156: Copy that converts (and how to use words that drive more sales) with Rae Dillon

In episode 156 of Online Business Uncovered, I’m joined by copywriter, editor, trainer and speaker Rae Dillon to talk about one of the biggest reasons your business might not be converting… the words you’re using.

You might have a great offer, a brilliant service and be showing up consistently online but if your messaging isn’t landing with the right people then your content won’t convert the way you want it to.

In this open and honest conversation, Rae shares practical advice on how to improve your copy, find your voice, create more authentic content and write in a way that builds trust and encourages action.

We also talk about the role of AI in content creation, why authenticity matters more than ever, how blogging can support your visibility and what makes email marketing so powerful when it comes to building real relationships with your audience.

If you’ve ever struggled with what to say in your marketing, how to sound more like yourself or how to create content that actually connects then this episode is for you!

Rae Dillon Details

Click here to get in touch with Rae Dillon

Transcript

Speaker A [00:00:00]:
Hello and welcome to Online Business Uncovered. This is episode 156, and in today's episode, I'm going to be talking about one of the biggest reasons that your business might not be converting, and that could be down to the words that you're using. So we're gonna be exploring what you can do to improve your results. So let's jump right in and let's get started.

Speaker B [00:00:28]:
Welcome to Online Business Uncovered, the show the lid on what it really takes to turn your brilliance into digital products, passive income, and time freedom. I am your host, Karen, an online business strategist, course creation expert, and your go-to for building a business that works for you and not the other way around. If you are an ambitious entrepreneur feeling overwhelmed, burnt out, or maybe you're just ready for a smarter, more sustainable way to grow, then you're in the right place because each week I'll be bringing you inspiring conversations, practical strategies, and step-by-step step guidance to help you create scalable, repeatable digital products that sell even while you sleep. So if you're ready to stop trading your time for money, reclaim your time, and finally build a business that gives you the freedom that you deserve, hit subscribe and tune in every Thursday. Let's uncover what's truly possible for you starting now.

Speaker A [00:01:31]:
Hello and welcome back to Online Business Uncovered, the podcast that helps you turn your expertise into digital products, passive income, and of course, time freedom. I'm your host, Karen, and I really do appreciate you hitting that play button to listen to today's episode. Now, in today's episode, I have a guest joining me as the topic we're going to be talking about is a really important topic because we're going to be talking about something that I think most entrepreneurs completely overlook in their business, and that's the words that they're using.

So today I have a guest, Rae Dillon, who is an expert copywriter who will be sharing her wisdom, her guidance, and her thoughts about how to create better copy that converts. Because here's the thing, you may have an incredible offer, you may have a really great audience that you are attracting, and you could be showing up consistently, but The truth is that if your messaging is not landing, then your business simply won't convert. So today we're gonna dive into that and we're gonna be talking about the power of words in your business and how your copy can quite literally make or break your conversions. So let's jump right in and let's get started.

Speaker B [00:02:54]:
Today I've got a real treat for you because I have a guest on the show who is a fantastic copywriter, editor, trainer, and speaker. and she is coming on the show today to really talk about the power of copywriting and the difference it can make in your business when you are trying to, um, compel your audience to take action. So I would like to introduce Rae Dillon. Um, welcome Rae to the show. It's lovely to have you today.

Speaker C [00:03:31]:
Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here.

Speaker B [00:03:34]:
So do you want to start by just sharing with my listeners who you are, what you do, um, and how you help people in your world?

Speaker C [00:03:44]:
Yeah, absolutely. So as you said, I am a copywriter and editor, so I edit books, um, as well as doing writing for small businesses. I also train small business owners to write better. So not everyone can afford to hire a copywriter, much as I would love them to.

Speaker B [00:04:02]:
And I—

Speaker C [00:04:03]:
and most business, small business owners write all their own content, but most of them have never had any training on how to do that well. So I noticed a kind of gap there, and that's why I started doing training. Now, I used to be a teacher. I was a teacher for 17 years before I started my copywriting business. So I know a little bit about teaching people. So it made sense to kind of put the two together, basically. Um, and as part of that, I also have a membership to support people, uh, in an ongoing basis, give people a bit of personalized support with their writing. So they can ask me anytime if they need a little bit of support with their writing.

Speaker C [00:04:40]:
And then we've got a library of resources, masterclasses, guest speakers as well. Karen's coming on.

Speaker B [00:04:45]:
Yes, I am.

Speaker C [00:04:47]:
Yeah, which I'm excited about as well. So yeah, that's basically it. In a nutshell.

Speaker B [00:04:54]:
Yeah, it's interesting you said about the skill of writing and, you know, obviously teaching other entrepreneurs how to write compelling copy in their business so that they can, you know, stand out and attract the right audience. It's one of those things, isn't it, that when you start a business, you start a business because you're passionate about the thing that you do, the thing that you offer. And then once you have your business, you realize that there are so many skills that you don't have because up until that point you've never needed them. So why would you need them, you know?

Speaker C [00:05:31]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:05:31]:
So, so that's— and copywriting, I think, is one of those skills, isn't it? When, when you start looking to market your business and to get yourself in front of an audience, yeah, those skills really do matter. But like you say, so many don't have them because it's not been something that they've perhaps been taught at school or in, um, in previous, you know, sort of employment or anything like that.

Speaker C [00:05:57]:
Yeah, absolutely. And writing for business is very different from the writing we learn at school, for sure. Um, but there's elements of it, like the persuasive writing you might learn at school has kind of got elements of it. Um, but, but that's about it. Other than that, it's very different. So it is a skill, as you say, and if you don't write good copy, then you're losing customers. Essentially, you're losing customers. So you've, you've got to be very clear in your messaging who your target audience is, so who you're writing to, and also what kind of your values are and what you stand for.

Speaker C [00:06:38]:
And especially at the moment with all the AI out there, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, I can do it for me. But obviously it's been around a little while now and you can see that there's so much of the content made by AI online. You can tell it's written by AI. It all sounds the same. It doesn't quite sound human. You know, it just doesn't have the same personality that people have when they're writing, you know? And I think people are so caught up on getting content out there that like as much as possible out there. That they don't realize that's not the most important thing. It's more important to be authentic, be yourself, and be consistent.

Speaker C [00:07:21]:
So you don't have to post every day. If you post 2 or 3 times a week, you do it at the same day and time every week, that's going to be more effective than posting every single day for, say, a month and then going, I've run out of ideas, I don't know what to say now. And then not posting for 2 weeks. So it's— yeah, it's much more important to post quality content consistently than it is to post a load of rubbish.

Speaker B [00:07:50]:
Yeah, I do agree with you. It's really interesting on the feeds, isn't it, when you read people's copy and a lot of it does sound the same. And there's some real giveaways when it comes to AI and being able to kind of sort of see, you know, what AI has written. And I think I think the one thing that writing copy gives you is a way of expressing your personality.

Speaker C [00:08:17]:
Absolutely.

Speaker B [00:08:18]:
And writing in a way that, that connects you to your audience. And the moment you start to allow AI to take over and to do the work, then you're gonna— you're going to lose that connection because it's not personal. Yeah, it doesn't come from that place of this is what I really want to say and this is how I need to say it because that's unique to me. It just becomes more noise in already of a sea of noise. Yeah, absolutely. So, so AI is such an interesting thing because there's so much good that comes from it. Yeah. You know, it's a really useful tool in your business and especially for small micro-business owners that don't have a marketing team.

Speaker B [00:09:03]:
It can do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of, you know, brainstorming ideas and coming up with, you know, you know, strategy plans and things like that.

Speaker C [00:09:11]:
Absolutely.

Speaker B [00:09:12]:
But I think when it comes to writing, yeah, you can use it, use it as a tool, like you said. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:09:20]:
Planning content ideas, things like that. Use it as a first draft even, but make sure you do it that way round. Get the AI to come up with an idea for you, maybe do a first draft, but then you edit it and put it into your words with your personality. And then put it out. Never put out what it produces as is, and don't do it the other way around as well. I know some people have gone, oh, I write something and then I put it into AI to make it better. No, don't do it that way around because it won't make it better. It will take away your personality and it'll make it the same as everything else.

Speaker C [00:09:51]:
So don't do it that way around. Use it for sure as a starting point, um, but only as a first draft, and then you edit it and put it into your own words. That's the best way around to do it.

Speaker B [00:10:02]:
Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. And you're absolutely right. It's— AI is interesting because it does remove the things that actually make the copy stand out and make, you know, that personality and everything. I think my problem with AI is it kind of— it chops up sentences and it's like you're speaking in, you know, bite-sized form.

Speaker C [00:10:29]:
Yes.

Speaker B [00:10:29]:
You know, soundbites. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:10:31]:
Yeah. Not as you would actually say it.

Speaker B [00:10:33]:
Yeah, people don't speak like that. So when you then see it online, you're like, yeah, it just jars a little bit, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, because it's not natural. It's not natural. And, you know, and I do feel as well there's a bit of laziness around that. I think if you want people to listen to you and to come into your world and be a part of your world, yeah, um, and, and buy from you or whatever, then, then just kind putting something out from AI and putting it out there, it doesn't, it doesn't feel quite, quite right, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Almost like you're cutting corners a little bit, you know? And people, I think in today's world, I think that authenticity is so important. People want to know the person that they're, they're hearing from, don't they?

Speaker C [00:11:21]:
Yeah, absolutely. It's that whole know, like, trust thing. If people aren't going to buy from you unless they know who you are, they like you because you resonate with them and can relate to them. And they trust you that when they give you their money, you're going to deliver on what you say you're going to deliver on. Because there's so many people now online that are, you know, putting out courses and things like that that are just rubbish. And so people have been burnt and so no one trusts anyone. So you've got to earn that trust and you're not going to do that by putting AI-generated content out there. You've got to put yourself out there.

Speaker C [00:11:57]:
And I'm not saying, you know, put every aspect of your life out there for sure, but elements of your life. So for example, most people that, you know, follow me and connect with me know that I love to travel. That's my other passion outside of writing. So I always share things about travel. Like every week on a Wednesday, I do a Where in the World Wednesday post about one of the places, one of the countries I've been to. I think I'm up to This week, tomorrow is Thailand. I'm up to the T's. Oh, 65 out of 73 countries because I'm doing them in alphabetical order.

Speaker B [00:12:30]:
Yeah, amazing. That's such a good idea, isn't it? Yeah. And that demonstrates personality. And I think online it is about building your personal brand.

Speaker C [00:12:41]:
Oh, it absolutely is.

Speaker B [00:12:42]:
Yeah, people are buying into you. And like you say, that know, like, and trust. And why Why are they— why are you that person that they're going to buy from? What is it about you that compels them to hand over their money? And I think it's the words that you say and the way that you appear online is going to kind of build that trust. So when you kind of try and fast-track it and put something out that is— that isn't genuine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I think, I don't think that can damage your personal brand, if anything.

Speaker C [00:13:24]:
Absolutely can. Yeah. And another important thing to remember with AI is that it makes things up. It hallucinates. It is biased as well because of the way it's been trained. So there's a lot of innate bias in it, which is not normally a problem with producing content. But if you say, ask it to make you an image, of, say, a CEO, 95% of the time it will make an image of a white man.

Speaker B [00:13:52]:
Yes.

Speaker C [00:13:52]:
So things like that are ingrained in it. You need to be really careful when getting it to produce things like that for you, that you tell it not to use stereotypes, not to make assumptions, not to include any bias. And even then, you still need to check it. Still need to check it every time. And it's designed to always agree with you. As well.

Speaker B [00:14:15]:
Yeah, but Ray, I like that. I like the fact that it always agrees with me, you know.

Speaker C [00:14:20]:
But that's not always useful because if you're like trying to figure something out or say, right, is this post better or is that post better, it will just say they're both great because you came up with it. So it, you know, so it's not always good.

Speaker B [00:14:33]:
I like, I like the positive reinforcement. You're doing a good job, you know, keep going.

Speaker C [00:14:39]:
Yeah, it is good for that. That's true. It is good for that.

Speaker B [00:14:41]:
Sometimes, you know, you need your ego massaged a bit, you know. And I did something yesterday and it made me laugh because it came back and it gave me this feedback, but it was like, it was so positive and it was so, um, like, yeah. And I said to my husband, like, in the evening, I was like, oh, I did this and it came back and said this stuff. And I said, and it made me feel so good because, yeah, you know, I was really tired last night. So, so yesterday was a real struggle for me because I'd had a heavy weekend. Yeah. Um, because I'd been at a festival and So, so I'm doing this thing and I'm kind of asking chat and it's coming back and yeah, you're doing brilliantly and you're doing that. That's exactly what I needed to hear.

Speaker B [00:15:28]:
And it never, it never says no to me.

Speaker C [00:15:30]:
No.

Speaker B [00:15:31]:
So I like that as well. I never get it saying no to me.

Speaker C [00:15:36]:
You have got to be careful though, because like, so I thought I tried it one time for some research for an article I was writing for a client about local schools. And I thought I'll just get it to give me a list of the schools in that town with, you know, the type of school, the number of students, the size, what facilities, you know, basic information.

Speaker B [00:15:56]:
Yeah.

Speaker C [00:15:57]:
And I was checking it, went down the list, two of the addresses were wrong, and then it made up two schools that don't exist in the whole country. Not even not in that town, they don't exist.

Speaker B [00:16:10]:
Wow. So dangerous, isn't it? Like, if you're heavily relying on chat and you're using chat as like gospel, yeah, whatever chat gives me, it's like, it's, it's as the truth. And then you, like, say you, you submit something and, and realize that actually the information's incorrect. And like you say, you know, so yeah, I think I agree with you. I think when it comes to AI, you've got to be ever so careful. And, and I agree that it's about using it in your daily workflow or, yeah, you know, as, as a tool to support you.

Speaker C [00:16:45]:
Yes.

Speaker B [00:16:46]:
Um, and you know, maybe, but not the final thing. We still need to incorporate our own voice.

Speaker C [00:16:54]:
Absolutely.

Speaker B [00:16:55]:
Um, you know, in order to make that connection. Now, something that I wanted to ask you is, how do you— if you are new to business, you're just starting out, you're just finding your feet in the world of marketing and copywriting. Yeah. How do you find your own voice, find your style of writing?

Speaker C [00:17:18]:
So there's a few things that you can do, first of all, and that's you can start with deciding what your brand voice is going to be like. So is it going to be really formal? Is it going to be really casual? Are you going to include swear words? Are there certain phrases you're going to include or not include? What are the main topics you're going to be writing about? So all those kind of things, it's a good idea to kind of sit down and decide for yourself, what does my brand sound like? And normally, if you're a solopreneur, that brand personality is your personality. So it should be quite easy to figure out, like, how do I normally talk? How do I normally write things? And that is your then brand voice. But it's a good idea to kind of plan it out just so that you've got it set in your head and you can be consistent with it then going forward, so that if things change in the future, you've got that to refer back to and go, right, this is the kind of phrases I use, these phrases I don't use, that kind of thing, um, just to get it clear in your own mind. Um, and then if you're stuck on what to write about, because I get a lot of people saying I don't know what to write about, think about 3 to 5 main areas in your business that are either things you do, information you provide, but the main kind of topics or themes that you cover in your business that you could share information about. And those— don't have more than 5— those 3 to 5 topics, they're your content pillars. So they are your main themes, and then everything you write can fall under one of those main topics. And that really helps you then to go, right, this week I'm going to write under this topic.

Speaker C [00:19:04]:
Next week I'm going to do the next topic, and so on and so forth. And you can split them down, and everything you then write about can fall under those categories, those topics. And that just gives you a really good starting point, and it helps with the consistency as well, because then people will start to know that these are the areas you know about, you're an expert in, and go— and are more likely to start referring to you for that particular topic.

Speaker B [00:19:29]:
Yeah, that's really good tip. Yeah, I think it's really important to really narrow down your— where, where your expertise falls so that you can be really clear about how you help. And I think something that I think probably a lot of newbie business owners tend to do is— and I, and I've been there at networking where they say, I can do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and, and you end up just being like, too many things. What do you do? What at the very core where you help people the most. So I think that's a great idea. 5, you know, areas of expertise that fall under your expertise that you can talk about.

Speaker C [00:20:11]:
Yes.

Speaker B [00:20:12]:
And that makes it easier, like you say, when you're, when you're looking to create that content online.

Speaker C [00:20:17]:
Absolutely. And I've heard it a lot recently. Instead of trying to do lots of things like you were just saying, do one thing really well and get known for that, and then you can expand into doing other things.

Speaker B [00:20:29]:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And when I moved over from sort of my branding studio, I was talking for years, I was talking about branding, branding, branding, and that's what, you know, people would know me for. And then when I moved into the online course space, I spoke so much about online courses to the point that I just got— I was sick of my own voice. I was sick of like writing about it and all of this, you know, because You need to be really clear. And when I moved in over into the online space, I made the decision that it was on— I was going to speak about online courses because that was where I could help. And like you said, I came up with my 5 pillars of what would come under. So it'd be things like, you know, it would be, you know, mindset and confidence, or it would be tech or, you know, planning. Or, um, you know, create launching.

Speaker B [00:21:27]:
So there would be really key things, and then over time referrals would come my way because I would be known as that person that does online courses. So 100% what you're saying is, is so powerful, and it's worth taking the time to really think about what do I want to be known for.

Speaker C [00:21:48]:
Absolutely.

Speaker B [00:21:49]:
And, and that will evolve over time, you know. I I now talk about passive income because I recognize that, you know, online courses are great, but actually people create online courses because they want to generate that passive income. So things will shift and evolve over time, but you need to kind of allow that space of time to become established under the umbrella of what you do. And I think that's where copywriting can come in and be really powerful for your brand because that's how you can then establish yourself.

Speaker C [00:22:24]:
Oh yeah, for sure. And even though you might be sick of the sound of your own voice with everything you're posting about the same thing, you have to remember that only like between 1% and 5% of your contacts actually see what you post on any one day. So even though you might be posting about the same thing every single day, only a tiny fraction of the people that follow you or are connected to you are going to see it. So they're only going to see it, you know, once a week, maybe if you're lucky.

Speaker B [00:22:52]:
Yeah.

Speaker C [00:22:53]:
So to them, you're not going over the top with repeating the same thing over and over at all. So it's really important to remember that so that you do keep saying the same thing in different words, maybe, but also repurpose things. If you've done a post 3 months ago that is still relevant now, repost it. Nothing wrong with that. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Yeah. And I would also recommend if you have a website, have a blog, because websites with blogs generate on average 126% more leads than websites without blogs. It makes a massive difference.

Speaker C [00:23:31]:
And you're also more likely to rank highly on search engines if you have a blog, because if you have a basic website that say has a homepage and about page and a contact page, You've only got keywords that can be searched for on those 3 pages. As soon as you add a blog and you start building up the number of blog posts you have, each one of those blog posts is going to have its own keyword or phrase. And you can do research to find out what your ideal client is actually searching for and integrate those into your blog post. Do the— write the blog post about those topics, which means then if you've got that key phrase in it, you're more likely to come up on search results and then you'll get more known, more leads. And more business, hopefully. So that would be like my main piece of advice would be have a blog on your website.

Speaker B [00:24:19]:
Yeah, I was going to, I was going to mention that because I— blogging is a really powerful way to become established in what you do. So what would be your tip for somebody getting started who maybe has been thinking about creating a blog for a while what would you say to them? What piece of advice would you give them? So we know from a strategy perspective, it is a really powerful thing to incorporate in your marketing. And obviously the tech, we know there is a little bit of tech there because it needs to be on your website so that it can be found and all of that stuff. But usually, and I see this in my own experience when I built websites for clients, and I would always say to them, you know, you need to have a blog, you need to be talking about the thing that you do. And often there would be a mindset block there because they don't see themselves as being a writer, having those skills. And so that would be an obstacle that would be in their way. So if somebody is listening to this and thinking, right, I get it, I know a blog really is going to make a difference, but I'm not good at writing.

Speaker C [00:25:37]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:25:37]:
What would you say to them?

Speaker C [00:25:39]:
Make a start. You don't have to be an expert in writing. I mean, this is why I set up my membership and my training anyway, because people aren't experts at writing when they run a business necessarily. They're an expert in whatever their field is, you know. But make a start. People are more likely to connect with you if you're being authentic and genuine anyway, you know. So it's, it's like with anything, imperfect action is better than perfect inaction. If you don't do anything, then you're not going to get anything from it.

Speaker C [00:26:11]:
But just make a start, right? If you've got nothing on your website yet, write 3 blog posts before you publish anything, and then publish all 3, um, so that if someone's reading one and they like it, there's 2 others they can still read. Uh, make it easy for people to share, so put share buttons on your blog posts. Um, and you can use the content once you've written one blog post, split it into 3 or 4 social media posts link back to your blog post, and you can put it in a newsletter, you could make it into a podcast, you can make it into a video. When you start with the blog, it can save you so much time because you can repurpose it into so many other things. So the key thing is, like I said, come up with your content pillars because that's your starting point, and choose a topic under each one of those that you're going to write a blog about. Um, and do it about something that either your ideal customer maybe is struggling with, or something that's relevant to your industry at the moment. Or you could do a behind-the-scenes post. So this is me, this is my business, this is why I've started it.

Speaker C [00:27:13]:
Those kind of posts are always really popular.

Speaker B [00:27:16]:
Yeah, I like, I like that. I think what you say about, um, get understanding your audience and their challenges, that's a really good place to start. So what questions are you being asked? Yeah, they're instant blog posts, aren't they? And, um, you know, and, and I think, and I You're right. I think getting a blog post up working for you is going to make your content marketing so much easier. And it is all about— it is massively all about starting, isn't it? You know, it's, it's so difficult sometimes because we have these ideas about, you know, what we want to do and then instantly the tech gets in the way. Oh, I want to do a blog, but I have no idea how to set it up. And that's where you can reach out to experts like Rae who can guide you and to, you know, to kind of get you started. Because you deliver a workshop, don't you? You do a workshop all about blogging.

Speaker C [00:28:11]:
I do indeed. It's literally called Blogging for Your Business.

Speaker B [00:28:15]:
Well, there you go. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:28:17]:
So it's, it's literally all about how to start a blog, how to do the basics of keyword research, how to come up with your content pillars, what the different types of blog posts are, and then using those to come up with your first 12 blog post ideas. So literally by the end of it, you have a year if you're going to be posting one post a month, then you're going to have a year's worth of ideas to start. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:28:42]:
And, and also you can schedule if you're using a platform like WordPress, you can schedule your posts to be published on certain days and times. But also what you were saying about publish 3 posts, blog posts in one go, you can backdate it. So you can say put up 3, but you can, you can do it over the 3 different weeks. So it doesn't all have to be on the same.

Speaker C [00:29:08]:
Yeah. Which looks like you've published them over 3 weeks or 3 months or something, but you've actually put them up at the same time. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:29:15]:
Yeah. Because if you go on to my blog, it looks like on the first of every month I'm really great at publishing a blog. I'm not. I use the day and the time and I do that with my podcast as well. It's like it needs to be at 9 a.m. every Thursday. Yeah. When I, when I, when I distribute the content, it's usually much later than that.

Speaker B [00:29:38]:
But for consistency, consistency, um, it makes me feel better. But, but obviously use those tools to kind of help you so that you're establishing that pattern of distribution, so, so that, you know, you have that consistency. But yeah, I, I think like, like you say, you know, blog posts are, are really powerful. And if you do what I do and you're a podcast host, well, you've got unlimited blog posts.

Speaker C [00:30:06]:
Yeah, absolutely. One of your podcasts you can turn into at least one blog post, if not two or three, depending on, you know, the different things that you're talking about in your, in your podcast.

Speaker B [00:30:17]:
Yeah, yeah. I usually, when I look back at my notes and because I break down, you know, the structure of the episode, I've got at least 3 or 4 blog posts in there because each piece really could actually be a blog on its own. So the content becomes so much easier. Because you've got this hero content that you're creating. For me, it's a podcast, but for somebody else it could be YouTube video or a blog or whatever. But then, like you say, being able to repurpose the content within that and then being able to create other things that, you know, so you'll get you that work that you're putting into creating that piece of content. You are able to maximize the output for a year. You can leverage it.

Speaker B [00:31:05]:
It to your heart's content, you know, to kind of get the most out of it.

Speaker C [00:31:09]:
Absolutely. And as I was saying earlier, there's nothing wrong with reposting things. If you've got a blog post from, say, a year ago, update it and republish it, and then, yeah, you know, do another load of social media posts to go with it. There's nothing wrong with doing that at all.

Speaker B [00:31:25]:
No, no. And like you say, I think people need to see something many times over for it to land with them. And I think that, you know, we can kind of fall into that trap of thinking, oh, people are just going to get fed up and tired of what I'm saying. But they need to keep hearing it because they— the first time they hear it, they may not be in a place where it's, it's landing with them because they're not thinking about it. But the more you show up and the more you share what you do and how you help, then the moment somebody says, you know what, I need that, I need to learn how to blog, blog. Yeah, Rae's going to be that person I'm going to go to.

Speaker C [00:32:02]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:32:02]:
You know, or in my case, you know, the amount of people that say to me, um, I talk about online courses and they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm not ready for an online course yet, you know, I'm, I've got to get my website up, which always makes me chuckle because it's like, you don't, you don't need a, you don't need a website to have an online course. But, but it's a delay tactic. I get it.

Speaker C [00:32:19]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:32:20]:
But then I'll say something or I'll deliver a masterclass and they'll be like, I need to speak to you about online courses, you know, because they're seeing this stuff all the time and it's, it's in the back of their minds. And human psychology, you know, they get to a point where they're like, I need to start generating income that doesn't rely on my time. Oh, and then, and then it's like, right, I'm gonna get in contact with Karen or that. So it, it honestly, like, it, it really does work. So if you are somebody that is sitting on the, on the sidelines and you're having ideas about getting started with creating a blog, creating a course, creating a YouTube, whatever, just take action, get started, and then, and then refine and improve as you move along. But I love what you say about imperfect action. I think, I think that's absolutely spot on.

Speaker C [00:33:08]:
Yeah, you know, exactly. Yeah, you can't wait for perfection because if you do, you'll never get anything done. So, and it doesn't exist.

Speaker B [00:33:15]:
It doesn't exist because it's subjective. What, what is perfect to me is not going to be perfect to you. Yeah. So, so people see things very differently. So this whole idea about perfection and what that means is it's, it's a fallacy, isn't it? It just does not exist and can lead you down rabbit holes where you just end up being stuck all the time. Yeah.

Speaker C [00:33:37]:
And as we were saying earlier, being authentic is so important at the moment. So it's better to just be genuine, put yourself out there, write however you write. Like, yeah, you know, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Um, and if you really want help with it, get a copywriter or get some training or, you know, that kind of thing. You, you can get the support. It is out there. Um, if you are not confident with doing it yourself. But yeah, just try, just try, put something out there, give it a go, just give it a go.

Speaker C [00:34:06]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:34:07]:
I wanted to quickly touch upon email marketing because over the past few episodes I've been speaking about getting started with email marketing because building your list is so incredibly important.

Speaker C [00:34:18]:
It is.

Speaker B [00:34:19]:
It's the one asset in your business that is going to give you that payday because by building a list of subscribers and a list of you've got an audience that is, um, right for you and your business, you— that's where you're going to get the conversions and the sales, especially in the online world if you're presenting offers and, and compelling people to buy. Now, of course, with email marketing, copywriting is quite an important piece of that because it is all about the written word.

Speaker C [00:34:52]:
So what are your thoughts about So it's a good idea to have a sequence of emails for when someone signs up to, say, your mailing list or your newsletter, or if you've got a freebie that they're going to download, that kind of thing. You— it's a good idea to have— it's called a nurture sequence where you have a sequence of emails between 3 and 5 usually that essentially nurture and build the relationship with that person that has just kind of entered your world. So the first one would be kind of a welcome, welcome to my world. And if they've downloaded a freebie or you've offered them a freebie, then having a link to it on that email just in case they couldn't access it, or just as a backup saying, here's your freebie in case you didn't get it, that kind of thing. But it's a good idea to ask them a question and say that, you know, you're going to reply to it. It personally, something that maybe isn't anything to do with business. It could be, you know, where's your favorite place to go on holiday or something, just so you can start a conversation with them and kind of get them away from the automatic side of things almost so that you can start building that relationship and therefore the trust factor with them. Because if they, if they send you a reply and you reply to them, start that conversation, then that shows them that you are actually going to reply to things when they message you.

Speaker C [00:36:24]:
So it starts building up that trust. And then the rest of the sequence basically kind of going through just adding more things. You need to have emails with value in them where you are not trying to sell anything. You are just giving them information and value to do with whatever your business is. So maybe some tips or advice or a bit of strategy, or, you know, depending on what your business is, you can have that in, in one or two of the emails. It's a good idea to have a bit about your story, why you do what you do and what you do, um, in there as well, in probably the second, second or third email, so that they know, get to know you a little bit better. Um, and only add more things that maybe you, you kind of selling to them towards the end of the sequence so that you're building up the relationship and the trust with them first. And then, but don't do a hard sell, never do a hard sell, it doesn't work.

Speaker C [00:37:25]:
So in the last email, just say, by the way, you know, if you're interested in this or you like my emails, you know, I have this offer at the moment, kind of thing. And make sure you always have an unsubscribe as well, just case, because if they're not the right fit for you, what's the point in sending them emails anyway?

Speaker B [00:37:43]:
Yeah, yeah, 100% agree. It's, um, I love the, the thing about stories. I say I think storytelling in emails is really important because they prove it provides context, and I think people need context to understand what you're talking about. And I, I sort of explained it on my, my previous podcast episode that the lead up to my birthday, I had a 5-part email sequencer that I created and I incorporated storytelling within the emails. It was all about getting started with passive income and giving, giving my audience things to really think about and some tips. Now I sold, you know, within the emails and I made sales. It was great. I made sales.

Speaker B [00:38:31]:
However, the thing that I felt was the gold were the responses and the conversations I then had afterwards. And it's when somebody turns around and says, I read your email and it really related to me because I understand what you're trying to say. Yeah, I really felt it. That to me, I think that's when you're on to a winning streak because you're letting people in on not just where you are, your world, but also what's driving you. Why are you doing what you're doing? Yeah. Why is that important? Important? Why do people need to know this? And why are you asking people to shift in their business in order to do the same thing? And I think the more, the more you share— and I'm not talking about, you know, sharing everything, your deepest, darkest secrets. I'm not talking about that. Yeah, but the more you share about why you do what you do and the things that you've had to deal with and the challenges and struggles and all of that, it makes you so relatable.

Speaker B [00:39:40]:
And I think if you can get somebody, you know, you know, like when you're out networking and you deliver a presentation and people are sitting there nodding, it's that kind of response, isn't it? You're making that connection, and that connection is going deeper because rather than reading something and then putting in the trash afterwards, because maybe you might be sharing something that is gonna rock their world and and shift their perspective and get them taking action that then results in a result for them that then leads them to a transformation.

Speaker C [00:40:12]:
Yes.

Speaker B [00:40:12]:
So you're blowing up their world by really supporting and helping them, but yet all you're doing is sharing your story and why you're doing what you're doing. And I think that's the thing that I think people miss.

Speaker C [00:40:26]:
Yeah.

Speaker B [00:40:27]:
Yeah. And, and that's where really good copywriting comes into it. And I'm not talking about really knowing the whole level of skills and, you know, but, but it's talking about things in a certain way, doesn't it, that conveys that emotion and compels people to want to take action.

Speaker C [00:40:44]:
Yeah. And find out more about you as well. Yeah. Even just that, because that, like you said, the whole thing about building up your email list, that's yours then. Anything on social media, that doesn't belong belong to you. You know, if any of the social media platforms could lock out your account tomorrow and you would lose all of your content, all of your contacts, everything. But your email list is yours. You own that.

Speaker C [00:41:07]:
So they can't, you know, that can't be taken away. So it's really important to find a way to get your contacts from social media into your email list through newsletters, freebies, things like that. But then also to nurture those relationships flips through those emails to make sure they stay on your email list. Yeah, if they're the right people for you, of course, because you want them to be your ideal clients. Um, if they've signed up or they've downloaded one of your freebies, they probably are your ideal clients. That's—

Speaker B [00:41:37]:
yeah. And I, and I think one thing that, that must happen is that people take action straight away. So as soon as you have somebody that comes onto your email list you don't wait to send that email. You send it straight away because in a week's time they're going to have forgotten who you are and what they've downloaded. So the moment they download or they sign up and subscribe, that's when you want to start building that connection straight away. And I spoke about this again on my podcast episode last week. It's about remembering that humans are coming into your world. So I know we live in a world world of bots, but you're dealing with humans, and I think you write for a human.

Speaker C [00:42:23]:
Definitely.

Speaker B [00:42:24]:
You know, do you know, like, and have that authenticity within what you're writing.

Speaker C [00:42:29]:
Yeah, for sure. And that's why it's a good idea to have your ideal client in mind when you're writing as well. And that whole thing about narrowing down, like, I meet so many business owners that say, but I can help everyone. It's like, yes, but I'm sure you can help everyone, but who do you ideally want to help? And sometimes that might be more than one person, and that's fine. But you need to narrow down who your ideal client is as much as you possibly can. Like, how old are they? What are their family life? What gender are they? What's their job? What's their income? Whereabouts do they live? Are they in the city? Are they in the country? What are their hobbies? What are their interests? And things like their pain points, their goals, their dreams, their wants, their needs. What things can you tap into that you could help solve some problems for them or make their life easier? And then where do they hang out on social media so you know where to find them is the other thing. But if you can narrow that down, um, I give a grid to my clients for them to fill in with all these things on it to make it easier.

Speaker C [00:43:31]:
And if you've got an existing client who is your ideal client, you can use them as a model. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But once you've got that in mind, and if you've got more than one ideal client, that's fine, do those separately. So you could end up with maybe 3 different ideal clients. Then you can write to them. You can have them in mind when you're writing, and that really helps you to narrow down what you're going to write about, as well as like the tone of voice you're going to use and things like that. For example, if you were an estate agent, your ideal clients might be, um, a young couple looking to get on the property ladder for the first time. Their needs and wants needs are going to be very different from an established family with kids that want to upsize and get a bigger house, and their needs and wants are going to be very different from, say, a retired couple that want to downsize, you know.

Speaker C [00:44:22]:
So if you have those three kind of main ideal clients in mind, they're going to need to know very different information. So you can do emails, blog posts, social media posts that are targeted specifically at each one of those ideal clients. Relevance. So you're giving them the information they need, and not everyone's going to need it. And you could even have different sections on your website, you know, different section categories in your blog posts, that kind of thing, to lead people in the right direction to content that's relevant for them. But it just really helps you if you've got that ideal client in mind to know what to write so that you're addressing their specific specific needs and pain points. And like I said, the tone of voice and everything that you're gonna write in.

Speaker B [00:45:11]:
Yeah, great tips, great tips. Yeah, and I think sometimes people can miss that because they think, this is my audience, they all need to know the same, and I'm going to speak directly to them. And then, and then the messaging just doesn't land because, like you said, they're trying to speak to everybody and not narrow it down. So, so that, that's great. So What I knew— you've given so much today, but what 3 tips would you offer up? So the 3 most important tips that you would offer up to somebody who is either getting started with copywriting, you know, writing in their business, or wants to improve. So maybe they, they've kind of dabbled a little bit, but they're not quite sure if that it's working for them, what would you say? What would you offer up?

Speaker C [00:46:02]:
Um, I'd probably say some of the things I've already said, really. Yeah, make, make a start and just write something and see how it lands. Get feedback. Don't get feedback from friends and family, definitely not family, just because they're not your ideal client. So there's, there's no point asking them. If you go networking, for example, or you've got connections, um, on social media who are your ideal client that you're like friends with as well, ask them or do a poll or that kind of thing online. That's a good way to find out what people actually want to know. But make a start, come up with your brand voice so that you've got your guidelines for yourself as to what kind of tone of voice you're going to have and things you're going to include in that.

Speaker C [00:46:49]:
And like I said, don't reinvent the wheel. Start with easy stuff like behind the scenes, Why do you do this? Why do you do what you do? How did you start your business? Who do you help? Why do you help them? You know, all those kind of things. That's what people want to know, and that shows you are a genuine person. And so that helps build up that whole know, like, trust thing. And just quality and consistency over quantity. So it's more important to write good quality content consistently, whether that— even if that's only once a month or once a week or whatever, but be consistent with the day and time that you're posting. That's more important than lots of content that's rubbish, basically. And don't reinvent the wheel.

Speaker C [00:47:39]:
Start with a blog post, repurpose it into lots of other things.

Speaker B [00:47:44]:
Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Thank you, Rae. Thank you very much for coming on the show today, for for sharing your expertise with us and to provide us with those tips. We've covered, uh, so, so many, um, great things today, and hopefully it will really help my listeners to, to, um, understand more about the role of copywriting as well, because I think that is something as well. When you see a copywriter and you think, yeah, I— it's, it's a nice to and actually in anything we do, whether you're marketing online, marketing offline, whether you're creating, um, marketing material within your business, whatever, the one thing that you really need is really great copy. So it's one of those skills, um, that I think is essential to get right if you're looking to really build your audience and compel them to take action and, and to nurture them as well. So thank you very much for, for sharing those tips.

Speaker C [00:48:48]:
My pleasure. Happy to be here. Thanks for asking me.

Speaker B [00:48:50]:
Great. Thank you.

Speaker A [00:48:53]:
Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. I hope this episode has given you some clarity and sparked some new ideas for your business. If you found it helpful, then please do share it with a friend or a fellow entrepreneur who's building their business online, because because this might be exactly what they need to hear today.

Speaker B [00:49:13]:
I will be back next week with another episode, but until then, have a wonderful week. Thanks for tuning into today's episode of Online Business Uncovered. If today's conversation has sparked an idea or gave you a dose of clarity, then please make sure to check out the show notes for all the links and resources mentioned. New episodes land every Thursday, so hit follow or subscribe to stay in the loop. And if you're loving the show, a quick rating or review goes a long way in helping more brilliant entrepreneurs like you find this show. Until next time, keep showing up, keep sharing your brilliance, and remember, freedom in business is possible, and it starts with taking the next right step. Mm-hmm.