ChewintheCud Podcast

Feeding Calves for Resilience

• ChewintheCud Ltd • Season 5 • Episode 3

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Calf nutrition has come a long way since we last covered this topic — and in this episode, we catch up with two of Trouw Nutrition's own experts to find out just how far. Georgina Thomas, Young Animal Feed Technical Sales Manager, and Dr Juliette Wilms, a ruminant researcher who did her PhD on fat inclusion in calf milk replacer, join us to talk through the shift from growth-focused feeding to what they call resilience-focused nutrition. We get into why eight litres a day is now considered moderate rather than generous, what a calf would actually drink if left on its dam, and why feeding more only works if you're feeding the right thing.

The heart of the conversation is fat — specifically the short and medium-chain fatty acids that occur naturally in whole milk but have historically been almost impossible to replicate in a calf milk replacer. Juliette explains the science behind restoring these, and why the payoff shows up most clearly in gut and respiratory health, not just growth rates. We also get into the real cost of scours and pneumonia in the calf shed, what Trouw's own research trial found when comparing four litres against eight, and why getting the fat-to-lactose balance right matters just as much as how much you're feeding.

We round things out with a plain-English explanation of osmolality, why whole milk and calf milk replacer each have their place depending on your situation, and where Trouw's research is heading next — including some early findings on dairy beef calves that could reshape how a growing share of the industry rears its animals. As always, it comes back to the basics: get your colostrum, hygiene, and stockmanship right first, then use nutrition to build calves that can cope with whatever a real working farm throws at them.

This episode was recorded in July 2026, and all information was correct at the time of recording. Please note this transcript was generated using AI transcription software — despite best efforts to ensure accuracy, there may be some errors in the final piece. 

What's your own take on feeding more milk versus feeding it right? Share your experience with us, and if you enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe and leave a review.

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Andrew Jones:

This is the ChewintheCud Podcast — conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England and listened to around the world. Hello, and welcome to ChewintheCud Podcast. My name is Andrew Jones and with me as always is Sarah Bolt. How you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt:

I'm very well, thank you. Andrew. How are you?

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, I'm not too bad now. Sarah and I said we weren't going to talk about the weather, but I am going to say is, let's be honest, still dry out there. That might have changed by the time this comes out, but I very much doubt that. So just keep looking after yourselves. Um, with all this weather and keep yourselves hydrated, etc.. Um, but otherwise onto today's podcast. Um, well, we thought it was due a follow up from the one we did with Laura Tennant back in June 2023, which until very recently has always been our most popular episode. Um, so yeah, so we caught up with a couple of Laura's colleagues.

Sarah Bolt:

So I guess some things have changed. Come on a bit since 2023, Andrew. Um, we're.

Andrew Jones:

Talking about you're talking about the milk powder. Sarah.

Sarah Bolt:

Both milk powders and, and perhaps your podcast.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I must admit before we recorded this one, I listened back to the, um, um, the one we did with Laura and the sound quality to me is just awful. I just, I cringed listening back to it. So if that's the only one anyone's ever listened to, please. I hope it's improved when you listen to this one. I know it's improved by the time you get to listen to this, but I mean, that was back. That was back in our first year. and things have obviously moved on since then.

Sarah Bolt:

Things have moved on and kit has been purchased and uh.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, and skills, skills learnt and all these sorts of things that help improve the production.

Sarah Bolt:

So all very professional these days. Andrew.

Andrew Jones:

Oh, I wouldn't quite go that far, but, uh, but yes, so, so today we're talking to a couple of Laura's, uh, colleagues. Um, there's been some, uh, advancements in milk powder technology in the last couple of years. Um, so while we do talk about some of the basics, we're more talking about what's been going on in the last three years. Um, so yeah, let's, let's go take a listen.

Kim Verschueren:

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Andrew Jones:

This episode is brought to you by ChewintheCud Ltd — completely independent, practical nutrition advice for the dairy and beef industries. Whether you need nutrition support, CowSignals advice and training, or RoMS accredited mobility scoring, we tailor the advice to your farm and your requirements. For the full range of services visit www.chewinthecud.com or email nutrition@chewinthecud.com. This episode is also brought to you by ChewintheCud Ltd — we now offer first aid training designed for agriculture and farming, delivered by a registered First Aid at Work trainer and experienced Minor Injuries Practitioner. For more details visit www.chewinthecud.com or email training@chewinthecud.com. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones,

Sarah Bolt:

and I'm Sarah Bolt.

Andrew Jones:

Sarah's time today is kindly brought to you by Kingshay — and together we bring you the ChewintheCud Podcast, kitchen table conversations for the dairy industry.

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Andrew Jones:

Hello and welcome back to ChewintheCud Podcast. Today we're going to look at Calf Milk Replacers. Again, a bit of an update from some of Laura's colleagues. Now, obviously, Laura spoke to us at the end of season one. So that's a long time ago now. Um, but today we are joined by Georgina Thomas who is Young animal feeds technical sales manager. Hello, Georgina. Hello. And also by Dr Juliette Wilms who is a researcher for Trouw Nutrition. Hello, Juliette. Hello. Um, thank you both for joining us today. I know since we spoke to Laura, there's been some exciting technical updates regarding development of milk powder. So we're here to talk about some of that today. But before we do like usual, let's find out a little bit about both our guests. So Georgina, if you'd like to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today.

Georgina Thomas:

Thanks, Andrew. Um, so yeah, my name's Georgina Thomas. Um, as you said, I'm the young animal seed technical sales manager for Europe and Central Asia within Trouw Nutrition. Um, I've worked for Trouw Nutrition, um, for around ten to fifteen years now in a number of different roles. Um, I was a graduate of the University of Nottingham from animal science. I entered the feed industry, um, and worked for a feed compounder for a few years before joining Trouw. Um. At trial, I worked in technical roles, so nutrition based roles. And it was there really that my passion for calf and heifer rearing started. Um, so at that point I was doing a bit of ruminant technical, um, on a number of different topics, but it was actually in twenty twenty that I started to focus purely on calf and heifer, um, as a sort of a niche topic. Um, I'm really lucky at Trouw Nutrition. We have, as you will see, hopefully as we go through this podcast, we have a huge amount of exciting research. We are very privileged to have our LifeStart platform. So for me, it's kind of translating that cutting edge edge research into practical, um, calf rearing tools, protocols and things that we can do on farm. Um, even the best car for us, there are marginal gains to be had, and I think we'll probably all agree that things changed over the last ten or fifteen years. There's a huge amount of noise out there, and we should really be focusing on published, evidence based research. And that's what Juliette and her team do brilliantly. And hopefully we can talk a little bit more about today.

Andrew Jones:

Fantastic. Thank you very much. And Juliette yourself.

Juliette Wilms:

So my name is Juliette Wilms. I'm French. I studied in in Agroparistech in Paris. And then I started to work for Trouw Nutrition R&D in the Netherlands right after my degree. In my first five years, I was focusing mostly on calf diarrhea and oral rehydration solutions. And then I shifted to work full time on marketplace composition. And I did my PhD with the University of Guelph under the supervision of Mike Steele on the fat composition in, and the fat inclusion in milk replacer for calves. And it's been about ten years that I have been working for Trouw Nutrition R&D. As a prominent researcher.

Andrew Jones:

I would say that's probably a lot of fun and quite interesting at times, isn't it? Um, sorry, I should just say. Juliette nodded her head. Because obviously people can't, can't see, can't see. But that's no worries. Um, yes. So today, um, we spoke to Laura a couple of years ago, and I listened back to it yesterday in a bit of preparation for this. And I mean, one of the comments from Laura is she said, I wish we'd talk about it as feed for immunity and feed for health. And I'm guessing that's really what we want to continue with some of today's message, isn't it is is where, as you say, there's a lot of things happened. You know, it used to be you fed two litres twice a day and that was it. Times have moved on. There's definitely been an argument because I remember having that discussion with Laura about or from others in the industry. Like there's been a push to feed more and others are saying you should feed less. I mean, if we take a snapshot of where we are today, where would you say we've come in the last, like you say, five, ten years, and then we can go forward as to, you know, what are the latest developments? And like you say, some of the research that Juliette has done.

Georgina Thomas:

Yeah. Our kickoff, Juliette, if you like. So I think you're completely right, Andrew. I think the calf nutrition space has massively changed in the last ten or fifteen years. And I think even since Laura spoke to you, I think there's been massive changes in the last three years. We obviously know calf from milk Replacers are ultimately completely connected to farmgate milk price. So also, which I'm sure we'll discuss at some point during the podcast. And the ups and downs of the market bring its challenges as well. But ultimately, when you look at where research has come and where research is going, it's trying to now look at the long term benefits and feeding our cars properly. Um, and trying to look at long term, uh, return on investment as well. So when we look about, when we look at what we're trying to talk about now, um, and this is where some of Juliette's research is super interesting is we're trying to move from growth focused feeding, um, to resilience focused nutrition. And so we're trying to take it beyond growth. Now growth is really important. It will always be important calf nutrition, but we can actually achieve a lot more. Um, and when you look back at um, levels of feeding, I think there was huge amounts of improvements to be done there. I mean, as, as Trouw Nutrition, we did some, um, sort of market research, uh, a few years ago. And just for the UK, we found out that sixty five percent of farmers were feeding six litres or less. And when you look at six litres of a traditional milk replacer, you're going to be struggling to cover maintenance and growth. You're not going to ever be achieving those growth targets that you want to.

Andrew Jones:

Well, as a as a comparison, what would a calf naturally drink if it was on its mother?

Juliette Wilms:

Um, so naturally a calf that is raised by the dam would drink above ten to twelve liters per day, which is equivalent to twenty percent of their birth body weight as ingested volume per day. And in the industry, it's very common to feed them less than half. Uh, so this is really problematic for their development, but also for their immunity. And the other big difference is that in nature, the, the calves will have a very, um, gradual weaning transition and they can stay with the dam up to ten months of age while in the industry by three months they are weaned. If they are lucky, in some countries they will be weaned extremely early. And we know that the weaning transition should not be initiated before six weeks.

Andrew Jones:

I mean, when you look at both of those figures, that's significant, isn't it, in terms of volumes and in terms of time. Um, and I guess we're repeating a little bit what we discussed with Laura as well. But some of that obviously comes down to economics. And you mentioned it there, Georgina economics do come into it because let's be honest with the recent milk price slump this last year, I've known plenty of people that sat down and done the sums. Cheaper to go back to Whole Milk. So have gone back to whole milk, um, in, in that time and not fed milk powder because the cost of it.

Sarah Bolt:

And that obviously has its own challenges, doesn't it? But I don't know if we want to cover those or.

Andrew Jones:

Which we can cover as we, as we progress through as to, to why they are, but they are definitely something that, you know, is a reality. Um, but sorry, Georgina going on in terms of you say those volumes there. So we've talked about where it is, where is, where is it going forward or Juliette, if you want to add to it at this point.

Georgina Thomas:

So I think we, um, we started with LifeStart. So LifeStart is starts. Our calf and heifer are in best practice platform. That is the platform that we use to, um, promote and publish a lot of our research. Um, and also to make sure that that research is then turned into solutions and protocols and stuff. So I think to give you an idea of where science has come from, Juliette and her team since twenty fifteen have had fifty five published papers as part of the LifeStart platform. So there's amazing calf research coming out all the time. And we need to make sure that we're translating that. So if we went back ten or fifteen years, Andrew, you're right, there were people feeding two liters of feed, three liters of feed. As I mentioned, even a few years ago, we were talking about sixty five percent of farmers feeding six liters or less. Um, that has improved. We do have a lot of farmers feeding eight liters. I would say our minimum feed curve now is eight liters. But we are massive advocates for ad lib feeding. So feed to appetite. If they're clearing buckets at eight liters, feed another liter, feed another half a liter. Um, and there is a balance there. I appreciate with not wanting to waste milk or um, have a high level of refusals, but then I think we start to feed more milk and that's what we talk a lot about. I think that's Julia and I talk about feeding more liters and, and the amazing research that's come out of that. And we can list some of the benefits later on. But when you go to feed more milk, you have to feed the right milk. You cannot feed a poor quality milk at a high volume, because you're not going to get the response that you expect. And that's where I think, Juliette, your research went next, wasn't it? We now know we need to restore sort of the biological marker for feed volume. And now we need to understand what we need to feed at that volume to be safe, to get the growth rates we need, and also also to elicit the House support. I think that's really clear to say we're nutritionists. There's a huge correlation between calf nutrition and calf health. We're definitely working and collaborating with vets and that's super important. But I think many vets would agree that if you get a calf's nutrition right, then calf health follows as well. Um, so yeah, then it was moving away from volume and moving on to, um, composition. And that's where Juliette started her work looking at fat inclusion. Um, and that was the next step for us.

Juliette Wilms:

Uh, yes indeed. And there is another point also that, uh, that is important to insist on. Uh, if we look, um, at international conferences or at recent literature, it's considered that eight liters per day is not an enhanced feeding plane. It's considered as moderate and anything below eight liters at one hundred and fifty grams per liter is considered as, uh, as calves being undernourished. Um, and as we go to ad libitum feeding, it becomes crucial to balance the composition of the milk replacer. Because if we feed ad libitum levels of milk placers that present large micronutrient imbalances that can pose a immediate challenges to the calf, like, for example, digestive upset, but also metabolic problems.

Andrew Jones:

Okay. And it's interesting what you talk about, like feeding for immunity and whatever. It just made me think, and it's never spoken about in calves in this way. And you're starting to very hear it, very limited in cows. But the fact that, you know, when you and when you have a sick cow, it's the amount of glucose it takes, the amount of energy it takes to for that cow to get over that sickness and therefore that affects production, etc., etc.. Well, I was thinking about this the other day because it's been ticking away in my brain for a little bit that why is nobody sort of made this in the same way or discussed it in the same way? Maybe I should say is it's no different for a calf, is it? If you want it to grow and if it if it's and if it's not got the energy something's going to give. And if it's going to be, it might be its health because it's not got the energy to provide the maximum resilience or immunity to whatever the challenge is, then that's when you're going to get that breakdown.

Sarah Bolt:

It's that the energy required to actually drive that immune system, isn't it? It's, um, we don't realize how immense that really is.

Juliette Wilms:

And also in terms of development, uh, of, of the cars, um, and in the Netherlands, we conducted our, um, a LifeStart experiment where cars were either fed four or eight liters in the pre-weaning phase at the same concentration of one hundred and fifty grams per liter. And we found that this had really long term consequences on the milk production in the subsequent lactations. So we found that, uh, cars that were fed eight liters per day, they were producing, uh, one point eight kilograms per day, more, uh, corrected milk for fat and protein during the second lactation. And they had, uh, fifty percent higher probability to reach the third lactation, which means that there was a big reduction of the culling rate. And this is explained by the phenomenon of metabolic programming, where stimuli in early life can have a long term effect on the metabolism.

Sarah Bolt:

And that's really important, isn't it? These days, when we're looking at carbon footprint as to the longevity of our our cows and our herds.

Andrew Jones:

And those figures are significant. It makes me come back to I remember when I first heard. George met Georgina and probably heard Georgina speak. Was talking about those queen bees and the epigenetics. And I mean, obviously, from our own point of view, we've. We've done a lovely podcast about the epigenetics since. And it just all ties in nicely. Um, but I guess while we're talking about this, we should just at least briefly talk about getting the basics right really as well, isn't it? I mean, yes, you know, all of that's got to go, right? But you don't have to have the shiniest shed. It's about making sure your management is right. So whether it's excellent colostrum management in terms of volumes and in terms of quality, the hygiene, ventilation, housing design comes into it. But as I say, if you doesn't have to be the shiniest shed, it's just got to be right and making sure you've got good stockmanship on there. I mean, have I missed any of the basics? That really ought to be people we should talk about? Or do you think that covers most of the things we need to know?

Georgina Thomas:

I think that's a really good point that you make, Andrew. And around, um, nutrition and this is something I know, um, we talk about quite a lot of nutrition, but actually offering adequate nutrition higher than a moderate level of nutrition is kind of your insurance policy because sheds aren't perfect, calf rearing isn't perfect. Pathogen loads are always going to be there. It would be great if we find at some point, some time, a complete, complete cure for some of these pathogens we find in in the calf shed. But in the meantime, we just need to make those calves as robust and resilient as we can. And you can never talk about calf nutrition without talking about colostrum. You can't talk about calf nutrition without talking about volume of milk. But sheds ventilation stockmanship. I mean, Juliette, a lot of her work at Trouw Nutrition has been based on electrolytes, and I think that that has had to change a lot of the narrative in the industry. And you mentioned sick calves. We can't stop feeding sick cars, but that's always been the tradition, hasn't it? So I think even we've learned a lot as we've come along. There's still a lot to learn. But I think getting the basics right, being consistent, having protocols, measuring as well has a huge part to play. But I really strongly believe nutrition can be that sort of insurance policy. If you feed a bit more, it can help support perhaps, um, more challenges in a shed or more challenges with ventilation. I'm not saying it's gonna cure everything, but I really do feel like it can be, it can offer a great support to calves as well.

Sarah Bolt:

So when you were, were saying earlier that if we're going to feed more, we need to feed the right milk powder, should we perhaps start that conversation about, well, what, what makes up the right milk powder?

Georgina Thomas:

Yeah. And I think one thing I'll just say, and then I'll definitely pass. This is Juliette's absolute area of expertise. But I think one thing to remember is that calves are born with limited energy reserves. Um, they have three percent body fat at birth. We feed colostrum. Colostrum is forty to forty five percent fat, highly digestible. And we are aware of the fatty acid profile of colostrum. Um, and then historically we've moved them to a calf milk replacer. And historically we've moved them to a low energy or lower fat calf milk replacer. So it's a massive energy drop. There's a huge energy gap. Um, and that's where Juliette's work started. I think looking at, as she mentioned earlier, if we're going to feed more, what does the biological, um, what does mother nature, what does that biological reference tell us that we should be feeding?

Andrew Jones:

And that's an important point to move on to, I guess, is I'm just again, thinking back to the conversation with Laura. It's understanding the profile of the fat, Isn't it? Not all fats are equal. Not all fats are the same. And I know that one. We had the discussion about why we use palm and coconut, because it's the one that closely matches the fatty acid profile. But I know, and I suppose this goes on to some of Juliette's work from if I've got this right, obviously one of the things that's missing is the C4 fats, isn't it? And I'm guessing that's where a lot of your work has come in historically. Why has that not been in a milk powder? And you've obviously got there now, but what benefits does that bring to a milk powder that again, it's all replicating nature. I suppose that's a whole different discussion. Well, why not then feed milk in that case. But um Juliette, tell us a little bit more about this and where it's gone to from and where to.

Juliette Wilms:

So I think that, um, in the industry, there is a strong idea that fat is bad for calves and that if we increase the fat in the marketplace, they will get diarrhea, which does not make sense when we look at the composition of bovine whole milk. But I think this comes from the fact that we used to, uh, have a lot in the industry formulas or formulas that were really optimized for cost and not for quality of the overall composition, low skim milk powder, but also the fat was not balanced properly. And it is true that if we increase the inclusion of a fat that is not well formulated, then cows will get diarrhea. And that's very well described in literature. And that's why when we increase the fat, it's crucial that that fat must be of, uh, must be extremely well formulated, uh, in terms of fatty acid profile, but also triglyceride structure and also all the technological aspects of the fat incorporation in the in the powder are also crucial. And technologically, this is very difficult to do. So it's not something that every company can do. So it's just easier to feed high lactose milk replacer because lactose is lactose, calves can digest lactose even at high level. So it's a much safer option if, uh, if we are not able to properly formulate the fat.

Andrew Jones:

So, so standard milk powder as it was, what was the sort of the spread of the fats? Was it like, I don't know, C12 to C20? And you've then sort of filled in some of the gap below. How does that compare to what the spread is on. Um natural milk. Normal milk then milk. Whole normal milk.

Juliette Wilms:

So um whole milk or the milk. Fat is actually the most complex of all natural fat. It contains four hundred different fatty acids. And it's not well known what each of them are doing. And it's very difficult to study them in isolation. So what we do is that we try to match the overall fatty acid profile. And it's the same thing that is done with the infant formula. They also work with blends of palm and coconut oil. Uh, and then roughly, if you want to balance the overall ratio for the medium chain and long chain and also the source of fatty acid, we need thirty five percent coconut oil, not less, and sixty five percent palm. And that allows us to have a balanced profile that will have an excellent digestibility. If the fat is properly incorporated in the in the powder. Um, we identified that some fatty acids were missing because they only exist in the milk of mammalian species. And for example, if we take um, cars and small ruminants, uh, we identified that there was a gap with the short chain. So the butyric acid and also the caproic acid, which is a medium chain fatty acids. And there is extensive literature showing that those two fatty acids are really important for the development of the gut, the intestines, the rumen for the immune system, for the insulin sensitivity. So this is really crucial. But technologically, it's very hard to restore those fatty acids in a marketplace because we can't extract them from milk fat. So we must work with compounds like sodium butyrate or with tributyrin that will cause olfactive problems to the powder. So in the industry, they are, it's common to find sodium butyrate, but at very low amounts. And we developed a patented technology that allows us to restore a natural level of C4 and C6 for the future in our marketplace, our products. And we found that it was hugely beneficial for for calves in terms of development, in terms of health, and also for the metabolism.

Andrew Jones:

Again, it comes back to health, doesn't it?

Juliette Wilms:

Yes. So the biggest effect we observed, uh, initially, we focused a lot on the Roman development because we observed that five weeks old cars that did not have access to solid food would have a more developed rumen, which is very interesting because again, it goes against what we think of the development of the gut of a calf, and that has to do with the type of butyrate that we were feeding. So we are very excited and we are really focusing on that. But actually the biggest and the most consistent effect we get is on health, gut health and respiratory health.

Sarah Bolt:

So I guess if the gut is healthy, it's able to absorb those nutrients better and, and everything else. So I guess you can see why that perhaps has such an impact.

Juliette Wilms:

Yes. And we know from literature that there is a strong link between, uh, diarrhea and respiratory disease. So cars that had a diarrhea episode are two point five times more likely to develop Gerd.

Andrew Jones:

I didn't know that.

Sarah Bolt:

The gut lung axis.

Juliette Wilms:

Yes.

Andrew Jones:

Every every day is a school day. So any car that has scours has a much stronger chance of getting, uh, respiratory diseases as well.

Juliette Wilms:

And in some references, it's even three times higher likelihood to, to develop a respiratory disease. And this is because the mucosa of the gut and the lung are connected to the mucosa is connected, but also the, the immune system of both. Um and that's why we see this, this strong effect or that's what we suspect. And we will, um, now we invest in that in our research program to properly, um, understand what are the biological pathways?

Andrew Jones:

I mean, that's quite significant, isn't it? So it really shows that again, like you're talking about, you can't feed high volumes of poor quality powder. What a difference it makes. I mean, you know, immediately you're thinking about gut development room and development, all of these things. And not even in my head was I thinking, what does that affect have on the rest of the the calf and in terms of the, the lungs and all of these kinds of things? And I know, you know, take it a step further. I know I've quoted it before, but I know I heard Alex back at a conference maybe two summers ago now is it, I think, I think and he basically went, well, if you get calf pneumonia, you might as well just get rid of it then and there. And and you know, the gasp in the room. But I know what he was saying in terms of the first losses, your your biggest and usually those that suffer like bad pneumonia don't they struggle don't they. Once they calve down, they struggle because they've not got that development.

Juliette Wilms:

And actually the lung scanning is used in some countries as a criteria to select a replacement heifers. So it's not just about how sick they are going to be, how much medication will be used for respiratory disease. But it's also the long term effect for the whole production system.

Andrew Jones:

Is that. Yeah, because lung, lung scanning is starting to take off here really, isn't it? It's not I don't think every vet practice offers it yet, but it's slowly starting to take off here more and more. And um, I know it was somewhere recently trying to think where it was and they were sort of saying, you know, that the lung scanning had picked up some damage they weren't even aware of. Um, but yeah, if people are then using that as a determining factor for which are your replacements and which of your not, it just shows it all ties in significantly, doesn't it?

Sarah Bolt:

I just want to pick up on this gut health and gut development bit, because obviously that's something that, um, when we historically thought of, um, feeding more milk replacers, we were worried about that gut and rumen development that because it's then eating less concentrate and therefore we're not getting that gut development. So this is obviously really quite defining in that, that that actually it helps us to be able to feed that, uh, that higher milk volume, but still get our room and development that we really need.

Georgina Thomas:

Yeah. And I do think that's a really important point because we've now talked quite a lot about fat composition. And I think just to touch on when we talk about diarrhoea and pneumonia, when you look at what are the biggest challenges in the calf shed, they are diarrhoea and pneumonia. When you look at instance levels across Europe, I think the incidence level of diarrhoea is around fifteen to twenty percent of calves. And we know that a case of diarrhoea um can be sixty to one hundred euros even if you. And that excludes mortality. So if you lose a calf the cost will be higher. Like Julia said, the, the risk of um developing bird is then two to three times higher. We know that the respiratory disease incidence is ten to fifteen percent of calves. I think that's that's a fairly low incidence as well. I think a lot of us may say, and we know that the cost of respiratory disease is eighty to one hundred and fifty euros per case of respiratory disease. But then actually the impact on the pen mates. So if they're in a group of ten, it's twenty to forty euros per pen mate. So all of a sudden with one a group of ten calves with one clinically sick calf, you can be looking at two hundred and sixty to five hundred euros. So when we talk about return on investment and we're talking about feeding more milk, and I think we need to go back and touch on feeding more energy in a sense, because I think that's really important because that shows massive benefits. But actually all of a sudden, if you have big health impacts, um, you can have some big cost savings too. So actually that extra two hundred to three hundred pounds per ton of milk replacer when you work it back. Maybe fifteen quid per calf. But actually, when you compare it to reducing your pneumonia incidence, promoting your, your, um, diarrhea instance, the return on investment is absolutely there. And that's before we start to look at, um, some of the benefits as well. Um, because if you start to look at, for example, the benefits of feeding, uh, more milk, Juliette mentioned, um, our trial, uh, we refer to it as our Kempenshof trial, but it was published, I think last year in the Journal of Dairy Science. And we fed a heifer calves either four liters or eight liters. But one of our researchers actually quoted it as one of the most impactful data sets for those also interested in sustainability of dairy production. So we've talked a little bit about disease costs. But when you start to look at greater milk performance in milk production in first lactation and subsequent lactation, um, we saw sort of a greater milk performance of the second lactating cows of being one point eight kilos of fat protein corrected milk, higher, an extra fifty grams of milk fat yield. Um, and we saw a difference in first service conception rate and the likelihood to be cold before the third, fourth or fifth calving was halved when the calves were fed eight litres compared to four. So if you wanted to express that in sort of an overall productivity way, you could calculate it back to being an improvement in performance by four point two kilos of animal per day for that. So once you calculate that up. So all of a sudden, I think I know I mentioned right at the beginning, we need to think about calculating the return on the investment. But feeding more milk gives you investment moving towards feeding more energy. And this is where Juliette looked at increasing the fat fat inclusion because increasing the fat inclusion reduces the lactose inclusion. That's the biggest benefit because I think, Jeanette, you found a lot of there's a huge impact when you feed a high lactose products and when you try and feed a high volume of a high lactose product, that's when you can really start to come into problems. And I think that's a challenge that I see, and I know my colleagues see is that people will challenge us that actually calves won't drink eight liters, they won't drink nine litres. They will if you feed them the right milk. If you're trying to feed them a high lactose milk plate at high volumes, they're not going to drink it. Um, because of the impact on lactose and osmotic pressure. And I'm sure Juliette can explain that way more way better than I can, but I think it's having that fat include increasing that fat inclusion is massively important. And then Juliette said that altering that fat composition is really taking it to the next level as well.

Andrew Jones:

I was going to say is, sorry, Juliette probably gives us a better answer is why we say it's not about growth. We should remember it is as much about growth at this stage, because your greatest return on investment is when they are calves. That's when most of their growth happens. That's when you're still effectively a monogastric. That's when they'll have the best feed conversion. You want to be growing them as much as you can while they are on milk, because if you don't, it will cost you a lot more to make that gain later on because they don't have the same feed conversion efficiency, they won't respond in the same way. So yes, while we're all talking about health, which is incredibly important, don't get me wrong, and I still go back to say Laura said this three years ago, it's we, you know, we can't forget that that is when they have their most significant developments. And if we don't get that right, it's just setting them all up. And I suppose wearing my CowSignals hat, we were talking about sustainability. You know, again, it's if we push for that. Twenty three twenty three was it CowSignals if they calve at twenty-three months and we can extend the lactations to five lactations, which again, all of this is what you're saying will help do it reduces your methane by thirty percent across across the farm. Well, surely that's a big tick for everybody and everything for calves, cows, whatever. Um, I'll stop ranting now. Sorry and let it go. Let us go back to Juliette to give us a better description of what?

Georgina Thomas:

Just before Juliette jumps in for fat levels and composition there. I'll just touch on that, Andrew, because that's super important. And just to add from our work, um, if you apply LifeStart principles on farm, so you feed a higher level of milk, um, it's been shown through a life cycle assessment through an LCA to have the potential to decrease climate change potential of a dairy cow, um, in kilos of CO2 equivalents by six percent. Um, so that's massive. So I'm, I'm a huge advocate of sustainability. It's something that we talk a lot about at Trouw Nutrition. But for me, calves and heifers are the foundation of a sustainable dairy production system. If you get your calf and heifer rearing right, you can have massive impacts. And I think six percent is, um, more than achievable. I think in practice on farm, when we can change a few different things, milk type growth rates, age at first calving, you can definitely achieve more than six percent. Um, and we know that is um, a KPI for a lot of milk buyers and a focus for a lot of milk buyers going forward. So yeah, I think sustainability is, is super important.

Andrew Jones:

Well, I remember being at one of your Trouw conferences and a couple of farmers who were speaking, saying, getting fed up of herding and sustainability. And as soon as somebody said, well, how about we talk about profitability? They went, there we go. So anybody listening, think of it as profitability. If you get your heifers right, you'll increase your profitability because you won't need the replacements, you'll get better production. And it all goes, it all starts. It all starts from that moment.

Sarah Bolt:

They're intrinsically linked, aren't they?

Andrew Jones:

They definitely are. Definitely are. So sorry, Juliette. We keep butting in and not giving you a chance, but we were going to talk about lactose compared to fats and various other bits and pieces. So please do tell us about them.

Juliette Wilms:

So actually before the lactose and the and the fat, there is another point that's very important. And that goes back to the growth. You mentioned how important it is to have good growth rate with the calves. So I find in the industry I hear that the milk, the composition of the milk from dairy breeds is no longer adapted to the physiological requirements of the calves because of the selection that took place. But actually the milk of dairy breed was mostly selected on the milk yield and not so much on the milk composition. And when we compare the milk from Holstein to a beef breed, we see that there are a lot of commonalities. There are high in fat, they have a low osmolality. The minerals are quite similar, so it's very balanced. And the proof that the. That whole milk is actually adequate for a Holstein calf is that there are data in literature published data showing that when Holstein calf is, is um, nursing, uh, by the dam in the first fourteen days, the ADG will be one point two kilos per day. And this is definitely not something that we commonly see on farms and in our research facility. We also had a trial where we fed two times four liters of whole milk, and the ADG in the first fourteen days was a kilo a day. So I think that there is also a problem with the reference that we have for a good growth in the industry, because we are happy with much less. Uh, and also in some papers, calves are fed very little. So one problem is how much they are being fed and the other one is what they are being fed.

Andrew Jones:

Okay. So in terms we've discussed volumes. So what are they being fed then? Juliette. What, what, what's the difference between high lactose and high fat.

Juliette Wilms:

So regarding the, the high lactose and the and the high fat, there can be uh, when when we have big macronutrient imbalances. It has been well described in infant nutrition that will lead to short term problems that what we see with the calves. And for the long term, we have the infant nutrition work, uh, to explain what type of problem we may have. So in the short term problem, when we have low fat, it means we have high lactose because the formula has to add up to one hundred percent and lactose is osmotically active. And because having low fat lowers the energy density, we tend to increase the concentration to still provide energy per liter of milk replacer. And that leads to osmolality that are above four hundred and fifty milliosmoles per kilogram, while whole milk and the milk of any mammalian species will be around three hundred three hundred and fifty milligrams per kilogram. And we know from the infant nutrition that we should not go above four hundred and fifty milliosmoles per kilogram. So if in a farm, we are concentrating milk that is high in lactose, that's a risky practice because a hypertonic liquid feed will slow down the abomasal emptying, and that can be a risk for bloating. And I know in some countries they are adept of the onceaday feeding at very high concentration, five hundred two hundred grams per litre. That's very risky. And also we can see diarrhea because it's a feed that's more osmotically active. So if it's coupled, for example, with bad housing conditions, I think osmolality alone is not necessarily, uh, something that will cause problem on a farm, but it's an extra risk factor. So if this adds up with other problems on the farm, that becomes a risky practice. So as Georgina always say, we should try to control the controllable. And this is one.

Andrew Jones:

So Juliette, you mentioned a little bit about lactose and some of the fats. What are you mentioned? If you feed too much lactose it has not benefits. It has an effect. What are some of these effects of feeding too much lactose long term. And maybe if you were feeding the fats long term instead, what what are the benefits that these may bring?

Juliette Wilms:

Uh, so when it comes to the long term effects, uh, so we know that, uh, differences in, uh, milk feeding plain, high, plain versus low plain will affect the long term performance of dairy cows. We don't have such data with the milk composition, but if we look at the work that was done in infant nutrition, that link has been very well established. So in the eighties, the infant formulas used to be, uh, way too high in the protein content. And that's because they wanted to match the requirement for essential amino acids of infants, but using dairy protein. So they had good intention. And that has led to a high protein level in infant formula. And they observed that babies that were fed those high protein infant formula, they were growing faster in infancy, which is typically something that we would view as very positive with scars. And we see it in some research papers that when we have a very high protein molecule and sometimes also high in lactose, that calves can be numerically heavier. So we see this as positive. but it was shown in infant nutrition that this was causing a negative effect on the whole body metabolism. So those infants that grew faster because of those high protein infant formula, they had a much higher risk of obesity at age eight in teenagehood in adulthood. And that was coupled with more risk of cardiovascular problems and metabolic syndrome. Um, and if we make the parallel with calves. So we can really wonder what are we doing when we are feeding marketplaces with very low fat, because it means that then we have too much lactose or too much protein in some cases in some countries. And, uh, what has been described in infant nutrition is that this will promote the adipogenic activity. So there will be a higher potential to become fat for life. And we know that this is a major issue with, with dairy cows in general for the management. So we really have to question ourselves when we are feeding, uh, such marketplaces when it's for replacement heifers.

Andrew Jones:

So from what you're saying, does it sound like you follow human infant nutrition quite a lot and then go, ah, that's a good idea. I better go test that on a few cows or a few calves.

Juliette Wilms:

So I think indeed, it's very healthy to look at other species because sometimes they may be more advanced or they may have more capabilities in some areas, for example, long term follow up. Um, so I look at both calf literature, human literature, sometimes also piglets, because for example, the osmolality aspects have been widely studied all across species. Um, so I think it's very healthy and it's important to also look at infant nutrition because also they have different objectives for them. It's, uh, health, uh, it's healthy development. And it's typically aspects that we would like to integrate in calf nutrition. And one other aspect that we observed, uh, with high lactose milk replacer is that, and that was mentioned by Georgina, is that those calves are hungry. Um, and it's not just related with the energy density, because if we correct by the concentration for a same energy density, we see that calves fed high lactose milk replacer. They are very active. They have a very strong anticipation of their milk. We see that in the morning. Um and we also observed that uh, before a meal, the leptin levels are very low as compared to calves fed high fat but also high protein. So the lactose specifically, uh, poses a problem with the regulation of society. Um, and that's a bit sad if we look at calves that are already fed low plain and then, uh, this make them feel hungrier. And we can also make the parallel with children who are drinking very sweet drinks or soda. They may have a rash, be very active. And then soon after that, uh, they're hungry. So it's not a good way to, to cover the, uh, the energy, uh, on a daily basis. And we see that it's also more stressful during weaning.

Andrew Jones:

But I suppose as you answer the question, it all ties in. I think you said earlier on, is it mammalian milk is quite the makeup of it. Across species is it's fairly standard. So actually, again, it probably ties in nicely. If it works for infants, it's probably going to work for calves, it's going to work for piglets. It's all kind of very related, just maybe being looked at from a different point of view and having had to com be feed both children, um, and looking at the cost of milk powder. And that's obviously several years ago now, geez, that costs an arm and a leg. So somebody's making some money already. It makes makes calf milk powder look cheap in comparison.

Georgina Thomas:

I think it's a really good point because it just brings us back to using Mother Nature as a biological reference and in calf feeding. For so many years, we went away from using Mother Nature as a biological reference. The calf milk replacer industry was built on using byproducts, which was great at the time. Um, but actually now we need to focus on the requirements of that calf. Um, and what we can do to, to grow a robust and resilient calf and using Mother Nature. Looking at that biological reference is massively important, I think, for future future research.

Sarah Bolt:

And I think it's probably not only nutrition where we look at human human aspects. I think, um, sort of putting my animal behaviour hat on when I did my MSc and animal behaviour, it was actually in the um, it was actually in the human um psychology department that actually it's, it's no different. We're all, we're all social mammals. And actually we, we had a lot to understand from um animal behaviour from, from human behaviour. So I think it's across um, across the board. Can I just take a step back before you go away from osmolality. Because I think that's probably a word that isn't um in common usage actually on farm. So can we explain what that really means? What's that? What's actually happening in the gut when osmolality is over that for fifty.

Juliette Wilms:

Sure. So, um, osmolality is the concentration of osmotically active particles in solution. Uh, and that will affect how water is absorbed in the body. And, uh, adult, uh, animals can make adaptative responses to that, but for neonates, it will be very aggressive to the gut. It can impair gut integrity. We have shown it in a trial. So for example, when we talk about the link between the gut and the lung. Uh, I'm sure I would hypothesize that, uh, if Christof had very hypertonic liquid feed, I'm sure we can also maybe see other problems that can happen in those animals. Um, so it's a very aggressive practice for the gut. Um, and in some cases it can cause diarrhea because the gut will always tries to dilute the osmolality of the gut contents to three hundred for better absorption. Uh, but in this process, uh, if curves are less than three weeks of age, they may not be able to do so, and that can cause a diarrhea osmotic diarrhea. And I think also osmotic diarrhea is a is an open gate for infectious diarrhea because we are lowering the local, uh, different, um, defenses.

Sarah Bolt:

So we also sort of perhaps even dehydrating calves in that situation as well.

Juliette Wilms:

So I don't think we are dehydrating them because they eventually, they will still still be able to absorb. And we have, uh, we mostly sell high lactose milk replacer and, uh, we don't see diarrhea, uh, as being a systemic problem with a high quality, high lactose milk replacer, but it's a risk practice. So in some cases, in some farms, uh, if we concentrate it too much, if we try to feed very high volume, it can become a problem. And that's why, uh, increasing the fat and lowering the lactose is safer.

Andrew Jones:

And, as you say, makes sense. It's what's got the best energy density fat.

Juliette Wilms:

Yes. It's much more energy dense.

Andrew Jones:

Yeah, it's no different with the dairy cow. If you're lacking a bit of energy when you're doing the nutrition, sticking some again, the right fat with the right profile. Um, but, but sticking a fat to increase that energy density when you can't feed any more starch or whatever it happens to be.

Georgina Thomas:

And there's a, sorry, there's a lot of, um, published data around, um, the benefits to feeding more fat, so not just increasing um, lactose, for example, but increasing fat has been shown to have multiple benefits. Um, there's a paper that looks at um calves fed a high level of fat having um a small intestine that was eight to ten percent heavier. And we know therefore it will have a greater capacity to digest, for example, and absorb nutrients. We know there's a difference in fecal scores. So if you feed a higher level of fat that the fecal scores, um, or there's a lower, I suppose, a lower risk of abnormal fecal scores within those first few weeks. There's also the welfare aspect to consider, which I do think is really important. And we at Trouw Nutrition talk about it a lot. But when you look at things like hunger related behaviors, unrewarded visits to the feeder, when you feed a high fat milk replacer, um, the that changes. There are less unrewarded visits. And when you look at treatment rates, therapeutic interventions, if you feed a high fat milk replacer, the therapeutic interventions are lower. So even just feeding more milk and then feeding more of a high fat milk, there is all these benefits listed in the literature. But still people are hesitant because they will challenge us with high levels of milk and high energy. Won't eat start it, they won't wean. And all of those things really are myths we need to bust. We know if we feed a high level of milk, the milk that's designed to be fed at high levels, calves will consume the volume. But also if you wean appropriately, you can, um, manage that, that weaning transition. Juliette said right at the beginning, how we wean reared calves versus calves on the dam is very different. So you have to have a planned weaning approach and weaning over at least three or four weeks, making sure that you are taking it down in steps and making sure they're eating at least two and a half, three kilos of starter before you take milk away is massively important, but you still see those challenges in the industry. You still see don't feed too much milk, don't feed high levels of fat. And I really think if you get everything right, um, then it's absolutely the winning combination. If calves aren't feeding enough, the milk replacer is not correct. If you're not able to get started feed into calves, you need to think about weaning protocol. I think there isn't a blueprint for rearing cards, is there? That absolutely isn't. But there are some fundamentals that are evidence based, that have shown short, medium and long term benefits. And feeding more milk and feeding more energy are two clear ones for me.

Andrew Jones:

And if I remember right, your fats are at twenty-five percent. Is that right now? Is that because that's the optimum, or is that because that's when the cost benefit is best? So if I turn to you and said, well, can I feed thirty percent? Is it a case of, yeah, that'd be really good. But actually the cost benefit isn't there or why is twenty five percent the figure that is in the in the powders?

Georgina Thomas:

Yeah. So our Energised Calf Milk range, which was the high fat range that we came out with in twenty eighteen, our twenty five percent fat and our latest generation of, um, energized calf milks that were brought out over the last two years that include lactose fat pro or the fatty acid technology that Juliette's been discussing. They are twenty six or twenty seven percent fat, depending upon which area of Europe you're listening in. Um, and to be completely honest, Andrew Juliette very much indicated, I think, in one of her earlier answers is that it's all to do with, um, technology. Um, I think our focus at Trouw Nutrition is to restore what Mother Nature intended to, or to even, um, do better than Mother Nature intended to. So we are absolutely trying to strive for high fat. We know whole milk on a dry matter basis would be thirty to thirty two percent fat, but it's all around the processing technologies. So how that fat is, um, processed. So how it's refined deodorized how it's homogenized, how it's spray dried, has a massive impact on the digestibility and the availability to that calf. So you can have two twenty five percent fat powders, but their digestibility in the end results will be quite different. And as Juliette said, the technology to spray dry a high fat skim product is much more advanced, much more difficult than a high lactose whey based product. So I think it's the processing technology to develop the fatty acid technology that we're now including in milk Replacers. So the shorter chain fatty acids, the benefits that we are seeing, we had to basically go back to the drawing board and look at how we did that. And that's why we've got that's why it's patting pending technology, because spray drying and meeting the minimum level to get the results that we want is really important. Um, so it's all around processing technology. So hopefully as our processing technology improves, um, we will continue to lift DCM came out at twenty five percent. It's now twenty six, twenty seven in the future. I'd love that to be higher, obviously mindful of the market. Um, and, and where we are sitting economically as well. Um, but yeah, I think it is fair to say that its processing technology and making sure the fat is in a milk replacer in a digestible way or digestible form is, is, um, less of a limiting factor than it used to be for our factories, but it still can be a huge limiting factor for some.

Juliette Wilms:

And when it comes to the fat level, in milk replacer, all my PhD studies that have been published, we are done at about thirty percent fat. So we can go higher to get closer to to whole milk in the future.

Andrew Jones:

Okay. Yeah. So that's, that's interesting. As you say, it's more the technology's holding us back than it is anything else at the moment. But as we fill in those gaps, like we have with the short chains, it will likely see those continue to rise.

Juliette Wilms:

So actually, we can already technologically, we can already be at around thirty percent. We see that the calves tolerate it really well.

Sarah Bolt:

Georgina and Juliette, earlier you spoke about how your milk powders are based on coconut and palm. What's the reasoning behind that? Because obviously when you look at other milk powder labels, could be soya, could be there's all sorts of, um, different ingredients that could be used. Can you talk us through why you use the coconut and palm?

Juliette Wilms:

Yeah. So our objective is to really mimic as much as we can with the fat sources available, the fatty acid profile of bovine whole milk. And we identified that a ratio of palm and coconut was allowing us to get close to that profile. And, um, it has been reported in literature that, that when we have large macro, large imbalances in the, in the fatty acid profile that can cause diarrhea to calves. And there is also a lot of data showing that, uh, when the oils are very unsaturated, for example, with sunflower oil, cottonseed, uh, soya oil, um, that will lead to a marked accumulation of cholesterol in the blood and in the organs of the calves. Um, so in terms of metabolism, this, this is a problem. And we see that with rapeseed, uh, we, although the calves are doing very well, we start to observe such response. So we think that they don't do well with a high level of unsaturation. Um and um and because of this accumulation of cholesterol, there is a big loss of feed efficiency. Uh, and the further we go in the amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids, the worse this problem is going to get. And when we have high inclusion of corn and these types of oil, then we also see diarrhea. So this is completely not adequate for cars. And today we consider that the best fat combination is palm and coconut or coconut and lard and coconut can also be substituted by insect oil. Um, but it's not possible to have marketplace without coconut or insect oil, because it means that the medium chain fatty acids are going to be lacking. Uh, so that's a problem. And personally, I also like lard because it's a very saturated fat source. And it allows us to get even closer to the triglyceride structure of Milkfat.

Sarah Bolt:

I've not come across lard before as a as a source. So can you perhaps talk us through perhaps. Why we don't see that here in the UK?

Juliette Wilms:

So I think it's for historical reasons regarding regulation. It was banned in Europe. Now it's not the case. So we start to see it in some countries again. So I think it's a it's an interesting fat source that may become more common in the future because we also have a concern sometimes with palm oil with, um, uh, sustainability. Um, so this is a nice alternative, which also leads to, to really good results.

Sarah Bolt:

So we've been sort of talking there about, um, what whole milk, um, fat volume, fat percentages, etc. versus our milk replacer. Is it worth just having that, that little discussion about, um, that the whole milk versus milk replacer particularly, we heard Andrew say that in the current economic climate, there has been a slight drive perhaps. I was going to say backwards to using whole milk. Can we perhaps hear your views on on that?

Georgina Thomas:

Yeah. I think currently economically, um, depending upon where you are, um farmgate milk prices are challenge. We know milk replacers are expensive, but particularly, um high skim, high fat quality milk replacers. Um, they are an expensive product to buy. I don't think we'll ever, will ever, um, argue against that, but it's the value that you can achieve from feeding a milk replacer, which hopefully we've touched on during some of these discussions already. Um, and the, um, the discussion around whole milk or calf milk replacer is something that happens in the industry when we're under periods of pressure and rightly so. So we know that whole milk is higher in higher has a higher natural fat value. So thirty percent, thirty two percent. And we know that it is completely digestible. And. However. And this is very much farm dependent, we also know that the consistency of whole milk can be a challenge. And with regards to dry matter, we also know the consistency of availability can be a challenge. Um, so I think we can't forget around the fact that calves loves consistency. But also I think, um, logistics feeding whole milk isn't easy. Um, storing it, cooling it, heating back up. Um, and also the disease risk, I think that is a massive challenge that we do have, um, with yoni and TB mycoplasma. Um, there are a lot of um, uh, pathogens, not necessarily directly into the milk, but they can also be fecal, um, transmitted through feces as well. Um, and I think that's a really interesting one. I suppose from my point of view, it has to be dependent on your farm and your situation depending upon your farm milk price, what your labor availability is. But I do think calf milk replacer offers a consistent composition, a controlled composition, and an opportunity for optimization with regards to feed curve. You're not, um, focused on availability and it should be disease free as well. So it minimizes that risk. So I completely understand the pressures that we are under. But I do think it needs to be looked at rather than price per liter. It needs to be looked at of some of the things that we've discussed today. Um pasteurization also has quite a big cost. High electricity, high water usage do need to be adding that cost onto your price per liter. Um, and also I encourage people to calculate, um, energy intakes of carbs, try and correlate that with an expected performance of calves and make your decisions based on more information, not just purely pence per liter or eurocent per liter. Um, I think one thing I wanted to share is our researcher, one of Juliette's colleagues, It's from a family farm, has a family farm in France. They've always used ad lib, whole milk. Um, and they have moved to, um, our latest calf milk replacer recently. And they've seen huge improvements in diarrhea and calf performance. So even moving from ad lib whole milk, we're now able to with the latest innovations and the latest calf milk replacers offer something that is as good as, if not better. Um, and I think that's a really nice story because often with ad lib whole milk, if it's clean and disease free, you think, well, actually, am I going to get any performance benefits from a calf milk replacer? But one of our colleagues actually did. So I think that's a really interesting thing to think about as well.

Juliette Wilms:

And one limitation also with whole milk feeding is that sometimes, uh, when a farm is feeding high quality whole milk, it's at low plane because, uh, whole milk, of course, um, is economically important for the farm, but even when calves are fed whole milk, they should be fed whole milk at high plane.

Andrew Jones:

So I'm sat here thinking that imitation is a sincere form of flattery. Since you say energizer's being milked, that powder has been copied across the industry, I would say how do. How is a business or how do you feel as that that. Or as a researcher? Juliette. I guess that must make you think, well, I'm doing something right because everybody's copying my lead.

Georgina Thomas:

I think, um, from a LifeStart perspective, when we set out with LifeStart, our ultimate aim was to have a platform that could facilitate the sharing of the latest research. So when we build a platform like that, Juliette and her team are widely, widely publishing their work. It the overall aim is hopefully that the industry can improve together. So I think that's one of our first things. Um, and I do think we did launch energise calf milk, um, into the market within Europe in twenty eighteen. Some markets within Europe were heavily skin based already. Some weren't like GB and Ireland were very much still based on weight based seeding. Um, I think the products spoke for themselves and the performance spoke for themselves. And yes, there's a lot of high fat, high skin products around there. Um, I think my um position is um, look for the LifeStart badge on bags. That's the evidence based, um, sort of criteria that we work for. And we'll continue to, to evolve. And you can see now since energized calf milk has come out and we're now talking about fatty acid technology, and Juliette's brilliant work is really moving us forward. And those results that we are seeing on farm are really exciting. Um, for me, as if calves are being fed better and they're being fed more energy. Um, yeah, absolutely. Trail nutrition are the originators of the science and the originators of high fat milk replacers, but will continue to evolve. We're not stopping now. I think Juliette's just getting started.

Sarah Bolt:

So that leads us really nicely into what, what are you currently researching and what would be your. If money was no object, what would you look? Where would you look to take your research?

Juliette Wilms:

Um, so currently we, we are still working a lot on the, on the fatty acids, especially to understand the biological pathway. And we would like to, to collaborate also with some universities. Um, and we also started a project on, on the, the protein because we would like to, to highlight the importance of high skim milk powder for the development of calves. And now we, we just got wonderful results. So we had a group of calves with skim milk versus only thirty five percent, while it should be around fifty. And by the end of the of the weaning, there were eleven kilos difference between the two groups. So having skim milk powder really makes a huge difference. And we want to understand how that affects the insulin. Um, and the whole body composition and development of the calves. Um, but again, coming back to the fact, I think we are just scratching the surface of everything we can harvest, especially with the short and the medium fatty acids, medium chain. Sorry.

Georgina Thomas:

And I think it's also important to mention we talk a lot about dairy heifers. I think the industry talks a lot about dairy heifers. Um, but one of Juliette's team members is doing a huge amount of work on, on dairy beef now. So looking at those systems, we know when you look at calves hitting the ground within Europe now that a huge proportion is of beef origin. And so we need to optimize the rearing of those calves. And that's something. Um, Juliette's got a PhD student working on it. And that's an area of exploration for us because yes, a calf is a calf, but their long term outcomes are different. And therefore we're trying to understand how we can optimize feeding, um, a dairy heifer, but also a dairy beef animal too. So I think there'll be more research and more things to come under that as well.

Andrew Jones:

As I say, do you think then that means ultimately you might have a range of dairy milk powders and beef milk powders, because there'll be slightly different outcomes and you're looking for slightly different, I don't know, growths or developments.

Georgina Thomas:

I think we are working on understanding what may be needed. Obviously there are two completely different systems and dairy. Beef is not integrated is it? Some systems are semi-integrated or highly integrated, but throughout Europe there are no super integrated systems. So understanding that is important to where the value comes and who owns that value is the challenge. Whereas with dairy heifers, the dairy heifers born on the farm, if there were a replacement animal, that person rearing their calves and putting the costs in gets the value back. So that's the challenge that we have. And but also I think, um, calves that are moving, um, have different challenges as well. So, um, moving at two or three weeks of age, for example, moving again at weaning. They potentially have a challenge to. But yeah, we're excited. There's a huge amount to come from Trouw Nutrition and the LifeStart platform. So I think, like Juliette says, we're only scratching the surface on what we're doing already.

Sarah Bolt:

It's changed so much since I'm going back probably, I don't know, twenty five to thirty years ago when I used to sell milk powder and it was, um, is it for beef or heifers? If it was for heifers, it was a, a thirty or forty percent skim. And if it was for beef I'll have the whey powder. And things have changed so much in, in as I say, those twenty five to thirty years, it's, it's, it's a totally different game.

Georgina Thomas:

Massively changed. I think what you find is sometimes you go on farm and the heifers may be on a high lactose powder at six liters, and the beef calves may be on waste milk. The beef calves look better than the heifers. Um, so that's the challenge that we have isn't it. But um yeah, I think that's something for us all to think about is just optimizing where we can. The calf nutrition for the for the different sectors to.

Andrew Jones:

I mean, like you're saying that about waste milk. My father used to rear all of our replacements when we were still in Somerset on the cow. So if you had a high cell count cow or whatever it was. I remember when I first went as a student to work somewhere else and they were weaning it. I don't know, was it eight to twelve weeks? I can't remember when it was. And I'm like, what? They're only half the size of the ones we've got at home because those ones at home were just running around either in a pen or outside in a paddock with whoever the cow that was being suckled. And, you know, they obviously did all right on it because they were they were huge, great things in comparison to most others at that stage. And it just shows what a difference it makes. Okay. Well, I'm, I'm starting to look at the time now thinking it's time we start to wrap this up. So like usual, Georgina, any last words of wisdom from yourself?

Georgina Thomas:

I think from my point of view now and from from LifeStart science. Um, if you look at what LifeStart science is trying to show us, we know that, um, we can feed calves better. We know that we can feed more volume. We know that we can feed more milk, we can feed more energy. Um, and that delivers us immediate benefit with regards to calf health. Um, but I think now we need to think about going beyond growth. So we need to look at feeding for resilience. Um, so we need to think about building stronger, healthier calves. Um, and that's achieved really through smarter nutrition. So feed more milk, feed more energy, look towards now feeding for resilience. And that's when we have to start fine tuning. So that's when we're now looking at fat composition. And I think the thing that I would say is in your own car fearing system, if you are struggling to feed enough milk, if you are struggling with a high fat milk, um, I would just always review what you're doing. Always think about is the milk that I'm feeding appropriate to be fed at eight plus liters? Um, and really, I suppose we want to translate the science into actionable steps for farmers. So I would just encourage everyone to think about evidence based products, evidence based solutions, and to really foster that teamwork on farm between your vet, between your nutritionist, um, just ask a lot of questions and challenge the team that you're working with. Um, and even the best units, um, can make small steps and achieve some improvements as well from yourself.

Andrew Jones:

Juliette. Any last words of wisdom?

Juliette Wilms:

Um, so what we learned through our research program is that any step we take closer to the biological reference, um, the, we, we can have a really, uh, big benefit, uh, on calf development and health. Um, so I would encourage to also question, um, the milk feeding plane, the winning strategies and the quality of whole milk or milk replacer that are being fed on farm.

Andrew Jones:

Sarah.

Sarah Bolt:

I think that farmers coming away from listening to this could, could benefit from, um, asking themselves why they are feeding what they're currently feeding. Um, take a look at what they're feeding, look at the label, ask their feed rep what's in their, what's in their milk powder. And above all, ask themselves, are they actually hitting the goals that they want to achieve? And if they're not finding somebody that can help them fit that solution?

Andrew Jones:

Well, I'd like to start by saying thank you to both Georgina and Juliette. It's been fantastic to have you on. Um, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you both. And I know we say this every time, but again, we could we could have just kept talking about this for a lot longer. I mean, it's something we see time and time again with our guests because it's their field. The passion they show just shines through. And that's very much the case with both of you. Um, and it's great because as you say, there's been a real revolution. Uh, yeah, I will call it a revolution, I think in calf, um, uh, rearing in those last ten, fifteen years from, you know, the way it kind of always been and, you know, a couple of liters and how we've moved it on and a better understanding of what's going on. And like you say, originally, probably calf milk started as a byproduct, didn't it? It was what how do we use this way and ways forward? And now we're starting to actually go, um, actually, if we can actually make this as close as possible to the real deal, then what are the benefits? It a cow produces milk for a reason and that's to allow its calf to develop. So, you know, um, this is what we're trying to do and starting to see by just those little bits, like the recent developments in short chains, the development, the positive benefits have been seen from there. So it's probably little steps now, but it's still all little steps in the right direction. And we talk about this and it's the nutrition and we've got to get the nutrition right because it makes them more resilient. It makes them for a healthier calf. It makes better immunity because if they have the energy, they've got more chance to fight whatever is challenging them. Definitely. Um, but also we can't forget the basics about colostrum quality, about just simple general management that if you don't get them right, no matter what you feed them, it ain't going to solve it. So, you know, it still goes back to the basics and do the basics, right? And then this will help grow and develop and do a better job. So, uh, from my point of view, again, thank you very much to both of you. It's been a pleasure. Um, but otherwise, I guess it's a goodbye from me.

Sarah Bolt:

It's a goodbye and thank you from me.

Juliette Wilms:

Thank you. Yeah.

Georgina Thomas:

Thank you for having us.

Andrew Jones:

Thank you very much.

Victoria Ham:

Arm & Hammer Animal Nutrition are pleased to support ChewintheCud Podcast. We're all in when it comes to supporting healthy productive farm animals. Please visit ahanimalnutrition.com for more information.

Andrew Jones:

Thank you for listening to the ChewintheCud Podcast, where we bring you conversations for the dairy industry, produced in the South West of England, and listened to around the world. And now for the really boring bit I'm afraid — the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of ChewintheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd, and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Ltd visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye.