Great Silage Starts With The Right Clamp Layout

Silage isn’t just a crop, it’s a high value asset, and the clamp you store it in can quietly decide how much of it you actually get to feed. We sit down with Jeremy Perkins from SiloStop Agri to talk through what good silage pit design looks like in 2026, from the first site visit to the details that protect forage quality for months. If you’re expanding, switching systems, or simply running out of space, this conversation helps you think clearly about layout, access for modern machinery, and how to future proof capacity without creating an unmanageable feed face.

We get practical about the rules as well. We break down SAFO regulations in England and what inspectors are looking for around silage effluent and leachate containment, then compare that with Welsh COPR requirements, including why tarmac floors can be preferred and how features like inspection chambers support compliance. Along the way we discuss earth-bank options, vertical wall systems, drainage falls, and why planning permission and build timelines matter more than most of us want to admit when second cut is looming.

We also zoom into the small stuff that makes a big difference: oxygen barrier film, sidewall film, safer clamp handrails, and cleaner weighting options that replace the misery of tyres. The takeaway is simple: invest once, do it properly, and treat homegrown forage like the foundation of margin and efficiency it really is. 

This was recorded in March 2026, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

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Transcript

Early Silage Season Reality Check

Andrew Jones 0:14

This is the Chewin the Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to Chewinthe Cud Podcast. My name's Andrew Jones, and with me as always is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt 0:40

I'm very well, Andrew. How are you keeping?

Andrew Jones 0:42

Yeah, I'm not too bad apart from I've had a stinking cold all Easter, but hey ho. Um I hope everyone's had a good Easter. Now it's the middle of April, round now. We usually try and do one on the coming silage season to get people prepared for the silage season, but it looks like we're uh a bit behind this year, Sarah.

Sarah Bolt 0:57

I was gonna say the weather's been very kind over the Easter break. Whilst it might have been a bit uh a bit cold, the sun has certainly been shining and the rain has held off.

Andrew Jones 1:06

Yeah, definitely. I think there was a few people who went sort of end of March before um was it Storm Dave came in. Uh and then certainly again now we've had some sun, was it 25 today? There's people out there making silage, which um this early in April you don't expect. So I don't know if people have tested their grasses, but certainly those early ones when it was cold pre-Easter, maybe a bit short of sugars, so maybe people um should be using additives um to get them going. But uh I guess if the grass is there, there's plenty of people telling me they've got plenty of grass, why not make the most of it?

Sarah Bolt 1:39

I was gonna say it might just help get the rotation where you need it for the grazing platform.

Andrew Jones 1:43

Well, there's that, or if they cut now, the good chance they'll have a good uh quality cut sort of mid-late May, which uh I mean, this is probably not gonna have quite the quality. If it's um been growing all winter, we've not had a lot of frost, there's gonna be plenty of fibre in it, plenty of lignin in it. So um, yeah, that might might be a good thing. Reset that platform and away they go. But anyway, um we are here, we are doing a silage one. Uh so today we are mainly talking about silage pits, their construction, the regulations, and a little bit of safety and a few other bits and pieces.

Sarah Bolt 2:17

So just getting ready for the silage season.

Sponsor Message And How To Follow

Andrew Jones 2:19

Exactly, exactly. Let's go take a listen. This podcast has been brought to you today by ChewintheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, cow signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. For more details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on nutrition at chewinthe cud.com. ChewintheCud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on training at chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt 3:17

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones 3:19

And welcome to the ChewintheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt 3:23

Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.

Andrew Jones 3:29

We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.

Sarah Bolt 3:34

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Meet Jeremy And His Clamp Systems

Andrew Jones 4:12

Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back to ChewintheCud Podcast. Our guest today is Jeremy Perkins, who is the national sales representative from uh well looking at for the Clamp division of SiloStop Agri. Hello, Jeremy.

Jeremy Perkins 4:36

Hello. How are you doing? Very good. Nice journey down from my other appointments, down in uh plenty of sunshine, lots of grass growing finally.

Andrew Jones 4:45

Yeah, it is, it is the sun shining. So it's uh April when this goes out. We usually try and put out a podcast somehow silage related. We've done one on oxygen uh barrier silage sheets in the past, silage additive, and last year we had Eric Dorr talking about making a plan and making the best of what you've got. Um but this came about because a client of mine is currently looking at potentially putting in some new silage pits, and I thought, haha, I know a man who might be able to tell us a little bit more about it. So hence why Jeremy is here. Um but before uh we get started with that, like usual, Jeremy, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

Jeremy Perkins 5:19

Okay, well, I'm uh first generation farmer, I suppose, in my own right. I've got um 40 suckler cows, uh and other Galloway cattle on conservation grazing schemes, and I work for Silostop Agri, uh selling uh covering the whole of the UK and Ireland on the concrete panels side of things. Well so most people probably know silostop more for their orange silage sheet, don't they? Absolutely. We we were ARC agriculture. Um, as in most things in farming, there's nothing really new under the sun. Um the panels system that we have was developed in the 1950s in Germany called the Trausen seiner system. Big flat fields where they dig a pit into the ground and then they put six foot-high sloping walls to gain compression to get rid of the oxygen. So um we've developed and modelled that um and now have a three or a four-meter high system, mostly for dairy farmers and biogas uh silage operations.

Andrew Jones 6:21

Yeah, so that's so that's what we're here to do today is mainly talk about that. But I guess that means we need to talk about um some of the different regulations and different bits and pieces. But uh where would you like to start? I mean, I suppose the first thing I did when that client said to me and I said, Ah, I know somebody was just ring you up and you came out and had a look at the site. So where if someone's interested or wants to do a size bit, what do they need to be taking into account before they uh make that decision? Or where not I suppose the decision's made on cattle number and stuff, but where it's gonna be and all of those sorts of things.

Jeremy Perkins 6:52

I'd like to think that we are specialists rather than experts. Um, I think the ethos of our company is either around sustainability or um getting the most from your forage. We we're keen exponents of good forage making because that's the cheapest feed that you're ever gonna produce.

Andrew Jones 7:10

Well, just just for my day job, I mean, let's be honest, makes it a lot more difficult if you haven't got good forage. Good forage is the basis for everything.

Sarah Bolt 7:18

Same with King's Hay release, sort of margin over margin over purchase feeds, and you know, the the key to that is uh forages, uh whether that's grazed or conserved. So yeah.

Jeremy Perkins 7:28

Right. And I think um very often people are either worried because they um see uh increased improvement notices being served on substandard, or they're expanding and they want to have some advice. So we're very much involved in a consultative approach, looking at the whole farm first. Um I think we're almost in the West Country here. The late David.

Andrew Jones 7:54

No, we are in the West Country.

Jeremy Perkins 7:56

Yeah, I well, it's the bit coming over on the A303. I actually went further. I went down to Zeals and back across, so I get come off the Salisbury Plain and I get the view over the whole of the Blackmoor Vale, so it's wonderful. Um, but he had a famous saying that an expert was on in Cornwall was only somebody that came from more than 20 miles away. Um, and so I don't profess to be an expert, but we specialize in looking at um an enterprise's silage requirements. We look at their future expansion for growth. Um, we have various other systems which can be capitalized, um, uh much more bankable. So people aren't, for example, on 10-year FPTs or where they're gonna remodel the farm in the future. We have um vertical wall systems that can be lifted and placed with a Thunderbird one machine that we have, which works very well. Um, but coming back to your first question, what we look at is solid quality and it's a considerable investment. So we want somebody to get things right, suitable for their farm. Um we take into account with a specialist spreadsheet, uh oxygenization uh losses uh keeping the feedfront uh fresh. We look at um capacities future proofing uh for different yields, particularly with grass. Um, I mean, look what happened last year, um, but other years, bumpy years, we try and make sure we do a consultative advisory approach. If we can, we have an open-ended clamp uh so that you can blend, you can come from both ends, um, and you can get that compaction with your wheelings, not only down the sides, but on both ends as well.

Andrew Jones 9:40

Well, say we're probably jumping forward a little bit, but you mentioned it. What's your preference? Single-end or open-end?

Jeremy Perkins 9:46

I think it depends on the farm location. Both have their pluses and minuses. If given a fair wind and a completely blank sheet, which let's face it, most farms are already operating, so they don't have a comp they they they do have some slight constraints, but it would be an open-ended clamp. Um there's a mi there's a trade-off between those that think I'm trying to sell too much concrete and having narrower um clamps so that you stop the oxygen oxygenation losses. I mean, as a for instance, Dieter, um our Belgian agent on the oxygen barrier films, is a dairy farmer in his own right. He has clamps that are only two metres high and six and a half meters wide. Whole series on.

Sizing Clamps And Managing Feed Face

Andrew Jones 10:32

Well, again, it makes the next question, which again we're probably getting not quite in the linear path I had envisaged, but how many days uh in front of you do you think you should have on a face? Two days, three days, four days?

Jeremy Perkins 10:45

We would we would like to see the face going back at about a metre a week so that you you you're keeping that fresh. That that's in the back of our capacity calculations with surcharges, heights, etc. That's what we're working on.

Sarah Bolt 11:01

And is that the same for maize as grass or more or less.

Jeremy Perkins 11:05

I mean the cubic capacity calculations are different, but the actual feed phrase movement is about the same, yeah.

Andrew Jones 11:11

It'd be the same l likewise with whole crop as well, wouldn't it, ultimately? Yeah. But but yeah, so say let's let's go back. So as that client did, they were interested, they had an idea of a site. I met you to make the introduction just uh so you knew who they were. We went on the site. Really, what do you need to know if somebody's looking for this sort of thing?

Jeremy Perkins 11:35

The first thing is uh what their future plans are, so whether I need to build in an expansion. Um a lot of uh farms now are more or less fixed in modules because they a lot of farms are going over to um uh uh robotic milking, so they they're they're thinking in multiples of 55 to 60, um, and that makes a difference. The geography, the ease of handling um typically at some point you've got to have a leech ape tank, and that would normally be with let's say with a two percent fall, but then going into some form of dilution. There's a difference between what we're talking about for dairy farmers, where you can't just put leech ache back onto grass because it's gonna kill it, you do have to dilute it. So there's a capacity calculation to meet the Sappho rigs, we'll come on to those in a minute, um, and have a dilution, whereas most AD operators want that back because it's rocket fuel that's gonna go back into a digester, so there's a difference there. Um ease of working, I think that's one of the key things. Machines are getting bigger for contractors actually clamping, so good access, um, and then uh something that can be kept clean uh um and used efficiently during feeding out with shear grab or whatever else.

Andrew Jones 13:01

Well, you mentioned there about size getting bigger. I was thinking about this morning. I was walking the dog. I remember, I mean, this is only vaguely our first silage pit being built. I'm gonna say it's sort of 77-ish, 78 maybe, but then it was 165 on the buck rate, wheels up in the air, it was four-ton trailers. Yeah, I mean, what is it now? It it's usually huge loading shovels or telescopic at least. Um, and what are the trailers now? 16? Are they possibly even 18 tons? Some of them typical one, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's so different in terms of the machinery operations.

Jeremy Perkins 13:38

To be able to turn them around, you need to um have access for swinging around for a TMR mixer or whatever you're gonna do. That's important. Um, I mean, our wall ratings typically. I used to think a big machine was a 10-ton axle machine, in other words, 20 tonnes. Um, our vertical walls now have a standard um loading um, so for side impact from the machines that are compacting of 15 ton axles. And there is a couple of very brave people in Southern Ireland that have now construction mining based type loading shovels where they need a 20-ton. They must be huge rating. So that's 40 tons, that is massive.

Andrew Jones 14:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's just just shows. I mean, uh well, dare I say it in the last 50 years almost how much things have changed and developed from from silage being very it wasn't the norm back then, really, was it in the 70s? That was sort of when things started to change, um, to where it is now and just how big these machines are in terms of tractors and everything. That you say the fact that the concrete, I suppose, has got to be able to carry a lot more concrete, um, weight and everything on it.

Jeremy Perkins 14:50

I think the other thing is that um like I I'm a farmer as well, so a pound saved is a pound earned, and you always think about costs of things, whereas um silage has a value, and I think it's very it's very surprising how undervalued that is as a resource. It's sometimes a problem for can we fit it into a thing or how are we going to feed it out? But it has a value, and and many farms actually underestimate it could be £70 a ton in terms of valuation.

Andrew Jones 15:21

Yes, sometimes more. Or sometimes, I suppose the example I've used on here before it was maize rather than grass. Was I remember a client said to me, Oh, maize is maize. Let me go and sample it and go and find out for you. What's your chop length? Yeah, etc. Yeah. It was just simply I went and uh silaged his sampled his maize silage for him, and then over the course of winter I saved half a kilo a cow a day, yeah, based on the fact we had an accurate um maze analysis, which then leads on to being more sustainable and all these things, but simply the cost saving for him over 150 cows, half a kilo a cow a day, 75 kilos, you know, it starts to starts to add up.

SAFO Rules And Wales COPR Differences

Jeremy Perkins 15:59

Yeah, so I I think um your question where we start is trying to optimise, make good silage. The farmer was on this morning that they have uh high-yielding cows and they want very, very high dry matter and they work really hard at high dry matter silage to achieve their their aims. Um sadly, now um because of particularly the the milk price, sometimes the catalyst for a phone call for a new clamp is to do with SAFO regulations, which so the environmental agency have been onto them basically. In England, the environment agency, um so the the the regulations a 2010 regulation, SAFO, which stands for Water's Resources, Control of Pollution, Silage, Slurry, and Ag Fuel Oil Regulations 2010. The Natural Resources Wales That's a mouthful just in itself. Yeah, Natural Resources Wales are the equivalent in a devolved administration in Wales. They've got their 2021 regulations, which is called Co APRA, which is the Water Resources Control of Ag Pollution Regulations Wales 2021.

Sarah Bolt 17:10

And how does that compare to SAPE?

Jeremy Perkins 17:12

Well, we spent a lot of time, it's a little bit, it would be disingenuous to say it was um an adversarial conversation, but it was an extended conversation. If you picture the analogy that if you go and have a house extension, you call an architect and you call um the planning officer. The planning officer won't tell you what he wants, but he or she wants, but they'll tell you what they don't like or won't work with regulation. So what we did was we spent about two years with the environment agency at head office level, and we developed a 21-page billbook which complied with what they wished to see. Um we used that for this is in Wales, wasn't it? No, this is this is the Environment Agency in England, Andrew. Um and then on the basis of that, we spoke with Natural Resources Wales. Their mandate is slightly broader because, unlike England, where there have been some slurry grants available, slurry improvement grants, there's nothing for silage clamps. There's a little bit from some of the water authorities for nitro stuff with covering roof coverings, but nothing for the actual silage clamps. In Wales, it's there is a considerable grant aiding. So we took what they wished out with our scope and made a bigger build book to be grant compliant for things that were actually some of it was nothing to do with silence tobagri product, but it was uh an all-encompassing book for grant aid, and you know that was approved, and we've now got our first projects going in under that new regime in Wales. It's going well. Good, good.

Andrew Jones 18:57

But I'll soon say it's the it's the work behind the scenes that people don't see, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So so you you've made the site visit. You've sort of where does it go from there? I suppose it's the different systems, like you've mentioned the fact that you've got the panels to go on the earth bank or you've got the um vertical wall systems. I guess it's depend it it's all very much where the client wants to go with it, as you say, future-proofing it, all of these sorts of stuff.

Jeremy Perkins 19:25

So what we what we do is we do a uh the first test is a capacity calculation which takes cubic volumes against tonnages. We do an estimate for what the farm will actually either anticipate or what will require. Um we uh build a notional model for the silage clamps, we do a capacity calculation, we do a quote that the the money numbers obviously, um, and we put in um a submission with our uh build book, the relevant build book for either Scotland, England or Wales. Um and then we have often the next stage is to have a dialogue either with farm staff or civils contract that's going to be doing the works to either remodel or build from scratch. Okay, yeah, so it depends who whether doing it internally or whatever, in terms of what you actually want. I mean the vertical walls are a different thing, they're produced in the Netherlands, and we actually get more involved in the construction. So we have a what I call Thunderbird one, but it's a clamp that lifts these panels. They have to be laid down for the four-meter running height regulations in in the Netherlands. So they come on a truck, they can be way up to 12 tons a piece. We have a clamp that when you look at it, it looks like a an orange attachment on the end of a machine. Doesn't look at it, but it's 54,000 euro investment from our point of view, and it basically grips these with a neoprene pad on either side at 300 bar pressure, lifts them off a truck, rotates them vertically, and puts them in place. Um we typically uh we we've done a couple of projects which are 250-280 panels on any one site, and we we place those on a pre-prepared site 20 25 a day based on what the the farm design uh actually requires. And then, but in terms of the Earth Bank, what's what's to go for them? The Earth Bank is um it it's it's a bit the same as um uh house building uh uh uh uh in the old days with vernacular, it depends on what material you have to hand. So there's a lot of well shale, there's a lot of anything with a clay fraction is better. Um, either it's an existing chalk or earth bank, which is now deemed to need lining because of the Sappho regulations, or creating an earth bank allows. Make to settle, making a wooden frame template and grading back with a 360 to a 23 degree angle, and that's the bearing point for these walls. Um then we have a system that the the key part of our sloping wall system is the seating channel, it's two channels as a ring beam that goes around the perimeter. Um that is pre-leveled to a 2% fall typically on the silage clamp. The outer um channel supports the panel leaning over and it's propped temporarily. The back channel is there to catch any leaching. The earth bank has an impervious membrane over it, and there's about 250 mil depth of P gravel or 40 mil gravel that's put in behind. That's the bearing surface. Um and I mean the the key point is it should be maintenance-free and uh able to function for 30 years without uh much apart from some surface treatments or uh whatever on the outside.

Andrew Jones 23:08

So, really, what are the Sappho regulations as you've mentioned them? What do they require from farmers?

Jeremy Perkins 23:14

Um containment of leach ape. I think that's the the that's the most simple thing that that Sappho rigs. So um they they don't they don't want to see leach ape being able to get through soil and out into the environment or particularly into water courses, Andrew.

Andrew Jones 23:32

So um so so are Earth Bank silage pits done for now, or have they uh they've got a finite life or they are gone?

Jeremy Perkins 23:41

There are other systems that that people get very worried. I mean, that I've seen retrospective channels put around the outside of clams um and other forms of covering. Um but the premise is that even if you've got a chalk face where you could argue that that leeche isn't gonna go into that chalk, it's got to have an impermeable barrier of some sort. So our system is is an example of how you can overcome that. The the the most important thing is that the there must be some form of containment around the outside. That's what the Sappho regulations are asking for.

Andrew Jones 24:21

But I mean that's been the case for a long time though, hasn't it? I mean, I mean I certainly remember a silage pit oh geez, mid-80s maybe, and that as you say, that had the channel round the outside to to catch all the uh effluent and um uh be put in a tank, etc. etc. So in that regard, it's not anything particularly new.

Jeremy Perkins 24:41

Perhaps now that it's now becoming more something that is being looked at. You have um incentivised agricultural inspectors within the environment agency, you have people assessing water quality. I mean, you can argue plenty of other things go in a river, but um it's quite a nasty thing in the river, though. The river catchment area and catchment sensitive area um farms are be gonna be the ones that are the principal focus to start with, yeah.

Sarah Bolt 25:11

I mean the the EA's got a lot more inspectors than it had sort of two years ago now, hasn't it? So a lot more people are getting those.

Jeremy Perkins 25:19

I think it's a bit like D VSA, they're also self-funding, so yeah, that it's you can't do things after four o'clock anymore, sort of thing, yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Bolt 25:28

But I guess it's it's all good because that uh that effluent, you know, it has a high oxygen loading into rivers and can cause, you know, devastation if it's if too much of it gets in in the wrong place, isn't it? Yeah.

Jeremy Perkins 25:41

I mean I I think that the there's a difference, and what I try to do um is to be seen not as an ambulance chaser chasing uh regulators, but where people are making the right decisions uh for the right business reasons, then let's get it right for for what works.

Andrew Jones 25:58

Yeah. Well you say ultimately it's for the benefit of everybody because the last thing you want is a new story of all the fish, all the fish have died because someone's let some effluent go in there uh in there. So you know it's it's it's all for the right reasons, it's just making sure it it happens. Um so what a you briefly mentioned Scotland, but I mean in terms of the Welsh, what's the what's the difference between the English regulations and the Welsh regulations?

Jeremy Perkins 26:27

Um mandating, for example, uh for grants only tarmac flooring for the surface of the clamps is acceptable. So a limestone-free tarmac. I quite like that not concrete, no, okay. Um and I quite like that that in that you can shape it, so you can shape it to bring leeche away from the walls towards the centre and then forwards or either way um towards leech.

Andrew Jones 26:54

So what's the reason for that? Because it doesn't um what's the word uh break down in the same way?

Jeremy Perkins 27:02

Yes, the the tarmac itself doesn't break down. I mean, I've been on projects where you've got 30-year-old tarmac and it's still as good as new. It doesn't pit like like and degrade like concrete does.

Andrew Jones 27:15

How does that affect it in a cost factor point of view?

Jeremy Perkins 27:19

It more or less the same price, it depends on the final specification, but it's it's broadly in line. And the other thing is if you ever did get a if you see uh older forms or weaker uh concrete, wherever the leach is emanating from isn't where it's getting in. Um whereas with tarmac, if you on the hottest day of the year you put your TMR wagon's foot goes into the tarmac, you can repair that with a watering can of hot tar and some tar and roll it. So you can manage self-manage things yourself better.

Sarah Bolt 27:53

So maintenance is far easier, yeah.

Jeremy Perkins 27:57

And I I mean I there's a whole long list, but um a s a few small for instances, uh, the difference you asked between COPA and the Welsh regulations and Sappho. The they they ask for an inspection chamber that goes between the on the drainage network that goes between the clamp and the leech aid tank, so they can see if there's any soil getting through into the system, as of for instance.

Andrew Jones 28:24

Okay, so yeah, they're monitor they're monitoring its effectiveness more closely.

Jeremy Perkins 28:29

Yeah.

Andrew Jones 28:30

So would is your preference tarmac then by the sounds of it?

Jeremy Perkins 28:34

Yeah, I think so. Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Jones 28:37

Okay. I I hadn't realized.

Sarah Bolt 28:39

I've never seen uh never seen a tarmac uh silage pit. So maybe we need to go to Wales, Andre.

Jeremy Perkins 28:46

There's plenty in England as well. You'd be more than welcome, Sarah.

Sarah Bolt 28:48

Come along anytime. Yeah.

Andrew Jones 28:50

So I don't think I have either. I suppose, you know, let's be honest, you the the image in my head still of a silage pit is concrete floor, RSJs, um uh railway sleepers, uh, and that's not what they are anymore, is it? No. Weeping more railway sleepers are out now, definitely.

Jeremy Perkins 29:08

No, I know, have been for a long time, but it I suppose there's just plenty of them still around, though, aren't there? The other thing I think is we we try and make a a one-stop shop for those that want it so that in terms of good signage making, being safe and making it sustainable, so oxygen barrier films to prevent oxidation losses. Um we have uh secure covers, so UV stabilizing covering materials as well. Um, we now, our sister company we now own, Intershape Dairy Comp Company, and we bring in bunker mats, which are 22 kilos, so manual meet the manual handling rigs, but do a darn good job. I mean, a lot of farms have gone from whole tires, which I can remember in my pre-college days, was a filthy job when everybody ran for the hills whenever they were asked to come in uh slop smelly water all over themselves.

Sarah Bolt 30:00

I was gonna say, how many times did we fill our wellies with sloppy, yucky water?

Jeremy Perkins 30:05

And it's not only that, if you if you want to peel back for the next cut, it's it's just a filthy, horrible job. Gravel bags we still sell gravel bags, but a lot of people have gone to either tire walls to keep the the uh metal out of uh danger for for cow's ingestion. Um but these bunker mats they don't blow away, they can be evenly spaced, they're easy to put up with a teleporter with uh on a pallet to near where you're working, lift out, job done.

Sarah Bolt 30:38

And I guess storage as well, far easier to store as you're going back.

Jeremy Perkins 30:42

They are, yeah. They just look like a stack of gym mats when they're not on a clamp. Absolutely.

Andrew Jones 30:46

Thing here's storage makes me ask a question. So if you're going for one with earth banks, is there an ideal width between clamps to put them?

Jeremy Perkins 30:55

So that for argument's sake, you can store your mats as you strip take them off, or uh it's one of the advantages that so the sloping wall system is typically at the base between the panels, four metres, the earth bank being about three point two at the base between clamps, and at the top one point two. So it provides a ready area to safely walk along, bring and roll back plastic, or to store those materials, yeah. And you can make them obviously wider if you want to, I'm guessing. And the outside buns, we the minimum we would expect to see are about four and a half metres. Typically, most people make them about seven metres, um, because it's an easy angle to approach for walking up and down, maintaining, mowing, grazing sheep on whatever you want to do. Um and it it also be is a green-covered berm. So, in terms of planning and appeal, when you're looking at it from the side, it looks like a green hill.

Sarah Bolt 31:54

I was going to ask about planning. Do you, as a company, help farmers with that side of it, or is that we work with planning consultants.

Jeremy Perkins 32:02

I mean, uh the the lot of people that Andrew would know who are consultants in a generalist way for nutrition and other things, or just in terms of planning, it's the the farmer would have to get planning permission uh for new rather than r replenishment. Um we supply the drawing models that most people drop in to make their planning applications. Yeah.

Sarah Bolt 32:25

So help make it easier, sir.

Safety Rails Working At Height

Jeremy Perkins 32:27

Absolutely. Yeah.

Andrew Jones 32:28

So um one of the things you make we mentioned there is safety. I mean, that's one thing, certainly, the conversation we had last year with Eric talking about preparing for silage, it's it's the safety of everybody involved. Where are you guys in terms of uh helping along with that?

Jeremy Perkins 32:43

Well, we we we didn't get into the business of wanting to make metalware because we wanted to sell metalware, but it's something our customers asked for. So we've developed a handrail system. A lot of people were using a proprietary key clamp or whatever type system if they had um that for working at high regs. Um the difficulty is it's either on or it's not. So what we've developed is a um handrail system that clamps onto our and other people's systems, either vertical or sloping walls. Um and it the the clamp actually has a vertical spigot and then a handrail, bent galvanized handrail, two rail handrail, and and any individual panel can be lifted out so you can gain access and then put back on readily. Or if you want to, for example, roll down the sides with a machine, you can lift them all off, and then you can put all them all back on quick quick quickly and easily. So, like all things, if if it's easy to use, it's most likely that people are going to carry on using it rather than just leaving them off and forgetting about it.

Andrew Jones 33:53

Yeah, that that's the answer to most things, isn't it?

Sarah Bolt 33:55

If it's easy, it's key on farm, isn't that?

Andrew Jones 33:57

Yeah, if it's easy to use, people will do it. Yeah, they will do it. But yeah, I mean, you know, let's as we're saying this just as a thing, everybody stay safe when it comes to size making, because it's not just working at height, it's big machinery, it it there's lots of potential dangers involved.

Jeremy Perkins 34:12

And it's pressured to get the job done, you know, if if if um if you've got larger sheets that need to be pulled back, they get covered every night overnight. Um if if the axis is ready and and and you can do it, otherwise they get get left exposed, and you're you're all you you're starting your oxidation losses even before you've ensiled.

Build Timelines Contractors And AD Lessons

Andrew Jones 34:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly. As you say, it should be thing um covered every night, ideally, because otherwise you are losing, as you say, you it it's reducing its effectiveness straight away. Um and then uh we are so is there anything else you think we should be talking about in terms of preparing or organizing or getting a new site ready or getting a new site to happen?

Jeremy Perkins 34:53

I think the the main thing is being aware of timeliness. You you're at this time of the year. We're coming into April now, and some people say, Okay, well, do you think you can make it, but I need to have it ready by second cut because I've run out of space. So we do we at our factory um in Colchester, we have a pre-cast factory with a gantry system, crane system that runs in the factory and then outside to a storage yard. And we try wherever possible to incentivize some of our customers to take deliveries of the panels ready for construction in that winter period so we can carry on stacking them. Um, but I would let's just say we're all we're it's all of us are the same. We we tend to think about things when we need it immediately, um, and a little bit of planning and and now finding ground workers to do things at the drop of a hat, people aren't around like they used to be. So it it needs some time planning um ready for whatever uh the number of customers we now see that are forced into using an ag bag temporary system or whatever for a year as a stop gap because they haven't got their construction ganch yard, and they knew it, they knew where they wanted to be, and so we we're trying to get that decision and make sure people have got all the options available to them, let's say, by Christmas, so that those decisions can be made in a timely way.

Andrew Jones 36:29

I it did make me sort of think as we said, oh, let's put this out in April. It's like, is this a good time? Because we're not trying to make people think about silage pits now, it's just a general conversation about silage from the angle of silage pits because you're not gonna have them ready for as soon as people if someone suddenly wants them now, it's not gonna happen.

Jeremy Perkins 36:45

No, but it's applicable. I mean, whole crop or certainly maize, the the it's timely. I mean, this is this is we we met and we've we've I I complimented you on a previous podcast, and I'm a fan of listening to your podcast, so I I I thought I was invited as a speaker in a more generalist way rather than just trying to sell a product or shove something down somebody's throat. Exactly. And and I would say um there is always an opportunity to learn something and uh look at some of the AD operators and what they're doing with some of their sites, and they're just as sensitive as farmers. You know, they they the RHI um inputs have gone down markedly unless they use c straw or muck or co other co-products, but they're looking at their costs and they want the the most efficient per cube storage solution. Um and that applies, I'm sure that applies to farmers just the same, larger dairy farms. What what you've just said it, what do AD do differently?

Andrew Jones 37:49

Do they do anything differently or they've got the same regulations to keep to, uh obviously, but do they do anything particularly different?

Jeremy Perkins 37:55

Is there a diff what different slant do they have? They optimise their um storage, they tend to have wider clamps and use them faster. Um they uh use, for example, that they they work with us to develop a four-meter high panel system. I mean, there's a lot of engineering in it. Um each panel weighs 3.1 tons rather than 1.6 tonnes. So a 360 to swing those over, it makes even a 27-tonne machine swing over. But if you can plan for it, they've now worked on 28 to 32 meter-wide clamps and optimizing the cost per cube and the best benefit for you know the most fuel energy efficient solution. But are they getting across that face quick enough? I suppose would be my only question for that.

Andrew Jones 38:45

Yes.

Jeremy Perkins 38:46

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Jones 38:47

They are.

Sarah Bolt 38:48

Yeah, the size of the plants is big enough to be able to handle that.

Andrew Jones 38:52

Yeah. So um as it is that time of year, um you've got an older pit, it needs tidying up ready for new season. We're not talking a new pit now. What would you be suggesting people look at, or potential solutions, or what should they do to be getting that clamp ready for silage?

Jeremy Perkins 39:11

Well, we we we um have a range of wall paints and sidewall films. I'm a great fan of sidewall films um for reducing the exposure from from the sides. Um, we have quite a few uh customers who use repair concrete um to to patch, um stop those leachate losses, stop the oxygen getting in. Um broken panels can be replaced so that we actually um cast some instead of them being lips with uh offset lips, they can be cast with a lip on the same side, so they can literally be a replacement panel that slots in the middle without a lot of complicated threading in. Um I think that the the main thing, um, and this is coming back to our discussion earlier about do you favour back walls or open-ended clamps? There's a there's an arms race, isn't there, to get to the back of the clamp before the new season crop if you've got a back wall. If you've got an open-ended clamp, you can start filling from the other end, and you as long as as long as it's covered, that material can stay there, and then you you've got the opportunity to blend later on. So a bit of planning and thought as to how you're using your your last of your materials before the new cut.

Sarah Bolt 40:40

And I guess thinking about making sure it's clean as well. You don't want any moldy silage left in the bottom, absolutely causing that spoilage right at the start.

Andrew Jones 40:48

Quite right, quite right, yeah. Again, you've just said really what the same thing Eric said last year. It's planning, it's making sure everything is planned in advance. It's not, let's be blunt. I have had it and I know I'm not the only one. Uh can I have some silage sheet, please? Uh yeah, when do you want it? Well, we started cutting this morning, so uh ideally tomorrow. Okay, I'll see what I can do. Just make sure you've got your sheet or your additive or whatever it is on farm, ready to go. If you know you normally cut beginning of May, first of May. So it's there, ready to go, not this sudden all the peas, perfect preparation.

Sarah Bolt 41:29

Wow, and and and all the others. Yeah.

Jeremy Perkins 41:31

I I I mean, we of course it's human nature. We we try my colleagues on the plastic side, oxygen barry film side, they try to have a stock with um wholesalers that of the the standard um sizes be for that oh damn it factor. But planning and and it's amazing all of a sudden things catch up with them. You know, it doesn't take long before you're on to the next cut.

Andrew Jones 41:56

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It half half of it is undoubtedly is the planning. It it's like everything. If you want to do a good job, it's planned for it, isn't it? If you suddenly turn up and think it's gonna happen, then that just doesn't work.

Sarah Bolt 42:08

Start getting your contractors on side as well.

Dutch Attention To Detail On Forage

Andrew Jones 42:11

Yeah, that's that's another big discussion for another day in terms of contractors. Um, but um, yeah, I mean that's it. I mean, filling the silage pit, that's a whole whole discussion in terms of uh contractors because I've definitely seen contractors turn up with six lorries, uh six lorries, six trailers uh at once, and then half an hour you get nothing else, and so I've seen maize pits collapse and everything because they're they've pushed it all on and they've not done anything, whereas it should be that you know constant roll and they'll only you're only rolling for those couple of inches, it's not put a load on and hope for the best. You've you've got to keep working it.

Jeremy Perkins 42:47

A couple of years ago, we were taken to um a uh Dutch partner Bosch Paton, one of their farms in the Netherlands. Guy was milking single-handedly 220 cows himself, and he makes a lasagna of maize, whole crop, grass, seven or eight layers. Um and okay. It has to be said that the system that they used incorporated uh an EU grant. But what this guy was doing was having contractors where within two hours' notice he had a system to unpeel, uncover the uh the silage covers, and basically it was a metal gantry system on top of a vertical wall system with a sheet which is probably twice the specific weight of a truck curtain signer, and it would basically roll it back. Some very interesting uh additional features like a catenery wire with a styling mesh steel mesh curtain in the front to stop the style styling's easing the front face, um weighed. Tubes tubes which were longer tubes and what looked like fire hoses but full of salt water. The front was sealed with a dam. Literally, the the end of the sheet had a bar in it raising it up. So you created a water dam of salt water and a pumping system that took that salt water out into a bladder tank, and the press of two buttons, this farmer could expose that clamp for the next of the seven or eight cuts within two hours' notice. Very impressive system.

Andrew Jones 44:30

Definitely.

Jeremy Perkins 44:31

And 44% dry matter. Really, really good stuff. And he was he was so particular. He was a tall guy. I mean, I'm 1.8 metres, and he was I I was looking up to him. So he was literally with his hand pointing to the top corner and apologizing about something that may have been 20 centimetres by 20 centimetres of oxidizing material just on the corners, up in the top corners. And he was really a po he really meant it. He was apologizing about that. He was he was wondering how he was gonna do he was gonna dig that off with a fork before he put the shear grab there. And I mean that's that's the attention to detail. That stuff was rocket fuel.

Andrew Jones 45:19

It is, it's it's the attention to detail that can make the difference.

Jeremy Perkins 45:22

Yeah. When the milk price is down, he's losing less money. When the milk price is up, because they're the same as all the other places, they're under the kosh, he's making very good money. So he's investing for that top line.

Sarah Bolt 45:39

And that's what it's all about, isn't it? It's that attention to detail to make the most of what you've got. Yeah.

Andrew Jones 45:46

Yeah. And uh yeah, and I guess look, I'm a fan of the oxygen barrier sheets, undoubtedly. And it just gets me sometimes. I know it's easy for me to say it's not my money, but you've just spent thousands and thousands of pounds to put that silage in there. Why would you not want to spend that little bit more of those oxygen barrier sheets? Because you don't get the same sort of shrinkage, you don't get the same sort of waste, so you've got more silage in there, you've got more bang for your buck, basically. So why wouldn't you invest in some plastic to um keep more of what you've got basically and make more of what you've got.

Jeremy Perkins 46:21

We used to do a crude payback thing, but it looked too like foot-in-the-door sales technique, but it it wasn't, it was just a genuine sentiment to say, if you're gonna look at that building over there that's 40 years old, it had a financial life of 20 years, it's got a physical life of 30 years, and it's still holding up after 40 years. Why would you not do the same with your silage clamp systems? Because if you value your silage at 70 pounds plus a tonne, and whether it's poorer, it's still a certain number of kilos going through a room and every day. You need this is what you need to be, and over a 30-year period, that's a sensible payback decision.

Andrew Jones 47:06

Definitely. Now, sustainability. I know Tim, your boss, is very keen on this. I guess there's two angles I'm thinking of. Concrete, some would say is not the most sustainable product. Are there other options coming? Plastic, are there other options coming?

Jeremy Perkins 47:25

Yeah, I think the ethos in our company. Um some people who are on a line contracts will be aware of supermarkets with their scope one and two emissions uh targets um farms and then scope three as well. We as a company, our chairman is very, very strong. He spent um the lion's share of his time in the construction industry, and he's really majoring on that. From our concrete side, in answer to your question, we're looking at cement replacement products. Um Bosch Baton, our partner, is doing just the same.

Andrew Jones 48:01

Anything look potential at the moment?

Jeremy Perkins 48:03

They've got so they're on a journey that if from uh product one to product five, they've made product five in a geopolymer, but it's not commercially sustainable. And with their energy uh carbon reduction programs with cement replacement, they're um between uh stage two and three at the moment. Their factory is 3.3 hectare site, one building. Admittedly it's got some steel pillars in the centre, but it's one building. It's got a 5.4 megawatt solar farm on the roof. Even though they're a concrete company, they're net exporters to the Dutch grid with electric every day after their own factory.

Andrew Jones 48:53

That's um that's yeah.

Jeremy Perkins 48:55

Alg, I mean, I've driven down here today, I'm a high mileage driver, so I think my company tolerates the fact that I've got a petrol, electric, hybrid company car, but the everybody else is on electric cars. The uh our sister companies um delivering and using cranes, they're all on HVO, so they are really focused on laser focused on how we can work towards being carbon neutral. And I mean, it's a serious intent from our chairman that he's gonna get there. It's embargoed what I can say, but we have worked with um a Cranfield PhD student for a two-year study on plastics, so that's another answer to your question. So alternatives to plastics. Yeah, it's it's it's at the forefront of our minds what we do it and how we do it. I mean, there's no there's no getting around the fact that that concrete works are energy intensive and carbon intensive, but we've we've made great strides in what we've done already.

Andrew Jones 49:57

And and on that note, you should say that obviously all all the plastics are recyclable. Yes. Absolutely, yeah. And that's certainly an important point to make. Yeah. Um, and if you go back to one of our very first podcasts long before Sarah was ever involved, it was talking about farm recycling and and using and recycling all your plastics and stuff. So there are all these options out there to to make the most of your plastics. Well, try and make it as cyclic a system as possible.

Jeremy Perkins 50:27

Yeah, I mean it's not glib. We we I mean we we all work from home and we have a couple of offices which are designed to be on public transport uh networks. Um and the I I know our chairman wouldn't entertain anything that that wasn't as environmentally friendly as possible. So yeah.

Sarah Bolt 50:46

It's a real credit to the business, and uh I think it's probably really nice to be able to talk about that. Um, and you know, there's so much pressure put on farmers from a carbon point of view. So that's just doing your bit as well, I think is is a really nice.

Jeremy Perkins 51:02

I'm I'm old school, I'm I'm 63, and I understand the methane cycle and a few other things, and I get very aggravated as a lot of red meat producers about some of the stuff, but I also see um I mean, my one of my landlords is actually putting a small solar um uh unit into his uh big house in the village simply to charge three cars efficiently. So there's lots of people paying a lot of attention to things. You know, it used to be like a bit like logistics used to be painted on the side of uh Laurie, sustainability was the buzzword. Well, it's gone beyond that, where uh there are people in our group company that's specifically charged with delivering on that and year on year improving on it.

Andrew Jones 51:51

Well, it it's coming more and more. And look, there's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just maybe we're all getting a bit fed up on maybe that word, or we need to be out like it's we need to uh what's the word I'm looking for?

Sarah Bolt 52:04

No, I'm gonna go hand in hand with efficiency, doesn't it?

Andrew Jones 52:07

Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. We we need to reframe it. That was the word I'm looking for. That ultimately it's all efficiency. Yes. It's all efficiency. If we can be more efficient and you know, we're saving money, then an efficiency at the start of the whole conversation is quality forage. If we can get quality forage, you don't need to buy that half a kilo extra concentrate, or whatever it happens to be, it still comes back to quality forage.

Jeremy Perkins 52:31

And efficiencies. I mean, the farm I was on this morning, things that are nothing to do with, but I spot them. You know, the f the fact that every single cow yard gate has a human hoop so that a man can walk through for immediate welfare attendance, but it's efficient for labour. The whole site was designed on a slope so everything moves downhill. Um, auto scrapers. That farm was immaculate, but also really delivering. It's good and it's great to see. So that thought process when he's talking to me about his silage clamp design, he's almost on it before me with his checklist for what he's already. He actually said to me, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to reduce walling because in trying to make these um clamps wider. What you've got to understand is those cows in their pedigree, they um they're on high production. I want to have narrow clamps and I'll pay um a commercial, right? But you know, I I I want to have the privilege, yeah. You know, and he was a tenant, yeah, hasn't got much contribution from his landlord, sons in the business, looking at it very sensibly for how he can make something smart, you know. So all the usual stuff that you probably see day in, day out when you go on farms, auto pushes from um uh robotic auto pushes for the front fee barriers and all the things that really long-term deliver up, you know?

Invest Once And Future Proof Properly

Andrew Jones 54:00

Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. Um, we've talked about getting the site, we've talked about some of the regulations, we've talked about a little bit about safety, we've talked a little bit about getting your clamp ready for the new season. Is there anything else you think we should know that we haven't spoken about?

Jeremy Perkins 54:20

I I don't think so. I think it's the this integrated approach to having something where um you look at all those small elements for uh UV barrier. Some people have a um a plastics thing with birds with pecking, so that you've got you've got to it it very much is attuned to what the individual farmer circumstances are. Um the main thing is to start early and to to have something that is the right system and make a decision once. I go on to AD plants where the contract has been gunfought by a couple of big German capital equipment um companies for the main digester things, and then let out on a contract for silage clamps and it's just done cheaply. And eight years down the line, you've got steel panels with what I call the grain wall little clips with the panels that are that's corroding around the outside. They're having to redo it, they're having to pecker up great big areas of concrete with the high traffic area. Now, I'm not saying that if you've got a different specification, you've got uh more reinforcement, different different type of concrete, but the corners that were cut mean that in eight to ten years you see things are happening, and now the the flak dairy farms don't change hands very often, whereas a lot of um pioneers who start a project want to do a turn and actually divest their investment in five years, ten years, and you're noticing a lot of the tier one energy companies are now having to invest in farm-based green crop uh energy as part of their overall portfolio, their levels of due diligence at investment going into something that's been designed sort of five, eight years ago, is at a much higher level. Now, instead of looking at it as a red tractor auditor or whatever the analogy would be in the farm thing, if you said you've got to change a bank manager and I'm gonna put on another 200 cows and we're gonna go in and look at all those investment decisions um that have got you to 550 cows now, would that stand the same scrutiny? So it's really easy. I mean, I'm a farmer, and like I said, pound saved is a pound earned. So I I'm I'm kind of got a foot in both camps, and I can see, but if you look at the Dutch model longer term sustainability, invest once, invest well, invest for the best efficiency, that's got to be the right adage if you're gonna stay in the business, and there's some people that are gonna give up, but there are a lot of people that are expanding or wanting to stay long term in the dairy business. I want to work with them.

Sarah Bolt 57:17

That's really good advice for anything, isn't it?

Andrew Jones 57:19

The uh yeah, do it once and do it right. Completely agree, completely agree. Um, but um uh yeah, no, it's interesting because uh like you were saying, will it stand up? I mean, and they probably said this last year when we were talking um with Eric. I have one experience of going on an AD plant, and I had to watch a 10-15 minute safety video before I was even allowed pretty much anywhere out the office. It wasn't just like farming, you kind of rock up. Yeah, hopefully most of us have got some kind of farm sense having been round, but there are definitely some that don't. Um, but you know, uh it's the fact that we had to I had to do that before I was even allowed on farm, and it's just different.

Jeremy Perkins 58:01

I in the car, I've got my farming kit and my dog, sheepdog, but amongst that I've got six different types of PPE that are required for AD plants. So they're controlled. Some of it is really good. Some of it you can be a stranger, you can have a safety induction as a visitor, like you were.

Andrew Jones 58:22

Yeah.

Jeremy Perkins 58:22

But then they put when you on your hard hat you have a sticker with a reference number. So if anything happened to you, they know exactly who should be looking after you, who you are. Um yeah, the there's there's a their high traffic area um size and they their safety record is amazing. And perhaps my son rather than me will see heightened levels of awareness on farms as they get bigger.

Sarah Bolt 58:56

And and probably for good reason when we look at some of the statistics of uh farming incidents and and the like.

Jeremy Perkins 59:03

Sadly, we lost a neighbour of mine two weeks ago, 71, in a in a grain bin. Um I was a retained firefighter, um, and I would have probably attended there, and I probably would have volunteered to go down on a rope. Um but uh the standard operating procedure is for safety now. The fire service cut the side of the bin out, um, but it was too late. Um and he'd done that all his life. Very sad, very sad.

Andrew Jones 59:36

Definitely, definitely. And I don't really want to sort of almost end our time on that uh sad note, but I'm looking at the time thinking it's time we start to wrap this up. So um, any last words of wisdom from yourself?

Jeremy Perkins 59:50

I don't know whether words of wisdom. I mean I've enjoyed my journey, and I keep saying uh late David Penhalligan, an expert, comes from more than 20 miles away. But no, I regard myself as a specialist. The thing is, we've done a couple of um Sappho Roadshow speaker things at livestock markets all around the country and that. If people have got queries, I'm not necessarily um interested in selling a system to them, but I would definitely help anybody that wants any advice on how that, particularly if they've got an existing system and they need to retrofit or whatever. Quite happy to engage on that.

Andrew Jones 1:00:26

Okay, Sarah.

Sarah Bolt 1:00:28

Oh, it's a hard one. I think even though we've had a really good discussion there, and I think um certainly hearing about um both whether it's new silage pits or whether, as you say, it's retrofitting and really keeping on the right side of uh of our inspectors, um, it's all hard for farmers to to do, but it's good to know that there's somebody there that uh that can help.

Andrew Jones 1:00:50

So to finish, um uh yeah, as you as Sarah said, it's a difficult one. I mean, we you know, there are regulations you need to follow, there are answers like all of these things. Um and really it still comes back to repeating again is preparation, whether that is thinking about when you want a silage pit and not expecting it suddenly to happen, or whether it's making sure you've got your sheet on farm or making sure that um pit is clean and repaired and all the additives on farm or the contractors line.

Jeremy Perkins 1:01:21

And appreciating the value of the homegrown forage because you know you you invest in better straws if you're trying to improve the genetics of your herd. Why, when you've got the grass growing and it's out there and you've cared and price of nitrogen that it is now, why would you not want to optimise that performance? Yeah, no, completely.

Andrew Jones 1:01:47

And that's it, it it's being prepared to make the most of that system that you've got. And we've talked about silage pits, but ultimately it's still just a bit of a reminder to be prepared for what's for for the coming season in terms of all the other things that we've spoken about. Um, but on that note, I guess it's a goodbye from me.

Sarah Bolt 1:02:06

It's a goodbye from me, and thank you.

Jeremy Perkins 1:02:08

Um nice to meet you, Sarah. Thank you, Andrew. No, thank you.

Andrew Jones 1:02:17

Thank you for listening to ChewintheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. And now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness, or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of Chewinthe Cud Limited. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of ChewintheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Limited, visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye.