolt:

So, what are the main differences, do you think? What we can you put your finger on what those main differences between how um you do it at Massey versus say Avet schools here in the UK?

Jon Huxley:

Oh yeah, and I I you know I I well what what I was I'd say a few things. I would say first of all, um it's partly down to Kiwi mentality. Uh the the Kiwis just get on and give it a go. Um there's a there's a phrase phrase uh in New Zealand called the number the number eight wire mentality. So number eight wire is is the uh is is the the classic fencing wire in New Zealand, but of course can be used for absolutely anything. You know, it can be repurposed for for a million tasks. And so in part it's that number eight wire mentality. And I'm sure, honestly, that's because New Zealand is is still so close to founding. You know, it's not that many generations when uh when New Zealand Farms and New Zealand was was being cut out of the bush and and and the bush was being felled and the farms and uh and the country were being formed. And so that still hangs around in the Kiwi mentality. Um so Kiwis will just get on and give it a go. So I think that's part of it. And and and of course, uh alongside that, Kiwis also travel. That you you you'll find Kiwis all over the world because they just travel. Um and then and then probably in terms of of what we do, it it's always been quite a practical applied course, and in in part that's down to Massey's history. So Massey was founded as as New Zealand's agricultural college um just well, 98 years ago, actually, we're coming up to our centenary. Um, and we are so well endowed with uh with facilities. So um we've still got eight farms um in it at Massey, uh, you know, you know, two dairy farms with a thousand cows, um, you know, which is just now unheard of in the UK for the for the level of access to farms that we have. We've got a deer unit, a dog unit, a cat unit, beef and sheep units. Uh, you know, we've just we've just got all of those facilities.

Andrew Jones:

Um, and that really helps, obviously. But I I I know what you're saying, Intel, in terms of almost frontier spirit, isn't it? Because I mean, when we're in North Queensland, that had been a at the time, what that didn't mean cleared like 80 years at the time, it's probably about a hundred years now. And I mean, some of the farm at the time had only been cleared 10 years, and you looked at it and went, Why was this even cleared? Because the topography of the land, you know, it was just like it, you know, some of it was still was scrubbed, was bush basically, that you didn't you just didn't go in. And if you didn't get the if you didn't move heifers, say by nine o'clock in the morning, you didn't have a chance because they disappeared in the scrub and didn't have a chance to get them out. No, it's absolutely right.

Jon Huxley:

And and and of course, the other thing that that plays into it is the the population density is in New Zealand, you know, it's it's it's a land area bigger than the UK with with five million people on it, and and actually then over a million of those are in Auckland. So, you know, the the rest of the the the the two main islands uh the population density is really low. And so you you have to get on with it. You know, in rural New Zealand, there is nobody else around, and so if you don't sort it out yourself, no nobody's gonna come and help. So and you know, that like that plays out in in Kiwi mentality. So, you know, people will still stop. If you broke down in New Zealand, you'd get bored of telling people you didn't need help for the number of people that would stop and offer to help.

Andrew Jones:

But but you're right in terms of population. I remember when the Kiwis come working for me, he'd been to where'd he been? Brisbane, I think, before he came to me, or something like that. And it was like, oh, there's like a million people, whatever whatever Brisbane was at the time, I can't remember. And it just blew his mind that there was that many people. So we sat down and said, Um, don't ever go to London. And he's like, Why is that? I said, Because there's eight or nine million people in all of London, and he was just, you know, that there was twice the population of New Zealand just in one city, just blew his mind, and he just he just couldn't comprehend with it. But yeah, like as you say, it's a a different thing. The other thing, maybe I should or shouldn't say this, it was quite funny when I was in in Australia. All the jokes people make about the Welsh here and sheep, they make about the Kiwis and sheep. It's exactly the same jokes, you just reply replaced Welsh with Kiwi and vice versa. So um, but yes, yes, it's say it's it was always good fun, always good fun. There there is a healthy rival rivalry across the Tasman between Australia and New Zealand. Well, you say that, I mean the Kiwi, they say he got a bit offended whenever we kept uh when those jokes kept made up, and his excuse was that uh now it's really an Aussie that got caught, and uh when he got asked who he was, he said, Oh, I'm a Kiwi, and that's why all the all the jokes came around. As you say, there's always always a good, healthy rivalry, and the other good one that always remembered me was the hold on, what what World Cup would it be? England won the World Cup in 2001, wasn't it, in the rugby. And 2005, we didn't look like we were going to do very well. In the end, we'd end up getting to the final, and the next morning came in, England had won. Yeah, happy days was it quarterfinals, and the Kiwis were like, oh, but at least the Aussies didn't win. And then you saw the Aussies members of staff, and they were like, Oh, but at least the Kiwis didn't win, and I'm like, Yeah, but England did, and and and love the fact that we got to the final. Yeah, we got thrashed, was it, by South Africa? I think it was. But the point was no one expected England to get that far at that point, and I just had to go, well, we are still the World Cup winners at this point, and then anyway, we managed to keep going further than both home. It's quite an amusing time, but but yes.

Sarah Bolt:

So going back to your your PhD, John, um, did you ever think um at the time how important teat sealers could become? And, you know, sort of now the role of teat sealants um in the control of mastitis and in the reduction of antibiotics and and everything else. Did you foresee that when you were doing that work?

Jon Huxley:

Or I oh, it's difficult to look back, isn't it? You know, the you it's the the retrospector scope is a is an is an amazing tool. Um I I think we realize at the time what what what the product was. You know, and again, it's it's that's a piece of originally a piece of Kiwi, uh Kiwi ingenuity, T seal, all the original T-Sail work was done in New Zealand. And I think we we thought I think we realized it was it had got a huge amount of potential. We hadn't quite got the pressure on antibiotics 25 years ago that we certainly do now. But even then if you really sat down to think it through and to um just to really think through the potential and what it could do. I yes I I mean I and then of course the the real advantage was that all the data started coming out showing that actually in straight comparison in uninfected cows it was as good if not better than antibiotics. And so you know once we got the data you you just go well this surely is an is a no-brainer. And it it still makes me smile that it's taken 20 plus years to get to the level of market penetration that probably it should have it should have got to it's a we it's really clever technology.

Sarah Bolt:

I think it's the only rumor target that we're not actually meeting I think in the UK. I think all of the other targets all the rumor targets we've met with you know sort of dry cow tubes, milking lactating cow tubes, but I think it's just the use of uh teat sealant still hasn't quite reached the rumour targets which is quite interesting really.

Jon Huxley:

So my my my my favourite story about my PhD is uh before we s we before we started the trial um we were just going out starting to get used to I was um well clearly I'd done a lot of milk I'd milk a lot of cows and I'd done a lot with cows but um just getting used to uh uh administering the product and in about the third cow that uh I injected uh the the product into she kicked and she managed to trap my finger between a hock and and and the bar in the parlour and smashed the end of this finger into about 17 different different pieces so I I started my PhD with this the or this fingeralls this my first finger all strapped up hurt like hell yeah I mean it's it that it's a great product I mean I remember first using it North Queensland I think we tried it before we were going we knew we were going to Victoria but tried it so you know because we obviously want that extra protection moving those cattle 2000 miles so that would have been when did we move there 2004 so it must have been early 2004 probably tried it but obviously we would it was following it was antibiotic and then teat sealant and I certainly remember the first couple of cows like oh this is a weird bit of mastitis and then you realize and it sort of just rubbed like toothpaste on the deck of the platform you're like oh it must be the teet sealant and then it just went from there and then so any dry cows that went down to Victoria we made sure they had teat sealant as well to give them that extra protection I mean it's a it's a great piece of um product and I'd say at the time that as you say there wasn't the antibiotic pressure so we antibiotics and teat sealant so sort of double hit but now it's a different ball game isn't it no it's exactly right. So then obviously that was your PhD what then drew you to Nottingham the fact that they had there was that they they were starting the vet school and there was the opportunity to go forward from there yeah they that that that was literally it I was at that point in my career I sort of um uh I'd cut my teeth and uh I was in that that really sweet spot in your career in your early 30s where you you feel like you can change the world and and the opportunity to to start uh be involved in starting a new school was was just too good to miss uh you know at the time it was the first new vet school since Bristol had been founded more than 50 years previously so it's not like those opportunities had come up very often so no and and the other thing was um the the founding dean actually still the still the the head of school Gary England uh had taught me at London when I was an undergraduate and I'd known Gary for a long time so I'd got a a lot of faith in Gary so uh yeah I went up to went up to Nottingham that this that was fantastic time I loved starting the new school at Notting it was great fun I so that'd be a lot of fun get being you know feet in first and and and starting from the ground up must have been a lot of fun. Yeah exactly right blank sheet of paper being able to just go actually we don't need to do this do replicate what's always been done you know we just you the opportunity to start from from scratch with a blank sheet of paper you know that doesn't come along very often and so it's just really good point in my career. Loved it really proud of what we achieved um founding the new school at Nottingham.

Andrew Jones:

So having chosen lameness as your direction of travel who would have been your I guess mentors at the time or who would have been your influences in terms of what you decided to look at, where you decided to go I guess the name obviously Roger Blowy's mentioned quite a lot over here, you know what guided you initially once you'd chosen down that path I I think what was and it it's actually to be fair it's true of an awful lot of of veterinary medicine is that when you really scratch through the thin veneera of evidence that we think we have behind a lot of what we do you you realize that it's very superficial.

Jon Huxley:

And lameness was one of those ones where there was a lot written about lameness but very little research base underpinning what what was written. And that's not saying that you know what's written in textbooks was wrong but we didn't know it was right and there's in in science that's a really key and critical critical difference. And so what one of the things was that the evidence base for what we were doing in lameness was just so fundamentally lacking. We were making some assumptions and uh and it's um anyway if you if you look back on the the the history of of of our understanding of claw horn lesions in cattle it was all based on a on a really um uh it really wasn't based on much there was there was very little underpinning it and so that's that's really how I ended up there.

Andrew Jones:

I was gonna say I I should say I had the pleasure of meeting Roger for the first time sometime this last year when he gave a talk and he's a fantastic talker well worth listening to if you ever get the opportunity um but um but it's interesting you say lameness has has changed a lot just in my lifetime um I was talking to a son of a client the other day and I said oh you know that's where I remember as a child so probably 45 plus years ago now didn't have a crush cow was just tied up at the front leg over the in the leg over the beam of the the old stone shed that was there and a cow swinging itself around as my father tried to sort out whatever lame problem was and I remember then having a first crush and me and my sister playing with it we must have only been I don't know six seven something like that this wonderful thing a crush I mean just how much things have changed in in in my lifetime in terms of the practicalities let alone the the research from your side of things and and what that's brought to it but just the the sake I suppose the safety on farm as well for the cow and for the operators isn't it I mean from having a cow that just swings around when its legs over a wooden beam compared to some of the crushes you've got these days is it's a massive change.

Jon Huxley:

Yeah no it it it absolutely is but uh you know I think the other thing we we have to remember about lameness is lameness is a production disease you know it wasn't when I was a kid in the in the late 70s and and early 80s you know we we used to have the odd lame cow you know you'd be pushing him in in in the afternoon and there'd always be one or two stragglers but it's it wasn't the problem in the in the old 5,000 6000 litre British freesian it it wasn't the problem that it is in the 810 plus thousand litre Holstein and and that's partly down to production but it's also partly down to exposure to concrete you know concrete is if from a cow perspective concrete is hideous stuff. There is not a single cow in the world who would choose to walk on concrete and of course as our systems have intensified um we've we've exposed them much more for longer periods of time to to concrete concrete is for our benefit it's it's certainly not for theirs oh completely and if concrete's done wrong it can be a horrible job I know myself of somebody that they uh when they put the new yard in they went and you used one of those hexgun patterns which is yep fine but the builders did it much too deep and the problems that causes cows walking on it is just horrendous. Yeah I mean fundamentally the cow the cows fort has never been designed to walk on such a hard surface you know it's it's if we from what we understand and it's actually it's quite interesting because we don't really understand the evolutionary history of cows but they they seem to be that sort of arboreal sort of plain stroke forest dwelling um rumin species and so they've always been on much softer underfoot surfaces. So you know millions of years of evolution have got the foot to the point where it's designed for that sort of walking surface certainly not for something like concrete.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah I did a chaos signals this week actually and they'd got uh when they built the shed six years ago they'd uh inlaid rubber matting all along the feed fence and just since I broke my ankle a year ago I just feel those differences so much more acutely than I ever did in the past. I didn't used to worry about it but slight bit of broken concrete these days I feel it and it was just just so nice underfoot walking on this rubber rather than walking on the concrete as we were walking along the feed fence but I mean I obviously know you for your work as uh hold on let me get this right because I always say it the wrong way around do thin cows go lame or lame cows go thin but you must have done some work before that I'm guessing at Nottingham so what did you what did you start at in terms of your research at Nottingham when you started looking at lameness?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah so I think the what we the and again it was AHDB dairy at the time and and uh I'm really grateful to AHDB because they funded an awful lot of uh of the work that we did um but we started talking to them about lameness being an issue for the industry um and identifying that there really wasn't a lot of evidence base under on underneath what we were doing and and they sort of challenged us and said well prove it so we did some literature reviews for them and just demonstrated how little evidence there was behind uh a lot of what we were doing and and and our thinking and and honestly that was that was the real start for me and then I got on my hobby horse around um the acidosis slaminitis story and and as a cause of of clawhorn disease in in in dairy cattle which um I'm still sure there'll be people who disagree with me but I'm I'm a really strong advocate for saying we need to just drop that as a as a as an underlying theory because it turns out it was effectively you can trace all of that that story back to a single PhD student um uh a guy called Nielsen in the 1960s who who did some really uh initial work initially on horses actually and and and uh laminitis and then we ended up with this weird it's not weird uh a lot of extrapolation um leading to acidosis and laminitis becoming the predominant theory for the development of flawhorn disease in in cattle and it it just took over all the textbooks from the 1960s onwards without really having any good scientific uh research underpinning it and and so that was the starting point for me.

Andrew Jones:

That's interesting because I heard something similar about heifer development uh I was at a conference last year and uh what's his name Alex Back was speaking and he made some comment about you know that everyone says oh you can't push your heifers too much because they get fat they don't produce and he said that's down to one paper with about 10 animals in and that has dominated the headlines for the industry for the last I don't know probably all my life 20 30 years easily and he said it's just rubbish. You've got you need to push them it doesn't and and so you're saying effectively that's the same thing. It was one paper has just dominated um that headline within the industry for a long time.

Jon Huxley:

Yeah and and and don't get me wrong it's there's no malintent here you know there's there's no there's nobody deliberately trying trying to deceive anybody but also we don't get the investment that say human medicine gets you know in human medicine there's so much more money going into research so you end up with hundreds of papers on really small areas of science and we just don't get that level of funding in in in dairy science and and so you know single papers and small studies can can become overrepresented simply because they're the only thing that that is available. And so it's not you know it's it's perfectly reasonable and rational but unfortunately sometimes that it proves not to be correct or it's as you identify it's a small population in a different location different part of the world different animals different genetics and and you just can't extrapolate.

Sarah Bolt:

So going back to to AHDB and the work that you were doing um under their uh um funding and sort of led to the the healthy the healthy feet project with with AHDB what what role did you take in that?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah I so so I was I was one of the people um doing some of the work I mean clearly that's that's been a huge effort from a large range of people over the years uh there was a really good lameness group at Bristol in the UK um back in the day and they they started a lot of this and and you know with all these things it's always just it's a real team effort and so certainly I I put in some of the the original work and was was deeply involved at at one point in my career and and again I'm really proud of where we got to because I really feel like we moved lameness forward as a subject um because it had been underrepresented in in the literature it was underrepresented in management practice on farm but it was causing big problems and so it you know it was great to see uh where we got to um and and where it has got to um since and and talking of Bristol Nick Bell would have been one of the uh the main sort of leading leading at uh at Bristol and and he again has uh gone to the other side of the world as well so we've lost two huge big huge lameness experts to the other side of the world yeah yeah John Webster David Main Becky Way uh and then Nick came in as a PhD student at Bristol and and yeah Nick's moved to Murdoch in in Perth one of the remotest places on the whole planet holy moly Perth is remote uh I don't again I I I think it's interesting when you when you when you live down here I don't think unless you've been you do not realize how big Australia is it it's just vast and then the only place of any consequence in Western Australia is Perth and it it's it's a great place it's a great place to visit but it's a long long way from anywhere. So good good luck to Nick and his family.

Andrew Jones:

As you say you you can't comprehend I mean Australia is as big as the US and I remember some friends coming to see me and they said oh what do we do fly into Brisbane this is when I was in far north Queensland I said well you can if you want but I'm not picking you up and they went what do you mean I said it's a 24 hour drive straight from where I am down to Brisbane to pick you up. You can fly into Cairns and I'll pick you up from there that's only two hours but the flip side I remember a guy in uh friend in uh Queensland was going oh you must know such and such in London why would I know such and such in London said well it's only two hours away from where you live no where it's funny you know I like you're saying it it might be of like Australia might be a vast place but particularly like in the Holstein breeding as I was into you knew people all across the whole country it didn't matter where they were you knew if you didn't know them you knew of them or you you knew someone that did know them or you you know you touch based them at some point and yeah over here you you wouldn't have a clue who was up in Cheshire compared to down here in Dorset or it's just a whole different ballgame you can't you don't comprehend it unless you've been there it's just completely different.

Jon Huxley:

Yeah no so so Perth Perth for me in in Palmerson north in New Zealand well the the the east coast of Australia is is two flights so I've got a flight to Auckland which is an hour and then it's three and a half hours across to the east coast and to get across to Perth it would be it's sort of 10 eleven hours it's it's a it's a very long way and the the biggest problem with Perth is that their time zones don't match with anybody I mean that they they can't talk to the UK they can't talk to the US they can't talk to us because it it's so they they don't align with anybody no that and Tasman WA and Tasman are the only place I never actually went to when I was in Oz but um yeah what I always be told is they're they're a different breed in Western Australia compared to the compared to out on the east but hey that's a whole whole different ballgame they're now a very rich breed mind from what they've dug out what they've dug out of the ground in Western Australia.

Andrew Jones:

I know in my time there the Aussie government was struggling because whereas the East was struggling not quite on recession when the rest of the world sort of was teetering it wasn't but WA was just marching ahead as you say because of all the mining or what they've mined out of there has made them a fantastic amount of money.

Jon Huxley:

I I don't I again I don't think I until you're down here I don't think I certainly had no idea when I was in the UK just how affluent a country Australia has has become over the last 20 years. Their economy has done absolute gangbusters they didn't they didn't go into recession through through 2006 2007 they powered through that they've grown continuously for 20 plus years now it's they they they really are an Afro country now Australia.

Andrew Jones:

Well I say a lot of that is off the back of the mining as you say out of out of Well reminds me I mean when I was there they used to keep saying that New Zealand was going to be the the next state in Australia and they were saying that the whole time I was there but it still hasn't happened.

Jon Huxley:

Well it was always always the original plan apparently you know New Zealand was always was always going to be a state of Australia and then it never happened.

Andrew Jones:

And I I was never aware that that was part of the original plan I just thought it was a little bit of the old niggling between the Aussies and the Kiwis to be honest with you. So going back to your that you mentioned the acidosis and and that's probably what started you down and that's what I knew for was that your work on do thin cows go lame or lame cows go thin was there a sort of a step in between or that's what drove you to then go and do that work with AHDB and and and move move it forward?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah I I I mean to be absolutely clear and and and you know with as with all science it's always building blocks. So there was some work that came out of the the US that started looking at at this interaction between the digital cushion and the and and um the fat in the digital cushion and and how that was linked to body condition score. So it we certainly didn't didn't start that area we just picked up and ran with it because uh the digital cushion story um dates back to to some really fantastic anatomical work that that came out of Germany um probably well 15 20 years ago now um that first described the digital cushion and then the a group in the US had done some really interesting work looking at the relationship between fatness uh or condition score and the thickness of the digital cushion and and and we just picked up and ran with that in in the UK context and and did just built on that and did a lot more of the work looking at um looking at that interaction and looking at how the digital cushion functioned and and what it looked like when we when we imaged it with ct and then mri and and we just added some building blocks to that story and and I'm pretty convinced we're we're right with with that thinking. But like all science you know it's it's it's never complete and the story people keep building on that story as time goes on.

Andrew Jones:

I was going to say I'd sort of mentioned it in the introduction I personally think it's a piece of work that's never referenced enough. I mean I or exposed enough maybe because I know it's certainly something I often come back to when I'm on farm and most people have never even heard of it and I just think it's such a shame I just think that it makes so much sense from I remember you come say I think you gave us the world premiere at the time with the information and that uh talk that we did um and it just makes so much sense to me and it's just so many people out there when you go so is it to thin cows go lame or lame cows go thin and they're like oh it's got to be lame cows go thin and like no no no there's this work and it's done this this this and they're like oh you know and I said you know usually I guess my question is do you have you know if you get a lot of soul ulcers you know that's something I would look from I guess your work look at your nutritional point from it it's not just that but that uh massively comes into it um but you're you're obviously in New Zealand now how do you've said it probably haven't said it in podcast but you've said it to us you're not doing actual hands-on work these days are you you're more a bureaucrat Yeah I'm absolutely absolutely a bureaucrat I'm afraid Andrew that's just how my career my career has gone and I like I like to frame it as as I can have more influence now in in a leadership role and and uh in in uh looking after the education of the next generations than than than I could before so it's it's been really positive. Do you miss that research? And I was my question was going to be how is lameness or how is this perceived in new New Zealand? I mean I've different system um you know more extensive grazing longer walking um but I mean I suppose there's two questions do you miss not doing the research and and how is your work or how is lameness perceived in New Zealand compared to over here?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah I uh do I do I miss it yeah I do um but my great one of my great challenges in as in life has always been I get bored really quickly it's it's it's one of my failings and so uh if I do something for five or six or eight years I I then go oh I've got to do something different uh and so I I I felt I felt like we I I felt like we'd we'd we'd done the lameness research really well and and and there were some great people coming in behind me. James Wilson has uh has has has been on the the show again but you know fantastic James was did his PhD with us um just as I was transitioning to New Zealand and has really picked up the button and and run. So do I miss it? Yeah I do but I I really enjoy what I do now I really do enjoy what I do now it's it's been a huge new challenge and uh I wouldn't have missed it for the world so then that so then the second question was how is lameness New Zealand? Yeah and again you you and and your listener will appreciate just chalk and cheese in terms of in terms of system um the the New Zealand system is small like cow on lower yielding really extensive um yeah they are walking a long way um on the on tracks on laneways to to the parlor I have to it's really difficult I have to keep changing between New Zealand parlance and and UK parlance now uh because the parlor's the parlor's the shed it's it's really weird so you you you bring the cows to the shed you don't bring them to the parlor uh so exactly dairy shed exactly the same or you were talking about earlier I know we're getting distracted but I was having this conversation the other day I when I was working as I had Kiwis Aussie and a Romanian working for me and I said I want an adjustable spanner and they looked at me I said well I want an adjustable and they're like what and I went yes I went and got one and the Aussies went oh you mean a shifter okay whatever and the Kiwis went you want a crescent what and and it's just as you say it's just that the it's the same as I said right at the beginning it's the same but different it's just learning those different nuances of of the phrase of of of when you're talking who you how how you phrase the this a different word for the same thing like you said here it's parlor over there it's shed or dairy or or whatever it happens to be it's all the same thing but yeah.

Andrew Jones:

Jib Jibstopper gibstopper is the really weird one a plaster in New Zealand is a gibstopper right well it's a bit like I was talking to um uh Laura Audrey who's a Kiwi the other day from AHDB and uh we were talking I was with it was on the Cal Signals course actually and we were talking about she goes oh where my flip-flops I'm like what I said you can say the right word I know what you mean when you say jangle she went oh yeah I said oh because guess we can talk about the Aussie version thongs she goes no we're not talking about thongs and it's just it's the same thing but everyone calls them different in the same way when I was over there the uh some neighbours used to laugh because I always used to go and ask them if I could borrow their Hoover and they're like you what a vacuum cleaner but the flip side of there in Australia a power washer was a gurney so you always used to have to ask the gurney in the same way as Hoover it was the original brand so that's what everybody knew things as so so bring a plate is the other thing that possibly confuses Brits in New Zealand.

Jon Huxley:

So when we first got down here we we got invited to an event and they said oh bring a plate and we were going what what do they mean bring a plate? They can't possibly be short of crockery you know what what is this bring a plate and it but again that's that's just bring a plate of food. So it's a cherry meal but it's uh it's all those different my mother did that the first time we were asked in New Zealand she was like what do you mean do we have to physically bring a plate with us and then as you say someone explain what it was so yeah yeah yeah but no sorry we're we're getting distracted now but as you say different system but how is lameness over there compared to over here as exactly as you as you find in the low-yielding extensive systems in in in Europe just it's much less of a problem it's not it it is an issue but it's not the scale of the issue as in big high yielding Holsteins kept on concrete um so Y line disease is is is the predominant lesion um and that's almost certainly just walking a long way on on tracks of often dubious quality uh but it's not to the same extent um as as uh rates in the UK um and you know that's that's something that the the New Zealand industry flies off you know they we have this reputation for for the extensive low-yielding higher welfare type systems you know clearly that's an argument we can get into but you know it's it as far as the consumer is concerned it that perception there. Well exactly there's still that perception here of the old anchor adverts because at the time obviously it was the war debt so we had New Zealand butty no green green grass etc etc but um uh I was gonna say my understanding is there is that New Zealand is starting to feed their cows more in the more I suppose I was gonna say what we would consider traditional way then rather than just grass extensive grass they are now buffering in a way they haven't before yeah no it's absolutely true um but and it but it's it partly it's been down to the to the to the global dairy prices you know with with dairy prices where they've been for the last for the last year or two people have been pushing for that extra bit of yield if they can just buffer feed and and and get a few more litres it's absolutely been worth worth their while but if you speak to the the a lot of the advisors down here they have a really strong view on on whether New Zealand is starting to feed too much and it's it doesn't make financial sense but people start getting in the habit of it um they say absolutely it has a place at the right uh at the right price milk price um but of course you know people start developing habits and they get used to doing things don't they and that's how these things perpetuate and and we're even starting to see um one or two cow houses going in as well are you seeing that in New Zealand as well are you yep not not to what you would call a a a UK uh shed um but um largely just a roof no walls but there is now some sign to get put in in places.

Andrew Jones:

I say I knew there was a few in sort of northern Vicken that have um have put a few in you know a few herds that I know and and when I said to somebody why is it because I know a few people tried it when I was there and as soon as milk price crashed you know it just doesn't work because Australia's always been cheap milk relatively compared to the world because they haven't got the overheads you literally as you say you literally have a shed to milk the cows and a shed to put your tractor in and that's about it is the only sort of infrastructure and laneways sort of thing. But I mean I said to someone why are they doing it he said well because they've realized these North American genetics they've invested in in terms of the Holstein are just not being maximized on grazing they know they need to bring them in and they need to manage them in a housed environment to maximize their potential.

Jon Huxley:

Yeah no it's it's exactly right it it's fascinating to see how these things develop. And of course the other huge change that's that's occurred in New Zealand dairying over the last 20 years is the expansion of dairy farming into the South Island. So um you know historically it was the North Island the better climate where where the vast majority of the dairy farming took place uh but there's just been huge numbers of dairy conversions on the South Island over the last 20 plus years and the climate is then gets much more comparable to to sort of UK climate in parts of the South Island. And so you know you do end up needing to have standoff pads when cows are dry in winter because it just gets a lot wetter and colder down in the South Island. So the infrastructure starts coming into the system. But you you're you're act absolutely right it still astounds me what constitutes a dairy farm in New Zealand uh because it it it can literally be a milking shed and that's it.

Andrew Jones:

Well I think I think someone's even told me of the fact that they milked on a rotary once and it literally had a piece of tin over cups on a piece of tin over cups off and the rest of it was just exposed into the open and that was that was all they had.

Sarah Bolt:

So some of the other challenges that New Zealand dairy farmers are are facing are quite similar to the UK with sort of nutrient leaching and and things like that.

Jon Huxley:

Can you tell us a little bit about what's what the situation is yeah and I I need to be careful because I'm going to start straying outside of my core area of of of expertise but but you're exactly right there's there's a huge conversation going on now about the environmental impact of of dairy farming in New Zealand and um I think what is quite different in New Zealand is that because all this has happened quite recently you know a lot of bluntly a lot of the damage was done in the UK and other parts of of Europe you know a number of generations ago wasn't it and and everything was converted everything was chopped down and the damage is sort of done and I think what has been quite more confronting for a lot of people in New Zealand has been well you know we've seen how it's played out in other parts of the world but we've still chosen to replicate some of the environmental impact um in New Zealand. But of course it it's it's because it makes money and and and we all need industries that keep our countries afloat.

Andrew Jones:

So certainly there there is uh a lot of talk of um uh of impacts on the water table particularly in Canterbury uh in the South Island and and in one or two other locations and and so I think I think it's largely viewed that some of some of so yeah yeah yeah some of the dairy conversions that have happened in some parts of New Zealand probably were the wisest the wisest things uh decisions that were made but that that's no different to me comment I made earlier and and I remember hearing that sort of stuff when I was in Oz you know there was part of where we were in North Queensland only been cleared 10 years ago and I mean it was only dry cow country but you still looked at it and went why the hell did they clear this as you're you know leaning as far back as you can on your bike to balance it or whatever. It was just madness some of the places that they that that were cleared and you think why did they even do it?

Jon Huxley:

But it is what it is. Yeah and and New Zealand it was more it was more that there were dairy conversions from beef and sheep so you know the old uh beef and sheep units were were progressively converted to dairy because it was more profitable than than beef and sheep and and New Zealand's good at it you know we're we're phenomenally good at dairy.

Andrew Jones:

Oh there's some good as much as you know begrudgingly I say it sometimes there's a lot of good stuff come out in New Zealand a lot of good research that then everyone else has to pay for and New Zealand sits back and makes the money from but hey I'm not locking you why not if you can make the most of it I'm glad you've mentioned the word research again Andrew because um we were talking back when we um just a few moments ago about um the lack of research getting back to farm and there was a bit that I was was particularly thinking though that uh John you'd been involved with um of the use of non-steroidals when treating lame cows and I think that that is one bit of research that has done really quite well at getting back to farm here in the UK.

Sarah Bolt:

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah that I mean that was some of the follow-on work we did where the other thing we really realized when you when you look through the research literature was there was very little underpinning research describing the best treatment methods for lame cows. So that's not to say that the things we were doing was wrong, were wrong. We just didn't know they were right and we we hadn't got the evidence the really good quality evidence that that demonstrated that so again that was a piece of of AHDB funded research where we where we just tried to conduct some of the randomized trials um to to investigate the best treatment options for lame cows. Once we'd set off at them you realise why nobody had really done them historically because honestly randomized treatment trials in lameness are really difficult or bore bore you with the details they're just really difficult to do. Yeah and one of the one of the key outcomes was was demonstrating that that non-steroidals really help in as a as a treatment option for for lame cows. And then as soon as you say it it it it seems blindingly obvious as soon as you say it you know it's um lameness is almost certainly an inflammatory disease it's got an inflammatory component and so if you control that inflammation um then it really helps with uh with recovery and and probably also long-term recovery so reducing the amount of damage that gets done in the foot and in addition you also get the pain control which you know we know lameness is painful the reason the cows limp is because it's painful you know it's a straight correlation uh sorry it's a win-win really well saying that that's knocked on now because I know Ginny Sherwin now mentions that when uh she talks about the work for uh heard her talk AHDB oh heifers wasn't it that you should give freshly carved heifers non-steroidals and that it's shown that you have a much greater um return into second lactation and and subsequently onwards if you you give those non-steroidals at carving for a heifer because you're managing the pain of of childbirth I guess. Yeah and you there's probably more to it than that actually andrew there's probably there's there seems to be something going on around uh around parturition in the highly high yielding dairy cow i've i've always been convinced that there's there's some underlying fundamental joining up theory which will describe all of the transition diseases that we see you know it's it's such a dangerous period of time for for the high yielding cow that transition from from dry through to through to uh early lactation and if you well you know all your listeners will know that's where we lose cows it's in that it's in that period immediately after that uh parturition I was gonna say it's usually I mean certainly from a wearing my cow signals hat it's eight it's quoted as 80% of disease starts in that period and so if we get that right it will make such a difference. Yeah and again some really nice work came out of other parts of the world um looking at at uh at inflammation associated with with partition and early adaptation and and therefore probably the underlying reason why and anti-inflammatory is around uh around carving health now you you mentioned that you don't you're not direct anymore but you now influence now you talk about the next generation of vets but do you have any influence over some of the research that's being done at Massy because if you're controlling the purse strings I'm sure you must have some some um uh leak not leaning that's the wrong word must have some influence over what does or doesn't get researched at the university no I don't actually no doesn't what doesn't doesn't doesn't work like that uh no um like like most universities it's where it's it's largely where the money is and of course that then comes down to down to funders. New Zealand's quite it's quite different from the UK in that um there's a real strong dichotomization separation between the crown owned the government owned research organizations and the universities so a lot of New Zealand government funded research takes place in uh in the the the crown owned research organizations agri search would probably be the one that that people might be familiar with although that's just been been rebranded actually um and so we don't get the same volume of research funding into the universities that I was familiar with in the UK because of that sort of separation.

Andrew Jones:

So we we still do a lot of research but certainly not quite to the same extent as as we we used to do in the UK What are numbers looking like for vets are people still interested or is it you know in large animal vet work over in New Zealand or like here it seems to be some people people just drift away from that and it's more and more small animals. I mean I realise the the industry's changed in the last what 25 30 years over here but I mean you know is there still an interest in New Zealand as a whole in that dairy industry because it is such a an economic factor for uh New Zealand?

Jon Huxley:

Yeah no the it's again it's a really key difference between certainly the UK veterinary school outputs and and and what we do are masse so still about 50% of our graduates will go into mixed practice that would involve some farm work which you know there's nowhere in Europe or North America um that would be anywhere near those sorts of levels. So and it's because New Zealand is a is a as a an an island exporting nation you know based predominantly on on ruminant agriculture and increasingly horticulture and and and other things but you know we just nowhere grows grass like New Zealand. We are just phenomenally good at growing grass so so all of our primary production not all of it a lot of our primary production based on ruminants and of course that means there's just millions of them uh millions of sheep millions of dairy millions of beef um a lot of deer and so a lot of the vet work still remains in those in those rural communities servicing those those farms so we haven't seen the the levels of movement towards companion animal veteran work um as uh yet as it as has happened in the UK so John one more question for you while I think about it uh what questions are you still eager to explore as you're not in research but there must be something that's still

Andrew Jones:

Burns in you that goes, Oh, I'd love to know what the answer to that is. I well, we've we've sort of talked about it.

Jon Huxley:

I the thing that I would still love to really understand, and and I know there's a lot of work going on now in the world, but is is transition and and early lactation. That transition and early lactation for high-yielding dairy cow, it's a big, poorly, currently poorly understood area. Um, and I I think there's an awful lot more to understand than you know, the idea that there might be a unifying theory that underpins a lot of the uh diseases of early lactation, you know, in terms of uh mastro metritis, mastitis, ketosis, lameness, you know, all of those, all of those diseases of early lactation um that are so consequential for the cow. Uh, I just can't help but feel there's a unifying theory sitting underneath all of that somewhere.

Andrew Jones:

You're starting to sound like a physicist who wants this uh one one answer to one theory to everything.

Jon Huxley:

I I get to sound like a like like a geeky academic at some point, some parts of this, Andrew.

Sarah Bolt:

Am I allowed to throw one in there at that point then? Because I I've got my latest theory, because I'm one of those that has these these weird theories. My latest theory is that a lot of it is linked to gut health and thinking of sort of the leaky gut syndrome and that kind of thing. Do you think that we might be able to start relating some of these production diseases or transition diseases back to leaky gut and inflammation and stresses?

Jon Huxley:

So it's that it's that sort of idea, Sarah. Yeah, you're exactly right. And and again, I I need to be careful. Like I say, I'm afraid I'm off the tools now. So I I I uh I I bet there's been some really good work going on in this area over the last two or three years that will make its way out to the industry. But it's that sort of unifying theory that then underpins the systemic information that we see in early uh around carving that then kicks on to all these diseases. Yeah, exactly right. My um my great friend and collaborator Martin Green always used to say the one of the best things we could do is to just stop doing new research and just apply what we already know properly on farm, and we'd be far better off than than the than just continuing to research. I we we absolutely have to acknowledge that it's a big gap between research and practical on-farm application, and and lots of people have spent a lot of time trying to work out what the best methods of of translating pure research onto farm are. And I, you know, fundamentally, it's really difficult. It's it's really difficult because um, you know, for well, for a start, we're just very different people, you know. Geeky academic researchers are very different people to applied practical uh farmers trying to make a living on farm. And and that's a big gulf. We've got a bridge and we've got to find a way to do it.

Andrew Jones:

It's not easy. Anyway, I on that, I'm sort of looking at the time now and thinking it's probably time to wrap this up. Is uh, you know, any last words of wisdom, John? I mean, obviously you you've gone to New Zealand, it sounds like you're absolutely loving it. But is there anything else that you'd like to share with people back? Because I know there are people who are interested to know what's happened to you since you disappeared to New Zealand.

Jon Huxley:

Thank you, Andrew. Um, I so I think well, what I want to say, I would say New Zealand is a very long way away, as as as your listener will know, it's it is a long way away. And and that that's the that's one of the big challenges about being on opposite sides of the planet. Uh it's it's easy to think that you can maintain your networks and maintain influence and all those things, but it it's it's really difficult. Um I when I started when I just started supporting the all blacks, uh, I realized that I fully transitioned. And I like when I when I get when I when I finally acknowledged that I was I was a stronger supporter of the all blacks than I was Wales, I I realized that I'd become a Kiwi. Uh took a few years, but it it's because of what you see around you. You know, it's it's you you know, we don't hear the northern the northern hemisphere's news and and sport like you do uh when you when you look at it.

Andrew Jones:

Say John, that's because you're trying to attach yourself to a winner's because let's be honest, Wales have been atrocious recently. Sorry to anybody that whales that's listening to this, but losing was it 73 nil or whatever it was the other day?

Jon Huxley:

But I'm I was watching this looking at a very interesting stat on uh on social media just before I could started speaking to you actually, looking at uh the number of wins in the uh the six nations since 2011. And and actually, Wales still have a good uh a good record on that sort of timescale, but I accept the last few years has been pretty ugly.

Andrew Jones:

But we we've seen it before, was it in the 80s and they came back and did all right? So everybody has their swings and roundabouts, you know. But you're talking about the the fundamentals of this. I mean, just organising this for anybody that hasn't realized there's a 13-hour time difference between us here in the UK and John as we're recording this. So trying to find a time that fits around everybody has been a little bit of a challenge, but we've done it. And I'm really thankful for John for doing that with us. But you know, as you say, it it is definitely, as you say, living halfway around the world, you don't keep in contact with people in the same way that you did. Definitely. I I can completely agree with that one.

Jon Huxley:

And and and you're exactly it's the time difference that that is the killer. It's it's fundamentally quite difficult to speak to people in the UK because it's either 11, 12, or 13 hours different. So it's it's sort of early, early mornings and early evenings. But um, no, we we we love New Zealand. New Zealand has been a really positive move. Uh Massey has been a positive move. New Zealand has been a really positive move for me and the family, and uh our two two kids are now firmly little Kiwis. Our uh our our boy, who was four when we left, has abstract memories of the UK. But uh uh our our daughter, who was two, now merrily butchers vowels like any good Kiwi should. And uh we we had we had had an interesting time a few years ago where we finally had realized that we didn't understand each other anymore because she was butchering her vowels so badly.

Andrew Jones:

So we won't be seeing you move back to the UK anytime soon then, John?

Jon Huxley:

No, I don't I don't think so. We've moved our pensions, which probably the probably uh probably is a a reasonably permanent move. You never know. You never know, you never know why life where life takes you. But I think the other thing that moving to New Zealand really did was made me realize what a really fascinating part of the world this is. The Asia Pacific, uh, and the development of East and Southeast Asia and the and the rise of that region, it's it's fascinating to watch from from this part of the world. And uh uh I really enjoy being in New Zealand, it's a great place to live. Sarah?

Sarah Bolt:

Well, maybe I get to to not have one of my biggest regrets, and maybe one day I might make it to New Zealand. And if you're still at Massey, maybe I can look you up.

Jon Huxley:

You would always be very welcome at Massey. So we are, you know, we're really strong in in agriculture, animal science, veteran science. We're we are the the university in New Zealand that does land-based science, and so you'd fit right in, you'd be perfect.

Andrew Jones:

Well, on that, I guess it's time we wrap this up. So I'd again just like to thank John. It's been fantastic. So we've had a few challenges um to make it happen, but it's made it happen. It's been wonderful catch up because I know I really haven't seen you probably since you did that presentation, but certainly still follow you on LinkedIn and what what you're doing down there. So uh thank you very much for time. It's much appreciated, and it's been great to talk to you. And I suppose it's time to say happy Christmas to all our listeners and a happy new year. Um, and uh I hope you have some time with your friends and family and get to enjoy yourselves. But other than that, happy Christmas either. We'll we'll be on the beach. You enjoy the cold. Do you know what? That was the weirdest thing when I was in Australia was you know, having Christmas in like 30-degree heat, and you're just like it's it's it's just not Christmas. So every has tinsel and Father Christmas in his or Speedos or his you know, swimming trunks or whatever. Uh uh, and it's just like this is weird. This is so it should be cold and miserable and wet, and it's not, and it's just like oh anyway, anyway. So um, on that note, I guess it's a goodbye from me.

Sarah Bolt:

Thank you, John. It's goodbye from me too.

Andrew Jones:

Thank you both. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Tune the Cud Podcast, podcast for the UK dai industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose, and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness, or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of Tune the Cud Limited. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Tune the Cud Limited, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by TuneTheCud Limited, visit www.tuneTheCud.com. Thank you and goodbye.