Politically and religiously, you probably know what you believe. But have you ever thought about why you believe what you do? Most people don’t, but this week, we dive into that topic and explore where people get their morals and values, and we also talk about our influences so far in life.
1. Topics
2. Additional Resources
3. Merchandise/Support the Show
4. Contact Us/Follow Us/Rate/Subscribe
New episodes every week!
Listen, rate, follow, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts!
Follow us:
5. Credits
Politically and religiously, you probably know what you believe. But have you ever thought about why you believe what you do? Most people don’t, but this week, we dive into that topic and explore where people get their morals and values, and we also talk about our influences so far in life.
1. Topics
2. Additional Resources
3. Merchandise/Support the Show
4. Contact Us/Follow Us/Rate/Subscribe
New episodes every week!
Listen, rate, follow, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts!
Follow us:
5. Credits
This week, morals, values, and where we get our beliefs. Welcome to Subpar Talks. Hey everybody. Welcome to Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff.
Chris:And I'm Chris.
Jeff:Thank you so much for joining us for another episode here. And before we get started, we do have our standard disclaimer, listen to discretion advised. There will be, from time to time, profanity in this podcast, perhaps a lot of it. And we will touch on some mature subject matter that might not sit well with some of you, and we inject humor into all of this stuff. So, if that doesn't set well with you, then perhaps this podcast is not for you. But for the rest of you, sit back, put your feet up, grab your favorite beverage, turn the volume up, whatever, because here we go with this week's topic. All right, so this week we are talking about something that Chris, you brought up to me, I think several weeks ago, and you recently reminded me of it. And you want to tell everybody what that's about and then we can get this ball rolling.
Chris:Yeah, so it's a, it's a really big subject and can go in so many different directions, but we have, we have talked over time just about why people think the way that they do, why do they believe the things that they do, where do their values come from, their morals, their ethics. And, and then not only where is that coming from, but how much is it influencing other parts of their lives, from the standpoint of how they choose and treat their friends, their family, coworkers, interests that they have, things they're willing to do or not do. And you can see how this explodes very quickly when you, you are kind of talking about a quick, simple subject of ethics, morals, values, things like that. But they so infiltrate everything else. I just kind of find it fascinating to the extent that it has such a large effect on people and society as a whole.
Jeff:So this is actually something, I mean, I think we'll take it in a bit of a different direction than I do, but it's something I talk about in one of my courses in terms of the politics of it and political beliefs. It's called political socialization, and it's, it's simply the process through which we acquire those. Values, attitudes, whatever as it relates to politics, what you think the proper role of government should be in society and all of that. And I tell my students when we start talking about it by that point in the course, they probably know like what they are. They're liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, however they identify politically. But they have probably never thought about why they. Believe what they believe. Why do I mm-hmm. they know what they believe, but why? And the why is generally there have been things in their life so far that have influenced them in taking on those beliefs and attitudes, whatever that might be. So family's a big influence. Education, religion, uh, media. I mean, there's a lot that goes into it that, that plays a role in. and what we think about it and I tell my class like, you know, what are the two topics you're not supposed to discuss in polite company? It's religion and politics. And I tell them, we're just blowing that out of the water here because it all gets intertwined. Right. It, it all gets intertwined. Definitely. Yeah. So I think one thing also that has come up a lot. I would say the last couple of years, it's not a new thing, but maybe more studies being done about it, is the idea of people living in echo chambers. And so then that can cause you to not question the why even as much because once you go down a path of this is what I believe, Then you just continue to believe it because that's all you're hearing without questioning it at all. And that is regardless of what that original belief is. And the, the concept of the echo chamber is not new, it's just different now. And, and I would say it's more pronounced because we get it from so many different directions. Right. You know, prior to social media, you're looking at the people that you're around in your job and your neighbors and your church and you know, the, the physical places that you would be. I mean, you had, you know, three channels on tv mm-hmm. So, and, and however many radio stations, I mean, how many different places can you get information? And now that's just exponentially increased. So not to get too, uh, like teachy with this stuff. But I do talk about the media and echo chambers and media. I, I tell my students it's, it's impossible not to be influenced at least a little bit by what you see and hear and read. The media is gonna have such a profound influence on so many people. The problem is confirmation bias. And you know, we all have a bias. We all have things we like and and things we don't like, but we're much more comfortable hearing things that confirm what we already think about whatever. And I was just talking to my students about this not too long ago and I said, you know, I'm a big Dallas Cowboys. And what I want to hear is how great the Cowboys have been. all the Super Bowls, all the great players, you know, the most valued franchise in the world and all that. That's what I want to hear. I don't want to hear how we've sucked for the past 25 years and haven't won very many playoff games and haven't been back to a Super Bowl. I don't want to hear that stuff because when you hear stuff that makes you question what you think about whatever, Then that makes us uncomfortable and we don't like being uncomfortable. So conservatives are gonna go to their own area of the world. They're gonna get on their Facebook groups and their Twitter feeds and YouTube videos, and Fox News and whatever, and they're gonna consume all that. And that same message gets repeated. And liberals are gonna do the same thing. They've got MSNBC and they've got their groups on social media and all of that. And it's a massive problem because as you said, Long time ago, people were watching three channels and most of those people were watching Walter Cronkite, right? Mm-hmm. And so people are talking and thinking about the same thing, and now there is seemingly an infinite amount of information out there, correct or not, but people are consuming it, and that creates this massive political divide, which we see in the country right now. It's a huge problem.
Chris:Yeah, and talking about, you know, only being three channels in the past, they also had different standards that they had to live up to. Yeah. And we don't have that anymore either, where they can kind of just have whatever take they want on
Jeff:things. Yeah. Yeah. People on Fox News, they can just pull stuff out of their ass and report it, and there's no. There's no, uh, integrity there for, I don't know, I don't watch Fox News. I don't watch any cable news, so I don't know if this is true of all people on Fox News, but they have earned their reputation. They can just report whatever, and there's no follow-up. There's no journalistic integrity there to, you know, fall back on and keep them in line and whatever. That reminds me of artistic integrity with, with George. When they were doing the pitching, the pilot. Yes. And he said it insulted his artistic integrity. And then Jerry's getting onto, where did that come from? You're not artistic and you have no integrity. You have no integrity. Yeah. Okay. So we could do politics, religion, we could do both of these. I think that's the better course. Here, take'em one by. where did you get your religious beliefs? Not now, but what was it like grow for you growing up? And I'll give my experience in a second.
Chris:Yeah. I mean, I'm sure for most people just their home life, but that's certainly true for me. And I, I say that as in, you know, it wasn't about, Exposure to friends or anything. It literally was family. Mm-hmm. And from my absolute earliest, honestly, one of my very first memories was my dad having me on the bed, putting my shoes on, and we were going to church. And so that's it. Like as far back as I can remember, we were going to church. Mm-hmm. We were also always late to church, but
Jeff:Well that's ideal. Looking back on it like right? That's
Chris:perfect. Yeah. I wasn't really upset, but upset about it. I mean, and as a kid, come on.
Jeff:Yeah. A kid doesn't want to be in church. No, that's the worst.
Chris:Yeah. I mean, you can feel like that's where you're supposed to be, but if you can shorten it, that's even better. Yeah. Because it's all about getting outta church and eating and football games and whatever else is going on. Yep. But yeah, I mean, so we've never talked about this on here, but Jeff and I are cousins, so. His dad and my mom or brother and sister. Therefore, our grandparents on that side are the same. So there was definitely a commonality in terms of our grandparents, and I'll be more specific here as our grandmother eventually taking her kids to church all the time. And not using this term lightly, religiously. Mm-hmm. like that was absolute. Yeah. And so they were both influenced that way. They went to church. So on, as far as my mom's concerned, she just continued taking us to church and that was just always a thing.
Jeff:Yeah. So I think mine is similar and I've, I've said before on this podcast, like, I grew up in a religious. Household. I don't wanna, uh, I don't wanna give the wrong impression, like, we went to church, but we were not, we were not an overly churchy family. Like we were not like we would do a quick prayer before dinner, but that was, that was it. We weren't doing any kind of bible study, anything at home. Nothing with that. It was church on Sunday morning, church on Sunday night, and. Church on Wednesday night, but okay. That was just kind of a thing. It wasn't, you know, whatever. And I can guarantee you, when I was in church, I was not concentrating on church I was thinking about during the sermon, who the Cowboys played, what time it was. If it was a noon game, we better get outta here and get home in time for kickoff and. Preacher, hurry the hell up. I wasn't thinking that cuz that'll send me to hell. But just hurry up and get it over with. Yes. Put in our time. Let's go. Right. Yeah. It was just a habit, but I think it's safe to say our religious beliefs, uh, or non-belief, as might be the case, are radically different now than they were growing. and I mean, I know we're not alone in that. People's beliefs evolve, but I also look back and wonder what caused that, that evolution, like what was it that brought that about? You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't exactly know why.
Chris:Well, and I, I thought that same thing and tried to trace it back and, and I don't, it wasn. An event. It wasn't like that, you know, in the, in the reverse way, people have events that turn them toward religion. Yeah. And it wasn't like that, that, you know, made me question or doubt in, in an event. But over time that that's it, it was over time it was, well, I've got this question, or this doubt, or this doesn't make sense to me. Things like that. There was never an answer or answers that satisfied me and I, I also think, and okay, talking about echo chambers, and this was getting out of an echo chamber. I was fascinated, fascinated in high school, in world history when we looked at other religions. Mm-hmm. it's like, wait a minute. How does all of this exist? How do all of these other religions exist? But we do what we do thinking this is the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. they do what they do, thinking what the exact same conviction that it's the right thing to do. So it's, it's just trying to make sense of that in your head, and that's what brought up all kinds of questions and doubts and it, it didn't, I, I will say the, well, okay. I was gonna say, it didn't make me question like morals or values, but, but that's not entirely true either because some of those morals and values came what I would say strictly from the religious side of things. Mm-hmm. as opposed to. For example, yes, it's in the Bible not to kill, but that's not why I don't kill people Right,
Jeff:okay.
Chris:I just happen to think that it's not a morally acceptable or ethically acceptable thing to do to go around offing people just because you feel like it. Yeah. On the other hand, there are some other things that could be religious beliefs. Lead to, you know, this set of values, morals, et cetera, that I may not necessarily agree with anymore. And I don't think it's a, causes a problem in society. Mm-hmm. some people may say, is gonna send me to hell, but I don't think it's gonna cause a problem in
Jeff:society. Yeah, I agree. It's not a one. It's not a one event thing that causes that transformation. It's just a series of things and, and thinking more about beliefs, religion in general, whatever. I remember my mom had a coworker who was an a vowed atheist and. I remember when I learned that he was an atheist, I was like, I remember asking her like, what does he do? Like what? What does he, because I never encountered that at all. I knew what an atheist was, but I had never known anybody who was an atheist. And she said, well, he's just like us. He just doesn't believe in God. And I said, is he nice Cause my God, he's an atheist. Um, right. And she said, yeah, he is really nice. And that struck me. It always stuck with me that there are people who don't, at the time, don't believe what I do, but they're still getting along in life and they can be nice and they have to have some kind of, Guidance for what they think is good and not good. And a lot of times it does come down to, well, we have these rules in place, these laws in place because if we allow people to do that stuff, It's, it's not gonna be good for society as a whole. So yes, you're right. I don't need a book to tell me not to kill somebody. I don't need a book to tell me not to steal other people's shit, or whatever the case might be, is like I, nobody should be doing that because that's gonna make for a really bad place if we just allow that stuff to happen. So, right. I've seen this. If you are okay, person A. Says, I'm not gonna kill people because I don't think it's a good place to live in if that is gonna be allowed. And I think it's, it's wrong to do that to my fellow human being. Person B says, I'm not gonna kill people because my religious book tells me not to. Which one is the better person. Right,
Chris:exactly. Yeah, I, I heard that sometime too, as saying, you know, if the only re well say the only reason, but whatever, if that's what you're falling back on, is to say, well, I'm told not to rape, kill, steal, whatever. Yeah. And that's why I'm not, because bad things might happen to me if I do. Well, that doesn't really make you a good person. That means you're not doing it because you're afraid of the threat. Yes. You know, I, I saw somebody a while back, I can't remember where this was, uh, and on, on a video, and they said, you know, it, it was a person who was attesting to the fact that they are an atheist and said people will ask them like, Well then you can't, like how could you be a good person then? Because if you're not accepting these values that are coming from religion, and they basically said the same thing like, well then how good of a person are you if that's the reason that you're not doing it? And they're like, you know what? What keeps you from. Raping and killing and all that, and the person said, I rape and kill as much as I want to, which is none Okay. Right. That's not, I, I don't need, yeah. I don't need the Bible or, or yeah. Whatever religious authority to tell me that that's the reason I shouldn't
Jeff:be doing it. Yeah. So I, I find. Well, people's religious beliefs can get really, really complicated and nuanced. And a lot of it is really interesting regarding, uh, their different views on like, they can be of the same religion, but they have some nuanced views and it can be different, which is why I guess we have so many Christian denominations. But there is a book called. America's for Gods, and I'll, I'll link to this in the, uh, episode notes, but it was written by two professors at Baylor University, and it's a really good book. Uh, it's from 2010. It's a really good book, even if you're not religious like it is. It gives a lot of insight and what they did is they wrote a book based on. A massive study that was done of Americans religious views and what they show is that people's different conceptions of God are really tied to their political beliefs, moral beliefs, views on science and so on. Like their conception of what they think God is is really intertwined with that. But what the most interesting. Of the book for me was, and, and this is, you know, hence the title, America's for Gods. They group American's views of God into four different categories. So the first one is the authoritative God. This is the fire and brimstone kind of shit. Like God is going to intervene, he is gonna get involved and he is gonna punish people. Who don't do what he says. Okay, so that's the authoritative, this is the Old Testament God. Yes. Okay. That's a really good way to put it. The Old Testament, God, he is going to, like I said, fire and brimstone. Uh, yeah, you're going to hell if you don't fly. Right. Then there's the benevolent God. This says God is gonna intervene in. but he's going to rescue you. He is going to help you out in situations and he is going to offer you other options. And that's the old thing of, I hate this, but you know, when one door closes, God opens another. Like it's that right? It's that type of of view. And then there's the critical. This is a belief that God doesn't intervene in in daily lives, but you will be judged in the afterlife, so you better fly, right? But he's not gonna get intervened. He's not gonna intervene in in day-to-day life, but you will absolutely be judged. So from that standpoint, you better fly. Right? And then there's the distant God. This is. The idea that God created the universe and then he just let it go. So this is, uh, a lot of times called a watchmaker God. So a watchmaker constructs a watch, but then you just let it roll. and that's it. And that was the belief of a lot of our so-called founding fathers, like Thomas Jeffersons. They were Deists, that's what it was, was called. Mm-hmm. and I, I don't know that anybody goes by that term anymore. It would've morphed into something else, I guess. But it's just this belief that God created all this and then just let it go, and he doesn't get involved. and anything. So I found it really interesting that, that there are all those views. And I remember in the book, one thing that sticks out to me is this woman was being interviewed in this study and she had gotten, like, if I remember right, she had gotten crossways with her landlord or so. and her toilet had started to overflow. So she had used the bathroom, I guess and put too much toilet paper or God knows what in there. And the toilet started to overflow and she's freaked out. Now I'm gonna have to talk to the landlord or whatever. And she started praying to God that her toilet water would go down. And right after she started praying, the toilet water went. So she was of the mindset that God's involved in every single thing God cares about your toilet overflowing, which sure I personally find absurd, but there are millions of Americans who think exactly like that. Yeah,
Chris:I know Some other similarities that I've heard like that is, you know, people. Saying, oh, I prayed to God to help me find my keys or whatever, It's like, well, yeah, you found your keys. A whole bunch of people over in Africa just died of starvation, which, right, you have your
Jeff:keys, right? There's, uh, I have no idea what comedian, I don't know who this was, but I saw this recently and he was talking about that very thing, and he was like, how could God handle all these different prayers coming to him? And he's like, who gets priority? Who gets bumped up, you know, to the front of the line or whatever, and he's like, okay, I know your family is dying with the Civil War in Africa, but there's a soccer tryout in Connecticut that I have to that I have to deal with first. right? Yeah. You know what else it reminds me of? Ricky's joke about the Holocaust.
Chris:Yeah, that's a good one. And not lay, lay
Jeff:it on us cuz I don't remember. I remember it being good. It made me think, but I can't remember the exactly. Well,
Chris:I heard it, um, kind of summarized, uh, and, and I don't know if there was more to it than this or not, but basically he was, it was, uh, you know, somebody died, goes to heaven, is telling a joke to God about the Holocaust.
Jeff:Oh, it was a Jewish guy. That's what it was. A Jewish guy dies and goes to heaven. Yeah, okay.
Chris:Yeah. Just telling God a joke. About the Holocaust. God doesn't laugh and the juice says, oh, I guess you had to be there. So,
Jeff:yeah, that is a great joke. Yes. Yeah.
Chris:So of the, the, okay. Everything you just described about that book, that is really fascinating and I can see, I can see all aspects of that, where it can come from and everything. Would you be able to pick out one of those to say That was more the, the, the main belief it went growing up? Oh, for
Jeff:me, yeah. Growing up, I probably would have been more of the benevolent God I would think. Like God's gonna intervene in stuff. Mm-hmm. but he's also gonna help you out. I think I would've been more of that mindset growing up. I read this book, I think it was pretty soon after it came out, so it came out in 2010, so it would've been somewhere around there by that time in. Journey, if that's the word for it. I was the distant God and I, if I remember right at the end of the book, it has a little test you can take that, you know, you go through all the questions or whatever, and it'll tell you what you are, what your, what your, your, your view of God is. And I got the distant God. Mm-hmm. and if I remember right, they're different. Degrees and I was about as close to a non-believer as, as the book would allow Obviously I'm, it's different now for me, but yeah, that's where I was. Yeah,
Chris:so I was trying to think about that for me. Did you say the critical one is, was not involved?
Jeff:The critical one right. Does not intervene, but you're gonna get judged for sure by the stuff that you do on Earth.
Chris:So I was somewhere between the benevolent and the critical. I was always, I was always,
Jeff:um, I think I was too
Chris:led to believe, whatever you wanna say. Mm-hmm. that, that, yes, there could be intervention. I mean, that was the purpose of prayer. Right, because you're, you're praying that, well, in both respects, I mean that God's going to hear you and so that can be grateful prayers. It could also be prayers of asking for whatever. Yeah. You know, and, and that that was going to make a difference. Therefore, there would have to be intervention. For that to happen. Yeah. But very much the critical part too, because I think an overriding, an overriding thing that was always in my mind was a question of disappointment. Mm-hmm. And, and you know, I, I, I've heard this as an adult and, and I've even asked my kids this, and they can both say the same thing independently is one of the worst things that a parent can say. Say one of the worst things, they're clearly degrees, but, but, but something that can really bother you is if your parent says, I'm disappointed in you. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's a, that's like, I had higher expectations. You didn't meet it, you fell short and like, do you feel like a piece of shit now, you know, right. It, it's not the, I'm standing over you telling you all the ways that you're wrong because then you can just feel defensive and, and kind of bolster your, your yourself in defending yourself. But if they just say, I'm disappointed in you, it's. Well, damn. Yeah, I'm sorry. Like, you know, and I, I think that's the way I felt very much is like, oh, I'm just gonna do the wrong thing and God's gonna be disappointed and you can't have that.
Jeff:Right. Uh, now that you say that, I think, I think I would have been between benevolent and critical. Yeah. So in the book, they, they lump the most common. Believer or typical believer, as they call it, for all of these, for the authoritative God, the typical believer is a white male. For the benevolent God, it is a female critical God. The typical believer is a black person, and the distant God, the typical believer is a well-educated person. Hmm. Uh, obviously there's a lot of overlap and people aren't gonna fit neatly into one category, but yeah, it's a really good book. Yeah. America's for Gods. Yeah. Fascinating. Okay, so that's religion and oh my God, we could go on and on with that. Where did you get your political beliefs? Well,
Chris:definitely the same. And that was, um, growing up, you know, family. My dad was absolute, absolute staunch Republican. Mm-hmm. I never thought about or questioned in my younger years. Why? It just, it, it was, you know, that's just the way it was. My mom, um, I didn't realize, so, okay. Here, let me back up a little bit. My first. Memory of any kind of political, I'm gonna say activity that they were involved in was the, the Reagan election in 1980. Well, they both voted for Reagan. Mm-hmm. and so, That's it. I, I, I was seven years old. I didn't question anything like what your parents are doing. You assume is the right thing, the right guy. So yeah, he was the right guy. Mm-hmm. And, and for that reason, I also assumed that my mom was Republican also. Um, I think she, I think she voted for Reagan the second time. I couldn't be sure, but I know for a fact in the 88 election she was voting for Dukakis. Mm-hmm. And the way I know that is because of the violent arguments that ensued in my household. Uh oh.
Jeff:Yeah.
Chris:Because they're my dad. Staunch Republican and now Bush is following in Reagan's footsteps. So he was the defacto, how could you not? And she was going the other way and that was not pretty. But at the same time, I was now in high school and I had started debating and in debate plenty of things. If, if it's not. Political topic itself. There were certainly several topics that can go political, touch on politics and, and in touching on politics that touched on economics and so on and so on, and so, mm-hmm. it caused me, it, it forced me into a situation. To educate myself independently outside of anything I had been seeing or hearing at my house. Mm-hmm. Plus, you get to that age and you are now. Being exposed to, for example, world history. Well, what do other governments look like? Why do they think the way that they do? And that brings religion into it too. So all of that just kind of came full circle to me and it caused me to start to question a lot of things. It didn't really change my viewpoint a lot. Mm-hmm. But that was inert. That was, I'm, I'm already on this path, and I, and I, oh my goodness, that happens to so many people. It's, it is, I mean, seriously, it is a physical, what do I want to say? A, a physical, a, a law, a physics, um, that inertia is a thing, and it's certainly a thing mentally too, as you get on a. And you are going to stay on that path unless some action is taken to change that path, and that could. Other people or however other people influence you, or it is you, yourself, forcing yourself. Uh, you, you are literally putting forth that mental effort. And all of those things were kind of happening to me mm-hmm. and it caused me to expose myself. Expose myself, Whoa. That just like a left turn. All right. back up. You know, that, that caused me to, um, what do I wanna say? Enlighten myself, um, in different ways. I, I, I found other ideas, you know? Yeah. And, and, and it was fascinating to me. I was like, whoa. And I got. I got in serious arguments with my dad a couple of times at that time. Yeah. Because I was taking one stance in my debate and he told me, you don't know what you're talking about. You need to go back and learn more. And I said, well, I actually got this from here, here, here, You know, I'm just citing facts at him. And yeah, his defense was, you
Jeff:don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Cuz you're just a kid. Right. That is a actually a common thing and I. Again, I talked to my students about this stuff, but family is a massive influence, obviously, on religious beliefs, but political beliefs as well, and the chances are overwhelming that people are gonna take on the same political beliefs as the people who raised them. That's not to say they won't deviate later on, but a big reason they deviate later on is because they do have perhaps some different experiences. and one of those is education. Education's a massive influence and it sounds like it was for you. Yeah, and I can tell you for me, my parents were Democrats and I, the earliest selection I remember, but I don't remember anything about it cause I was so little. But it was that 1980 election between Carter and Reagan. And I remember being, I, I knew that my parents were voting for Carter. I didn't know what that meant, but I knew they liked Carter, not Reagan. Mm-hmm. by 1984, I got it. And I was in the third grade in 1984 and the election's coming up and the teacher had us write down who we would vote for and why.
Chris:Okay. So I was in second grade in that first election, they did the exact
Jeff:same thing. Exact same thing. Okay. Well, The answers where you went to school were probably more diverse than the answers where I went to school because I went to private Christian school, Lily White. Upper middle class to wealthy individuals. We were not upper middle class, we were straight middle class uh, through and through. But you know, we hand these in. We didn't have to write our names on'em, thank God we didn't have to write our names on'em. But the teachers reading these and it's just one after the other. I would vote for Ronald Reagan because I would vote for Ronald Reagan because, and I'm squirming in my seat because I know mine's coming. Oh, holy hell. I would vote for Ronald Reagan because, and then she gets to mind. I would vote for, Walter Mondale because it's like mm-hmm. She paused before she got to Walter Mondale. I was like, who is this person? What's wrong with you? Yeah. There were like, I don't know how many kids in the class 30, and there were two who would've voted for Walter Mondale, and I never found out who that other person was. Well,
Chris:well that was pretty representative of the whole
Jeff:country in that election. Yeah, that was a massive, that was a landslide victory. Dukakis won his home state at Massachusetts, and I think DC and Oh, well that one
Chris:too. Yeah. Bush. Oh, yeah. Well, I was talking about Mondale and Reagan. Yeah. Yeah. Reagan
Jeff:swept it with Mondale. Yeah. I met Mondale. Yeah, Mondale. Oh, he won his home. State of Minnesota. Yeah. Yeah. And DC Mm. Yeah, that was it. So in dc Yeah, that was it. That's the biggest electoral. Margin we ever had. Reagan, I think he got 525 electoral votes. Dang. Yeah, so education was a big one for me. I mean, obviously the influence of parents education was, but it wasn't so much my education experience until I got to college. But then when I got to law school mm-hmm. and most attorneys. Liberal in their political views. It's one of the biggest voting blocks for Democrats is attorneys. And I think a big reason for that is because of my experience is similar to others. When you start learning all the different ways that laws or lack of laws have fucked people over. and how much the little guy gets stepped on and crapped on and everything else And you learn how laws can actually transform societies and make things better for people who have been at a disadvantage and the people who've been a dis at a disadvantage in American society. That's a very long list, but you learn how the law can work for. The good of society, it's gonna lead to more liberal views that way. So that was a big one for me. Education for sure. Mm-hmm. Okay. So we both grew up in Dallas, but different parts of Dallas. Would you say you're envi, but you went to a public school? I went to a private school. Would you say you grew up in a diverse environment and did that have any effect on. Views later on, political views,
Chris:diverse. So there was definitely some, what I don't want to say income diversity. Mm-hmm. that, that definitely existed because in the area where I was, there were. It was a real mixture of all kinds of, of living situations, old houses, new houses, apartments, all, all like, just, uh, a complete mixture of all of that. Mm-hmm. So from an income situation, I would say, it was probably upper middle class still. But you would see variation within that. That's the, that's the correct way to put it. I think it was upper middle class, but there was variation. Mm-hmm. racially, not so much. Um, the majority of people definitely were. There were Hispanics, there were blacks, Asians, but clearly all of them more in the
Jeff:minority. Yeah. Interesting. So, yeah, my private school, like we didn't have any, any black students in my graduating class. It was a small class, like 60 something students, but we didn't have a single black person. There, and I'm trying to remember if we had any Hispanic individuals. I don't remember, but yeah, super white. But I grew up in a very middle class working class area of Dallas, and there was more diversity in that neighborhood, but not even back then. Not really racially. There were black families on the street, Hispanic families, but it was still mostly white until. I don't know until about the time I graduated from high school, it started becoming much more racially diverse, but mm-hmm. Yeah. I would say that I, I did interact with other people in that neighborhood who were not, did definitely did not have my type of background. Right. Just income wise and, and, uh, racially as well. But yeah, it's, I just wondered that if that had any influence on.
Chris:Uh, I'm sure absolutely. Well, yeah, in ways that I probably don't even know, but it, it had to have, I mean, if I had been in a more, at least racially diverse, then that would've exposed me to different ideas, concepts, certainly probably economic situations, although in that area, like I said, there, there. Economic diversity, but it wasn't probably not massive
Jeff:swings. Yeah. Have you ever heard that people tend to get more conservative politically as they age? Have you heard that? I
Chris:have heard that. I can understand that to an extent where people just. I don't know. Seems like some people can tend to get more conservative in their beliefs overall, but that's certainly, I mean, there are exceptions,
Jeff:obviously. Well, I just asked that cuz I've definitely found that not to be the case with me. I remember hearing that when I was younger that people tend to get more conservative as. Age. And so I kind of figured I would go along that path and that hasn't happened. I don't know if that's a reflection of how we've been fucked over for the past, how long we've been fucked, how long have we been bending over, see, when were we born,
Chris:how long we've been grabbing our ankles
Jeff:at least the past two decades. I'm just thinking economically like the, the economy's. Terrible. Maybe not two decades, but past 15 years easily. But I think of all the other ways. I don't know, maybe it's a reflection of that, but I don't think, I don't think we're alone in that. I think that's more of a reflection of the times, but, I haven't found that to be the case. I remember a quote from Winston Churchill, this is when I learned that that tends to happen with people as they get older. Winston Churchill said, if you're not liberal, when you're young, you don't have a heart. And if you're not conservative, when you're old, you don't have a brain. And I remember laughing at that quote and then thinking, well, okay, well that's just because people get more conservative as they age, but. I'm smarter now than I was 20 years ago, 30 years ago. I've lived, I've experienced things and that has not led to me being more conservative politically, not even close.
Chris:Right. Well, and I feel the same way, and I do think absolutely. That that is a factor of, I'm gonna say education and I don't just mean that in, in. Formal education sense, but literally it, uh, I was gonna say, exposing myself, literally, you know, seeking out, seeking out, uh, thoughts, ideas. Why did these people think what they think? What are the, what have they been through, what are they exposed to? All of those kinds of things. And what I would be interested in, now that you brought that, is what is the difference or what's the different experience say in one or two generations ago? Mm-hmm. versus US and a generation or two beyond us. Are they experiencing that same thing? And I say that because they're so much more information out there now. Yeah. Now if they stay in the echo chamber, That's not gonna change anything. Right. But if they allow themselves to seek that those things out and just learn as much as possible, then yeah. It would be interesting to see if that's evolving
Jeff:or not. Yeah. You know what? My favorite Winston Churchill quotas. What he said, the strongest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter
Chris:Well, I don't know
Jeff:if I can argue with that No, I, I don't think I can. But what else is there, right? Like Yeah, I mean, we have to have the, people have a say. But it gets back to what we talked about on a past episode, like how much, how much say, should everyday, average voters have.
Chris:Right. And like we talked about before, a jury of your peers. Yeah. Those are the same people voting too.
Jeff:Yeah. So, you know, something else, so not to belabor this, but stuff that influences people. In in their political beliefs. And one of those I talk about with my students is events. Like if like it could be a major event, like a worldwide type event of event like nine 11, that can influence people. profoundly, like before nine 11, Americans generally weren't concerned with terrorism. Right? And then that happens, and then that's like on the top of their list. And, and so it becomes about what should the government do in response to that and how should we handle that? And events can have a big deal, uh, a big influence on people. But I tell students it doesn't have to be a big event like that. It can be something more personal. In, in their lives that can affect how they view the world, how they see politics, whatever. And I think about our ankle grabber episode, how there have been events in my life where I look at it and that affects my beliefs without a doubt, right? Just being, yeah, fucked over one way or the other. And that, that's definitely gonna have an effect on, on how people view things. That's
Chris:a good point. That's a very good point, cuz yeah, there are those major things for sure. Yeah. Unfortunately we've had, I think too many of those. In the last, yeah, I'm kidding. 20, 25 years.
Jeff:Yeah. Without a doubt. All right, there you go. That is where people get their beliefs and morals and values and ethics and all that good stuff. And it's an interesting exercise. We, we generally know what we believe, but we never really think about why we have the views that we do. It's a good exercise, and I'll say this. Just to, to wrap it up, I wish more people would do this to learn where people get their views, because not only is it instructive, like a self-reflection type thing, but. It would do the world so much better if people could understand where other people are coming from, like why other people have the views that they do. It doesn't mean they're going to agree with them any more than they would starting out, but at least to understand why people have the views that they do to put themselves in other people's shoes. That would help us a lot in a lot of different areas, especially politically. But that's probably asking too much of people.
Chris:Well, that's absolutely true. You know, people could at least both come more toward the middle. They can still differ in their beliefs, but they're more toward the middle instead of So polar
Jeff:opposite. That's right. Okay. If you are into this kind of stuff, if you like this, then this is your podcast. We would love for you to follow us on whatever platform you listen to podcast on. That way you will get new episodes delivered to you automatically. You never even have to do anything. And while you are there, go ahead and rate us. We would love it if you would give us five stars. Go ahead and leave a comment there as well. It doesn't matter what you say, but if you leave a comment, It makes it easier for people to discover this show, and that's exactly what we want. So just put something there and we would appreciate it. You can go to our website, that is Subpar Talks dot com. You can find out more about the show, more about us, whatever the case might be. You can al also email us there. You can leave a voicemail just to say, Hey. It doesn't matter what you say. We always want to hear from listeners and you can make suggestions for topics we should cover on future episodes. We will always, always take that into consideration. We would also like it if you'd follow us on social media on Twitter. We are at Subpar Talks on Facebook. We are Subpar Talks. If you wanna follow our personal Twitter accounts, we'd like that as well. On there. I am at independent. And I am
Chris:at Chris Bradford, tx,
Jeff:and we have other social media links on our website. You can check those out. And finally, get the word out about Subpar Talks. Share this with your friends, family, colleagues, whoever. Share this on social media. Refer us to your friends. The more listeners we have, the easier it is for us to get this content to you each and every week. And that is another episode. Chris, any final thoughts? Any more exposing yourself,
Chris:No, I think I did enough of that today,
Jeff:That's good to know. All right. Very good. That is it for this week, and we will be back next week Until done so long.