ChewintheCud Podcast

DCAB: Stop Being Afraid of It!

• Season 5 • Episode 1

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The transition period is the twenty-one days either side of calving. Get it right and the rest of the lactation follows. Get it wrong and you could spend the next ten months firefighting. To kick off Year Five, we're joined by Vicky Ham, Ruminant Technical Services Manager, Europe for Arm & Hammer Animal Nutrition, to talk about DCAB — what it actually is, why it still strikes fear into people who should know better, and why the research keeps pointing in the same direction. The work goes back to Dr Elliot Block in the mid-1980s and is reinforced by meta-analyses from J.E.P. Santos: cows fed a negative DCAB diet calve with better calcium status, suffer fewer transition diseases, and eat more dry matter post-calving. The evidence is there. The question is why more people aren't using it.

We cover the basics of acidification and how urine pH testing tells you whether cows are actually where they need to be — and why there is no such thing as a partial DCAB diet. You are either acidified or you are not. On the practical side we talk forage mineral analysis, straw potassium surprises in drought years, protein source selection, palatability, mixing, and why consistency is everything. We also cover what happens post-calving, stocking density, feed space, and why cows need to come off the negative DCAB ration the moment they calve.

We also get into newer thinking on inflammation — the emerging evidence that hypocalcaemia may be less about calcium deficiency and more about an activated immune system demanding calcium and glucose at the expense of everything else. Studies suggest close to sixty per cent of cows at calving show inflammation with no clinical signs whatsoever. Managing that inflammatory load is not a separate conversation from transition nutrition. It is the same conversation. 

This episode was recorded in June 2026, and all information was correct at the time of recording. 

Are you running a DCAB diet, and if not, what's holding you back? We'd love to hear from you. Please share, subscribe, and leave us a review — it helps more dairy farmers find us.

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For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast, or on Facebook and LinkedIn as ChewintheCud Ltd . You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com.

Andrew Jones:

This is the ChewintheCud Podcast — conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to ChewintheCud Podcast. My name is Andrew Jones and with me as always is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt:

I'm very well, thank you Andrew. How are you keeping?

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, I'm all right. I'm excited because this is the start of year five.

Sarah Bolt:

It's fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Where have those four years gone for you?

Andrew Jones:

Oh, tell me about it. It's been a lot of work, but it's also been a lot of fun learning as we talk to all of our guests over those last four years or so. And I know year five is really looking good. So really looking forward to it.

Sarah Bolt:

Who have you got? Who have we got lined up?

Andrew Jones:

Yeah. Who have we got lined up?

Sarah Bolt:

Yeah. Not just down to you. Well, you do all the hard work.

Andrew Jones:

Um, we've got some great guests lined up. Um, we've got Matt Dobson, Ian Lindsay coming to talk about, uh, the Stride UK initiative. Uh, we've got Stuart Rogers is back again, this time with Rob Purdew from Farm Carbon Toolkit talking about Carbon Farmer of the year. Um we've got uh Kirsty Farnham's going to be talking about choline. Paul Morris is back. Going to give us an update on Oxitech because some big things have changed since we last spoke to him. Georgina Thomas and her colleague Juliette Wilms is going to be on about milk powders updates on milk powders. Matt Gue, from who's current chairman of the British Cattle Breeders Club. Paul Harris is going to be back doing another one. Tom Tolputt. And that's just the ones that are already booked. And most of the others are already in the process of just trying to figure out dates and times and things. So I think to me, it's, it's going to be an exciting year, um, for the podcast going forward.

Sarah Bolt:

I'm really looking forward to talking to them all and, uh, some great topics in there as well.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But it should definitely highlight though, there are going to be some changes, um, going forward. And that is the fact that the podcast now has some support from the industry, which is fantastic. So thank you very much to those that have agreed to support the podcast. But in terms of, um, the, the editorial of the podcast, that still comes down pretty much to myself. Um, so it will still remain independent, it will still be down to me. Um, but obviously after for now, five years of, of doing the podcast, um, it's really good just to get that support to keep the podcast moving forward. So a lot of a lot of time and a lot of work has gone into it to get it to where it is today.

Sarah Bolt:

Definitely. But you've had some good. We've got some really good figures, haven't we, as well as to listeners and where we are in the, in the in the podcast charts, as it were.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, definitely. I decided to update some figures recently, which I tried to do every few months anyway, but dare I say it, I stuck it into a I and asked it just to go, hey, here's the figures. What does it what does it tell you? And it came up with some really, um, uh, good feedback that I'd never even thought about. I just normally concentrate on the seven day metric because that's what everything's, um, put up against. Uh, but it came up with some really good figures talking about how people find us, how people, uh, once they find us, usually stick with us. So thank you very much. If you're still with us, um, you know how, uh, as an independent on a particular chart. We ranked seventeenth in the world for dairy podcasts, and yet we're a small independent one, whereas most of the others a US based or a backed or backed by, um and or backed by some big industry body. Um, so, so yeah, it just keeps showing how much this podcast is growing. So, um, thank you to all our listeners and everybody, whether that's host, co-host, host, that's me, co-host, um, guests over the last four years and now moving into year five have been involved. It's really made it worth it.

Sarah Bolt:

It's been fantastic.

Andrew Jones:

Well, thank you. And I guess on that note, it's time we say, let's go listen to the start of year five. And I hope you enjoy. This episode is brought to you by ChewintheCud Ltd — completely independent, practical nutrition advice for the dairy and beef industries. Whether you need nutrition support, CowSignals® advice and training, or RoMS accredited mobility scoring, we tailor the advice to your farm and your requirements. For the full range of services visit www.chewinthecud.com or email nutrition@chewinthecud.com. This episode is also brought to you by ChewintheCud Ltd — we now offer first aid training designed for agriculture and farming, delivered by a registered First Aid at Work trainer and experienced Minor Injuries Practitioner. For more details visit www.chewinthecud.com or email training@chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones, and I'm Sarah Bolt. Sarah's time today is kindly brought to you by Kingshay — and together we bring you the ChewintheCud Podcast, kitchen table conversations for the dairy industry. Whether you're a farmer, adviser, processor, or anywhere else in the supply chain, we have topics and episodes that will interest you. We cover the practical and technical aspects of dairy farming. We want to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself whether it could be done differently. Each episode we speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise. Subscribe and listen for free on your favourite podcast platform, or sign up at www.chewinthecud.com for episode notifications so you never miss a release. You'll find links to all our socials there too — including our Instagram, chewinthecudpodcast, all one word, no G! Or get in touch directly at podcast@chewinthecud.com. If you enjoy what we do, please share it and leave us a review. Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back. Today we are joined by Vicky. Hello, Vicky.

Vicky Ham:

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Andrew Jones:

And Vicky is technical services manager, Ruminant Europe for Arm and Hammer Nutrition. So, um, well, let's get it out of the way first. Most people know. Arm and hammer is toothpaste.

Vicky Ham:

Well they do. And actually when I, when I went to start work for them, they said, oh that's a bit of an odd move isn't it. Going to work for arm and hammer, you know, leaving agriculture. So most people don't know that we are actually in the animal nutrition space.

Andrew Jones:

Uh, Vicky's here today. Last year we spoke to Donald Lawson from Premier Nutrition. Uh, and we, uh, in July twenty twenty five, we talked about the transition period, setting cows up for success. And in that, we gave a brief overview of the various different transition methods there were. But seeing the interest we got in that I thought would be good to follow up with that on another one this year. So I asked Vicky to come along and talk about, uh, particularly DCAD or DCAB, however you like to prefer it, but also about the transition in general. But before we do, Vicky, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

Vicky Ham:

Well, I have been as an on farm nutritionist for a number of years previously doing diets across the south west of England. But I think my nutrition interest really came from being at college and just the science behind it. You know, we're always learning, I think, with nutrition when it comes to cows and pardon the pun, you know, they're not it's not black and white. It is. It is grey isn't it? You know, there's, you're always learning. There's always something that comes along and surprises you. And that really stimulated my knowledge. And, you know, I did a, I worked for NMR for a bit where we looked at finding new tests from the milk sample, you know, with energy balance and ketosis from the spectral data. And again, that sort of kickstarted and reinvigorated my love for nutrition. And then I was able to, to do it on farm, um, for, for quite consulting for a number of years before then, uh, making the hop skip and a jump to do similar, but across Europe now. And it's just fascinating seeing the different things that you see across, um, across different countries. You know, there's so much to learn. There's so much that's different, but there's also so much that's similar as well, which I think is quite encouraging.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Having obviously farmed elsewhere in the world, as you say, that there are lots of similarities and lots of differences. And in my time when I was in Oz talking to, I remember like a Zimbabwean farmer coming and seeing us and things like that, it's it's all the same, but different. Um, ultimately, cows still got to be milked and fed and take it from there. But so today we're going to talk about the transition period. So let's just, um, I was going to start by just defining what DCAD or DCAD actually stands for, because I can never remember, and I'll admit I had to go and look it up this morning. So if you talk DCAD, it is dietary cation anion difference, or some people refer to it as DCAB. Dietary cation and anion balance. That's correct. I think I've got that right.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. Yeah. It is a bit of a mouthful.

Andrew Jones:

It is a little bit. It's not a surprise.

Sarah Bolt:

We shorten.

Andrew Jones:

It. Well no. Exactly, exactly. So at least we've got that bit out the way.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. Well, unless unless you're French and then they call it BACA just to confuse things.

Andrew Jones:

Fair enough.

Vicky Ham:

If you've got any French listeners.

Andrew Jones:

We do occasionally. Um but um we've at least got that out of the way and we'll talk about what it is. But let's talk about transition in general to start with then. Vicky, why is it so important?

Vicky Ham:

Well, I think we can use the Pareto principle here. You know, that eighty over twenty rule. And if we focus eighty percent of our efforts and work on that twenty one day pre and post calving, then means the rest of the lactation is really going to go go smoothly because that cow undergo undergo so much Physiological adaptation during that short period of time to set up, set herself up for success or indeed failure, as sometimes occurs.

Andrew Jones:

Well, exactly. So you've got it right. And and I guess I want to talk about DCAD a little bit today because it's something that I don't know, what's the word.

Sarah Bolt:

Quite specialized.

Andrew Jones:

Well, yeah, I'm not going to say I was almost going to say dirty word. That's the wrong word. But it.

Vicky Ham:

Fearful. It can.

Andrew Jones:

Strike.

Vicky Ham:

It can strike fear. Yeah.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah. I think that's probably a better word. Fearful that people maybe have tried it in the past hasn't been successful. Things have moved on. And I know myself, from what I read coming out of stuff from the US, more and more work is showing the benefits I think of DCAD may be compared to other transition systems. So I just wanted to let's have this conversation and see what it can bring.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. I mean, you know, research kicked off in the mid eighties by, um, you know, Doctor Elliot Block, who was, uh, was with us at Arm & Hammer is, uh, retired now. And if he's listening, I hope you're enjoying your retirement, Elliot. Um, but, uh, yeah, you know, it's really well researched. Uh, you know, a strategy for preventing milk fever out there. Um, numerous studies, numerous meta analyses out there as well to demonstrate that on the day of calving, those cows have better calcium status, um, there as well. And you're able to get better start up milks, uh, peak milks, um, and lower transition cow diseases in total.

Andrew Jones:

And let's be honest, like you were talking about the eighty over twenty rule, most things start in that transition period, whether pre or post those twenty one days. And that's where most disease occurs. And if you can get them successfully through that period, it makes a huge difference for the rest of the lactation.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. They'll just say, you know, well, what's the saying? You know, we need we want to see a four point cow. Don't we want to see it when we dry her off, when she calves, when we serve her, when we p d her. And then we don't want to see her at all after that. That's those are the cows that we want in our head.

Andrew Jones:

Exactly. Exactly. So would you like to just explain to people the basics of what DCAB actually are? Okay. So I've just flipped between both. So sorry.

Vicky Ham:

No, no, it's fine like either one. But yeah, small chemistry lesson then coming up. So cations are positive. Anions are negative charge. And so we have sodium and potassium being the positive cations and the negative anions being chloride and sulfur. So when we want to feed for a diet of a certain DCAD level, we need to balance balance those um during the transition period we want at that negative DCAD. So we want to feed more anions. So we provide supplements with chloride or sulfur in order to reduce that dietary DCAD value. And you've got products that are there at various different sources. So DCAD sort of measured in something called milliequivalents (mEq), which is the strength of or it's a combination actually of the strength of that and an electrical charge, and also then the molecular weight, which is why we get some of these like different, different strength products like ammonium chloride would be the strongest, for example. Um, and then you've got other ones or the most common one out there would be magnesium chloride, um, slightly lower strength than ammonium chloride. Um, and sulfates as well, which would be perhaps a little bit, a little bit lower. Again.

Andrew Jones:

Biggest problem in that regard though, isn't it for those products is their palatability becomes a factor as well doesn't it.

Vicky Ham:

And I think this is, you know, your point earlier about DCAD diets. Striking fear in certain people is because of that palatability issue and years ago when they might have tried it. Um, and, you know, our whole knowledge about transition cow diets isn't what it was today. You know, we probably had poorly striped straw, you know, that was there. And so we weren't getting uniformity of intakes. And, you know, that, uh, they are, you know, pretty, pretty unpalatable. So they need to be disguised somehow or mixed in. Well. Um, and if you just, you know, put some of them on top or if it's poorly mixed, you know, they're going to sort it and they're not going to eat it. Um, in total. And that's where years ago where we would have gone for perhaps very strong negative DCAD diets, they would have had an impact on, on dry matter intake.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah. As you say. And things have definitely changed haven't they. Um, so and I suppose the thing as well is, is we, when we're doing it, like you say, we want to feed those negatives. We don't want to feed too much positives. And that can be the downside maybe of. I personally prefer to keep Sum of all the forages are going to have milking in their diet because it gets the rumen flora and fauna right. But the downside of that is potentially grass silage is adding potassium, which can then upset the whole DCAD balance, isn't it?

Vicky Ham:

Exactly. Because you're adding in more of those positive cations in there, which just means you're going to have to feed more negative anions. So you're going to have going to have to add in more magnesium chloride or whatever you use in order to get that diet negative enough to elicit that that urine pH. So you get those benefits in there.

Sarah Bolt:

So you've just touched on silage being naturally positive. Are there any forages that are more more suitable for that that DCAB diet.

Vicky Ham:

Anything that probably hasn't had much fertilizer or manure applied and it will will help a whole crop again is another another good crop that would be naturally lower in potassium than some of the, um, some of the grass based forages in there. And and I'll also sort of flip your your question there, Sarah, to say which ones are also not suitable. Um, and I think, you know, with some of these newer like conservation schemes that we're seeing, you know, I've had cases where people have looked at some of those multi-species leys that have bolted and gone, oh, that looks really fibrous. And that would be an ideal dry cow feed. And of course, they fed it and just had a number of disasters because those legumes that are in there have quite an unusual, um, unusual mineral profile. So I would definitely steer clear of any of those sort of like conservation lays, um, for, for, for negative DCAD diets.

Andrew Jones:

We learned a little bit about unusual minerals, didn't we, in the podcast live event we did on herbal lays. And that was one of the topics that came out was like, what minerals do these bring? And some of them do bring some different minerals to the party, certainly.

Sarah Bolt:

And I guess that's the advantage of actually analyzing forages for mineral balance.

Vicky Ham:

So yes, you talk about Analyzing forages, and we mustn't forget to analyze the straw in there as well. People think that straw doesn't vary too much in their mineral content, but actually when we have drought years, for example, that plant is searching for water. While it does that, it can uptake quite a bit more nutrients. And one of the consequences is actually higher potassium levels. And I've seen this, uh, you know, several years. Um, certainly in the south of England as well, where straw has this slight pink tinge to it.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, I know.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. And you know, it's all coming. It's all familiar now and that is higher potassium. And you know, book values for, for wheat straw are going to be somewhere around point maybe zero point three, zero point four percent. You might get up to zero point six percent. Now I've tested some straw samples that were pink in color during the drought years, and I've had potassium levels come back at two percent.

Andrew Jones:

Wow. Big difference.

Vicky Ham:

Huge difference. And if you're feeding a diet that's got four or five or six kilos of straw in already, that's going to upset upset your DCAD value. So yes, you're absolutely right in that we do want to test our forages and all of our forages, including straw. But I can guess what you're going to ask me next, or at least make the comment because I know Donald mentioned this on, on your other podcast was about, um, not doing, you know, how would you do a diet if you haven't got, um, if you haven't got mineral analysis and not everybody does. And I think that's where urine pH testing can be really, really beneficial in, in those circumstances.

Andrew Jones:

I mean, yeah, you're saying that I would massively usually maize is maize and like you say, whole crops similar. But for grass I would advocate. I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of straw having that much variation in it, I'll be honest. Um, but certainly grass I would advocate every year if you're whatever you're feeding to your transition cows needs a mineral analysis.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah, I would certainly say that, you know, even if you're not doing a DCAD diet, you know, still mineral test your forages so that you can reformulate your, your, your mineral anyway, so that we're not overfeeding or underfeeding. And from that point of.

Andrew Jones:

View, the cost isn't that much, to be honest with you, at the moment.

Vicky Ham:

It's minimal.

Andrew Jones:

It is. I mean, at the moment it would be, uh, twenty five quid to do a forage analysis and that would be.

Sarah Bolt:

About double that.

Andrew Jones:

And then sixty quid to do it with a mineral analysis as well. So really for sixty quid you could save yourself a hell of a lot of time and bother.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. And in milking cow rations as well, you know the money you could save there, you know, like I say, if you put put the dry cow, uh, DCAD diets to one side, even then your milking rations, you're just reformulating your mineral analysis would be beneficial.

Andrew Jones:

Exactly, exactly. But but yeah, no, I'm I'm certainly you may disagree, but I'm certainly an advocate. I like to try and have all the forages. I'm going to feed in my milking ration, in my transition ration to try and uh, what's the word I'm looking for, you know. Yeah. Like I say, get the room and flora and fauna ready to go with those with those forages. But as you say, it's a bit of an irony that we've been the industry has been telling farmers to make better quality silage, which we need for the milking cow. But actually for your transition cow, you probably want some older, stockier, poorer quality silages, isn't it?

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. And you could just set, you know, set a field aside, you know, if you know how many, you know, roughly how many dry cows you're going to have through the year, you know, you can make a certain, um, clamp or a layer in a clamp or even have some bales available if you just set that field aside. So you have a much lower application of slurry to it compared to what you do elsewhere, then you're going to be starting off from a much safer level in order to get some of that forage into, uh, into the pre lactation diet.

Andrew Jones:

And you mentioned whole crop. You didn't mention maize, but that's also usually a good one as well, isn't it, in terms.

Vicky Ham:

Of a low low level of minerals in there. Um and the majority of dry cow diets that I would have done will have been maize based. Um, it's simple, it's easy. Most dairy farms these days have maize, although a number of the farms that I would visit across Europe don't always, um, you know, certain areas don't have amazing. They would be, you know, grass based um diets over there as well. Still able to do DCAD successfully.

Andrew Jones:

Okay. Okay. So, um, you mentioned, uh, we mentioned roughly what they are, but what are the benefits then, say of a DCAD diet over maybe some of the other options out there? I mean, I guess the obvious one is partial DCAB, but also you've got binders, you've got all sorts of things.

Vicky Ham:

I was waiting for you to say that phrase.

Andrew Jones:

Partial.

Vicky Ham:

Partial. Partial. Because, okay, if it's one thing I want people to go away from listening to this podcast today is that there is no such thing as a partial DCAB. Okay. You are either acidified or you are not. And that's it. Okay. Um, and again, this comes back to my earlier point about urine pH testing is that as soon as we've got that cow to a urine pH around, you know, anywhere between six point two and six point eight, that cow is acidified. And you will have the benefits of switching on a number of mechanisms within that cow. Okay. So you will have increased responsive responsiveness to something called parathyroid hormone, which switches on the proteins and the enzymes that convert vitamin D into its active form. It helps to reabsorb more calcium through the gut lining as well. And also it switches on the bones, uh, to be more, um, to get more calcium resorption from, uh, from the bones. Okay. So, but that happens once we've got that cow into that acidified state.

Andrew Jones:

Other benefits.

Vicky Ham:

Well, I suppose that's you're right that that's mode of action. That's how it works. But benefits in terms of the cow performance that we'll see is we will as I as I started off by saying that we'll have better calcium status at calving. So, you know, we principally feed a DCAD diet to try and prevent milk fever. Um, so we'd see reduction in clinical cases, but also subclinical because we know that for every clinical case that we see, it's like an iceberg disease. There's going to be more subclinical lurking there than than we realize. But we're also going to have an impact on other transition cow diseases as well, things like ketosis, metritis, mastitis, any of those like. Inflammatory diseases we're going to have we're going to have a benefit with. Because calcium is involved in all of those to a certain degree because of. The interaction between calcium and the immune system through inflammation.

Andrew Jones:

Um. There's some newer work on inflammation as well, isn't there?

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. The, the latest thinking is that actually hypocalcemia milk fever isn't. Necessarily a deficiency of calcium, but a, um, an effect of, or the occurrence of an activated immune system that this requires calcium. So you get into this self-perpetuating cycle that we've got inflammation in the cow, which requires calcium, which causes calcium, the cow to go into hypocalcemia, which then causes a more inflamed immune system, which then requires and it goes round and round, round. And we get into this vicious circle, but we're not quite at the stage that we really understand why that calcium is needed for, for the immune system. We, we know that it sort of it blocks the activity of that parathyroid hormone. So it's going to then, um, almost prevent the benefits that we see, um, from those DCAD diets, which is where, you know, I think where we move to and where we need to start considering as part of our dry cow strategies is how we handle inflammation in, in that key stressful period because, you know, in, in all dairy systems, we're going to put cows through stressors that we can't avoid calving, drying off. You know, if we look at calves, weaning dehorning, They're all unavoidable stressors that these animals go through that we need a way to manage inflammation in order to make sure that when that cow does have inflammation, that doesn't become systemic.

Sarah Bolt:

Sort of the terminology, sort of inflammation. I don't think that we've really sort of talked very much about that in, you know, sort of certainly I've been in the industry thirty something years, and we've only perhaps I've it's only really come across my plate in the last maybe five. And then we start hearing things about leaky gut and all of these things that all seem to be related to inflammation. We hear about it more from a human point of view and, and everything else. And it's something that I'd really like to explore a little bit more that I feel that I don't know and understand enough about.

Vicky Ham:

I think we've had a lot of focus on like adaptive immunity. So vaccines, for example, you know, we give a vaccine, we get an adaptive immune response. But actually, ninety five percent of all infectious challenges are resolved by the innate immune system. Okay. Um, and the cow doesn't actually, you don't actually have to see clinical signs for that cow to have inflammation. I think there's a, there was a study done, um, by some Italian researchers that showed, uh, nearly sixty percent of all cows at calving had inflammation with zero clinical signs. None. And if we have inflammation, what we know is that that is going to require glucose and glucose. Um, you know, I think again, another piece of work, I can't remember who, uh, who it's from demonstrated that an activated immune system requires a kilo of glucose every twelve hours.

Andrew Jones:

I was going to say that's, that's the one thing I've heard before. Is it a human? I've heard talk about it. The fact that, yeah, if you've got any sort of inflammation or disease, it's the the requirement of glucose suddenly goes up and that's where your energy gets taken. Is there rather than milk production.

Vicky Ham:

Exactly. You know, the systems that are going to want that glucose instead, like reproduction, production, they are going to lose out to the, to the immune system because that's, you know, the cows protective mechanisms kicking in in order for it to survive.

Sarah Bolt:

That takes the energy first.

Vicky Ham:

It does. It does. Yeah. It gets gets first dibs.

Sarah Bolt:

So sort of you just mentioned that increase in yields. Um, thinking about that, that increase in yields um and negative energy balance. Is there any impact on um of DCAB on negative energy balance.

Vicky Ham:

There have certainly been studies and we've seen in some of the trials that we've conducted that BHB. So Beta-Hydroxybutyrate levels are lower in cows that have been fed a negative DCAD diet compared to control diets out there as well. And again, I think that actually comes back to some of this inflammation that we've just touched on as well in that that's also involved in, uh, in reducing those transition cow diseases.

Sarah Bolt:

And I guess if they haven't got, they don't need that energy to, for the immune system, they've got it then to put into milk, etc.. So actually that negative energy balance won't be so great anyway.

Vicky Ham:

Quite. And studies showing, you know, similar no difference in body condition scores out there either or, you know, degree of body weight loss, um, comparisons. So and actually that the meta analysis from Santos that I mentioned earlier, they actually showed that cows fed that negative DCAD diet actually ate a kilo more dry matter intake after calving And if there's one thing.

Andrew Jones:

Significant.

Vicky Ham:

Exactly, if there's one thing that we all need to prioritize, it is dry matter intakes. Because if cows don't eat, then again, we get this vicious circle in less nutrients, um, leaky gut syndrome, which then kickstarts inflammation circle and so on and so forth. Ldas and Ldas, you know, ldas are a classic sign that something has gone wrong somewhere in the transition cow disease. On Donald's podcast, he really emphasized that room and fill scores are so important when it comes to managing that, that, that, that transition cow. And I couldn't agree more. It's so simple. It's so quick and easy to do and a really visual, um, visual tool to prevent something happening further down the line.

Andrew Jones:

Well, and I recently shared something with you that I stumbled across only recently. It's possibly be talking about energy and I'm not saying DCAB's the right word, but you're showing that it has benefits. If we get the transition right, it's affecting the offspring as well, isn't it?

Vicky Ham:

And I think this is a relatively new area that we're only just starting to explore is how the nutrition of the dam in late lactation and late lactation in in late gestation has an impact on that calf in, in later life. And, you know, the whole field of epigenetics is just fascinating. It really interests me.

Sarah Bolt:

I was going to say, we've got to remember that it's not just if it's a if it's a heifer calf, actually, that's an impacting the next generation as well, because obviously that heifer calf is going to be born with all, all of her eggs, etc.. So actually.

Vicky Ham:

Exactly.

Sarah Bolt:

You start thinking about it from that point of view that you're impacting the next two generations, not just exactly.

Vicky Ham:

And, you know, there's studies out there that show that, you know, if that dam is, uh, goes through heat stress during that period, then that has a negative impact on that calf and the heifers and the calf of her calves. Um, you know, in, in, in longer life as well. And I think the research that you shared, um, Andrew was about, you know, higher beach bees and room and development, um, in those calves. Um, so not being able to, you know, potentially take up the volume of nutrients that they need. And again, all consequences that are, are going to hinder us from hitting that calving at twenty four month for a heifer target.

Andrew Jones:

And achieving their potential basically.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. I mean, lost, lost genetic potential, I think is probably one of the biggest, um, biggest financial losses we all dairy farmers have to contend with.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah. I would argue there's plenty of times where the management doesn't keep up with the genetic potential.

Vicky Ham:

And we have gone through so many genetic advances in the last number of years as well. Mass genomics with genomics, you know, with some of the indexes out there, even sex, semen, all of that is really reduced our generation interval. And now we've got some of these almost like racehorse cows that we need to, you know, improve our management and nutrition of in order to feed them to their, to their genetic potential. And, and a large part of that does start in the dry period.

Andrew Jones:

It does. I mean, as I say, I probably already mentioned it, you know, most most things start in that if we can get it right in that period, it makes a huge amount of difference. I mean, I know the CowSignals®®, they concentrate very much on that, that dry to fresh, as they call it, period. That transition period. If we get it right there, that's probably eighty percent of the disease is taken care of then. And they're sort of thing.

Vicky Ham:

And not not just diseases, but also reproduction as well. So we're, you know, we're going to get cows cycling normally. We want all the cows to be cycling before thirty five to forty two days in milk. They want to be served by seventy, eighty days. We want to have a low proportion of those cows not served by one hundred days, because as soon as we get those extended lactations, this is where we get problems. Those cows become fat. Fat cows have way more problems than, than thin cows. Um, contrary to, uh, to what you might think, because they actually suppress the appetite and then they get ketosis. And again, we have another vicious circle that goes round and round and round.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I mentioned it, I think in the podcast with Donald. I looked at transition Diet must be eighteen months ago now. And he showed me the bit of paper. And the first comment I said is you must get a lot of ketotic cows. He said, how do you know that? I said, because you're feeding a milking cow ration in terms of energy. For anyone that's not listening. Transition. You're looking at what? One twenty one forty m e maybe.

Vicky Ham:

Somewhere. Somewhere in between there.

Andrew Jones:

Somewhere around there. They were feeding two twenty. And so all it's doing is making fat cows. And then when it comes to it, why are you trying to go. Oh, we want them to eat as much as possible. Actually, the quickest and easiest way for them to get energy is not to eat. It is to take it off their backs. So they end up in this cycle and you end up with a lot of ketotic cows and it just keeps going.

Vicky Ham:

It does another vicious cycle, as you say.

Andrew Jones:

It is so DCAD. We've sort of spoken about some of the benefits practically because how do we do it? People, I suppose also we said fearful earlier, they have to run around with urine strips. I know there's the trick that the vet often used to use I had in North Queensland, but I can never make a cow pee by tickling it in the right place. Now that sounds a bit dodgy. Sorry. Um, but um, do people need to run around with urine strips? How do they implement it on farm? Yeah. Let's start at the beginning. How do we make this work on farm? We talk about get your forage analyzed. What are the key markers? Where do you look for when you're when you're putting together a transition diet?

Vicky Ham:

Also consider the protein sources that you're feeding because they will have a different DCAD value as well. So something like rapeseed meal, that would be like minus two hundred milliequivalents (mEq)(mEq) or soya would be plus three hundred and twenty five. Now, a lot of people would consider soya to be a superior protein for dry cows because it has a large proportion of bypass protein, but it does have a high DCAD value. So I would prefer to see DCAD diets with with rapeseed. And I've fed negative DCAD diets very successfully on a very simple ration of maize, straw, rapeseed, and then your mineral and anionic supplement.

Andrew Jones:

Easy.

Vicky Ham:

Easy. Yeah. When we say it like that, it does sound quite easy. I don't know. I don't know what all the fuss is about, Andrew. Just chuck it in and away we go.

Andrew Jones:

But it does sometimes just need to be that easy. I mean, yeah, as I say, I prefer to put different foragers, but me personally, it is. Yeah. Let's say it's grass. Maize for sake, straw, whatever your protein source is. Uh, and then as you say, that's it. It doesn't need to be much else.

Vicky Ham:

No, it doesn't, it doesn't need to be complicated. And I don't, I don't know whether it's the industry's fault for making it sound more complicated because we talk about positives and negatives and urine pH testing. But if we've got a consistent forage source and we've got a consistent diet, we've got a, you know, a consistent number of cows, that diet can be the same pretty much all year round. So yes, it is good to urine pH test to check that we're at the right level because we can adjust that diet if we aren't, which means that we might be able to feed less of the supplement in order to achieve that urine pH level. Or we might need to feed more just to check that we're at that right level. Because, you know, when I when I berated you earlier for saying partial DCAD, okay, my point there was that the only way that we know whether we're in the right space is by doing that urine pH and it will be different for all for all herds because of the forages. But you know, things like breed, for example, also make a difference. So with Jersey cows, we actually want to be slightly lower because they're, um, funny creatures, jerseys, beautiful cows, absolute characters. But when it comes to minerals, slightly unique. So we want to actually be a little bit lower in their mineral, uh, in their urine pH level. So you want to be anywhere between like five point six and six point two. And there's your Holsteins will be again, six point two to six point eight. Okay. Um, but yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't need to be complicated, but it does need to be consistent.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I was going to say we've talked about straw and one thing we haven't mentioned regarding straw and you're talking about it needs to be consistently chopped to the right length doesn't it. Because if you just go put a bale of straw in the feed wagon and think, that'll do it, it won't. They will sort it. They won't eat it. Ideally a tub grinder, but it wants to be what, that one and a half, two inches in length. And I've seen them quite happily eat six kilos.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah they will if it's chopped. Well I mean thirty mil. I work in metric. Sorry, sorry. I should, I should really know the conversions quicker. I've been working with my American colleagues but um. Yeah. Thirty mil. Absolutely. Fine. And if.

Andrew Jones:

You've got a quarter.

Vicky Ham:

Then there we go. There we go. And if you've got that, if you've got the machine coming on farm to chop straw for the dry cows, then you've also got it there to chop straw for the calves as well.

Andrew Jones:

Yes, exactly. And farms that we've then gone and put the chopped straw into the calves because it was already there for the dry house. What a difference that makes. What a difference. So exactly. Good point. Definitely, definitely. But then practically we've got the mix. We're making sure it's consistent. It's fed daily. Make sure there's enough feed space because I've seen that as a problem before. Should people be running around to check their um uh, well, okay, what level of, uh, I can never think of what the unit is. You keep saying it. I just think of negative two hundred or whatever it is. What what levels do you aim for on a diet for for your DCAB.

Vicky Ham:

You can be anywhere from minus fifty milliequivalents (mEq) (mEq) per kilo of dry matter, all the way up to minus one hundred and fifty mil per kilo of dry matter. Um, because again, as long as you've got into that acidification, then you're achieving your goal on some farms, you might need to go stronger. On some farms you might be okay with minus fifty. And again, I have fed diets with that complete range. Now ARM and Hammer's recommendation would be anywhere from minus eighty to minus one hundred twenty. Um, but on the continent, I would come across some of these single dry cow groups and they would just get it just below negative. You know, they might be neutral or just like minus ten. And they're still able to see, to see benefits.

Andrew Jones:

Because they're in one group rather than two.

Vicky Ham:

Yes. And if you are feeding a single dry cow group, then I would recommend going milder on your negative DCAD. So again, between that zero and minus fifty, minus sixty, if you're feeding it for forty five days, and arguably it is actually probably the only strategy for single dry cow groups is a negative DCAD, which you can safely feed for forty two forty five days.

Andrew Jones:

For the whole period.

Vicky Ham:

For the whole period. But if we do only have one dry cow group, then I would advocate a shorter dry period length. I don't want to see a single group with sixty days. And the reason for that is that cow will put on too much weight, and then we'll get fat cows, and then that cycle starts exactly.

Andrew Jones:

Calving difficulties, etc., etc..

Vicky Ham:

Exactly. Malpresentations of the calf. All of that stuff will happen because that cow has eaten too much while she's not been producing.

Andrew Jones:

And sir, for how frequently would you recommend people running around with urine strips.

Vicky Ham:

When you've when you've made a diet change, it's going to take that cow probably three to five days to really sort of settle in or to get that acidification that you're aiming for. So after five days, then I would be sampling to, to check that you're hitting, where you want to be. And then once you've got those cows settled, if we're on a consistent diet, once a fortnight will be absolutely fine. Okay. You don't need to go in there daily. You can go in there weekly. If you've got a lot of things that are going on, you know, you've got a number of layers in the clamp. Um, you've got a number of diet changes that are going on, and you've got a number of group changes that are going on, pen moves, this, that, and the other. And those cows themselves are going to be probably quite upset when it comes to their dry matter intakes. Um, and there's probably more than something else going on there that you need to need to check, but you can successfully, um, run a DCAD diet with testing once a fortnight or even once a month. If you're confident that that diet is consistent. And you know what, I will hold my hand up at this point and I will say that I have fed negative DCAD and I haven't urine pH tested once. Okay. That's you know, I confess this is confessions. Okay. Um, but, uh, you know, we did we didn't have any problems. And it's easy to say that, you know, if haven't got any problems, why do we do it? And you can go along that, but as soon as something happens, you think, oh, I wish I'd have known this sooner. And I think this is where we need to change the way we think about urine pH testing is that it's quick, it's cheap. And it's I was going to say it's easy to do, but based on your comment earlier, maybe not, maybe not, not all the time. Um.

Andrew Jones:

For, I dunno, I just used to have a vet in North Queensland that when he wanted to do urine test, he'd just give him the little tickle he.

Vicky Ham:

Could.

Andrew Jones:

Get. Every time I have tried it. Can I make it happen? No.

Sarah Bolt:

What sort of percentage of of dry cows do we need to be tested?

Vicky Ham:

I'd aiming for um you know, if you if you've got a pen, you don't want to test anything that's just been moved into the pen. You don't want to test anything that you think is going to calve in the next three or four days, because again, they're dry matter intakes is going to be slightly off. Um, but if, if you were to test a sample of cows in that pen and you've got eighty percent of those in your target range, then I'd be absolutely happy if we're getting higher at to higher pH. So normal cow urine pH is going to be eight. Um, if you're only achieving, you know, in the low sevens, that's not enough. Okay. You must definitely be be below seven. Okay. And ideally below six point six point eight. But then again, if you're down at like five point five or even lower, then you are acidifying that diet way too much and you need to pull out some of that supplement in order to raise that, that, that urine pH. Because as soon as we get down to that low urine pH level, there will be an impact on dry matter intakes. And that has been shown in the research. So you talk earlier, Andrew, about being fearful of feeding too much salt and impact on on dry matter intakes. That's why we don't need to go to these extreme depths that we might have thought of fifteen, twenty years ago in order in order to get the benefits.

Andrew Jones:

Which is maybe where people went. I think so, and saw it not work like all these things. Give it a bit of time, refine the answers. And it suddenly worked. No different, I suppose. When I went to Oz, jeez, too many years ago now. Don't want to go anywhere near a rotary because people had had rotaries here. They've been the metal ones, they'd rusted out, blah, blah, blah, whereas they persisted with them in Oz and New Zealand and everybody. Well, not everybody, but you know what I mean. It was standard to have a rotary. And now you see more rotaries come back into this country because the technology's been developed over there and um, is being used here. So it's a similar sort of situation, isn't it?

Vicky Ham:

Yes. And the one caveat I will say is that negative DCAD diets do work slightly differently for heifers, but we know that heifers don't suffer from milk fever, so they aren't necessarily our target here when we're trying to prevent prevent milk fevers. But research has shown that actually heifers are okay and won't suffer any negative impact from being on a negative DCAD diet, but again, at a milder level. So for heifers, you're looking like minus fifty milliequivalents (mEq) (mEq) per kilo of dry matter, minus sixty. Again, any stronger and you will impact on those on those heifers as well.

Andrew Jones:

So ideally you're talking a separate heifer group.

Vicky Ham:

Well, if we were to live in an ideal world, yes we'd have we'd have a separate dry cow or transition group for heifers for our multiparous cows. And then in the fresh as well. But who has that many pens available?

Andrew Jones:

Wow. Exactly.

Vicky Ham:

But we can dream, can't we?

Andrew Jones:

It did say ideal one.

Vicky Ham:

I know one day I'm sure we will. We will say it. And I'm sure there's some large farms over in the US that that do exactly that that will have separate.

Andrew Jones:

Exactly. It comes down to numbers, doesn't it? If you've got the numbers, it's easy to have a separate pen for things like that.

Vicky Ham:

It is. And that's why most of the farms that I would see across Europe, they're fifty or sixty cows, and they operate on that single dry cow group.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, yeah. So what about post calving? I mean, ideally straight off that and onto the milking cow diet. But what about for argument's sake, calcium. I mean, I've certainly heard some people I've heard it's even higher in the states feeding um, limestone flour literally on top of the milking cow diet to get that calcium into those cows as quickly as possible.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. Well, they have, they go from naught to one hundred miles an hour in such a short space of time. And calcium requirements obviously increase drastically over that period. I mean, you know, cows will lose. Like it doesn't sound like a lot. Twenty three grams of calcium in ten liters of colostrum. But normal circulating calcium that's available to them is only ten grams. So they have that gap already in there. So they need to be able to extract that calcium from the diet quickly. And that's where those mechanisms that are turned on from from negative DCAD diet and being in that acidified state will, will help. But yes, you do definitely need to be feeding calcium in your fresh cow diet and also in your transition cow diet. You know, I, I am in the camp that yes, you do need to feed calcium alongside negative DCAD diets. Yeah, some people do, some people don't. I think there is a benefit and I would advocate feeding it.

Andrew Jones:

I've definitely done it. And I know the farmers a little bit dubious of it because they've done it in the past. But we were I can't remember what the reason was now, but they we worked out why it hadn't worked in the past. We did it then. At that point, and you'll hate me. But it was a partial DCAB diet in what people traditionally think of one, as in putting the mag chloride in flakes into the into the mix. But it worked and it worked successfully. Uh, and they were like, oh, okay, it does work if it's like all these things, if it's done properly. And as I say, I've definitely. Now, what was it someone told me? Is it somebody feeling? Was it one or one and a half percent calcium as soon as they carved on top of the um milking ration and been told was it in the States they were feeding sort of two, two and a half percent feeding even higher levels.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah.

Andrew Jones:

And, and there were benefits for doing this.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. The, you know, there is two schools of thought there. Certainly pre calving. You're looking at like a low calcium, which I would avoid because if we're excreting the calcium, you know, we've turned on those mechanisms but the cows not yet needing it, then, you know, we need to we need to replace it. Okay. And that's where feeling a higher level. So I'd be, you know, around that one percent as a minimum, um, in there. And, uh, if we do need to go on a stronger negative DCAD side, then I would vote. You also go like strong on the calcium. I mean, as a, as a really rough and crude broad, um, broad rule of thumb, you know, if you're at minus one hundred and fifty, then I would go one point five percent. You know, if you're minus one twenty, I go one point two percent, you know, that sort of thing. But again, I have fed diets with calcium levels, one point eight percent in there. And again, been absolutely fine. Um, and the same in, um, you know, in that fresh, fresh, fresh period in order to, um, again, meet the needs of that, that early lactation cow because they're going to be in negative calcium balance probably for six to eight weeks. And I think Jesse Goff's research from the nineties demonstrated that.

Sarah Bolt:

So just for clarification, that you've got your negative. So whether that's fifty eighty. And then you then add your calcium afterwards. So aren't including that calcium in that minus fifty or minus eighty.

Vicky Ham:

No, it it won't go into the it won't impact it won't impact the negative DCAD calculation as such. But so if you're feeding a diet that's below one hundred, uh, minus, you know, um, one hundred Milliequivalents then I would say be at that one percent calcium as soon as you go for a stronger negative DCAD like one twenty one fifty, then I'd be increasing your level of calcium almost to, to match.

Andrew Jones:

I will actually support you actually with your comment on, you know, I remember someone years ago saying there's no such thing as a partial DCAD you either All right. And I know we all still call it a partial because it's habit. It's habit. And that's what people in their heads it is. And so you go, yeah, it's a partial DCAB. But yeah, I know someone else said to me, no, there's no such thing. It is. You either are or aren't. It's you're messing around. Stop messing around and do one or the other.

Vicky Ham:

Exactly, exactly. And, and to your point about, you know, post and, and, and calcium in, you know, when things go wrong with negative DCAD it's because I see people, they will put the they'll leave the cow in that dry cow pen after she's calved. So she's still got access to that negative DCAD diet. As soon as that cows calves. She has no need to be in that acidified status. Okay, so she absolutely needs to stop. It needs to be completely separate pen.

Andrew Jones:

She wants a positive. No she.

Vicky Ham:

Does absolutely. You know, so it needs to be completely separate. And I see, um, you know, our farm, you know, the, the pen for those calved cows is literally right next door. So the cow still got access to that, to that negative DCAD diet and the fresh, uh, you know, fresh cow diet might just be bought in wheelbarrows. So she's not got any of that fresh. So she gets the fresh diet that's next door, you know, that's yeah, that's a classic example. And that's not going to have enough, enough calcium in it. Now that she's producing colostrum and producing milk and starting lactation.

Andrew Jones:

But it's also I was just thinking, as we're talking here, I've come across a farm before. I said, oh, you're feeding the DCAD diet. And they went, no, we're not. You've got, I think it was ammonium chloride or something. Like whatever it was, it was something like that. And they're like, you're feeding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what our feed guide tells us to feed. But you're feeding the diet. No, no we're not. It's I suppose it's understanding what you you are or aren't feeding.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. I'm sure there's people out there that maybe don't question their trade nutritionist or nutrition enough to understand why they're doing what they're doing and the importance of getting it right, or the importance to get it wrong, because I would have had exactly similar circumstances. Circumstances, albeit slightly different in that I'd go on farm and they'd say, yeah, I'm feeding DCAD diet. Okay. Or let's have a look at it. And they were adding fifty grams of magnesium chloride. It's not strong enough. And actually what they were doing or why they weren't seeing any clinical milk fevers was because they actually had a low calcium level in, in the diet. And they weren't providing any minerals, vitamins, limestone whatsoever to those, those dry cows. So they were actually, you know, getting some of the benefits from, from not providing any calcium whatsoever.

Andrew Jones:

Um, we talked about forages and we talked about protein sources. It just made me think about other good feed sources. Um, off the top of my head, if I remember right, likes of brewer's grains and nuts are also good for this, aren't they?

Vicky Ham:

And they are because they've got low, low potash values. The challenge is storing them, storing them well, so they don't get moldy because they can be a source of mycotoxins. And again, mycotoxins in your transition and frescoes is not a good thing to be to be feeding and also availability and consistency. You know, I mentioned earlier about DCAD diets aren't complicated, but they do need to be consistent. And Brewer's grains is one of those feedstuffs that doesn't always end up being being consistent either through dry matter, um, quality availability in there. But yeah, you know, they are a great feedstuff for, for dry cows, you've just got to be able to get them and get them regularly in order to, to manage it.

Andrew Jones:

Any other feedstuffs you particularly like obviously rape you said.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah, I do, I do like, uh, I do like rape. So. Well, you know, it was one of the cheaper protein sources, but, uh, soyas come back, you know, uh, it's probably a little bit more comparable on a crude protein percentage these days.

Andrew Jones:

Uh, I did one literally last week and soya was a pound a unit cheaper on crude protein compared to rape.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah, there we go.

Andrew Jones:

And admittedly, that's for a beef diet. But we were if you looked at per unit protein, soya worked out cheaper.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. I think when it comes to protein the sauce will make a difference. But as long as we hit that twelve to thirteen hundred grams of metabolizable protein in those dry cows, that's that's the key thing. And depending on some of the, the diets that you might be feeding can be quite tough to achieve. Um, that, that level. Um, you know, if we're sticking in a lot of minerals in there that aren't providing additional nutrients as well, then it could be quite, it could be quite a tough challenge to, to hit that target because Sarah, you mentioned negative energy balance. I've mentioned negative calcium balance. Well, negative protein balance is just as important in there as well. In cows will lose protein muscle um function. And that in itself will kick start that inflammation cycle. And guess what? Then we'll start and we'll be in a vicious, vicious circle again. There's a theme developing here, isn't there?

Andrew Jones:

It does seem like it doesn't it, that uh, it just shows. And we've talked about impact, just not on the, the cow, but also its offspring and potentially its offspring's offspring. It just shows how important it is to get this right.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah. If you're going to invest anywhere in your production cycle, this is the place to do it. Okay.

Andrew Jones:

And we're not just, yes, we're talking the nutritional side of things, but it's also making sure they've got space to eat, space to drink, space to lie. The light going to put my CowSignals®® hat on a minute. But all of those, those things as well are massively important.

Sarah Bolt:

Treat them like princesses. Not not in the dark, dingy corner of the shed.

Vicky Ham:

Yeah, you. You beat me to it, Sarah. That's exactly what I was going to say. And, you know, I think we have come a long way over the last twenty or thirty years in the conditions that we put our dry cows in. They because they weren't, you know, producing animals, they were almost forgotten about. And thankfully, that isn't the case today. And they are given better, um, better environments, better conditions. But still we see some of these transition. Transition cow diseases, um, you know, occur. So there's always improvements that, that, that can be done. And um, you mentioned, you know, stocking rates. I think, I think that's a biggie. And I think that's, you know, in, in a drive to, um, you know, manage our margins these days and, uh, herds getting bigger stocking densities in dry cow pens. It's the one place that it really comes under pressure. And that pen doesn't need to be one hundred percent stock to be overstocked. You know that that pen wants to be eighty percent, eighty five percent stocked and that's full.

Sarah Bolt:

I say you start working out the actual measurements. I can never remember them off the top of my head. I want to say, is it seven and a half square meters? I think it's and.

Vicky Ham:

Then plus.

Sarah Bolt:

And then plus a liter for every plus a a meter squared for every.

Vicky Ham:

Meter squared for every thousand. Yeah. For every thousand. So a fourteen, you know, a fourteen zero zero zero liter Holstein cows gonna want fourteen meters squared of line space.

Andrew Jones:

The one off top of my head is usually talk ten as a minimum what it should be. So yeah, exactly. It just shows how much you and you do see them. It is unfortunately the, that is the um, what's the word I'm looking for that the pinch point, as you say, is usually at that point.

Vicky Ham:

Yes. Because that is the only group where the cow decides when she moves out.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah.

Vicky Ham:

Every other group, you as the hers person manager, you know, decides when she leaves that group, but not in that not in that transition care, not in that dry care. It's her decision when she when she leaves. And that's, that's why we see it as a, as as a bottleneck.

Andrew Jones:

Shows how important getting all of this right is. Um, but, uh, looking at the time, Vicky, uh, if we could keep going with this conversation, I know for sure, but it's time we start wrapping this up. So, um, any last words of wisdom from yourself.

Vicky Ham:

Just to say that negative DCAD diets don't need to be complicated. They need to be consistent. And they are absolutely the most researched and most beneficial to postpartum cow production and health, uh, strategy out there that, that we have available to us.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah. And not be afraid of them here in the UK, which it seems, I think we've become a little bit. Sarah.

Sarah Bolt:

Well, Ida came into this conversation. Um, probably knowing very little about DCAB diets. Um, probably just something that I've never not a nutritionist. I'm aware that they exist, but don't really know much about them and have again been perhaps put off by, by some of the, the previous experience of, of some farmers. But I think the message that I've got today is that actually it can be simple, it can be easy to do. And the benefits totally outweigh any negatives that that might be seen in, in change or, or anything else. So yeah, I'm really yeah. If it was down to me, I'd give it a go.

Vicky Ham:

I'm glad I've convinced you, Sarah.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I was going to say that's kind of what I was going to go with. If you're saying that that that's I'd say that's a positive because I suppose that was the whole point. Why I wanted this conversation with Vicky was DCAB, I will say, is still looked at by some people as a dirty word. And whether it's because they're fearful or whatever, for whatever reason, and people have this image of running around with urine sticks and all of these sorts of things, whereas actually, like you say, the research is showing more and more and more that it's, it's the most beneficial system out there. I'm not saying there aren't isn't a place for the other systems. You know, as we ran through pretty much all of them last year with Donald, but this is the one that is showing that there are the most benefits from. So let's have this conversation. Let's get people talking about it. Let's be thinking about it. So, um, and as I say, I think there are probably people out there who are doing a decap and don't even realize they're doing a decap diet. Um, but otherwise, no, uh, I would like to thank Vicky very much for her time. That's been fantastic. Been a great conversation. Um, but otherwise I guess it's a good bye from me.

Sarah Bolt:

And goodbye from me.

Vicky Ham:

And a good bye from them.

Andrew Jones:

Thank you.

Vicky Ham:

Arm & Hammer Animal Nutrition are pleased to support ChewintheCud Podcast. We're all in when it comes to supporting healthy productive farm animals. Please visit ahanimalnutrition.com for more information.

Andrew Jones:

Thank you for listening to the ChewintheCud Podcast, where we bring you conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England, and listened to around the world. And now for the really boring bit I'm afraid — the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of ChewintheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd, and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Ltd visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye. Please note this transcript was generated using AI transcription software and speaker detection. Despite best efforts to ensure accuracy, there may be errors in the final piece.