Podcast Live - Herbal Leys: From Science to Farm

Herbal leys can feel like a contradiction: you pay for a carefully chosen seed mix and then it refuses to look the same from month to month. That’s exactly why we wanted a proper, practical conversation about multi-species swards, not the brochure version. Recorded live with a panel of specialists, we dig into what actually happens in the field and how to manage herbal leys for UK dairy systems when the weather turns extreme and the rotation plan stops behaving.

We start with trial insights from Dr Jo Matthews on how different species contribute across the season, why plantain and chicory peak at different times, and what resilience really means when drought hits. We also get into the detail that gets missed: tannins from birdsfoot trefoil, mineral profiles in individual species, and why “more species” only helps if something can persist under your grazing or cutting pressure. If you care about soil health, drought resilience, livestock health and cutting purchased fertiliser, this is the kind of data-led context that helps you choose with confidence.

Then Becci Shrimpton brings the agronomy reality check: soil testing before seed choice, pH and P and K targets, seedbed and drilling depth for tiny seeds, and why weed control is mostly a pre-sowing job because broadleaf sprays can wipe out the mix. Ben Richards rounds it out with a farmer’s view from Cornwall, running a 100% forage, organic, once a day milking herd on herbal leys, explaining grazing covers, residuals, rotation length and why he avoids hammering the sward.

 This podcast was recorded in front of an audience, and once our guests had made their initial presentations, they then took questions directly from those in attendance, asking real questions relevant to farms today!  

This was recorded in February 2026, and all information was correct at the time of recording.  

If this sparks ideas, share the episode with a farming mate, subscribe, and leave us a review so more people can find ChewintheCud. What’s the one species you would add to your next herbal ley mix?

For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast, or on Facebook and LinkedIn as ChewintheCud Ltd . You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com.

Transcript

Welcome And Live Recording Notes

Andrew Jones 0:14

This is the Chewinthe Cud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the south west of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to Chewinthe Cud Podcast. My name's Andrew Jones, and with me as usual is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt 0:39

I'm very well. Thank you, Andrew, and how are you?

Andrew Jones 0:41

Yeah, I'm not too bad. It's one of those unusual ones we're actually together in person for this.

Sarah Bolt 0:45

It's unusual for intros to be recorded face to face.

Andrew Jones 0:48

It is, isn't it? It is. So um today's episode, well, it's the other half of the podcast live event we did back in February. So this time we're talking about herbal lays.

Sarah Bolt 0:57

It's a good one, isn't it, Andrews?

Andrew Jones 0:59

I think so. I think so. The only thing I will just warn people, and it's me being a bit over cautious, is unfortunately the joys of technology, we didn't, or I didn't discover until I came to edit it that my microphone dropped out. Uh it was working and dropped out before we actually as we were doing the intros before we actually started the podcast. Um so I've had to use a little bit of AI magic and some of my own to pull my voice out of the background of the other three mics. So I sound a little bit tinny in places, but overall it's not too bad.

Sarah Bolt 1:28

It's really not too bad at all. I think you're probably very conscious of it, and I'm sure most listeners won't even notice.

Andrew Jones 1:33

Well, and to be honest with you, our guests are the most important people, and they they sound absolutely fine. And, you know, listening back, there was some, like you said, it's very practical. There's some really good tips now that I've forgotten about until I was listening back. So yeah, it's well worth a listen.

Sarah Bolt 1:47

It's definitely timely as well.

Andrew Jones 1:49

Yeah, that it is. So on that note, we'll let you go take a listen.

Sponsor Message And Listener Links

Andrew Jones 2:00

This podcast has been brought to you today by ChewintheCud Ltd, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition. Our signals advice and training along with ROM's mobility scoring. For more details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on nutrition @chewinthecud.com. ChewintheCud Ltd now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website www.chewinthecud.com or email us directly on training @chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones.

Sarah Bolt 2:48

And I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones 2:49

And welcome to the ChewintheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt 2:54

Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.

Andrew Jones 2:59

We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.

Sarah Bolt 3:05

We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself, can it be done differently?

Andrew Jones 3:09

Listen to us speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise.

Sarah Bolt 3:16

Subscribe and listen to episodes for free on your favourite podcast platform.

Andrew Jones 3:20

Sign up to our website, www.chewinthecud.com for podcast notifications so you never miss an episode.

Sarah Bolt 3:27

And links to our socials, including Instagram, chewinthecudpodcast. All one word and remember, no G.

Andrew Jones 3:34

Or email us direct on podcast@c hewinthecud.com.

Sarah Bolt 3:38

If you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support. And that's it.

Andrew Jones 3:43

Enjoy today's episode.

What Herbal Leys Are Really

Andrew Jones 3:56

Hello and welcome to ChewintheCud Podcast. Today, today we're going to talk about herbal lays. Now, most people might think they're something new that's been pushed the last few years, um, particularly with SFIs. But looking back at some research I did before we recorded this, some of the origins of modern uh herbal A's probably stem back to the 1950s. I think that would be correct. But um also for many of us, there I say the older members of the audience, we spent most of our lives being told to kill the non-grasses, the plantains, the chicories. All those weeds. Yeah, they were weeds, they weren't what they were supposed to be. However, now uh we have uh incentives to grow these mixes, undoubtedly financially mainly, but also in terms of maybe looking at soil health, other things from there. But what is the best way to do that? How can we make the best of these when herbal lays can change day to day, month to month, year to year? They are not as programmable as maybe as a straight ryegrass mix, and therefore the management of these can be somewhat difficult. And and love we're talking about herbs um uh or potential weeds. I mean, I certainly remember my grandfather talking about, I think was it plantain um as being fire weed and caused um fire in the haze? So we're here to talk about herbal lays and trying to get the uh most out of them. This is the second of our podcast live events. So we have a panel of three experts with us again. So I'll make a brief introduction um to them all before we then uh talk to each of them individually. So to start with, we have Dr. Jo Matthews, who is technical trials manager from General Seeds. Hello, Jo. Hello Jo uh has previously been a guest on the podcast in July 2024, showing us around um her trial site, up at Melksham she runs a site there, and today we'll be talking about the scientific evaluation of herbs and legumes for grazing. Following Jo, we have Becci Shrimpton, who is uh technical seed sales for Horizon Seed stroke Grain seed. Hello, Becci. Hello, Andrew. Um, and uh Becci's here talking about getting herbal lays right, soil species and management. This is uh more talking about the agronomy of uh herbal lays. And then following Becci, we will have Ben Richards, who is a dairy farmer down from the Lizard Peninsula in Cornwall. Um hello Ben. Afternoon. Um now Ben is a uh spring-carving once-a-day herd down in Cornwall with no supplementary feeding. Um he feeds entirely using forage, primarily herbal lays. Um and so he's here to talk about working with herbal lays or forage. So before we do that, then let's talk to each of our panels uh um individually.

Trial Insights On Species Growth

Andrew Jones 6:43

So we start with Joe. Hello. Hello, obviously we I've been in the past uh up to your site in Melksham and looked around various different bits and pieces up there, including a um was it, stoloniferous red cover? That's the right word, isn't it? Yes, it is, yeah. I got it right. So really, herbal nays they've changed somewhat, probably in the last few years, haven't they? Or they're coming to focus, I should say, the last few years. So what can you tell us from what you do? Ultimately, you breed the varieties that come through to then be used at a farm. What have you seen change? What is happening for you on your trials from I don't know five years ago to where we are today and coming for the next five years?

Jo Matthews 7:27

So I have to say that I never thought ever that I'd be talking about multi-species as much as I do now. Um, they've definitely become an increased focus, um, and the diversity of those lasers changed. And we uh there's an awful lot of data that if you look around, you can find lots of literature from New Zealand, you can find it from different parts of the world, but actually how much of it relates to kind of the UK conditions. So back in 2018 was the first trial we put in, which was really simple. It was just different varieties of chicory, different varieties of plantain, and trying to track what the growth curves were of each of the species were and what the different qualities they actually brought to a sward. And then over years it's become slightly more complex, um, as these things tend to do. Um, but what we've done through kind of replicated small plot work is uh kind of drilled, tried to drill into what's happening within each of these swords. So everything against a perennial ryegrass backbone as a control and a perennial ryegrass and white clover, and then kind of increasing the complexity uh throughout the throughout up to what the mixture I call the kitchen sink, which has got 16 different components in. I know it very well because I separate it three times a year, every year, and then can work out exactly how much biomass comes from each element.

Andrew Jones 8:52

Species is dominating us, because as we said, that they change from month to month, year to year, don't they, in terms of what's dominating and what's not in there.

Jo Matthews 9:00

Hugely. Um, absolutely. They they don't look the same. Um, I would say one minute to the next, but they are slightly more consistent than that. You know, early season, you've got the grasses five degrees, pronoun rye grass starting to grow, that really kind of dominating that really early season grass. And then is or early season sword and as you move through the season, you get kind of clover dominance, clover starts at eight degrees. So then as you progress through, you see that coming to fruition. So um the herbs that you see early season, mainly plantain, um, that kind of can compete early season with the um perennial ryegrass. Um, and actually a lot of the New Zealand material indicates that it's the shoulders of the year, the spring and the autumn. Our data that we found really indicates that we don't see it that proliferically putting loads of biomass into the autumn. That's is that right?

Andrew Jones 9:53

Because that's something I've always been told is yeah, uh a mixed species layer will add the shoulders to the season.

Jo Matthews 9:58

Oh, undoubtedly it will, but it's not necessarily coming from the plantain. So actually, what we've got is we've got big clover dominance in that part of the season. We don't see it in in terms of plantain, majority of the plantain is all in the early, early part of the year, and then you get kind of chicory mid-season. Chicory tends to stop growing at 11 degrees. So actually, you you see that kind of kicking out, and because of its deep roots, you really see that in the midsummer when you're expecting drought, particularly with how at that point of the year perennial ryegrass or all the grasses have gone into reproductive growth. So they've largely stopped growing or putting in put a large amount into leaf biomass, and other species at that time are really starting to come into their own, which is where you see the yield overall total yield benefits from um more diverse uh mixtures.

Sarah Bolt 10:54

So tell us a little bit more about um some of these 16 um different species within the uh in the mix. We've obviously got different grasses, legumes, and herbs, or forbes, as some people call them. Can you talk us through sort of some of the basics?

Jo Matthews 11:08

Um yeah, so I have to say that what we did with the trials was we were kind of progressed the complexities, we kind of went the ones that I tend to call the major um herbs, so chicory and plantain, and then we get kind of secondary or slightly smaller ones like alcyc, um not alcyc, like bonette, knapweed, yarrow, sheets parsley, and that kind of thing. Um, and then we also diversified the uh legume components, so we've got trefoils in there, birds foot treffle, black medic, looser, not looser, and we had samfoin, the lesser spotted samfoin, because on my type of soils, we don't tend to see it proliferating or surviving. Um so what sort of soils does samfoin not like and what does it do? It doesn't like wet feet. We're a clay, the trial site is a highly fertile site, um, and it's silty clay loam over a very disgusting yellow clay that could make some excellent pots, but that's about as far as it should ever see daylight. Um, and that does mean that we we have a very short window, as some of my colleagues say, there's about five minutes in Wiltshire between uh between flooding and drought. You know, it switches very, very quickly. So it's actually a really good site to test some of these concepts out and see at what time for years um these different species can actually assist or put on significant amounts of biomass.

Andrew Jones 12:33

So uh for I'm so have you trialed different ratios of um between the grasses and the herbs and the legume?

Jo Matthews 12:40

Yes. So we we tend to try one thing at a time, assist this kind of slightly uh OCD science nerd in me.

Andrew Jones 12:47

Got to there, haven't you? Because you've changed too much, and often you know what's working.

Jo Matthews 12:51

Yeah, well that is true, and yeah, I try to rein back some of the ideas that come in. But no, we have we've we've played with different ratios of chicory and plantain and see how that affects the dominance within the sword and the persistency of the sward. Um, we've also done work with um tall fescue, meadow fescue, cox foot, putting those into the mixture, how that affects the openness of a sword, how uh resilient it is, and also the persistency as well.

Andrew Jones 13:20

I mean, take last year as an example, a bit of an extreme year.

Jo Matthews 13:25

Um we seem to have more of them.

Andrew Jones 13:27

Well, yeah, fair comment. But what were your potential outcomes from that maybe you weren't expecting? Did something persist far better than you ever thought?

Jo Matthews 13:36

Um for the first time ever, I saw a lot of birds for trep oil. And we don't tend to see that as an a as a persistent, it tends to be quite a small, little, lovely little flat little thing, but it doesn't seem to ameliorate most biomass. Whereas actually, in that really difficult conditions when we didn't, when we were at severe moisture deficit, we actually had a green burst for trefoil flowering away quite happily and persisting. Whereas the rest of the year, if you looked at the previous five or three years data, you wouldn't have seen that that birds for trefoil contributed one percent to annual biomass. So it is interesting.

Andrew Jones 14:16

What was it last year that?

Jo Matthews 14:17

So at that particular cut we did, it contributed 10% of the biomass.

Andrew Jones 14:20

Oh wow, quite different.

Jo Matthews 14:21

So it was a big, big swing compared to what we've seen in other years. And that's where some of this resilience of having more species comes from, is that at different times year under different conditions, they're offering some buffering capacity.

Sarah Bolt 14:36

So, what does birds fit truffle really bring to the party? Is it a good ME? Is it tannins? Is it what what is it that birds foot truffle can bring?

Jo Matthews 14:44

Tannins. We're really interested in the tannin content, tannins for a couple of things, anti-bloat. You've also got um impacts on methangenesis and just looking over about methane production and have tannins got a potential solution for ruminants when put into a forage, into a diet.

Andrew Jones 15:04

I'm sorry, I'm just saying you usually go to worry about not having too much tannin in the diet.

Jo Matthews 15:09

There's there's levels. So the birds foot traffic was a really interesting one in that actually, if you look at the breed, the population and you look at varieties that are available, there is there's kind of a spot within it. There's different, yeah, there's different percentages when you can confer benefits, but you aren't getting the anti-nutritional components that A, because nothing you can get some varieties that you could test and you think that has amazing potential, but nothing will eat it.

Sarah Bolt 15:36

So sort of perhaps a step in a different direction slightly, but um when say a farmer's looking to purchase uh a herbal lay, is do they have a choice of a variety of different different varieties within those within those species these days?

Jo Matthews 15:55

Well, that there tends to be quite a limited supply, if I'm being completely honest. Um, but there are people like myself or different other researchers that are looking at different mixtures or on different varieties and assessing what they feel is most appropriate. We we did some the early work we did with chicory and showed that actually we had a different chicory growth profile with two different varieties. So now we

Drought Buffering And Tannins

Jo Matthews 16:20

put those together in a blend so you get the best of both kind of coming to fruition. So there will be ongoing research um looking at what's available and potentially breeding things that are felt to be bringing the best characteristics forward.

Andrew Jones 16:35

But you're saying like um we're getting more of these extreme years. I'd say that's where some of these mixtures do come in, because I'd definitely see it. It wouldn't have been last year, but was it 2022, 23, something like that, another dry year? And I remember going to see a client and they had filled the just grass and it was dead or looked dead, brown, not a lot there. But you went into this field that had a herbal lay, then a mixed species lay, and you just had bundles of when you first walked in, all you could see was just bundles of red clover. And then you got down in there and you parted the red clover, and under there was this little microclimate, everything was still green because the the clover was was maintaining that moisture, and everything was still there ready to go. So as soon as they got the moisture, that lay just sprung back into action because it was ready to go. Whereas the one with the grass is going to take a good couple of weeks before it even went anywhere because it was sat there looking effectively dead.

Jo Matthews 17:30

So there's there's two things, and we get quite a lot of farmers and groups coming around to site, and I say there's a difference between drought resilience and there's surviving going into a drought and persisting for longer and giving you mouthfuls and bites for your stock. And then there's ones that don't come back. So quite often some of the ryegrasses they kind of go into dormancy, they shut down, they look crispy, they've almost gone into survival mode, they've put the white flag up and said, I'm just, I'm just sitting here until we get a rain event. And then you get species like red clover, really deep taproot. Um, and they tend to grow longer into a drought. But then what you sometimes see is if you don't get a rain event, you they will have been weakened because they'll have used all their energy reserves. And if you look at the populations in the following year, you will find that a lot of that clover has actually red clover may well have disappeared. White one of the biggest reasons for loss of white clover out of a sward is actually drought. Because white clover still continues and it at what point it does stomatal closure is variety specific. And also it's one of the it quite often grows longer, and then you lose the cover coming out. And we particularly saw that in the data from the 2022 to 2023 year. We saw a completely different sward makeup post-drought event, because uh a significant drought event than when we get short snaps.

Andrew Jones 18:58

Which which makes sense. You say that they're going as far as they can until they just give up and that's it. But I mean, where's the research now compared to where it was? I mean, I guess you said we started with not a lot and it's a lot more complex. Where do you see it going moving forward? In five years' time, we have the same conversation. Where do you think it will be?

Jo Matthews 19:17

Well, we've we've looked at work on nitrogen work, nitrogen levels and implications that has on persistency of species and also on sword overall biomass and how much extra yield it it you can potentially achieve with um under those diverse conditions. We're now looking a little bit more about like what you were discussing earlier about that herbal lay, about longer growth grazing and how that impacts soil temperatures. So we've got soil probes in, looking at surface temperatures and seeing whether or not by maintaining the length of the sward, whether or not you're creating that microclimate and it shelters the soil and gives a bit more of a protectant effect. So that's where we are at the moment. I hate to have to think about that because my father was telling me that for many years, and I told him he was mad, and now he's back in fashion, or may indeed be correct. Um, so and I think there will be ongoing progression. I think there are species that are being looked at now: chicory, plantain, um, different breeding programs that are moving away just from the pure mainstream.

Andrew Jones 20:28

So, do you think we'll have effectively a niab list for chicory or planting in the way we do for different ryegrasses and other grasses?

Jo Matthews 20:36

I think that's a long way from because that's a that requires a lot of official testing and a lot of um investment. But I think that breeders will be trying to improve um different species for um UK conditions.

Sarah Bolt 20:53

So one of the arguments for not putting in diverse species swords is the fact that you're never gonna get the milk um from a diverse sword versus a ryegrass sword. What can you um enlighten us with? I love how he's laughing beside us. I know, I know. Obviously, Ben's gonna Ben's gonna set us totally right, but from from the breeding, from the breeding point of view, what what have you found?

Jo Matthews 21:20

Well, actually, what we found, and it's something that's often overlooked, is is when we think of legumes and we think of clover, we just think of protein. We don't actually think of how energy dense the ME content of these of these um small legumes. And they bring so much to a sword overall. And they also, with all of these swords, they all bring different contributions in terms of the mineral profile, in terms of ME, um, crude protein. And that gives an animal, I'd say, a better overall resilience against challenges. Um, you see it with examples of work from in Ireland. Um, with fecal egg counts on lambs and things, you see an overall more healthy animal is able to withstand more challenges. Um, and there's some very good qualities can be held from some of the species that are multi-species lace.

Andrew Jones 22:16

So what you're saying that they have value because I mean to some people, I'm gonna say the older generation again, it's the field of weeds, but really they are something that has benefits, not just purely you're looking at feed value, but you're looking at it from a more holistic point of view in terms of what it offers in terms of minerals, in terms of health, in terms of well-being. And I know myself I've had clients that will say yes, they find more milk when they go on them. Um, but I guess it's that that the difficult thing is is they need to be managed differently.

Jo Matthews 22:54

They're a challenge.

Andrew Jones 22:55

Yeah. I I mean, I'll be honest, when they first started coming more in profile, uh more, yeah, more profile again, you know, the first people that looked at it that I found and thought the people that would go with them were the spring carbers with the grazing boys. But most of them, once they looked at it back to way, because it wasn't that 21-day rotation, it was a 28 or whatever, it was out of sync. It just wasn't manageable. But it is manageable, isn't it? It's just different management.

Jo Matthews 23:22

It's just it's just different. And you have to accept that they don't look the same in January or in March or in three years' time. And and that's the biggest challenge I see to them is is when you're looking over the hedge, as we all do, amazing roadside agronomy and roadside farmer watching, um, because I am one, uh, and you go, Oh, I don't know about that. And I mean, we've had farmers drive by and go, Why are you growing all those docs? I'm like, chicory, chicory, just letting you know, definitely chicory. Um, and they are different, and they and it's I can't speak so much for the dairy sector. There's a gentleman here who knows far more than me. I speak from beef farming and growing young stock, and we found it's really valuable, but it is an it is accepting that they look different. They may not look as pretty as a perennial riguas ward, um, but they do bring value, particularly in mid-season when you're coming up against a potential drier period of time.

Establishment Starts With Soil Tests

Andrew Jones 24:26

Thank you for that, um, Joe. I think now we'll we'll move on to Becky, who's here basically to talk to us about the agronomy of um herbal lays. So I suppose the first place to start is what should we be looking for when we're looking to sow a herbal lay and how should we choose what we're looking to put in?

Becci Shrimpton 24:43

As in species or species. Yeah, so um when you're looking at species, um, most herbal lays consist of grass and herbs and legumes. So the grass will give you your yield and your ground cover, and your herbs will give you your um rooting depth, um, some benefits to the animal, and your legumes will give you your nitrogen fixing, so it will lower your input costs and add it as protein.

Andrew Jones 25:12

But in terms of so I want to go in okay, then usually they I've always told uh if you've never grown a herbal lay before, Ben may contradict this in time, but uh just go and buy a standard one off the shelf, uh wherever your seed supplier is, grow that for a couple of years, and then work out what doesn't doesn't work for you, and then maybe make a more bespoke one. But we'll put that aside a minute. You've got your herbal lay, it's ready to sow. What should we be doing? I don't know, maybe if you've got a weed problem to start with, what should you be doing to start with, your seed bed, all of those sorts?

Becci Shrimpton 25:47

So I would suggest actually, Andrew, that you choose the herbal lay last, or it's one of the last decisions you make. There's a lot to do before you choose the seeds. Um, so it's all about so for me for me as an agronomist, I'll get a phone call from a farmer and he says, here, my herbal, I've planted my herbal lay and it ain't growing. And so the first thing I do is I'll go to the farm and I'll say to him, So what were your what was your soil sample results? Well, I haven't done any soil samples, he says. Excuse the accent, but I come from Devon. So he hasn't done any soil samples. So how does he know what he's dealing with?

Andrew Jones 26:27

Under red track to knowing what every three, four years. Three to five years.

Sarah Bolt 26:30

Yeah, farming rules for water.

Becci Shrimpton 26:32

Farming rolls for water and for SFR, you've got to do them anyway now. And most milk contracts um expect you to have your organic matter as well. So if you're doing them every five years, then you'll know what's going on. But for me, you know, the foundations of any crop is your soil. That's where everything starts. So you've got to know what your pH is, what your P and your K is, um, magnesium and sulphur. Standard source. It is standard, but you'll be surprised how many farmers don't soil sample and then they plant their herbal lay expensive real 25 quid for the whole lot, 25 to 30 quid now for a full full sample. But you'll be surprised how many people don't know, and they just plant a crop, expect it to work, and then they want to work out why it's not growing. So my advice is is to to test your soil first. So you know if you've got your pH right. So for clovers and for herbs, it needs to be six to six and a half, six point five. Um, anything less than that, and your clover won't do what it's supposed to do, it won't be fixing nitrogen, it won't be performing, and your the herbs don't like acidic soil either.

Andrew Jones 27:46

Um what happens if you're the other way, you're an eight.

Becci Shrimpton 27:50

It's not, I mean, it's not so you don't get many eights. I do a lot of soil samples. You get them in the sevens. Um, dairy farms sometimes have, and if you're on the chalks and that, they can be quite high, but it you're better off being alkaline than acidic for herbal A's, 100%. So then you need to start looking at your P and your K. So you need P obviously for your rooting, phosphate, and potash you need for clover persistence. So if you want persistent clover, you've got to make sure those levels are right. And if you need P and K, you need to think about how you're applying it, what fertilizer you're gonna buy, when you're gonna put it on, that sort of thing. So those are all the things you think about first.

Andrew Jones 28:31

Kind of seed bed, similar to a grass speed bed.

Becci Shrimpton 28:34

Fine, firm speed bed and roll it.

Andrew Jones 28:37

Because of course we've got some very small seeds in it.

Becci Shrimpton 28:39

Very small. So as a rule of thumb, two times the size of the seed depth. So if some of the herbs are really, really small, so you don't want to be drilling them too deep because they'll just struggle getting back up.

Andrew Jones 28:52

Yeah, exactly. So it's it's just don't run too deep.

Becci Shrimpton 28:55

That's right.

Andrew Jones 28:56

So what would be the best way to drill them or broadcast them?

Becci Shrimpton 29:00

I would say, yeah. If you can't. Well, it depends what machinery you've got. There's some pretty good kits out there now that can drill stuff.

Sarah Bolt 29:07

What if we don't want to go in with the plough? Have we got some options for sort of over sowing or anything?

Becci Shrimpton 29:15

Overseeding is a bit of a controversial one with herbalays, isn't it? Um, because there's a whole load of factors that you've got to consider. You know, what have you got there? Um They're small seeds, so you can't just drill them into a lay and expect it to work. It's it's there's so many variables.

Sarah Bolt 29:34

Because it's quite difficult for farmers that are on some of these uh contracts that require sort of regenerative type practices and so are going down the herbal lay route and then sort of effectively being penalised for ploughing. So it's trying to find that balance for everybody, isn't it?

Becci Shrimpton 29:52

Yeah, definitely. Um a lot of people are on SFI, so they've put in CSAM3, so they've all gone into these sort of um schemes because they're getting so many pounds per hectare back, and they're just sticking herbal lays in willy-nilly without really what system are they growing? Is it cutting, is it grazing, you know, what what are we gonna do about it? They're just sticking it in and hoping for the best, and then you know, it doesn't work out.

Andrew Jones 30:19

But though you say pick the seed last, but are there different mixes or grazing compared to cutting in the same way you do with grasses?

Becci Shrimpton 30:27

Yeah, most seed suppliers um will have cutting, grazing mixtures, and they'll have, you know, the sort of Tesco Valley version or the weight chose version, you know, and you've just got to kind of am I allowed to say that?

Andrew Jones 30:39

Well, supermarkets are available.

Becci Shrimpton 30:42

Um but yeah, I mean it's and you don't necessarily have to have a bespoke mixture, you can make your own up. So you can look, like I say, you know, you look at like Jo was talking about with all her child data, you know, look at what's gonna benefit your system and have a mix made up specifically for that.

Andrew Jones 30:59

And your soils. Yeah, and your soils. Because there's no point. I've forgotten which one Jo said it was, but samples. There's no point trying to grow those legumes if they're not gonna they don't like wet feet and you're in clay soil.

Becci Shrimpton 31:11

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the other thing to mention, Andrew, is about the structure of the soil. So we're you're talking about cultivations and things, but you really need so a lot of people will plant a herbal lay and expect it to just fix compaction and give them a wonderful structured soil. But that's some herbs won't put roots down through compaction sometimes. Some do, but you want to make sure that you're really looking at the fields you're going to put the seed into. Um, look at if they're lying wet in places, think about whether you've got a subsoil first and break the compaction up first, give it a start, you know, give it a helping hand. And then once you've got a good structure, you've got the worms, you've got the rhizobia bacteria, you've got the microbes all doing the work for you.

Andrew Jones 31:56

And should you put any fertiliser on it to give it going?

Becci Shrimpton 32:00

So as a rule of thumb, if you've got an established herbal lay and you go and look at it and you've got a good percentage of clover or or legumes, I would say no. Some people will put on um a small sort of trickle of nitrogen in a cutting regime. But actually, if you put on too much nitrogen, it will you'll lose the benefit of the clover because the clover will shut down.

Andrew Jones 32:28

More in terms of seed beds, but why is there anything you should choose?

Becci Shrimpton 32:31

Yeah, I mean, nitrogen always helps at the start. Clover white clover specifically needs a bit of nitrogen to get it going. Um, and obviously, if you need your PK, you could put in something, you know, I hate to say it like a 2010 or something, just to kind of give it a kickstart. Yeah.

Andrew Jones 32:48

Yeah, okay, okay, depending on the soil samples and the advice. Exactly.

Becci Shrimpton 32:52

Exactly. Yeah. Whether you need some lime as well. So I mean, the thing is with with any crop, you can't j like I said, you can't just put in hope for the best. If you get all these factors right before you plant it, you're de your hands, you are in the hands of the gods.

Andrew Jones 33:10

You've got to give it the octal chintz.

Sarah Bolt 33:13

Exactly. You've got all the things right to start with, yeah. So is it sort of going for best practice for for resowing a grass lay and uh a little bit more just just that attention to detail as much as possible?

Becci Shrimpton 33:26

Yeah. I think having preparation and and knowing what you're gonna do and getting all your ducks in a row, you know, you you've got half a chance. You know, don't drill it into waterlogged soils, don't drill it in a drought. It needs some moisture.

Andrew Jones 33:40

What about weeds? Because unless there's very so nicely says you're growing ducks. Uh if if if if you do have ducks or something in there, what's the best thing to do? Try and if you know you've got a bad field, obviously off before the reeseed. But what happens if you then got a seed bank in there and more of that stuff comes back? Given that you've

Weed Control Limits And Ley Lifespan

Andrew Jones 34:00

got the variety of plants in there, what herbicides, etc., will work?

Becci Shrimpton 34:04

There there isn't anything, excuse me, that's safe on on a herbal lay because you'll kill out something that's in there.

Andrew Jones 34:12

So even like a clothed safe spray.

Becci Shrimpton 34:14

Not as cleared, really. No.

Andrew Jones 34:17

So so really if you want to do any weed control, it needs to be before you even start now. Put a clean um field to start with.

Becci Shrimpton 34:25

Yeah. So stale seed beds. So basically, when you've done your cultivations, you'll usually get a flush of weeds, try and take them out, give that a couple of weeks to kind of die off, and then start with your reseed.

Sarah Bolt 34:38

You don't want to use uh chemicals, can you just accept that there's going to be some docks and perhaps some of the things that you don't want to see there?

Becci Shrimpton 34:48

So, I mean, if you plough, you're gonna you're gonna bring up things like that anyway, because docks seeds will last for 30 years in the soil. The main thing is to get all of these things right so you get good establishment, and that usually tends to smother out the weeds. You can always go in with an early light graze just to kind of nibble down some of the weeds that have come up through, like chicory, uh chickweed. Yeah. So there are ways to do it, but you know, by year two or three, there are you there is usually a bit of a weed burden.

Andrew Jones 35:20

But how long would you expect uh a good establishment to ask?

Becci Shrimpton 35:25

In a c in a grazing situation, up to four or five years. But they're not permanent, you know, you want to plan a herbal lay as a rotation around the farm.

Andrew Jones 35:36

Yeah, so four or five.

Becci Shrimpton 35:38

Four to five years. Less for cutting, really.

Andrew Jones 35:40

Okay, for cutting what, three?

Becci Shrimpton 35:42

Three, yeah.

Andrew Jones 35:43

Any reason why?

Becci Shrimpton 35:44

Because you're more of the species because you're cutting it harder, more of the species will lessen, you end up with more grass as a rule anyway.

Andrew Jones 35:52

More open.

Becci Shrimpton 35:53

Yeah.

Andrew Jones 35:54

Okay. I think if we move on to Ben now.

Sarah Bolt 35:57

I was gonna say it takes us nicely to bend, doesn't it? It's sort of what happens in practice,

A 100% Forage Herd On Herbal Leys

Sarah Bolt 36:02

Ben.

Andrew Jones 36:02

So yeah, come on, Ben, down in Cornwall. Now now tell us a little about yourself. Because I mean you you met once a b, what's his name? Is it Frank Newman? Yeah, Mr. Toronto, yeah. Uh, and things like that. And as I say, that a lot of the work and you were nodding when I said it from what you mentioned his name, so I looked him up from modern herbal lays, then maybe goes back to his work in the 50s. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about what happens on your farm, and because I from what I'd been told, Joe's saying her 16 species isn't enough as far as you're concerned.

Ben Richards 36:31

Um, well, I've I've sort of went about it a different way. Um I want the herbal aid to provide absolutely everything the cow needs. So I didn't use any veterinary, I didn't use any there's no supplementary uh anything, any supplement coming on the farm in any way is in that min. Um it's 100% forage. So the herbal A has to provide everything the cow needs um and has to provide production. Um I still will sell milk to make money, but um the that I need to grow everything that the cow needs to eat. So um we've progressed over the last 10-12 years. Um we went organic in 2020. Um you know, I'm I've learned quite a bit over that at that period of time. Herbal aid me now, especially in an organic situation. Ryegrass is a pain in the neck. Get rid of it. It will hold you back. It it stuffs the whole herbal layout. So I have many of ryegrass in my uh in my mixes for what grasses do you use? Um cocksfoot, Timothy, tall fescue, meadow fescue. Um ryegrass. Smooth smooth stalk meadow grass. Um, but this tall fescue and uh cocksfoot are probably the predominant ones in Timothy. Um I want the deep rooting. We're all in clay similar to to Joe. Um so the the the tricky and the the planting, the real deep root deep rooting herds are getting the water table down so we're we're a lot more resilient to summer dry. Um so yeah, it's working. I've got an easy life, basically. The cows don't get sick, we don't get, you know, they're not under pressure.

Andrew Jones 38:10

Well, how how we mentioned your one state screen carving, how many and what sort of yields are you getting up?

Ben Richards 38:14

Yeah, we're we're we knocked numbers back in 23 when they crash the price. Um we're building back up again now, so we're about 170 to cow this year, but we'll be back up at 200. Um in the next year or two. We're um you know, good year they do 3-2, 3-3, but we're we're running 10% look full as average. Um in a bad year they're 2-8, 2-9.

Andrew Jones 38:37

But uh I guess for want of a better word, little grazing rats.

Ben Richards 38:40

Yeah, well they're they're 400 kilo cows. Yeah. Um they look after themselves. Exactly. They do what they want to do. Yeah, exactly. I mean, my little 400 kilo cows, they've got deeper bodies than these uh old steam cows. Um they just got shorter legs, basically. So they're they're forage machines. Uh and uh yeah, the the less I interfere with my cows, the more I let them behave in a natural way, the less issues I get, the better but they're sure I get.

Andrew Jones 39:07

So you say let in the nayswear uh a natural way, sorry. How do you graze them? Do you strip graze them, paddle-graze them, mob graze them?

Ben Richards 39:13

Um mob graze, paddle-graze, call it what you like. I mean, I've I've I've come into the herbal lays. I went to New Zealand in '97. I ran a New Zealand um white brass white clover system for 10-15 years. You know, 200 units plus a nitrogen going on. Um getting 420, 430 kilos and nooks, always at the cows. Uh fertility issues, lameness, basically all the problems you get when you when you push cows, because they were being pushed. Uh so I basically took made it a life a lot easier for the cows. Um, and as years have progressed, I've seen what happens with the herbal lays. Uh, you just all the inputs just disappeared. Didn't we done eat them?

Sarah Bolt 39:57

So can you sort of take us on your journey? You first decided you were gonna put in some herbal lays. Where did you start? What did you put in to start with?

Ben Richards 40:04

Um 2014 um we went in with the first herbal A. And uh I'd read all of Newman Turner's talks by then. Um Did you just explain who he is a little bit? Frank Newman Turner is uh a herbalist. Um he was a pacifist in the Second World War. He got put onto a farm which he basically trialed everything and had his dance here at Somerset. He's in Somerset, yeah. Yeah, um, Goose Green farm as it's called. Um extremely intelligent math. Um and just went about things very practically. So his mantra is at the cow decide, which I think is your real thing cows, that's that's what you should be doing. Um so he he puts in stands of all the herbs, just puts in stands all over the place, like alongside a a robo or a cow track, and just watch the cows, see what they wanted to eat. So you know, he he would say you have ten different herbs and rate them on one to tail on popularity with the cows, and that was to be the the the cost of treasure in the mix.

Andrew Jones 41:05

Yeah, so for example, if they're having more plantain at a ratio two or three compared to chippery or whatever, that's what you've got money, it's a sort of plant they yeah.

Ben Richards 41:13

And uh it's it's it's not it's about the soil as much as it is about the cow. So well it all starts with soil. Exactly, exactly. Um I mean we come off chemicals in about 2016, um, but the soil needed a bit of nursing back down forget after, you know, 30, 40 years of chemical feeding. Um so a lot of the species, again on Urban Turner's recommendations, were put into they weren't put into production or necessarily cow owls, they're put into sword house.

Andrew Jones 41:43

So did you follow his recommendation for him? He didn't just go and buy uh a standard one off the shelf for whoever you followed um um you and Newsberry, yes, circummit.

Ben Richards 41:54

And obviously goose green up here is a lot different than the heavy landline forming. So you don't know what herbs are gonna grow. So I just whacked them away. I had 29 in the first um mix, 29 different species, and uh chuck them all in, and then when it's in what group? Um some of the seeds were ridiculously expensive. Um they didn't grow. So I've just seen the same fortune going forward. I know they're not gonna grow. So I'm not gonna buy it. So it is well uh they've progressed over the over the years. I mean when mixes now there's probably still 15 and 20 species in it. And I've been reduced different herds over the years. Again, three different inventors, anything weird, a one for the maybe my uh king in the usual mix. Fanal, fanugreek, um wild cart, dandelion. You know, I've I've actually had an off-ball that didn't have any dandelion on it. I spoke to Jim and uh he told me what it was gonna cost me to buy the seed, so I spent three days then harvesting dandelion across on the other buck of land. Uh and uh, you know, to me there's if a cow don't eat eat something, it's a weight. Cows will eat pretty much everything if it's if it's produced in the right way. Docks aren't a problem to me. We've got less docks now when they are conventionally farming, and a cow's eater.

Andrew Jones 43:17

So, you know, they're nutritionally quite dense dogs. Well, that's what I've always been told is if it were something I've been told in house, if a caramel is looking for a dog, it's usually because she's not feeling 100% and she's going looking for minerals because the tap root has gone down looking for minerals, and apparently they're quite uh energy dense as well, they might be dilled. Very much so.

Ben Richards 43:36

Uh but that's again, as Newman Turner said, let the cow decide. Let the cow lead you, not you lead the cow. Uh if you've got cows that like dogs, why would you want to get them get rid of them?

Andrew Jones 43:47

So, in modern terms, I mean that was done in the 50s. Has there ever been any work done that you know of on um what Newman Turner's recommended in terms of maybe some scientific data to book it up, or is it uh back in Up, sorry, or is it all his uh what's the word you tonics, wasn't it?

Ben Richards 44:03

Yeah, I really would use the word tonic for most things, and that's all we would ever say. So this verb goes in because it's got it's a it's a tonic to the cow. So it's it's quite good list uh looking at Joe's list of of what um different herbs are doing uh old face elements. Um I'm just doing it to see the pads. I've got no science to back up anything I've done. But the results in how skin for you is working out sick. Yeah. The cans are healthy, I've got cows that are doing 10-12 lactations without pattern eyelids. Uh like you said, we dick, they don't get sick.

Andrew Jones 44:36

We don't have issues for. Do you have any veterinary usage on farm? Uh TV tested. Yeah.

Ben Richards 44:43

And uh we have to not basically I said back earlier when they do the TV test, is the little tiny little meat on it that goes into the cow. My cows, man, they go nuts. I absolutely hate it. Because no, it does use it, right? It's not used to it. Uh yeah.

Sarah Bolt 45:02

Ben, I'd just like to pick up on something you said about soil remediation. Um, it's something that you hear about from a maybe pollution point of view and using plants to remediate polluted soils and the like, but we don't talk about it in agriculture. It you just sort of made reference to it there, that the first few years you put in certain plants to get rid of some of those chemicals that were in the soil. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?

Ben Richards 45:27

Yeah, I mean, you we're um we're about organic matters, we're probably around a five, six percent, we weren't measuring them at the time. Um, but it was there's compaction, there's there's there's the soil

Grazing Residuals And Rotation Reality

Ben Richards 45:40

where I wanted it to be, there from populations where it was good. Um see sweet yard labour is a prime example, and I was telling what to put it in because the cows don't eat it. Cows eat it. No problem. Um, you know, I'm I'm putting I could do certain in. Um certain don't grow on heavy soils, it grows on mine.

Andrew Jones 46:00

Um Is that though because you said it helps keep your wash table down so it's not having to have wet feet?

Ben Richards 46:05

Yes, I think it is. Um and uh we've noticed we don't get surface puddling even in the winter. Um and we would hang on to production, we can do three, four weeks more, at least, maybe even six weeks longer, of of grazing before we we start having any issues.

Andrew Jones 46:23

You've gone down for the grasses you mentioned as well, are all deeper rooted grass, got me. Yeah, very much so.

Ben Richards 46:30

And it yes it's because you've got the deep root in, you've got uh such a uh a deeper depth of soil that you're utilising, and your ryegrass isn't utilising very much. Um and when you're tracking nitrogen on, it doesn't need to, does it? So your ryegrass to me is is uh yes, okay fuel, your cows and milk off it, but they won't be healthy on it. Which is fine. To me, a ryegrass system, you're s you haven't got the choice, you have to supplement. Which, you know, if that's what that's the way you want to farm, that's fair enough. Um but it that wasn't for me. Um I want the soil that to feed the plants, to feed the cows, and everything needs to work intrinsically and east so it searched, yeah. Without me having to go in and buy something because I don't like spending money.

Sarah Bolt 47:17

What's the biggest management change you've made, really, maybe from a grazing the cow's point of view on your herbal lays versus your old ryegrass lays?

Ben Richards 47:28

So I'd if if we got a new herbal lay going in, I don't go near it until it's it's above the me land for the first grazing, and the first grazing, I'll take it to this door down to the top of my boots. What we're now doing is so old. Waste time going in until the soil temperature's rising, and you need good soil temperature herbal lay. Um I found in my experience you need it clean. You don't need competition for the plant. We always we'll roll it before we put the plant, before we put the seed in, and I put the seed top the ground. So we'll pre-roll and then let's just chuck the seed on top.

Andrew Jones 48:02

Ring roll?

Ben Richards 48:03

Uh well I've got one of them, so I've got a flat roller, so we go on with that. Um I'll identify the field in the autumn, put my pigs in there through the winter, and then go in in the spring.

Andrew Jones 48:15

Add all peeves, mix them up.

Ben Richards 48:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so they'll they'll go in, um, they'll get rid of any residual seeds that are in the ground. So you're cleaning your paddock at the same time, you're cleaning out your your hedgerows, um, they do a bloody great job. And then you get into the spring and we'll go up there and maybe chip it off and just to germinate any wheat seeds that are there, and then you will go in and seed it. But um we're usually on it within six weeks of planting.

Andrew Jones 48:42

So you know we buy in April.

Ben Richards 48:44

Yeah, well, end of April, early May. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Jones 48:46

On it sort of ginger.

Ben Richards 48:48

We'll be on it mid-June. Um, but you can't you can't take it down too low. Um, plantain and chicory, especially, they've got to have leaf to keep going.

Andrew Jones 48:59

Um And that's the thing I probably notice as people is we're talking earlier with Joe, it's change of management. Because I've seen people try and graze like ryegrass and take it down too low, and it opens it up or opens it to weeds. It needs to be managed, it needs to not be grazed as tightly as a as a traditional ryegrass. What and you you'll increase your production, Alishman.

Ben Richards 49:20

If you if you graze it right, i.e. not hammer it down. I've been I'd still learn it. There's still a lot to learn on herbal days, and that's what makes it interesting, really. But we had b on paddock owner, it was grazed exactly as how it should be graze, and we'll we got two more brazings off that field in the in the grazing season. Um well, two more grazings, that's that's a fair uh a fair shelter.

Andrew Jones 49:42

So I don't know if you ever did, but if you were to say like you traditionally talk about a ryegrass going in at what 2800, 3,000 coming out at sort of 15, 16 kilos. Yeah. I realize it's not directly comparable because of what's in there, but if you were talking to a grazer in those terms, what would you go in at and what would you come out at? Oh, we'd be going in at 4-8 and pulling them out with 2-8. Okay.

Sarah Bolt 50:06

So are you are you measuring with a plate meter or have you managed to sort of plate meters don't really work on herbal rays?

Ben Richards 50:12

I'll say that's completely different, isn't it? Yeah, it is. So you you you have to be fairly on the ball. If you're grazing animals, you know roughly how much they're gonna eat. But if you know there's there's not a full feed in that if you if you you captured your feed your cows in a pallet without overgrazing it, you move the cows. Um so I'm quite happy I'll go move cows town of flop in the evening in the summer, no problem. Quite nice about a laptop in there.

Sarah Bolt 50:37

So it's much more sort of the holistic management grazing plan than a rotational grazing plan almost.

Ben Richards 50:43

Yeah, well we're we're still we're on like a 45-day ramp. Um extended. Yeah, was we all guy, and it it's that's to me that's about the right round lay for it if you want to really manage the herbal lay well. And we get back to low 30s in the pick growing times. Um but we're still only grazing it down to to like to my to eight mandates and more.

Andrew Jones 51:07

Switching from You said rye grass and white clover to the herbal lays, what to you was the biggest change you had to get your head around? The fact that you extended your grazing or something else?

Ben Richards 51:22

Um It's trying to get your head around not nailing it. It's definitely a hard part. Um if you've got cows to feed and the only option you've got is to nail it, unfortunately I'm still doing that. Um needs must. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's just the way I work. I'm not gonna go out and buy a load of concentrate or a load of wheat feed or something like that to to extend my rotation. I'm organic, so I'm not gonna go out and put nitrogen on to try and boost growth. So it's you've got to be planning a lot further in advance to try and make sure this doesn't happen, where you you get to the stage where you have to nail them out because you don't got nothing else to feed your cows. Um but um they're easier to manage than raw grass. Once you've got your head around them, you've got such a big window of nutrition with a herbal lay, you go in it at 5,000 cover, and the cows will milk just as well as they would if you went in at 3,000 cover.

Andrew Jones 52:17

Well, it's just some of the grass, isn't it? Because I know that yeah, is it the sort of the soft leaf tall fescues and that, isn't it? Is they don't cry freaks the energy, but they don't drop off in the same way like the rye rass does. Once it's hits seed, it just drops off, doesn't it?

Ben Richards 52:30

Yeah, it does, and and it rye grass will get stressed as well in in in drought periods. Your cot's foot and your fescous don't, they'll keep growing. And because you're leaving ground cover on the herbal lay, the soil temperature stays down in a drought period, and you still maintain moisture on the top level of your soil. If you net out a ryegrass ward, you've exposed all your soil and you just blew, you know, you're going on a backfoot pretty quick. Um, so it's easier to manage, but you just have to once you put your head around it, I think, than ryegrass by major. Um once you've got a fourth leaf come around the ryegrass plant, you're losing milk production.

Sarah Bolt 53:08

Uh but you don't get one over all I was gonna say that was gonna be my question as to, you know, sort of we've a lot of us have been drilled into us that ryegrass three leaves, whereas actually all of these other grasses, they don't that first leaf doesn't start finesting at that point in time, and and we get much more biomass at the top, which obviously equates to biomass in the roots as well, and doing all the right things in the soils.

Ben Richards 53:33

It's yeah, it's um it's it's life's a lot easier. Brybars, you be you would be mowing one day and then you're you short grass the next. Oh, because the nitrogen or not, nothing's great. Oh, pardon me, we've got briberies and our ears. We've got to cut some more. And then you're in that cutting, feeding bales, but just to balance your milk at black on supply out.

Andrew Jones 53:50

You don't get that with herbal aces leaving the pallet.

Questions On Inoculants And Minerals

Sarah Bolt 53:54

So does anybody have a question they'd like to start with or come on, you you you gesticulated at me, so uh it's probably probably for you, Jo.

Jim Juby 54:08

Um establishing a herbal a um herbal ace in a in an environment, let's say an arable environment, for instance, which hasn't had any legume history, would you consider inoculants being of benefits to herbal ayes, or would you have you looked at anything like that?

Jo Matthews 54:25

Have I spent hours and potentially weeks of my life squashing nodules? Yes, I have, Jim. Um so I had this, I I did a PhD in legumes and cover crops into an arable system, and actually we did look, we had a very small look at the effect of an inoculation and how much that improved. Or and we were using native, we were using um basic, not fancy clovers, not things from all over the world, you know. We weren't looking at Lucerne, which we expect to need a specific rhizobia, but we were looking at white clovers and that kind of thing, and we did put, we did look at the difference between putting on a specific rhizobia and native fixation and native levels. And what we actually found there was a significant difference. There was a significant difference in the amount of active nodules on the plants. There wasn't there was a difference in the number of nodules, and there was also a difference in the amount of nodules that we're fixing because unfortunately I had to squash each one.

Graham Weeks 55:36

Andrew, I just um wanted to ask on on minerals. Where in the herbal that lay situation do the minerals come to to make it sufficient for the cow for the cow to exist? So that's for you, Joe.

Becci Shrimpton 55:50

No, I'm you. Yeah. I'm having a bit high kick here, actually.

Ben Richards 55:54

I mean, I I was I was spending three or four grand a year on minerals. And uh I was looking at the minerals, I was thinking, hang on a minute. Half of these the cows can't even digest. They can't absorb them. It's just a salesman flying in the gate trying to flog your minerals. Well, depending whether it's a sulfway, whatever they might need. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But surely it's better for the cow to be able to get the minerals from a natural source that you can digest. Um I didn't know. I didn't have a clue.

Sarah Bolt 56:21

So I sorry, so I'm gonna I'm gonna come in here because I do know where they come from. So what happens is that the soil all starts working properly, and the microorganisms in the soil start breaking down the minerals um in the soil to actually release all of those minerals, and that's what starts happening, isn't it? It's those biological processes that actually start releasing them that then the plants are able to pick up on.

Andrew Jones 56:46

And Joe, you've got some data as to what does what I'm getting.

Jo Matthews 56:48

I have. I've got this lovely little graph that no one, this lovely little table. So um, yeah, as part of what we were looking at when multi-species, we actually have individual monoculture swarms that we're cutting and we're testing them every cycle of rotation for mineral content. And what we've what we've actually discovered is is there are minerals that are accessible by certain plants that weren't accessible by the grasses, for example. Um, sheet's parsley has the most phenomenal iron content. Who knew until I did this work? I did not. There are there are definite things, some of the chicories put because the deep rooting is pulling up minerals from below. But one of the biggest things we found is when I look at my soil analysis and I look at my leaf tissue analysis or my mineral content, you can see the parity. You know, there is a certain amount of it's not there from the breakdown of my rocks. So actually, it may not be there, but there are definitely um extra minerals and um a different mineral content that is accessible by some of these plants that isn't accessible by the grasses.

Sarah Bolt 57:58

And I guess some of that will be to do with some of that, like the the microbial or the microfauna in within the soils that actually different roots will be attracting different microbioterum and all sorts, and therefore different availability is my guess. That's just still to learn. It's there's so much, there's so much to learn, isn't there? It's so much fun.

Andrew Jones 58:20

Ben said Newman turned as all tonics, wasn't there?

Ben Richards 58:22

Yeah, he was, yeah. Um, but again, you trust your cow. Um, she knows what she needs. As long as she can access it, she will sort herself out.

Andrew Jones 58:31

Well, I've all seen cows do Pika and go looking for soil or whatever they need. Yeah, looking, don't they?

Ben Richards 58:36

Yeah, I mean, we've got um going once a day milking took the demand off the cow. Um twice a day milking, you're stimulating the cow morely because she can produce an actually forest-based diet, and in my opinion. Um, if you're gonna milk a cow twice a day, generally going on, you have to supplement in some way, um, whether with minerals or extra feed or anything else. Um but as the I've like said I was spending three or four grand on bloody powder minerals. I thought that's far too much money. So I cut them back, never started using uh mineral bowlers. Um then I killed a killed an effort with putting a mineral bolus down the throat, so I'm using them the more. So we went on a mineral drench and uh milk price crashed. Mineral drinch cost me 800 quid. I thought I'm gonna use nothing. Never seen any detrimental effect with the cows.

Graham Weeks 59:26

Yeah, and that was to do with you going off once a day, Milky, or when you were on twice a day?

Ben Richards 59:32

Um I was still giving them a mineral, uh we were having mineral supplementation when I was uh milking twice a day. And once a day, we we pretty much dropped it all out. Um and we weren't, you know. The cows have got healthier since then, as the soils have come white and the herbs are are allowing them to access everything they need.

Andrew Jones 59:52

Um I don't want to justify there more a bit with Joe. Um you mentioned the trials, and obviously you're cutting for to test what these ones have. Well, as we've said, the grazing um period is longer between grazes. Are you is your trials instead of cutting every three weeks, cutting longer in these multi-species lows?

Jo Matthews 1:00:13

So we're doing both. We're actually we've got um what we now call a short and a long. So we've got your 21 to 28 day rotation, and then we've also got 42 to whatever it may be if my mass is going to hold up. Um, and so we're looking at the differences, and um, we have the the long grazing is on taller covers, it's on um, and we've got this marvellous tool, it's not a cow because I they poo in my trials, and I'll make a mess. Um, we've got what I call a hoofer, so I've got the effect of the physical trampling of the stock on a machine that we're passing across to try and beat up the swords.

Andrew Jones 1:00:51

Is that new? Because I don't know there's nothing there when we look around.

Jo Matthews 1:00:53

It's my new fancy thing, yes. Um and and it and it's trying to it, we have we can't have livestock, we admit that to try and make the trials more even and get better uh results, but equally it's giving a little bit of an understanding of how the physical physical soil properties are will change between a short-term, um a short defoliation taken quite down quite tight on your traditional kind of um graze out and one that's on a longer to a longer um length sword and taken on a much longer period. And we're just going to be able to see the differences between those two.

Ben Richards 1:01:31

With the the trampling side of it, you you've got your deep, real deep brooding herbs that are pulling a load of minerals up. If your animals are trampling them, the minerals are coming out on the leaf. So that leaf matter then is deposited on the top of your topsoil, which then the house is memorized a bit accessible by all the other plants. And so that the whole system sort of pulls together as far as minerals go. And I don't know, do you agree with that one, Joe, or not us?

Jo Matthews 1:01:56

Well, it's actually something we are looking at. So that is part of so there was a very big um sweep of soils before we went in, and we still have the simple lays in there and then the complex lays. So we're able to look across all of them, and then four or five years' time, we've got the ability to then compare across and see if we could see any significant differences in not only in chemical profile of the soils, but also in terms of worm count, in terms of porosity, in terms of all of those things that we talk about and we hear from multi-species or herbal lays, can we actually

Seed Supply Mix Quality And Value

Jo Matthews 1:02:34

prove it? And that's the bit that I try to do.

Rick Swait 1:02:38

Uh, question for Becky is seed availability. Uh, the country's gone from growing virtually no herbal lays to everyone growing. Um, how's the industry coped with such a change in demand from nothing to tons and tons and tons, especially of the spices?

Becci Shrimpton 1:02:58

The spices. Well, so far we have coped. Um, I think the seed industry are very good at uh reacting to the market as well. Um, you know, there's lots of breeders producing these these varieties and things, and so far there's not really been shortages.

Jo Matthews 1:03:16

Clover's a pick. Um that's a technical topic. Um there is weather events all around the world. Um, and you know, there's I think we grow red clover on every continent in the hope that somewhere we don't get a failure or we might get some.

Andrew Jones 1:03:36

That's why the rest of the world.

Jo Matthews 1:03:37

Yeah, because it is um, it is at that harvesting time, it is really critical on weather, and that can then cause a slight constriction in supply. But it's yeah.

Becci Shrimpton 1:03:49

Yeah, I think because because they're not there's not a recommended list as such, you can go to various places and get seeds. Um, it's a bit more tricky with the shorter term grasses this year. I think hybrids and shorter term grasses are gonna be in short supply, aren't they? But um, but in answer to your question, um the seed industry, yeah, they're they're pretty, pretty good at sort of forward planning and working out what we're gonna do. They're they're planning, you know, a year in advance for for this sort of thing. And and we don't know what's gonna happen with SFI in June, but we need to know, we need to be in a position to be able to um provide whatever farmers are looking for.

Andrew Jones 1:04:28

I mean, following on Raph, I guess the one boy stick to my head over talking about SFIs of GS4s. There are mixes and there are mixes, and it's knowing what you were, because I remember where I was working at the time, uh all my bosses came in and said, Oh, my clients brought this GS4 mix or whatever the price was. How's it compared to what we're supplying? And I sat down and worked it out, and he was like, I can't remember something like three, four, five pounds an acre difference. We were more expensive. And he said, Well, why is that? So we sat down and looked at it in greater depth, and I can't remember it didn't have either red or white clover. I can't remember which it was supposed to have, whereas ours had both. And you looked at the grass varieties, they were all no longer on the recommended list grass varieties. So if you want to make the most of it, you should be using your recommended lists, you should be looking for the most productive species off that list. And really, as you know, okay, it's more difficult with a multi-species leg. But if you look at the difference in uh straight ryegrass, in terms of the energy available from the top to the bottom of a coverage, intermediate ryegrass I worked out for, it's a phenomenal amount of money. So, really, I know it's easy for me to say, well, it's not my money, but an extra couple of quid per acre on your seed, actually, you'll get massive benefits or from it moving forward.

Becci Shrimpton 1:05:51

Yeah, Andrew, and I think if you're looking at what you're planting a herbal lay for and all the benefits that it brings, it's worth spending a bit more. More money in having those things within the mixture, really thinking about it, instead of just cutting corners, as you say, and having varieties that aren't on the list.

Andrew Jones 1:06:09

I mean, they're

Making Haylage Without Wrecking It

Andrew Jones 1:06:10

obviously there at one point, but they've been superseded by better varieties. That's why we have the list that we do.

Becci Shrimpton 1:06:15

We do.

Andrew Jones 1:06:16

Um, a question for you all from me is what is best practice to make good hail size with herbal legs?

Ben Richards 1:06:25

We don't tend to cut them if we can help it. Um I've got some tree grazing I've calling over the last three years, but I don't like fencing them, they're a pain in the neck, so we have cut in between. Um again, you want to keep your bar up so you're not taking the crowns out of your herbs. So you want you want to be leaving yay. Um I should say that's what, three or four inches? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, that's that's at least nine inches, that is. Um so yeah, we would um let it mature, let it flower, and uh so we were cutting in between the three rows when we took that off now, probably end of May, I suppose. Um mow it in the afternoon, rake it and bail it the next day.

Andrew Jones 1:07:13

You weren't leaving me, you didn't find because I mean uh basically one that makes you think of is two things that made me think of is obviously those leans don't wilt as well as a ryegrass or a grass, so probably want a bit longer. And I suppose the shoulders aren't there to go with it. So Joe's obviously waving, so coming.

Jo Matthews 1:07:29

Well no, I wasn't waving, I was just doing my impression of a leaf shatter. Um, I mean, we we have on the farm at home, we have some cutting herbal lays, um, and they're swinging into the arable rotation um for various reasons. Um and we don't have chicory in that in that sward um because I've unfortunately attempted to bale chicory before and ended up with these sort of stalks, doesn't rapid just sort of punctures. Um there's gone too woody, yeah, and it it will just puncture the wrap if you're not careful. The other thing it does is if you cut a chicory stalk off, you get a hollow stem, and that hollow stem is then the perfect entry point for the water, and then it rots out. So, from all of that perspective, that's why we choose not to have chicory in our um grazing um cutting maze at home. Um, the other thing, yes, the mow, we've got to keep the mower up a bit, red clover, any of those kind of things, legumes in that sword, and make sure we're not doing any crown damage. Um, and then the big thing we try to do is um still rake when it's a little bit damper, so we're not getting the leaf shatter. Yeah, so we don't get that leaf shatter, and we're very gentle now we pull it across.

Andrew Jones 1:08:47

What about additives? Because I've always been told anything that's got a heavy amount of clover should have an additive in there because the clover is acting as a buffer and is not allowing that rapid drop in PA. So you should be using an additive uh for any of those sorts of um sizes.

Jo Matthews 1:09:06

Well, we're gonna we're gonna be because a trials person, we're gonna be experimenting on that this year, and we did do a couple of clamps differently to see what the quality is gonna be like when they're coming out. Um, and there's also, I know we you've discussed you're not a particular fan of perennial ryegrass. I quite like a strong perennial ryegrass backbone to give some of those sugars to try and kind of stabilise the fermentation a bit because you can have quite wet, low dry matter silage, and you do need that kind of stabilization.

Sarah Bolt 1:09:38

And I guess that's the difference between Ben mainly grazing his and you saying what you want in a cutting mix. Exactly.

Ben Richards 1:09:45

It's um if I've got surplus grass and I'm gonna have something to cut, I'll target that surplus onto the older herbal lays where it's more grass dominant. Um and uh one of the reasons for that is you that you know, like you just said, you get better fermentations, more grass in the bales. Um, and I can bank up cover on herbal A's, which are gonna give me the younger herbal days, which are giving me better milk production. So uh it's management. Yeah, basically. I mean herbal A give me more milk, so I don't want to be cutting that. Um, you know, we're we're dry the cows off in uh early December, and don't start milking weekend till March. So I've got no need to make high quality silage, a little bit of carrots through in the autumn, but it it's not a critical part of my

What Changes From Year One

Ben Richards 1:10:29

system.

Sarah Bolt 1:10:29

So I've got one um that uh I'd like to ask is what should we expect to see differently in a herbal lay from year one to year three and beyond?

Jo Matthews 1:10:42

And so quite often year one you see herb dominance. So I think uh across our mixtures, 63% of the total first-year annual production chicory implant. By year three, that that had reduced to 8%. And that was there was no plantain left at that point. And the rest was from the chicory. There was and you and what we actually saw was I thought the chicory numbers plummeted quite significantly in terms of population initially, and then sort of stabilized at a new level, whereas the plantain continued to kind of decline.

Andrew Jones 1:11:21

Well, then there's uh quite a change from another well-known seed company. Uh and it is, as you say, it just shows the makeup literally month to month, year to year, doesn't it? It just it just changes. It's never the same.

Jo Matthews 1:11:34

Yeah, it does. It changes quite appreciably. Now we we did that in quite an aggressive fashion. That was under a 21 to 28-day defoliation routine routine. We were hitting those swords quite hard. We were continually, we're really exposing them to the kind of the harshest conditions they could, which is why we saw such a rapid decline. The areas that we pushed out and extended that defoliation interval, actually, we had we had significantly higher chicory population at the end of that than we did that was under the really close management. So there is this interplay between management, defoliation timing, and this water.

Ben Richards 1:12:12

So if you um if you follow the graze too low, you can go in every 20, 25, 28 days, even organically. Because by leaving that behind, those plants just regenerate so fast. You're not used to it, you ate it because you pull the cows out and half the food's left behind. So, what am I doing? There's a load more milk left in there. But and they tremble a load, you think, oh, I just wasted a load as well. Three or four days later, you think, Correct, I'll go back and graze that again.

Andrew Jones 1:12:41

It's it it just regenerates that fast. Yeah, it comes to I know I used to have a kiwi worked for me when I was in Victoria, and it was like, it's I'd be hungry on court for leaving that amount of food behind because there's there's there's feed there to be used, but actually it regenerates quicker in a way you go. It's it's it's the elevator mindset change to get your head around her. Definitely don't know. I've one from my several, I got asked to ask

Overseeding Permanent Pasture Options

Andrew Jones 1:13:05

this question, a couple of questions. If we are being pushed towards herbal aze, I think we sort of touched on this a little bit before, especially the second part of the question. Um, can we no longer have permanent pasture? Now, the reason for this is um the person that asked me, um, he hasn't um turned the soil over on his farm for 20 years, maybe more. He did tell me, I can't remember the exact number. He has just overseeded, and all he ever does every year is he overseeds, every spring he overseeds at sort of half rate and away we go. So I guess then the second part, and I think we have touched on this a little bit earlier, can herbal lays be successfully overseed into permanent pastures? And if so, when and how is the best time to overseed a herbal lay?

Becci Shrimpton 1:13:48

I'll let you take that one, Becky.

Andrew Jones 1:13:50

You can have your say, Joe.

Becci Shrimpton 1:13:51

So a lot of people, again, with the CSAM3 option on SFI, where they've said they want a herbal lay, have just drilled herbs into existing pasture. Yeah. And it either works or it doesn't. It's literally just in it's 50-50, depending on your soil type, depending on the weather, depending on the moisture. So it it can work.

Andrew Jones 1:14:15

And is there anything, I don't know, like using a particular type of drill or particular conditions that will give it a better chance of working?

Becci Shrimpton 1:14:23

Well, it's like any any overseed, isn't it? If you're overseeding grass into grass, you know, you've got to get everything right. Um, you've got to have it grazed down tight so you've got some seed soil contact. I mean that's that's that's how things grow. Um but as a rule of thumb, I people I don't think people overseed at the right kilos per acre either. I don't think it should be. I think they need to keep the seed rate up. Exactly where do you think of shall we? Oh, well, I mean, some people do 10 kilos an acre.

Andrew Jones 1:14:54

Yeah.

Becci Shrimpton 1:14:55

I think it should be up to 15. Depending on what seed you're putting in, obviously. Some seeds are bigger than others, so it depends what you're overseeding with. So you need less seeds if there's you know Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but overseeding, there is a place for it. Yep. And it depends what they want out of it. If they're serious and they want to have a herbal lay, then i there's other ways you can do it. What other ways would you do it? If it's just to get a payment for SFI Don't bother. Yeah, shoot me down. Just just.

Andrew Jones 1:15:32

Okay, they they they want a herbal lay, because that's the way we're being told to do to improve it. Their ground is classified as part of the pasture because they, you know, they haven't turned it over for a long time. They just overseed. What is the best way to do it?

Becci Shrimpton 1:15:48

Uh well, I again graze it down tight, but drag it some power.

Andrew Jones 1:15:51

As you would really, anyway.

Becci Shrimpton 1:15:52

Yeah. Drag some chains or a paraheroid across the top and then drill it, but keep the seed rate up. Give it half a chance.

Andrew Jones 1:16:00

Joe.

Jo Matthews 1:16:01

Um I'd just probably add that the management afterwards is pretty important as well. You know, that that keeping that sward tight until that starts to germinate is actually really critical for getting any chance of them to get away. And soil seed contact is is vital in this situation.

Becci Shrimpton 1:16:18

And don't try and graze it or anything too soon. Just just leave it to grow and get those roots anchored and the growing points up because you let animals in and they they bite it off and it doesn't come back.

Ben Richards 1:16:34

If if a successful overseed means it needed overseeding. If it fails, generally you didn't need to do it because your existing pasture has come back strong within your seeds are. Um see I seed to soil contact, obviously, but if you've got a field that's been pugged up in the spring, you've had a wet spring and you've pugged a paddock, jagged a few chain arrows over it, get a bit of earth, it all look like a a bare field. Um if your older pasture then is coming through and head of your seeds, you might shout me down for this, but I would go in there and nip it off. Just to give you got cotleaden stage seeds underneath, and your your old pasture is taken away. Um, those cotleides are gonna get shaded out. So I would I would go in there and give it a light graze in. Let those cotleadins come up through. Um yeah, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Sarah Bolt 1:17:25

So I've got a question here for you. So for a farmer thinking about herbal lays for the first time, what's the biggest mistake he should try and avoid? Not soil testing. That's quick and easy. Ben.

Ben Richards 1:17:40

Planning in the autumn. I'd never go in the autumn, always the spring, spring or summer.

Andrew Jones 1:17:44

Well, if if you did go to Becky or Joe, then because then's already said no, no. And you asked them how late would you go? Middle of August?

Jo Matthews 1:17:54

Yeah. September is a no for me.

Becci Shrimpton 1:17:58

Did well you say that, but this last September probably would have been okay.

Jo Matthews 1:18:03

Everything's a risky biscuit. It is. You know, nothing is guaranteed, but as you edge closer towards September, and I've we've done it, I've done it on the farm at home, and I've said we're rolling the dice. And you know, you do, it does increase the risk. Um, tend to get, you know, springs can all or be reseeds can be tricky, but you those herbs like and those legumes like those ground conditions. You have to get a legume to trifoliate stage before the winter.

Andrew Jones 1:18:34

There's a general rule, it's mid-August for those clovers and those herbs that are latest is when you should be reseeding.

Dandelion Knapweed Vetch And More

Ben Richards 1:18:42

Look what nature does. Nature doesn't it wouldn't naturally be seed in midsummer when it when all the plants are naturally seeding themselves. And nature also needs to see top ground and doesn't bury it.

Rick Swait 1:18:52

Uh dandelions. Um, been briefly mentioned already. I hear that they use them out in Holland on their herbole lays. Why aren't we using them in this country?

Ben Richards 1:19:04

I missed the first bit by say it on again.

Rick Swait 1:19:07

Uh Dandelions. Oh yeah. Uh you're using them, but basically you don't buy them in a herbole pack in this country, but you can it's in Holland.

Ben Richards 1:19:16

Yeah, well I we're looking at getting it, but the sea cost is just primitive. Um I've got a lot of respect for a dandelion. You can't kill them. Um they're they're Elish good for bumblebees early season because uh they flower me not we had dandelions flowering Dundays fortnight ago at home. Um they grow regardless, don't they? Cows love them. So why would you not have dandelion in your mix? They're they're also Ellish deep-rooted, um, they're pulling up a lot of good stuff, and um the cows love them. They're you know, they're they're an integral part of any pasture system to me. Um, you know, they're great.

Andrew Jones 1:19:57

Becky or Joe, can you uh Well, so I'm just gonna say, you you mentioned cost. What is the cost of dandelions that made you go and do it yourself? Uh it's over 150 quid a kilo, wasn't it?

Ben Richards 1:20:08

Yeah. But then I went and harvested it to take it to the farm, and I had a a carrier bag like full up with dandelion seed, and it probably weighed about 100 grams. So if you if you bought a kilo of dandelion seed, you'd have a hell of a lot of seed. It didn't take very long, you know? And the where I harvested it from, that that paddock was seeded when I got married, that's over 20 years ago. Um, and uh we haven't put herbal aid in that paddock because it's naturally turned itself into, yeah, you haven't got the plantain chicory side of it, but there's jarrow, there's sheets parsley, the cows have moved the seed around.

Sarah Bolt 1:20:42

Um, and it's still growing well, so so you made comment there that the cows have moved the seed around. We were all aware that clover can survive the cow's digestive system. Does some of these other seeds do so as well, or do we know?

Ben Richards 1:20:58

Might not have been the cows, might have been birds, might have been wind, but I've never put I've never put herbal seed in this paddock and it's it's naturally growing or it's growing it now.

Sarah Bolt 1:21:10

I was going to ask Joe and Becky if they knew anything about dandelions and and feed quality and the like.

Becci Shrimpton 1:21:15

Well, I all I know is farmers asked me what they can spray to take it out. So I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pass comment on that.

Jo Matthews 1:21:23

Um and I'm and fortunately it's not a species I've looked at yet. Yet be the operative way.

Sarah Bolt 1:21:30

So taking this last summer, certainly um here in Somerset, there were loads of buttercups everywhere. Have you have you tried buttercups, Ben? You're cringing when I say the word buttercup. Share with me your experience.

Ben Richards 1:21:40

I don't like buttercups, cows don't eat them. Um they're buggers to get rid of. And uh yeah, just they're not edible, are they? Or if they are, then like my cows don't like them.

Jo Matthews 1:21:51

They're bitter with the alkaloid content. So they're they're in the same way that ragwort is. It's just not quite to the same extent, which is why they avoid it within the swat.

Sarah Bolt 1:22:00

Live and learn, because you'd have thought that is it just me? But I thought dandelions, you know, if you pick a dandelion and touch your mouth with your fingers, it's quite bitter. Like very bitter. Not that everybody's gonna think I start eating uh wildflowers at this rate. What have I been doing in my spare time? Yeah. So I think there was one of the other ones that we were talking about earlier, Joe, before we started recording, we were talking about napweed, and that grows like that is grows like a weed everywhere, doesn't it? So can you tell us a little bit more about napweed? Because it's not one that I would uh think of putting in a mix.

Jo Matthews 1:22:32

Well, no, and actually, if you look at its overall performance of in terms of biomass accumulation, it doesn't bring a huge amount to in terms of annual total iron production. But what we did find is that we had ME's of of 12.4, and that was a real surprise. I wasn't expecting a nap weed to be producing that at certain points of the year, and so and its mineral profile is really interesting um compared to some of the other varieties, you know, copper, uh boron, sulphur. So it is it is slightly different to some of the others. I have to also say that it may be really interesting, but actually it wasn't present in a huge quantities in the soil. We couldn't get it to persist. Now, you may be under your type of brazing, you may be able to get some of these to persist that we're not on our particular soil types. And that's that's where this kind of debate gets quite interesting because you can have the most nutrient-dense, the most um brilliant mineral profile, but it could get grazed out with the cows after one sitting, one one eat one one meal, and they're done. Um, and then what does it actually bring into your sward? It's kind of a one-hit wonder. So that's also part of the story as well.

Andrew Jones 1:23:49

It was just my original when you sort of said, hey, it's doing this, is are we going to see that pushed into mixes, Court was saying? Is you don't think it will be unless you can maybe breed a more persistent variety.

Jo Matthews 1:23:59

Yeah, I'm I, you know, it's it's something of interest. It's something we didn't know, but again, we didn't have that persistency, and I don't therefore think it will form a major part of the mixtures going forward.

Sarah Bolt 1:24:13

So there's sort of other other um species that we find in what I would call traditional hay meadows, so things like oxide daisies, cornflowers, all of those sorts of things. Do you think that any of those might start creeping into our mixes as well?

Andrew Jones 1:24:28

So it's a yes from Ben.

Jo Matthews 1:24:30

Ben's a definite yes. Um, I think I think I think it's farmer's choice to some extent. You know, there is that ability to look at what's growing in your surroundings, what is thriving. And then someone like me may have done some research, looked at it, and tried to find out what actually is within that. May it be of any interest.

Andrew Jones 1:24:54

Um it's gonna take a mindset change, isn't it? Because again, it comes back to it's weeds.

Jo Matthews 1:25:00

For some people, there is.

Andrew Jones 1:25:02

I mean, I'm sorry, tradition meadows, but in the way that we've been farming in, I suppose, my lifetime, it's that's a weed, we just want straight ryegrass. For some people, it's gonna be a real mind change, isn't it?

Jo Matthews 1:25:15

And that may be how we're, you know, there will be there could well be a divergence. You know, some people are good at managing, they have a great ability to manage a perennial ryegrass, white clover, sward, and they will feed it and they will utilize it to its utmost. And then there may well be a different sector of the market that go, do you know what? I'm looking at it in a different sphere. I'm accepting the challenges that it is, I'm learning from them, and I'm finding my own way through this. And that may well mean they want to put dandelions in, they might find that you know knapweed is brilliant in their area or Birdsford Treffer or Sanfoin, any of those kind of things. And so there could well be some changes.

Becci Shrimpton 1:25:59

I think on the other note, what you've got to remember is trials all cost money and time, and it's got it takes somebody to kind of take hold of that. And you've only got one season, effectively, haven't you? And the seasons can be affected by so many different things that the data you get will vary year on year, soil by soil.

Andrew Jones 1:26:19

Stuff is getting a lot more specialised, yeah. That the money's not going to be thrown at it like it has been ryegrass or whatever it has.

Becci Shrimpton 1:26:26

Yeah, so somebody's not gonna do a trial on the oxide daisy specifically because it just takes so much time. There could be somebody doing it that we don't know about, but yeah, it's it's one of those things that, like you say, farmers will just have to try themselves and see what works and what doesn't work.

Andrew Jones 1:26:42

Yeah.

Graham Weeks 1:26:44

Well, that was only just going to ask you, which and Ben, about grazing, not go grazing anything too tight. Surely when you're coming out from those grazing situations, you are left with some which is trampled. How long does that take or take to get rid of, or does it regenerate itself? Because I it occurs to me that you know it's how what you want want to thrive underneath it. Well, have enough light.

Ben Richards 1:27:06

It's it's until you actually see it in practice, it's hard to get your head around. Um you'll the the paddle will look like it will come back, it look like a grazable paddle again within a week. Um, and you would think with a trampoline you'd lose your white clovers and the and the more, but you don't. And I I don't I don't know why, I don't know how. Um Herbal Ays don't like being grazed when it's wet. And if you go in there and do trampling, if you actually pug the ground as opposed to trampling it, you'll lose your clovers. Um and I put vet, looser, and and four or five different clovers in my mixes. Um if you pug them, you'll stuff them. But you can go in on a you know, if if it was a real wet wet wet summer, I would probably tend to graze them on lower covers to to eliminate the trampling side of it so much, or you get in there and get them out quicker. Um But like last summer, it's absolutely banging and uh for the herbal lay. And yeah, it's it's interesting to see, but it's it's hard to explain without actually you you seeing it for yourself. But don't don't worry about losing species unless you're gonna graze it in uh a wet time where you're gonna plug in.

Jo Matthews 1:28:19

I mean, I've got very small uh sort of anecdotal evidence in that so we've got these two completely different regimes, long, short, sat next to each other. We've passed this mechanical cow across it, beating up this sword. And I went, oh, I don't like it. I'm not sure about this. Do I need to do I need to try and take it down a bit more? Do I need to because then we just pass over to get the yields? And what was really interesting, and what I didn't expect, was the chicory had like bent over with sort of parasites if an animal got there in, they bent it over. And at every point along that chicory stalk that was bent over came new leaves within no time at all. And and that surprised me because the ones that were just over to the left-hand side that had been cut off quite tightly were were still struggling to recover from that. And it was quite surprising, but I did have to spend quite a lot of time going, I'm not sure I like the look of this. I don't know what to do.

Andrew Jones 1:29:19

Uh Ben, you mentioned vetch. I mean, something wrong. I don't ever see a lot of vetches in a lot of these mixes. Is there any reason why we should see more of it?

Ben Richards 1:29:29

Um Newman Turner told me to put kidney vetch in or one of it in one of his mixes. Um uh vetch is a nice plant. Legume again, putting oxygen in the soil. The cows like it. Um if it's pretty pant when it's flowering, so you've got a lot of nectar there for for pollinators. Um, it's it's seems to persist fairly well.

Andrew Jones 1:29:47

I wouldn't say, I mean, Joe, Becky, you got any bit, you know, to me, it just doesn't seem to be something you see a lot in mixes, and um why is that the case?

Becci Shrimpton 1:29:55

Well, we see it a lot in the cover crop mixes, don't we? Yeah. But we see no no no, but we there there are vetches available, but but they're not in the herbal lay mixes, are they? I think they they can be.

Jo Matthews 1:30:08

Um tend bespoke mix, yeah. Generally speaking, and it's interesting your experience about persistency of vetch. Generally speaking, if they're left a bit too long and then they get cut or grazed or whatever, they don't tend to then bounce back very well. They're quite a spindly plant that snakes its way up through the profile of the sward. So I think they tend to almost go into a lot of mix, which almost is like a one-hit wonder for protein. They're also quite an interesting seed size, and then you can get some diff problems trying to put all this mixed when you say interesting seed size, do you want to explain that? Uh it's it's quite a big seed, quite a big round seed. Um, and that when you've got really fine legumes and and small and it can cause problems with your calibrations basically and seed settling out in the drills.

Neil Groom 1:30:59

Joe, if you're

Early Grazing Infrastructure And Longevity

Neil Groom 1:31:00

with with with your trials where you've got your perennial rye grass trials on the field and you've got herbal lays, how quick can you do your first grazing round on your herbal lays compared to your perennials that are under 200 kilos of N or whatever? Are you 10 days later? Is it the same?

Jo Matthews 1:31:22

Uh we're quite a heavy fertile site anyway. Um, there isn't actually that much difference, I would say. Um, but that has quite a lot to do with quite a lot of the herbal lays we're trialing, have quite a strong perennial grass backbone to keep the base in to stop it opening up too much for weed ingress and that kind of things. So it's a slightly different model to the one Ben's discussing. But there is a difference, and you'll find that there is a yield penalty at that like March, April cut, that really early season cut. Um, but that's more than compensated for later in the year.

Neil Groom 1:31:59

What about you then, uh, Ben? Are you putting the KOs out a little bit later than your neighbours, or because you're down in Cornwall and there's great growing conditions, actually, as soon as the land's travel, you're out there anyway.

Ben Richards 1:32:13

Well, they're as soon as they start carving, they're gone, they're out. Um, but I we get quite a lot of winter growth done with us. I mean, when we're on the ryegrass system, we would get down to about five kilos a day um in January, December, January. Um and then we'll be back up to 15 to 20s up in as you're coming into the early spring. Um there is detrimental, especially in the organic system. I can go and hit the farm of nitrogen and get my early growth. Um, if we have a cold spring and the clovers don't get going, I'm relying on stored feed or stored growth has come through the winter to take me through that first round until the clovers get going. But once the cows care, they're out the grass, whether it's rain, shine, or whatever, they they've got to go and graze. Um so if it's a bit like with the the cut-in side of things, within the herbal lay um lifespan, um, we're sort of looking at reseeding every eight, nine years. So you've got a third of the farm is is young herbal lays, a third of the farm is medium-term herdle lays, and a third of the farm is late. So the later, the later herbal lays, we can graze them early. Because you're not worried about taking herbs out because they're disappeared anyway. Um I need that mix on my farm to enable me to graze the cows early season because there's nothing more upsetting than putting cows on a lovely-looking herbal lay and then trashing it.

Andrew Jones 1:33:41

You're saying it's lasting eight or nine years, some of your lays. How are you finding the rights of clovers and that in those lays? Is it just really pure grass by then?

Ben Richards 1:33:51

Um you get into the the the I'll say third trimester, I can say that can't I? Um when you get into the third trimester, um your clovers are are starting to ease back. You're you've you've gone through the the clover stage where it's pumped the lower nitre in the soil, your grasses are then shady the clovers out, and then your clovers is are starting to diminish. That's when we'll go in and reseed. I'm assuming by then we make the whites there. Yes, yes, very much. So you'd have whites, you'd have a bit of sheets parsley, a bit of but there'd be like sporadic herbs across the paddock. Um, but it it suits me. If you want to maximise your production, you're gonna be reseeding every four years on a herbal lay system. Economically, and for the way I'm working it, that doesn't work for me.

Andrew Jones 1:34:37

Um so it has benefits having the older lays that you can, you say, trash if you need to.

Ben Richards 1:34:42

It gives you a lot more flexibility, Andrew, because you you you the older ones will take a plug-in and you still have growth through the rest of the summer. Um so yeah.

Andrew Jones 1:34:51

So yeah, it's it's so I'm guessing the whole farm is now herbal lays, but they're a different or you just use trimesters, they're a different stage and in their life cycles to then give you some of that flexibility.

Ben Richards 1:35:04

And it gives the cows more variety as well. But when the cows are are grazing the the later ones, when they're coming in, they're picking hedges, they're pulling cleavers out of hedges, they're eating hawthorn. When they're on the early herbal lays, they walk straight in and don't even look at the hedges. So they're still going looking for the herbs just in the different sorts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the when the the the earlier herbal lays, when the herbs are in full, you know, they're prolific, they don't look to the hedge. Um, and you'll see they're sort of they're smiling when they're eating the early ones, and they don't look quite so happy when they're eating the later ones.

Neil Groom 1:35:36

Ben, can you explain how you set up your grazing paddocks? You know, how many paddocks have you got and how long will the cows be in a paddock? And how do you you know structure the infrastructure on your farm to do all that, really?

Ben Richards 1:35:49

Yeah, I I set the farm up when I got back from NZ and uh we got two hectare paddocks. Um, every paddock is accessible from a hard hard road. Um, and the the two-hectare paddock has a drinking trough in the middle of it, basically. So you can split split your two-hectare paddock into a hectare. Um, I can get the paddocks down to half hectare paddocks and still access every part of the farm off a hard track. Um, it's a wet farm. Um when I was twice a day milking and really pushing the Kiwi style system, it's essential uh infrastructure. If I'd gone down the airboard lay route to start with, I wouldn't have had to put half of it in. Um because now I would the cows will go out and basically they're in a paddock as long as they need to be to get down to the right residual. Um sometimes that's 12 hours, sometimes it's 36. Um, but I'm not worried when I shift them. Um you're flexible with your grazing rather than Yeah. Yeah. So we're we would our average field side is about 15 acres, and then we've got a cornish hedge around it. Um so I'll split them off a hard road with electric fence. So, you know, if they need especially when it is if it's wet conditions or you want to go in and you want to shift more regularly, um, I've got the the ability to put them on a half hectare. Um when the cows are calving and you've got half the cows calve, they go on a smaller paddock. Um, and then as the season progresses, it I don't it's not saying I get more relaxed about it, but the cows have more flexibility on trying to fully feed them. So I'll take it down to the residual that is right for that paddock. Similar up to anger Amy, yeah, on the on the early herbal lays, but again, you've got the three different stages, so you would take the residuals down lower as you as this as they get older because then we're getting more grass dominant. So, you know, I would go, I'll still take it down to 1700, 1800 on the later ones and lift the residual as the lays are younger. Um, so yeah, like I said, I don't mind going out at 10 o'clock in the evening and shifting cows, don't bother me at all. Um, which is I'm quite happy to do it. It don't do it all the time. It's being flexible. Yeah, it is. Nothing's set in stone, and you and you know what nature's gonna, you know, weather's gonna do anything else. So um it's it go the going through the the the intensive ryegrass growing period has given me more infrastructure than I need, but it's given me the flexibility to manage things quite well.

Final Takeaways And Closing Remarks

Neil Groom 1:38:16

Okay, I've got a quick question for Joe then. With ryegrass and red clovers, white clovers, we've had 75 years of breeding or whatever. Of all the herbs and legume herbs that you've looked at, what's got the most potential? What excites you the most, and what you're putting your effort into?

Jo Matthews 1:38:35

There's a number of different elements. We're currently looking at grazable red clovers. Um there's Birdsfoot Treffle work we're doing. We've got um, we're hopefully in the pipeline of something more persistent and more competitive. Um, and we're also, you know, we are looking at plantains that are more adapted for UK, and can we reduce the propensity to run to head? Because at the point a plantain puts up a seed head, its overall ME content plummets and it switches to a different form of production. And it does that at the point it normally gets quite stressed. So, but there is a huge because it hasn't, because these varieties haven't been bred like white clovers, like red clovers, there is huge scope and huge improvement that can be made if the market is to continue as it currently is.

Toby Green 1:39:32

Um if your herbal lay gets ahead of itself, what should you do? Um which way which way do you mean get another self? It's you miss a miss the grazing or it goes to goes to seed.

Ben Richards 1:39:49

Um I wouldn't bail it because once it goes to seed, I've bailed it before and it's it doesn't seem to ferment as well. It gets a lot of mould in it. Um I'd be very tempted to uh cut it for A myself if it gets too far ahead if it's the season allows. Um or I mean my cows have I've bred bloat out of my herd, so I can graze anything I want with my cows. I didn't get no bloat issues, so I would graze it. Would he top it? No, personally I wouldn't. Um I would mow it at higher and and make it in A or or you know at that growth stage. Um but bring it down to grows again just to freshen it out. Yeah, yeah. Um but you've got a hell of a tool there. If you've got cows that are able to do it, put them in there to graze it and then put them on another field that ain't got no clover the following day, and you could potentially make use of a mistake. Um you made a mistake by letting it go to seed, um, but you can gain off that by putting your cows on part of the farm that ain't got very much clover, and potentially using that seed, you you aren't gonna buy you aren't gonna buy no clover seed then.

Jo Matthews 1:40:58

I mean, and that is definitely a kiwi kind of system, you know, grazing cattle over seed, viable white clover is definitely a tool. Actually, the viability of white clover is not so great here. Um, otherwise, we'd have had combining crops for seed production, which is why we don't have that big resource in the UK. But New Zealand, for example, and other parts of the world, it's a it's a credible option.

Andrew Jones 1:41:26

Uh well, on that, I'm looking at the time, and it's time we uh haul this to a close. So, um, Joe, any last words of wisdom from yourself?

Jo Matthews 1:41:35

I would say you've had all the wisdom that my brain can hold for the day. Um no, other than it herbal lays are not pretty and they're a moving feat. And if you accept that and embrace that, then you might find some benefits post a subsidy check.

Becci Shrimpton 1:41:53

Um, I've actually got a final closing remark. Um, and I just it's literally what I've talked about, which is when soil species and management align, herbal lays will deliver. When they don't, they'll disappoint. It's as simple as that.

Ben Richards 1:42:07

Yeah. Um herbal lays have made my life a lot more pleasant. Simple as that. I'm making a nice bit of money, I've got stacks of time to do what I want to do. Cows are happy, everything is going well. So for me, herbal A's have been a major transformation for my well, pretty much everything, really. Cows, how cow health, molly health, mental well-being, and uh profitable.

Sarah Bolt 1:42:31

So I just think it highlights how every farmer can be their own little scientists doing their own little trial work on their own farm to see what actually works for them, whether that's herbal lays or or anything else. And I think that herbal lays fit really nicely into that category. And and actually it's maybe it's something that that every farmer could just try a little bit somewhere to see if it suits them.

Andrew Jones 1:43:00

Well, I'll finish first of all just by saying thank you to our hosts today, the UK Agri Tech Center, um, where you've been recording this. But otherwise, yeah, it's been really great listening to the three of you, uh, all different perspectives, whether it's trial, growing it, or actually using it on farm. It's been really interesting. I think the message that probably comes through more to me is being flexible. It's it's as you say, it's not it might not look pretty. Maybe it will look pretty. But it might not, it might not look pretty, but it's it offers and you've got to be flexible with it. It's not the 21-day rotation, it's not the bringing it down to what 1600 um residuals. It it's being flexible and moving your cows maybe a bit more often, or the fact that every time you go look at it, it's likely to be different. It's not going to be the same, and and that's from not just month to month, that's year to year as well. So maybe for some people it's understanding that the management challenge is slightly different, and it, you know, it's all easy if we all just follow a pattern, but you need to be flexible. That maybe as that field isn't quite ready to graze, we'll move on to the next one that is, and then come back to it uh and look at maybe some of the benefits that we talked about, what minerals it's bringing, maybe potential health benefits that are coming from all of these things. And we don't, I guess we've just had the two, you don't need to be a Ben who's this is fully on, this is how I do it, fully extreme. You'd accept that you are an extreme herbal lay grower. Would you would you accept that? Possibly. But you know, and I guess the Sarah's just in and everybody should go try it and works for them and what works for their farm, which I guess comes back a little bit to what I've always been told to try a herbal lay and work out what does and doesn't work for you. And it every farm's gonna be different, every field's gonna be different, and it's not the program or ryegrass that you just stick in every field and and hope for the best. It's gonna have to be be flexible with your with your management um uh to make the most of it and don't necessarily don't grow it just for the fact that you're getting money for it, grow it because you yeah, that helps at the moment for you maybe to trial some of these products um uh or mixes. Um but long term if you're gonna grow it, grow it because you want to grow it, you see the benefits for it, not just grow it because, oh, I can make some money out of this rather than thinking about what will it bring to my cows, what will it bring to my farm. Um, but other than that, I guess it's a goodbye from me.

Sarah Bolt 1:45:37

And it's a goodbye from me.

Andrew Jones 1:45:39

Thank you very much, everybody. Top job.

Sarah Bolt 1:45:42

Thank you to our audience as well.

Andrew Jones 1:45:45

Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the ChewintheCud Podcast, podcast for the UK dairy industry brought to you from the south west of England and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose, and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness, or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of Chewinthe Cud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Limited and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Ltd, visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye.