ChewintheCud Podcast

No Cake, More Milk: Is it Possible with Robots?

• ChewintheCud Ltd • Season 4 • Episode 23

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If your robot relies on cake to keep cows moving, ask yourself a blunt question: what happens the day the pellet system breaks? That single point of failure is one of the reasons we wanted this conversation, because Kelli Hutchings and Matt Strickland have gone the other way and proven a “cake-free robot” approach can work on a commercial dairy.

Kelli is a feed and herd management adviser who found herself deep in the world of DeLaval VMS after helping launch large robotic sites across North America. Matt is a fourth-generation dairy farmer in Merced, California, running eight robots milking around 500 cows in a guided flow barn, alongside a larger conventional herd. Together, they explain why feeding concentrate in the robot can be a costly habit, how cows learn expectations fast, and why cow behaviour and facility design matter as much as any dashboard.

We get practical about the change process: starting new heifers with no pellets, weaning conditioned cows slowly, and building a shortlist of KPIs that protect you from rumours and knee-jerk decisions. We talk visits, fetch lists, box time, incompletes, milk components, butterfat, and the commercial headline of income over feed costs. You will also hear the limitations, including why guided or modified guided flow is currently the best fit and why forage quality and TMR palatability are non-negotiable.

If you manage robotic milking, advise UK dairy farms, or are planning a robot investment, this is a rare chance to rethink concentrate strategy with real numbers and honest caveats. 

This was recorded in December 2025, and all information was correct at the time of recording.  

Subscribe for more practical dairy conversations, share this with someone considering robots, and leave us a review so more farmers can find the show. 

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Welcome And Today’s Big Question

Andrew Jones

This is the Chewinthe Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to Chewi nthe Cud Podcast. My name's Andrew Jones, and with me as always is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt

I'm very well, thank you, Andrew. How are you?

Andrew Jones

Yeah, I'm not too bad, not too bad. It's cooler today, but it's been a little bit warm recently, hasn't it?

Sarah Bolt

Over 30s for three days, was it?

Andrew Jones

I know. For May, that's just mad.

Sarah Bolt

Absolutely mad. Absolutely mad. But they tell us we're gonna get more like this, don't they?

Andrew Jones

Well, I guess I guess we'll have to wait and see, won't we, ultimately? But um but yes, no, it is. And and and I will say it, just make sure you're safe out there with a hat and some sunscreen. And if you want to know why, listen to our uh episode two episodes ago on uh melanoma. It's well worth a listen if you haven't already. Um, but enough of that. Let's let's talk about today's uh topic. So today was really interesting. I mentioned it in the recording. Um, I actually uh heard uh the lady on the podcast talk at a webinar back late 2024, early 2025, and I thought it was a topic that was well worth sharing. So it reached out and and yeah, we we recorded an episode with them.

Sarah Bolt

With uh across the pond, as it were.

Andrew Jones

Yeah, I know. And that was probably one of my most bizarre days since I've started this podcast. Is the um the the day we uh recorded this was also the day we recorded the episode with John Huxley, which was our our Christmas episode. So we were talking to New Zealand first thing in the morning and California um later that day, and it was a very bizarre day in that way.

Sarah Bolt

It's amazing how you can travel without really travelling.

Andrew Jones

Oh yes. Well, what is it, Jamiroquai said, travelling without moving, but that's another different topic. Um, but anyway, so let's uh let's go enjoy today's episode.

Sponsor Message And How To Subscribe

Andrew Jones

This podcast has been brought to you today by ChewintheCud Limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, our signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. For more details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on nutrition @chewinthecud.com. ChewintheCud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on training @chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones

And welcome to the ChewintheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt

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Andrew Jones

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Meet The Guests And Their Farms

Andrew Jones

So hello and welcome back to ChewintheCud Podcast. Our guests today are Kelli Hutchings and Matt Strickland, all the way from the US. So it's good afternoon from us, but good morning to you both. How are you doing? Great. Good. Said with such enthusiasm, Kelli. It must be early with you guys, but uh but yes. So uh as we record this, it's late 2025. We won't hear this till 2026. Um, but I originally uh heard Kelli talk about this on a webinar. I thought it was early 25, but Kelly said late 24. So it's been a little while. Um, and so her and Matt have agreed to join us. So it was it was a really interesting webinar that uh DeLaval had at the time, which was basically um cake-free robots. I mean, the conventional wisdom is that you've got to chuck cake at the robots. But before we get uh talking about that, uh Kelly, if we can start with you, um, what got you to where you are today?

Kelli Hutchings

Well, I'm um um I'm just wrapping up my 33rd year in the feed and grain industry here in Colorado. And and no, I I did not start this journey when I was 12, so don't ask me my age. Um but in 2018, I I left the current feed mill manufacturer that I was working for and went out on my own and started Kelli's Ag service. And I'm basically a feed area manager advisor for the dairies that I work with, because the majority of the nutritionists that work with the farms here in Colorado do not live here. And so I'm their eyes and ears on the farm. I'm on the farms every week. Uh, I guess you could call me a Gal Friday, uh, walking cows, checking manures, sampling forages, feed inventory, et cetera. And then in 2019, the local DeLaval robotic dealership came to me and said, Hey, we're putting in a few robots and we need a uh herd management advisor. Would you be interested? And I said, sure. I I at that point, Andrew, I didn't even know that robots could milk cows because there's not a whole lot of milking parlours in a feed area or a cornfield where I kind of live. And so those few robots ended up being uh 62 V300s, uh milking 4,000 cows. So my learning curve, my comfort zone was pushed really hard out of um uh of what I could do in in my sleep. And then uh through that journey, then uh D Laval reached out to me and they started uh subcontracting me to help with dairies around North America. And that's how I met Matt Strickland. So I'm a feed lady by trade who got sucked into robotic milking.

Andrew Jones

And Matt, what about yourself?

Matt Strickland

Yeah, so we we milked uh about 2,200 cows here in Merced, California. Um, 500 of them on on VMS. Um I'm I'm a fourth generation dairy farmer. Uh great-grandfather immigrated from Holland in the 1920s. Um, and my grandfather was a large animal vet who decided he wanted to dairy in the 70s and he moved us up here to where we're at now. Um, my parents were in the business for a while, um, but when I got out of college, they wanted to get out of the business. So my grandfather and I purchased the herd from them. And then in 2014, I believe my grandfather decided he wanted to retire. So um my wife and I purchased our herd from him. Um we started looking at going robotic around 2017-2018. Um we really had a good labor force that we wanted to keep. I was kind of worried about losing some guys to better jobs. So we wanted to create some some higher-end, higher paying jobs. So we thought that by going robotic we could provide those. Um, so that was kind of the initial push to get into robots. Um, since then, labor has become more of a challenge, and now it's like, oh great, we can save a lot of money with with uh a lot of money on labor with these robots. So uh it's kind of a different challenge today than when we started. But um, yeah, that's kind of that's kind of how we got to where we are today. We started milking uh with the VMS in uh July of 2022. So we're about three and a half years in today.

Andrew Jones

And um you say it's only 500 cows through the robots. What are the other 1700 milks through?

Matt Strickland

Uh we're going through a double 22 herringbone parlor. Um we got a Germania parlor in there. Um we've kind of revamped it because that it's showing some age. Um so we still use the Germania stalls and the Germania arms, but we've gone through and put in new takeoffs and and all new pulsation and things like that. But um, that's kind of gonna be the next phase in the next few years is what are we gonna do with that parlor? Because it it really is starting to show some age. Um, so we gotta decide do we do we want to re-remodel that? Do we want to go with more robots? What do we want to do? But um the jury's kind of out on that still. We're not positive what we want to do. We're just kind of starting to gather information on that.

Guided Flow Design And Training Pens

Sarah Bolt

So, how many robots have you got, Matt?

Matt Strickland

Uh eight total.

Sarah Bolt

So eight for those 500 cows.

Matt Strickland

Yeah, and it's it's four pins. The the robot room sits in the middle of the freestall barn, and so we have two robots per pen. Um, we are a fully guided flow system, so the only way for a cow to get to the feed bunk is to go through the sort gate. Um, we also utilize sort pins uh for cows that we need to treat, and also we use those as training pins also as we bring in new heifers or new cows to the robots. Um, they live in those sort pins for um two to three days as we train them.

Andrew Jones

And how have you found a transition from forgetting about what we're here to talk about, but from from let's call it conventional milking into the robots? I suppose you've got that flexibility that the cow doesn't suit the system, you can put it back into the conventional system.

Matt Strickland

Yeah, yeah, we definitely utilize that. Um it definitely helps to be able to do it that way. Um because yeah, there are some cows that just it they don't fit fit the robot barn, um, whether it's temperament and they they don't like going into a a box stall, or whether it's teeth placement or things like that, right? Um but we we definitely have the flexibility to move cows back and forth. It keeps keeps the robots a lot more efficient.

Andrew Jones

Yeah, because you're making sure you've got the cows that fit the system in there rather than messing around with cows that don't. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So as I started this by saying, conventional wisdom is that you need to um put cake through the robots, concentrate through the robots. Um before I start, something I was reading an article about yourself only yesterday. What, or maybe Kelly might be better to answer this one? What is the usual level of concentrate fed through a robot in your part of the world?

Kelli Hutchings

So based on the farms that they've had me on, they're primarily guided farms. Um I don't do a lot of work with free flow barns, but six to seven pounds of concentrate is kind of an average or was kind of an average until we really got into this. Do we really need the pellet or the cake, as you call it, in the robot? Now, for example, out in California, um almost all of our guys out there now are down to that two pounds just enough to keep her occupied for the six and a half, seven minutes that she's in the box.

Andrew Jones

Yeah, the reason I ask is the article I was reading yesterday was talking about oh, you're saving 10 pounds at the cost of 10 buying 10 pounds of cake. And I was like going, well, that's only like what's that, four and a half kilos. And uh, like most of the robots I know of, they usually feed up to about 10 kilos through the robots. Um, and a client I had that took robots out, they were old forward robots uh at the time. Um like we got it down to about two and a half kilos, so what's that, five pounds a day? Uh, and then if we got it any lower, that sort of increased the um what's the word? The the the list, you know, to go and get them and bring them up to the robots. I can't think what the list I'm looking at the word is. Fetch fetch list, do what we call it. Yeah, fetch list, thank you. That's the one I'm looking for. I just couldn't remember the word, thank you, Matt. But yeah, it increased the fetch list. But it was just curious to know that. It made me go, oh, that's that's a lot lower than most people here. If if you're ever having to do robots, it's usually they're feeding up to like sort of 10 kilos and probably averaging I don't know, like four or five, I would is what I'd say. I don't know what you'd say, Sarah, in terms of your costings, what were they might suggest?

Sarah Bolt

You know, I have to say I haven't looked at the costings. I should have done that before I uh before I came on uh on this uh on this call. So for for Kelly and Matt, for Kelly and Matt, um I work for a a company called King's Hay, and we actually have the largest dairy costings um service in the UK with over two and a half thousand or sort of just about two thousand um dairy herds on our costings. That's about a quarter of all of the dairy farmers in the UK would be on our costing service. So I should have looked that up. I'm neglecting Kings Hay there. So my apologies to my colleagues um who are probably shouting, shouting at the uh the recording as we speak.

Kelli Hutchings

Well, and I'm gonna throw a question. You don't get to ask all the questions. We're gonna ask questions too, but primarily, what is the uh the barn layouts? Is it predominantly free flow or is guided gaining momentum?

Andrew Jones

And I know you guys call it something different back there, what milk first or something like that, but uh no, I think some people have I've heard in the past referred to it as a forced system. Um, but I I'm not a big fan of it. I think guided is the is the better name. I think that's what most people would call it. I think up till now it's been very much depending on the area you're in, depending on the service. I mean, if I'm honest, down here in the southwest, there's been a lot of uh Lalies because of the very good service from the Leley dealer from the Southwest. And in other parts of the country, you talk to people and they go, Oh, why is Lely so popular with you? It's it's De Laval. And um uh, but that has now changed. I think some of the Laleys in other franchises around the UK have lifted their game. So I think it's a bit more um uh more competitive than to what it was, but certainly Laley uh have been the leader here in the Southwest because of the service that was coming from the local dealer that was you know covering the Southwest. But it um but it is interesting, but that's not to say again, even there's local pockets, because um I can think of a particular a De La Val dealer uh up where I grew up near Froom, and there's a lot of De La Val robots around there simply because there's a good de la Val dealer around there. So a lot of it comes down to what your support service and support is, doesn't it? Let's be honest.

Sarah Bolt

People do business with people two grazing herds um that that I've dealt with in the past. So robotics with grazing a book's de la Val.

Andrew Jones

Yeah, they're saying that uh we're going to do a podcast uh at some point that's gonna be grazing and robots, and uh the guy that's talking about that will be a a Laley uh robot. So it's it let's be honest, it's usually either blue or red. The others don't usually get much of a look in. Um but uh but yeah, no, so so that's where it is with that. But it's interesting, I I'll mention it now. I did a cow signals course only the other day, and that was uh uh DeLavale system. Uh, but it was a system I'd never come across before. I mentioned this to you earlier, didn't I, Sarah? And you said you had. I he had out-of-parlour feeders as well as the robots. And I said to him, Why have you got out-of-parlour feeders? And he said, Because the robots are expensive feeding machines, otherwise, they're there just to milk. So I feed a minimal variable amount in the robot, and then everything else is topped out, topped up in the out-of-parlour feeders. So he the sort gate, instead of you know, you have your sort gate into the robots out to the beds, it was into the robots or into the outer parlor feeders. Then once they had a top-up there, if they were allowed one, then they went out themselves back around to the beds. But um it was it was different. It's the first time I'd seen a system like that anyway.

Sarah Bolt

Yeah, I'd come across it um just once before on a on a quite a small farm that um tried to make the the robot as efficient as possible by therefore using out a polar feeders just to get that that concentrate into them, really. So yeah.

Andrew Jones

Yeah, this guy was about 180 chaos. But anyway, we're getting we're we're here to talk about the other way. Matt.

Matt Strickland

Yeah, I think I think just to comment on that, I think that's the beauty of robots. There's about a thousand different ways you can do it and make it work. Um and like that's kind of been one of our messages with this, you know, no, no pellet or no cake in the in the robot is you know, this is just one way that that we thought we could do it and it's an option. Uh, we we think that we've proven it's it's viable. Um, but it doesn't necessarily fit every scenario or every barn layout or um every nutritionist strategy either. So um if it works for you, great. But if not, find a way that works for you.

Andrew Jones

Well, let's be honest, it's any dairy farm, isn't it? No two farms are the same. No matter what you even if you've got similar systems, it's what works for you, and that's ultimately what it's about.

Why Challenge The Pellet Assumption

Andrew Jones

But taking that step back, Matt, what made you decide to go, hey, let's give this a go with no pellets through the robots? When conventional wisdom is you feed pellets through the robots?

Matt Strickland

Yeah, there there was a few different things. Um, you know, the first was I was talking to my grandfather, um, I think it was even before we started milking, and I was kind of explaining it to him how the how the robotic system works and how they got feed in the in the robots and this and that. And he says, Well, you know, that's kind of going backwards. We used to feed in our grain in our parlors, but we shut that off a long time ago and you know, went with TMRs and it's so much better. And he says, And I said, Well, that's you know, that's how it works, it's how you do it in robots, right? Um, so that was kind of my first, you know, time I kind of thought, well, yeah, maybe this is a little backwards. Um, but then once we started up milking, um, we we had some issues with our grain system, and it was kind of like, man, this this is a whole nother section of the robotic world that we have to manage. We have to manage this grain system, and when it goes down, the cows would stop going to the robots because they somehow all somehow they all find out real quick there's no grain in there and they decide we're not gonna go. Uh and then you know, Kelly has been with me since uh few months before we started up. I want to say about six months before we started milking. So we've kind of you know been working on this project together for for a while, and and she had kind of a similar idea. You know, I was kind of complaining about it, and she's like, Well, what if we could just do without it? And I said, Yeah, you know, I I've been thinking the same thing. Like, why are we why are we doing this? We don't do this in our parlor. Um, you know, we as an industry, we've gone away from PMRs, you know, why why are we doing this? And so we kind of sat down and tried to make a strategy on on how we thought it could work.

Andrew Jones

Okay, and and then what was that strategy? Once you said, okay, we're gonna give this a go, what was the process of making that strategy work?

Matt Strickland

So we knew that cows that got that were on the pellet, when the pellet ran out, they didn't want to go. So we didn't want to pull it away from those cows because we thought we we already know what's gonna happen there, it's gonna fall apart. So the idea was let's bring in you know anything new to the robots, which at the time for us was mainly heifers. Um, we we didn't bring in too many, too many mature cows into the robots. Um, so we said, well, when they come in, let's just start them with nothing and they don't know what they don't know, and we'll see if they can navigate the system and figure it out with without the enticement of a of a bait. Um so that was kind of the first that's kind of how we got started. And then once we saw that was working, then the next phase was well, let's see if the cows that are on pellet, let's let's reduce their intake and try to wean them off it, um, and at least get them down to a minimal a minimal amount of feed. Um and and we kind of started that direction. And I and I should back up a little bit too. Another reason that we kind of thought about doing this was herds in our area were seeing lower butter fat and um and milk components in their robotic herds. Um, we didn't see that as much. We had a pretty good training protocol, so our cows were getting to the bunk and and eating eating the TMR out there pretty good. Um, so we didn't see as much of a decrease as other herds, but that was one thing we kind of thought was was are these cows spilling up on a pellet in the in the robot and not going out to the bunk and eating all the stuff that makes them melt. Um so we that was another another. Reason we thought, well, let's try to lower this and get these cows to eat more at the bunk of what makes milk.

Andrew Jones

You know, you said earlier your robots are in four pens. Did you do this on a pen basis then with those fresh heifers so that then they weren't getting a, I don't know, sniff of any leftover pellets from previous cows and think, well, I want this and it's not being given to me.

Matt Strickland

No, we didn't. We we that was something that we kind of got criticized for a little bit along the way was well, you know, I you know these cows are they're probably licking up the leftovers in the bowl or whatever. Um but I can tell you this the cows that are on pellet, they like it. It's good. Um when we would go in there and look afterwards, those bowls are clean. Um, I mean, unless there was a an issue with the robot where it was just dumping way too much or something like that. But, you know, we started going in and taking pictures of cows that were on pellet once they leave, and those bowls were slit clean. Um, so we didn't really feel that was too much of an issue. Um, but we also just didn't really have the capacity and the ability to be able to segregate one pen for that. Um plus we kind of said, look, this is real world. We're just gonna roll with it how we would normally manage a herd. We're not a university, we're not gonna, you know, dedicate this pen and be less efficient, right? We still got to make money, so let's let's just do it organically and and see how it goes.

Andrew Jones

And Kelly, from your point of view, you're managing this, I guess, for the from the robot side for DeLaval being the the um being brought in as the herd management specialist. How did it work for you? Or how did you you obviously thought it was a good idea because you had been thinking about it at the same time with Matt, but how did it take from your side of things?

Kelli Hutchings

Well, it it just made sense from a cow behavior standpoint to me. I think that was my first trigger is cows don't know what they don't know, right? I mean, they have a herd instinct and and and they're smarter than we give them credit for, but what we teach them is what they learn, right? And so I always questioned, you know, why are we teaching her that she's going to get this treat or this bait or, you know, whatever you want to call it in in the robot. And when Matt spoke earlier about, you know, the naysayers saying it couldn't be done, or the the girls with no pellets would come in and lick up what was left over. The the new heifers, the new animals that we brought into the facility, they did not know to put their head down and look for a pellet. And that's just simple animal behavior. You know, we weren't training her to have that Pavlov's response to the pellets coming.

Sarah Bolt

Banging on the on the on the on the pipe, as they do in in we have quite a lot of uh cows that are still fed parlors and we know what they're like. They know all the tricks as to banging the pipes and tapping the hoppers and and all sorts to get that extra cake out, don't they?

Kelli Hutchings

Yeah, they didn't they didn't expect it. So, but the one thought process that we had or the hurdle that we we knew we would be coming into as we were taking the the girls that were exposed to pellets or used to pellets off was that we couldn't take it away too fast. Like Matt said, when the feed system went down, the girls told us immediately that they weren't getting their um their their pellet in the box type of deal. So it was very, very slow. Our process was very slow.

Weaning Off Pellets Without Chaos

Andrew Jones

So was there anybody who had done this before? Or I guess how did De Laval think about this? Because again, their system is or robots conventionally are about feeding pellets. So did did De Laval think you're mad, or did you just go, we're doing it, but we're gonna do it in a managed way, or was there something you could rely on and say, well, someone did it five years ago, maybe even at a university, and said, Well, you can do it, but nobody's then followed through with it.

Matt Strickland

I think it was kind of a mixed back. There was a few people at D Laval that that didn't think it was a good idea, didn't think we should do it. Um, and I've always kind of said rightfully so, they got a product that they want to look good, right? So they're they don't want to see it fail. Um, but there was also, you know, another handful of uh D Laval people that were really like, yeah, try, you know, we we don't see why it shouldn't work, but just go for it. Um, you know, and there's so much data on robots, you'll know real quick whether it's working or not. Um kind of the interesting thing when I when we tell people this is you say something in the robot world and you about this, and they go, Oh, no, no, no, it can't work, it doesn't work that way. Um, but you tell a conventional dairyman this, and they're like, Oh yeah, um, that makes sense. So you don't feed grain in the parlor, so what's the difference, right? Um, but yeah, from deal about from deal about it was a little bit of both. And you know, there were some that were hesitant, and there was some that um that were really, you know, really push forward and and said, Yeah, keep going. Um and we kept looking at the data, we kept looking at things to to, you know, we didn't we're just gonna do this and say, Yeah, we're right, we're gonna make it work or whatever. If the data told us otherwise, we're gonna shut it off. But but no one could ever point out a place in the data where it showed it was failing. You know, even some of the naysayers would say, like, well, it's it's not working. And you go, okay, well, show me, show me where it's not working because I can't find it. And they would just say, Well, I'll I can't find it either. I don't know, maybe it is working.

Andrew Jones

So you you got it working with the new heifers. So obviously you had the existing animals that were already in the herd in the robots. What was the next step for them um to get them off the pellets and and be pellet-free? As you say, you had to take your time, but over what sort of time period was it? I'm guessing you changed products potentially. How did you do it? How did you manage it?

Matt Strickland

So, what we did is we decided when they came back from the dry period, we just wouldn't give them any pellet. Um, and I will say if there was any hiccups with this, uh with our plan and with how it went down, um, that was it. Um those cow people people kind of they went cold turkey. Yeah, so they come back from the dry period and we would just cut them off at that point. And you know, a lot of people thought, oh, they won't remember, it's been 60 days. They won't remember. Um they do remember. Um, and I I kind of knew that going in. I had been to a conference at one point and talk, and a dairyman was speaking that he had Laley robots, um, I believe in Indiana. And he said, Well, we have Laley robots on this dairy, but we have D Laval calf feeder um on the other dairy. And those calves that were fed on that box feeder, they trained to the robots quicker because they know that feed comes from a box. And that's two years later, from being a baby calf to a mature, mature animal, that's two years. If they remember their, they're gonna remember 60 days after the dry period. Um, and and I will say those cows do. And so if we have had any trouble with with cows that, you know, we're fetching more or anything like that, it's those mature cows that we, you know, we cut cold turkey when they came back um from the dry period, and and it's been a little bit of an adjustment there. Um, but over time, you know, they they real they learn the system and they realize they gotta how to work it, they gotta go through it, all that stuff, and and it it's played out.

Andrew Jones

Okay. I'll uh because I thought I remember when K I heard Kelly speak, um, that you said Kelly that you I don't know if it's Matt or maybe other clients that have done it, you put on them on a very uh almost like a play pallet, which I think was just salt and something else, wasn't it? Or or am I incorrect? No, you're absolutely that's what our pellet was from day one.

Matt Strickland

Uh we didn't we didn't have any nutritional value to our pellets or much of a nutritional value.

Andrew Jones

So even the original pellets were just simply that they weren't what we would think of as a as a concentrate going through the robots.

Matt Strickland

No, because we wanted to be able to feed our conventional herd and our robot herds off of the same load of feed. Um that way we could be efficient with our with our labor in the feeding area. Um so we didn't want to have a you know specific ration based around a pellet for our robots that you know we got to make a special load for them and not utilize the full volume of the trap.

Andrew Jones

Oh no, that makes sense. That was that was something I wasn't aware of. So yeah, yeah. So so they you basically they were on a full TMR, apart from the fact they had a very basic play pellet then uh to get them to go through the robot. Right. I hadn't realized that.

Matt Strickland

Yeah, and that that was another reason actually talk about why we did this. I get my first bill for these pellets, and I'm like paying a lot for a salty flavor, right?

Kelli Hutchings

Well, and that's the that's one of the biggest questions, Andrew, that that I get as this has gained momentum. And and I have to preface it by saying that there are geographic areas in our globe that that probably don't have the luxury to do this. We're very fortunate out here in the western United States to not only have a wealth of feedstuffs or feed options for our girls, um, but very highly digestible forages and very palatable forages. So there's some places I get pictures from my colleagues around the globe. You know, I've I've trained everybody to get me pictures of the feed bunk. Um and I do see what what we would call like a dry cow ration in a lactating cow bunk, you know, a big, bulky, slow rate of pasta ration in the bunk. And and so yeah, in there in certain areas, they probably have to supplement in in the robot. Maybe that has been one of the deciding factors to put in robots is to be able to get some extra nutrition into the girls that your geographic region doesn't allow you to get. Un different from them, you know, we have that luxury out here. Um, so yeah, like Matt said, it just did not make sense to put a filler or an occupier or a added expense through that robot when we have we have the ability to put it all in the bunk out here.

Andrew Jones

And so from your point of view, Kelly, I'm guessing you're probably watching the figures as much as Matt when this happens. Were there any cuts? Well, yeah, exactly. As you say, Dilavale want to make their product work, don't they? Um, but um, you know, were there any was there a drop-off, were there uh increased fetches, were there, you know, I'm guessing it wasn't as smooth. Uh you said Matt, they they did pick it up, but if you looked at the figures, Kelly, what were those sort of what were they showing you when this first kicked off? What lessons could be learned?

Kelli Hutchings

Well, the biggest lesson to be learned is is if you're on pellets right now, just like Matt said, you know, our hypothesis was will the girls remember through the dry period? But I think our biggest concern was as we started taking the pellets away from the girls that were in the herd that had known this system with pellets, it slow and steady wins the race. It's a it's a marathon, not a sprint, uh, no different than taking the pacifier away from the baby. So we had to do it in very slow increments um so that we didn't crater not only milk production, but visits and flow through the barn.

Data Versus Assumptions And Cow Sense

Kelli Hutchings

And I think there were times, Matt, I think you'd agree that you know things would happen in the barn, and our immediate response was to assume it was because the pellets were being slowly decreased. Um, and nine times out of ten, if we stopped and and asked the right questions and listened to the cows, it it was not that. We we did it so slow. Exactly. But we did. We had a list of KPIs um or that we we would you know check on a daily basis. We created some reports to to track our pellet girls versus our non-pellet girls. And um the the biggest thing was just the communication. I mean, I don't have the luxury to be on his farm every every week and look and listen to the cows, but that constant communication, if we saw something different in the numbers, then I think Matt would agree. My first question to him almost always was what's happening in the barn and what are the cows telling us?

Matt Strickland

What's changed?

Andrew Jones

Yeah.

Matt Strickland

I think my advice would definitely be you have to know your data, and you you you can't you can't make assumptions. And I think there was there is a lot of times we did it personally, but also, you know, outsiders or people you tell about you know what we were doing, their first thing is, well, yeah, if you had pellets on, you wouldn't have that problem, right? Or if you had and but when we would look at our data, our data wouldn't say that. Our data would say that, you know, well, there was a dip, there was a dip in milkings in the cows that had pellets also, right? Or our fetch list was big, but there was just as many cows with pellets on that fetch list too, right? So you you have to know your data and you have to, you know, make sure you're looking at that stuff and and and be able to decipher what it's telling.

Andrew Jones

But yeah, it's not it's not just looking at the headline, is it? It's uh it's burrowing down into it and actually uh seeing the differences or analyzing what's actually there to see what is really going on.

Kelli Hutchings

And I I like to say um that we have so much technology available to us now in the industry that sometimes it can get overwhelming. Uh, but the take-home message is, you know, we can get bogged down in that data. We can misconstrue what the data is saying or reflecting. And I think maybe this next generation of uh dairymen and industry people, they've really lost touch with what helps us understand that data. And that's understanding cows and cow behavior and getting out from behind the desk and going out and looking and listening to the animals and the facility.

Andrew Jones

That was one of the first things I ever remember taught when I started to try and do some nutrition or do the nutrition was you know, cows can't read. Doesn't matter what the computer says, cows can't read. You've got to actually go out and see what the cows are telling you, not what the computer's telling you, because a walk around those cows will usually tell you plenty before you've even done anything else.

Kelli Hutchings

Because the cows never lie to us. They will hold our feet to the fire. They never lied to us. Um but yeah, so I think through the journey, you know, there were times when obviously the first bullet thrown, if anything went wrong on the farm or any of the farms that were, you know, bringing down their pellets, that was the first initial scapegoat. Um, but if you ask the right questions and step back and look at it, 99% of the time there was something else that had happened in that barn that had caused those girls.

Andrew Jones

I'm just confirming the conventional uh cows there just on a full TMR as well. There's no pellet fed through the parlor there.

Matt Strickland

Correct. And yeah, that was something I was just gonna say is we had the luxury of not not only comparing these non-pellet cows to their own herd that was on pellets, but also to a you know, a full herd right across the driveway that you know that that was on just a TMR, right? So what there was a lot of times too, we'd see things, you know, numbers decline in the robot dairy, and you know, then we'd go, well, what's what's the conventional herd doing? Well, they drop they drop by two pounds too. So, you know, it's it's an environmental thing or it's a feed thing or or whatever, right? So we had the we had the luxury to to make comparisons a lot of different ways between our two herds.

Sarah Bolt

So Kelly, I'd be really interested to hear if you're happy to share with us which would you say were the top KPIs that you were really monitoring sort of through this period.

Kelli Hutchings

Oh, and Matt'll jump in and help me because I'll I'll forget some, I'm sure. But obviously visits to the robot, um production, like Matt said, uh, which is directly correlated to visits to the robot. Um fetch list size, maybe that was a contributing factor, but there's so many other things that can affect that that I don't know if we tracked that one as much. Um obviously dry matter intake and like Matt had mentioned, components. What else am I missing, Matt, that we were watching through that journey?

Matt Strickland

Uh there are a few things along the way that people would bring up. Um kickoffs, incomplete, um, incomplete, incomplete milkings, things like that. Um it would always kind of I always kind of laugh when people ask this question. They'd say, Well, your incompletes have to be higher and your kickoffs have to be higher. I said, Well, why? Well, because what are they gonna do if they're not eating while they're in the robot? And I go, Well, what do they do in your parlor when they're when they're when they're milking? They just stand there and milk. That's all they do. Um, but so we started tracking that and and there was no differences. You know, a lot of it, again, because we're a you know we're not a university herd, we're a commercial dairy herd. It was, you know, it was dollars and cents. It was it was money, it was return on investment, and and it was you know, feed efficiencies and income over feed costs and all that stuff. And that was kind of the stuff that um that obviously means

KPIs That Matter And Profit Impact

Matt Strickland

the most to me, and that's why we did it was to save money. So we you know the biggest thing that we saw was um an increase in income over feed costs uh by about 80, 80 cents a cow. Um, and that was that was static income over feed cost. So keeping everything the same, you know, prices the same from the year before, but the differences in the production um, you know, the current year we were doing it. And and that's to me where it made sense. And you know, we if we had a few more fetched cows, it was well worth it because we're getting a lot more money and the cows are making a lot more milk. Um so yeah, that was kind of the main ones that that I focused on. But a lot of the other stuff was you know, kind of what the robot world told us we should we should look at.

Sarah Bolt

Just just to match their own expectations as to what might be the case.

Matt Strickland

Yeah. Visits was the big one, incomplete. Um again, yeah, like Kelly said, fetch list, we would we would monitor well, did the fetch list get bigger or smaller? But there's there's so many things that can play into why your fetch list will be bigger or smaller. Number one, we always said your fetch list is what you make it, how aggressive you are at fetching cows will determine is your list big or small. You know, um, you know, you can set different parameters to where you're you're gonna fetch a lot or you're gonna fetch a little. Um, you know, the other side, if you have a robot breakdown and we're you know, we're running about 62, 63 cows a robot. So they're they're we got a lot of cows that we got to milk. So if a robot goes down, they get behind, your fetch list is gonna be big. Um, you know, it you have a feed truck breakdown and and it doesn't get the feed delivered on time, your fetch list is gonna be big. So there's just you know, fetch list size is just one that's so hard to put into a box.

Kelli Hutchings

Well, and I wrote down another one. I I wrote down another a couple ones that we would look at. Um, box time was another one, time in the box. Because again, like Matt mentioned, everybody said, well, our incomplete would go off, our kickoffs would increase because the girls would be, you know, anxious or jittery in the box. And then time and area, we have the ability with the Daveau system to monitor time and area. Um, and that was another thing that everybody said, well, the the girls are linger in a certain area because they won't have the motivation to move. And we didn't see those KPIs were not affected like everybody assumed they would be.

Andrew Jones

So you you've switched those, you say after dry uh after they've recarved, you switch feeding those pallets to those cows. How long did it take them to adjust? Because there must have been some period of adjustment for some of those cows. Was it some cows ended up back in the conventional system? Um, but I guess you had no pellets there either. So I mean, how how long has it taken you? And I mean, I guess I don't know when that was relative to today, but how where are you now on that journey? Is everything pellet-free now through the robots? We're currently everything is pellet-free now.

Matt Strickland

Um and how long's that taken you? Since we start uh we started this well, bringing in the fresh heifers without pellets. We started January 1 of 2023. And our last cow with pellets, we just dried off um, I believe in October. So um coming up on you know, two and a half to three years is what it took us to wean them out altogether. And saying now we're officially pellet-free. Yeah, yeah, now we're officially pellet free. Um, as far as you know, those cows adjusting, um, I don't know that I could put a time frame on it. I mean, it seems like some cows take off right where they left off and other cows don't. Um again, a lot of those were older cows because this has been. So long, and how we did it, some of those are third, fourth lactations now. And along with you know being old comes more problems, right? So, you know, is she a little bit lame or is she, you know, got some health issues, or is her teeth placement not right? So some of those cows are just, I think, would have just weaned themselves out of the herd anyway. But I I don't know that I could say, well, that it takes her two weeks to adjust or three weeks to adjust. I think most of them, you know, maybe they're a little disappointed in the beginning, but I don't know, they they they take off pretty quick. And we're not moving, we're not moving too many of those over to the conventional herd. Um most of them, most of them stay in those older cows, they they adjust pretty quick. If anything, more of the cows we move over are heifers that we either don't do a good job on training or um we kind of just run out of space and we have more return cows coming. So we want to put cows with more milk in there, and we move the heifers over to the conventional farm and we call that the permanent fetch dairy. They get fetched three times a day.

Sarah Bolt

So in the UK, um, we would often use the KPI of daily liters through the robots, as well as um sort of the number of cows on that robot. Would you know how many liters you're putting through your robots a day?

Matt Strickland

I wouldn't know in liters, but I know in pounds. Or pounds, yeah. Sorry. We're kind of ranged between um five to seven thousand pounds.

Sarah Bolt

I'm not very good at the math, so I'll have to are you any good at doing the math for that uh we'll sort it out.

Andrew Jones

We'll sort it out. Uh well pounds, but uh say per kilo, that's 2.2 pounds per kilo, isn't it?

Sarah Bolt

And you can say kilos and liters, yeah.

Andrew Jones

So but I mean what um uh what is the herd's overall production in the robot and your conventional dairy just as a comparison now?

Matt Strickland

Right now we're about the same. Um we're we're running about 94 pounds on both herds. Um uh that yeah, that's what it that's what it is today. Um we're we're a little disappointed. We do think we should be outperforming on the robot herd. Um so we're trying to you know figure out exactly why. Um we've recently made some adjustments in our uh milking permissions. We kind of found um some issues that we had um with the permissions we were on for a while. Uh so we made some adjustments and we're seeing some things increase. Um, but that's that's real recent. That's just over the last probably six weeks we've been playing with that. Um so again, there's so many factors in what comes into play on robots that you know sometimes sometimes it takes a while to figure out what's what's the issue.

Andrew Jones

And did I read now, tell me if I'm wrong, that you've seen improved fats through the robots as well since you've made this change?

Matt Strickland

Yeah, yeah. So we our energy corrected milk um jumped up, I want to say it was between two and three pounds from 2023 to 2024 when we weaned off the pellets.

What Motivates Cow Traffic Without Feed

Matt Strickland

Um and currently our our butter fat is higher on the on the robots than our conventional herd. Um this past month we were, I believe, like a 435 on our um robot herd and like a 425 on the conventional herd. So we're we're a little bit higher um butter fat on the on the robots than the conventional. Um so energy corrected. Energy corrected, we run about a pound higher on the robots than the conventional, but flow is about the same. But but otherwise they are on the same diets. Yeah, exactly, exact same diets. And they're milk, so we milk on the conventional herd three times a day, and we're running about 2.5 milkings on the robot herd, so they're not getting milked as much, and they're making just as much, if not a little bit more, of energy corrected milk.

Sarah Bolt

That's really interesting. I was expecting you to say that the robotic and milked ones would be milking more than three times a day. So that's that's really interesting in itself, because here we'd probably be averaging sort of three, three and a half milkings through a robot, Andrew.

Andrew Jones

I think that's probably not far off, right?

Matt Strickland

You know, I I don't we don't see many robotic birds here in the States that run three plus. Um most of them are in the two and a half to two point nine. I two point nine would be a lot.

Sarah Bolt

Maybe I've got it wrong then. Maybe I've got my the wrong in my in my head.

Matt Strickland

The the other thing could be I think it seems like Laley's, there's probably a different in philosophy between uh Lely and D Laval. It seems like Lely herds sometimes milk um milk a few more times a day um than D Laval herds. I've kind of heard that thrown around out here. Um a lot of Lely herds milk three, three point one, but D Laval kind of runs in that 2.8 to 2.9, and I think it's kind of a philosophy of stocking density, maybe the amount of cows you're trying to milk on a robot. Um you know, if we're if we're milking 40 cows a robot, we'd probably be milking them 3.1, 3.2, but we're milking 62, right? And and and I'm not sure that's what Laley's strategy is. That's just, you know, I'm just kind of rolling the idea through my head.

Andrew Jones

Well, I mean, that's one of the arguments of the whole guided system, isn't it? Is you can get better throughput through the robots because the fact that you're the guided system, they have they are sorted when they want to come to the robot, they are pre-sorted, and if it's too soon, they're swung straight back round into the beds. Um, whereas if it's time to milk, they go into the milk. Whereas of course with the laleys, and I'm not trying to say one's right or wrong, with the laleys, they sort them in the box at the time, don't they? So you don't quite get the same throughput of cows because there's time taken up. Um, there's what's the term not involuntary, but that there's time taken up being in the box being used to sort the cows, whereas with the de la Vale, the guided system, the sorting's already being done, hasn't it?

Kelli Hutchings

Yeah, and I I think that's probably one of the biggest misunderstandings that I hear as I travel the country, uh, you know, different color boxes, whatever, is understanding the facility design. When when you ask those questions about KPIs, we're we're not comparing apples to apples. When we compare numbers in a free-flow barn versus numbers in a guided barn. So understanding the facility design. And then again, my mountain to die on is always understanding cow behavior and what motivates her to move through the facility. And in our case, in the guided systems, we're we're we're using that TMR, we're using her natural instinct to seek out feed and water. And I know people get tired of me saying it, but I'm I'm gonna get t-shirts made. Water drives dry matter intake, dry matter intake drives milk production and you know, front and back. So understanding the facility design and understanding what motivates the cows to move through the facility helps us better understand the differences in the KPIs that people report. Yeah, that makes sense.

Andrew Jones

We've talked about guided and unguided system here, but uh am I correct that um I mean, has anybody tried this from a free-flow system? Or my understanding is the recommendation is this this really wants to be a guided system if you want to try this uh pellet-free cake or pellet-free robots.

Kelli Hutchings

Yeah, right now, obviously, we've proven um that it that it works in the guided and the modified guided systems, uh, whether they're commingled commitment pin or toll booth uh layouts in that. Uh I know of one free flow system that has successfully gotten their girls down to three to four pounds of pellets. But I I'm gonna reserve judgment on whether or not it would work in a free flow system because, again, that is a motivator for the girls to come to that box. Uh, a lot of people think it's because of that utter pressure. And I had a discussion with a producer on Monday about that. He's absolutely convinced that that's the only reason his girls come is utter pressure. And I, you know, his farm his way. But, you know, we've got videos of girls standing out in the the feed alley or or the bed alley leaking milk because they know that feed truck is going to be there in 30 minutes. And and that's what they're waiting for. So as of now, I don't know of any free-flow facilities, but I I do know of a few that are coming down on their pellets.

Andrew Jones

So, Kelly, what do you think motivates the cows or what what drives them to make this system work?

Kelli Hutchings

It's obviously, again, like I said over and over again, it's working with her natural instinct to seek out that feed and that bunk and that high quality forage and that highly digestible TMR is what guides her through that system. That's what motivates her through that system so that we don't have to go out and manually motivate her, i.e., fetching her.

Andrew Jones

So, Matt, what's in your diet then on that case? I'm guessing is it alfalfa and and corn as the main components for the forage?

Matt Strickland

Um mainly corn silage. Uh we have some wheat silage. We do have a little bit of alfalfa K and not as much as we used to. Alfalfa's been pretty expensive um in California. So we we kind of minimized alfalfa in the ration, but we have uh wheat hay in there is the other forage. Um and then we you know, we we have a lot of byproducts in California. We're able to feed almond holes, um canola meal, soybean meal. Um we have whey from a cheese plant. Um we do utilize a little bit of alfalfa. It's alfalfa and wheat hay that falls out of a chaff, uh, or it's a chaff, it falls out of a press from an exporter near us. So we're able to get that feed, that hay at a little bit of a discount. Um, so we kind of feed we feed that to our milk cows. Um that's that's kind of it, but it's mainly corn and wheat silage and uh wheat hay and and a little bit of alcohol is what makes up the forages.

Andrew Jones

Okay, a few

Final Advice And What’s Next

Andrew Jones

different from over here, but we all understand what it's what you're doing, um, definitely. But uh I'm sort of looking at the time and thinking it's time we start wrapping this up. So uh let's start with you, Kelly. Any last words of wisdom of of what we've learned from this that uh you think people should know?

Kelli Hutchings

Oh, I I could have prepped that better, but don't be afraid of change. Don't be afraid to try something. And then, you know, I always go back to listen to the cows. They will tell you if you're making a right decision or a wrong decision for them. And no two herds are alike. And patience is a virtue if you're trying to decrease the amount of pellets through your robot. I mean, we've proven we can start them up without it and they don't know what they don't know. But if you want to look at this strategy and bring them down, you have to be patient. Um I have to say it has to be a guided or a modified guided right barn right now, until proven otherwise. And then obviously we need everything in the bunk, everything in the TMR, all her nutrient needs in that bunk to make it successful.

Andrew Jones

Yeah, because just a thought I've had, just to clarify, you're not feeding any kind of liquids or anything like that through the robots at all, are you, as an enticement? There is absolutely nothing going through the robots.

Matt Strickland

We we use robots to milk, not to feed.

Andrew Jones

Yeah. And Matt, any last words of wisdom from yourself?

Matt Strickland

Um Yeah, I I think on top of what Kelly said, um, know your data, um, know what you're looking for in the data, be able to interpret it. Um, but also keep your robots maintained. Um you'll get wonky numbers and and the the data gets hard to read if if your robots aren't working correctly. Um and you know that's a that's a big part of the of the system, obviously, and you want to make sure it's it's working correctly. Um so be able to interpret your data, know what the cows are telling you, and keep your robots working this to the best of their abilities.

Andrew Jones

Just thought of a quick question for Kelly, you know, obviously more than other people are doing this other than Matt now. What's the biggest herd and smallest herd you've got using this system with no pellets?

Kelli Hutchings

Uh with no pellets, biggest herd is eight robots right now. Um, but there are more and more robots are going in that are just choosing not to put in the feed system. So uh there is a 20-unit barn that will be firing up here soon with they they they're not even installing a pellet system. Uh they they've seen what we're doing. Um so eight robots and 500 cows. Yeah, and smallest? Smallest would be um the Canadian guys up there in Ontario, they have just embraced this wholeheartedly. So one robot is the smallest.

Andrew Jones

I just think it can be done, it no matter what your herd size, it can be done. Yes. Um Sarah.

Sarah Bolt

I'm just loving the thinking outside the box and not just following the herd. And I think it just begs the the statement as to every farmer should question everything they do and why they do it. And uh perhaps we'll see uh different things coming out of it. And I think you've gone to prove that uh that this uh this is something that can be done, is great for the cows, and uh yeah, great, absolutely fantastic.

Andrew Jones

No well, I'd I'd uh like to say thank you to you both. This has been an absolutely fascinating conversation and one I've been uh say very keen to have ever since I first heard Kelly. Um I I I just think it's so outside the norm for this country, and it I just think it creates I think some interest, I think, because of that, because it is different, and everyone thinks you must feed cake through the robots and you don't. And as I say, so often I the the few robot herds I've had anything to do with usually sort of feed up to 10 kilos, and and to me in my head, I'm like, why? Because it's it's slug feeding again, it we should be TMR, it should be all about the room and health, and and you know, it can be done. I mean, I I conventional dairy, I had a client retired now that that's what we did. We just failed a full TMR and uh it worked and did cast did really well. Um, so you know, very much an advocate of that because it's about the room and health. You get good room and health, a lot of things follow. Um, so no, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you both and uh really enjoyed it. So thank you very much. So otherwise, I guess it's a goodbye from me.

Sarah Bolt

It's been a pleasure speaking to you both. It's a goodbye from me. All right, thank you, guys, team here.

Matt Strickland

Thanks for having us on. We appreciate it.

Andrew Jones

Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the ChewintheCud Podcast, podcast for the UK dare industry brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness, or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Limited. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of ChewintheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Limited, visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye.