This week, it’s the Mafia. The mob. Organized Crime. La Cosa Nostra. We’re fascinated by it—the power, the money, the people, and the methods. A lot of interesting facts for you this week. Also, find out how the actual Mafia had a role in The Godfather. And finally, we talk about our favorite Mafia movies.
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New episodes every Tuesday!
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5. Credits
This week, it’s the Mafia. The mob. Organized Crime. La Cosa Nostra. We’re fascinated by it—the power, the money, the people, and the methods. A lot of interesting facts for you this week. Also, find out how the actual Mafia had a role in The Godfather. And finally, we talk about our favorite Mafia movies.
1. Topics
2. Additional Resources
3. Merchandise/Support the Show
4. Contact Us/Follow Us/Rate/Subscribe
New episodes every Tuesday!
Listen, rate, follow, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts!
Follow us:
5. Credits
This week, our obsession with the Mafia. Why are we obsessed with it? What are the best Mafia movies? And what are our favorite Mafia movies? Welcome to Subpar Talks. Hey everybody. Welcome to Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff.
Chris:And I'm Chris.
Jeff:Thank you so much for joining us for another episode here. And yes, as always, before we get to our topic this week, we do have our standard disclaimer, listener discretion advised. There will be profanity, perhaps a lot of it. And depending on the episode in this podcast, we will touch on some hot button issues and we inject humor into a lot of the stuff we say. So if that is not your cup of tea, that's all right. This podcast might not be the best for you. To each his own. For the rest of you, here we go with this week's topic We are hitting on today something that Chris and I are both fascinated by. I know I am. I think he would use the word fascinated too. And I guess you could tell us right now, because this week we are talking about the Mafia. Are you fascinated by the Mafia?
Chris:I think it's kind of been, uh, both of our lifelong dreams to find our way into it. Except for the getting whacked part.
Jeff:Yeah. Yeah, the problem there is we might find our way into it, but I don't think we could get out.
Chris:No, just when you think you're out, they pull you back in.
Jeff:So we're gonna get to Mafia movies in a second, but it's amazing that The Godfather 3 is so horrendously bad compared to the first two, but that's one of the most famous lines that people use:"Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in." It just seems weird that, that that line survives in such a bad movie compared to the previous two.
Chris:Yeah, no kidding. I had forgotten it was in the third one. I think I was thinking the second, but yeah. That is really weird then.
Jeff:So what do you find fascinating about the Mafia? I'm sure it's a lot of what I find fascinating too.
Chris:Just the, the power, the influence. I think the danger. I mean, I think, I think the danger is, is so intriguing. The like the pecking order and, and...
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:There's as much conflict within one section of the Mafia as there is between sections.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:I mean, you do the wrong thing in your own space, they'll take you out.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Nevermind getting taken out by somebody else. So, it's just so much of a different world than anything else we can think of in normal life.
Jeff:I find it, so yeah, I'm the same way, the power. I find it intriguing, well, in a lot of different ways, but I find it intriguing how invasive the Mafia used to be. And it is still around, but it, it has been weakened considerably over the past few decades. They were in so many industries. They infiltrated unions, politics, you know, political parties. Uh, they had their hands in so many things. And then just the way that they would go about getting money. And that's what it was about. I mean, it was all about power and control, which of course is gonna bring you money. But I mean, we, we could get into all the different things that they did, but I'm thinking just off the top of my head, like shakedowns. So we all know about loan sharking, right? So somebody needs a loan. They can't get a loan at a bank, so they go to the Mafia who's gonna loan'em money, But they charge an outrageous interest rate. And obviously you gotta pay that back. And if you can't, well they're gonna break your legs, or worse. But I know the Mafia, they would start doing that to business owners, because business owners, especially in an economic downturn, a recession or whatever, and this was huge in the 1970s because the economy was shit for a lot of that decade, is business owners couldn't get another legitimate loan. Their business was failing. They wanted to keep it afloat or whatever. So they go to the Mafia. And for that, that was more profitable because now it's not just a single person needing a loan. It's an actual business. So the Mafia would just say, you're gonna pay me the loan back, and if you can't pay me the loan back, well now we own whatever percentage of your business.
Chris:Or the whole thing.
Jeff:Yeah. Right. Yeah. Or the whole thing. Absolutely. And I find that, OK, let's get this outta the way. I know it's highly illegal, immoral, is terrible. All that stuff. Put that aside. And I really, really like learning about it and learning how they, how they went about it.
Chris:Yeah. I, I've said this about other criminal activity is why I, I feel like sometimes I have to look at it from the two different perspectives. One is, all right, let's look at it from the ethical, moral side. But then I also look at it from the, wow, you've got to have some respect for...
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:The cleverness, the, the ingenuity. And that's true for a lot of crimes, I mean, Some of the things that people have done from a criminal standpoint and go, wow, that is kind of amazing. Uh, I mean, it makes me think of the part in Breaking Bad where Walt sitting across from Gus and finds out, you know, how he's just handled this shootout with Hank and pitting what, you know, the cartel and the governments against each other and all that. And Walt goes, if I were in your situation, I would do the same thing and I respect the method. Like, his, his own brother-in-law just nearly got killed and he's telling him he respects what he did. I mean.
Jeff:Uhhuh.
Chris:Crazy. But yeah, I can feel exactly that same way about the mob. I mean, they would come into businesses and go, um, in exchange for us not just stealing everything, you're gonna give us 35%. We'll protect you from everybody else, but we're gonna go ahead and take our share right now.
Jeff:Protection rackets. So...
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:They would come in and if somebody had, well, even if it hadn't happened, but they'll say like they would come up with a story like, you know, crime is on the rise here. There's a business right down the road just got broken into or whatever. You don't want that to happen here, do you? And of course the business owner's gonna say no and say, OK, you know, we'll protect you. We'll make sure nobody ever breaks into this place. And if they do, there's gonna be serious consequences. In exchange for this protection, then you're gonna give us whatever percentage of your profits. And it's the old classic line, but it's an offer you can't refuse. Like what are you gonna do? You're gonna tell these people no?
Chris:Right? Cause then they'll just come back and you're gonna be the one who's robbed.
Jeff:Yeah. That's right.
Chris:Like they're gonna take it one way or another. Well yeah...
Jeff:How far are you going to bend over?
Chris:Right, exactly.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:I mean, you either give us the money or we're gonna come back and rob your shit. So...
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:How do you want this to go down?
Jeff:So I'm gonna mention a couple of books here in a little bit, but it is, um, it's interesting to know the history and, and kind of the glory days of the Mafia, if you can call it that. But they really, really came into their own in the 1950s, and I know that's when they really started infiltrating unions. And once you can infiltrate unions, well now you're, now you can dip your fingers into a whole bunch of different industries, like construction, and demolition, and waste management, trucking and all of that stuff that they were into. And they're controlling all of that. And it got to such a, um, uh, a state like that in New York to where you couldn't even, if you were a business trying to get a contract with the city to build whatever, you had to have the Mafia's approval first before you even got in on that. And talking about the ingenuity, I find myself reading some of this stuff about the Mafia and I'm like, wait, can you slow down? Explain it to me like I'm five. Like that's what I feel like. Like, wait a second. What were they doing? It's amazing, because a lot of these people were not, they were not like who we would call smart people. Like these are not college graduates, you know, in some high paying job. These are people who graduated high school maybe, and then they're having all these complicated schemes to be able to make money. And it reminds me of students. You learn about students and whatever method they're using to cheat, and a lot of times, they're spending so much time and effort on a method of cheating when I'm like, why didn't you just study this shit? And you wouldn't have to mess with all this. You know what I mean? But...
Chris:Right.
Jeff:Obviously they could make a lot more money than just going straight. So yeah, it's just fascinating how, how much they were able to do and how, well, as you said, the, just the ingenuity of it.
Chris:It really is. And then you have to factor in casinos, because that became such a huge thing for them. It was amazing to me when I found out, like they were still into casinos in the 80s. I had in my head at some point that it had become pretty much corporate by then. But I mean, corporations were certainly moving in, but the mob was not completely out at all. I'm, I'm not so convinced that the corporations aren't just a reinvention of the mob.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:I mean, what, what's the difference?
Jeff:Well, so you know the five families, you know, the five crime families in in New York City. And I can't remember what all they were, but they essentially control different areas of, of the city. And I don't know that it was exclusive to the five boroughs. Like there might have been spillover from one to another. But the five families controlled all of that. With as much as the government has done to try to break up the Mafia and lock people up and all of that, they do still operate. Like they are known that they have a crime boss, there's an organization and all that, so they do still operate. I don't think they're as big or invasive as they once were. I mean, that's a fact. Not just, I think they're not as invasive as they once were. But I imagine a lot of their activity has moved online, like, you know, dark web type stuff, just because there's less of a risk. And, you know, the government has ways of getting people now that they didn't have, you know,
Chris:That's a good point.
Jeff:30 or 40 years ago.
Chris:Yeah. Yeah. And clearly there's plenty that can be done on the web to remain hidden. I mean, you've got hackers of all kinds that don't get caught.
Jeff:So I know for a long time from reading, uh, a particular book that, that I'll mention in a little bit, the Mafia for a long time had all, all the families, they had a hard and fast rule: you don't get involved in the drug trade. Don't get involved in drugs. Because what the government had done was they had ramped up the penalty for any drug offenses to be so high. Like, you're gonna get locked up for a really long time. And if somebody is, is looking at whatever, 20 years for a drug crime, the Mafia bosses were afraid that if somebody's looking at that hard of a time that they're gonna crack, they're gonna rat on people and then that's gonna bring down the whole organization. So that was why they just flat out said, you know, don't get involved in drugs. And, um, it reminds me of, we'll talk about movies here in a second, but in Goodfellas, when Pauly, the crime boss is telling Ray Liotta's character, Henry Hill, to not get involved in that stuff and he slaps him. I remember he slaps him and like points his finger in his face, like, don't get involved in that. And Henry Hill says, you know, I know I'm not doing it. Meanwhile, Henry Hill's, you know, snorting cocaine left and right and, he is involved in drugs. Which is what, you know, ended up bringing'em down. But yeah, they were so scared that people were gonna rat on'em, even though they had a code that said you don't rat on people in your family. If you're looking at 20 years and, and you can give up some names and get a lot less of a sentence then, yeah, you're gonna do it.
Chris:No honor among thieves.
Jeff:Right. Do you know about RICO, the criminal statute?
Chris:Yeah, I've heard it, but I don't know a lot about it.
Jeff:OK, RICO stands for Racketeer Influence Corrupt Organizations. And for a long time before that law existed, the government didn't have a way to bring down an entire organization. Because what would happen is, OK, you get somebody for murder, you arrest them for murder. Well, the person who did the actual killing is some foot soldier in the crime family, they're really low on the totem pole. And so they're seen as expendable because, because of this honor, this code that, that the Mafia had, you don't rat on anybody. So you don't tell them why you committed the murder, if anybody ordered it, or whatever. And so the people high up in the crime families could just claim ignorance like, I didn't know anything about it or, or whatever. Because they're, the people lower in the crime family are not gonna rat on them. And they would try to, they would try to bring the crime bosses down by, you know, bugging their houses, bugging their restaurant hangouts, or whatever, but it wasn't working. So I don't know when RICO actually was enacted. But what it allows the government to do is, is if anybody has an ongoing criminal enterprise, then you're able to take everybody down who is involved in that. It's like building a giant conspiracy and, and bringing down the entire organization. And so that's what, like Rudy Giuliani, remember in the 1980s when he was US Attorney for whatever district that is in New York, back when Rudy Giuliani was, was sane.
Chris:Right. Different lifetime.
Jeff:Yeah. No kidding. He made a name for himself by, you know, bringing down these, these big time Mafia figures. But that was all done through the RICO statute.
Chris:Yeah. I think that came, that came up in, um, Goodfellas, right?
Jeff:If I remember right, yeah. And they were terrified of it. I mean, and I know just from reading stuff, the Mafia members were, were scared of it. Cause I mean, that's, that's a way that it's gonna just destroy the whole organization.
Chris:So let's talk about movies.
Jeff:OK, let me say this. So I was, um, I was talking with my wife about this recently, but...
Chris:Does she wanna be a crime boss's wife?
Jeff:Well, maybe. We're talking about the Mafia and, and how we're intrigued by it and all that. And I think a lot of that is because of what we've been exposed to in movies and shows. Would you agree?
Chris:Yes. A lot of it's, I'm sure glamorized. I mean, I like those movies because the ones that I've tended to watch are true stories.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:And obviously it doesn't end up well for a lot of them. But there's, there's glamor in it too. I mean, yeah. As long as they weren't getting caught, they could lead a good life.
Jeff:I agree. And a lot of that is because of Martin Scorsese, Is that how you say his name? I never know how to say his name. But...
Chris:Scorsese, yeah.
Jeff:He's done so much in this area and I, I like so many of his movies. But speaking of movies, so I went to IMDb and they have the top 25 Mafia movies. So, and this is ranked by IMDb, so everyday average people just get on there and rank'em, right. Number five is The Departed, which I know you've seen and really like.
Chris:It's a great movie. I just re-watched it again recently. I got into a, a thing recently where I re-watched that and a couple of others in that whole genre. They're just great. Yeah, The Departed is amazing.
Jeff:I'm trying to remember when that was released.
Chris:2006.
Jeff:Oh wow, OK. I didn't think it was that long ago. Wow. But yeah, I remember, I remember really liking it when I was in the theater and I remember, I distinctly remember walking out of there and thinking, that's absolutely one of the best movies I've seen.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:It was just so good. Now, Jack Nicholson's character in that was loosely based on Whitey Bulger, uh, the Boston crime figure. There was another movie, I think, about Whitey Bulger. Did you see that? I'm trying to remember who played it, but there's no way it was as good as The Departed. I wanna say, was it Johnny Depp? I might have that confused with another one of his.
Chris:I know that name, but I don't know why.
Jeff:Yeah, I, I know there's another movie to where it was more actual truth about Whitey Bulger's life, other than, you know what Jack Nicholson portrayed. Did you find anything?
Chris:Um, Black Mass. Johnny Depp.
Jeff:Oh, that is it. OK, that, that rings a bell. OK.
Chris:Yeah, while Jack Nicholson played a version of him as Frank Costello.
Jeff:Uh, number four, definitely in my top 10 movies of all time is Goodfellas.
Chris:Also a great one.
Jeff:It is one of those movies where if I see it on, I will stop and watch at least some of it. And it doesn't matter how many times I've seen it. It is so good and so much has been taken from that movie. Just, I mean, think about the, the picture of Ray Liotta laughing, you know, and there's been so many things made of that. But Joe Pesci's character there is just one of the best characters in the history of movies.
Chris:Shot the waiter.
Jeff:Yeah. Yeah. When, when Joe Pesci is, is, uh, they're in the bar and he's talking to the guy, hadn't seen him in a long time. And he is talking about, or the other guy, can't think of his name, but he is talking about how he used to shine my shoes.
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:And Joe Pesci, you know, that character, just loses it at the drop of a hat and they're like, calm down, calm down, whatever. And the guy apologizes. And then he says, go home and get your fucking shine box Well that was a big mistake cuz they...
Chris:Yeah it was.
Jeff:They destroy that guy and then lock him in the trunk. But see, there's so many, so many parts of that movie that are, I mean, it's drama, but it is funny. And the characters are so good. Robert De Niro, of course. But there's others.
Chris:It's funny from the outside.
Jeff:It is. Oh yeah, definitely. Funny from the outside. And that's a true story too. That's Henry Hill, uh, that Ray Liotta plays. And And he was an actual mob guy. Yeah. And ended up getting in the witness protection program. But then he couldn't, he couldn't stay straight. He got arrested I think a couple of times for stuff.
Chris:Oh, did he?
Jeff:And yeah, and I think by, I think by the mid-2000s he wasn't, no it might have been earlier than that, but he wasn't trying to hide anymore. He was like, all the people who would've killed me are either dead or they're locked up. He was like, I got nothing to worry about now. But I know he's, I think Henry Hill died seven or eight years ago.
Chris:Died in 2012.
Jeff:Oh, OK. There you go. So 10 years ago. OK, Number three, again, one of my top 10 movies of all time, but I'm not sure it belongs on this list. Tell me what you think. But according to IMDb, this is a Mafia movie and that is Pulp Fiction. Do you consider that to be a Mafia movie?
Chris:I never would've thought, no, I never would've thought of it in that category. When I looked at one point, you know, it came up on a gangster list. I could see that. I wouldn't say Mafia and gangster is necessarily the same thing. These were, they were hitmen.
Jeff:Hitmen, yes. But, for who? Marsellus Wallace, but I don't, like, I don't think, I don't think he was a big boss in a crime family or anything like...
Chris:No. I mean, yeah, they were just hit, like hitmen for hire. Right?
Jeff:Yeah. I, I think of Marsellus Wallace and I, I can't help but think of that scene when they come in and, you know, the big brain on Brett and all that stuff. And then he's asking what does Marsellus Wallace look like? He says he is black. Go on. Does he look like a bitch? Then why are you trying to fuck him like one?
Chris:Man. Samuel L. Jackson was amazing in that.
Jeff:Yeah. You know what I recently read is Pulp Fiction and Shawshank Redemption were released on the same weekend in 1994.
Chris:Really?
Jeff:That is some heavy hitting.
Chris:Yeah, it is. And they both made it. Like they both came out on top.
Jeff:Yeah. And did either one of those win Best Picture? I have no idea. They should have.
Chris:I don't think so. This came out in'94, so that would've been like a Best Picture'95. Um, that was Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump beat out both of those.
Jeff:OK. Good movie, but in my opinion, not as good as Shawshank or Pulp Fiction.
Chris:Very different genres for both.
Jeff:Yeah, no doubt.
Chris:I don't know if Pulp Fiction, even depending on its competition, I'm not sure that the Academy's gonna pick a picture like Pulp Fiction as Best Picture. Now, The Departed won Best Picture, which is interesting. But I would argue The Departed's a different, I don't know. It has a different feel than Pulp Fiction.
Jeff:Yeah. Pulp Fiction, so I, I didn't see either one of those in the theater. And the first time I saw Pulp Fiction, I was like, what the hell did I just watch?
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:Like I just didn't, I didn't really get it, didn't like it, whatever, but I gave it another chance because that's what people told me I need to do. And now, yeah, it's one of my favorite movies.
Chris:Yeah, that's one of those cult classics.
Jeff:Yeah, it was like Fargo, when I first saw Fargo, I was like, I, I, I don't get it. Why is this such a popular movie? But now I, I love it.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:OK, so that was number three on the list. Number two is The Godfather: Part II, so the sequel. And I think I've only seen it once, but I remember really, really liking it.
Chris:So I think I probably saw them, I saw one, two, and three really close together, so they all kind of ran together to me. And I think it was an overload. Like it was so much of everything. I think I probably couldn't take it all in. Nevermind that they're long anyway.
Jeff:Right.
Chris:So, yeah, it, I really can't, I don't feel like I can separate a whole lot. I just, I know The Godfather: Part II was a prequel, but I don't feel like I can separate a lot of it.
Jeff:I think part of it, so yeah, I think I've only seen it once. I think part of it was a prequel, like I think they go back talking about his childhood growing up. And I can't even think of the, the character's name of Marlon Brando. But I can't think of his.
Chris:Vito.
Jeff:Yeah, Vito Corleone, of course. I think they go back to his upbringing in Sicily, if I remember right. And that's Robert De Niro, I think.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:OK. So that was number two. And then of course, number one is the original, The Godfather, from 1972, I think is when that is.
Chris:Yep.
Jeff:It's one of those movies growing up, I'd always heard about. I mean, it's, it's pre me. I wasn't born yet, but you always hear about it. People make references to it. And then finally, oh, I don't know, 20 years ago maybe, or more, I just finally watched it and yeah, it was great. And I think I've seen it twice now.
Chris:I think that's about when I saw it, probably about that long ago also. And I think I only saw it once though. I'm, I'm sure I've seen certain scenes multiple times, but I don't think I've seen the whole movie through more than once. I, I'd probably need to see it again to like fully appreciate it. Even with The Departed, you know, having seen it again, you, I mean, it's like so many other movies you catch things that you don't catch the first time. And especially in those stories that are so complex, there's so many people, so many different plays and characters and scenarios, you know, that are playing out and keeping all of that straight. Then if you can watch it, kind of knowing more what's going to happen and really keep up with the detail more, I think you can start to appreciate it better. But I'm sure that at the time also it was probably pretty groundbreaking as a, a movie like that.
Jeff:Oh, no doubt.
Chris:And now, OK, we've seen multiple different types of movies. So going back and watching it is like, OK, yeah, it's a good movie, but does it seem great to us now the way it would to people who saw it originally?
Jeff:Back in 1972. Yeah.
Chris:Right.'72 is the same year that Deliverance came out.
Jeff:Oh man, that's another good one.
Chris:There's a different genre for you.
Jeff:There's no way that won Best Picture. Did Godfather win Best Picture?
Chris:Uh, I think, I think Godfather did. It had to have.
Jeff:There's no way Deliverance, probably didn't get nominated. Sure do got a pretty mouth, don't he? You imagine somebody saying that to somebody in the Mafia,
Chris:Oh man! It's going down!
Jeff:What the fuck did you say?
Chris:You just go ahead and grab your ankles. Squeal like a pig!
Jeff:Yeah. I've read this about The Godfather, and I've read it in more places than than one, so I'm assuming it is true. But you know how the Mafia members would never openly admit that there was anything called the Mafia, right? Like, this doesn't exist. It's not a, it's not a thing. This is just something the media made up or whatever. When the, um, the Mafia, uh, specifically the Colombo crime family learned that The Godfather was gonna be released, it had been a book and now it's gonna be a movie, they contacted the producers of The Godfather through the Italian American Civil Rights Association, and they got'em to, to not use the word Mafia in the final shooting of the script. So you won't hear the word Mafia in in any of The Godfather movies, at least the first one. I don't know about the second one.
Chris:Really?
Jeff:Yeah. And it was a, um, it was one of those things where, OK, we're gonna be nice and not say it, but I think there was also some fear that, what if we go ahead and put Mafia in the script? Will there be enough people to make a sequel?
Chris:Right.
Jeff:Just wipe everybody out.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Or put a horse head in their bed.
Chris:Yeah. So if you don't acknowledge that that's even a thing, what are you?
Jeff:So the term they always used was, uh, La Cosa Nostra, which literally translated I think is translated to our thing.
Chris:Our thing. Yeah.
Jeff:Yeah. The, the kind of the thing we don't speak of. And that's just what they would, would call it.
Chris:OK.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:The thing, The thing.
Jeff:Yeah. Yeah..
Chris:All right. Well, and they were involved, I mean, they could claim involvement in all kinds of businesses, like they were business people. They just happened to be ripping'em off and killing'em.
Jeff:Right. So that's another thing. They were involved, the Mafia, they were involved in legitimate businesses, like legitimate business enterprises, a lot of them. So for instance, they're running a restaurant. But, it's also a front for money laundering.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:And that's, you know, they're running it through there, but I'd kind of like to eat at a restaurant knowing that it's run by the Mafia.
Chris:Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, now there's, uh, the Egyptian Room in Dallas.
Jeff:OK. So I meant to tell you this earlier pre-recording and I forgot, so I'll lay it on you now. If you look up the Wikipedia page for the Dallas crime family, uh, and Chris and I both grew up in Dallas, so this is why it's relevant to us, but there's a Wikipedia page for the Dallas crime family. And at the end it talks about like the crime bosses. And the last one mentioned is Joseph Campisi, who ran it from 1973 to 1990. Now, that's what Wikipedia says. Campisi family, you probably have enough money to where you don't even care, but I'm not alleging anything. Don't whack me or sue me. But that's what the Wikipedia page says, that Joseph Campisi was a crime boss in Dallas. Yeah.
Chris:'73 you said?
Jeff:'73 to 1990. I think'90 is when he died. Yeah.
Chris:Oh, OK. Well, that's, um, later than I would've thought. Because, wasn't uh, Jack Ruby known to hang out there?
Jeff:Yeah. Yeah, he and and Joseph Campisi were pretty tight from what I've read.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:Which of course leads to all the different conspiracy theories about the Mafia involved in, you know, the Kennedy assassination and all that stuff.
Chris:We'll have to do a different show on that.
Jeff:Well, I know it. But that was one, one, the theory goes, um, that the Mafia was involved in it because the Kennedy administration, specifically Robert Kennedy, who was the attorney general, was starting to come down hard on organized crime, specifically those crime families in New York City. And so they figured if Kennedy's out of the picture, then we won't have to worry about Robert Kennedy because LBJ will be the president, and LBJ and Robert Kennedy hated each other. So it'll be another attorney general who will come in and, and maybe they won't be as hard on us or whatever. Anyway, that's, that's the conspiracy theory involving that.
Chris:Well, that didn't all go very well.
Jeff:No, it sure didn't. OK, so that's the top five on IMDb. But I have others that I like just as well. Do you have any that aren't on that list that you like?
Chris:One that I'm kind of, I mean, maybe not in the top five, but I'm surprised that it's not higher, is Donnie Brasco.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:I think Donnie Brasco is a great one that that should be right up there with those. I think it was well done, nevermind the fact that it is a true story. I mean, both of the actors, Al Pacino and Johnny Depp They're both great in there. They, they're both great in their parts. Casino is another one.
Jeff:Yeah, that's a good one.
Chris:Also based on a true story. That one was about the guy that ran the Riviera in Las Vegas.
Jeff:Yes. Such a good movie. And so Donnie Brasco, um, that's also a book, so I, I've seen the movie, obviously, but, but the book is really good too. It, it's just amazing how, I can't even remember his real name. Do you remember the guy's real name? I can't offhand. Donnie Brasco was his, his made up mob name.
Chris:Um, Joe Pascone?
Jeff:Pa-, yes, that's, it starts with a P. I don't know if it's exactly that, but yeah. It's amazing how, um, how"in" he got, but that he also, I mean, that's a lot of what the movie is, but he feels conflicted, right? He gets attached to these people.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:And he starts to have actual feelings for them and, and becomes friends with them. And, and he has to try to separate that from his job, which is taking these people down and putting them in prison. And it's a fascinating movie. And yeah, Casino's, that's so good. All the actors in that are great. And of course it's Robert De Niro again, and Joe Pesci, who he ends up in a cornfield, right?
Chris:I think so. Was that the one where he had to dig his own grave?
Jeff:Yes. Yeah. And then he gets stabbed several times.
Chris:Man.
Jeff:It was excessive from what I remember.
Chris:Yeah. That is bad news. If you're out in the middle of nowhere digging your own grave...
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:It's not gonna end well.
Jeff:No. And I, I don't specifically remember what all was said in that scene, but, if somebody's gonna make you dig your own grave, like, can't you just say no? Like just go ahead and kill me. Like save myself the trouble. Or are you hoping still at that point that they're not gonna kill you?
Chris:Maybe hoping, but you know, there are better ways and worse ways to get killed. So, maybe if you dig your own grave, they'll kill you in a better way?
Jeff:Right. Yeah, I didn't think about that. So Casino, Donny Brasco. Do you like Heat?
Chris:I remember liking it. Um, it was so long. The movie was so long and it was a long time ago when I saw it. I can't really speak to it as much as others, but I remember that I liked it.
Jeff:Yeah, it it was good. It was not as good as Casino, not as good as Donny Brasco. And this one predates those, but The Untouchables. Have you seen that?
Chris:I don't think I've seen that one.
Jeff:That's really good. So that's also got Robert De Niro in it. And that's, uh, well he plays Al Capone, so it's, it's Chicago and it's Eliot Ness, who's, you know, taking him down. It's got Sean Connery in it. I don't remember who else, but it's really good.
Chris:Oh, OK.
Jeff:Yeah. And then, I mean, those are movies and I know you haven't seen this series, but it's one you need to watch. But The Sopranos, such a good, a good series.
Chris:I'd definitely like to. I can't believe that I haven't seen it at this point. I mean, I didn't, I didn't have HBO when it was on. And...
Jeff:Same.
Chris:Ever since then, it's just been one that I've intended to see and never got to it.
Jeff:Yeah, it's kind of like Goodfellas in that there's a lot of comedy, there's a lot of funny stuff in it.
Chris:Yeah.
Jeff:I mean it's also dramatic. But you're gonna laugh as well. And it's kind of like Goodfellas in this regard too. You become like, like you start to like these people, these horrible people who will murder somebody else.
Chris:Yes.
Jeff:At the drop of a hat. But you, you get attached to'em. You like them. It's very, very Martin Scorsese-like in that you, you like these horrible people.
Chris:You start to wonder what's wrong with you when you start getting attached to these people and you're...
Jeff:Yes.
Chris:Yeah, you're rooting for the complete assholes.
Jeff:Yeah, like rooting for Walter White.
Chris:Right.
Jeff:So there are uh, two books, and one I've read and one I crapped out on about a third of the way through. The first one is Wise Guy by Nicholas Pileggi, and that is the book that Goodfellas is based on. So it is about Henry Hill and his life in the, I don't remember what crime family that was. Lucchese crime family, maybe. It doesn't matter. But it's about that and it's, it's a really quick read and it's a page turner. It is just fascinating from so many different standpoints. And he was involved, I don't think this comes up, does it come up in Goodfellas? I don't remember. But he was involved in the point shaving scandal at Boston College, I think it was. So they were, they were paying off players to throw the game, and then they're betting on, you know, the outcome. And so they know that if they can pay these players enough and then they can bet enough on the, the outcome of the game, then they're gonna make tons of money. And he was a major player in that.
Chris:Yeah. I don't remember that in the movie. The, the one big thing that was in the movie was the heist at um, it was JFK.
Jeff:Lufthansa.
Chris:But I think it was, yeah, it was before it was JFK, I think.
Jeff:Right.
Chris:Idlewild?
Jeff:Yeah. Um, yeah, he was involved in that. And have they ever caught the people who did that? I mean, I know he, I know he was, he knew about it. I don't think he was, I'm trying to remember was, how involved was he? But I don't think they've ever recovered the money.
Chris:I don't think so either.
Jeff:And I don't think they ever nailed everybody who was involved with it either.
Chris:No, I don't think so.
Jeff:Yeah. So anyway, Wise Guy, I recommend that. It's a, a really good read. And then there is a, so I, like we said at the opening of this episode, we're fascinated by the mob and I love reading Mafia stuff. And there was a book released called Five Families, by Selwyn Raab. And it's seen as the go-to book. Like, if you wanna know about the Mafia, then you read this book. And I was like, OK, I can't wait to read this. And it's like 900 pages long. And I'm like, all right, here we go. And, I gotta tell you, it is, it is so detailed. It is more than you could ever want to know about the Mafia. And finally, I just, I couldn't keep reading it because it was so incredibly detailed.
Chris:Well, 900 pages, I guess so.
Jeff:Yeah. But, I mean, it's giving you, it gives you the history of all the different crime families and, and all the major players and, it, it just, it kind of became overwhelming, I guess. But anyway, Five Families. If you're looking for a comprehensive book on the Mafia, anybody out there, that's the book. So when are we joining the Mafia?
Chris:Well, if anybody has any openings, you know how to get in touch with us.
Jeff:Here's what I want, here's what I want. I want the money and no risk to me or anybody I care about. Is that possible?
Chris:Not from the footage I've seen. I don't think so.
Jeff:I'll end up in a cornfield.
Chris:Right. I think, uh, based on that we're probably about as into the Mafia as we'll ever be.
Jeff:Well, I guess that's good and bad. I could use the money.
Chris:Well, sure.
Jeff:But I'm not a fan of being murdered.
Chris:No, especially not, I mean, well, not in any way but they don't do it very nicely.
Jeff:No, they don't.
Chris:And then we've already covered, uh, botched executions. So seeing what happens in those situations, I think just getting killed, it's not appealing.
Jeff:Is it Casino where somebody's got somebody's head and a vice? Is that in Casino or am I getting movies messed up? And doesn't somebody's eyes start to pop out?
Chris:That was in Donnie Brasco.
Jeff:Oh, OK. Well I had to turn away from the screen in that one cuz that was rough.
Chris:Donnie Brasco?
Jeff:Just, well... the scene where somebody's head...
Chris:Oh, just being in the vice?
Jeff:Is in a vice. Yeah.
Chris:Yeah. That, can you? Oh my God. Can you imagine that? Holy shit.
Jeff:No. If my head is in a vice and you wanna know information, I will tell you anything you want to hear. I'll sing like a canary.
Chris:Right? But then they're probably gonna finish you off anyway. Like, just...
Jeff:Yeah, it probably doesn't matter. You're already cooked.
Chris:Yeah. Oh damn That's, that's horrible.
Jeff:I know it. I know it.
Chris:I mean, I've said before, like having a bad headache and you feel like your head's in a vice. At least it's not.
Jeff:There it literally was All right. That is another episode of Subpar Talks. If you are a little sick and twisted like us and you like talking about this, eyes popping outta heads from being in a vice and whatever else, then you need to follow us, because there's more of this stuff to come, I can assure you. So whatever platform you're listening to this on, go ahead and follow us. That way you'll get new episodes delivered to you automatically. You don't even have to do anything. And while you're there, go ahead and rate us. If you are so inclined, give us five stars. We would love that. And give us a review. It doesn't matter what you say, just put something there because that's, uh, how we get more people to notice the show. They can find the show easier the more comments we have. So doesn't matter what you write, just go ahead and leave that comment there. And you wanna know more about us or the show. You can go to our website, that is subpartalks.com. You can email us. You can leave us a voicemail. You can say whatever, write whatever, doesn't matter. We love hearing from our listeners. If you want to give us a suggestion for topic or topics that we should cover on future episodes, let us know that too. We will always take those into consideration. You can follow us on social media. On Twitter, we are@subpartalks. On Facebook, we are Subpar Talks. If you wanna follow our personal Twitters, we would love for you to do that as well. On there, I am@independentjeff.
Chris:And I am@chrisbradfordtx.
Jeff:And if you wanna look for us on other social media sites, you can find those links on our website. And finally, get this word out to your friends about Subpar Talks. Share this on social media. Talk to your colleagues. If anybody is in the Mafia, we would love to have Mafia, ooh, maybe we could have a Mafia guest.
Chris:Yeah, come be a guest.
Jeff:How awesome would that be? Yeah. So if anybody's in one of the crime families...
Chris:We can disguise your voice, give you an alias, whatever.
Jeff:Yes. We, you don't, we're not gonna out you, trust me. We wanna live, so we're not gonna out you. We'll disguise your voice, we won't say anything about you. That would be a terrific show. It'd be fantastic. But anyway, uh, get the word out about Subpar Talks. The more people we have listening to the show, the easier it is for us to get this content to you each and every week. So there we go. The Mafia. I feel like this is a topic we'll revisit, perhaps something more specific about it.
Chris:I'm sure we will. There's always gotta be more.
Jeff:Any parting thoughts on Mafia, movies, books, people?
Chris:We covered a lot.
Jeff:Yeah, we did.
Chris:If anybody's got connections, you know how to reach us.
Jeff:All right. That's another episode of Subpar Talks. Until next week, so long.