Sermon on the Mount 3 E90

Adultery - Lust - Divorce

Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount continues to challenge Christians and the culture of the day after 2000 years!

Alan & Shawn close in on 100 episodes! Thank you for continuing to stay in the conversation with all of us at FITS.

Stay in the Fight!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:29

It's a conversation. That's what the good podcast is. Alright, I would say like a hard stop. A hard stop is 11. 1115 has to come now.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

So that's like a all right, shut up, audios. Bye. Hey Lord, we love you and thank you for this um opportunity to have a conversation. We ask your blessings over the reading of this word and and uh Father that we would bring honor and glory to um the very intent and the desire of Jesus to to take your law and expand it and share it with uh those who are who are often uh kind of lost, and that includes me and Alan lost for the right thing to do, but not for not for fear's sake, although we do revere and and respect you greatly, but Lord uh for a desire to love you and to honor you and to bring glory uh to to the amazing gifts that you've given us, uh not only in salvation and forgiveness, but Lord, in marriage, uh in the beauty of uh the two women we revere and love. Uh may we speak uh intelligently and and passionately and uh mainly, Lord, just may we speak accurately uh to the intent of your word in a way that connects with others and brings uh brings understanding to uh the deep talk that Jesus did it so well in so few words. And so uh we'll try not to muck it up with your help. We uh we love you and thank you. Amen. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I was wondering if that had any cushion to it. It has a little bit. It takes a little bit of the uh the echo out of it. That's what I was just about to say. It's a little less echoey in here with this. Maybe I should look into that for this table. Covering it with something. I mean, that's all this is. I mean, just like three of them. Final. Yeah. Where can I get some of these? Alright. Well, here we are. Fight the shade. Episode 2471. No.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

We never we never think until I looked that up before we start. Like the Star Trek, have have the star date. Star date. I think we should start doing that.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

We're in the Bible again today. Surprise, surprise. Chapter 5 of Matthew. We're picking up from where we left off last uh episode. Jesus, we talked a lot about anger and murder the last one, and so then today we're diving into an even stickier situation with adultery, divorce. Just a short set of verses, too, 27 through 32. Not a lot of real estate when it comes to words in the Bible, but a ton of depth and a huge issue. Yeah. I talk to young guys all the time. A lot of them are in relationships, most of them aren't married, some of them are engaged, a few of them are married, but they're all young in it.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Or any of them in situationships?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Situationships. Okay. You're five years younger than me, so tell me what that is. I I don't know. I just hear the, you know, I've heard that. Situationships.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Oh, my my daughters have used that when they talk about people who are sort of in messy relationships, you know. It's funny. Maybe it's not. It may and it may be even two years old now. It may be really old stuff, yeah.

unknown 4:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Since we since I've started using it, it's gotta be old.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, that's true. If you can actually use it in this sentence, then yeah, it's probably probably past date.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

This is uh should be episode 90, by the way. 90.

unknown 4:20

90.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Dude weren't we gonna give away like something special for our hundredth episode? Well, we're gonna do that. Some signed boxer shorts or something.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I don't know. That's uh we better we better be thinking uh because that's not too far away now.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

It's coming up. All right. If you got if you got any ideas, that's gonna happen this summer.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Let us know. Yeah, it's gonna happen. I think a signed signed photograph would be good. I'm sure everybody wants to hang that on the wall. Uh fight in the shade, photo, whatever. We're talking about stupid.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Hundred episodes coming up, man. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

That is exciting stuff to think about a hundred.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah. Um more exciting things like adultery.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Well, I was gonna say the words of Jesus, but well, however you want to put it. Oh man. The words of Jesus about adultery. How about that? There we go. So that you're reading a little bit. I'll I'll read it because it's it's it is very short, and this is from the NIV, so obviously it's you know, different translations, whatever. You have heard that it was said, and this is starting with verse twenty-seven of chapter five of Matthew, do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It's better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. I think there's a joke about um something about being left-handed. I think I think uh heaven's full of left-handed or something like that. I don't know. There's something in there. I'm left-handed. I am not left-handed. Oh gosh. It has been said anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. So strong strong language. Yeah. I don't even really know where to start when we were talking before the mics got hot. We sort of went backward. We talked about adultery and then talked about I mean, we talked about divorce and then adultery.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

I I had a mentor uh years ago um who who would um he kind of poke fun at Protestants. He's Roman Catholic. Uh and uh we were out sitting uh around a mall area, a big shopping area one time, and and uh just a couple guys hanging out with the several guys several guys. No, no, no, no, no. This is a summer internship and and and we're whatever you want to call it. Just continue the story. Yeah. And uh he he's he's uh noticing it's summertime. Right. The co-eds. Uh and uh not the humidity. No, no, not the humidity. And um one of the other guys, you know, kind of like, yeah, I'm not looking. And he says, Oh, that's right. You guys think that appreciating the beauty of God is a sin.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

No, no, no, no, no. I like what he said, though. I like what he said because I think some people will read this and they're like, Oh, I can't look at another woman without sinning. I was like, No, no, you can say, hey, that's a beautiful woman, okay? That's not lust. And and I'm just drawing this line here because I I think it's a good place for us to start. I don't think it's wrong to say, oh, she's attractive. I mean, because you can't help but to where your eyes go and where you see. I mean, especially, man, you work on a college campus, you know. Uh uh, I we can we could probably walk through to go to the the what do y'all call it, the hub over here, you know, Chick-fil-A or something. Where Chick-fil-A is, yeah, and it's springtime, and and I have no doubt there's an assortment of like attires and outfits, right? Yeah you're gonna walk by it, you're gonna see it. Okay. And so so what I want to tell people, I think to start with is like, okay, Jesus is not saying um uh you need to to only look at your feet. However, i if if you have a problem and you can't help but look at something that is attractive to you and think horrible thoughts and and go into a dark place, then maybe, right? So so I'm making a distinction, I guess, sure, kind of awkwardly. Uh that that um there is a there is I think a difference between us saying, Oh, that's beautiful, that's that's attractive, I see that, versus I'm gonna go into a place that's yeah, you know, much more involved than that. And Jesus is saying, hey man, look, if you're lusting, if you're if you're if you've got this desire that goes beyond something that's healthy, then you're actually um even if you never act on it, that that is in the eyes of God, adultery.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

It's not good. No, it's not good. It's not good. It's not good.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Well, and I think like one thing we always told guys was that idea of of let your eyes let let your eyes bounce, you know, like you see this and then look the other way, you know, that kind of thing. And I think but part of it like like part of well obviously this gets into the internal stuff with with what we see translated into our brain and how we think about it and all that kind of stuff. But I think where the biggest problem that I have is like is the I the just the locker room talk, essentially. Oh yeah. As far as okay, I see this girl and I'm with some guys, and then somebody says something. You know, well then you open a can, even if you're just saying, wow, that looks pretty good. Right. Then immediately It could start out innocently. Well, yeah. Or or what seems like pretty you know not harmful, but where does it go? Yeah, so I just think number one, when you're in those scenarios, I think you just keep your mouth shut, A, right? You there's no need to comment on that. Every everyone standing there knows what they saw, you know. Right. No one needs to say, wow, that's a nice dress. You know, you don't need to say that. Um because what we do then leads into what someone else thinks and what someone else thinks. Like anything I like we are our brother's keeper in that regard. And so we have to guard against this stuff. And I do think for young guys in particular, like this is like the thing that that's common to all guys, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Like I I mean everybody I I tell my daughters all the time, I was like, look, I I don't care how nice he is, there's a part of him that struggles. Yeah, absolutely. And that struggle could be really strong and really difficult, or it could be minor. Right. But but the hormones are real. Uh I I think it's part of God's design that that we, you know, part of the the whole evolution, or not evolution, the whole um propagation of the species and all this kind of you know, hormones are real, man. It it's scientific. Scientific fact. Scientics. Scientific scientific fact.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Oh, it's the scientific of it, man. Scientics, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Well, scientific, you know, like like it's it's not to be argued with. You know, it's done. We know that.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Well, it's funny, and you could talk about this with all sin, I think, but this one in particular.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

And I don't know what girls think. Okay, I'm just done. No, no, no. This is 27 years of marriage this week, and I still don't know what girls think.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

It's a male-dominated podcast, it will stay that way. Yep. So yeah, we're not even taking those steps.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Women don't even know what they think sometimes. And and I'm saying that as somebody who's heard from his wife, I don't know what I think about this yet. That's why I'm talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

So and I said I said before we started that I wasn't gonna make a Game of Thrones joke or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Uh I knew it was coming.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

But but so if you're a nerd and you've watched that stuff, you know that they have on the northernmost part of the land there, they have the wall. And the wall is supposed to keep theoretically evil at bay, right? Okay, the oddlings. Yeah, well, but also what's beyond the wall, too. The night, the yeah, the gathering darkness, yeah, uh, the night is dark and full of terrors, you know, all this kind of stuff. The wall is meant to guard the realms of men, to guard everybody. So there's a wall that's there. And I do think that in this situation in particular, when we're talking about adultery, sexual immorality, what we see, like you have to guard that as a guy stronger than probably you guard other parts of your life. Because I think I just think it's so intensified in our culture with everything that we're bombarded with. Plus, like you said, hormones are real, and we're just thinking about that kind of stuff. So I think it's and I I'm not I mean, I'm not cracking some revolutionary statement here. Every I think a lot of people know this, but you have to guard that in a in such uh an I don't know, intense or d um deliberate kind of way. Kind of like how we were we were talking about the the maverick and goose conversation last last week when we were in the truck, and when they go see their their superior officer at the beginning of the original Top Gun, and and he's all over Maverick for being a Maverick essentially, and he's like, Your name ain't the best in the Navy, you need to be doing it better and cleaner than the next guy. I just think that with this, we need to be doing it better and cleaner than anybody else, but then also in almost in any other part of our life.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Now are there other windows and places where we can go in a sin, in a sinful way that are still dangerous and can lead us down really wrong roads. And yeah. But I think this one is just so common.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Well, sexual immorality is is throughout the Bible. Yeah. Not a good thing. Yeah. It leads to the destruction of a a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Online gambling is new, right? You know? Uh there's a lot of of financial problems you can get into that are kind of new. Um, some of the envy stuff, even though that's a that's pretty old sin as well, some of the the way we just the amount of stuff we have and all this crap, like a lot of that's new. But this one, this one is old. It's pretty old. It's timeless, it's not going anywhere. Has it gotten worse with pornography and the phone and everything else? Absolutely. But it's it's it's massive and it's there, and I think you gotta have a wall and you gotta guard it, and you cannot mess around with this one.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

I haven't I haven't talked about the Vadi Bachmann quote to you, have I? That I heard. You you familiar with him? The the he's a pastor who passed away just a few years ago, African-American pastor. I don't know, I don't know. Wonderful. He's got a lot of clips out there on on the internet, and um he has one where and I I'm I'm gonna Google it and go watch the whole sermon, but uh I've just seen this clip and he's talking about sexual immorality, sexual sin, in particular with men. He said, in the Bible, you've got um you've got uh David, you've got Samson, you got David, and you got Solomon. All suffered from sexual sin. So you've got in the Bible the strongest man in the Bible, you've got God's greatest warrior in the Bible, and the smartest guy. And the smartest guy in the Bible all fell because of sexual sin. They all had problems in their life because of sexual sin. So what makes you think that you're automatically immune to it and that you don't have to guard your heart from it?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

That you're better than those guys.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah, those guys. The strongest man in the Bible, the greatest warrior in the Bible, and the and the wisest man in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I I was like, oh wow, I'll I'll never forget that. So I want to go back and watch that whole sermon. But but I mean, yeah, it's a real thing. And Jesus comes along and he says, Look, guys, you may not actually lay with another woman, but that doesn't mean that you're not committing sexual sin. Yeah, adultery. Yeah, that's where he gets into. And then he says, Go ahead, yeah, the 29 and 30.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

But I'm thinking that's Jesus saying, build a freaking wall around your soul, around your heart and mind, like guard it, like you would like your life depended on it, because in a way it does. And there's so many negative things that come with it. I mean to talk about pornography even just for a little bit, like the addictiveness of it and the destructive nature of that with trying to forge a real relationship after you've been diving into this phone and looking at these girls and these images and all this stuff. I mean, all that rewires you and screws you up.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

That's that's the exact words of rewiring. Um made what is the book? I I can't remember. I read it years ago. Uh it was about intimacy and and the um the independent intimacy is in the in the title. I still have it on my shelf somewhere, but it talks about the way that that the brain uh is actually changes the way that we experience pleasure when we when we routinely engage in pornography. Yeah. And and how it uh it and I've got a friend who gives a great testimony uh about how how he entered into his marriage with a porn addiction. And and when he finally came clean about it, it was it was a big problem between him and his wife, and and um and he shares that with other guys and he helps other guys go through that. And and it affected them not only emotionally but physically and and and of course relationally. And yeah, but they've but they've praise be to God, have worked through that and reconciled and r and God's restored their marriage in beautiful ways. They help a lot of people know.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, and and that's true too, like like that guy helping other people out with that. Yeah, I think like because you go, okay, gosh, I g I can't even think about it, you know. Like, holy crap, that's all I think about. Like, I'm sure some guys are like that, right? And okay, so so you got to learn to work against it, you got to learn to fight against it, and I think it's it's little victories, it's it's the daily victory, like we talked about earlier before we before the mics were hot, like I said, about taking up your cross daily, the idea of our relationship with God being a daily thing. But this is the daily battle, and so what am I gonna do to win that battle today? Yeah, what am I what what little wins can I find, right? Like if if if porn's been this massive thing, well, man, one day without it, that's a win. Right. And in that whole idea of stacking days on days that athletes talk about and all that, but find the little victories. And then the other thing that I would say about that, if you're overwhelmed when you hear Jesus say this, if you commit it in your heart, if it's in your mind, then it's the same thing or whatever, if you're overwhelmed with that, then also realize that that's when you need accountability, just like you're talking about your guy that that shares his testimony and walks with guys through that. That's the idea of guarding and having men on that wall or or the Spartan deal with shields next to each other.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah, no one no one's fighting these battles alone. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

That that the title of that book that was big, like 20, 25, gosh, long every man's battle or whatever. Yeah, that was I mean, this it's it's not new, it's not unique to you. It is something that everybody struggles with. So having accountability in your life, like having a group of dudes that you know you're gonna see every week and that you can say and have these conversations around about where you struggle and and why you are frustrated with this part of your life, all that kind of stuff, to be able to talk that through and know you're not alone is huge.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So I I think um I I think it's very interesting too in 29 and 30 that that he's like, you know, it's better for you to to separate, you know, remove your eye or your hand, or your phone, your social media. Or your phone, exactly. That's where yeah, perfect. Uh it's better for you to be without that than and he he uses language that we don't I I don't hear a lot of in and I don't use a lot of because I think people are so scared by it. Um says better to be, you know, throw that away, get rid of that, than for the whole body to be thrown into hell. So so Jesus isn't just saying, hey, this is not nice and God's not you know he's gonna put you in time out. No, no, this is this is something that leads to destruction.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

It leads to eternal separation from God. And so better better to be a one-handed man with Jesus than to have both of them and be without him, right? Amen. Uh and and I yeah, I think that cutting your hand off, gouging your eye out, those are big, those are big phrases that seem a little scary, but I th I think they're legitimate, and and Jesus was trying to make a hard point there, but then obviously cutting out your eyes, even if you cut out both of them, it's not gonna cure you of lustful thoughts. That's right. That's not gonna that's not what he's talking about there. Cutting off both hands.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

You just be a blind pervert.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah. Cutting off both hands might mean, you know, might cause some frustration for you and limit certain activities that come along with lust, for sure, but at the same time, it's not gonna change your heart. And so and that's what God is always talking about. And we saw the David play up in Branson uh the the Saturday before Easter, and they they they hammer that phrase about being after God's heart, like that that's what David and that that's what God wants for us. Always about the heart. It's about having a heart of flesh, not a heart of stone. It's about having a transformed heart that and not just seeking pleasure, but seeking what God wants. And so, yeah, whatever it is that's causing you to sin, then I think you need to take a long, hard look at that thing and go, how do I cut this out of my life?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah. So so uh just a couple of practical things, I think, and then we'll move on to this divorce piece. Um number one, you you need to you need to surrender this to God. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, and I know that sounds like, oh, yeah, I've already prayed.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Sure, preacher, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Right, I know, I get it, I get it. Um however, you need to pray again, right? And and and here's the other part of that. Don't just pray. Okay, that that's what we should always do first, right? Like if we're not going to be honest with God, then we're just lying to ourselves because God already knows the answer. Uh the I think the other thing that's really helpful is we need to find accountability. Yeah. You know, uh, and I have that with you, and I have that with uh a mutual friend of ours that we know, Chris. And uh uh I you know, I have places where I have accountability. And and if you don't have someone that you know well enough to to have accountability with, then then make that point. Search them out. Uh ask your pastor to introduce you to some guys that that you could, you know, of a serious uh similar spiritual maturity where you could sit down and pray together and talk together. Yeah. That's critical. If you don't have that, you need that.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

And I'll say this too, to put this in perspective as if some of this cutting off hands and gouging out eyes seems too too crazy. You think, I'm not gonna I don't need to do that, whatever. Like I'm I meet with some guys on Wednesday mornings. I'm older than all of them by at least 30 years. You could be their dad. Yeah, I could be all of them's dad. That's 100% accurate.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, they are all You could be their dad's big brother.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

They are all they're the same age as my son or younger for the most part. And and so so yeah, and they are talking about, and there's two or three of them that have just deleted social media. Yeah. And so what I'm telling you is they're in their mid-20s. Oh, the algorithm. Rhythm is vicious. Mid to early twenties, and they've deleted it. Oh, yeah. And so you might be saying, Well, I c I mean, why don't I I don't I I can't do that. I mean, I need my phone.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

These boys better to not have social media than to be thrown in hell. Yeah. I mean, let's just put it in terms of what Jesus said, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

They they are recognizing it right now how destructive it was for them for the last 10 years. Yeah. And they don't want it anymore. And so if these young guys, and I'm not they're the ones coming up with these. No, no, I get it. When it when the conversation comes up, I encourage them and and and but but but like the the spark that lit the flame there, that didn't come from me. Yeah. That came from seeking out God and from realizing and from reading the truth of the word, which we've been doing for like a year now together, and and what they've realized and they're starting to see more and more is that this phone, that social media, like that's something that I can cut out of my life and help me draw closer to God, help me to be more the man that I'm called to be. And so what I'm saying is to anybody out there listening, especially if you're in your 40s, if these guys in their 20s can do it, then you totally can because you didn't grow up on it.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

So toss it. If it's a problem, toss it. Delete it.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So so prayer, accountability, uh, get rid of the distraction or the temptation, right? Remove that. And and along those lines, along those lines, I go back to where David fell into trouble with Bathsheba. And scripture tells us in the season where you where where generals go to war, right? So so uh one of the things that when when I was part of an accountability group we talked about was schedule. When we got off schedule, temptation became greater. And so, so gentlemen, be in a routine, a routine, a healthy routine.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Well, be in and be where you should be.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

That's right, that's right. And that's part of the routine. Like do the healthy things, go to bed at a time you should go to bed, you know, wake up, exercise, eat, go to work. Yeah, you know, don't allow Satan time to enter into your life and and bring these things that that bring destruction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I love that verse about when kings go off to war. Yeah, yeah. Because it's like, okay, he has responsibility, yeah, and he wasn't taking responsibility. So that's essentially what that verse communicates to us. Yeah. You have a responsibility as a young man, as a father, as a husband, or whatever. So don't neglect your responsibility. Because, like you just said, schedule, whatever, getting off track. Everybody knows that. You if you're trying to diet or exercise, you get off schedule, you blow it for three weeks. Well, it sucks when you gotta come back, right? Yeah, you gotta pay the price, right? You gotta pay the price. And you fall into temptation, you eat more potato chips, you eat more ice cream instead of doing more push-ups or whatever, and it screws you up, man. So, yeah, you're exactly right. Like, like you have to pray, you need that accountability, you need to cut things out of your life, and you need to be where you're supposed to be. Yeah. You need to you need to live in a responsible way, and I don't mean just don't litter and don't drink and drive. Like, I mean real responsibility for the totality of your life and understand the effect that you have beyond just yourself.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Friend of mine lost his job a couple months ago, and uh in the time where he was searching, he got up every day, he got dressed like he was going to work, and he went to a mutual friend's office where he had space and he looked for jobs. Yeah. So he like he was clocking in, he got out of the house. Because sitting around the house, what are you gonna do? You're gonna get distracted, you're gonna have sweatpants, that's right. And he did that every day. I was I was like, I would have never thought to do that. And uh uh I just admired him for it. I thought it was perfect, he was really smart. Lock in. Lock in. Uh the last thing, practical advice I'd give you is read your scripture every day. Like, like there is, and I I don't have time to quote it now, uh, but there is a study that shows how uh sexual temptation reduces by people who read the Bible four times or more a week. And so read your scripture.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah, because if you're doing that, I feel like you're in some accountability with other people, like those guys that I meet with. Yeah, that's right. Like we're we're to the point where we're memorizing scripture that we quote when we get in the cold tank, right? Yeah, I mean, so there's like levels of accountability and diving into this stuff, and it's just like you said about schedule and distraction and all that bull crap, like staying in it because it is a fight, and that's why you have to build the wall and you have to defend it. You have to guard the realm of your heart. You know, you have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

So all right, we got a hard stop coming up, so we've got we've got about eight and a half minutes to talk about divorce.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Which makes total sense.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Absolutely. I mean, that's plenty of time.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Or or we could punt and then do it the next week. I don't know what you want to do. I'm I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Okay, we'll whatever we think. Yeah, so uh 31 and 32. Um there is uh there's an element here that uh contextually, uh culturally, I I think um I've always had it explained to me that Jesus is speaking to, and that's the idea that women, because of their their status, their status there in the in this century, did not have the same rights, right? Did not have the same social standing.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, because they couldn't go get a divorce.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

A man couldn't do that. Right. And so they were sometimes by some men, they were treated as a way to socially climb the ladder. If I marry this woman, I'm part of this family. If I divorce her because now I've raised risen in standing and I can marry another woman, and so Jesus is like, look, you can't use divorce and marriage and and and vis divorce as a means to change your social standing. You can't use divorce as a means to uh get a bigger dowry from from your new wife or or or be tied in business, you know, tied these two families together and now these two. That's not what this is for. That's not what this is about. This is something sacred, it's something spiritual, it's not just a legal thing that we do for a little while, it's a commitment.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah, and people aren't property.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah, people aren't property, they're not they're not commodities to be traded. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I feel like one of the nice things about this is is uh I I think that Jesus is elevating the role and the responsibility uh of of men to to treat women well in a time when they we didn't have to. Yeah. They didn't have to.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Sure, according to according to culture, right? They don't have to. And I would say this uh along with all that, so what it what it does is it it paints the picture for because cause I said that this is about the weight of marriage.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Uh yeah, you had a beautiful thing about about the way God loves us. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

So it's this is a lot about God's faithfulness and God's design. Like this is what he wants in his relationship with us. Like he never gives up on us, he's completely faithful to us. Read multiple times throughout scripture where God's people bail, but God doesn't bail. And and so what he's saying is I'm in it for the long haul. This is the model. So marriage has this incredible weight. Like if you can if you can do marriage, I hate to say do marriage, do marriage right, I mean that that sounds uh weird, but if is that gonna be your t-shirt? Do it right. Um do marriage right. I I think but if you can love somebody well, if you can be faithful to them in a in a real faithful way, right? Like I that's so stupid to describe faithful with faithful, but but if you can actually live that out, like what you do then is you're painting a picture for other people to see, particularly the person you're being faithful to, yeah. You're giving them a picture of God's faithfulness. Is it exactly as good as God's faithfulness? Well, no, because no one's that faithful.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

It's an illusion to something much greater.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Not an illusion, but an illusion. That's right. It is a window, a reference. It is a reference, it is a picture. This is something that that has a lot of weight.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

It's like when the movie theater tries to shame you for watching something on your phone versus on the big screen, you know. This is like the this is on your phone, and then with God is the big screen, okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah, exactly. Movie theater, what are you even talking about, man? Oh but but exactly. When I was a kid, I'm talking about this is this is something powerful that God has established in marriage that that really is one of our best looks at how God is faithful to us, because in marriage we choose to be faithful. If if we're gonna like that's a choice that we make.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Oh, I don't Yeah, all the time, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I don't I don't I don't automatically, just because I gave Shauna a a wedding ring, I don't automatically become faithful to it is definitely a decision because it's a decision, it's a choice.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And that's not just when you say that, that's not just in the realm of physical activity. No, no, no. That is in the way that you honor her with your words, your time, your presence, all of those things, you know, showing up for her. And and uh my my nephew and and and his new wife, um, they said it beautifully. Uh one of them said that uh their idea of marriage was every day choosing to love that person. Right. Every day you wake up choosing to love that person. I was like, wow, that's perfect. Okay, you got it. All right, that's it. Like if y'all do that, you're gonna be great. You're gonna be all right.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah, yeah. So and it's the totality of the vow, right? It's not just it's not just physical intimacy, it's it's every part of being faithful to them. Like that's the challenge that that God has put before us. That's what marriage is about because marriage is a look at at God, like it's it's like we said, it's an image. We're created in God's image, and we're supposed to love each other as man and wife.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

So little microcosm, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Of our our relationship with God, because God chooses us and he's faithful to us in totality. Yeah. And that's our model. So for men, and as we live in this world, we don't don't just think about it as far as, well, I I mean, I'm not I'm not cheating on her. You know? Like, okay, great. Well, you want to you want like a blue ribbon for that? Right, right, right. You can do better than just not cheating on her. What's the line in uh four Christmases? You know, I never I never did this. Uh oh Robert Paul, God rest his soul. What does he say about his wife?

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Yeah, yeah. It's like oh wow, that's like it wasn't a very high benchmark, you know. Yeah, yeah. I can't remember anything. Well, what do you think about that? I I I love that you mentioned the vow because during the wedding, I I often remind couples, I was like, hey, you're you're making vows to each other today in front of God and all of your loved ones. And I usually make the the subtle joke, your friends, your family, and your loved ones, because they're not always the same. Uh but you're making vows to one another. And and so as life goes on and it gets more difficult, remember the vows you make today and the way you feel about one each other, you know, the commitment you're making and why you're making that. Because this will be the moment you can come back to and say, Okay, wait a minute. I made a vow. And and it actually leads up well to next week's topic. Yeah, making the other vows. Right. And and we don't, I don't, I don't know that people consider the vows they make as sacred anymore.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Oh, that's a great point. That is that's that's good to lead into next week.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah, and so I I you know this is a sacred vow that we make, husband and wife, and and man to woman, woman to man. And so to approach that in a way that that treats it as as profane or or or as uh temporary and something that we can trade and and move in and out of uh frequently without any sense of uh of of I don't know you know sacredness, uh I think is is really uh it doesn't do any glory to God. And so there's lots we could say about divorce, and and we we agreed beforehand, so you're saying, oh, but what about this and what about that? We're not getting into the divorce thing. Uh the fact is um God sets an example for us in his faithfulness, and and Alan, you said that really well, in that when we're unfaithful, he remains faithful. And so um the only thing we'll say about divorce is is it does happen. And the ideal is that it doesn't. And and in the case that it does, uh we lean into God's grace. And I would say don't enter into it lightly, don't enter into divorce in this idea lightly.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, but well, because marriage, the weight of marriage, it's it's it's huge, and and understanding what you're doing and why you're doing it and and and how important it is, and like I said, the totality of it, like live into that. And and so if you're struggling, know that you're in an okay okay place. Because the the Bible, throughout the Bible, talking about God's faithfulness and Israel or his people and not being faithful some of the time, God's always faithful, and God named his people struggle. Go read it, like that's what Israel means. We who struggle with God, and so it's okay to be in a relationship where there's struggle. It's okay to struggle through stuff, but like you were talking about, like you have to have your bedrock, your foundation, your beginning point is hey, we are committed to loving each other through the struggle, whatever that looks like, however it works. Because the ripples of divorce, like the bad ripples, I know we talk a lot about good ripples on this podcast, but the but the bad ones, they are far reaching. And that's a little bit about what Jesus is talking about too. And yeah, and so I think I think we need to understand that. And so it's not there's so much that we could say about divorce, but I guess if you're in a situation where your marriage sucks right now, and you're that that's like a contemplative like part of your day, like does this even work anymore? Man, pray through it, do these things that we're talking about, and and and talk to somebody and and and understand like where you're at and same advice from before.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Find someone else who's a little further down the road.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Yeah, don't bail just because it's hard. That's right. And don't don't bail just because it's find accountability. Just because it seems unfixable or whatever. Like let God's grace have an opportunity to blossom and choose to serve God and choose to serve your spouse and then see where it goes from there. And and then and then if you have been divorced, don't read this scripture and go, well, I just screwed it up for everybody and everything, and then I'm never gonna get it right. That's right. Well, don't do that either because take where you are now. This is what I would say about any person in any sinful state in life at all. Like what God wants you to do is repent, and he wants you to, wherever you are now, to start walking back to him and every day take steps closer and closer to him, and let God heal your soul and and bring you into right relationship with him, and then a lot of this other stuff, it's not gonna fix itself overnight or nothing like that. It's not magic, but I think God can bring us to a good place of healing and and where we where we can begin to understand, and it's so that if you do get remarried, you you're you're better prepared to do it right that next time. Because yeah, man, I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

It's just Chris Chris uh Chris told me about a wedding he was doing with a couple and and um uh he was sharing a little wisdom that was shared with him uh and and that this couple had been married before, and now they're marrying one another. And he's and this older pastor said, Well, in some ways, uh for this couple, this is their first marriage as godly people in Christ. And I was like, Oh wow, that's that's a different way of looking at it for real. Yeah, so because before they were not following God. So anyways, I I th God's grace is a lot, and and we we're not gonna sit on here and pontificate about you know when it's okay and when it's not okay. Right. We're gonna tell you lean in, lean in to to reconciliation, forgiveness, because that's where God goes. And when that's exhausted, that's exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

And and he wants more for you than the world wants for you. Yes. And and sometimes he wants more for you than you even want for yourself because you don't know it yet because you're not at that relationship with him. So that's where you gotta be first and foremost. You can't really love a spouse well until you understand God's love for you well, until you're pursuing him. You're really not gonna be able to pursue a spouse the way you need to. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Amen. So uh it and if you shameless plug. I mean, Courtney and I are doing our podcast, Adventures in Marriage. If you'd like to hear about some people who mess it up all the time and still hang in there, we celebrate 27 years this week.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Oh, stop bragging.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Trying to catch up to Alan and Shauna if they're what, 31 and a half or so, you know. And uh, but Adventures in Marriage is another resource you have out there. So it's uh it's just good stuff, man. There's lots of it out there.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

It's good stuff. Not 90 episodes, though, but it's good.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

No, not ninety episodes. Not yet. Oh man. Audios, guys. Stay in the fight.