The Animal Side of Orthotics and Prosthetics: Innovation in Veterinary Care with Danielle Robins

We talk with Danielle Robins about building orthoses and prostheses for pets and why veterinary rehab often lacks the training and support needed for consistent outcomes. We dig into what dogs actually need most, how remote consulting works across states and countries, and why better education could change the standard of care.

• Danielle's path from PT shadowing to O&P and then into animal orthotics after her own dog’s injury
• Why canine stifle bracing for CCL or ACL injuries dominates veterinary orthotics
• How animal biomechanics, suspension, and compliance make pet devices a different craft than human O&P
• Why cats rarely get devices and why three-legged cats often cope better than dogs
• Orthotics as a surgery alternative for ligaments, Achilles rehab, and challenging fusions
• Prosthetic candidacy, partial limb planning, and the veterinary tendency toward full amputation
• When wheelchairs and carts beat braces and prostheses
• The Orthopets shutdown and how it reshaped the veterinary O&P supply landscape
• Virtual casting support, fiberglass techniques, and using 3D scans to reduce shipping time
• Knowledge hoarding in a tiny market and Danielle's push toward a baseline certification
• Where 3D printing may fit 

Special thanks to Advanced 3D for sponsoring this episode.

Transcript

Season Kickoff And AI Speedups

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to season 13 of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast. This is where we connect with experts in the field, patients who use these devices, physical therapists, and the vendors to help bring it all together. Our mission remains the same: to share stories, tips, and insights that help improve patient outcomes. Tune in and join the conversation. We're glad you're here and hope it's the highlight of your day.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Hi everyone, my name is Yoris Peels, and this is another episode of the Prosthetics and Orthodox Podcast with Brent Wright. How are you doing, Brent?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Hey Yoris. I'm uh doing well. I have bit the AI bug pretty hard. And uh so I got into open claw and um I learned that tokens cost a lot of money.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Also, yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

I think I spent probably 75 bucks over the course of not even a full day, 24 hours. I was I was working it, and then I found out that you can do different LLMs and that sort of thing to watch your costs. But here's here's the crazy thing. So, not that it's going to be used, but so you with open claw you set up everything on a Discord server and you can you've got different bots talking to each other or whatever. So, and you know, my son plays uh baseball in college and I I was at one of their games and and they literally have somebody tracking pitches on a piece of paper. And I was like, man, there's got to be a better way. So I literally in one of my researcher channels, the the does it that has the programming agent or whatever, I said, Hey, I want this, I want to be able to track pitches, and then I want statistics after that, and then I want to be able to download that as a either a text file or an Excel file. And and literally 15 minutes later, it had the website up and going, mobile friendly, so somebody could run it on an iPad or uh an iPhone. It was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, it's it's it's it's I've been a long AI skeptic person, but I heard I learned from a lot of really good developers how they've gone like 30 times faster in like only a couple months. And uh I'm playing around with a cursor and stuff like this as well, trying to see like um you know the the the you know if I can like build websites or apps or to what extent and stuff like that. And it's it's it's it's kind of insane actually how how quickly this is developing. And and and I really don't think we'll understand the effects of this until they hit us. I think it's it's really crazy.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah, I mean, I was talking with uh somebody that's actually been on this podcast uh before who is well into the software uh side of things, and they said it's unbelievable, and they were already an unbelievable programmer and developer. And it is uh accelerating their development timelines by leaps and bounds exponentially. That is crazy. I think the other thing that's crazy is the ability to get the real-time information and then you know, you kind of scrub it. So for instance, uh my wife's in real estate, and she was like, I've got this one client, they're very, very particular about where they want to be, what kind of house they want. And I was like, just put it into my open claw and see what happens. And literally four houses showed up inside of that within a matter of seconds, and uh she's actually gonna be probably showing one of them uh here shortly. But it's it's just a matter of how it compiles all that data so fast and then discards what you don't need and distills it to what you do need, and it's it's wild. So I was definitely a big time skeptic, but now that I'm in it, I'm like, wow. And the other thing is I had a uh an email that I don't use a lot of, so I was like, okay, so what if I just let it like actually go through my email, put stuff into folders, delete the spam. It was unbelievable, all nicely organized, in box zero, which I never have. And uh yeah, it's amazing. So crazy, crazy times.

Meet A Pet Prosthetics Specialist

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Awesome. Um, yeah, I think I think we we need to maybe we maybe devote an episode to that at one point to try to figure out what what it could mean for everyone, what's actually real or what's definitely gonna be real. But uh yeah, it's a very, very exciting uh kind of development generally, I think. All right. Okay, so do we have a d a guest today?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

We do, we do, and I'm really excited to have uh Danny Robbins on the show today. She's a certified prosthetist and orthopedist. But uh, one of the things that's very interesting is that she does it mostly for pets, or actually all for pets right now, uh, it appears. And uh, or it might be a side hustle. We'll we're gonna find we're gonna find uh out some of that stuff. But uh she is also active on LinkedIn with these uh furry friends, uh, and it looks like big dogs, little dogs, pretty much anything that you need in the vet space, she has experience with. So I'm really excited to dive into that, what her journey was, and then uh maybe we can talk about some uh fabrication towards the end. Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

So welcome to the show, Danny. So tell us how did you get involved with OMP?

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Hi, uh well, thanks for having me. O and P kind of fell into my lap. I was originally planning on going to physical therapy school and was doing my thousands of hours of shadowing for that. And it was in the last, I kid you not, maybe 10 hours of the thousand hours I had to shadow that I saw a prosthetist in the PT clinic. I was like, oh my gosh, what is that? Like that is so cool. They're on their hands and knees, their scrub knees are torn up because they're just on the floor and fiddling with the alignment. I'm like, I like that. Um, so I I fell into it like that and immediately started applying to O and P schools. My dad is a doctor, my mom is a sculptor. So I'm like, this is awesome. Like, this is the best of two worlds over here. Um, and I I really enjoyed it. You know, my heart's always been in the place of helping people and trying to make their lives better. You know, growing up with a special needs brother, it's kind of a real soft spot for me. You know, the the animal thing was just such a small butterfly effect. I guess it was a big butterfly effect, but my dog hurt her knees a few years ago, probably five, six years ago now. And I was like, oh my god, there's all of the other species. Like all of the other species are not humans. Like, who's helping those ones? And that's kind of how I fell into this. I've had a very interesting journey. And until recently, I was working with both animals and humans, but now it's just animals, and I think that's a blessing because it makes me happy and there's not a lot of people that do it. And it's, you know, I get a lot of people reach out to me um on LinkedIn and otherwise, a lot of CPOs saying, How did you do that? Like, how did you get out of humans or at least add animals to your practice? And um, the truth is it's luck and a lot of uh vindiction in that because it's a it's a very interesting small field.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

So so is that uh I mean give us an idea. Well, first of all, is is it your passion? You were just like, Oh my god, I can help pass this what drove this for you, or or Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Um, so I like I said, I never thought about doing it for animals. Like in my head, it was just, you know, you make braces and prosthetics for humans, and that's what it is. But I grew up as an equestrian, I've always been an animal lover, and then my own personal dog got hurt and I was like, I don't like I can't afford this$10,000 surgery. She's a hundred-pound dog. I can't carry her upstairs for six weeks if she has a surgery, you know. Like, I have to do something. Come to find out that's the bread and butter of animal ONP is doing knee braces for dogs. It's called a stifle. Um, and their ACL injuries are the main thing, you know. In the beginning, when I started doing this, it was about 80% stifle bracing. And since then it's branched out to crazy prosthetic cases and congenital cases and cows and goats and uh horses and you know, really anything with more than two legs. It's pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Okay, cool, cool. So no kangaroos. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I um I reached out, one reached out. Yeah, I was like, this is impossible though. I can't make you like a springy, a springy like right kangaroo, but wouldn't it be like one of those carbon fiber ones?

SPEAKER_03 8:02

That'd be great. That'd be dangerous, I think.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Kind of, but it's I know, I know. I thought about it, but they stand at like 90 degrees on their ankle, so it's like, how are you gonna make that? Um, so yeah, there's a lot of imagination, a lot of practicality that goes into it. Unfortunately, it's like you're gonna be the highest bouncing kangaroo in the world.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Unfortunately, no.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

And and and talk to us about like you said the field was small. Do you have any idea how many people are doing this? Or is there like do you have any idea if it's like is it's it's literally a niche within a niche, or do you have any idea at all?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

It's a very niche and a niche. Um, this is very much a guess, but I would say full-time people doing it, I would say one to two dozen in the US.

unknown 8:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, it's it's very small. And people doing it full-time is usually even less unless they're running their own companies or teaching in like veterinary hospitals, you know, somehow became lucky enough to become one of those people, but it's it's very small. And most of the people within that, you know, started as prosthetists and or like veterinary technicians, so they were around animals, but the main niche that this falls in is veterinary rehab. So if you imagine in the human landscape, if physical therapists were responsible for doing everything and process orthodists were just on the other side of the phone, that's what a lot of this is. So it's uh it's a very different dynamic.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

And and and um to get into this, did you need to do courses? Because it could be like if you're a veterinarian, do you do this on the side? Do they do this on the side normally? Uh how's it normally work?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

That's a good question. And um, the answer is there needs to be a better way for it. But what is currently done is in some of these higher level veterinary rehab programs specifically, not necessarily even like surgeons or orthopedics. Usually in the rehab courses that these veterinarians take, they might get a couple days, if they're lucky, about training for O and P. So just like very much a crash course. Like this is a ground reaction force, this is, you know, a brace versus a prosthesis. And the ones that know more are usually from years and years of experience. And some of these manufacturers, you know, would have in-person classes where these veterinarians would fly in, take, you know, condensed two or three-day class, and then pretty much they'd say, good luck, you're on your own, and we're kind of here if you need us. There's no, to date right now, there's no actual certification for it, which is a little bit scary, both on the human side and the veterinary side. Like there's nothing at this time where you can take it and you're like, you are certified veterinary ONP, which leads to a lot of um a lot of poor outcomes, both from the manufacturing side and the ONP side, because it's it's extremely different. Like, you know, you could be a wonderful human, that's what I call it, a human orthodox prosthetus, um, and be clueless in animals because it's so different. So part of what I'm working on, and you know, it it's probably gonna be the end of the year, but I am working on some sort of certification because I have so many people reach out to me just to give them the basics of animal ONP, because otherwise it's about impossible to get into.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

So that's a good idea to have a baseline, yeah. Some kind of baseline. And if we're talking about like, okay, first off, it's it seems to be you're very much like the companion animals, furry animals in the home, kind of like the cute pets is like really mainly the group, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

That the the you that comes to Yeah, that would definitely be the main group. Like I said, there's an occasional cow or horse or goats or sheep or like bulls, but like the people that want to spend the money on that are few and far between, and the people that have those animals are much fewer and far between. So, you know, there's there's a lot more dogs out there that need like basic orthopedic surgeries and devices than there are kangaroos or monkeys or um sea turtles, stuff like that. Like there's there's a lot you can do, but just volume-wise, yeah, it is absolutely probably 95% dogs, even you know, I've I've done more cows than I had cats.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Okay, that's kind of crazy. That that explain that because there's a lot of cats as pets, right? So explain that to me.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah, there's a lot of cats as pets. But the thing with cats is um, you know, their their attitude, like even the sweetness. No, no, no, I didn't say it. Um but a cat, you know, you could do a perfect device for, and they're just like, How dare you put this on me? Like, I I don't like you, like how dare you, owner, for trying to help me. So the acceptance for cats tends to be lower, and they're so much more reliant on their like their paws and their claws than having anything enclosed on those. Like they don't like that, and they tend to do better. Like, if they have to, they tend to do better on three legs than dogs do. So, really, just like the audacity of the practitioner trying to help them is the reason we don't really do cats too much.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Okay, sounds very cat-like, yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah, very much.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Sounds perfect.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yoris, we're gonna lose more listeners over this cat stuff than than any other uh cats are amazing.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Cats are awesome, wonderful. We should do more to do more cats acceptance with cats.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

I agree. Inclusion.

Orthotics Versus Prosthetics For Pets

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Um, anyway, and then one thing, and then one thing that really intrigues me is if you see there's seems to be two, well, the uh the main problem seems to be like kind of a leg missing kind of thing. Is that like a cancer accident? What what are the causes for for for for these animals coming to you in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

I would say probably 25% of the animals I see are for prosthetic cases. And we'll get into why those are a little more difficult, other than it being a prosthesis later. But most of the like orthotic device reasons are torn ligaments or in lieu of like fusion surgeries. Uh so when you go in to do like a carpass or wrist fusion, like there are there are a whole bunch of tiny little bones there, they're in external fixators, you know, they're hairy, you can't tell them what to do, you can't tell them not to lake. So a lot of times, like other than the cost, like a brace is just um a more realistic version, especially if they're attending like a rehab with you know a trained veterinarian, like they'll learn to walk properly. Like if it's an Achilles thing and they've had a partial tear, like they can have PRP and shockwave and you see devices like slowly dynamize over time instead of you know going in for that$10,000 surgery that probably will fail if they're not doing proper aftercare. So on the orthotic side, it's more can we avoid surgery? Like, is it a good idea to, you know, some animals can't have surgery, it's expensive, they can be older, variety of reasons. So that's kind of where it started, orthotic wise for the animals, and then prosthetic-wise, it's very, it's very interesting for me of being a namely like a human O and P practitioner. For animals, the standard is if something's wrong with the leg, cut the whole leg off, you know, is is wild to me. Imagine being a human and your big toe needs to go, and then they're like, no, we're just gonna take a whole leg. That's kind of been the standard in veterinary O and P and it's starting to change, but you know, it starts with more education on the veterin because, like I said, most of them aren't taught really anything about it, and it's not their fault, it's just the way that the system is right now. But the prosthetic cases I get are usually from a handful of surgeons or rehab veterinarians, kind of like a specialist community that come together and talk about where this amputation should take place on the limb so that we have enough to do a partial limb prosthesis. So when I get to do that, it's usually a big kind of collaboration, or it was a congenital case, which I'd say of the prosthetics currently, that's probably about half of them. But yeah, the prosthetics are very fun, but you gotta think about it with animals. Like, not only are they the like widest variety of sizes and conformations of any species, you know, there's so many veterinarians that are working on them that it's hard to get this idea in everybody's head to make that work. But there's also there's nothing to keep these things on, like they don't wear shoes. Like, how do you keep something on a dog? And that's part of where it gets difficult. So for prosthetics, there are certain limitations of what we can do. And like if they're not gonna fit in that category, like I will tell the vet, go ahead, just take the whole thing. But it works, it works really well when we get to do that.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

And I have some the crazy idea, but I just thought of this. Uh, for the there's this thing called bittering agents, there's one called bit treks, bike treks or something. And you put it on stuff, they put it sometimes on like uh cleaning things, other things where they want kids to not put it in their mouths, and it's it tastes horrible. This idea, so the kid doesn't eat it. Uh, can you put that on the prosthetics to keep the dog from licking it or the wound or the area or yeah, they it's a crazy idea.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

They make a few things. There's one that I like to recommend called a sour apple bitter bitter spray. Um, and it's essentially the same thing, but I think that you might underestimate the desire for the dogs to do this sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah, they they don't understand. That's the thing. It's not like, hey, this is gonna usually once they figure out, hey, this thing helps me, I'm not gonna eat it. Uh, you know, this is a very expensive chew toy, but until that point, yeah, you definitely have to keep an eye on it. There is a break-in period for all these things, it's not something they wear overnight usually, but yeah, it's in my contract that if your dog choose it, I'm very sorry you have a very expensive chew toy.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

You know, it's not something that I choose to do. Yeah, that's a good yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

And uh and another thing is okay, I see this. I see sometimes I see like leg type based perception, and other times I see like kind of wheels. Does that work? Is that a good idea? It seems quite practical. I see I've seen dogs like walk quite quickly with these kind of like little wheel things in the background.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, like a like a wheelchair, like a cart.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Yeah, exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, yeah. And those are fantastic. I um when I was with my previous business, we were doing those as well. Like we were working with a company called If anyone ever needs it, Eddie's Wheels is fantastic. They make custom wheelchairs for dogs, they do front and back wheels. And I would use this a lot for, you know, you get your long spin breeds or those that have had accidents and are paralyzed in the hind end, or you know, have super bad hips or super bad knees. Like, you can use those. I've used them for dogs that have like no front legs, no back legs. So the wheels definitely come in handy, especially when there's not enough limb or control to use like an orthotic or prosthetic device.

Remote Vet Support And Industry Shakeups

SPEAKER_03 17:48

And given that there's so many few people practic uh practicing this, like, first of all, do they do people all like do people come from all over the country to visit you? Is that how that works?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Or very interesting kind of place in this niche. So I started out out of my car and I'm I'm in the Tampa area. So, you know, I drive all around here, St. Petersburg, all the way out to Orlando or so. So about a two-hour radius when I was starting, just telling vets, like, hi, like I know that you might need the service, but you're probably, you know, in a nice one, but you're probably not trained in this. I am like, if you have something, let me know, and I will come in and take care of it for you. So for the first probably year and a half of my animal journey, it was just me traveling around kind of as an on-call basis. I then had a company called Orthopause that I started that I recently left. And the idea with Orthopause is okay, cool, now we have a storefront, people are gonna come to us. And something big happened inside of the veterinary O and P market, one of the biggest, like pretty much the founding company of veterinary O and P called Orthopets, closed down pretty much with no warning. People's devices were in the middle of that, and that created a really big opportunity because Orthopets is one manufacturer there in Colorado. They were fantastic, and they had almost like a cult-like following. So when they closed, everyone's like, oh, like, oh my God, like what who do I go to? What do I do? Um, and my name came up. So a lot of what I do now, I'd say 10% of what I do is actually in person. The other 90% has turned into virtual consulting and guiding the vets through this. So I'll be there to help them do the evaluation, to help them do the casting, like through the computer. They're having a fit problem. Okay, try X, Y, and Z. So I'm it's a very, it's a very awesome job because I work with vets in Australia and Canada and the UK. And, you know, of course it gets a little harder if they need a modification if they're not trained in that, but you know, I can guide them through simple heat flares. But I think just I call myself like a veterinary orthodist on demand. Like that's kind of been my my selling point for these veterinarians because the non-local ones, like I said, since there's so little training in this, they would get a device and just kind of be expected to figure it out on their own. And that's about impossible. Even like that's about impossible without any formal training. And even with the training, like animals are hard.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

So um, and then normally we're looking at cash and plaster and and and scanning. That also seems like it's not great with like a furry creature, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:09

It's harder. Fiberglass is the way to go, but you're gonna be using either a cotton stock and net over the limb and or some press and seal. So people always love when you put press and seal over their dog. Like that's always fun. So I'll take a fiberglass impress it with press and seal, cut strip, and then I'll take a 3D scan of that and have it digitally modified and made that way.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

So can you get those people overseas to do that, or does that not work? You can't get information back from them really on that level.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

I actually I just use comb O and P and some of my international clients, I'll just have them download comb, even if it's just you know a 10-day trial, and if they like it, they can buy it, and then they can just scan it into me. That'll save them a couple weeks of shipping and a couple hundred bucks. So that that is an option for them. Most of my clients just send me the cast and then I will do everything, but that that is an option for them because ultimately it ends up being digitally modified and carved out and then made more traditionally after that. But that's been a way to integrate.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

I think this is an interesting approach because we we're in the the I don't know what we call it, the the human OMP world, right? We don't really see this kind of fabrication with a contact thing that much. And it looks like it's a really uh gratifying niche. And and imagine doing something in the regular OMP world where you would just interface with certain people, like not just doing fabrication, but doing more fabrication consulting for very specific cases. That seems like it could be something that could be uh a very interesting people uh thing for certain people to really specialize in if they're uh uh in really specific stuff, if if that uh um you know in in the rest of the world as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it. I mean, I I prefer working with animals to humans. Um, you know, so getting to have the veterinarians do that and just, you know, I there are people out there that know more than I do. Like I've been doing this five or six years with the animals, like there are people that have been doing it for 20 years, but what we know is different. I mean, there's a time and a place where every Thing so I I've seen quite a lot, and you know, for things that I don't know, I have some great advisors that I can speak to, but it's definitely nice to be not quite a liaison, but like a consultant, like you said. This is all I do now. So any weird dog, cat, goat, cow, horse stuff, you know, I'm sure something else will come about. But yeah, very much the consulting side. Um, when I was younger in the OMP field, I thought it'd be really interesting to do this for you know, like human physical therapists, like help them if they wanted to do an AFO. This is what you should do. Let's consider this type. Do these kind of range of motion tests. I never thought I'd fall into that in the veterinary world, but here we are.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

And and and and then nothing is the the if we if you look at this, uh well that okay, one thing that still intrigues me is this this big company, all of a sudden the leader of the field, also out of nowhere went out of business. That doesn't look like you know, there's a great solid financial underpinning for this, right? Or is is it is it is it too niche to really be very profitable, or is it just too niche for there to be a lot of suppliers, or was that just a you know, it could have been an event as well related to that company.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

For this company, like I said, it was called Orthopets. It was owned by Dossier, um, who does the woodcast materials? I think they just partnered with OCER to do some like some different casting systems in the hospitals, but that main company went bankrupt. And orthopets was just um, you know, a consequence of that. There are very few companies that do this, and the ones that do it usually do all their own fabrication, like it's their main focus or bread and butter. Actually, that's not true. I'd say probably half the company is doing this. It's their only thing, their main bread and butter. A lot of them work out of like human O and P labs. And then a lot of people in the field are, you know, humans three days a week, animals two days a week, pay for your own supplies user lab. Like there aren't too many standalone things. And the people that ask me, like the CPOs that ask me, like, I would love to do animals, how do I do it? I say you have to get very lucky if you want to do it full-time. You know, it's it's a great side gig at the very least for human-owned peace that want to get into it. But to do it full-time, you know, you really got to find your niche. You got to be in academia or working directly with a fabrication company or running the fabrication design of that. So, you know, anyone wanting to do it full-time, let me know how you figure it out because I fell into it.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

And and if you're looking at this kind of like in a well, uh, you know, a large part of this seems to be like marketing, right? Or or was that also just luck? Or are you really like saying, because uh yeah, people from all the world find you, that's nice, could happen as a coincidence. It's not going to keep happening as a coincidence, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:31

So there I've done about this in a couple different ways, and what's really stuck is kind of luck, but once you get your foot into the inner circle, the the people that do veterinary OMP, like the CPOs, is a very small group. The group that the veterinarians that do this is also fairly small. Like they they are specialists within the veterinary field, and the ones that do bracing are like even more specialists within that specialist field. There's most of what's happened for me has just been word of mouth. And that's been really nice. But I I figured out fairly early on, like what was missing in the field. And it's not so much like there's no good devices out there, it's that no one can explain to them what they're doing. Exopets, my company focuses, you know, of course, on good designs and getting products at work and all of that stuff. But the main thing that I really, really kind of focus on is making sure the veterinarians understand what they're doing so they're not deers in a headlight when something doesn't work. And the pet parents staring at them, like, why did I just spend$2,000 on this? And they're like, I have no idea. Like, I make sure to never put them in that situation. So I think that's gone really far with the veterinarians. 90% of my business has just been, oh, I work with Danny. Just here's here's her website, which is really nice because I am 100% a clinician at heart. Like, I I don't know how to do professional marketing. I don't know how to do any of that, nor do I really have the budget to do that. So um I've just gone through word of mouth, doing a good job, taking the time. And since I work with people all across the world, like I don't really have any, like I'm always on call, essentially. Like if someone needs to call me at 6 p.m. and they're in Oregon and I'm in Florida, like I will answer the phone at nine o'clock at night just to make sure. Because, like I said, if I'm not there to help them, they might as well go with someone else. So that's been how I've grown in the field. Um, you know, consistency is one thing, making sure people are familiar with things in an unfamiliar field, that's that's been the way to go, which is really nice because that's all I know how to do. So it worked.

The Knowledge Gap And Certification Push

SPEAKER_02 26:30

So is it true though, in in the in the O and P, especially in this bracing side of things? And and what you said about orthopeds was super interesting. Like I I just Googled it and I was like, wow, okay, yeah. So I mean it it did leave a lot of people in uh uh in alert.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

So and we'll have to have some offline stories about that because that's it's really, really interesting. But you know, uh with do you find that it's uh like your people when you say, you know, people that you if you're either stumped or you have a question that you call, do you find that that's a regional? Is it across the country? Because what I have heard, and because we 3D print stuff for multiple people, is that there's not necessarily a lot of sharing of knowledge within this. Is that a fair statement?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Understatement. Yeah, it is it is a very guarded field. And I think part of it is, you know, there's a quote unquote like smaller market because it's not as common. Going through your quarter million dollar master's program, you get, if you're lucky, half a day on animals. Like there's not there's not a whole lot that you can learn. So I got very lucky. I was trained by the original founder of Orthopets prior to going out of business. Like I got to go do hands-on training with them and cast dogs and you know, kind of a crash course, and I still maintain a good relationship with him. But that's the only way that I was able to even feel comfortable saying that I do this without feeling like a fraud. You know, so my goal now, the landscape has changed a little bit. Like I said, after orthopets close, there's there's different ways to access fabrication, but the guarding of knowledge is, you know, one of the main barriers because this isn't really, to my knowledge, you know, not really taught in schools as its own subject. You know, veterinarians get a day or two, and the companies don't want to share their knowledge because it's their bread and butter. You know, once once you know things, you can make things. You're using the same tools, you're using, you know, PolyPro, Co-Poly, Aliplast, Velcro. You know, there's there's nothing inherently incredible about the animal manufacturing other than understanding how completely different it is. Because if you imagine, like, I I tell my veterinarians all the time, because they sometimes get a little upset, not upset, but frustrated that they don't quite understand. I'm like, dude, like, do not worry about it because humans are straight up and down. Like when we are analyzing human forces, like we're we're toothpicks. Like, have you seen a German Shepherd? Like, they're sending it 90 degrees, 60 degrees. Like, it's crazy ground reaction forces. So, how do you teach that to someone when they're in a master's program trying to learn about, you know, bipedal locomotion? We're like, oh, we're just gonna double that and change everything. So it really, like, in order for it to become mainstream and to not have the guardian of knowledge, the own Peace Schools would really need to have like at least a six-week course for people to feel confident going through this because all the rehab modalities are different too. So, like I said, I'm trying to make some sort of certification or just knowledge based to get people to get their foot in the door. Because I think, you know, I'm a business person to some extent, but also like the whole point of this is for the animals. Like, I I think the animals deserve the same kind of care as humans, and that requires people that know what they're doing. So, yeah, there's like you said, there's a very big and very it's not a secret, like a very big barrier of knowledge because once you know what to do, what's to stop you from making your own brand? And that's just not a good business move. So, you know, right. There's a in-between somewhere that hasn't really been explored.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I mean, and I think yours and I kind of follow that too, is competition is a good thing because it rises and brings awareness around for this this field and it also helps differentiate you from somebody else that may be doing it. So I I think that's an interesting way to put it. I love the idea of a certification for that. I'd I'd love to dive in. So you you mentioned you are less, would you say that are you on the fabrication side of making the braces that you're also in on on the consulting side of things, or are you helping them be able to make that internally? How does that usually work?

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Good question. So I very much serve as like a traditional CPO with an outsourced device. So everything I'm doing is just say, hey lab, this is what's going on. Do X, Y, and Z, please. Vet this is why we did this, this is how you do it. I personally am not doing the fabrication, like that. That is out of my scope. I'm partnered with some really fantastic people. And any case that comes in, I'm pretty much just handing them, you know, just saying, this is what we're doing. Like you work your magic. Like if something's not right, then I'll help them figure it out. But I I'm almost the liaison in a fancy sense of just saying, you know, we're taking this thing that's not brand new. We've got these designs that have been like tried and proven, like, let's not reinvent the wheel, but let's, you know, add some higher end like touches and customizations to these.

Where 3D Printing Helps Or Fails

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Okay. Very cool. Very cool. What what role do you think? Uh this is usually yours as a question. I'm surprised I didn't jump in here. Uh, what role do you think uh the additive manufacturing or 3D printing plays into product design and maybe some stuff that is not necessarily your you're able to do with traditional fabrication, but you are so it may, you know, open up other designs, other ideas, things that weren't possible before. What what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Well, I am not the most educated person on this, but from what I understand and my bit of research on it, I think it's gonna be great for several parts of this, not for all of it. Excuse me. Um the the thing is, and you guys tell me because you know, the additive manufacturing is not like I know very little about that. I know that it happens. I've seen some of your LinkedIn stuff. Like it's you know, that's about the extent of my exposure to that. I think that additive manufacturing could be really great for devices that are not contacting the ground, like knee bracing and elbow braces, um, and maybe parts and pieces, like printing like a flexible inner liner for something would be great. And then even for wrists, it might be great. The carpets, the wrist, and the front legs might be great. But when you get to the hind legs and you get to the ankle, there is so much torque on that that I don't know of any material could withstand that. There's so much. So, like we're often 90 degrees off of like the ground reaction force factor at the ankle for a normal for a normal ankle. And you have to be able to change the pause segment. And these are dogs. So again, I don't know about the materials that you can use, but there's one company out there called Wimba that, you know, their kind of claim to fame is they 3D print things and their devices are pretty cool looking. But the problem is like they're using some nylon material that's super strong, but it gets wet and then it's gross, you know. It's dog hair and it's slobbers and it's rough on them. So I think that there's definitely a way to integrate it. Are we there yet? I'm not quite sure. With me, absolutely not yet. Um, and I would love to pick you guys' brain about it sometime. But I I think down the line it could be used, if not for the full devices, at least for components of it, or for like more temporary solutions. You know, they'll get out of surgery and they'll be in veterinarians use different kinds of splinting systems, not so much a splint, but you know, they'll put a leg-shaped piece of plastic and wrap it up with vet wrap and some foam and just like use that as their post-op, you know, immobilization. I think that that could be replaced with a 3D printed device. You know, here's a cast of the leg. Let me just 3D print this really simple thing real quick and use that instead of like a full, you know, a full orthosis with dynamic motion and tamaracks and all that. I think that for me in the future, that would probably be the next, the next integration of that. As far as full braces, like that's gonna be a lot of trial and error, just like I said, because dogs are so dynamic and messy. Like if they gain muscle, I need to be able to change it. And usually I'm not the one there. It's a veterinarians, you know, things that are a little bit more accommodative tend to be easier for everyone. I guess that's something you all have to tell me about.

How To Start In Animal O And P

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Yeah, well, we will definitely uh share with you more offline. But yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the interesting things, just like what you said, the education around like the veterinarian side of things and just making sure that people stay safe. I would say yours and I feel very strongly in the similar sense that uh, you know, if 3D printing is not your thing, you find somebody that does 3D printing and help it become your thing. And so I think that there's a lot of lack of education around the uh the 3D printing, but we also know that there are serial private equity and VC guys, and for whatever reason, they get all the money and then they get all the press and they create these products that aren't that great and doing exactly the things that what you're you're saying. And so, and that hurts the industry as a whole. I'm sure that you've had some pet braces and that have people have wounds and all that stuff, and it's like, well, where did you actually have this done? And it's like, oh my goodness, yeah. I mean, same thing in the 3D printing world is I I can't believe they're actually selling that as a solution or or you know, something to along those lines, or you know, why would you use those materials? And that's where it's it becomes really important. So, but yeah, happy to uh dive in the weeds there. Well, we're almost at uh time, but I was just wondering from your perspective if somebody was interesting. Like we're always trying to leave somebody with a little bit of a nugget of wisdom. So if somebody's interested in the in the prosthetic and orthotic realm in the pet space, where would be a good place to start on their personal development? I mean, you've already mentioned, hey, you've got to know some people, get involved. But um, if somebody was like, hey, this is the direction I want to go, and I I need to do you know this for the next couple of weeks to really study how animals move or something like that. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah, that's a great question. That's a very good, tough question. I mean, for right now, I think talking to someone that's doing it currently is the best way to get your foot in the door. I mean, you can always buy textbooks and look at the anatomy differences and understand the best first step. Like, if, you know, I I would always say it's like feel free to reach out to me. Like, I I would like to help people learn and like, you know, we could make it work in some way, shape, or form. And I'll have a course out eventually. But for right now, like if you're interested in it, try to find a rehab veterinarian in your area. And it's hard because it's it's few and far between, you know, veterinarians that are busy doing this may be due to a month. And there's not a whole lot of veterinarians that do it. So, but I would search around your area or ask me, like, is there anyone near me that is doing this? And I would just shadow a couple, kind of see what they're doing. You'll kind of pick up on where the blind spots are, and then that can help guide your study. Uh, because you know, working with four legs versus two legs is not just twice as many legs, it's completely different. So, watching someone that's doing it currently, kind of filling in the gaps, and then a good way to be integrated into the field might be hey, I feel confident enough to do this casting. Do you want me to take it over for you in terms of working with the veterinarians? So fabrication is a separate part of that, but getting into the integrative, you know, deciding this is an orthotic candidate or this is a prosthetic candidate, this is how we do the cast molding, this is how the range of motion limitations work. Like that would be my best suggestion is to look at case studies online and try to find, you know, it's usually like a very specialized veterinarian or sports medicine veterinarian that's doing this, but there's at least a couple in every state you might have to make a drive, and it may be four hours one way to see a 30-minute case, and that's just kind of what it is. So getting exposure to that is just gonna be through case studies and veterinarians at this point.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

So, but a bit I think the biggest takeaway is humans are different than dogs, yeah, or animals, and it's important to know that and don't outkick your coverage. And there are people out there that are willing to help. So I think that's absolutely I think that's great.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

All right, all right, thank you so much for being here, Brent, and thank you so much for being here, Danny today.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

And thank you for listening to another episode of the prosthetics and authorities podcast. Have a great day.