Clover Can Cut Nitrogen Use, Without Cutting Yield

Clover can feel like a gamble until you understand what it’s really doing in the sward and how small management choices decide the outcome. We’re joined by John Spence, Forage Crops Product Manager at Limagrain, to get clear on the practical differences between red clover and white clover, and how to choose the right option for grazing, silage, or a dual-purpose ley on UK dairy farms.

We talk through the big paybacks farmers actually care about: higher home-grown protein, better digestibility, and nitrogen fixation that can cut fertiliser use when prices spike or supply tightens. John explains why clover often carries summer growth when grasses dip, how deep rooting links to drought tolerance and soil structure, and where clover fits alongside SFI options and multi-species or herbal leys.

Then we get into the detail that makes clover work on farm: white clover leaf sizes and why blends matter, red clover longevity expectations, sowing windows based on soil temperature, seedbed and sowing depth, and the realities of overseeding. We also cover bloat risk sensibly, cutting date decisions for quality versus yield, why clover silage can benefit from an additive, and what to do when NIR forage analysis struggles with clover-heavy or mixed swards.

This was recorded in November 2025, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

If you find this useful, subscribe, share the episode with a fellow grassland nerd, and leave a review so more UK dairy farmers can find it.

For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can email us directly at podcast@chewinthecud.com

Transcript

Face-To-Face Intro And Why Clover

Andrew Jones 0:14

This is the Chewinthe Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to Chewinthe Cud Podcast. My name's Andrew Jones, and well, unusually, Sarah's right in front of me. Hello, Sarah.

Sarah Bolt 0:40

Hello, it's nice to actually be face-to-face.

Andrew Jones 0:42

I know, we haven't done a face-to-face intro for a very long time.

Sarah Bolt 0:46

It seems a long time.

Andrew Jones 0:47

It does, it does. But anyway, as we record this, we've just been recording uh one face-to-face, uh, which we don't. This last year we haven't done so many of, and I do miss them. Definitely.

Sarah Bolt 0:57

I think they're nicer.

Andrew Jones 0:58

They are, but I guess as our our uh guests have um widened, um, we've done more virtually, haven't we? Um but anyway, so uh on to today's podcast. Um it's uh April. Um the soil temperatures should now be warming up. It's a good time to be thinking about clovers. Um originally the idea of this, I think I mentioned it in the podcast, came from um a farmer from Northern Ireland, I think it was, who said, Oh, I'd love you to do one on clovers. So here we are. So we are always open to ideas. If anyone's got any ideas uh for future podcasts, please do let us know. We're more than open to them.

Sarah Bolt 1:34

Definitely. And I think clover's um uh really important, um, particularly as looking at uh the price of nitrogen.

Andrew Jones 1:42

I was I was just thinking that. Given given as we record this, uh I'm told there is no nitrogen currently available. Um yes, it's gonna be an interesting season if this continues as it is.

Sarah Bolt 1:53

Yeah, so obviously clover has got its role in uh in fixing nitrogen, um, obviously got its role in um increasing uh intakes of grass as well.

Andrew Jones 2:03

So definitely definitely really important. Though though though I will say, I'm not sure if I say it in the podcast, if you ever install clovers, ideally you should be using an additive. So I'll I'll put that in now. But otherwise, otherwise SFIs as well.

Sarah Bolt 2:14

SFI, it's still on the SFI. Um I think it's something like a hundred and just over a hundred pounds a hectare payment.

Andrew Jones 2:20

So I can't answer that one.

Sarah Bolt 2:22

I think um, you know, my view is even if there wasn't a payment, I still think it's worth putting in clover. But as there's a payment as well, makes it even more worthwhile.

Sponsor Message And Training Services

Andrew Jones 2:31

Well, I mean, certainly conversations I've had with other people in the past, if you go back to the 70s, I'm assuming this is before uh common agricultural policy and things seem to get a little bit more monoculture. There was a lot more clovers grown than what there are now. So they seem to be coming back in, but it historically they seem to have been a lot more of them. But um, anyway, we're we're uh we're starting to witter a little bit, so why don't we uh all go listen to um this podcast on clovers. This podcast has been brought to you today by ChewintheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, CowSignals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. More details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on nutrition at chewinthecud.com. ChewintheCud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on training at chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt 3:53

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones 3:54

And welcome to the ChewintheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt 3:59

Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.

Andrew Jones 4:04

We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.

Sarah Bolt 4:09

We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself, can it be done differently?

Andrew Jones 4:14

Listen to us speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise.

Sarah Bolt 4:20

Subscribe and listen to episodes for free on your favourite podcast platform.

Andrew Jones 4:25

Sign up to our website www.tunethecud.com for podcast notifications so you never miss an episode.

Sarah Bolt 4:32

And links to our socials, including Instagram, chewinthecudpodcast. All one word and remember, no g.

Andrew Jones 4:39

Or email us direct on podcast at chewinthe cud.com.

Sarah Bolt 4:43

If you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support. And that's it.

Meet John Spence From Limagrain

Andrew Jones 4:48

Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back to ChewintheCud Podcast. Our guest today is John Spence from Limagrain. Hello, John. How are you doing? Uh I'm very well, thanks, Andrew. Yeah, thanks for having me on. So today, um, this podcast all came about because uh uh a listener reached out a little while ago. I've got to be honest, it was a long time ago, so I can't remember who you are or exactly where you are. I think you were Northern Ireland somewhere. Um reached out and said they'd love us to do a talk on uh clovers and uh their value in terms of forage production and what they can add to um to your lay, to your feed, you know, your silage going forward. So um John got volunteered um by someone as the best person to speak to on this. So fingers crossed, hey. Uh but before we do what we uh usually do, uh John, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

John Spence 5:49

Yeah, so um no, thanks for again, thanks for inviting me. So I'm forage crops product manager for Lima Grain. So I mean uh within Lima Grain we pretty much cover all species. My kind of remit within that is all things forages, with the exception of forage mate, where a colleague of mine, Tim Richmond, looks after that. So that means all forage forage grasses and clovers, forage brassicas, so kales, swedes, stubble turnips, uh forage rape, uh, main crop turnips. I also get a bit involved in environmental mixtures, so whether that's pollen and nectar, wild bird seeds, um anything for any of the environmental schemes within the UK. Um so yeah, a very varied bunch of products. Um, but yeah, included within that uh the other clovers, um, reds and whites, and and anything else that we think might be of use or of interest to the UK industry.

Red Vs White Clover Basics

Andrew Jones 6:47

Industry, yeah, that's fantastic. So I guess let's start with the basics. Primarily, probably we're going to talk about reds. I don't know. We'll see where this goes. But let's talk about the basics in terms of the differences. I mean, I know things are changing because you've got large leaf white clovers and all that, but traditionally you would talk about a white clover as being closer to the ground, more for grazing, you'd talk about a red clover as being uh taller uh and more for silage lays. That would be fair enough, wouldn't it?

John Spence 7:18

Yeah, absolutely right. So uh I think within uh I was gonna say within England and within the UK as a whole, and white clover is the um the sort of a primary species, if you like, and I would generally recommend a white clover in any any good grazing lay or any long-term lay. But as you say, it's it's closer to the ground. Um basically a lower growing point is the key aspect with the white clover, so it will stand grazing better. Red clovers are taller, a higher growing point, and so well, taller and so add more from a side perspective, uh, but generally speaking, don't stand grazing as well, or there is a danger of of overgrazing, grazing too low, taking out that growing point and therefore killing the plant. Um and in terms of longevity as well, so the the the red's three years is a typical lifespan. We are talking about moving perhaps three three to four years as the breeding uh improves and uh and the genetics improve. White clovers are perennials, they spread by stolons, and and so um yeah, indefinite in terms of how long they they last if managed in the right way, basically. So, yeah, in it's simple terms, whites for grazing, reds for cutting.

Andrew Jones 8:39

As I say, the lines are are are beginning to get blurred, aren't they? As I know uh that some are breeding uh bear with me if I get this word right, stoloniferous reds. And um, as you say, some reds are now if they're managed correctly. You said three to four, certainly people talk five, four to five years. Uh, and then some people are talking about whites uh for cutting using uh what's it is it the big broad the big broadleaf whites can fit into a uh um a cutting lay as well. So the lines are starting to get blurred a little bit, aren't they?

John Spence 9:13

Yeah, and and it's I think my key role, if you like, in putting together uh grass mixtures and choosing the right varieties is knowing what those uh what what those qualities are and and and matching them as as well as possible to to the needs of the of the grower at the end of the day.

Beyond Red And White Options

Andrew Jones 9:31

So any other clovers we should be thinking about that we don't? I mean, they're the traditional two, but I mean I I can throw one straight in the mix if well I I know it's something else, but it's usually referred to as a Persian. I think some people might even call it pink clover. Um, but are there others that are available that maybe people aren't aware of or aren't used very often? I mean, I'm sure there are, but you know what I mean.

Protein Nitrogen Fixing And Drought

John Spence 9:52

Yeah, and there were there are a range of of of different clovers, whether that's um, as you mentioned, sort of Persian or old psych or uh again I'm getting into other legumes that things like birds foot trefle that have become um more common because of the herbal lay situation that's that's happened over the last last few years. Um I I think they all have their own individual qualities. It's my own personal view, but I I think we have some very good breeding in reds and whites. Um and I think particularly if people are are uh looking to add more protein, looking to add a legume into into a grass lay, it's start with the basics first, the ones that you know we know work that are reliable, and to be honest, it's where a lot of the breeding effort has gone into in the in this country. So reds and whites are still key. Um you mentioned some of the other sort of advances. So uh grazing red clovers are uh sort of here and or certainly on the horizon, and that's effectively growing a or sorry, breeding a red clover which has this lower lower growing point. So you get the benefits in terms of the the taller growth habit, the higher yields, but you're able to graze it uh more safely without the risk of of killing it effectively. So uh they're in their infancy, um, but we have them in trial, we'll monitoring them. Um and if we see a benefit and a place in a mixture, we'll be we'll be using them.

Sarah Bolt 11:23

Um so I guess you know we are seeing more and more clovers or more and more clovers within um lays, and some of this is down to sort of SFIs and and that side of things. And I know certainly at Kings, hey, we've been for years talking about the benefits of clover in Lays, but perhaps is it worth just sort of touching on what the benefits are and perhaps why they were in the SFIs and and that side of things?

John Spence 11:51

Yeah, so the key the key benefits are protein, so a higher protein content, so whether red or white, um I don't like quoting sort of uh you know definite figures for some of these things because it always depends. Uh it depends on the maturity, it depends when it's cut, it depends on the content in a in a lay. But typically um and the the figure that I do often quote is you'll be perhaps three or four percent more protein if you've got a uh either a white or a red clover than you do if you have uh just a straight grass lay. So protein is one, uh the nitrogen fixation is another. So again, there are textbook figures on this, but a white clover around about 30% in the lay, I think is quoted at being about 160 or so uh kilos of nitrogen in in terms of what that is is fixing. Um so basically the the um rise of bacteria in the uh in the sort of the root nodules are fixing uh fixing nitrogen for the the sort of surrounding grasses. So uh yeah, protein. What else haven't I talked about? Protein, nitrogen fixation. Um and uh the key one really I suppose, particularly the white clovers, is is its growth pattern. So with grasses, a typical grass growth curve or or you know uh when it's putting on its yield is obviously the springtime and in the autumn. So you have this dip over the summer, and it's basically when if we do get a decent summer, it's when the when when there's not a lot of moisture about and the grass growth slows, and uh that's uh when the clovers deeper rooted are able to take over. Um so their growth in the spring and the autumn is maybe uh not as good not as as high as the grass, but then when the grass is is is lower, then uh you've got yeah more consistent sort of forage production because the clovers are there. So those are the three three key things for me. Uh what we tend to see in terms of um what we're supplying to our customers is uh it it's the market is swinged or the popularity is is uh swings with fertilizer prices quite a lot as well. So probably I'm trying to think how long ago it was now, three years, four years ago, whenever the Oh it doubled in price, didn't you? Yeah, the nitrogen price went crazy.

Andrew Jones 14:14

They took out the invade um Ukraine, wasn't it? Because I remember had a whoever's worked for had a fertilizer tender at the time, and I had a price from one company and they withdrew it and everyone else thought we're not doing anything, and it just they say it just went mad, didn't it?

John Spence 14:27

Yeah, and so at at that point, all of a sudden, all of those people who had probably sprayed out of their their cl their clover out of their lays, or they didn't want to spend the extra money to put it in in the first place, all of a sudden clovers were were back on the agenda. And and for me that was yeah, it's a a bit of a shame because yeah, there's they're a very valuable part of of any grass mixture, you know, even if they didn't fix any nitrogen and and the protein and uh and digestibility I'd not mentioned either, so the D value of of of both reds and whites is significantly better.

Sarah Bolt 15:03

So we were talking there a little bit about the the sort of drought tolerance because of their deep rooting, and I guess you've got the the benefits of that deep rooting as well in the soil structure and all of those sorts of things that go alongside it.

John Spence 15:15

Yeah, so you mentioned uh the popularity in terms of SFI of of late and their inclusion within herbal lays, and and and that's because of uh the deep rooted nature of of of uh of both of those species. Uh and that gives you um firstly it helps improve the soil structure for a following crop, but it adds resilience into the mixture. So yeah, that drought tolerance means that going back to the growth pattern again that we talked about, particularly over those summer months, if the grass does burn off, you've got you've got the legumes there um still romping away and and and offering a good good forage.

Andrew Jones 15:53

Oh, I I mean I I've definitely seen examples, uh client not a million miles away from me, that in the summer, whenever it was ever dry summer, it was a few years ago, um, was it 22, and uh you had all the lovely red clovers were there growing over the top, and everything else underneath was green, whereas the fields where it didn't have the red clovers were brown, and everything was green, just that little microclimate that as soon as that weather broke, it just burst into life again because the red clovers had just just helped have the tolerance and just kept everything else going. Um your comment there about interesting in terms of you know it's increased again with SFIs recently, is somebody told me um back in the 70s there used to be a lot more clover grown than what there is now. And I suppose probably due to good old common agricultural policy, um a lot of them got uh got killed out and taken and we have we've just you know gone for pure ryegrasses, but I mean clovers add so much to to the mixture, don't they?

John Spence 16:53

Yeah, they do, and and again, a little bit of preparation for for today. Uh I looked at similar similar figures like that, and uh yeah, back in the 70s, uh before my time, um there was uh yeah, there was there was more more clovers and particularly more red clover used. Uh I've been uh scarily I've well I've been within this business for just getting on for 19 years now. And so in my time, there hasn't been too much of a change in in the popularity, albeit uh I've I've tried, and as a business we've tried over the years to you know to get people to switch back, if you like, and and to make sure that they have got clovers within any grass lay that they're buying, or maybe adding it in later. Uh but this situation with with the SFI, um, which has encouraged this, which is is good as far as I'm concerned, um, but it has meant that to a certain degree it's caught them back, you know, the the producers out a little bit. So um and it's maybe one comment for for today that uh because of what has happened with with SFI and and not just within the UK or well, SFI is obviously England only, but uh herbal lays in both Scotland and Wales as well are being um uh sort of subsidised to a degree. Um but across the world there is an increased interest in things like red and white clover. This year in particular, uh so harvest 25 for white clovers has not been good. Um not great either for red. So yeah, going into 2026, um yeah, potentially if you want to make sure that you've uh got got seed supply, it's it's get have a look at it as soon as possible, basically.

Andrew Jones 18:40

Well, I mean you mentioned why in the UK, but why do you think elsewhere? Because they're more interested in improving soil structure, or why do you think there's been a drive that's caught everybody out that or increased fertilizer prices or combination of all of the above?

John Spence 18:55

Or I think a combination of all of the above, and and it's those environmental schemes um that we see here are being um uh the environmental schemes here are are are uh similar to those that are being carried out in other European countries in particular as well. So they have similar aims, and that's reducing inputs, you know um and r reducing fertilizer use, reducing uh bleaching and and uh any sort of nitrate issues like that. Um but also from a pollen and nectar point of view, the clovers are very, very good from a uh from a pollen perspective. Um sorry. Those clovers are very good from a from a nectar perspective, should I say? Um good for the bees. Good for the bees.

White Clover Leaf Size Choices

Andrew Jones 19:46

Yeah, yeah. So we've covered you know various different bits, but like for white clovers now you have different leaf sizes and that. What does that mean? Where do they fit into things? Um, because my understanding, like the the broad leaves, I think I've already said, are more for looking at a maybe a dual-purpose cutting lay. I mean, from your point of view, where do the different leaf sizes what does that mean for people?

Red Clover Traits Longevity And Blends

John Spence 20:09

Yeah, so the within white clovers, the different varieties are well, there are a range of different leaf sizes. So there isn't the a very narrow group of small, medium, and large, it's a continuation, if you like. But from a recommended list perspective, they're they're put into uh classifications of small, medium, and large. Uh typically the small leaf white clovers are lower yielding but more persistent and more tolerant of close grazing. So uh particularly with sheep grazing, you would want to have a mixture with uh with an amount of small leaf uh white clover in there. Uh at the opposite end of the scale, the large leaf clovers uh because of those larger leaves offer more yield, um but they tend to be slightly less persistent than some of the smaller ones. And uh uh when you're putting together a mixture, so we put together a grass mixture, but we also use potentially three or maybe four different clover varieties within a blend as well. And uh so that would be if it was a dairy-focused white clover blend, I would sort of err towards the medium and medium to large uh clovers because they're more upright and they're they're offering more yield. And with dairy cows, the persistent there's no persistency problem you know, using a medium or a large leaf clover. If it's a a sheep based mix, then uh the opposite is true. So you're looking at smaller smaller leaf white clovers, you have that that slight yield penalty, but you've got the persistence that stands the grazing and a general purpose mixture as yeah, the most the most popular grass mixtures in the UK, whether it's from ourselves. Or from anybody is always the long-term, dual-purpose type mix. And for that, we would use a blend of all three. So you're basically covering all bases to give a mix which is sort of flexible in its performance, basically.

Andrew Jones 22:15

Is there anything like that in the reds at all?

John Spence 22:18

Yeah, so with so with reds, it's it's not so much about leaf size, but there are uh different varieties have different sort of traits in terms of growth habits. So we mentioned about the longevity of some of the varieties. Um so you do get red clovers that I mean I'm still wary of of saying that it will be lasting five years, but certainly three to four. I I would always um uh I'm gonna try and get this right the other way around. I would say overpromise and under deliver, but that's absolutely not what I want to say at all. Underpromise, overdeliver. And so so I would always say three years, look at it after three years and and yeah, make a judgment on what the uh the content is then. Um but no, with different varieties, some last longer than others, but the growth pattern through the year is is is slightly different too. So you'll find that uh if you have a variety that has been perhaps bred in in sort of Scandinavian regions where their growing season is shorter, the yields will still be you know pretty good, but it will probably all come in the first cut, maybe with a little bit added in the second cut, third cuts might be quite low. If it's uh yeah, yeah, the opposite side of that is something that might take a little bit longer to get going. And so, yeah, the first cut will be okay, but you might see a bit more yield than other varieties in perhaps second and third. So, again, we we tend to look at the qualities of those different varieties and tend not to just sell one red clover on its own, tend to put it in a blend. And it's with all of these things for me, it's about it's yeah, consistency of performance, not through the years, but it's you know within the year as well, basically, trying to make sure from a size perspective that it's as consistent as possible from uh at each cut.

Sarah Bolt 24:12

So you're talking about red clovers there, and is that um both red clovers as a monoculture or red clovers in with like an Italian blend or or something? What would you uh do you see both?

John Spence 24:24

Um we tend not to differentiate for whether it's a uh you know a straight um uh straight mixture or whether it's sown with grasses. Um I think I mean you might tell me difference differently in your experience, but I I I don't think there is a huge amount of of straight red clovers sown anymore. Um, it tends to be alongside grasses, and and obviously because of that, you know, the nature of them being three or four years, it tends to be more of a hybrid mixture, um, purely on the basis that the hybrids last year, four years, and so you're getting the best sort of balance of in terms of yield and and persistency with those. If you want a really uh sort of high quality uh red clover and grass mixture, you you'd put perennials with it as well. So um you might not quite get the same yields as you would with a hybrid, but the yeah, the the grass quality would be better than it would be with a hybrid. But yeah, there's not so much uh so and straight that I'm aware of in any case. Um but the the principles would be the same, I think. So yeah.

Sarah Bolt 25:30

It was before my time at Kings Hay, so I mean I've been with Kings Hay for eight years, but um certainly before that they did quite a big trial all looking at sort of red clovers, monocultures, and and what have you. But I I have to say that you just don't see Was it for horses historically or something?

Andrew Jones 25:47

I think. I don't quote me on that one. I I don't know. I don't know. But but I'll uh what I will ask though, and that is I suppose for want of a better word, a criticism usually of the red, and I think you might have answered it in your previous answer, is is the fact that it's usually slow to get going the first year, and you only really see for a crop that's as we say, let's take traditionally only there for three years, you only really see the benefit in years two and three. What would your comments on that be?

Sowing Windows And Overseeding Reality

John Spence 26:15

Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a a difficult one. Um yes, you're right. I mean, uh so the first year, I it's perhaps almost treating it in the first year, yeah, just like a grass silage crop, but perhaps leaving leaving it a little bit later, so uh later to cook. And and the reasons for that, well, making an assumption firstly that it's spring sown. So uh we haven't really covered that. So in terms of sort of a sowing date, I mean April time onwards, when there's a a decent sort of uh soar temperature, um, but sown April time, if that clove is allowed to flower in the first year, it's it has a better chance of in particular the root nodules becoming sort of better established and and a better chance of it going on for those those three years or so.

Andrew Jones 27:04

Uh if you're talking spring sown, we should say how late can you go into the autumn for an autumn sown, given that the majority of resowing is done in the autumn.

John Spence 27:15

Yeah, so it it comes down to soil temperature. So I mean ideally August.

Andrew Jones 27:23

You don't really want to go after the end of August, do you? Ideally.

John Spence 27:27

No, I mean I I when you get it, uh again it depends how open the the the the year is, if you like, how mild an autumn you get. So again, it comes down to putting an absolute uh sort of set date on it. But I think uh I think if if you were to say August any later as well, and you there's a very high risk of uh basically the the plant being established enough to survive any winter.

Andrew Jones 27:52

Uh so except when they want six weeks to establish, really.

John Spence 27:56

Is that right? Yeah, that sounds about right, yeah. Yeah, but uh I I think for me, sort of spring zone is is is the best option. So yeah, April, May, into June, possibly even if you're if you're reseeding after first cut, something like that might work quite well in terms of that timing. Um as an aside, similar sort of timing for white clovers too. Both of them prefer slightly warmer, uh warmer soil temperatures. And and yeah, just uh in the autumn it's um you're better off sort of a late summer rather than early autumn, if you like, again, just to ensure that you get a decent sized plank going into the winter.

Andrew Jones 28:37

So by that, I'm guessing what you're advocating almost is just sew your grasses in the autumn and then sew your uh clovers in the spring. Would that be fair comment? And it allows you then a bit of weed control or whatever you you if you need it.

John Spence 28:52

Yeah, do you mean in terms of sort of overseeding the the clovers into it?

Andrew Jones 28:58

So putting your putting your grasses in the in the late summer, early autumn, get that lay established. Uh, and if you need especially if you've got some weed problems, then that allows you to get maybe one or two uh instances of weed control in there, and then maybe after first cut, then you apply your um uh clover seed, whether it's mixed in with some slurry or whether it however that happens to be, to then let that let that establish and and go from there.

John Spence 29:27

It's yeah, certainly possible. I I'm uh I'll be honest, it's yeah. With a white clover, definitely. Um with a red clover, I I would much prefer to put the clover and the grass in together, I think, and have them establishing at the same time. Um just the just the competitive, you know, the competit the competitive nature of of it. I think um with the red clover, it's it's more important to get it right, I feel somehow. But uh and so uh overseeding a red clover into grass, there really is a slight risk that that yeah you don't get as good a take. Uh you put potentially putting on a higher seed rate with the red clover, and so at slightly more, slightly more cost to that, and I'd rather get it get it right from the off, sort of thing. So the the red clover for me in that mixture is the priority. That's where you know you're using that to get the protein. So I would be tempted to to do it right for what the red clover wants, as opposed to trying to put it in with uh you know on top of the grasses. The white clover is a little bit different, um, and also just because I've seen it done very successfully, uh, and exactly as uh as you've said. So that is establishing the grass, making sure it's a nice clean sward, no weed control issues, if there are weeds, getting them controlled, and then overseeding the white clover. Uh and and and that works really well.

Sarah Bolt 31:02

So you've mentioned some things there about um establishment. What else do farmers need to consider when they are establishing um a clover lay over just uh an ordinary grass lay?

John Spence 31:15

I I think uh to answer that question, it's it's very similar to grasses, really. I I think the advice doesn't change too much. And and that's um it's so we've we've talked about about soil temperature and and sowing date. So that that's critical. With any re seed, whether it's grasses or whether it's clovers, always take a soil sample, or at least know that you've had one done relatively recently. Um because I mean it's very, very rare that we that we have establishment complaints. But if we do, the very first thing that I ask is, have you got a soil sample? And the answer is, oh, I think I've done it, and I think I've done it, and then it gets dug out of the cupboard and it was ten years ago. It's like, right, okay.

Andrew Jones 31:57

So what are the ideals in terms of uh pH and I suppose P and K for a clover establishment?

John Spence 32:03

It's uh it's six. It's six. And so it's well it's got to be similar to grass, really, anyway, hasn't it? But yeah, yeah, it it it is. So so it's uh yeah, it's a soil sample, it it's making sure that yeah, any of those deficiencies are kind of sorted before you go and throw some seed at it. Uh uh sowing depth is is is key as well. Um again with grasses, I mean they're they're small seeds, they they like to be close to the surface. Um, and there's an old uh sort of uh adage as well in terms of uh firmness of seed bed of you know wanting to be able to ride your bike over it. Um I hope somebody doesn't claim that that the the hope someone doesn't claim that that was theirs because I that was been told to me in the last 20 years, and and I think it's been around a very long time. But but yeah, so it's um uh yeah, a nice fine seed bed, but but firm as well, uh not sown too deep, so within the yeah, the top sort of five mil or so really, uh and rolled afterwards, possibly even rolled again after that. Um so yeah, uh, but it's the same as for grass. The key difference between establishing a grass lay and establishing a clover is is is the timing. So you can get away with sowing a grass a little bit earlier in the spring and a little bit later in the autumn, just because they'll they all germinate at slightly cooler temperatures.

Andrew Jones 33:30

Red clovers, if we're talking about feeding them, the one I certainly get asked tonight, I know the answer I get given, but people always still worry about traditionally red clovers and bloat. Where do things stand now regarding red clovers and bloat? I mean, I know what I keep being told, but you tell us what's what's your answer to that question.

John Spence 33:51

Uh the answer is not much has changed. And I think from from from from from my from from my side as as someone uh hopefully giving advice to to farmers, uh I would always err on the side of caution. But I think with bloat, um I I don't feel like it's a common problem, and particularly if it is a grass and clover lay. So uh so if it's a grass and red clover, the chances of bloat are you know quite small.

Andrew Jones 34:25

Uh well, I was gonna say that the one I keep getting is our modern varieties, you don't get the problems that you're used to with older varieties.

John Spence 34:34

I don't know of any good reason why that might be. I don't have that is the honest answer there.

Sarah Bolt 34:40

I I wonder I wonder if it's related to actually the amount of clover that we're we're growing. You're saying back in the 70s we saw a lot more clover lays, they potentially had maybe a higher percentage of clover in them as well because farmers were used to growing the clover, and therefore perhaps we saw more bloat then.

John Spence 34:58

I don't know. I think with bloat it is a problem that yeah, people have these memories of yeah, several decades ago, and those those messages have yeah, it is and those messages have followed through. I think you still need to be aware, you still need to be um still we know that it it could potentially be an issue, and so the the things to overcome that are sowing a grass and and clover mixture rather than just straight red on its own. But it's also making sure that effectively you know you're not just letting very hungry animals out onto a very high clover uh forage because that's you know potentially asking for trouble. So but I think with I within a seed mixture, you're probably 30% or so red clover, 70% grass. Uh you might go a bit higher than that. But if you've got yeah, even if it's 50-50, you've got a good content of grass there to if you like dilute the potential issue. Uh so yeah. I I I've not heard of any issues with clovers and bloat in the I don't think in the 20 years that uh that I've been dealing with it.

Sarah Bolt 36:11

So I've come across it a little bit, but it seems to be that it happens on certain farms in certain fields repeatedly, so there might be something that's very different about those particular fields. And my little nugget of of uh wisdom, I think farmers have shared with me, that putting oil in the water trough is uh one of their little bl bloke preventions.

Cutting Stage Quality Vs Yield

Andrew Jones 36:33

It's oil in the water. Uh uh just just some plain vegetable oil in the water usually helps um any problems like that. It I can't remember exactly, but I think it creates that helps that oil slick on top and stops them uh blowing up in the same way. I think that's what it is. Um, but I guess the other one is when to harvest a red clover, because that's definitely changed. I mean, it used to be like, oh, wait till it's um uh uh flowered, but I mean uh more and more I'm you know, latest stuff I've been told, and that's a few years ago now, was you know, you're only gotta wait for them to be bud almost and you should harvest a red clover. I mean, what's your recommendations for for that?

John Spence 37:09

Yeah, I I I think the the the general recommendation is 50% flowering, but I think um again it comes back to the it depends. So with with both grasses and the clovers, uh in terms of their digestibility, their feed quality, and their protein content. So obviously the longer you leave it, the more yield you get. With uh clovers are are less impacted by a change in digestibility as they mature, but there is a slight change, but certainly the protein content is higher if you harvest it sooner. So there's this balance between do I want to maximize yield or do I want maximum quality? And and with with the clovers and grasses, uh that's important. But like I say, you're growing, you're adding the red clover for protein, and you harvest it slightly earlier, you're like to have a higher protein content.

Andrew Jones 38:08

I was gonna say I have seen some uh clover, red clover silages that they've left it too late, and that's the bit the cows don't want to eat, where you can tell it is the flowered red clover, um, and they're the bits the cows aren't eating. It might have got the protein up, but they don't they don't want to eat it, and um uh which was definitely interesting. But I suppose the comment I've just made maybe not relevant, but I guess it's like if you can grow grass, you can grow clover, can't you? Basically, it it's it's very similar.

John Spence 38:36

Yeah, I think so. And and you know, going back to the different species available, um I I'm all up for trying new things. I mean, we yeah, we have our own trial site where we're we're looking at new things all the time. But we know that reds and whites work, uh, and and especially um uh thinking about other other legumes, so things like Sanfoin and Lucerne, um again, both really, really good species in their own right, in the in the right place. But if you make the comparison, for example, with Lucerne, um again, there are there are quite a lot of change in in breeding, and some Lucerne's will stand, if you like, slightly more uh marginal conditions now than they perhaps used to. But if you're in northern England on a wet, horrible site and you want more protein, you're not gonna grow Lucerne, you're gonna go with a red clover. It's it's sticking to what yeah, what works, I think, is a simple thing on that front.

Andrew Jones 39:36

You mentioned Lucerne, a simple on I always remember is Lucerne doesn't like getting its feet wet, does it? So, as you say, if if you've got wet, don't bother with Lucerne, it's not gonna do the job.

John Spence 39:44

It it's it's a brilliant crop in in nice free-draining soils. Um the yeah, uh yeah, good sort of balanced pHs and and and it will do really, really well. Um so but if yeah, if people are sort of experimenting with with different species and uh and they want to try something, have a have a go with red clover first, I think, because yeah, it's it's the more robust of of those protein uh type crops.

Sarah Bolt 40:10

So when it comes to sort of harvesting a high um clover, red clover silage, um I remember hearing about sort of the the leaves shattering and that side of things. So what's the best advice to try and avoid that and avoid those losses?

John Spence 40:28

I think it's it's it's wilting, uh and I remember the percentage off the top of my head, I think around 30%, I think is the is the standard um uh sort of protocol, if you like. Um but yeah, I think uh again, probably not quite the issues that you might get with things like Lucerne again. So you know, so yes.

Making Clover Silage Ferment Properly

Sarah Bolt 40:47

Yeah.

Andrew Jones 40:48

Well, the one thing I'll throw in there is if you are gonna have a high clover size or any clover size, you definitely want to use a silage additive. Um because it's the clovers act as a buffer, don't they? And don't drop the don't allow you to have that rapid uh drop in pH that you want for the fermentation. So if you're um gonna be harvesting clovers, you really, even if it's part of a mix, you really want to make sure you're using an additive at the same time.

John Spence 41:12

Yeah, I think that's right. And I I'm not in the business of selling additives, so uh, but but but but at the same time, I am in in in the business of of supplying the best sort of quality forage mixtures and making sure that people make the most of that. And uh again, another thing that uh another saying that somebody else has said over the years, and so I apologise to the person who said it, but it's sort of uh I don't shortcut the shortcut if you like. Um or it's basically don't take shortcuts with with any of these things. It it's if you're going to do it and you're going to spend the money on uh uh on on you know putting clover in a lay, it's making sure you you get the maximum amount of it, and so a little bit more on an additive to to maintain that quality and to make sure that yeah that fermentation is is good, um, yeah, would be well worth it in my view. And uh another comment on that, I suppose. So, yes, those clovers are high in protein, but they are lower in sugars, and so if you have a higher clover content, you're likely to have a lower sugar content, and those sugars are helping with the fermentation process as well. So potentially, yeah, um yeah, use an additive is not not bad advice.

Andrew Jones 42:26

Well, yeah, I I guess like you you say, John, it is we're not here to sell additive, we're here to give the best advice we can. And and certainly that's the advice I would give anyone is if you've got a clover, use an additive.

John Spence 42:39

No, agreed. Certainly agreed, yeah.

Sarah Bolt 42:45

Um I guess one of the other things that um just thinking about is you know, actually analysing our silages once we've got those and clovers don't or historically haven't analysed as well as they've perhaps fed. Have you got any comment to make on that?

John Spence 43:02

Or do you mean in terms of um uh so the the the actual analysis figure is doesn't seem representative of how the animals are performing? Yes, yeah.

Sarah Bolt 43:14

Yeah I think maybe it's down to the NIR analysis and not being able to handle those high clovers, I don't know.

John Spence 43:22

Possibly, it's quite an interesting point because uh uh particularly again the popularity of of herbal lays or multi-species lays, whatever you would like to call them over the last few years, um knowing the nutritional value of that silage is is in yeah, more difficult than it ever has been. And I know there are projects underway at the minute to uh to attempt to uh build uh NIES calibrations for uh for multi species lays. Uh I I'll be honest, I think it is a very admirable aim, but uh knowing how the problem with the multi species lay.

Andrew Jones 44:00

You say like yourselves, I mean, because we spoke to Richard, didn't we, from Trowl about it, and I know they were talking about it. Is you you see those diagrams and they the most especially yes, the the multi-species lays, they change from week to week, month to month, year to year over the course of what five years that no week is ever the same in terms of what the makeup is in terms of clover or percentage of grass or whatever it happens to be. And uh as you say, it's uh it'll be great if it works, but it it it seems to be a bit of a hard one to what's your calibration to to use because it changes so much.

John Spence 44:36

That's that's exactly the problem. And and so um we have our own internal NIS machines, um and and we have calibrations for grass, we have calibrations for grass and clover, and and they're based on if you like a typical proportion of grass and clover in a mixture. Uh and and they're pretty good. They're pretty good.

Andrew Jones 44:59

But um sorry, we should say NIS, uh near infrared spectroscopy. Yes, yes, just in case anyone's listening.

John Spence 45:08

Yeah, um so the the calibrations are always uh compared against wet chemistry, so the calibrations will only ever be as good as the wet chemistry, if you like. You can't because that's what they're based on, you the NIS will never be better than. But yeah, the proportion of those different species uh, as you say, will vary so much. You and you can't build a calibration, for example, red clover and one for white clover, and then one for chicory and one for plantain, and then kind of put them all together. It's you know, it's all about that that one sample at one time. And yeah, there's so much variation, it's it'd be a very, very difficult thing to do.

Andrew Jones 45:50

To be honest, you my recommendation always is with clients if we've got a heavy um clover lay is do the NIR for the sample, but then go and get a wet chem done on the crude protein. And it can vary as much as I think about a sort of one, two points almost variation between the NIR and the wet chem. But certainly if you've got a high clover silage, then my my uh conversation with the client would be okay, let's do it like normal, but let's then go get a wet chem on the protein. At least once during the season to see where we're at.

John Spence 46:23

No, I think I think that's probably good advice, but and and uh be a little careful because I don't want to put anybody off taking samples and trying to find out what it is that they are feeding, because that's the absolutely critical part.

Andrew Jones 46:36

Yes, definitely, definitely. Definitely, and I and that's why I'd sort of say at least once a season, maybe do a wet just to know where you are in relation. But yeah, exactly. You you you should be regularly sampling your forages to be able to make the most of them and know where where you are. Um, I mean, uh we're talking grasses and clovers, but the best example I always know is a client of mine when I first started doing oh, we don't need to worry about maize, maize is maize. I said, let's just go sample it. So we went and sampled it and it saved him half a kilo of blend a day, uh head per day. And he's like, uh, okay. So he he just doesn't quiver anymore. He's like, yeah, fine, get on with it. Um and you know, it just proves itself. You you need to you need to sample these things to know what's going on.

John Spence 47:18

No, no, definitely. And it's a uh it's something that's uh sometimes a little frustrating than it measuring. And uh I think listening to some of the other podcasts, your other podcasts in the past and people talking about, you know, it's obviously yeah, you can't uh yeah, you can't change what you can't measure and and thing and those sort of comments. And and it's and this is the same. So uh yes, we're silage analysis, but you know, using plate meters and and actually measuring the silage as someone who is you know spends an awful lot of time putting together the best possible mixtures uh for people then not to be able to measure the difference between a a good and a bad is is is rather is very frustrating. Um but uh your comments about maize and and and the potential consistency issues there. Well, that's magnified in in grasses. Uh and maize is a obviously a one-cut uh harvest. Um and so yeah, you what you've got, you have got what you've got to a degree from that one cut, albeit yes, there will be variation within that. You you take grasses and first cut will be different to second cut, which were different for third cut. Every field will potentially have a different mixture in it. Um and and like I say, that's uh part of what I attempt to do sometimes is it's knowing the value of of the varieties that we use, attempting as much as possible to give as consistent a performance as we can through the year. There will still be lots of variation though.

Andrew Jones 48:45

Well, even term of variation, the one I always quote is I remember going to Reading University a number of years ago and they'd done a trial, I think it's Chris Reynolds, um, and they were feeding 14, 16, and 18% crude protein diets. And you could say ironically they're balancing it daily with how much soy they fed to get it, but they they put up on screen that they had a handheld NIR on farm and they had a they put up on screen the variation of day to day of that grass sample. And it wasn't major, but it was still enough that you could it wasn't like a straight line, it would it was up and down daily, as you say, because each field varies, each cut varies, each day varies, um and it is something people need to be aware of, and to make the most of it, you should be sampling regularly.

Costs Fertiliser Strategy And N Credits

John Spence 49:31

Yeah, and and I've been I've been asked at shows and and other events. Uh oh well, so what's the ME of your grass then? And it's like, oh, how long have you got? How long have you got us? And because uh I mean, even um I mean, yes, there are there are quality, there's quality data on the grass recommended lists, and that's a whole other topic that we could probably get into another day, perhaps in terms of talking about recommended lists. And uh first comment is please go and yeah, make sure you're aware that there is a grass recommended list and go and have a look at it and and uh there is a clover recommended list as well, which we should say, shouldn't we? Yeah, there is. So so uh but within that there is some quality data, um, but it's it's it's it's uh dare I say a little on the limited side in terms of you know it's it's great at comparing the you know different varieties, but again, this is my view, uh it's it's not a great reflection of how that variety is performing all the all the way through the year. And and so what uh what I've tried to do in in and within our mixture formulations is is basically we we test the varieties, we look at recommended lists, we get all the information we can and put the mixture together, but then test the mixture as well, basically. Um and and that's so again using the NIRS that we the near infrared spectroscopy that we talked about earlier, it's trying to test the quality at uh at every cut or and or every simulated grazing, basically. And what you find in that is yeah, in the springtime grasses look really good, but come summer, come autumn, when sometimes these things aren't being measured, there are yeah, big differences there, and uh you can sometimes find that a particular variety might do really well in the spring, uh, but it's not necessarily so good in the summer and the autumn. So it's uh it's about balancing it through the year again.

Sarah Bolt 51:25

So a moment ago we spoke about value, and I guess it perhaps it made me think about sort of the the costs of actually you know adding a clover to grass, or actually maybe it's not costs, maybe it's uh the the benefits or the the additional you know um value back. But can we perhaps have a bit of a discussion around that as to what what the additional costs of putting clover versus what we're getting out?

John Spence 51:54

So both reds and whites are uh usually a similar price uh uh uh per kilo of seed. The reds possibly slightly cheaper, but then you're generally using them perhaps three kilos an acre. I'm hopeful, okay, talking in acres rather than hectares, but you yeah, normally around three kilos uh an acre in a mix compared to a one kilo uh of whites. And per kilo, if you like a farm, probably gonna say I'm gonna roughly say about 12 quid an acre, something like I'm sorry, 12 quid an acre, 12 quid a kilo. I wish it was 12 quid an acre, but yeah, um, which is for whites, but yeah, so and then if you're we we mentioned earlier about potentially overseeding, um not very common, not something I'd necessarily advise with the reds, but with the whites, um yeah, a kilo to the acre is what we'd normally put into the mixture. You might want to think about perhaps going slightly higher in an overseeding situation. Um yeah, just to make sure you get a good uh good establishment.

Sarah Bolt 53:02

I know that when we last did our um forage costings report um here at Kings Hay, it was would be back um just on five years ago now. We last did that one. Um new one available to be available soon, I'm hoping. Um I think that with it was costing at about 3.7 pence a litre for grazed grass and reducing that down to about 3.3 so 0.4 pence a litre difference between straight grass and grass with clover as a pence per litre cost.

John Spence 53:33

So I I I mean I yeah, the uh the the trying to calculate the the the the the protein benefit cost or or value if you like is is difficult. Uh I have in the past, and again this is going back to the time when the fertilizer price was very high, is try to look at uh what the the savings are in in terms of fertilizer costs, because we've talked about the benefits of of using clover as being the protein, but also the nitrogen and the digestibility. That nitrogen part, so again, the uh I think it's you've mentioned the RB209, so the fertilizer recommendations, and that's uh that's a sort of uh again, I'm doing this off the top of my head, but I can't remember that's all 160 or 180 kilos of N per hectare that is that that grass is uh is potentially fixing. So what that means is effectively if you don't put any nitrogen on that grass lay, the yield that you get from it is equivalent to you applying 160 kilos of nitrogen. Um and and the I think the the figures in it for red clover are less readily available, but I think if anything, it's it's possibly slightly higher in terms of that nitrogen fixation. So when you have a red clover and grass lay, you you might put perhaps I think the recommendation again, this is off the top of my head, is about 50 kilos of nitrogen at the establishment sort of phase, if you like. After that, it's unlikely to need certainly any more nitrogen. Uh and so with that, yeah, you've got potentially 200 kilos or so worth of nitrogen that you're not adding and and you're getting the yield from.

Andrew Jones 55:21

So I was gonna ask that. What's what's your comments on fertilizer? You've probably answered it, but I mean there's some people argue that you certainly in spring you should put a little tickle on of nitrogen to help boost things along because the clover isn't, I suppose, warmed up and ready to go. Would you go with that?

John Spence 55:37

Or yeah, uh yeah, I I would uh possibly I'm always a little wary. Um, and and that's uh again because I would be trying to protect the clover as much as possible. And and so I I I might even look at having a you know maybe a slight hit in yield if that was going to happen in that sort of scenario, just to again prolong the life of the clover. And so if you add nitrogen to to any clovers, um yeah, it potentially impacts the persistency, basically. The the sort of the the um rhizobian, the uh the kind of the nitrogen fixing factories, if you like, attached to the roots, uh yeah, it sort of turns them off basically if you if you start applying nitrogen. Uh and you don't really want that to happen um from a from a persistency point of view. Um so yeah, but again, uh I I I uh put disclaimer on that that I'm not fax registered, and so uh yeah, other opinions might be uh other opinions might might might be relevant too. But um and the other the other angle to that, I guess, as well, is is what happens in in the following crop. So again, with with um sort of a white clover, uh I yeah, again, I I looked at this a little while ago and I struggled to find, if you like, exact figures of what might happen in the following crop, but there'll certainly be an amount of nitrogen that's been produced, which is then available that you're not having to apply. Uh, I did find some data on red clover, and effectively it was a trial where they had uh sown a crop of red clover on one area, not on the others, but on the non-red clover area, they'd grown some maize at different nitrogen rates, and then compared the yield of the maize on the red clover to that of the different nitrogen rates. The assumption being that where the yields are the same, uh, that's potentially the nitrogen level that's been been given by that red clover, and that was around about the 60 kilos uh of nitrogen in the following crop that was. Um, but again, the it depends question uh that comes down to how long between taking out a red clover and putting in maize or putting in any following crop, because if you take you know if you tear it up in you know September and then leave the field bare and then put something in in April, chances are there's not gonna be a lot there. But if there's a uh yeah uh a shorter period of time from one crop to another, yeah, you've got a good chance of the of making use of that nitrogen you've just produced with the red clover.

Sarah Bolt 58:19

I saw an interesting bit of um research that came out of AFB from their clover check this last this last season. I don't know if you've seen it, John, but it was um looking at um grass lays versus grass and clover lays, and actually the grass I'm just um looking at the work now that um the grass by itself with no nitrogen actually outperformed the grass with 270 kilos of nitrogen. It's an interesting, it's a it's a nice little bit of research. I'll uh I'll share it with you.

John Spence 58:55

Yeah, I I think I mean uh do you think that is because so we uh it was an odd season.

Sarah Bolt 59:01

2025 was an odd odd dry season, I'm sure.

John Spence 59:05

Obviously, typically the the yield increases proportionally, uh, but you get to a point obviously where then it starts to kill the crop effectively. So whether that's been had an impact. And it it perhaps is worth mentioning uh that uh again there's been lots of talk about herbal lays and and lots of talk about uh if you like the the yield of those herbal lays in comparison to grass at, and again, I'm totally picking a number off the top of my head here, but you know, grass with a let's say 150 kilos of nitrogen applied and saying the yield was was was equivalent in any uh and and that's I don't dispute that in any way, shape, or form, but um uh it's it's because of the clovers in there, basically. Uh you know, or it is normally because of the clovers in there, and so any research like that is done that highlights the benefits of those multi-species lays. If you look at the next pie chart or next bar chart which shows grass and clover, you'll see that it's very, very similar. And I think the message there is growing grass on its own is is just fine, but you will have to put some fertilizer on it uh to get the to get the most of it. With with a grass and clover or a multi-species, uh, yeah, that you don't have that issue.

Andrew Jones 1:00:23

One thing I do want to highlight is you mentioned multi-species and that we've sort of talked about before clovers do have a recommended list. Make sure you use that recommended list or look at that recommended list because I know in a previous role I got approached by my boss and said, Oh, this guy's just brought uh a GS4, as it would have been GS4 mix, and uh how does it compare to what we sell? So went back and looked at it. We were, I don't know, fiver, I don't even think it was even that more expensive. And he's like, Well, why is that? and you started going through it and uh comparing this with GS4, so it's before multi-species and SFIs, uh, and what it was is there were clovers in there, but they were older varieties and all these sorts of things. So, again, if you you just want to make sure in general, for any um forage crop, you're on the recommended list to give you the best one because it you know, just because they're available doesn't they've been pushed off the recommended list for a reason, and that's that's made them cheaper, but you're potentially losing out potential production benefits of not having that uh recommended varieties.

John Spence 1:01:33

Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And yeah, for my sins, I sit on the recommended list uh crop committee. Uh so I'm one of the panel of people that is helping make a decision on what goes on or or or doesn't go onto a list. And the most important thing is when a new variety comes along and it's compared with its peers, it has to to get onto that list, it has to be a clear improvement on those varieties around it. So it doesn't just have to be the same, it has to be you know that that's and it's it's judged by uh yeah people within the trade like myself, but there are uh farmer uh participants as well. Um, and and between us, yeah, there are the the key kind of agronomic characteristics of of of of um sort of yields and and ground cover are looked at. And yeah, across that we need to see a clear improvement. And if it's not there, unfortunately it gets thrown out. And there are uh, as you can imagine, a huge amount more don't make it uh than than do. Um and when it's one of your own varieties, it's yeah, incredibly frustrating because you put an awful lot of work into getting it there, but yeah, that's it's sounded like your voice voice of experience there, John. Well important to say as well that if there is something that you have a vested interest in, you're not allowed to vote.

Andrew Jones 1:02:52

So uh but uh yeah, it's it's frustrating and and uh I won't say where it where it's the time and money to get to that point is a lot of money, as I know discussed before in other podcasts.

John Spence 1:03:06

It it it is, it's it's a lot of time and money, and uh and and yeah, talking about the recommended list is good. I I attended a uh I think probably spoke at a farm meeting, which I won't say where it was a few years back now, but uh a lot of the talk then was about the recommended list, and we had some printed copies and uh yeah, uh hands up in the room of of you know who was who has got a copy of the recommended list, and there's no hands, and how many people knew that there was a recommended list for grass? And there's maybe one or two out of you know 30 farmers. And uh that's I don't blame them for that. That's a failing of of you know us in the trade, if you like, of not getting that messaging across. So so yeah, it's well worth well worth bringing up.

Sarah Bolt 1:03:50

I was gonna say this last year they stopped printing um copies as well, though, haven't they, for main distribution. But uh it's yeah, it's one of my Bibles. I do in I do enjoy looking at it.

John Spence 1:04:04

Again, uh for for as someone who, amongst many other sort of roles within within my business, I I write and end up producing quite a lot of the literature that we put out there as well. And there was always a debate over printed copies, but I I think generally speaking, I mean it's nice to have a printed copy on your desk, isn't it? Of of of whatever that bit of literature might be sometimes.

Andrew Jones 1:04:25

Um well, yeah, long but you know, the so-called papeless office, it doesn't happen because you end up printing it out because it's easier to read it than it is to look on a screen and and do it.

Sarah Bolt 1:04:34

So but yes, definitely the next generation might be different.

Andrew Jones 1:04:38

Oh yeah. You're trying to say we're old, Sarah.

Sarah Bolt 1:04:41

I didn't. And maybe in a roundabout way.

Andrew Jones 1:04:45

So uh just looking at the time now, John. Um any last words of wisdom before we finish?

John Spence 1:04:52

Uh I think we've we've we've covered it, covered it quite well. Um I think the main thing is if you're not already familiar with with some of these species, again, we're we're talking white clovers and red clovers, but any other forages really, it's it's just making sure that you're at you're aware of them. Um and and yeah, just doing a little bit of research. I think um it's quite interesting within what I do that uh people don't talk so much about varieties. So they might talk about, you know, I want some red clover, or I want some white clover, or uh or I want some forage rape or some fodder beet, or there's not so much interest in the individual varieties themselves. So I think it's it's firstly yeah, finding about out about the the those the the benefits and uses of those species, but just realizing that there are differences between you know from on a variety level as well, and there's a huge amount of of work, if you like, uh in the background from a breeding perspective, from a research perspective that goes into

Sarah Bolt 1:06:00

uh producing some of these things that are turning up on farm um and it's all done for a reason and yeah this is a yeah a bit of a gripe but it but it costs money at the end of the day and and if something is a little cheaper um there's normally a reason for it uh yeah yeah Sarah I think you know sort of I'm gonna put my Kingshay hat on for a moment because at Kingshay we've championed the use of clovers in in grass for 30 something years and you know it's it's great to be talking about it more it's great to be seeing you know the SFIs and more clover coming into our lays and I just think it's it's a real benefit to farmers to look at what it can bring to their their farms and their businesses. So if you're not already doing it go out and look and see what's what you can do.

Andrew Jones 1:06:57

Well I first of all I'd like to thank John for his time. Otherwise I hope uh to our listener we've answered the questions that you wanted when we done this but if anybody else has got anything they'd particularly like us to cover we're always welcome or you're always welcome to reach out because we're always happy to try and find somebody even if somebody to find somebody to find somebody to try and talk about a particular topic. But otherwise no I mean being fantastic talking about I mean yeah we've gone back to some basics um talking difference between reds and whites um but just what these will bring in terms of drought tolerance soil structure improvement improved crude protein what they bring looked at the sowing of them looked at some of the management for them um and heart and more importantly harvesting them and using them um so I think it's been a great conversation so um thank you very much John um but otherwise I guess it's uh a goodbye from me it's goodbye from me and a goodbye from me and thank you very much for having me again thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Chewinthe Cud Podcast podcast for the UK dairy industry brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world now for the really boring bit I'm afraid the legal disclaimer the information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Tune the Cud Ltd and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Limited visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye