1. Description
This week, we look at the death penalty—our views on it, execution methods, and botched executions. Which execution method is the most botched? Which one is the most effective? Also, what would be our preferred execution method, and what would we choose for our last meal?
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6. Credits
1. Description
This week, we look at the death penalty—our views on it, execution methods, and botched executions. Which execution method is the most botched? Which one is the most effective? Also, what would be our preferred execution method, and what would we choose for our last meal?
2. Topics
3. Additional Resources
4. Merchandise/Support the Show
5. Contact Us/Follow Us/Rate/Subscribe
New episodes every week!
Listen, rate, follow, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts!
Follow us:
6. Credits
This week decapitations, strangulations, and defecation. Welcome to Subpar Talks. Hey everybody. Welcome to Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff.
Chris:And I'm Chris.
Jeff:Thank you so much for joining us for another episode. Before we get to our topic this week, we've got our standard disclaimer, listen to discretion advised. We will occasionally or possibly frequently use profane language, and we will discuss some mature subject matters, hot button issues, touchy subjects, and we're gonna inject humor into all of that. So if that doesn't set well with you, that's OK. That's not for everybody. So we just wanted to put that warning out there before we get rolling. For those of you who are sticking around because you like that kind of stuff, you are our kind of people. And here we go. This week's topic is the death penalty. We'll talk about execution methods and botched executions. So it's kinda like a, we have a big buffet of death for this week. Is that a good way to put it?
Chris:That's a good way to put it.
Jeff:We're like the Golden Corral of, of death. OK. So, um, yeah, speaking of touchy subjects, this is one, uh, controversial issues, whatever. I find the death penalty, a fascinating topic for so many different reasons, and really from a lot of different perspectives. It is, um, it's one of those issues that tends to get people riled up and people like talking about it. And Chris and I, of course like talking about it and we're gonna find some interesting stuff in, in, um, this week's episode. And I'm sure this is not the last time we will revisit anything surrounding the death penalty, cuz there's a lot there specific cases and all of that. So anyway, I figured we would first give our views on the death penalty. I mean, people are always gonna have opinions on this kind of stuff. So I figured we'd give our views. Is that a good, good way to do it?
Chris:Sure. Just jump right in.
Jeff:All right. Yeah, let's jump right in and give our opinions on this. Look, I'm not trying to sway anybody's opinion on this. I'm giving my opinion. This is one person's opinion on this. I am against it. And I do realize that puts me in the minority of Americans. In fact, I just checked a poll. There was a poll that came out from, uh, Pew Research in June of 2022, so June of this year, and it's about 60% to 40%, support for and opposition to. So that's what it is. And if you look at trends, support for the death penalty has been coming down recently, but I think it's been holding steady for the past few years, but that's about what it is. So my point there is I am in the minority. And...
Chris:Do you know of those percentages, if they are kind of mirrored with the, uh, political affiliations that tend to agree or disagree there?
Jeff:There's a really strong correlation. Uh, Republicans are much more likely to support it. Democrats are much more likely to be against it. And let me just lay out, uh, and I, you don't have to do this Chris, but uh, just lay out basically why I'm against it. And there might be more reasons than, than I can think of just talking about this, but these are the ones that come to my mind. One is just a basic power of government issue. Like I don't think people in positions of power in the government should be given the power to kill citizens, absent some immediate threat of death. Like I don't think people in, in government positions should be given that power. That's more of an ideological argument for that one. And, and I gotta say many of the same people talking about who supports it and who doesn't, many of the same people who say they don't trust government to do anything, like they always complain, oh, it's the government doing this government doing that, they're perfectly willing to allow the government to carry out executions, which I don't, I don't, there there's an inconsistency there for sure.
Chris:But probably none of those people have ever faced it. They're OK when it's happening to someone else.
Jeff:Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You're right. Yeah. Someone else's problem. The fact that we have had a whole lot of people, and it's over a hundred, I don't remember the exact number, but we've had people exonerated who were on death row. So they were set to be executed and now turns out they didn't even do it. Just the law of averages with as many people have, as we have had exonerated, even for non-death-penalty crimes, you just gotta figure innocent people have been executed before. Just the law of averages says, yeah, that that's happened. There's a huge race discrepancy when it comes to administering death sentences. Study after study after study shows that if you killed a white victim, you are more likely to get the death penalty than if you killed a minority. In terms of the death row population. I had to look this one up, but 41% of the death row population is black and 42% is white. Now consider the fact that black people make up 13% of the overall population, yet they account for 41% of, of death row. Uh, and white people account for about 60, I think it's like 61, 62% of the population and, and they account for 42%. Uh, another one, and this is, this one has, is what has allowed some Republicans to say, no, we need to go a different route, but it's the expense of the death penalty. It actually costs more to conduct a capital murder trial and handle all the appeals that come with a death sentence than it does to put somebody in prison for 40 years.
Chris:Really?
Jeff:It is, yeah, it is super expensive because you have to have a bigger jury pool. Um, you've gotta have expert witnesses on both sides. And the Supreme Court has said time and time again, death is different. Death is a different punishment than any other type of punishment. Because if somebody gets locked up for something they didn't do, and then they get out later, well, that's a tragedy. They were locked up for something that, that they had no business being locked up for, yet they still get out. They've still got their life. But if you execute somebody who didn't do the crime that they were executed for, well, obviously you can't go back on that, right? Like, that's it. So you have to make sure that they have certain built-in appeals, that they get every opportunity to appeal their death sentence. And then finally, I'll say this, and then I can turn it over to you and you can give your, your views on this. But a lot of times, proponents of the death penalty say it's a deterrent, right? Like, if people see that, oh, you can get executed for committing premeditated murder, then you'll be less likely to commit premeditated murder. Well, the evidence shows that's not the case at all. And a big factor in that evidence is the fact that death penalty states, so states that do still have the death penalty, they have a higher murder rate on average than the states that don't have the death penalty. So you would think, if it's a deterrent, that's gonna bring your murder rate down because who wants to be executed. But that's obviously not the case. So anyway, that's my opinion. That's one person's opinion. Again, I'm not trying to persuade anybody, but I thought it was a good idea to give my, my views on that. So there you go.
Chris:So just for listener background, You and I definitely grew up in some different ideologies where it comes to political affiliations. And given that I will say in my younger life and into my younger adult life, I was, I would say a supporter of the death penalty. To go so far as to say a true, I don't know, proponent, true. you know, in favor of, might be a little strong, but I could support it. I have definitely noticed a real change in my opinions as I've gotten older. I don't think it's quite as much for some of the same reasons that you said. Some of it is absolutely. I, you know, I didn't, I certainly didn't used to think about the, the discrepancies in race, for example. I didn't used to consider whether the people who were being executed may not actually be guilty. You know, just kind of as, as you're, you're younger and have a little more black and white thinking, things like that and go, well, if you're convicted, you did it. And if you did it, and the death penalty is your sentence, then what's wrong with that. But when you start factoring in everything else and well, maybe you didn't actually do it, and you know, all kinds of things like that, then that absolutely changed my thinking. Another thing that really has impacted my thinking as well is I value time very much as I've gotten older. And in that time, I can't imagine what it must be like to be in prison and have that time and freedom taken away from you. You are still alive. You still have your mind and awareness and realizing what life was like for you outside of there and now what life is like for you inside of there. I can't imagine thinking that that is not a huge punishment to be in prison, just to have that, your literal freedom that we can take for granted every day, taken away from us. And given that, when I think about the death penalty, it almost seems like a, I mean, a get out of jail free card. It's a, it almost seems like a cop out. Like, oh well, all of this punishment that you may have been suffering in prison, you're getting out. Now, of course, you're dead. But I mean, OK, so there's that. But I mean, unless there's something we don't know about death, then you don't know that you're not alive. Right? So you're just gone. I mean, even, even in thinking of, you know, what, whatever spiritual beliefs you have, if there, you know, an afterlife or anything, but the point being you are not here, suffering that kind of punishment. And that has really changed my outlook on what I think about the death penalty, because I get, I totally get that if someone really close to you, for example, was, was killed. You know, they're murdered, whatever, in, in the, the most horrible way possible. And you, let's say even as a, like, there's no doubt about this one person is the one who did it. Could you feel that anger, hostility, everything that you would have to feel to go, I want that person dead too for what they did. Yes. I can totally understand that feeling. But as someone who hasn't experienced that I'm able to step back a little bit and go, but what I really want for that person is punishment. Like you took this from me. What's the most that I could have taken from you. It's your freedom. It's your time. And if I look at it from that standpoint, it really changes my view about the whole thing.
Jeff:Yeah. I just think about somebody, like if they're 20 years old and they get sent to prison for life without parole. I mean, I don't know what the life expectancy is in prison. It's gotta be lower than it is on the outside. But say they live to 70, they just spent 50 years.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:Locked up. That is a horrific punishment, so I can totally see your point that, yeah, that's, that's way worse just in terms of time that you gotta spend in there and think about it every day, how you can't be free. Yeah.
Chris:And that is if you only consider that it's their time and freedom that's taken away. Now that could be a whole other subject of what's the actual environment like in the prison. You've got the other prisoners and your...
Jeff:Oh yeah.
Chris:Cellmate, your furnishings, lack thereof, all of that stuff. It's not just even the, the time, but I, I just can't imagine what that would be like.
Jeff:Having to worry about getting a, a shiv in the ribs.
Chris:Exactly.
Jeff:Or who knows what, yeah.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:In the shower.
Chris:And don't drop the soap.
Jeff:Absolutely. So having said all that, how I'm against it, as I said before, I find this fascinating. And it, it's one of those things where you just kind of have to laugh about it and yes, we're gonna go through some botched executions. So let's get into that. So, botched executions. Thank God somebody defined it for us. There's a political scientist at Amhurst College in Massachusetts named Austin Sarat, and he wrote a book called Gruesome Spectacles: Botched Executions and America's Death Penalty, which sounds like some really cheery reading. Maybe you should read that to your kids before they go to bed.
Chris:Sure.
Jeff:But here's how he defines botched executions. He says:"Botched executions occur when there is a breakdown in, or departure from, the protocol for a particular method of execution. The protocol can be established by the norms, expectations, and advertised virtues of each method or by the government's officially adopted execution guidelines. Botched executions are those involving unanticipated problems or delays that caused, or at least arguably unnecessary agony for the prisoner or that reflect gross incompetence of the executioner. Examples of such problems include, among other things, inmates catching fire, while being electrocuted, being strangled during hangings instead of having their necks broken, and being administered the wrong dosages of specific drugs for lethal injections."
Chris:See, now that one I don't get.
Jeff:Well, OK. We'll get to that. But it is, yes. So he put that a lot more eloquently, I think, than I could. So a botched execution is where the executioner or somebody involved in the whole process fucks something up so something doesn't go right, and there's a problem.
Chris:Yeah, well whoever ever botched that up should just be executed too. I mean, like...
Jeff:I would think that would be a pretty good incentive to, to not screw it up. Right?
Chris:Yeah. You would think.
Jeff:So let's talk about some methods, along with botched executions, of course. So traditionally in America, like think from mid 1850s on, these are the methods in this country that have been used: hanging electrocution, the gas chamber, lethal injection, and the firing squad. Among those, what do you think has the highest rate of botched executions, according to our political scientist friend who wrote the Gruesome book, whatever it's called?
Chris:So since you mentioned that, I could see hangings being a problem. I could see electrocution being a problem.
Jeff:So, amazingly, lethal injection has the highest rate of botched executions.
Chris:And that just makes no sense, like load it up. I mean...
Jeff:Followed by the gas chamber. Next is hanging, electrocution, and then the firing squad is the least botched. So take that for what it's worth. But I can tell you in this country, the firing squad has been used way less than any of those other methods, but we'll get to that.
Chris:But is the most effective.
Jeff:Most effective? Yes. Without a doubt,
Chris:I want the most effective. If I'm gonna get killed, you better do it right.
Jeff:All right. So let's talk about these methods. I, again, there's so much here. I find a lot of this fascinating, and I think a lot of our listeners will too. And I think by this point, they're starting to get some of our humor here. And so... They call this gallows humor, right? Like there's an actual term for it, I think. But hanging, that's the first one I'll talk about. So let me talk about the methods and then we'll get to the botched cases where somebody messed something up. But hanging was first developed as a routine form of punishment all the way back in the Middle Ages. Now it existed before, but in the Middle Ages it became routine. Like you, you get a death sentence, that's how they're gonna kill you. So did you know, they're actually, well, I have, there might be more, but at least three different methods for hanging people.
Chris:No, I didn't.
Jeff:So one is called the short drop, which sounds like a dance move. He did the moon walk and then he just went seamlessly into the short drop. It was amazing. All right. So the short drop is where they would just, you would have the, the condemned prisoners stand on a stool, or whatever, and you just kick it out from under'em and then they just drop. Right? But the way that kills you is strangulation, and it takes anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes to actually die from that.
Chris:Oh my gosh. that's horrible.
Jeff:That's brutal. So in the late 1800s, they got science involved in this and they started doing the, what's called the standard method, to where they would drop everybody four to six feet, which if you drop somebody that far it's gonna snap their neck. And so death is a lot quicker that way. And then not too long after that, they started doing what's called the long drop, where they actually take into account the prisoner's height and weight. And there's a particular way you put the noose around the neck to where it's even more effective at breaking the neck. So...
Chris:See, that's really thoughtful.
Jeff:Isn't it?
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:All right. And then we have electrocution. The method of killing people by electrocution was developed in the 1880s. They attach electrodes to the head and the legs and the cause of death is actually cardiac arrest because it makes your heart go insane with all the, the voltage. The gas chamber. And I gotta say with all of these methods of execution, I think I knew less about the gas chamber than any of them, but the gas used in this is called hydrogen cyanide. So they, they, uh, strap the person in a chair in an airtight chamber and they have a bath of sulfuric acid below that chair. And through some device, I don't know exactly how it works, but they drop cyanide pellets into that sulfuric acid. And that's what causes the reaction for the gas, and you can see the gas, right? And they tell the prisoner to take several deep breaths, when they see the gas, take several deep breaths, because that will speed up unconsciousness. But studies show that people who get this often convulse, and drool, and they may also urinate, defecate, and vomit. For those of you at home who aren't up to date on scientific words like those, that means piss, shit, and puke. That's what we do. We take complicated stuff and we break it down so the everyday average person can get it.
Chris:That's just horrible.
Jeff:Isn't it? It is bad. That began as a method of execution in the US back in the 1920s. The last person to die by gas chamber in the US, wanna take a guess on the year?
Chris:I would've said a long time ago. It was probably like last year,
Jeff:In the grand scheme of things you're not too far off. It was in 1999 in Arizona. They actually killed somebody in the gas chamber. The last person killed in California, which was pretty notorious for its death, uh, for its gas chamber, was a guy named Robert Morris. And the only reason I'm bringing him up is because through my research here, I found his last meal. You ready for this? He got a 21 piece bucket of KFC, two large Domino's pizzas, a bag of jelly beans, a six pack of Pepsi, and a pack of Camel cigarettes. That was his last meal.
Chris:Talk about a Golden Corral. He just kinda did everything.
Jeff:He did.
Chris:So what defines a meal? Like Domino's pizza, isn't that a meal? And chicken? Isn't that a meal? It's like he got more than one meal there.
Jeff:Yeah, I know. I was wondering that too. And I do know recently in Texas, which executes more people than any other state by a long shot, Texas changed the rules about that. They still give the prisoner a last meal, but they have to take it from what the general prison population ate that day.
Chris:Oh, that's not cool.
Jeff:You can have as much of it as you want, but that's not near as exciting as this kind of stuff.
Chris:No.
Jeff:But look at all that shit he ate. He's not worried about his health, is he?
Chris:Well, I guess not, I mean, go ahead and pack the arteries.
Jeff:Right, who cares at that point? And then we have lethal injection. Lethal injection is done by three drugs. The first of which sedates the person, the second one is a paralytic, so it paralyzes them, and the third is the one that stops the heart. And in 1982, Texas, big surprise became the first state to use lethal injection. And that is now the most common method in the US. Oh, I forgot about firing squad.
Chris:That's really recent though. I didn't know that lethal injection was that recent.
Jeff:Yeah, I knew it was pretty recent. It turns out that it really wasn't developed as a way to execute people until the late 1970s.
Chris:Wow.
Jeff:OK, so the firing squad, there have only been four executions by firing squad in this country since 1960, and they've all been in Utah, which still retains the firing squad. The most recent was in 2010. So the way they do that is you have five people with a rifle. These are volunteers. These are people who said, yes, please let me shoot this person. So they volunteer to do it. They line up 15 to 20 feet away and the prisoner has a target placed over their heart and the people just, like they count down and then they fire. They all aim at that target. One rifle, did you know this, one rifle in a firing squad is loaded with blanks?
Chris:Is it just one? OK.
Jeff:Just one.
Chris:I knew that everybody didn't have it, but I didn't know, I didn't know how many people were shooting, and I didn't know how many people didn't have it. Yeah. But yeah, that's just so none of them know exactly who did it?
Jeff:I guess so they can sleep easier at night, maybe.
Chris:Well, I wouldn't think that's gonna be a problem if they volunteered to do it anyway, like...
Jeff:Right, why would they, yeah, why would they care? OK. Speaking of firing squad. Let's get into our botched executions and keep in mind, this is not an exhaustive list. But these are the ones that I found the most interesting. And, uh, I'm going in chronological order here. So this takes us back to 1879. This is a guy named Wallace Wilkerson, and he, uh, this was in Utah. He got into an argument over a card game in a saloon. And he just couldn't handle that. So he took out a gun and blew the guy away. So he gets, uh, arrested, convicted of murder and sentenced to death. And the way they did it back then was they put him in a chair in the corner of the prison yard. And they were all set to tie him down and he convinced the warden to not tie him down. He said, I'm gonna sit here. I'm not gonna move. I wanna look at my executioners in the eye. And the warden was like, well, they're gonna be concealed behind a shed. You're not gonna be able to see'em anyway. And he said, still, I wanna look that way. So don't put the blindfold or the, the thing over my face, right. So I, I, don't time me down and I'm just gonna look at'em. And, so they put the target on his heart, right, as I said before, and they count down and the guy goes ready, aim... And right before he said fire, the guy flinches. And so he moves. And so they all miss his heart. They hit him in the torso and they totally shattered one arm, like blew it off. And he jumped up from the chair and screamed"Oh my God, my God they've missed it." And it took him 27 minutes to die.
Chris:Oh, no.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Like they don't have other bullets they can load up?
Jeff:That's what I'm wondering. And I looked like, I act like I, I looked, why didn't they just kill him? Like, just shoot him in the head or something, like do something, he's dying. But no, they just let him that writhe on the, on the ground.
Chris:That's awful.
Jeff:Yeah. 27 minutes.
Chris:Think they oughta just have some extra bullets there.
Jeff:Yeah, just in case. So needless to say, now, when they do the firing squad, which is not that often, they tie'em down to the chair, they put the thing over their head and they tie'em in such a way to where they cannot move at all. Like, you are locked in place so that, that target is not gonna move. So...
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Live and learn, right?
Chris:I wouldn't want to hear the ready, aim part either. I would flinch too.
Jeff:Yeah. I don't blame the guy at all.
Chris:It'd be like, OK, I'm gonna get shot. I don't, I don't need to know when it's coming. Just do it.
Jeff:They might not even say anything anymore, but back then they did. It was either ready, aim, fire, or they counted down or something. Yeah. OK. Let's go to 1890, 1890. We're going to New York. There's a guy named William Kimmler. He was not a good person. I don't know what he did in the rest of his life, but in this particular instance, he murdered his girlfriend with a hatchet. That was enough to earn him a murder conviction and a death sentence. This execution is unique in that it was the first in this country to use the electric chair as a method of execution. And since we're talking about it in the context of botched executions, no, it did not go well. So they strapped him to the chair, put the electrodes on and all that. And he said, these are his last words,"Take it easy and do it properly. I'm in no hurry." I bet you're not.
Chris:No, uh, I don't have a good feeling about it.
Jeff:No, you are not in a hurry. You're hoping they could take all the time in the world they want. So they sent a thousand volts into, uh, William here. And they figured that would do it because they had electrocuted a horse the day before. Like, if it can kill this big beast, it won't be a problem on William, surely, right?
Chris:Big mistake.
Jeff:Big mistake. So they ran it for 17 seconds and they stopped it. And a doctor went up and determined that he was still breathing after 17 seconds. And so they ordered him to do it again. And this time they did 2000 volts. They cranked it up, and witnesses said there was, uh, the smell of burning flesh.
Chris:Oh, I guess so.
Jeff:Yeah. Some people said there was actual fire, but the New York Times who reported on this, didn't say that. But they said there was definitely the, the smell of like singed hair, uh, and burning flesh. Isn't it amazing. So this is 1890 that they're, they're executing somebody by electrocution. How long before that was, did they develop the ability to even conduct electricity? Like...
Chris:That's exactly what I was wondering because I wouldn't think it could have been very long before that.
Jeff:No.
Chris:I mean, the light bulb by Edison I think was just done in what, like the 1870s.
Jeff:I was thinking 1870s. Yeah. So in the 1870s...,
Chris:So we barely invented the light bulb, but now we're gonna start electrocuting people?
Jeff:Like, hey, look, we can conduct electricity and we can light up entire rooms. Isn't, isn't that great? And then they went from that to, hey, I bet we can kill a person with this. Amazing...
Chris:Or, or possibly.
Jeff:Right. We can try.
Chris:Well, and OK. So that's just the thing right there. They did a thousand volts. It didn't do it. Then they crank it to 2000 to really get the job done. Why don't you just start with 2000? Like...
Jeff:I don't know. Good question.
Chris:I mean, are we really that concerned with cost? Is this, you know, are we per kilowatt hour kinda thing?
Jeff:Yeah. Hey, I wonder if a prison's electric bill spikes up. Well, they don't do it anymore. But would their, would their electric bill, uh, go up when they had executions?
Chris:Probably.
Jeff:Something I never thought about. I guess, since they killed a horse the day before with a thousand volts, they figured they were good. Like, no problem.
Chris:I guess so. So that really makes you wonder what's the difference there?
Jeff:I wonder whose horse that was.
Chris:Maybe it was his. It's like, hey, we killed your horse yesterday.
Jeff:Insult to injury.
Chris:You know, hearing about a botched electrocution, that just always makes me think of The Green Mile when, um...
Jeff:Oh yeah, yeah.
Chris:He intentionally did that one wrong.
Jeff:Yes.
Chris:Supposed to dip the sponge in the water. He didn't. So it wasn't conducting it right, that he caught on fire.
Jeff:Yes, he did. Up until last year, I had not seen The Green Mile.
Chris:Really.
Jeff:Well, yeah. And that was, right there, that was the reaction I would get from people when I said I hadn't seen The Green Mile. They'd like kind of tilt their head like a dog does you know, like, huh? What? I actually read the book. Um, it's Stephen King and I couldn't get all the way through it. I got like, I don't know. Uh, I got, I probably had a hundred pages left and I just got tired of it. I can't really explain why, but I was just tired of it. So yeah. Then I watched the movie. I wanted to save that until after I read the book.
Chris:So did you like the movie?
Jeff:Uh, yeah, I thought it was OK. I don't
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:I don't think it was as great as everybody says it is, but you know, to each his own.
Chris:Yeah. It's not a favorite of mine, but I enjoyed it. It, and, and then they're obviously certain things about it that stand out.
Jeff:All right. Now we move up about a decade later to Tom Ketchum. Tom Ketchum was a train robber. And I don't remember if he had actually killed anybody or not. But back then states were executing people for even non-homicide crime. So that might have been his only offense, train robbery. But anyway, he was convicted, sentenced to death. And, uh, his last words were"Goodbye." That's appropriate."Goodbye. Please dig my grave very deep. All right, hurry up." That's what he said. So his method of execution was hanging. And remember that science I was talking about before, like taking into account for height and weight and all that?
Chris:Right.
Jeff:Evidently they had measured his weight on the way into prison, like when he first got arrested.
Chris:OK.
Jeff:They did not account for the fact that he gained a ton of weight while he was in prison.
Chris:Uh oh.
Jeff:Yeah. And so they strap the noose to him.
Chris:Well, that's gotta be kind of unusual, right? That you're gaining a lot of weight in prison?
Jeff:Yeah, usually people are gonna lose weight, but yeah, he, he gained weight. And this is the standard method of execution that I was talking about before. But they messed up his, um, the calculations on the, the weight, cuz they didn't account for the gain of weight in prison. And he was actually decapitated when he was hanged.
Chris:Oh wow. Well, guess that would still take care of it though.
Jeff:Yeah. I mean, I suppose that's better than dying of strangulation, right?
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Like it just snaps your head off.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:Maybe, maybe I'll put this in the episode notes, but believe it or not, there is a photo of this and I'm probably not gonna do it justice just by talking about it. But there are two guys kneeling over this headless body with the head right next to it. And they're just kind of looking at the camera, like...
Chris:Really?
Jeff:I mean, I'm not expecting'em to smile, but I don't even know why there was a picture taken in the first place. I don't know.
Chris:Yeah, they're probably just still in disbelief. So then the question is, the decapitated head, is it aware of what's happening? Because you know, they've said that.
Jeff:I know. I've heard that about the guillotine.
Chris:Yeah. Like, does your brain go on having awareness before it shuts down?
Jeff:There has to be some activity, right? Like, think about a chicken when it gets it's head cut off.
Chris:Yeah. I mean, your, your heart stops beating, circulating blood, but
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:What's to say that your brain activity is gonna immediately shut off at the same time.
Jeff:Yeah, that's creepy.
Chris:Well I don't wanna think about that very much.
Jeff:Sleep tight, everybody.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:OK. Now we're moving up to 1930. And this might be our only woman featured in botched executions. I think it is. Her name is Eva Dugan, E-v-a Dugan D-U-G-A-N. She was convicted of murdering her boss. So she worked on a chicken ranch, but I don't know what actual work she did other than being a prostitute. So evidently she was a prostitute. Her boss would pay her for sex. And then the boss would recruit people to come to the chicken ranch and pay her for sex. And then he would skim some off the top. So he was a pimp. He was a pimp on a chicken ranch in 1930. That's what he was doing.
Chris:That's classy.
Jeff:Classy. Very classy. Turns out this Eva Dugan was married five times and all of her husbands had disappeared, just vanished. So there's a common denominator here. She got into an argument evidently with her boss and he went missing. And she was trying to go around different parts of the country, but they eventually caught her and brought her back to Arizona where she faced a murder charge because they finally found his body, his rotting body on the chicken ranch. Uh, so they charged her for murder. Um, her last words,"Don't hold my arms so tight. The people will think I'm afraid." So she wanted to go out appearing tough. Remember the problem they had with Tom Ketchum, they didn't, uh, calculate his height and weight correctly. Well, that was the same with Eva here. She was decapitated through the hanging and there were 20 witnesses. And when she was decapitated, the head rolled right to where the witnesses were standing.
Chris:Oh no.
Jeff:Some people passed out. Other people were nauseated, as you might expect when you see a decapitated human head rolling toward you.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:So this led Arizona to rethink their whole method of execution here with hanging people. And so they moved to the gas chamber not too long after this. Said that'll solve our decapitation problem.
Chris:Sure. Just take deep breaths.
Jeff:Yes. All right. Uh, Gordon Northcott, 1930. This is also a hanging. He was convicted of murder and the molestation of four boys. So four murders here. He begged the guards for his life on the day of execution, as they're walking him to the gallows. As they put the noose around his neck, he was saying,"Don't, don't." So he's freaking out. Again, they miscalculated things. The length of the rope was off. It didn't decapitate him though. Um, what it did is it strangled him and it took him 13 minutes to die.
Chris:Wow. It's terrible.
Jeff:It is. You'd give me the choice. I'll take the decapitation. Just...
Chris:Absolutely.
Jeff:Yeah, that is horrible.
Chris:Any kind of death that's going to take time, it's like we talked about in another episode. You got drowning, fire, strangulation. No, that's just terrible.
Jeff:It is. Jimmy Gray, convicted of rape and murder of a, Jesus Christ, rape and murder of a three year old girl. He was given the gas chamber. This is in 1983 in Mississippi. And they strapped him to the chair, but he was still able to move his head and neck. And there was a pole right behind the chair and he kept banging his head against the pole and cried out several times, according to witnesses. After eight minutes, they decided to close the curtain so people couldn't see anymore, but he was still alive when they closed the curtain. And because of this, Mississippi passed a law the very next year, allowing for lethal injection in executions. So, we're seeing a common theme here. When there's such a major botch of an execution, states are moving to something else.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Jesse Tafero murdered two cops. He was given the electric chair. This was in 1990. I don't remember what state this was in, but witnesses and media who were there all confirmed this. Six inch flames shot from his, six inch flames shot from his head because the wrong sponge was used. So that's kinda like Green Mile. They used the wrong type of sponge. So somebody fucked that up. And so this guy has flames shooting out of his head. They gave him three separate jolts of electric, of electricity, and it took seven minutes for him to finally die.
Chris:Good grief.
Jeff:OK. A couple of more. Actually this might be the, yeah, this is the last one. OK. Donald Harding. Oh, I read about this guy. This guy was an asshole. I suppose all these guys are assholes, right? Uh, this guy kind of took it to a new level. Um, he was responsible for six murders, and in 1992, he was given a death sentence. Well, this happened in 1992. Uh, and we're talking about the gas chamber here. I'm sure this is a common theme for people on death row. I mean, first of all, people on death row, if you end up on death row, you probably have not had a very good life up to that point. Like something has gone horribly wrong. But this kind of thing is a common theme, I'm sure. He was first arrested when he was 11 years old.
Chris:Whoa.
Jeff:Yeah. So, uh, he was arrested for joy riding. I don't even know what that is. It sounds like something an 80-year-old person would say about, well, those crazy kids with their joy riding, you know, that's what it sounds like.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:When he was 15, he was arrested for burglary and grand larceny. And tell me if you think this is a good idea. He was 15 and he was sent to an adult maximum security prison.
Chris:No, I don't think so. That's uh, yeah. That's, that's not gonna improve anything.
Jeff:No, not gonna help anybody with anything. So he gets out and it should come as no surprise, uh, he goes on a crime spree. He committed a murder, uh, murder in Arkansas, in Dallas. He held up multiple individuals and families, um, all across the country. He finally ended up in Arizona. He broke into a hotel room in Phoenix and murdered a guy and robbed him. And then he went to Tucson and did the same thing. He murdered two guys. One of those guys, he found his address and went to his house, murdered his wife. And so they finally caught him, obviously. And his last meal, fried eggs, several strips of bacon, toast with butter and honey, and orange juice. That sounds a little more reasonable than our KFC guy, whoever that was.
Chris:It does. Interesting for a last meal, but, OK.
Jeff:Yeah. So he is, uh, strapped to the chair in the gas chamber and he sees the attorney general sitting there outside the gas chamber, obviously. And he gives the attorney general the finger. Which I gotta say, like, um, OK. I get it.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:I get it. When they released the gas, uh, witnesses said he convulsed violently and it took him 10 minutes and 31 seconds to die. And he was probably doing all that, what was it, urinating, defecating, and vomiting.
Chris:I bet.
Jeff:Yeah. Piss, shit, and puke. Yeah. Uh, that was him for 10 minutes and 31 seconds. He probably emptied his bowels and then some.
Chris:And then some, yeah.
Jeff:Um, because of this and the widespread publicity surrounding this botched execution, Arizona moved to lethal injection for anybody convicted of murder and sentenced to death after that. And speaking of lethal injection, there are so many, so I told you while ago, this is, this has the highest rate of botched executions, right? It's like 7% of all lethal injections are botched. There are so many that, I mean, I could have listed a bunch here, but there's so many where it's like, they can't find a vein to put the, the needle in. I didn't know this, but it makes sense, with intravenous drug users, their veins are, are shot. Like they're collapsed, so they can't support, you know, the needle. So that's a problem. There's been cases where people are writhing in pain. There've been numerous reports where it takes somebody like an hour and a half or two hours to finally kill'em. States have been running out of the drugs and these drugs are really expensive. They can't get'em from Europe because the European Union has outlawed the death penalty for quite some time. So the European pharmacies won't sell to, uh, American states. So states have been trying to come up with different methods of execution, like experimenting with them. Some states have decided, well, we're just gonna forget the drugs. We'll go back to some other method of execution. So Oklahoma has reinstated the electric chair if lethal injection drugs are not available. South Carolina has reinstated the firing squad. In fact, there was a case recently where a guy was set to get the firing squad, but that execution was delayed by the South Carolina Supreme Court. So my point there is, there are so many cases where lethal injection has been botched.
Chris:It's unbelievable that that's still happening.
Jeff:It seems like it would be the easiest, right?
Chris:Yeah. And have we not learned enough to fix it?
Jeff:I guess not.
Chris:There was one I read about where OK they're, so they're, they're supposed to put it in the arm, you know, uh, the vein in your arm. And they couldn't get it in there. So they put it in the guy's groin. They figured, well, let's do that, but it's like, they were trying to stab him all different places. Let's get this shit in him, get this over with. So they stabbed his groin and I guess that worked, I don't know. Well, that would be emasculating.
Jeff:Wouldn't it?
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:But would you even care at that point? I don't know.
Chris:Uh, probably not.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Just get it done.
Jeff:All right. Speaking of last meals, if you were on death row, what would you choose for your last meal? This is it. You're going out. This is gonna be your, the last thing you ingest.
Chris:I want the best of the best in like, a tenderloin, mashed potatoes, vegetables, bread, Caesar salad. I want the works of all of that.
Jeff:That's a good one. I was thinking about Mexican food, but now that you said that, yeah, like a good steak. A baked potato. Yeah. A salad.
Chris:Good, hearty, tasty.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:That's just good stuff.
Jeff:Yeah, it is. In fact, my mouth is watering right now.
Chris:Yes, I could do it.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Hopefully not my last, but I...
Jeff:You know what, though, if that were me, I don't even think I'd be able to eat. I'd be too nervous.
Chris:That's another thing. I know. How in the world? You know what's happening in X amount of time. How in the world do you do that?
Jeff:Yeah, I don't know. There's a book so, well, it was also a movie, uh, Dead Man Walking, you know, the movie, right?
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:It's a good movie. The book is really good too. I remember the gist of it, but at the beginning of the book, they are recounting, this guys, he's a condemned prisoner, and they are recounting like his meeting with his family. Like this is the last time he's gonna talk to his family. And I don't remember who it was. I, I think his mom. And was he married or I don't remember who, I don't remember if he had kids. It's been a long time since I read it, but it was unnerving to read that, knowing that that was the last time he was ever gonna talk to'em.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:And I can't, I'm just somebody reading this. I can't imagine being somebody in his shoes, and anybody's shoes facing this, and then being able to down a meal. Like, I don't think I could.
Chris:No, I have no idea. I, I can't imagine that either. It's, it's, uh, you know, just the idea of someone having to go away to prison.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:You're on trial and, I don't care if you did it or not. As the accused person, you've gotta hope that you're getting off, you know, that you're not going away.
Jeff:Right.
Chris:Whether you did it or not. But again, going back to that idea of having that freedom taken away and knowing that you're convicted in the courtroom, that's it. You're, you're being taken away. Nevermind if you didn't do it and now that's happening to you wrongly.
Jeff:It's a nightmare.
Chris:And, and then to think, yeah, now you're about to be killed and you're seeing these people for the last time. I just can't cannot imagine what that would be like.
Jeff:Yeah. OK. So of our methods of execution here, we have hanging, electrocution, gas chamber, lethal injection, and the firing squad. If you had to choose which one would it be?
Chris:I would think the firing squad, but I don't want any countdown. Like just I'm there.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:And, and then I'm not.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:And, and that's the thing with any of the rest of it. You would, you would have that anticipation, you know. You, you know, when you're about to be, you know, have the, the floor drop out from under you or whatever with the hanging or...
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Um, you know when they're starting the drugs on the lethal injection or I, I, I couldn't take that.
Jeff:That's just, I, I couldn't either. I, I can't even, I can't even imagine it. But you know how fast your brain works, right? Like your brain operates so fast. I'm thinking about the floor dropping out from you on a hanging. Like, your brain's gonna operate fast enough to send the signal that here it is. It's happening.
Chris:It's happened. Yes.
Jeff:Yeah. Oh man. I gotta get a deep breath just thinking about that.
Chris:Well, and things like, yeah, because things like that happen in your brain in slow motion. You can take it all in. Yeah, and no, I don't need to know any of that. Like I think the bullet would hit me about the time that I'd hear it, probably. So, you know, there's nothing to it.
Jeff:And hopefully they don't miss.
Chris:Yeah. Well, I, I wouldn't move. Get it in there real good.
Jeff:Yeah. I'd, yeah, I'd puff out my chest like, there it is. Yeah. I think that would be mine, the firing squad. My least, oh man. The least would either be the, well, no, the gas chamber. That's gotta be the worst.
Chris:I could about hyperventilate just thinking about that. Just like, are you kidding me? I've gotta watch for this?
Jeff:Yes.
Chris:And take my own deep breaths.
Jeff:Right.
Chris:No.
Jeff:Yeah. You're already freaking out.
Chris:Yeah. I would be one of the ones that would take forever to die from it because I, I would wanna resist. How do you not? How do you think you're not going to naturally resist that?
Jeff:I don't know. Yeah, it's just survival at that point. Man. That's terrible. All right. If you like that kind of stuff, if you're kind of sick and twisted, like we are you are definitely our kind of people. You have come to the right place. And so you should follow us on whatever platform you're listening to this on. If you follow us, you will get new episodes delivered automatically. You don't have to do anything. Through the magic of the internet, it will automatically appear on your device. That's pretty cool. And while you are there, go ahead and rate us. Give us five stars, if you are so inclined. We will be ever so grateful. And go ahead and leave us a review. Doesn't matter what you say. Just say anything. The more you do that, the easier it is for people to discover this show. So please go ahead and leave us a review while you're there. If you wanna know more about this show, you can go to our website, that is subpartalks.com. There you can email us. You can even leave us a voicemail. We would love either one of those or both, if you want to. If you wanna follow us on social media, you can do that on Twitter. We are@subpartalks. On Facebook, we are Subpar Talks. If you wanna follow our personal Twitter accounts on there, I am@independentjeff.
Chris:And I am@chrisbradfordtx.
Jeff:And then finally share this with your friends. Share this on social media. Talk to your friends about it. Talk to your family about it. Talk to your enemies about it, your colleagues. Uh, tell people on a street corner, uh, the crazy homeless person on the street corner. Tell them about it. I don't know that they have a device to listen to this on, but you never know. You never know. They might spread the word. Just get the word out, because the more listeners we have, the easier it is for us to bring this content to you each and every week. And my goodness, that was loaded with death. See, that was a, that was the Golden Corral of death.
Chris:Yes it sure was.
Jeff:It was a nice buffet, right? All right. Any parting thoughts on any methods of execution, botched executions?
Chris:Uh, don't want to be a part of any of it. I would suggest others not either.
Jeff:No, I don't wanna be on the, the receiving end or the giving end. I don't want any part of it.
Chris:No, I don't want to give it either. Exactly.
Jeff:All right. That is another episode of Subpar Talks and we will be back next week. Until then, so long.
