1. Description
All over America, people are trying to ban books from libraries. Who’s trying to get these books banned and why? Also, what happened when two University of Utah students showed up topless to a football game?
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6. Credits
1. Description
All over America, people are trying to ban books from libraries. Who’s trying to get these books banned and why? Also, what happened when two University of Utah students showed up topless to a football game?
2. Topics
3. Additional Resources
4. Merchandise/Support the Show
5. Contact Us/Follow Us/Rate/Subscribe
New episodes every Tuesday!
Listen, rate, follow, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts!
Follow us:
6. Credits
This week, why are people trying to ban books, and should men and women be allowed to go topless in public? Welcome to Subpar Talks. Hey everybody. Welcome to Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff.
Chris:And I'm Chris.
Jeff:Thank you so much for joining us for another episode here. And as always, before we get to our topics this week, we have our standard disclaimer, listener discretion advised. Notice our tagline for this podcast is conversations about everything. So there's really nothing off the table. And from time to time, episode to episode, we will hit on some hot button issues, touchy subjects, and there will be profanity. And we're gonna inject our humor into all of this stuff. So if that doesn't set well with you, that's OK, to each their own. But we always feel it's necessary to give that warning before we get going. And now. Let's get into this week's topic. Chris, you suggested this, uh, not too long ago, and it's a relevant topic that we've been hearing a lot about recently, and that is banned books. Something crazy that we're having to talk about in 2022. But yes, that's a thing.
Chris:Crazy is right. It's just unbelievable to me what is going on. And of course, this is all part of a larger topic as well, is the, the whole concern, worry, etc., I don't even know what other words to put on it that the messaging is around, of, whether, you know, kids are being indoctrinated, persuaded, and so on to whatever type of thinking that is not approved of by the people who are doing this, by the people who are banning and wanting to limit language and so on. And it's just unbelievably gotten out control.
Jeff:So anytime I have a subject like this, I always want to start out looking at the history of it, um, just because I think if you understand a little bit about the history, that makes it easier to understand about what you're dealing with present day. And so I thought, OK, well, we'll talk a little bit about the history of banned books, but oh my God, where do you even start? And I mean when I think of book bannings, I think of like the Nazis, right? Um, but suffice it to say, as long as people have been putting something down on a piece of paper or whatever the hell came before paper, people in positions of power have been trying to silence them. So book bans are really nothing new. I guess it's one of those things that typically flare up from time to time. And now we've got a massive flare up. So it's like a scorching case of, of herpes. Like, to use a Ferris Bueller's Day Off quote, but that's what we're dealing with right now. People are going crazy and we've seen librarians being harassed on social media. Like people doxing them, you know, giving out their home address, their information. They're being called out in school board meetings. It's just amazing what is happening here. And we're talking about librarians, Jesus Christ, the most mild-mannered people on the face of the earth. Right?
Chris:Right.
Jeff:And all of a sudden they're the target of these outlandish attacks. And so, I mean, you can just read this anywhere, but you know the group Proud Boys?
Chris:Right.
Jeff:Which in itself sounds gay. Like, I'm. I would, I would be hard pressed to come up with a gayer sounding name for my group than Proud Boys. But they've shown up at school board meetings in California. There was another one in North Carolina. People have actually called police on librarians for books that are being stocked on library shelves. And this is not just in schools. This is also just public libraries, which is absolutely amazing. And there was a. I'll get to this in a second, because this was just featured in the New York Times Magazine, not too long ago, but it is about a case in Llano County, I think is how you say that. L-L-A-N-O, I mean, it's probably Llano, but we're talking about Texas here. So"Lano","Lano County" is probably how people say it, and I don't even know where that is. But anyway, there's a, a crazy case there and I'll give us, uh, the listeners, the gist of it here in a few minutes. OK. So we do have some guidance as far as school libraries go, because as I said, this is not anything recent. People have tried to ban books before in regular libraries, just public libraries, and schools. There was a 1982 Supreme Court case that gives us some guidance here. In that, uh, opinion in that decision, the Court wrote"Local school boards may not remove books from school libraries simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books and seek by their removal to prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion." So in other words, just because you disagree with something that is contained in a book, that's not reason enough to say nobody can read the goddamn book.
Chris:See, and you would think, all right, so you're saying 1982...
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:You would think if you, if you look at other things that have happened over time since then, is that people, well, I don't know about people as a whole, but there are certainly certain things that you can see a little more acceptance. Tolerance might be a strong word, but, but things that are more out there, let's say that. Things that used to be more taboo to talk about, you know, behind closed doors, in a whisper, and so on now can at least be talked about more freely. And the very idea that that is true for a lot of things, it's just baffling to me that we're going so far the other way when it comes to books. And it's happening for exactly the reason that you just said that it can't be happening, is because they don't like it.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:It's not that there's something inherently wrong about it. It's, I don't like that. And so I don't want it out there.
Jeff:And one of the things that bugs me just to take a step back from all this is when people, uh, and by and by people I'm talking about people like this who are trying to get, you know, certain books banned, but legislatures or anybody in any type of position of power in government will pass a law or introduce a bill when there's absolutely no problem at all. It's one of those things where they say it's a solution in search of a problem, right?
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:In other words, we don't want critical race theory taught in our schools. So let's pass a law that prevents it. Well, hold on a second. Was that even a thing? Was it even happening? It's one of these things that gets people all riled up and say, oh my God, no, we can't have that taught in school. So let's pass a law against it when it wasn't even a problem in the first place. And this is an example. So I came across this, in that, um, well, I think it's a recent article in the New York Times, but they cited a poll from NPR, National Public Radio earlier this year. And one of the questions in that poll was, does your child's school teach about gender and sexuality in a way that clashes with your family's values? Only 18% of parents said yes.
Chris:Really?
Jeff:Yeah. They asked that same question about race and racism. Does the way your child's school teach race and racism conflict with your family's values. And only 14%, uh, or excuse me, 19% said that. Only 14% said that about American history. So this is a big to do about nothing. This is not the vast majority of people out there who have kids in public schools who are concerned about this stuff.
Chris:Well, that just goes exactly to our topic from last week of do the laws that are being made match what public feeling is.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:If you really want something, is that going to get passed? And then on the flip side, are things getting passed that just don't matter. Exactly, a solution and search of a problem. And you know, this turns the conversation a little more political than it already is, but it's the idea also that is your base, your constituents, it's about riling them up. To have something to fight, if you, if you're not gonna fight for something then, well, we can sure give you something to fight against.
Jeff:Yes.
Chris:You know, we're not gonna do these things that you do support and we're not gonna do things that might help improve your life. So we'll just get you riled up about something else.
Jeff:Yeah, exactly right. We'll get you all riled up. We'll find some group out there for you to be mad at and to, to direct your anger. And here, it's librarians of all people.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:It it's librarians. So it's mostly been books that involve race, and gender identity, and sexuality. That's mostly what it's been about. People getting all worked up over that.
Chris:I've seen some about language also, but it's language in books that have been out there forever. I mean, Huckleberry Finn, To Kill A Mockingbird, things like that, that are otherwise seen as classic books. Like if that language were ever going to be offensive, you would think it would've been offensive a long time ago, not today.
Jeff:And that's another thing. There are books that have been on school library shelves for decades, books that we read when we were in school, and nobody gave two shits about it. It was like, OK, yeah, that's in the library. Like, who even cares? One example is The Diary of Anne Frank.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:And I read that in the seventh grade. We had to read that. Did y'all have to read that too?
Chris:We did. Yeah.
Jeff:And, obviously what happens to her is horrible. You're talking about the Holocaust and, and all of that, but there's sexual stuff in her diary. We're talking about a, what was she at the time? Thirteen years old?
Chris:Thirteen, I think 12, 13. Yeah.
Jeff:So yeah, there's sexual stuff in there. And that's such a benign book in the first place and now people are getting all worked up over it because it's got, oh my God, sex in it, right?
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Let's freak out about that.
Chris:Yeah, I remember coming to school when kids had gotten to, you know, whatever part that was in the book, like, ooh, did you read page 113? Oh, go to that.
Jeff:I don't even remember what it was.
Chris:Well, I remember there was something in there about her getting her period the first time. But even that like, hello, who's reading that book? It's like junior high, maybe high school kids. These are not like young elementary kids. There's...
Jeff:Right.
Chris:It's happening to them anyway. I, I don't, I just don't see what's the problem with that. And, and from a different, talking about a different subject related, I mean, you're talking about the Holocaust and Nazis and things like that. I'll never forget. And, and this, this just needs to be repeated over and over until the end of time. There was a, a guy that came to our school when I, I think I was in, yeah, I was in junior high and he was a survivor of the Holocaust from a concentration camp, you know. Still had the tattoo on his arm and, and all of that. And his saying was,"It could happen again." He just kept saying that, like it could happen again. And you think when you look back and go, how could this happen again? We know what we know now. Well, how could it happen again? When we quit teaching people what happened. When you don't know what happened, and you don't know why it happened, then you are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Jeff:And it, it creeps in. It's not something that's just gonna happen overnight. And if you don't stay vigilant about it, then you're gonna look back one day and say, oh my God, here we are. And then what do we do? How, how do we get out of it? And this is one of the ways that it starts.
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:People trying to control information. And, uh, I sound like Newman, when you control the mail, you control information.
Chris:Well.
Jeff:But yeah, and that's the scary thing. And I found, um, this was linked in an article, but the American Library Association for the past 20 years has been putting out a list of the most challenged books across the country, and so I have the top 10 for 2021. And I'll just roll through these really fast and basically, like bottom line, why are people objecting to this? And when I give these descriptions, you have to consider who is actually complaining about it. So like this, this first one, Beyond Magenta, I don't know if I'm saying that title right, by Susan Kuklin, it's about six teenagers who are transgender or gender neutral. And it's just about their stories growing up. People have objected to that. There's a book called This Book Is Gay, which I like that title, but This Book Is Gay, by Juno Dawson. It's about somebody growing up LGBTQ. The Bluest Eye, by Tony Morrison. That's a classic. Um, it's won all kinds of awards. It's from 1970, I think, but it's about a black girl who thinks she's ugly. And so she prays for blue eyes. She wants blue eyes, that, she thinks that'll make her pretty. And supposedly there's sexually explicit, um, information in there in the book and child sexual abuse. And I don't know, I haven't read it. I know the gist of it. But my point there is, the people complaining about this. When they say it's, it's sexually explicit, like exactly what are we talking about? You know what I mean? Like, these people's definition of what sexually explicit is, is probably way out of the mainstream for what is actually sexually explicit.
Chris:That's true. Well, and I think also you have to consider the context of whatever the subject matter is. If we're talking about sexually explicit, well, there's sexually explicit that some, I was gonna say some, let's say that the mainstream might deem pornographic versus sexually explicit as in this is a horrible thing and a teachable subject.
Jeff:Yes.
Chris:You could have sexually explicit, that someone is being molested or something, that is not condoning it. That's saying these things happen. It is horrible. Let's get the word out and speak out against it.
Jeff:Number seven, Me and Earl and the Dying Girl, by Jesse Andrews. It's about two friends in high school who befriend a girl who has cancer. Sounds pretty innocuous to me. Supposedly it's degrading to women and there's sexual references in there, so people have freaked out about that. Number six, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian. I didn't get the author for that one, but it is about a native American boy at an all white school. And for the life of me, I couldn't like, that's what it's about. I don't know why people are objecting to that.
Chris:Well, it's one of the last Indian, Native American voices, probably, so you need to get that shut down,
Jeff:Right? Gotta finish wiping them out.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:We cannot allow them to write books. Yeah. I've heard a lot about this one, The Hate U Give, uh, by Angie Thomas. It's about a black teenage girl whose friend is shot by the police. And so these angry people are saying, oh, it's anti-police and whatever. But you talk about a topic that's relevant in the black community is about somebody being shot by the police. Like...
Chris:Absolutely.
Jeff:That's absolutely relevant. Why would, why would you discourage people from reading that? Like it's a, it's an appropriate subject, Jesus.
Chris:Well, I was gonna say, when you got, you know, the, the whole Back the Blue movement and everything, of course we want to support police when police are doing the right things. There's nothing wrong with calling the police out when they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:I talked about Chris Rock in I think it was last week's episode. One of the things that he said in his standup was talking about, you know, police violence, brutality, things like that, or, or shooting people that they shouldn't have shot. And he said, you know, there's always this, this, uh, verbiage of, well, not all police are like that. They're just some bad apples. And he said you know, there are just some professions where bad apples are not OK. And he said, what if you got on an airplane and they're like, well, you know, some of our pilots like to fly the planes into the ground. You know, we're gonna try our best to get you there today.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:He was like, you can't make those kinds of excuses. And if that kind of stuff is happening, then you fix it.
Jeff:Yeah. And I, yeah, it bothers me that when we start talking about that about police, why do we have to qualify by saying not all cops are bad. Obviously, like, right. Like stop saying that, like, we don't have to say that. Jesus Christ, you know.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Number four Out of Darkness, Ashley Hope Perez. It is about a Mexican girl, uh, having a relationship with a black boy. So, oh my God, we have, it sounds like we have an interracial relationship there. Can't condone that. Supposedly it has sexist and racist comments in it. Number three, All Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson. It's got, uh, oral sex in it. It's got anal sex and sexual assault. So there you go. Again, haven't read any of these. Don't know what's in'em other than what I'm giving you here. There's a book called Lawn Boy, I remember hearing about this. This is number two on the list. It contains a sexual encounter between two boys. And I did read where this was a young adult book, I think, but it really took off among just the general population. And it won some award that fits that category, that was like written for young adults, but then it's, um, popular among everybody. I don't know what that award is. And then the most challenged book of 2021, heard about this one too, called Gender Queer by Maia Kobabe. It's got masturbation in it. Oh my Lord. Masturbation. And there's an illustration of a man and a boy on a Greek urn. It's some famous Greek art and they recreated it in there. It's a boy and a man, and I think they're naked, but it's a, it's a drawing. It's not, like an actual picture.
Chris:That's an obvious problem.
Jeff:Right.
Chris:Nevermind on an urn, they're probably desecrating the dead or something.
Jeff:Yeah. So, that's what we're dealing with. And, and OK. I'm, I'm not gonna play devil's advocate because I don't agree with these people. And yes, I'm using that phrase, these people. I don't agree with these people on probably anything. But here, I think it's important to understand why they are, why they are concerned. They think that it is possible to flip your sexual orientation, like a light switch. They think it is a conscious decision to choose to be gay or bisexual. And if they think it's a conscious decision to do so, they think there are things out there that can persuade them to do that. And that's why they target these books on gender identity, sexual content, whatever. They think that if my kid is exposed to this material, they're gonna roll out of bed one day and tell me they're gay. And if you are a Christian conservative, that's gotta be like the worst day of your life when your kid tells you I'm gay. And so if we can suppress that information and not let it out there, then my kid will be happy and they won't be gay and they'll get married and have lots of babies who are also good Christian soldiers.
Chris:And they won't go to hell and I, as their parent, won't have to live in shame.
Jeff:Yes. So...
Chris:So it's a win-win.
Jeff:But that's, that's their whole motivation here. And by the way, all of that I just said is complete and utter bullshit. That's all that is.
Chris:Yeah. And I would ask the question of those people then. OK, if that is all true, at what age did you decide that you were heterosexual? If it's a choice, then you made the choice, right?
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:It's not automatic. So you made the choice to be heterosexual. When was that? How did you make that choice? Were you presented with all of the options? I mean, how do you know? Maybe you are gay and you didn't know. You know, I mean, that's just ridiculous.
Jeff:I don't remember sitting on the edge of my bed, wringing my hands at seven years old and thinking, do I wanna like boys or girls?
Chris:What am I gonna do?
Jeff:What am I gonna do? How do I make this decision? Here, hand me a book from the school library. Let me make a decision that way.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:It's so absurd.
Chris:Well, and the other word that we're hearing over and over now with all of this is indoctrination.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:And that could be about any of these topics that are, you know, supposedly taboo subjects that we can't talk about. But I, I heard something interesting lately. Well kind of specific and kind of in general. Specifically on this, you could say, you know, that if they, if people are seen as indoctrinating, the, the kids with these types of books, then wouldn't the absence of those books and subjects other than this be indoctrinating them as well.
Jeff:Absolutely.
Chris:I mean, you're just presenting the information that you want them to see and hear and protecting them from what you don't want them to see and hear. So you're indoctrinating them as well, just toward what you think is OK.
Jeff:And, and here's the, here's the thing about that and, and indoctrination and, and just, I guess public schools in general. But the kids who go to public schools are there to obviously be educated, but they are also there to learn how the world works. You learn social interaction, relationships with people, and all that. And if your kid is in public school, you are not the, the client of that school. The ones who are supposed to benefit from that is society as a whole. And your narrow views, whatever those might be, are not part of that whole equation on what should kids be exposed to or not. And the reality is this is stuff that kids in public schools, in these books, this is stuff that kids in public schools are dealing with, have dealt with, will deal with. And it's, it's relevant information in that regard. And I can't tell you how many, just reading through this stuff and preparing to, to talk about this on this episode, where, where former librarians or just former parents, uh, not former parents, but parents who went to school and looked at books in libraries were like, I'm so glad I had this book at 12 years old. I read this, I checked this out of the library, I checked that outta the library. And it could be for all sorts of stuff. There was one book about a girl who committed suicide, and a girl said she checked that book out when she was feeling depressed and whatever else. And she said, if I hadn't have read that book, I wouldn't be here today. Because I was on the same road as the character in that book. It's that kind of stuff that kids need to be exposed to. And if you're just telling people, nope we're not gonna even expose you to those different ideas or feelings that are present in books or whatever, then that, that doesn't have any role in a taxpayer supported institution like a school.
Chris:Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, just what you said. If you're going to control all of that, then you're already putting a philosophy out there. And in particular, I mean, you talk about public schools, if we're gonna have a, a true separation of church and state and not bring religion into public schools, um, what's a lot of this based on?
Jeff:Right.
Chris:It's based on religion
Jeff:And you know, what, if you don't want your kid exposed to this stuff, this is a free country. Send your kid to a private school, or if you wanna homeschool'em, go ahead and do that. There's no law against that. Isn't this a great country? There's no law against homeschooling your kid. If you wanna, if you wanna instruct them at school and you wanna teach the Bible as fact, go ahead and do it. Your kid's gonna have real problems when they get out into the real world, but that's your choice to do so as a parent. If you want to teach them that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth, that's your choice as a parent. You are free to do so. But you cannot take your narrow views and then project them onto everybody else in a public school. And I'm talking about being...
Chris:Or demand that they be.
Jeff:Yes. Yeah. Talking about supposedly, you know, making a choice to be gay. Since these book bans have, have flared up around the country, I have heard this from gay people, transgender individuals. They said, I grew up my entire life reading books that had straight characters and guess what? I'm still gay. So it's not like they read a bunch of books with straight characters and it caused them to be straight. So why would it be reverse?
Chris:Exactly.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Yeah, that, that's a great point because clearly, I mean, gays are in the minority and right there, if, if the majority of what they're being exposed to, and that goes, that goes for any medium, it's, it's not just the books. It's TV and movies and everything.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:The majority of what you see is the, the majority of the population it is.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:We do start to see now the, I mean I think about Modern Family, the TV show. You know, it, the whole, the whole idea of that was you've got the blended family. You've got the gay couple. You've got, it's like the modern family is a mixture of all of these different cultures and lifestyles and, and all of that coming together. But yeah, historically that's certainly not been what's presented. So, sure why haven't all the gay people been turned straight.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:By, by seeing the straight people.
Jeff:So the, uh, New York Times Magazine published this, I referred to this earlier, uh, the case in, in Llano County, Texas, and this group got together and they became fixated on a series, uh, of books by author, Don McMillan and Ross Kinnaird. And here's what these controversial titles were. Are you ready?
Chris:Probably not.
Jeff:Hold onto your hat. This is what got them. This is what got them all riled up. Children's books, which included the titles, My Butt Is So Noisy, I Broke My Butt, and I Need a New Butt. So, one book begins,"A new butt. Mine's got a crack. I can see in the mirror a crack at the back." So the character then tries to figure out how in the world he got a crack. Did he get it from riding his bicycle? Did he get it from a fart? He imagines all these new butts he could have and all that. Well, this group in Llano County, Texas absolutely lost their shit and believe it or not, they went, this is the public library, this is not the school library. They went to the County Commissioners Court and got them involved. So then the County Commissioners, one in particular, starts putting pressure on the librarian there to remove these books. And then of course they start circulating a list of other books they wanted taken away. And it's just amazing reading this, you're, you're like, what year are we living in? Like, how is this a thing? So slowly they start removing the books from this library that this particular group said we don't want. Here are more controversial titles. Are you ready? Here we go. Uh, Jane Bexley, the author of Larry The Farting Leprechaun. Uh, and Gary The Goose And His Gas On The Loose. Freddy The Farting Snowman, and Harvey The Heart Had Too Many Farts, along with My Butt Is So Noisy and I Broke My Butt. OK. These are the titles that got people so riled up, they just couldn't, they couldn't handle it. And so they actually got government officials involved to go into the library and remove these books, among others. And one librarian flat out refused and, and she was fired.
Chris:Well I'm sure.
Jeff:And good on her. She turned around and sued their ass and I hope she wins. She sued in federal court and I hope she wins.
Chris:That's still pending?
Jeff:Wrongful termination. Yeah, this just happened like last month.
Chris:Wow. That's just, all this is just unfucking believable.
Jeff:It is.
Chris:It really is. Yeah. I just think, seriously? How can we be going so far backwards? I mean, we are in this digital age that we can put out a podcast like this. We don't have to worry about what we're saying. It's in our disclaimer. You can choose to listen to it or not listen to it. You can choose to check that book out of the library or not check that book out.
Jeff:Yep. Now, speaking of this, and, and let's be clear who this is, who's trying to get these books banned. It is Christian conservatives. That's who's doing it. Can you think of a book throughout history that has a whole lot of shit in it that is scandalous? And if this were in any other book, they'd be crying for this to be banned also.
Chris:Absolutely right. I mean, the Bible's got war.
Jeff:Yep.
Chris:And rape.
Jeff:Yep.
Chris:Murder.
Jeff:Yep.
Chris:Incest.
Jeff:Yep. Animal sacrifice. Human sacrifice.
Chris:Human sacrifice.
Jeff:Yeah, Jesus Christ. I mean, Jesus was, Jesus was put on a cross and nailed to it, right? Like, that, they see that as the ultimate sacrifice. But that's violent as hell. Yeah. So I looked this up. I was curious when I started thinking about the Bible and all the violence and everything that you just mentioned has in it. Do we have a death toll from the Bible? How many people actually died in the Bible? Has anybody ever done that count? And sure enough, somebody has. Um, this is according to vocativ.com. This guy did a study. And this poor soul, he went through the entire Bible and started keeping a running count of everybody who God had killed, and specific incidences where we know that God in the Bible killed somebody through whatever different means. It's about 3 million people. But, that doesn't count the worst, which is the flood, where God killed everybody on earth, including children, except for how many people were on the Ark? Was it eight? Or, I don't remember what it was, but whatever.
Chris:I think, something like that.
Jeff:Yeah. He killed the entire population of the earth, except for those people on the Ark. So, talk about violence, and then yeah, incest. Do you know this story? This is so stupid and messed up, but do you know about the story of Lot and his daughters?
Chris:I've heard? I, I don't remember.
Jeff:I just remember the gist of it. And this is something that would've never been taught like in Sunday School. But, but Lot's daughters, if I remember right, they get all freaked out because they're aging and they're worried that they're not gonna have any children. They don't have a husband, so they're not gonna be able to have children. And so they get their dad drunk and have sex with him. And he impregnates'em both, I think. So,"My mother's my sister!"
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:From Grand Theft Auto 3.
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:That's what we're dealing with here. And that's in the Bible. Can you imagine if that was in a book written today in 2022, what those people would be saying about that being on the library shelf? They would lose their shit. They'd be like a monkey throwing their feces around the cage and yelling and jumping and hollering and all that. That's what it would be.
Chris:Absolutely.
Jeff:But it's in the Bible, so it's OK. It's OK. Do you want to hear my, my favorite Bible verse?
Chris:Let's go. It's gonna be great!
Jeff:This is something that never would've been taught in Sunday School either. This is from, um, this is from the book of Ezekiel. Um, and I said this was my second, or I said, this was my first, or favorite Bible verse. Hello. Maybe it's second to Samuel L. Jackson's recitation of Ezekiel 25:17.
Chris:I was gonna say, I know he, he quoted Ezekiel that's when I heard that.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:When it was, when I saw Pulp Fiction the first time and he started quoting Ezekiel, I was like, oh, this is not gonna end well.
Jeff:Uhuh. Like, there can't be anything good from Ezekiel. Like, somebody's gonna get murdered. Anyway, this is also from Ezekiel. I don't remember chapter and verse, but it doesn't matter does it? Um, here we go."When she carried on her whoring openly and exposed her naked body, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emissions were like that of horses. So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your boosom was caressed, and your young breasts fondled.
Chris:Well, alright. That just makes you feel very sanctimonious.
Jeff:Doesn't it? Makes you wanna just kneel and pray. God, please give me genitals like a donkey.
Chris:Give the genitals of a donkey.
Jeff:And my emissions, my emissions are lacking. I want, I want an emission like that of a horse. Please God, please. Unbelievable. But anyway. Book banning. How do you feel about topless women?
Chris:Well, is there a context? I mean, there's good naked and there's bad naked.
Jeff:Well, there's no doubt about that. You might have to take the good with the bad with this. I don't know. But, the reason I ask is because as of this recording, just this past Saturday, the University of Utah was hosting a game. And two students at said University of Utah showed up topless wearing body paint. OK. So it was made to look like they had a tank top on, but it was actually just body paint. Supposedly a, um, security officer told them to put on a shirt and they complied. They didn't put up a big stink about it. They just complied with the request and that was that. But, a YouTube influencer, and by the way, when somebody is a YouTube influencer, there's exactly a 0% chance that I'm gonna even know who that person is. But, this is a, a Christian YouTube influencer named Malia Johnson, and she also lost her shit. After it happened, she went on and posted that she was at the game with her husband and two children. She said,"It's just not OK when minors are involved. Because of all the noise we've made an investigation is underway." So she's all proud that they're conducting an investigation, the school is. And let's see, what else did she say? She said, Our first instinct is we have our kids with us and oh my gosh, we've gotta make sure we shield them." So she's all freaked out about the fact that these two women showed up in body paint and supposedly it's gonna ruin her kids' psyche if they see women's breasts. But the reason I ask you how you feel about women going topless, should women be allowed to go topless in public?
Chris:So, wow.
Jeff:I, I told you I was gonna spring a topic on you.
Chris:Right?
Jeff:For full disclosure, Chris had no idea I was gonna bring that up.
Chris:I don't even know where to start. So, what's always amazed me is the acceptance of that in certain European countries, for example. It's America is, is seen as a little bit of an outlier in terms of being as conservative as we are about certain things like that. But yeah, what's the difference in a woman being topless in the United States versus being topless in a European country where it's OK? But at the same time, let's not ignore the obvious, that yeah, from a sexual standpoint, men are visually stimulated and there is something about a topless woman that is visually stimulating.
Jeff:Genitals, like donkeys. Their donkey genitals are throwing, showing through their shorts.
Chris:Right? Yeah. So I, I don't even, I just don't know. Look, I've, I've grown up in the United States. I have had experiences in other countries as in I visited them, but I've not lived in them. So I've not taken on the cultures of other countries. And I don't, I mean, how would I feel if I had grown up in a country where that was OK. I don't know.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:I've heard that it's just not seen as that big of a deal in some of those countries. It's seen as a huge deal here. So, maybe that's what makes it that much more exciting.
Jeff:Right. So I was thinking about that. So it is the cultural norm over here for women to be covered up in public. That's just, that's the norm. Should that have a bearing on the legality of it? I don't know. I, I'm inclined to say no, because if men can go topless, then why can't women? And that's the big argument that I've seen for saying women should be able to go topless, is you allow men to go topless. So why not women? And...
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:You could say, well, women have breasts and men don't. Well, take a look around. Some men have bigger tits than women do.
Chris:Exactly. I've seen some men that need to be covered up.
Jeff:Yeah. Not just that. Put a burka on'em. Like, cover them head to toe. So I don't know. I'm inclined to say it's an, it's a, an equal rights kind of thing. If men can do it, why not women? And I know it goes against our culture norm, cultural norms, but I don't think that should have a bearing on, on the legality of it.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:I did look up this. So it's legal in Canada everywhere. And for a lot of states in the US, there's no statewide law against it. It is a city ordinance type thing. Some states though, including Utah, where this happened, they do have a statewide law against it. But I don't know what the end result there is, but I think you're gonna start to see a bigger push for allowing women to, to go topless. And I, has this ended up in court? I'm sure it has. Or if not, it will soon. Because really what is the rationale for not allowing? If men can go topless, then, then why not women?
Chris:Right. It's gonna be a hard push because you're not, we're talking about this from a logical standpoint. That's just not what all of it's about clearly, you know. It's gonna be the perception. Well, it is seen as sexualized and so, yada, yada, it's gonna go on like that.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:When uh, my son was 13, uh, took a trip to New York and we were walking through Times Square. And this was probably about, I'm gonna say one o'clock in the morning, and sure enough, there were two women, came in body paint and...
Jeff:Rock on!
Chris:Just letting it all hang out.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:And you know, whatever. OK, he's 13 years old. But I mean, I'll tell you, honestly, I thought, well, this is kind of cool. And I don't mean from a sexualized standpoint. I mean like, OK. It is one o'clock in the morning. If we're gonna talk about there being something wrong with it, then OK. They weren't out there without body pain at one o'clock in the afternoon,
Jeff:Sundown, tits out.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:It's different if it's in the middle of the day. Yeah.
Chris:Well, and, and people should also be OK. This goes back to the book thing. People should be OK with knowing that there's stuff out there that people can see, hear, that you don't have to agree with.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Just move on.
Jeff:Yeah. That's another aspect of it. Like, just the mental energy these people expend to deal with all this stuff. Instead of, how about you just talk to your kid, have a dialogue with your kid. Kids understand more than we usually think they do. So explain to your kid your particular views on that and why you think they should or should not do whatever, or read that book or whatever. Like, talk to them instead of just telling them, no, you can't do it.
Chris:Excellent point.
Jeff:So how long was it before your son was asking to go back to New York? Where the women walk around topless at one o'clock in the morning?
Chris:Well, it has been a recurring subject.
Jeff:I bet it has.
Chris:So just talking about that and like, you know, you can acknowledge that things happen. It doesn't have to be for you and move on. I heard this recently and, and I think it was just a profound way to put this, it was talking about things on the internet, like when people just post online. And people go ape shit over I can't believe you think this, I can't believe you said this. I can't believe whatever. And they just go off on, on whatever the person posted. He said, you know, when you put something out on the internet, you're just putting it out there. And the people who want it can accept it. The people who don't want it, don't have to accept it and they can move on. They said the very idea of people getting upset about the things that they do is really no different than if somebody just posted up on a bulletin board, you know, free guitar lessons and take a number. And somebody goes, I don't want guitar lessons. I can't believe you'd post that up here. Like then it's not for you.
Jeff:Right. Yes.
Chris:Move along.
Jeff:Yep. That is an excellent point. What you choose to do with that information is all on you. Yeah.
Chris:Exactly.
Jeff:I like that.
Chris:But that takes a little bit of maturity and clearly we have a ways to go.
Jeff:Well, we got a long way to go on that. Alright, there you go. If you like that kind of stuff, you are our kind of people. Book bans and, and body painting and all sorts of good stuff there. There's more of that to come. If you like our content, please follow us on whatever platform you're listening to this on. That way you'll get new episodes delivered to you automatically. You don't have to do anything. And while you're there, we would appreciate you, uh, rating us if you're so inclined. Give us five stars and also leave a review. It doesn't matter what you say, just say anything. That makes it easier for people to notice this show on those platforms. So go ahead and, and write something there. That would be excellent. If you wanna know more about us or the show in general, you can go to our website. That is subpartalks.com. You can email us there. You can also leave us a voicemail. That's a pretty cool feature. If you have suggestions for topics that you want to hear us talk about on later shows, you can leave that or just to say hey, or whatever. You can follow us on social media. On Twitter, we are@subpartalks. On Facebook, we are Subpar Talks. If you wanna follow our personal Twitter accounts on there, I am at@independentjeff.
Chris:And I am@chrisbradfordtx.
Jeff:And we have other social media links on our website, so you can go there and find those. And finally, share this with your friends, share it on social media, get the word out about Subpar Talks. Talk to anybody and everybody about this show. The more listeners we have, the easier it is for us to bring you this content. Book banning and topless women and body paint. And I gotta say, that body paint. I mean, aside from the fact that it's on a nude female, it's impressive stuff.
Chris:It really is. It's amazing. From an artistic standpoint.
Jeff:Yes. That's coming from me where my, I, I'm doing well to do stick figures. But the stuff they do with that is amazing. Yeah.
Chris:It is.
Jeff:All right. That's another episode of Subpar Talks until next week, so long.
