Rebranding Happiness with Declan Edwards

Declan Edwards is widely known as that happiness guy and as a thought leader in the space of positive psychology, employee experience, and personal development. As the founder of BU Happiness College, a social enterprise dedicated to helping individuals and organisations build the skills of happiness, Declan has built a strong personal brand by standing at the intersection of science, storytelling, and social impact.

With a Master’s degree in Applied Positive Psychology and a background in health, Declan has grown his influence as a trusted voice in the personal development space; speaking on stages including TEDx, consulting with leading organisations, and amassing a loyal online following of purpose-driven professionals. His work has shown that happiness is not a fluffy ideal, but a measurable and learnable skill that drives meaningful results in both life and leadership.

Through intentional personal branding, Declan has not only elevated his voice but also used it to amplify a movement that is changing the way we think about success, leadership, and happiness in the modern world.

In this wildly refreshing episode, we sit down with Declan Edwards — a.k.a. The Happiness Guy, founder of BU Happiness College, TEDx speaker, and passionate fruit hater. You need to listen to what fruit it is.

We unpack everything from emotional branding to joy, with a detour into vegetable trauma, and why "happiness" desperately needs a better PR team.

✨ Who should listen:

• Brand builders, creatives, and business owners looking for a new emotional lens
• People in culture and hr
• Anyone obsessed with how psychology meets marketing
• Tomato lovers (consider this a warning)

Links:

- Subscribe to Declan's Podcast "How to Be Happy" on SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/0zriwga04Rl0pbjFuDF6Hl?si=1361a39f296e4b60

- Subscribe to Declan's Podcast "How to Be Happy" on APPLE PODCASTS: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/how-to-be-happy/id1361238593

- Join the waitlist for Declan's upcoming book: https://s.pointerpro.com/bookwaitlist

Website: www.declanjedwards.com

BU Happiness College: buhappinesscollege.com

LinkedIn: @declanjedwards

Hit play to find out why building a happier brand might be the most strategic thing you do!

Transcript

Speaker 2: 00:01
And we went, hey, for everyone who subscribes to How to Be Happy, let's protect one square meter of rainforest. And we looked through B1G1 and went, how much would that cost us too? And we went, okay, would we be willing to pay that much to encourage someone to subscribe to our show? Because by subscribing to our show, they learn about the skills and signs of happiness, yada yada. And I went, yeah, we would be willing to pay that. And so that's just you know examples from us. But I've seen coffee shops do this where they go, hey, for every coffee we sell, we donate a day of clean drinking water. I think what brands could learn from positive psychology is do good things, like genuinely do good things, and share it and talk about it regularly. And people will want to come on that journey with you.

Speaker: 00:45
This is the Level Up Podcast. I'm your host, Martin Sully, a brand strategist, designer, and founder of Snapper Studio. And I'm on a mission to help you gain clarity and confidence in your brand. I'll arm you with bite-sized tips and introduce you to friends of the show who are taking their brand to the next level. Declan Edwards isn't your typical happiness guru. He's the founder of BU Happiness College, an award-winning social enterprise that's turning the science of happiness into a practical toolkit for individuals and organizations. With a Bachelor of Health from University of Newcastle and a Master's in Applied Positive Psychology from Central Queensland University, Declan combines academic prowess with a flair for the unconventional. When he's not leading workshops for the United Nations or delivering TEDx talks, you might find him recording comical music videos on a banjo or vehemently avoiding tomatoes. Apparently, they are the snot of the vegetable world.

Speaker 2: 01:59
That is a hill I will die on. You're right. You've done your research well on me. I'm impressed.

Speaker: 02:03
I'll tell you the secret afterwards of how I came to this. Yeah, Declan's approach is as refreshing as it is effective. Is it right that you've in with your uh sort of reports that you're getting a 50%, 57% increase in happiness?

Speaker 2: 02:23
Yeah, so people who come to BU Happiness College to learn the skills and science of happiness, we measure uh those skill sets and we measure their happiness levels and they go up on average 57% in a year.

Speaker: 02:32
Yeah, right. Impressive. Um we also happen to have the same birthday, don't we? We do, yes. Uh so every year we both sort of exchange a happy birthday. A very courteous happy birthday to you two, sir. Um yeah, so my aim for this episode is to really ask you questions and some new questions and give you the space to kind of unpack some of your knowledge

Speaker: 03:00
 as well. Cool. Um so yeah, first I'm gonna I want to get into this the vegetables and the tomatoes. Was there a traumatic story that's kind of provoked your hatred of tomatoes?

Speaker 2: 03:13
I don't think there's any childhood trauma behind it. I think it's more just an objective fact that tomatoes are disgusting. And I'll find anyone who says otherwise. Um, I I mean I eat sun-dried tomatoes, I eat tomato paste, tomato sauce. It is literally just raw tomatoes, yeah, the inside of them can't stand the texture. This is the only food aversion that I have. Yeah, how about salsa? Salsa, yeah, fine. All good. Yeah, chop it all up, that's all fine. But yeah, no, I say it's it's I think you alluded to I believe that raw tomatoes, they're the snot of the food world, only closely followed by oysters. Also not a food for the same same reason.

Speaker: 03:52
Maybe it's a textural thing, then. I think so.

Speaker 2: 03:56
I'm waiting for all the rage like responses that you're gonna get to this. The tomato fans who are gonna be writing in furiously.

Speaker: 04:03
They're gonna be they're gonna be cross, aren't they? They're gonna if they you know, if they listen, they're gonna that's that this will be literally the last episode they listen to.

Speaker 2: 04:10
I'll just say please stay with us. I promise I have some uh insights on the sides of happiness to share. I hope that my hatred of tomatoes is not just uh turned people off entirely.

Speaker: 04:21
Um so uh you'll have to tell me the the year you did it, but you climbed Mount Kinamanjaro, is that correct? I did, yeah.

Speaker 2: 04:30
Yeah, that was um I believe 2018. It was a while ago now. Yeah. And set out to go, okay, let's do our first uh what we called uh uh expedition happiness. So an overseas trip with a bunch of our members, clients, family members, friends to go do something difficult that would push us our cover zone and challenges. And I got the idea because two years before that, I'd been invited by one of my coaches and mentors to uh hike to Everest Space Camp.

Speaker: 04:57
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 04:58
And it was a fantastic experience, very challenging. But I learned a lot about myself through that and went, okay, well, that's an experience I want to offer other people. I've already done Everest Space Camp now, where do we go next? And highest mountain in Africa was on the charts. Yeah. And so off we went, and it was to this day in my life, probably one of the most. I mean, we were just joking before about my hatred of tomatoes is probably not from childhood trauma, but if you want to talk traumatic events, Kilimanjaro was something else for me. Like to this day, it was one of the most challenging, traumatizing, difficult, heartbreaking experiences that that I've had.

unknown: 05:36
Oh wow.

Speaker: 05:37
What happened?

Speaker 2: 05:39
I mean, altitude sickness is the short answer. Yeah. So I managed to do Ever Space Camp without really many, any side effects. And then I kind of went in in hindsight, I can say I went into Kilimanjaro now a bit cocky and arrogant because of it. Because I was like, oh, I've done Ever Space Camp, this is still fine, yada yada. They're completely different beasts, like Everestpace Camp, you're going through the Himalayas, so you go up and then you sleep lower, so you're acclimatised better. Yep. Kilimanjaro is a freestanding mountain, so every night you're sleeping higher.

Speaker: 06:07
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 06:08
And again, when we're choosing the route, I was like, oh, let's do uh I think it's called the wrong guy route. And it was like the one that not many people do because it's harder.

Speaker: 06:18
Okay.

Speaker 2: 06:18
And I went, well, let's do that because that's a cooler challenge. Let's get people really out of coming so and come summit night. So the the day before we're going for summit, we're crossing something called the saddle. It's like this big exposed area we'd been hiking for hours at high altitude. We're all exhausted. Yep. And they said, Look, the saddle's gonna feel really tough because it's all wind exposed. You're gonna be getting buffeted by wind, you're cold, you're tired, you just want to sleep, you're gonna hate the day. Yeah. But once we get to base camp, we're gonna eat lunch, we're gonna sleep. Yeah. You'll sleep eight hours, and then at midnight, we're all gonna wake up and we're gonna push for the summit for sunrise. That was the plan. So we we do the saddle, we do the saddle, we get to base camp, we sit down, we have lunch, and then as we're all getting ready to go to our tents to go to sleep, which we've been craving because we'd already hiked about eight hours that day, we were wrecked. Our head guide pulls me aside and goes, Hey, the weather's not looking great for tonight, and also morale-wise, it's harder to go for summit at night because it's colder, it's darker, energy slow. Yeah, if we're gonna go for summit, we should do it now.

Speaker: 07:23
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 07:24
And I went, You're you're kidding me, we're all exhausted, we're stuffed. Yeah. He goes, No, the best call is to go now. So we went back to the group, put it to democratic vote. Yeah. Said, hey, the recommendation we have is for most of us to have the likelihood of getting up there, we should go now. And that pushed to summit. We didn't, none of us made full summit. There's we made Gilman's Point, which is 5,400 meters, I think, 5,300 meters above sea level. And then you can go around the crater rim to get to the official summit. Yeah. It's like another hour and a half. But I was throwing up, I was crawling on on fours, I was just crying repeatedly. I remember having a panic attack because I couldn't get my arm into the sleeve of my jacket. And one of our members actually, who was at the college at the time, had to like grab me and hold me and be like, hey, I'm here with you. Like, let me guide your arm in. And then I remember at one point just like lying on the ground and being like, Okay, I need to go to sleep. And the guide's going, You can't sleep here. Like, if you sleep here, you'll die. And then I just remember at the time being like, I kind of don't care anymore. Like, it's weird what attitude sickness does to you. Like, attitude sickness was just like, I was so ambivalent to my own life. And out of weird timings, you know, we we got to Gilman's point. I said, Do we push to full summit? And the guide said, If you push to full summit, I'm not sure you're coming back. Like, you need to get off this mountain. You don't realize how bad your attitude sickness is. And so he pushed me down, get back to base camp. I pull into the tent to go to sleep right as the clock ticks over to my birthday. And I'm lying there alone because my wife is still somewhere up the mountain being brought down because I tried to come back with her. And I said, No, no, no, you need to go down first because you're really sick. Lying there alone on my birthday, going, What the hell have I done? Why am I here? And also going, Wow, like a few hours ago, I genuinely didn't care if I died.

Speaker: 09:10
Yeah, wow. Yeah, and I think what do I do with that? Yeah. And I think um, I mean, my only experiences with altitude and climbing mountains has been going up to Mount Snowden in the UK, which was you know, like a thousand uh a thousand fourteen meters. It's not not masses, uh, but it's two or three hours of climbing, and then that's it, you go back down, and it's all fine. Like you don't have an appreciation of altitude sickness.

Speaker 2: 09:42
Yeah, I never thought it would hit me as hard as it did. Yeah. And then, you know, something's off. I'd do that, I think, a few days later on the plane flying home, which is meaning because the plane takes off and you look out the window and you can see the summit of Kilimanjaro through the clouds, and you're like, oh that's where I almost died a few days ago. And I got home, and again, I think this was a part of the chapter that made it so challenging and traumatizing. By then I'd been building Be You Happiness College for about two years.

Speaker: 10:06
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:07
And I got back to find out that we were in a much more jeopardized financial position than I thought we were. There was a falling apart of me and my original co-founder and business partner. And I remember getting back already trying to process the challenge of Killy and what happened on Kilmanjaro, and then finding out we had about a six-week runway before we're going to run out of money and need to close the business.

Speaker: 10:26
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 10:27
And I went, ah, okay, let's somehow pull this together. Yeah, I mean, you want to talk difficult chapters. That one is a defining moment, I think, in my life and in my career to go, okay, this kind of tore me apart in a lot of ways, humbled me in a lot of ways.

Speaker: 10:45
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:46
How do we rebuild from this?

Speaker: 10:47
Yeah. 

Speaker: 10:48
I I think you you almost have to go towards those points of failure sometimes into in order to actually learn anything. I mean, it's something I've said to my daughter, who's five. Um but those things if you don't if you don't learn from them and keep trying and keep practicing, like you don't improve. I mean, she's been swimming since she was uh well, she's been doing swimming lessons since she was one. Since you know, she's been doing them week pretty much weekly. Um but she's just got to the point where everything's just clicking together and she's like happy to just jump in the pool, do a lap, and you know, get out, you know, is everything is safe, but that's been an incredible learning experience from us as parents. To see that all happening, and then you go, oh, it literally applies for everything learning to read, learning to ride a bike, learning every anything that is mildly tough, um, just keep doing it.

Speaker 2: 11:50
Yeah, I mean it's a cliche for a reason, right? But like we grow outside of our comfort zones. There's truth behind the saying, it's why it's become a cliche. I've also I think in hindsight, like I think doing hard things is important, but doing it with preparation and safeguards and with good meaning behind it, yeah, is probably my big lesson from that. I was like, okay, this was difficult just for the ego boost of being difficult rather than you know doing it in a way that was really considered and intentional and prepared. So now I still do difficult things. I aim to do difficult things in life. I think it's a big part of growth and of happiness is to challenge ourselves. But I now try to do it with a lot more of a sense of intentionality rather than recklessness.

Speaker: 12:31
Yeah, okay. I was gonna say that's uh I've got uh oh obviously I've got more questions, but I don't I don't want to shoehorn this one in

Speaker: 12:42
 there. But to take it back another step. One of the most important things as a designer when you first start um is the need to learn to uh like the ability to accept feedback and especially when it's uh negative feedback or it's const you know constructive feedback. And it's not a personal attack on your skills, um, but more of a way to improve your work. And then I noticed this in your in in there, you've got a framework for feedback, is that right?

Speaker 2: 13:23
Uh it's not particularly my framework, but I know there's one that we tend to recommend a lot. The active constructing responding. Yeah, active constructive responding. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it's a great framework from positive psychology. It's more so about how we celebrate and expand and savour in good moments with people in our life. So, not so much for like those critical conversations or difficult feedback. That's more where I'd probably recommend things like radical candor. Um I believe it's a book by Kim Scott, so a really good framework about being really clear uh in our in our feedback on that, and clear is kind is another saying we use a lot at BU for which we pinch from Brene Brown. But active constructive responding, I love for the moments in life when someone comes to you and wants to share something positive, yeah. Be it like a client or a colleague or a friend or a loved one, yeah. They come back and they're like, oh, you know, this something good happened at work today or something good happened with this project, I will tell you. And we can either respond, if you imagine a framework of like four quadrants, yeah, right. And so on the horizontal axis, let's say the left side is destructive, the right side is constructive. If we go up and down, the very top is active, the very bottom is is passive. A lot of the time, just because life is busy, and I catch myself doing this all the time, we sit in the passive zones. So I have a passive destructive, which is to kind of shut off the conversation or draw attention away. So they're like, oh, you know, this happened at Works Day. Oh, cool, like well, this is what happened with my day.

Speaker: 14:51
Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:53
I've robbed the conversation, I've stolen someone's good moment, right? And actually it it detracts from how people feel, it detracts from connection. Or we do passive um constructive, which feel I think it's more common because it feels like it's not doing any harm or damage, which go, oh, that's really good. I'm happy for you. It's all statements. It doesn't expand it. You know what I mean? It doesn't it doesn't further the conversation or expand someone's celebration. It's not like a tell me tell me what happened. 100%, right? It's lazy communication responding. And again, I've got to catch myself doing that. So that's the passive side, right? We either steal from it and draw attention to us or to something else, right? So you might be like, oh, this is what's going on, yeah, yeah, like it's a really good project. I'm like, oh, really cool. Like, hey, quickly, I noticed that we don't have many groceries at the moment, but like, what are we planning on doing for dinner? Complete derail, right? Like that's passively destructive to the celebration. Passive, um, constructive is like nothing really happens. Yeah. It's just short statements, doesn't expand, but doesn't take away. And then you've got the active side, right, of the spectrum. So active, destructive, I don't think many people intentionally do. I don't think many people would say that they do. It's normally if you're like, you know, if there's maybe some bad relationship dynamics already. So this is where we start pointing out the negatives. So the example I always love to hear with is someone comes home and goes, hey, really good news. I've been offered a promotion at work. The response from their partner is like, okay, well, is that going to take more hours? How much more like do you have the capacity for that at the moment with what's happening with the family? So we're actively destroying someone's joy, we're actively destroying someone's happiness. The one that we should all aim for way more often is active constructive responding. And it takes effort. That's why it's in the active space. Yeah. Right? Passive is easy, right? And we're all busy, we don't have much time or energy in life. So we need to intentionally practice it. So active constructive is I'm gonna, hey, let me connect with you on this celebration and let me expand it with you. So they come home and go, hey, good news I'm being considered for a promotional work. Oh, tell me more about that. Like, how'd you find out about it? Like, get curious. How are you feeling about it? Like, do you feel it's something that you want to go for? And they're like, Yeah, I do. It's like, yeah, cool. Like, talk to me more about that. Like, we're just trying to get curious and expand. So the way we do it, connect, be present. Yeah, be present with them. And then ask questions. Get curious. Like, curiosity is such a beautiful thing for fostering connection. And you'll find that, you'll find that with kids.

Speaker: 17:17
Like it's the one biggest thing that I've probably learned over is just to give them space sometimes to sit there and go and digest almost digest the day. Um, like now that my daughter's at Kindy, that has been like she doesn't straight away doesn't want to tell you everything. But gradually you get dripford over the next 24 hours, what actually happened during the day, and you go, Oh. I mean, like, I as a kid, I know that I had conversations where you'd get home from school and one of your parents would be like, What happened? What you know, what did you get up to today? And I'd be like, Oh, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing, nothing happened in my whole day. Don't ask me. 

Speaker: 17:58
Um, what actually inspired you to um yeah, establish BU Happiness College?

Speaker 2: 18:05
Um, I I just said before, you know, I try these days to do hard things with much more consideration and intentionality and a lot less recklessness. Um I actually wonder now if I would start a social enterprise focusing on the skills and science of happiness. And I don't know if I would. So I like what inspired me? Recklessness, like a lot of recklessness and a high degree of hope. Uh, and I think that's what's carried me to this uh to some degree over the last eight years. How it started was I'd been learning a lot about positive psychology, about coaching, about acceptance and commitment therapy, basically about all these tools and techniques that were shown to help people live happier lives. And I'd been learning it for myself because I'd been on my own journey about working out my sense of self, my own mental health, trying to figure out what happiness meant to me. And the more I learnt about that, the more I went, why has this been so hard to learn about? Like, why have I had to go to all these different places, all these different sources, spend all this amount of money to figure out stuff that I kind of wish I learnt in school? And at the time, my fiance at the time, now my wife, we were traveling the US. We were, I think, over there for about eight weeks, and we were, you know, early 20s, burning through a lot of our um savings. And we got back to LA ready to come home, and I went, Hey, when we get home, I think I want to quit my job and try something new. And she was like, Okay, what do you want to try? And I said, Well, I think like imagine if there was like a college or like a school or a space that taught people the skills to be happier human beings, not just the skills to be good employees. Like, so much of our education system is built around teaching you to be good at your job, not teaching you how to be good at life, and so I went, I just wish there was a space where I could have done that instead of spending all this time and money doing it kind of fractionally. And you know, in hindsight, I kind of joked, I was like, you know, kind of like a happiness college. And to her credit, she didn't say yes straight away. She's like, Seems like a big risk. Um and on the flight all the way home, she's like, Okay, well, what are we gonna do for money and income in the meantime? And I said, Well, that house deposit that we've saved, we can live off that for a little bit. And thankfully, by the time we landed in Sydney, what, 12, 14 hours later from LA to Sydney? She went, Let's give it a year or two and see what happens. That was a little over eight years ago, and we've now got members and graduates in five countries. Um, and I'm I cannot see myself doing any other work other than teaching the skills and science of happiness and and playing my part in making the world a little bit happier. So thankfully, I had a lot of hope and a lot of recklessness when I was younger, and my wife was willing to back that.

Speaker: 20:37
I I love that story. Um do you think that hope, having that little glimmer of hope, it kind of reflects on the vision of you going forward and other people kind of seeing it and then going, Oh, okay, I get it. I want to sort of join in and sort of align with that.

Speaker 2: 20:59
Yeah, I've my sense of hope has been re-inspired year on year by the people who've chosen to rally around what we're doing as a social enterprise, be that our members, our graduates, our workplace clients, even just people who follow, you know, our podcast or watch my content and share it around, or send me a message on LinkedIn and say that what I'm sharing is resonating with them. I think I've been able to witness over the last eight or nine years of doing this work, people are a lot more willing and ready to talk about the value and importance of happiness and positive mental and emotional well-being now. I think we went through an era, early 2000s, even 2010s, of mental health awareness and talking more about mental health, which is really important. I'm glad we did. I think we're now entering an era of mental health advocacy and action where people are going, okay, cool, like we're talking more about mental health. What do I do with it? Like, how do I actually take care of my own well being? How do I take care of my happiness? How do I Help my loved ones with their mental and emotional well-being. Like, what does that look like on a tangible, practical, day-by-day way? And that wouldn't have been possible had we not gone through the mental health awareness era. But I think we're now in this era of mental health action and advocacy, which has been a lot more aligned with what we do as a college, right? This more proactive approach to mental and emotional development.

Speaker: 22:21
I can see that. I can see, you know, you can kind of get the sense of that feeling as well. It's not hard to see that, you know, people are wanna be able to use um, you know, days like and I know that we've had chats about Are You OK Day and use that for action, but it should be action that should be daily. Things that you know just keep ticking over check-ins with people and you know, making sure that your friends and family are all well, essentially. 

Speaker: 22:55
Um I mean going into the personal branding side of things, did you intentionally try to become the happiness guy? Because I mean that if that's something I've picked up on or whether that's just something that's out there.

Speaker 2: 23:09
Yeah, no, so being known as that happiness guy was a complete accident. Um, it was actually when I changed my name on LinkedIn to that. So everybody looks me up on LinkedIn, it's like Declan, That Happiness Sky Edwards. And even now, like TikTok channel is that happiness guy. I'm getting ready to launch a YouTube channel on that happiness guy. Yeah. That happened because a couple years ago, just after the first few rounds of COVID lockdowns when in-person networking events were starting to pop back up. Yeah, I started going out to these networking events. Yeah, right. And finding that I'd talk to people and introduced myself, and there was a few in a row where people would be like, Oh, wait, I know you. You're that happiness guy. Like you're that guy who talks about happiness and like you research happiness, and happiness is kind of your jam.

Speaker: 23:50
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:50
They did not remember my name.

Speaker: 23:51
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 23:52
The amount of people that I'd meet. I even had people reach out to me who were like, hey, had dinner with a friend, and they were telling me all about this happiness guy that their workplace had brought in.

Speaker 1: 24:02
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:02
And they were raving about the session and how good it was and how they learned so much and they loved this happiness guy. And I asked them who it was. They could not tell me the name, but I'm pretty sure it must be you because there's not many people who do this kind of work, right? Especially in the local area.

unknown: 24:16
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:17
And so I just I remember talking to our team at the time, and uh the guy who was in charge of our marketing at the time, he goes, lean in, run with it. Like if people are remembering you as that happiness guy, I mean, there's worse things to be remembered as and known as. So stuff it, let's see what happens. And so on a bit of a weirma, I was like, okay, let's update the LinkedIn, Declan that happiness guywards. And I to this day, the amount of people who'll be like, hey, someone I know just you know was at this conference and they were talking about this keynote speaker who was talking all about happiness and the science of happiness, and they really liked it. Was that you by any chance? And I was like, It was actually. Did your friend remember me? And they're like, they remembered you, just not your name. So I don't know if Declan's just not a memorable name, but um, that happiness guy seems to stick.

Speaker: 24:58
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, like, it's not, yeah, like you said, it's not a bad thing to lean into that. Um, you know, I've been through space myself where you know gone through the photographer era and kind of tried really hard over the last few years to step away from that entirely, which has involved me doing less and less photography whilst I still love it and I still do it. It definitely um the more you get out and about doing those things and having those discussions or doing the photography or whatever you know you're going into, people start building this kind of perception of you as that person and then don't realize there's other layers.

Speaker 2: 25:43
Yeah, well, I will say on that too, like something I've been very mindful of, particularly over the last 12 months, I think, is as much as I'm becoming known as that happiness guy, like I'm a human being first and a happiness researcher second. So I know so much of the content that I put out there, the conversations that I have, even on podcasts like this, or even in real life, I'm like, hey, just because I've spent over a decade studying the science of happiness doesn't mean I feel happy every moment of every day. Like that's not the goal. The goal here is to be able to learn tools to manage our mind and emotions more effectively, to be able to try to savour the good moments when they're here and navigate through the really tough moments a bit more effectively when they're here.

Speaker: 26:20
Because they they do come. Oh undoubtedly. Um yeah, I can see that. It's nice to be able to, like from my perspective, getting you onto the podcast was more of a opportunity to get you get to know you a bit better as well. Um, and I don't think that's you know it's also always you know something I'm sure a lot of people would wish they would be able to do and just saying, all right, okay. We all know him from his work, but outside of that, I mean I know you across LinkedIn as well, and some of your unhinged posts, which always hit. Um they're always uh they're always fun to sort of join in the conversation and you know, step outside of your comfort zone and go, Oh, maybe I can think about this in a different

Speaker: 27:06
 way. And I've always wondered, like, where did you get some of the inspiration for those posts, or was it just sitting there mindlessly just thinking about different aspects and stumbling across something?

Speaker 2: 27:19
I think I think two things. So one is I have a bit of a love of just shit talking. Like uh I'm a bit of a shit talker. Like sometimes I'll just I I I love the idea of actually my wife and I recently recently purchased a board game. Um, I don't remember the name of it because the name's not even on the board game. It's just I bought it because the picture of it on the front was so nice. Yeah, but the background of it is like you know, you're all artists competing for an art prize, and you've got to layer these translucent cards on top of each other to make an artwork.

unknown: 27:47
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 27:48
It's a really well-designed board game, it's fantastic.

Speaker: 27:50
Sounds amazing.

Speaker 2: 27:51
We added an element to it just for our own fun of like when you finished making your artwork, you had to present it to everyone else playing the game, and you had to describe your uh inspiration behind it like the most self-assured, kind of obnoxious artist you could imagine embodying. And the shit talk that comes out of that is hilarious. I think part of me just loves having a bit of a shit talk. So when I got on LinkedIn, I remember for a while, especially when I went from the majority of my work being working with individuals on their happiness skills to helping organizations measure happiness and improve happiness amongst their employee experience. I went, Oh, I've got to be more professional now. I've got to be more serious. And I got on LinkedIn and went, okay, time to be serious. And it didn't really work for me. Like one of my top five character strengths is humor, which means I now tell people that like science says that means I'm funny. So if you don't laugh at my jokes, like you are fundamentally denying science and a whole different conversation for us to have. So I was like, well, let's just do that. Let's clean in, let's have a bit of fun. So let's talk some shit on LinkedIn. And it went really well. The other thing was I did a short stint working for quite a large organization last year in the corporate setting. It was my first stint in-house because we're talking about me coming as a consultant, we couldn't line that up. Uh, you know, I was gonna be an advisor, couldn't line that up, and then I was like, yep, let's go in in-house for a six-month stint. And I think there's just so much absurdity about the normal world of work. There's so much that I think we've just taken as normal and we don't step back and go, but why is it a thing that we have to have all of these systems and processes? Why is it a thing that every email gets marked as critically urgent and important when it's probably not because we're not actually doing brain surgery in in this industry, right? Like why is it that we all have to work in you know when arguing about return to work when for the last two years everyone's worked more effectively with flexible working arrangements? So, like, I think I was able to see the normal world of corporate work, which is normally showcased so well on LinkedIn, through this kind of absurdist lens of like, this is crazy, why are we doing things this way? And and those have always seemed to go well.

Speaker: 29:50
I can see that. I it's funny. I I I posted something recently, I can't even remember what it was for the life of me, but it was something along the lines of an AI sort of reflection, and I it wasn't that I made a 3D model of myself, and then all of a sudden I started getting these. Uh I posted the prompt that I used in in my comments, and all of a sudden I was getting people tagging me across LinkedIn just for creating this prompt that other people then started using, and it'd like the attraction that got me was absurd, but I was also like I mean it I did it for a bit of fun. I definitely wasn't that interested in you know getting anything from it, and I'm definitely not an expert in AI, but yeah, it was interesting. 

Speaker: 30:41
Something we have touched on uh obviously you know, the emotional side of things, but I wanted to sort of swing it back into my lane a little bit and kind of ask you how you think brands could tap into the the positive psychology to, I guess, yeah, build emotional resonance.

Speaker 2: 30:60
I think there's a real rising hunger amongst consumers these days, which includes me, I buy things, right? Like anyone who wants to buy things, there's a real rising hunger, and there's data and evidence about this up, particularly in younger generations, for people wanting to choose to work with brands that are doing net positive in the world and net good in the world. And so I think you know, we've seen this era of sort of like greenwashing where organizations say they're doing really good things, but are they? How well do you track that? Like, I think what I would love to see brands doing, and actually, I'd I'd put a call out to not just large brands, right? I think there's a common mistake in philanthropy and business and social enterprise and business and giving back and being a for-purpose brand. That people go, oh, well, once we're really big and successful, then we'll do that. And I'm like, no, no, no, like it's the opposite, right? It's it's if you can find a way to show that you stand for something that you're giving back and that you're making the world better through what you do, then people will rally to that. And and one of the ways I love doing that, I don't know if the listeners have heard of an organization or if you've heard of an organization called B1G1.

Speaker: 32:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:08
Yeah, so it's like buy one, give one. Yeah. So they're our social enterprise like charity partner. So basically, every time someone does something at BU Happiness College, we create a positive impact somewhere in the world as a result. So as a result, um, so or as an example, someone enrolls at the Happiness College to learn the skills and science of happiness for themselves. We actually fund a week-long uh retreat and vocational camp in India for underprivileged youth to learn personal and professional development skills, which makes it more likely that they get jobs and they get out of the poverty cycle.

Speaker 1: 32:41
Yeah, cool.

Speaker 2: 32:41
So everyone who comes to the college, we're like, hey, you're doing something good for you, but also you've just funded this week-long program for someone that you will probably never meet. And so I think we could even get better around those giving stories. Like I just had a meeting this week with our team to kind of go, hey, these are our giving stories. How do we talk about them all? How do we share them all? And and how do we do them across all lengths of the business from yes, people enrolling at the college all the way up to you know, people who are into branding and marketing and building businesses, like top of the funnel sort of stuff. So for us, like we've just launched our podcast or relaunched it a couple months ago. Um, and we went, hey, for everyone who subscribes to How to Be Happy, let's protect one square meter of rainforest. And we looked through B1G1 and went, how much would that cost us too? And we went, okay, would we be willing to pay that much to uh to encourage someone to subscribe to our show? Because by subscribing to our show, they learn about the skills and science of happiness, yeah, yada. And I went, yeah, we would be willing to pay that. And so that's just you know examples from us. But I've seen coffee shops do this where they go, hey, for every coffee we sell, we donate a day of clean drinking water. I think what brands could learn from positive psychology is do good things, like genuinely do good things, and share it and talk about it regularly. And people will want to come on that journey with you.

Speaker: 33:52
Yeah, and I think it's that once you've then stumbled across that message that you want to use, is actually talking about it. And I think what people, what small brands are really bad at is uh finding a message, using it once, but you have to use it something like 12 times for it to be actually be able to sit with people. A lot of people will miss it the first 11 times and then they go, Oh, oh, you do that, okay.

Speaker 2: 34:20
As someone who's you know a specialist in in branding as yourself, like you're gonna cringe when you hear this. I had so much resistance for so long to repurposing my content. I thought everything I put out on every platform had to be completely new and original and like off the top of my head. And A, that's exhausting and unsustainable, right? But B, it kind of led to me eventually starting to dilute our message a little bit. Whereas I went, hang on, like, what do we stand for? Okay, we we fundamentally believe that the more people who learn about the skills and science of happiness, the happier the world becomes. That's us at our core. So, what's our job to do then? Teach the skills and science of happiness. Do that repeatedly. And so now, oh so much easier because I can go, well, we did this post a while ago about this particular skill, people like that. That's let's turn that into a video, we'll turn that into a podcast episode, and then we can repeat it. And and ironically, to your point, not only is that good for branding, it's also good for learning. People aren't gonna learn the skills and signs of happiness because they listened to one podcast episode. I did that one time. No, they're gonna learn it by this repeated exposure to it.

Speaker: 35:25
Yep. Yeah, and I I it's the same goes for and I've I've got a heap of blog posts um all around branding and sort of you know discovering your purpose or your brand values, and you know, you're looking at all these individual things, but if you don't talk about them or you teach them only in a seminar or workshop space, that's the only time that they get discovered, and you're in a like a you know, a closed environment. It doesn't go further than those walls. So it you know, it can be yeah, it's definitely worth um doing that. Do you think a brand can be uh emotionally intelligent, or do you think it's mm the people within the business that are kind of yeah, obviously working in it day to day?

Speaker 2: 36:13
I might answer it this way. Like, I I think it would be very hard for a brand or an organization to present itself as emotionally intelligent if it doesn't have highly emotionally intelligent people working within it. Right? Like, from my perspective, yeah, we can sort of manufacture and create brands, but I think the best brands that last and withstand the test of time and make cut through an impact come from some place of authenticity. Yeah. Come from some place of genuine alignment, right? And so if you have people in your team who are highly, and when we talk about emotional intelligence, let's even break down what that is, right? Being able to be aware of emotions and have emotional literacy and be able to name them. I know something that we've been having conversations about off air is expanding emotional literacy, being able to understand people's emotional states and empathize with them and communicate well with them when they're in that space, and then being able to manage emotions effectively, right? If we don't have leaders and decision makers in workplaces who are highly skilled at that, it'd be very difficult for the brand to do those and present well as that. At least not in a way that's going to last. You know what I mean? Like you could you could falsify it and project it. Yeah. I think people are pretty discerning these days.

Speaker: 37:25
Yeah. I think, yeah, I think people can smell bullshit. Yeah. Um, you know, that authentic, uh, original uh those those sort of terms they get bandied around, you know. Everyone wants to sort of have the you know, really unique brand or a bit at the crux of it. I'm like having something that people resonate with, that's more important than you know, trying to be seen to be doing the right things and appearing emotionally intelligent.

Speaker 2: 37:55
Well, and even to that point, like yeah, having things that people care about and then resonates with people is more important. Even go one step back and then go having something that you genuinely care about is most important.

unknown: 38:06
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:06
Like, do you genuinely give a shit about what you're doing?

unknown: 38:09
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:10
Because if you don't, it's gonna be hard to convince other people to give a shit about it.

Speaker: 38:13
Oh, massively. I mean, uh that's what it's probably why a lot of people that have gone into business and they've they've failed within that first sort of two to three years was they've gone, oh you know, we want to go into business and we're creating this brand. I'm like, you don't just go in straight away and create this brand, that happens over time, it's very much strategic. Yep. And you kind of go in there with intentions to do this thing and do it to the best of your abilities, and you kind of learn and it evolves. I'm like, I'm sure your business has evolved massively since those early days.

Speaker 2: 38:47
Yeah, and it still will continue to because I've evolved massively since then. Yeah, like I've changed. I hope my business continues to change with it. And yeah, well, to your point, I I I think we could probably I hope we agree on this one. Like from my perspective, when it comes to building a movement, building a business, whatever it may be, personal brand, business brand, marketing funnel, advertising, all this sort of stuff. They're tools in the toolkit. You know, there it's having the hammer and the screwdriver and all the equipment that you need to build the house. My goal is to set out to build a really good house. My goal's not to set out to use the hammer really well, right? The hammer is a the brand is part of the process to build something that matters.

Speaker: 39:27
Have you seen a kind of a link between yeah, internal culture and external sort of brand identity?

Speaker 2: 39:37
I've seen what happens when those don't link up well. Like I've seen when there's a disconnect.

Speaker: 39:41
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:42
Right? When when an uh organization projects as its external, sort of outside looking in, and you know, they might you know they they do these um awards and they get recognized as like an employer of choice, but then none of their staff are actually surveyed in that process. It was just executives filling out the answers that they thought the judges would want to see. And like, you know what I mean? Like they they game the system like crazy.

Speaker: 40:04
Oh, massively.

Speaker 2: 40:05
And then so people apply for this job based on this brand that's being projected. And within three weeks of being internal, they're like, What have I done? This is a terrible mistake. I've been catfished by this, by this workplace. And I just think, you know, the modern the modern recruiting and interviewing process is also kind of just so built on fluff and and BS when it's done wrong. Yeah. Right. When you know you sit down and you're like, tell us your strengths, and then you yap away from a bit, and they're like, And what are your weaknesses? And you're like, I work too much and I care too hard, right? Like, or work too hard and care too much, right? Whatever way you want to mix that up. And then you go, tell me about the culture, like how the oh yeah, you know, like everything, we're a family here, and like everything's going really well. Like, yeah, I don't know. I just think when those don't line up, like, and what I see so much more effectively. So we see we partner with workplaces to do real data-driven, evidence-informed diagnostics and surveys on their employee experience. So we measure the five major contributing factors to workplace happiness and we survey all of their stuff anonymously about it. And we go back to them and say, hey, this is what you're doing really well. These are your gaps, this is what we recommend you do to improve those gaps. Choose from the recommendations what you're actually going to commit to, because don't bullshit people. What are you actually going to commit to? Go back and tell everyone. We've seen organizations start using that in their external brand too, and go, hey, for everyone who's thinking of working here or thinking of partnering with us or thinking of buying from us, we've just done this study on our workplace culture and our employee experience. This is what we're really proud to say that we're doing well, and here's the data to back it up. This is where we've acknowledged that we can do better.

Speaker 1: 41:40
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:40
And this is how we're planning on doing better. That transparency and honesty and inviting people on the journey, I find has been so much more valuable for them than only giving the highlights real.

Speaker 1: 41:50
Yeah.

Speaker: 41:51
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I uh over the last two to three years I've done more brand audits. So you'd go in not to not to the extent that you would, but having interviews with customers or interviews with uh staff and finding out you know what are the what are the gaps? Like nothing, you know, nothing I'm I you know, are you aware of you know what the brand's values are? Can you communicate them? How do you how should you be talking about the brand when you're out in public or when a customer comes to you? Or you know, is the customer do they get that same impression as what's being sort of led? Um there's always there's you know, and for everyone, I'm sure I could take a look at BU Happiness College and recommend some bits and pieces, but like there's always opportunities where you go, oh okay, that doesn't quite align. Um give them a hard time, it's just to make try and make improvements. Give them the opportunity to sort of see where they could, you know, reap some benefits. 

Speaker: 42:56
If a company uh is going to go through a rebrand, how do you think leadership could use happiness science to uh I guess support the transition to that new brand?

Speaker 2: 43:12
So if you were talking to the team, how do you think that could Yeah I I mean look, whether it's a brand transition or any transition, I think understanding a little bit about the psychology of change is really useful, particularly as a bare minimum, knowing that uh there's some research that suggests at at minimum for someone to develop a change in their psychology, their emotional state, their perception, their habits, their behavior. A minimum for us to see it stick is about 12 to 13 weeks of consistent intervention and support and training. Now that's in lab conditions. So that is we're taking care of that person's entire life. They're not worried about paying the bills and putting food on the table and all the other parenting and all the other responsibilities, we're just focusing on. That's psychological change. Yeah, right. I don't know about you, but for me, my life rarely feels like lab conditions, unless it's like some chaotic science lab. It doesn't feel ideal, right? Life doesn't always go to plan, it doesn't always feel idealistic or perfect. So this is why when we have people come to the college, I go, hey, look, whether you're here as an individual or you're here as a workplace, if you're genuinely wanting change that sticks, you've got to prepare yourself at minimum six months, probably looking more towards 12 months to make it last.

Speaker 1: 44:26
Yep.

Speaker 2: 44:27
And I think in an era where we've gotten used to the idea of like quick fixes being sold and like silver bullet strategies and like we want it all done now really fast, and you know, we can get answers at the click of a button on our phone for things.

Speaker: 44:40
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:41
I think there's something that I mean, I've joked with our team before. I'm like, man, if I was a charlatan and just an absolute like snake oil salesman, we'd probably be a lot bigger than we are now, revenue-wise. Because I'd just come out and go, do this one magic thing, and you'll be infinitely happier.

Speaker 1: 44:54
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:54
Instead, our brand message is like, hey, you need to really intentionally work on learning about happiness and practicing happiness for six months to a year to get a difference.

Speaker: 45:02
That's a hell of a commitment.

Speaker 2: 45:04
Right? It's not sexy. It's not a sexy offer, right? No. But it's the truth. That's what science says. So even when we go to organizations, I'm, I don't know, maybe you've uh ruffled some feathers before saying to workplaces, hey, if you want to bring me in as like a once-off lunch and learn on like mental health month or whatever, or are you okay today?

Speaker 1: 45:21
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:22
You can do that once to see if we gel with each other and if your staff like learning from us. Yeah. But after that, you've got to commit to something more long term because otherwise you're just doing a tick box strategy and I'm becoming the poster boy for band-aid fixes in your workplace.

Speaker: 45:36
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:36
And I don't want to do that with my code.

Speaker: 45:37
I don't want to be the poster boy. Right?

Speaker 2: 45:39
Like, I don't want to do band-aid fixes, I want to do stuff that actually works.

Speaker 1: 45:41
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:42
And some organizations really, I think, respect that radical candor and that honesty and that, you know, uh integrity. And others kind of shy away and they go find some other poster child to talk about mental health once a year and say they're doing good things for their staff. But for any change, be it a brand change, be it a personal change, be it whatever change you're doing with your team, you've got to be willing to go, hey, at minimum, this is three months in perfect conditions.

unknown: 46:05
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:05
Conditions are not going to be perfect. So are we willing to put in the work and effort and consistency for the next six months to make this change stick? And if you're not, start asking whether the change is worth it in the first place. Yeah. Why are you doing the change if you're not willing to put six months into it?

Speaker: 46:19
I liken it to the fact that you know there's a there's a lot of companies out there in my space who are giving people the opportunity to you know get a rebrand or get a brand refresh and you know, delivered within six weeks. And I'm like, it's one of those things that I I'd love to be able to deliver that and deliver it but to a level that I'm like I wouldn't be delivering it to the level that I'd hope to be able to do. Yeah, and that I know is gonna give positive results.

Speaker 1: 46:53
Yeah.

Speaker: 46:54
So then you're like, wow, it's good to be able to do all the research and do all the um, you know, the front-end stuff, all the foundational stuff, before you then go, okay, well, like if we do it like this, this is exactly the reason why it's gonna work. But that is gonna get you towards the outcome that you want. It all makes sense when you kind of speak through it, but it's really shiny to go, I can do you a new brand in six weeks, we'll have your website done in four weeks after that. I'm like, it's not realistic.

Speaker 2: 47:26
And it might sound blunt, but like sometimes when I do get pushback from other individuals or or workplaces who are looking at partnering with us at BU Happiness College, and I'm like, hey, you need to be ready for this to be a six to twelve month commitment. And they push back, I turn around and I go, the next six to twelve months is gonna go by whether you're doing it or not.

unknown: 47:43
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:43
The fact of the matter is, time is gonna go. And and from my experience, I think a lot of the listeners will probably resonate to this, each year seems to go a little bit faster than the previous one. I don't think time's slowing down. I think time's speeding up. And I've been warned, obviously, got my first child on the way. I've been warned that that gets even faster once I've got a kid here. So you just you just wait. Right? So it'll hit you. Time is not slowing down, it's going faster. So I'm like, hey, the next six to twelve months is gonna go by in the blink of an eye. You're either gonna spend that time genuinely improving your workplace culture, your team's skills when it comes to effective leadership, when it comes to emotional intelligence, like the skills of happiness in your organization, or if we're talking individual, you're gonna spend that time learning the skills that help you manage your mind and emotions better, or you're not. That's it. Like the time's gonna pass either way. So ask yourself, what do I want to be doing in that time?

Speaker: 48:32
Makes sense. Absolutely makes sense.

Speaker: 48:35
 In your kind of view, do you think there's a um happiness equivalent to brand equity where you're building something up? Do you and and if so, how do you and I know you've spoken about measuring it, but how do you measure that?

Speaker 2: 48:52
I think there's this is part of what we talk a lot about resilience. I think part of resilience is having kind of emotional equity. Yeah. Right? So having this kind of like bounce back room when life throws a curveball either for your team or for yourself. It's like, hey, we're demanding a withdrawal now of your emotional resources.

Speaker: 49:13
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:13
And you're let's be honest, yeah, like your emotional resources could be sadness, anger. It could also be, I don't know if you felt this before. I know a lot of people I talk to, and I feel this too. After big milestone life accomplishments and big highs, that's a demand on emotional resources too. Like after I do a big live event, I'll have a bit of a come down, a little bit of a crash afterwards and energetically.

Speaker 1: 49:33
Yep.

Speaker 2: 49:34
So something happens in life and goes, we're demanding emotional resources from you.

Speaker: 49:38
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:39
If you're sitting, you know, sometimes I talk about imagine having like the little icon in your car that tells you how much fuel you've got left in the tank. And some people go, Okay, I I actually my father-in-law, I remember, would always tell my wife, never let it go below halfway. He was like real on the reserved conservative side. Like, when it gets halfway, that's your sign to refill.

Speaker 1: 49:58
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:59
Meanwhile, here's me going, Oh, it's flashing orange. How long can I last before I fill it up? Like, can I really push the edge on it a bit? To this day, I've never run out of fuel fully, but I think I've got it very close. So imagine the same thing in your mind emotionally. Yeah. Right? Or in your team, either for yourself or for your workplace, going, hey, if we are sitting on empty and something comes along that demands emotional capacity from us and emotional resources from us, our resilience, our ability to bounce back to change, our ability to adapt well, our ability to do well and make good decisions here, next to nothing. And at that point, I don't care if someone goes to you, hey, it's gonna feel a lot better in three months' time. Like, I don't have enough to get through three months. That'll be like someone coming to me and going, Hey, I know your fuel light's flashing. Good news, the twin servos is 100 Ks up the road. Man, I'm not gonna make it to the twin servos. I need something now. Right? And so, you know, to answer your question, I think the more people consciously and intentionally work on their happiness skills consistently, they've topped up what's in their emotional reserve, either for themselves or for their team and their organization. So that when life inevitably does throw things that goes, Hey, we need something from you right now, you've got it there to give.

Speaker: 51:06
I like that. If you were to give me uh one happiness principle or the or that you think that you know somebody like me, a brand strategist, you know, brand designer, should understand and apply to their work, what would that be?

Speaker 2: 51:21
Oh, I'm not an expert on on your field of work, but I think just the the one principle at happiness that I I could click my fingers and make every single person in the world, regardless of field of work, just fully embrace something about happiness. It's treat happiness as a skill. Yeah, I can. Treat it as a series of skills, which means a couple of things. It means you can learn how to do it better. And most people haven't learnt the skills of happiness, right? Well, they're they're I I I I admitted recently um in another conversation I was having that I went to a friend once and they know my whole thesis about happiness being a skill set and therefore it takes effort. And I said, Oh, I wish I could draw as well as you draw. I'm a terrible drawer. And they went, Well, Daclan, when did you last draw and practice drawing? And I said, Look, probably when I was eight years old.

Speaker 1: 52:05
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:05
And I went, okay, so you're a man in his 30s who draws like an eight-year-old child.

Speaker: 52:09
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:09
I went, yes. And if you saw any of my drawings, you would believe it. And they went, Well, why do you expect anything different?

unknown: 52:15
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:16
If that's what you last practiced. I went, ah, that's a good point. And so it's the same with happiness skills. If you're like, okay, well, I'm not a very confident person, okay. When did you last learn about the psychology of confidence and practice it? If you're like, oh, I don't manage my emotions very well, okay, when did you last learn about that and practice it? For most people, the answer is never. Or like one luncheon learn that happened at work one time. Or maybe they read one self-help book or listen to one podcast. Like, so treating happiness as a skill means A, I can get better at this. B, it means I probably don't need to start from scratch and reinvent the wheel. There's probably people out there who've dedicated their life to studying the skill of happiness. I'm one of them, but there are many others that I've learned from, right? So then go, okay, well, why don't I just pinch their tools and strategies? Like for me, it blows my mind that I can go read a book from someone who spent 40 years studying positive psychology. You're like, oh, that's interesting. Let's pinch that, right? You know, let's let's use that. So, and then see, it gives yourself a bit of compassion and grace to go, like any skill, it's gonna take time, and I'm probably gonna stuff it up a lot, right? Like, if you're learning a language, you don't expect yourself to be fluent straight away. If you're learning an instrument, you don't expect yourself to hit all the right chords immediately. When it comes to learning the skills of happiness, you're probably gonna stuff them up a bit. And that doesn't mean that you're wrong or bad or terrible or you know, the one I regularly talk to people about is like it is genuinely valuable for happiness to practice meditation. People go, Oh, I've tried it. I'm like, how often? Like, oh, once or twice. Yeah, so you suck at meditation. If you picked up the guitar and strummed it once or twice, you would suck at guitar, right? You need to stick with it. So if I could snap my fingers in everyone who listens to this conversation or stumbles across it, just one thing, treat happiness like a skill that you're gonna suck at for a bit. Yeah. And keep going with it because it's well well and truly worth it.

Speaker: 53:54
Have has your drawing got any better since that conversation?

Speaker 2: 53:57
I mean, little bits, little bits. I set myself the challenge of trying to draw more regularly off the back of that. And I drew my wife a um uh like a Mother's Day card and was like, okay, I'm gonna learn how to draw our dogs. So we've got a Labrador and a Staffy, so I goed like how to draw a Labrador, how to draw a Staffi. Like sitting there learning. They're currently on the fridge, so they're not bad enough that you know she looked at them and laughed and threw them out. So they're still there. Um, but I've definitely got a bit of a way to go.

Speaker: 54:25
Drawing is massively a skill. I it's actually something I didn't I for all the work that I do, graphic design, it's still a skill that I have spent so much time just practicing. And I still do because I in my head I'm a I'm an awful you know artist. And that's probably because I'm very literal with what I end up drawing. Like so, but if you were to say draw me draw you or draw a dog, I'd just be like I'm gonna I'm gonna simplify it. I'm gonna make it, you know, dog shaped and you know, make sure that you know it's got all the right features, but the detail's not gonna be in there. But yeah, I can see how that would be yeah, something something to learn about. 

Speaker: 55:14
And so you mentioned and this is the last question, you mentioned meditation. Are there any other really good practices that people could just slip in whether it's you know five minutes, five minutes a day when they're busy busy routine, could be sat there in the car when they find that little gap where they go, okay, I'll just sit back and just assess the day or yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:40
I'll give two that I think everyone needs to do more of, including myself. Like I don't think there's an upper limit for these two, but the more you do them, the better. So, yes, meditation, we'll have that in there. On top of that, any time that you get to expand your emotional literacy is critically important because I think a lot of people know about emotional intelligence now. We've been talking about it since the eighties and nineties. It's hard to be intelligent with something that you can't name, and so a lot of people don't have the vocabulary and language to even distinguish between different emotions. And so if so if we say to people, how are you feeling today? you might get one of five answers.

Speaker: 56:18
Good.

Speaker 2: 56:18
Good, bad, not bad, stressed. My favorite is especially in Australia, how are you feeling today? And they're like, Oh, you know, and I'm like, no, no, I don't, that's why I've asked you. Like, and also you know is not an emotion. Right. So just expanding your emotional literacy is profoundly impactful for your ability to recognize and healthily work through your emotions. And you can get curious with them. So I I recommend people do a tool called a two-word check-in. Yeah, which is if I was to describe how work went today or how I felt at this event or how I'm feeling right now, maybe you could do it at the end of this podcast. If I was to describe how I felt in two words and two words only from listening to this podcast, what two words would I use? Yeah. The reason we say two words and two words only, it cuts past all the mind chatter and all the thoughts. We tend to think in sentences, but we feel in single words. Right? So I say, give me two words and two words only, no more. And people might listen to this, they might go, My hope is that as a result of this conversation, not to put feelings into your body or into your mind. You might go, Oh, I felt intrigued or curious or inspired. Or maybe you're still feeling furious from the start because you're on the tomato bandwagon.

Speaker: 57:25
You mentioned it.

Speaker 2: 57:26
And you love raw tomatoes, and you're still just boiling away at my hatred of them. I don't care what it is. Whatever it is, you're like, okay, I'm feeling X. Yeah. Right? If and then what'll happen is over a few days, you get bored of putting the same two answers down. And so you start going, okay, well, am I feeling frustrated or annoyed? What's the difference between those two? Am I feeling inspired or energized? What's the difference between those? Right. So emotional literacy is such a critically underdeveloped skill in the vast majority of people.

Speaker 1: 57:57
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:58
The second one, practice gratitude and appreciation a hell of a lot more. Hell of a lot more. Now, whether you want to do it as like a gratitude journal, jot down three things that went well that day and why they went well, three things you're grateful for and why, or you just want to consciously notice it a bit more and go, this is something I appreciate. Or my favorite one, just say thank you a hell of a lot more. Like if you're thinking nice things, something I've been practicing lately for myself is if I think about someone, I text them and I go, hey, just want to let you know, you put you popped up in my mind today. I'm thinking of you. That's all it is, right? But just showing appreciation and gratitude for the good things that you already have around you and within you is something we could all get a hell of a lot more better at.

Speaker: 58:33
Amazing.

Speaker: 58:34
 Is there any um any sort of, you know, if you want to point people in your direction? Obviously, that's the main aim for today. How do people get in touch with you? And yeah, how do you what do you prefer?

Speaker 2: 58:46
Yeah, I mean, well, first and foremost, if you're someone who loves raw tomatoes, you're not invited to the heck. No, I'm kidding. Um, everyone's invited to come learn about the skills and sides of happiness, even if you like tomatoes. Um, I mentioned earlier that we've just relaunched uh our podcast, which is called How to Be Happy. So you'll find that everywhere. Um and I mentioned earlier that it's tied to one of our United Nations giving goals through B1G1. So everyone who subscribes to that show, we protect a square meter of rainforest. So feel free to think of this as a little bit of emotional blackmail to say if you don't come and subscribe to our show. Not only do you not learn the skills and signs of happiness, but a square meter of rainforest will be logged because of you. I'm kidding. Um but come across, learn about the skills and signs of happiness, we'll do good things in the world as a result. Um, obviously, all the socials follow us on there. Um, and yeah, we'll we'll include some links to check out some of our free tools. We've got a happiness scorecard and some other resources that people like to use for their own emotional intelligence and self-awareness journey. Great stuff.

Speaker: 59:44
Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it massively. No, appreciate it. Thank you. One of those things that's been probably two or three years in the making. We did it.

Speaker 2: 59:54
We got there, we made it happen. Before we wrap up, I'll throw a question to you. Two-word check-in. Two-word check-in on how you're feeling at the end of your conversation.

Speaker: 01:00:03
Enlightened and pumped.

Speaker 2: 01:00:09
Nice. I feel playful and energized. I will say, the listeners can't see this. This is the first podcast interview I've ever done where we're standing. Yeah. And I think I'm a convert.

Speaker: 01:00:19
I I love this. I the first one I ever did went to the person in the studio. They were like, So, like, how do you feel with standing? I'm like, yeah, okay. Like, I've got no, but it kind of just frees you up. At first I thought I was doing a spelling bee, but then I really went into it. I'm like, this is fun. Like, I love this. But it opens your body up as well, and so you can, you know, you can breathe instead of being cramped down in a little chair, you go, oh, okay. And then you kind of yeah, fully experience it. Yeah. You can kind of have a bit of a I don't know, a um, yeah, like a it's yeah, it changes things. Sat down ones are kind of like, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 01:00:58
I think I've been more chaotic and unhinged on this podcast than anyone I've been on before. So hopefully, through the chaos and the unhingedness, go. Some people who've listened have also got some gems of wisdom about happiness.

Speaker: 01:01:08
Yeah, and tomatoes.

Speaker 2: 01:01:10
And tomatoes.

Speaker: 01:01:12
Cheers, mate.

Speaker 2: 01:01:13
Appreciate it.

Speaker: 01:01:14
Appreciate it.