ChewintheCud Podcast
Andrew Jones and Sarah Bolt bring you kitchen table conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England and listened to around the world. Now in its fifth year, each episode Andrew and Sarah are joined by a specialist from inside or outside the industry to discuss the practical and technical topics that matter to dairy farmers, advisers, and other industry professionals. They want to make you think about what you are doing — and ask yourself whether it could be done differently.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast, or on Facebook and LinkedIn as ChewintheCud Ltd. You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com.
ChewintheCud Podcast
More Copper Isn't Always Better!
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Published abattoir research found over 40% of cull cows had toxic levels of copper in their livers. Pull back to elevated concentrations and Annie Williams, independent mineral nutrition consultant at Mineral Advice Ltd, suggests more than half of UK dairy cows may be above the threshold — potentially suppressing performance in ways that are almost impossible to distinguish from deficiency. In this conversation, we examine why copper excess is a far more widespread problem than most farmers and advisers currently recognise, and what can realistically be done about it.
The conversation covers the limits of blood testing, why liver biopsy is the only reliable measure of copper status, and how to conduct a proper mineral audit that accounts for every copper input across an animal's lifetime — including concentrates, forages, water, injectables, drenches, and boluses. Annie explains the role of antagonists, why grass-based systems carry higher risk than housed TMR, what palm kernel extract means for formulation, and how copper accumulated in the calf shed follows a heifer right into the milking herd.
The area where knowledge is thinnest — and where Annie expects the most significant development — is the pre-ruminant calf. Adult cattle absorb less than 10% of dietary copper; a pre-ruminant calf bypasses the rumen entirely and absorbs somewhere between 60 and 80%. Current guidance recommends 5 mg/kg dry matter in calf milk replacer, five times what whole milk naturally contains, and nobody is entirely sure where that figure originated. Research underway at Harper Adams, led by PhD student Amy Marsh, is trying to establish what the correct formulation targets should be. If you rear your own calves in the UK or Ireland and are willing to supply survey data and have products sampled, the project would welcome your involvement — find out more at www.mineral-advice.com.
This episode was recorded in June 2026, and all information was correct at the time of recording. Please note this transcript was generated using AI transcription software — despite best efforts to ensure accuracy, there may be some errors in the final piece.
Are you confident your current mineral programme accounts for the full lifetime copper picture — from calf milk replacer through to the milking herd? Share this episode with someone who might find it useful, and if you enjoy ChewintheCud Podcast, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen.
For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast, or on Facebook and LinkedIn as ChewintheCud Ltd . You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com.
This is the ChewintheCud Podcast — conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England and listened to around the world. Hello, my name is Andrew Jones and with me as always is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?
Sarah Bolt:I'm very well, thank you Andrew. Just been on holiday for a week, so I'm fully refreshed. How are you?
Andrew Jones:Yeah, I'm all right. Go anywhere exciting?
Sarah Bolt:I've been up to Yorkshire, so, uh, quite a long way north from, uh, from Somerset here. And, uh, lots of silage and haymaking going on. Um, certainly a bit cooler than than down here. So it was all very nice.
Andrew Jones:It's certainly been a bit warm. And on that note, I hope everyone's been looking after themselves and the cows, making sure you're keeping in the shade and keeping well hydrated. Um, and also I'm shamelessly going to say, if you haven't already, listen back to our podcast from early May talking about skin cancer and melanoma. Very, very topical or should be at the moment with the weather we've had. Um, moving on to today's, we're talking to our guest about copper, um, and particularly excess copper. Um, and I think, uh, I think they're right. I mean, the facts show that, uh, we are probably overfeeding copper. So it's one well worth listening to. Also mentioned by our guest is the fact that she's working with a PhD student from Harper Adams. Uh, and between them, they're looking to try and establish some baselines, some more up to date information for what calves and young stock should be having in terms of copper levels. So if you're willing to participate and maybe have, um, some of your feed sampled, that could be your milk replacer and your young stock feed. Um, there are links in today's show notes and on the article on the website, um, that link to, um, where you can find out more information about this and how you can participate in the survey, if that's what you want to do.
Sarah Bolt:It's always really important, isn't it, that we can get as many farmers participating in these things as possible because it all helps drive the knowledge forward.
Andrew Jones:Well, exactly. And I mean, as we discuss, um, in the podcast, it was where does today's level come from? And nobody seems to actually know. It's just a line that everybody uses. So, you know, it'd be really good, as you say, to get as many people participating as possible to try and find, uh, maybe a new level for what young stock should be. Um, but other than that, I guess it's time to say go and enjoy.
Kim Verschueren:Farming today is a constant balance, rising costs, tighter margins, and the need to get more from every input. At Kemin, we understand the complexity you manage every day. As a family-owned company, we've built our business on helping producers operate more efficiently and with greater confidence. That's why we work alongside you, delivering science-backed solutions that support performance, protect feed quality, and optimise results across your operation. Kemin helps you turn today's challenges into measurable progress that drives long-term profitability.
Andrew Jones:This episode is brought to you by ChewintheCud Ltd — completely independent, practical nutrition advice for the dairy and beef industries. Whether you need nutrition support, CowSignals® advice and training, or RoMS accredited mobility scoring, we tailor the advice to your farm and your requirements. For the full range of services visit www.chewinthecud.com or email nutrition@chewinthecud.com. This episode is also brought to you by ChewintheCud Ltd — we now offer first aid training designed for agriculture and farming, delivered by a registered First Aid at Work trainer and experienced Minor Injuries Practitioner. For more details visit www.chewinthecud.com or email training@chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones,
Sarah Bolt:and I'm Sarah Bolt.
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Andrew Jones:Enjoy today's episode. Hello and welcome back to ChewintheCud Podcast. And our guest today is Annie Williams. Hello, Annie.
Annie Williams:Hi, Andrew.
Andrew Jones:How are you doing?
Annie Williams:Yeah. I'm great, thank you. How are you?
Andrew Jones:I'm not too bad. Not too bad. Thank you. Now, before we get on to our topic, um, Annie and I have been talking about doing this. It's been a little while. We've talked about this, isn't it? But we finally, after Annie did some, uh, webinars earlier this year, and I was listening to the one with her on, uh, dairy, I sent her an email and said, Annie, it's about time we did this. And I had several ideas which were transition minerals, decaf versus binder copper or more or less is better. And Annie just came back and said, I really love to do excess copper. And it's like, yeah, great, let's get on with it. And then, funnily enough, we were both at the Treehouse Sustainability Conference this year, weren't we? And funnily enough, one of their speakers kind of was talking about the same thing.
Annie Williams:Yeah, definitely. I think it's a topic that's maybe finally, some people would probably say they've been working in nutrition a long time, finally getting some attention, finally getting some data behind it. And hopefully we can get to a place where instead of talking about it as a problem, we work out how how we're solving it.
Andrew Jones:Which which would be good. But before we do that, Annie, like usual, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.
Annie Williams:Um, so probably like a lot of people, I left school not knowing what I wanted to do at all. Uh, I knew I really liked animals, primarily horses, which is not something you should say to a dairy audience. Really? Is it? But horses were were my thing growing up. And I still have horses now. So I left school and thought, I've got no idea what I want to do. and I went to work for a year for a company that some people probably heard of called Agroman, um, doing Boluses probably most well known for the all trace range. And at that point, I knew absolutely nothing about nutrition at all. They were just a business that was local to me and would employ me for a year without a degree. So I went and worked in various departments for them. Really liked working in R&D and I thought, okay, if I'm going to do that, maybe I should go and get a degree. So I went to Liverpool to get a degree in Bioveterinary science. Went straight on from there to Nottingham to get a master's in Animal Nutrition. All in between I worked for Agroman, moving around various departments, everything from the factory floor to sales to getting to do some hopefully quite exciting R&D on new products. So then they employed me when I finished my master's in animal Nutrition. After about a year, I told them I'm getting a little bit bored now. I might go and do something different. You'll get that impression through my whole career that I don't sit still for very long. And they said, okay, we really don't want to lose you. How about you go and do a PhD and we'll sponsor your PhD? So I did that, went to Harper Adams, did a PhD in mineral bioavailability, specifically in copper and zinc, and then again took on a export role. So travelled around Europe, New Zealand, South Africa for a couple of years, spent about seventy percent of my time overseas selling boluses, giving technical explanations on trace elements, minerals, all that sort of thing. Then decided maybe I wanted to go and do something different. So took a job for what was HCL at the time is now the The UK Aquatic Centre did that for three years and then when it became the UK Aquatic Centre, my role became much broader, so we had to cover all sectors of agriculture. I decided that leaving livestock was not for me. I wanted to stay in livestock or specifically in dairy. So I left there, set up my own consultancy, doing mineral nutrition on farm, and then also took a job in sustainability for Arla. So looking after what Arla do in terms of feed, nutrition, innovation on farm. During that time also did a Nuffield scholarship which was mineral advice in ruminants. Are we getting it right? So trying to dig into the detail of advice given on farm, whether it's good advice, does it differ countries globally who's giving better advice? Who's more ambitious and the advice that they're giving. What can we learn? And off the back of that, I've been very lucky to now work in terms of mineral consultancy in the UK, but primarily actually in the US and Canada is where I have a lot of clients. And that kind of brings us up to where we are today. So doing a split between consultancy and a sustainability global role at Arla.
Andrew Jones:Interesting day job. Well interesting mix of jobs.
Sarah Bolt:Just goes to show you never know where you're going to going to go on your career journey.
Annie Williams:Absolutely not. Take the opportunities. You never know.
Andrew Jones:Well I think we should start with some basics. But before we do, I mean, I guess I should sort of, I suppose, set the scene a little bit. I know myself, I've come across clients that you look at their minerals and when you get someone else to look at them, you know, minerals aren't my specialty. So I usually do get somebody else involved to get comments going. Well, there are an excess copper really. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is from another manufacturer here in the UK. And I'm even going to take a step back. I mean, um, I'm going to say thirty five years ago now showing my age, unfortunately, you know, I certainly remember my father jabbing cows with um, copper under the skin, uh, because it was felt that it was needed because we had a fertility problem and well, that's what I remember of it. I may be wrong, you know, it's a long time ago and I wasn't involved in the farming the way that I later became. Um, so, so there's been a lot about copper in the past. And I suppose historically people have thought it's a good thing, but maybe why don't we start a little bit, um, with the different types of copper available just to give people a bit of reminder of the difference between Sulphates and chelates and the different, the different oxides and what all those things mean before we actually get into the, um, bits and pieces about copper.
Annie Williams:Yeah. Of course. I know you're right, Andrew. Maybe we should caveat this with deficiency still does exist, even in a world where we're primarily talking about excesses. Um, in terms of different types. There's copper oxide. Copper sulfate. They would be what we classify as inorganics. That would be where we, when we started supplementing cows with copper, we would have been using one of those two sources. And in the grand scheme, of all the copper supplements that are out there, they would have relatively low bioavailability. There tend to be what we find in standard mineral packs or buckets, licks, boluses, drenches, all that sort of thing would tend to be one of those inorganic sources. And then I guess as we've seen the mineral market develop, there's new sources available on the market. So probably the critical ones being a chelated. So that's a copper source bound to an amino acid to try and improve its bioavailability. That means that it's not just absorbed through a traditional copper transporter, but hopefully we get some absorption through an amino acid transporter as well. And then the other sort of classification that you would certainly see commonly on the market in the UK and the USA would be hydroxy minerals, which I kind of put between your traditional inorganic and your more advanced organic or chelate as something that is on the market as having a higher bioavailability. Probably not quite as high as a chelate.
Andrew Jones:What's the difference in the bioavailabilities of these different products? Roughly, I'm assuming they're probably different depending on the mineral and etc. but roughly, is it like two to one or where does it where do they sit as they progress?
Annie Williams:Yeah, maybe we should actually start because I think people are always surprised by how low the bioavailability of some of these supplements is. So copper oxide in terms of its availability, we'd be looking at about four percent available, which people are then like, okay, why are we worried about excess copper? If we're talking about a supplement that's only four percent available? But for a lot of the inorganics, whether we're talking copper or other trace minerals, we are talking quite low availability. So you've got copper oxide about four percent sulfates about double that. So around about eight percent. And then your key lakes hitting over ten percent, maybe towards twenty percent. So still quite a lot of other mineral that's not absorbed within those systems. And Chelates. It's hard to put a number on because the manufacturing is important. So how well they're binding it to the amino acid, what the mechanism of release is, does it release in the room and all the abomasum. All affects how available they are to the animal.
Andrew Jones:But really, it's relative of all of them, a relative low availabilities, aren't they? Even at twenty percent? That's a relatively low availability, which, you know, maybe putting it simply, that's eighty percent of what you're feeding is going out the back end and being wasted.
Sarah Bolt:So putting that in terms of what farmers can ask their mineral suppliers as to, you know, what questions should they be asking about the copper. So obviously, one is, is it inorganic or is it related or the hydroxy. But then as you say, then the the chelates then are different availabilities. What sort of questions should the farmers actually be asking I think.
Annie Williams:So it's about how well they're being manufactured, what what control is in place to know that the product that we're getting is always the same when it's put into that mineral pack on farm. Therefore, how much do we know about it? because I think that the major message around, um, some of the maybe more expensive mineral products that we see on farm is when we're looking at how much an animal actually requires, we're generally working off milligrams of the actual metal itself. So if we're talking about copper oxide, we're converting copper oxide to copper. If we're talking about hydroxy copper, we're converting it to copper and formulating, let's say, for example, at ten milligrams per kilogram dry matter, if we're using a source that's more available, it might be more expensive, but we should be able to use less of it to achieve the same outcome in terms of how that animal responds, in order to have the confidence to be able to formulate like that, we have to have the quality and consistency in the product. And that's where it comes to whether we've got control of that or not. I mean, I would say in general, in sort of, um, mineral packs, we should have, we should have control over those more, uh, bioavailable sources in terms of their quality. The opposite end of the market where we see things like boluses. That's where we see a real discrepancy in how well those products are actually made. Those that talk to me will know I've got a real bee in my bonnet about boluses and their quality, or sometimes lack of quality, and I would always be asking manufacturers for data. If you want, if you've got a claim, show me the data that that proves your claim is true. So if you've got a bolus that's supposed to last for six months, show me that data from a cow or from a sheep, whatever we're talking about to say that that will release a six months. Or if we're talking about a copper sauce that you're saying is twice as available. Okay, show me the data that indicates that that's the case.
Andrew Jones:Is there a situation when using one is better than using the other, or is it simply a case of you're paying for more availability. So you should be using less of it.
Annie Williams:There are some situations where one is better than the other, depending on the system that we're working in and therefore what we might be trying to achieve. For example, certainly within some of our UK systems, we would have relatively high levels of copper antagonism, relatively high amounts of iron, molybdenum, sulphur coming into the diet. If that's a particular challenge and we're really trying to overcome that, one of the ways in which we can potentially achieve that is by using a different copper source that is less subject to antagonism within the rumen. There's also some work suggesting around potentially improvements in NDF digestibility from using some of the collated sources over Sulphates. I would say that research is not really, really solid, but there is some data out there suggesting that Sulphates may have an impact in the rumen and therefore particularly maybe in higher performing dairy cows, where we're absolutely trying to optimise that rumen. We might look at using different sources of minerals just to mitigate that effect.
Andrew Jones:And so that's what I usually get told is when you know, you've got higher producing cow or you better be using those chelates. That's that's when you should be using it. So it was good to just good to ask that to you. But we're here to talk about copper before we start moving in on to the excesses or maybe deficiencies of copper. What is copper important for? What is it used for within within the animal.
Annie Williams:Copper is important for almost every biological process in the animal, so it involved in almost three hundred enzymes in the body, which means that probably excesses or deficiencies in copper, we can pick up in all sorts of different metrics. So when we do research, we're primarily looking at fertility. We're looking at growth and we're looking at the immune system all as being affected by a deficiency in copper, but also an excess in copper, and primarily looking at how it accumulates in the liver, and therefore potential problems that we can get from excess accumulation in the liver.
Andrew Jones:So it's a very important mineral to be having because you say it's used so widely, but obviously by the sounds of it, I mean, I did a little bit of research before, um, we came on. Now you can tell me if this is true or not. But it was. A survey suggests fifty percent of dairy cattle in the UK have elevated liver copper concentrations. Now you tell me. You'd know better about this than me. Do you think that's probably the case? By the sounds of it. Well, it's an important thing. It's something that we've already caveated. There can be deficiencies, but by the sounds of it, it sounds like a lot of the time there are excesses out there.
Annie Williams:Yeah, I'd say that that is absolutely true. If we look at the published literature that was published probably around probably more than ten years ago, where they really went into abattoirs and looked at cull cows and their liver copper concentrations, over forty percent of them were over the toxic range. So then if we come down from toxic to what we qualify as elevated, then yeah, I'd suggest that more than fifty percent of dairy cows are over that threshold. And we are potentially inhibiting their performance because of those excessive levels of copper in the liver.
Sarah Bolt:So picking up on that, um, sort of I'm going back maybe sort of ten or so years ago, but there weren't that many vets that would be confident to give a live liver biopsy. Now I know that that's something in New Zealand is like they do it all the time. And therefore vets that have been to New Zealand tend to be much more confident in doing it. Is that still the case? Do we still see that as being one of the issues that we don't get as many live liver biopsies as we could do, to therefore be able to say whether we're getting that excess or not?
Annie Williams:Yeah. That's interesting, Sarah, because I saw I spent some time in New Zealand when I was on my Nuffield and tried to understand how they're using that data and what they're, what they're actually doing with it in terms of decision making on farm. And actually my conclusion was maybe they're not using it as much as they should be. So although they're collecting the data, are they actually, is it actually driving action with maybe a different question? I wasn't actually sure. And I was only there five weeks. So you can't judge a whole country in that time. But yeah, I'm not sure that I really saw a huge oh, we've got, we've done these livers. They've given us this result. They're saying we shouldn't use any copper, but we're going to use a little bit anyway because we always do kind of thing. But there's definitely yeah, you're absolutely right. In the UK, I still think we see a mix of those vets that are confident and will go in and say, yeah, absolutely, let's biopsy these cows, let's have a look. And I'm very lucky that I work with some vets that when you say, can we have a look at this? I think we need more data. They absolutely will. Versus those that where it's still a bit of a foreign concept to liver biopsy, live cattle. And what are we going to gain from it? Is there some risk here? I still think that we've got kind of vets in both camps there.
Sarah Bolt:So the traditional blood testing, which is sort of, I guess the other way of doing it. What are what is the difference between blood testing and and liver biopsies?
Annie Williams:I'd probably go as far to say that there is no point blood testing for copper unless you're think that you've got a copper deficiency, in which case you could pick that up in the blood. The way in which this would apply to cattle or to sheep. The way in which they they control their blood. Copper is within a really, really tight range. So what happens is we feed those cows copper. They ingest it. Obviously, we get that absorption that we've talked about that is actually relatively small. that goes in the blood and is immediately transported to the liver. They accumulate it within the liver, and then they control how much they release back into the blood within a really, really narrow range. So unless that liver is just about to run out of copper and therefore can't release any more, the bloods will always come out at the same number. If we reach a point where the liver has got so much copper in it, it can't accumulate anymore. We're on the verge of toxicity. Hemolytic crisis. That's when it'll release copper back into the blood. And we'll see bloods that are indicative of copper toxicity and high. But when you're in yeah it's too late. When you're in that normal window and you get a blood result. So we'd be looking for a blood result between nine and nineteen. And we generally find that most animals sit a specific number and don't really move from that number. You don't know where that means you are in terms of your liver. You could be about to run out. You could be copper toxic. It'll still say ten on your blood result and it'll say ten two months later and two months later after that. So blood copper, not really that helpful when we're trying to understand what the status of that animal is.
Andrew Jones:I think you've probably answered what my next question was going to be, which was why does the excess copper accumulate so readily? And why don't cows just excrete it? But I think what you said is it goes to liver, it sits there and the liver regulates. Then what goes out in the blood? I think basically what you said isn't it exactly that.
Annie Williams:And it's an evolutionary thing. It's something that they are designed to do because they're designed to live off diets that are pretty poor in terms of copper content. And therefore it makes sense that when copper's available, you should accumulate it so that you don't run out later down the line. It just turns out that the way that we produce livestock these days, that that doesn't quite fit the way they've evolved.
Sarah Bolt:So other than measuring it in the cow, what can we do to measure what's going into into the animal, I guess is the other the other side of it is to, you know, sort of um feed, um forage, I guess water as well makes a difference.
Annie Williams:Yeah, absolutely. All of those things. And that's what I would do a lot of work on regularly, like a full mineral audit. What's going into these animals in terms of concentrate? What's going into them? If you're feeding any straights, what's the composition of the forage? What's going in in terms of water? And I guess in terms of forage and water, we're not only interested in the copper content of those things, we're also interested in the antagonism that's coming into those. So how much sulfur is there? How much iron is there? How much molybdenum is there, and how is that going to affect absorption of copper? We're also interested in any other supplement they've had. So whether that's an injectable, whether that's a drench, whether perhaps we're putting buckets out to dry cows that have been turned out or something like that. What's the what's the copper content of all those where the complexity comes in with copper, I guess, compared to a lot of other minerals is when I'm doing that sort of audit work, you're not just interested in what's happening to that animal right now, but I kind of need to know what's happened to it through its life. Where did it start as a calf? Did it have milk replacer and starter, or is this something that's had whole milk. And then what's that weaning process? Have they then been turned out onto grass where there was antagonism? Have we reared them inside where perhaps we've had more copper in that diet? So also looking at that accumulation that's possible through the through the lifetime of that animal to give us an indication of what might be happening to it at the point that we're looking at it.
Sarah Bolt:So you've used the word antagonism quite a few times there. Can we sort of go back to basics and really tell us what you mean by that and what the implications are of it.
Annie Williams:Antagonism in this context is primarily for copper talking about sulphur, molybdenum and iron, which when they're in the diet, go into the rumen alongside copper and they bind the copper. When they bind that copper in the rumen, they make it Unavailable for absorption for the animal. So essentially, although the copper is there and present, it goes all the way through the digestive tract and is excreted bound to one of those antagonists. Diets can be really variable in antagonism. So we would see, for example, grass based diets traditionally much higher in antagonism because of iron and molybdenum versus more intensively fed TMR. Um, whether we're feeding lots of cake, that sort of thing, where we've got much less of those elements present in the diet.
Andrew Jones:Is the simple answer. If you've got the antagonists to feed more, because then you're feeding more than what the antagonists are to give you what's available. Or is that a bit of a simple answer?
Annie Williams:No, I think that that is absolutely the right answer. The only thing maybe I would add is I think sometimes we overdo the effect of those antagonists. Coming back to what you were saying at the start, Andrea. Traditionally, thinking about copper deficiency and it having an effect on various things like fertility. I think probably some of that narrative came from people looking at diets. And I get it all the time. People ring me up with their forage analysis and say, my molybdenum, the bar on it is red. That must be really bad. I must need to feed more copper. Whereas actually, I think that message has come through really clearly in the industry that we get copper antagonism almost to the point where it's gone too far and people overdo its effect. And I'll look at analysis and go, oh, it doesn't look that bad. I think I think we're fine. Like that's a, that's a normal sort of ish level going on there. We don't need to massively increase the copper. Let's leave it where it is.
Andrew Jones:And to be honest with you, it's the overall balance of the diet, isn't it? It's not just what the foragers are. So, you know, you've got to be looking at the whole picture, not just one snapshot of that thing. But if we take a look at the range, then we primarily here to talk about excess. Let's talk about what deficiency does. Now maybe this is one I think you said to me, was it the trail conference that a certain well known vet had made a comment that everyone goes, oh, they must be copper deficient and wishes he'd never said that. Now I'm not going to name the vet. You can if you want. That's up to you. But is that true? You know, is is that a misdemeanor that let's be honest, everybody in the industry knows. You see that ginger reddish tinge? The first thing you go is copper deficient.
Annie Williams:Yeah. It drives me mad. I put something on my my Instagram about it because people send me pictures of cows and they won't even be their own cows. They'll just send me pictures and say, these are definitely copper deficient, aren't they? And I'm like, you cannot tell that just by looking at them. So what you're referring to is, is a thing that people say rusty coat means a copper deficiency. Yes, it can be a sign, but it's not. If you were a vet, you would say it's not a differential diagnosis. There's other things that it can be. For example, it can literally be sunlight that has bleached the coat of those animals, and then they look like they're a bit rusty coated. I wouldn't be using it as a yes. Those animals definitely need more copper. I'd need to see more evidence that that was the case before assuming that you've got a copper deficiency, and definitely before assuming you've got a copper deficiency in a dairy cow.
Andrew Jones:So would you maybe say, look, it's an initial sign that maybe if you've got a problem is an indication where maybe you should start investigating, but don't take it as gospel, that that's definitely what it is.
Annie Williams:Yeah, absolutely. that there could be lots of reasons why that's happening. So let's, let's put it into the system and evaluate whether we think that's true or not.
Andrew Jones:That's good. So so what are some of the symptoms of copper deficiency then? Because we said we'll start there and then move our way up across the spectrum.
Annie Williams:And I guess this is the challenge with copper, as is actually probably the case with a lot of minerals. That deficiency looks very similar to excess deficiency. We would have poor growth rates, we would have poor fertility. We would perhaps have animals within a group where and we see this on farm regularly, don't we, where you've kind of got a disease burden that kind of won't go away. And you're like, why? Why does this particular group of animals seem more prone to disease than these other groups that I've had on the farm previously? Just an indication that the immune system is not working as well as it could be. But yeah, so they would be the primary things that we'd see in deficiency. There would also be the primary things that we would see in excess.
Andrew Jones:Not not helping here are you? So so obviously when everything we move across the spectrum, you've got the deficiency. When things are good, I'm guessing things are good. But what you're saying is when they're in excess, they're the same symptoms. Are there any other symptoms as well?
Annie Williams:Excess. What what happens in excess is excess is due to too much accumulation of copper in the liver. And I'm really careful in my wording there because I used to call it too much storage. But I think storage sounds like a good thing and accumulation perhaps sounds like a bad thing. So I've kind of changed my language around that a little bit to say copper accumulation. And what we effectively get with excessive copper accumulation is an effect on the liver. That is the closest thing we can liken it to is an alcoholic person. So the symptoms that we would see in terms of poor liver health would be similar in a person to a cow that's got an excess of copper. That's the way that I tend to explain it to people to really get across that. We do not want to see this excessive copper in the liver. And what we would tend to see is things like poor conception rates. We actually tend to find that, particularly in younger animals, perhaps they grow quite well. But then actually when it comes to getting them in calf, that's quite a challenge. Um, that can be an indication that perhaps we've got some sort of pressure on the liver in that situation. Things like not responding to, to vaccines as well as they should be. And again, that's difficult because how do you start to assess that? How do you start to understand whether that's the case, and I guess this is probably one of the challenges that we've got, that we can measure these things directly within research trials, but what are we actually looking for on farm? Can be quite difficult until we get to the point where we have got animals dropping dead because of copper toxicity, trying to actually tie it down to. Absolutely. This is what you would see if you had a problem on your farm. It's really quite difficult.
Andrew Jones:Okay. I was going to say that was going to be my, my sort of next question, I guess, was how quickly, how soon or, you know, obviously death is the ultimate, but at what point do does death happen? But what you're saying is it can vary from farm to farm, because I guess it all depends on what's there and how long it's taking to build, etcetera, etcetera.
Annie Williams:Yeah, absolutely. And cattle are pretty resilient. So we haven't got cows dropping dead everywhere. In fact, I think I looked up how many cows we have died before coming onto the podcast, and I'm going to look it up. One hundred and forty eight between twenty thirteen and twenty twenty four that APhA have reported as because of copper toxicity, that was the primary cause.
Andrew Jones:Which which relatively isn't a big number.
Annie Williams:Relatively small. So it's trying to focus on this sort of subclinical area of what are we losing in terms of performance is where it's much harder to start to, to quantify those impacts and understand, certainly within the UK herd, what is the effect that we're having? How can we start to look at some of the research that's out there and multiply that up to say, okay, well, if we're having this much reduction on conception, if we're having this much change in growth, what are the overall impacts? I think that's probably the next stage that we need to go to in research, so that we can actually really put some performance data forward onto farm and say, okay, these are if you've got copper excesses, this is how it's impacting your performance and this is how it's impacting your bottom line.
Sarah Bolt:And equally, if it's, if it's an excess, they're actually feeding something that they don't need to be feeding and actually could be saving themselves, spending the money on that in the first, in the first place. So it's a, it's a, it's a win win both ways, isn't it?
Annie Williams:Yeah. For sure. Definitely.
Andrew Jones:You mentioned UK. What about the rest of the world? Because I mean, again looking at some bits and pieces I see. Is it NASEM 2021. Um revised dry cow copper requirements upward by forty percent while high producing cow requirements actually decreased by forty five percent. So there's definitely. Updates that have come, you know, as an industry, we're realizing something. But what what do you see? You say you're obviously working around the world. What do you see in terms of copper elsewhere in the world?
Annie Williams:Yeah. So those updates from NASA are interesting because that was because they changed the way that they calculate mineral requirements for cows across the board. So they basically changed from a body weight basis to a dry matter intake basis. When you think about that in terms of what a dry cow eats compared to a lactating cow, you're kind of landing at the same number by changing the way that you calculate. So that kind of makes sense working across the world, I would say. We used to see a very similar picture in the US compared to the UK in terms of copper being supplied in excess. I don't see anywhere near that level anymore. They've drastically reduced their their copper inputs in the US. That's down to a lot of work from the academics over there. They're very, very good at translating research into practice and really getting out there and speaking to nutritionists, putting the evidence forward and saying, this is why we need to do it.
Sarah Bolt:They've got great extension teams out there, haven't they? You know, compared to, to, to what we've got in the UK or even in New Zealand, that the US have got some fantastic extension.
Annie Williams:Yeah, amazing. And they do some amazing work. So I love working out there. I actually went out there on my Nuffield and thought I probably shouldn't say this, but I actually thought I'd hate it and I absolutely loved it. And I now have a lot of clients over in the US that I do all their mineral formulating for love, working with clients out there, but I think we should caveat that they that they do have an easier system when it comes to something like this. Whereas we're battling with how much copper does a cow need and a grazing system? How much copper do they need in a fully housed TMR? What if you're doing something in the middle of those two systems? Really, when I'm feeding herds in the US, I know what system they're going into as a calf. I know how they're going to be reared as young stock, and then I know the majority of their time they're coming into a fully housed TMR based on maize silage.
Andrew Jones:They don't have the grass do they? They don't have the that's the big variability is the grass. And they're not feeding grass in the way that we are here.
Annie Williams:No. And you know, when you talk to them and we're talking about the challenges of, say, feeding dry cows, and you're like, the only raw material I've got available is grass silage. They just think that's crazy. They're like, what are you talking about? Trying to feed grass silage to a dry cow. But it means that when we think about this lifetime supply of copper, it's much more controllable in theirs. Whereas we might switch and say we might have a calf on milk replacer and starter, we might wean them and say, oh, actually, we're going to chuck these out in some fields that are four miles from the farm and they'll be all right until they've grown a bit. Then maybe we're going to bring them back in for winter growth rates, perhaps not quite where we want them. So we're going to throw a load of concentrate feed at them. Then maybe they'll go out again. And then maybe we're bringing them into a fully housed dairy system. Or we could be doing something entirely different to that. So trying to track that supply of copper through their life is really difficult. Not so difficult in an American system, which is probably why they've been a little bit more successful than we have in reducing some of these excesses. Not saying they're still not there because we definitely they definitely are, but not to the level I think that we see over here and in New Zealand, we would definitely see excesses going into cattle in New Zealand as well.
Andrew Jones:So Sarah mentioned testing feeds and forages. Are there any feeds in particular that, um, people should be looking out for? Because what I'm thinking in my head is palm kernel extract. And for some, I know there are some milk bars that are not happy or don't want you using that anymore. But, um, for some portions of the industry, it's a very go to feed when they're short because it's easy to handle. Uh, cows usually have relatively self-limiting on it. Um, and it does have good energy, good protein. Um, PK thoughts on that. And, and well, I was going to say another, there are some feed merchants won't even stock it now because I know there's been problems, I think with foreign bodies in it that have caused death of cows. But what, uh, that feed and any others that people should be wary of or look out for or go, um, you know, uh, I within the diets?
Annie Williams:Yeah for sure. Palm kernel generally pretty high in copper. Uh, generally twenty milligrams per kilogram dry matter or higher, which is a lot higher than most feeds that we would see. Legal limit in Europe being thirty four milligrams per kilogram dry matter. So you're already if you're putting palm kernel in a diet, you're already pretty high and creeping close to that legal limit. And when we're thinking about formulating for cows, we're thinking more around ten milligrams per kilogram dry matter. So yeah, definitely I would. It's not something that I would go absolutely can't formulate a diet with palm kernel in it because we see it happening. We do it, but I would be wary of it and be thinking about adjusting the mineral that's going into the diet based on that. Definitely see it causing problems in New Zealand, particularly, you know, where they've got drought conditions and they suddenly go, oh, we've got no grass. We're going to replace nearly all of what they would have been consuming that with palm kernel. We do see cows getting copper toxicity that way and it causing major problems. Tons of other ingredients. There are some ingredients where we just don't have the analysis. A lot of those would be byproducts, coproducts, whatever we want to call them in that category. Distillers, things like that. For those, if we're adding significant amounts to diets, I think worth testing to understand what their what their composition is and what might. If we're just adding a small amount, then we can have a bit of a guess. We can go, okay, this is we're only adding a few kilos of this. So what do we think its composition might be? Is it going to throw out the mineral in this diet significantly? It's weighing up, isn't it? The cost of having it analyzed versus what we might gain in that process.
Andrew Jones:Any mentioned byproducts coproducts however you want to throw in, they've got nothing against them. They're great products. But I suppose the thing is they can be a little bit more variable sometimes in terms of their presentability. Is that the right word to use in particular in terms of, say, dry matters? They can vary sometimes compared to some of the more we say, traditional dry products where, you know, they're going to be that eighty eight percent dry matter for argument's sake, they can vary. And I suppose that's the variation that you're talking about, isn't it?
Annie Williams:Yeah, yeah. So yeah, they'll vary in their nutritional composition in general, including in minerals, depending on what process they've been through, what have they come into contact with. All those things can can affect what actually ends up in the diet.
Andrew Jones:So we've sort of tried to sort of lay the base here. You mentioned there briefly, what are the legal limits for copper in you said Europe, but I guess the same in UK, but UK and Europe, What are those? What are they? Elsewhere, if you know. Um, but what should we be aiming for? For the overall balance of our diet as what is currently perceived to be the right level.
Annie Williams:Yeah. So legal absolute maximum permitted level would be thirty four and would be similar.
Andrew Jones:It's actually sorry.
Annie Williams:thirty four milligrams per kilogram dry matter.
Andrew Jones:Matter right. Yeah.
Annie Williams:Um and that would be similar around the world. Unlike some of the other minerals, we don't see huge discrepancy in those legal limits. For other minerals. We see more wide variation in what's allowed what's not allowed. Um, I guess when we're thinking about what an animal actually requires, that's where it gets a little bit more complicated because that's when we start to take into account what system are they in. What are, what point in that production cycle. Are they in so for a milking cow. I would be formulating somewhere along the lines of eleven milligrams per kilogram dry matter, unless there's something that tells me that I shouldn't do that. That could be that I know, for example, going back to what Sarah said earlier, I've done some liver biopsies and I know these animals are really high, and I'm trying to reduce the amount of copper that's in the liver. Or it could be that these are a grazing group of animals. I've done an analysis and I know there's, for example, significant amounts of iron within this diet, which means that I should go higher. Now that's the value that I'd be aiming for for a milking cow. And then we can apply that, that same logic into dry cows, just taking into account those differences in dry matter intake that I mentioned in terms of that Nasm work, where it becomes a little bit trickier is where we start to go into younger animals. That's where we probably lack quite a lot of data. And I guess that's where a lot of this work on excess copper is going at the moment. So from the work that you mentioned earlier, Andrew, in terms of fifty percent of dairy cows being over where we would like to see them in terms of liver, copper concentration, what we're really trying to understand now is why is that happening? Why are we seeing so many cows that are so high? Is it the way that milking cows and dry cows are being fed, or does this actually stem from the way that we're feeding youngstock and even preruminant calves? And then if it's from that, are those preruminant calves high because milking cows are high and therefore they're being born with a high liver copper concentration? or is it something in that? And it's those, although I think we're pretty confident. And in fact, I would say we're very confident at knowing where we should be formulating milking cows, dry cows at where we're less confident is understanding where we should be formulating for young stock and even less confident understanding where we should be formulating for a preruminant calf. And that is because we don't fully understand the mechanism in which absorption is happening in those animals. So when where we started right at the start, in terms of absorption of some of these copper supplements, we're saying that for most copper supplements on the market or copper just generally that's present naturally in the diet for an adult cattle, they're absorbing less than ten percent of it, let's say for a preruminant calf. We know that they're absorbing over sixty percent of it, probably maybe even closer to seventy or eighty percent of it because they don't have a functioning rumen. So we're putting that copper essentially directly into the abomasum. And I think it's there that we really need to understand more research in terms of how we should be formulating. So the general guidance that's out there at the moment would be formulating at five milligrams per kilogram, dry matter in milk replacer, twelve milligrams per kilogram, dry matter in starter feed. But if we look at whole milk that comes from a cow, we would rarely see it over one milligram per kilogram dry matter. So actually, what we're doing in terms of whatever we want to call these synthetic diets, man made diets is quite different to what actually occurs naturally. And in terms of this whole excess copper story. I think that's the bit we're really trying to unpick at the moment. Have we got a problem through this cycle? Because calves are being born with higher liver coppers, or through the way that we produce them through this milk replacer starter feed. And we could come on to the fact that we're feeding more and more milk replacer, which I won't say is a bad thing because people be on my case. But are we considering it in terms of its composition for minerals, and how much mineral we're actually putting into these young animals, their ability to absorb it, etc., etc.. So where I think we're going to see development in terms of formulation is really in these ruminant animals and really understanding how much copper we should be putting into those, which then hopefully gives us a better picture to formulate more accurately through the animal's lifetime. That was a really long answer to that question. Sorry.
Andrew Jones:No. That's fine. It's what we're here for. But if if you're saying that milk is naturally. What round did you say? One milligram.
Annie Williams:That's. Yeah. Max.
Andrew Jones:Let's say Max is there are two questions. Part one is there a variation depending on what the level is in the cab. If you're saying the liver regulates it, I'm guessing unless it's massively excessive or massively low, it probably isn't a major variation. But two, if it's one maximum, why are we feeding five?
Annie Williams:I think that's a great question, and I wish I knew the answer to that. I don't know the answer. I don't know where five came from.
Andrew Jones:So I'm guessing it's historical. For whatever reason.
Annie Williams:It maybe it was before we knew what whole milk was, I don't know.
Sarah Bolt:The other thing is that perhaps calves often don't go out until the second season, and therefore they're not on grass, so they're probably not getting some of those antagonistics of iron and molybdenum as well. Whereas naturally they'd be out grazing grass as well at that, you know, right from the start. So that could, I guess, have an impact as well.
Annie Williams:Yeah, absolutely. And I think it all what we are really starting to put this picture together now there's some interesting work obviously with the huge rise in dairy beef. There's some interesting work coming out of Steph Hansen's lab in the US. Obviously primarily looking over there at beef and feedlot systems. And then they're trying to put these dairy beef directly into these feedlot systems almost, you know, trying to do like for like and understanding actually, you know, why are these animals not performing very well in this system? And she's been doing quite a lot of work actually saying it's because they're coming in with quite a different mineral profile to what a traditional beef animal would enter that feedlot system at because they're coming from this dairy system where they've had this milk replacer, they've had starter, but they're not, although we think that we're putting them in exactly the same system, we're really not. And trying to understand the impact that we're having on those animals and what we can do about it. Perhaps formulating lower when they come into that system to give them the opportunity to mobilize some of that copper out of the liver. And that would be the same for some of the other minerals that we're seeing as well, trying to understand what impact we have by putting things into milk replacer into starter. And do we actually need to put in as much as we put in? What what impact are we having on that animal's performance, not just them, but as they go forward through their life?
Andrew Jones:I think you've probably really already answered this question, but if somebody is concerned that, well, as you say, it's difficult to know whether it's deficient or excessive, what should people do to ensure they have a full review or a correct review to ensure that they. They know what actually is happening on their herds and on their farms.
Annie Williams:Absolute like Gold Star would be what Sarah referred to earlier, and it would be collecting that liver data. Understanding. So taking a. And you don't have to do many cows to have actually a representation of what's happening across the whole group. That would be absolutely would tell us where we're at in terms of how much have copper have these cows got in the liver. I understand that that's not an option for everybody.
Andrew Jones:But what you're talking five percent, two percent in terms of numbers.
Annie Williams:So in terms of numbers, I would say six cows within a management group is representative. So if we're if we're managing all cows the same across the group, then we can do six animals and have a really good idea of what's going on across all of them. So that would be absolute gold standard. That would give us numbers, give us data with scientists. We love that. That gives us something to go off. If we can't do that. If that's not an option, then looking at Coco data can be an option. So speaking to the abattoir very nicely, when you've got cool cows going and trying to get liver data that way can work, the next best thing is to go through this process of of an audit, you know, really going through the system. What am I feeding? What's my water, what's my forage? What system have these animals come through? Did they, like Sarah said, did they get starter in their first year concentrate. And then they got turned out. Have they been housed their whole life? We can start to model some of those effects about where we think that they could be. So kind of two options, obviously ideal if we can do both, but that that liver data can really give us a really good example of what's going on across that whole group.
Andrew Jones:And again, I guess something I want to say in terms, like you mentioned, water there. Whenever I've done Minerals on Farm, that's the one thing I find repeatedly. And I've said it with transition, but it's the one thing people seem to forget is their water. And yet it's probably the biggest intake those cows are having. Um, and it can have quite an effect.
Annie Williams:Yeah. It can have a huge effect, especially when you consider, you know, when we're talking about this and we're talking about milk replacer, you're also mixing it with quite a lot of water in that process.
Andrew Jones:Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Now a little bit out of field maybe, but what about um foot baths and using copper and foot baths? Is that, can that have an effect in any way that maybe people haven't thought about? I'm not saying cows are going to go drink it, God forbid. But you know, I mean, it's the fact is it's still bringing more copper into the environment. Um, is that something people need to be aware of in any way?
Annie Williams:I don't think so. I don't think we've got any data to suggest that that would be having a big impact. Obviously, it probably depends on assuming that you've got your foot bath well away from any feed so that it's not getting splashed and contaminated, then. No, I don't think that we can suggest that it would drive any impact in terms of their copper status.
Sarah Bolt:I mean, I guess it could end up in the slurry pit, which then could end up out on the field, which could then end up in the forage, etc.. But I guess it's when you go through all of those processes, it's it's not a huge amount to be concerned about.
Andrew Jones:More indirect than direct effect.
Sarah Bolt:Maybe you've talked about some of the unknowns there that we perhaps need some more research. Is there any research currently going on in the UK or around the world that we should be aware of, that we need to keep our eyes and ears open for for the future.
Annie Williams:Yeah. So I think there's lots of research going on in this area at the moment, both in the US and in the UK. I mentioned that Steph Hansen's lab in the US are doing quite a lot of research in this area. Also Harper Adams over in the UK. So I try even though I work in consultancy role now, try and stay as involved in research as I can. There's a PhD student called Amy Marsh at Harper Adams, whose project is really trying to unpick some of these unknowns that we've got in absorption of copper in young stock, particularly in these preruminant calves. We've got some work that is UK only at the moment, probably with some ambition to make it global in the future. That is looking and it's pretty basic survey work. I mean, I won't say it's basic because Amy's got to go and pick it all statistically, but it's looking at starter milk replacer, how calves are produced on farm. And it's essentially survey data so interested in it is specific to dairy at the moment, but if people want to get involved in that, if they're willing to supply survey data and have their milk replacer and starter feed sampled for its copper content, which is all done in the lab at Harper Adams, do get in contact. We'd love to have as many farms as possible on that trial to make that hopefully a really strong result for the industry. The aim being that we come out and we say, instead of saying what I said before, which is milk replacer is five and starter feed is twelve, that we come out and say, no milk replacer should be this number and starter feed should be this number. That would be the aim of that research if we can get there.
Andrew Jones:Um, you mentioned there dairy and I guess it's something we haven't really talked about. I'm guessing it's probably not massively different maybe than some what you'd feed young stock anyway. Beef. Is there any big differences in in beef what you should be feeding them levels for them.
Annie Williams:I think there are some differences because of what I have referred to in terms of it being a lifetime approach in dairy. Obviously, being having like significant amounts of milk replacer, significant amounts of starter feed and the impact that has on their liver, copper as young animals. Whereas beef, if we're talking about a suckler beef system, thinking about them as being on whole milk and then perhaps going on to depending on production, more forage based, then yes, we would see some differences. So although we don't necessarily see differences in terms of how those animals absorb metabolize copper and therefore don't see massive differences probably in requirement, when we actually break it down and start to look at it on a systems basis, then we probably do. And certainly across the beef industry, I would still see a number of cases of copper deficiency where I could say these animals would perform better. If we got a bit more copper in these diets. That'd be very rare in dairy.
Andrew Jones:So looking at the time, I guess it's time we start wrapping this up. So any last words of wisdom from yourself, Annie?
Annie Williams:I would say evaluate copper in the system that you have on farm to understand where the weak points are, where they're going to accumulate copper, where they're going to use copper so that we can formulate more accurately and we can get better animal performance.
Andrew Jones:At any mineral, really, isn't it? But obviously today we're here talking about about copper. Um, Sarah.
Sarah Bolt:I think the thing that I've learned from today's chat is that actually, I always thought perhaps copper deficiency was probably more of the issue than excess. And perhaps that's something that's just historic that I'm getting a bit long in the tooth and remember, you know, sort of, uh, a lot of what we were talking about earlier. So it's a case of, I think it's really highlighted the fact of, you know, um, there is this excess out there and we always talk about lead and molybdenum and go, oh, it's all right. We've got really high levels of that in this region. So it's going to be locking it up. So it doesn't matter that we're feeding a bit more or the like. And I think it's just actually, as you say, it's back to have a look at your own system, have a look at your own cows. And actually really, it's back to sort of the Kingshay mantra of measure and to and monitor to make an informed management decision. I think it's, uh, that's what everything in farming is about. But I think particularly in this instance, it's, uh, it's very appropriate.
Andrew Jones:Oh, well, I like to say, first of all, thank you very much to Annie. It's been a fantastic conversation, um, and been very informative and. Well, you say that the biggest problem probably is, is there's not a lot of difference between something that's deficient and something that's excess in copper as to what you're looking for. So it's not the easiest thing to necessarily know which way you're going. Um, but it's been really good. We've actually talked about some, some basics, some historical stuff and just brought things a little bit more up to date. And as I say, that highlighted the fact that I think that was why you wanted to do this, wasn't it? It was highlighted the fact that there is an excess of copper being fed. Uh, and maybe just to make people a little bit more aware to, to ask the questions. And that's what it's all about to see if, as Sarah highlighted, are you feeding excess copper that you don't need to therefore make your mineral that little bit cheaper? So ultimately it can save yourself a little bit of money as well. Um, so on that I'd, I'd like to say again, thank you very much to Annie, but otherwise it's a goodbye from me.
Sarah Bolt:It's a goodbye from me.
Annie Williams:Thanks for having me.
Andrew Jones:Thank you very much.
Victoria Ham:Arm & Hammer Animal Nutrition are pleased to support ChewintheCud Podcast. We're all in when it comes to supporting healthy productive farm animals. Please visit ahanimalnutrition.com for more information.
Andrew Jones:Thank you for listening to the ChewintheCud Podcast, where we bring you conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England, and listened to around the world. And now for the really boring bit I'm afraid — the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during the podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of ChewintheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd, and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Ltd visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye.