175: You’re NOT selling what you think you’re selling!

What if the thing you think you’re selling isn’t actually what your customers are buying?

In this episode of Online Business Uncovered, I’m joined by Jessica Shales, owner of Ideal Marketing, as part of my special Online Business Growth Summit Speaker Series.

We talk about why marketing can feel so overwhelming for business owners and why the answer isn’t necessarily another platform, algorithm or marketing tactic. Instead, Jessica shares why effective marketing starts much earlier by understanding your customer, the problem you’re solving and most importantly, the real value people get from what you offer.

We also discuss why people don’t really buy online courses, services or digital products... they buy the result, transformation and feeling those things help them achieve. We also explore why adding more to your offer doesn’t always make it more valuable and how simplifying what you sell can actually create a better experience for your customers.

If you’ve ever struggled to explain what makes your offer valuable, wondered why your marketing isn’t connecting or felt overwhelmed by everything you think you should be doing to promote your business, this conversation will help you look at marketing from a completely different perspective.

Jessica will be joining me at the Online Business Growth Summit, where she’ll dive deeper into how to identify the different elements of value within your business and use them to create stronger offers, messaging and marketing.

🎟️ Online Business Growth Summit | 6th–8th October 2026

Join 18+ expert speakers for three days of practical sessions designed to help you create scalable offers, improve your marketing and sales and build a business that gives you more freedom without relying solely on selling your time.

Register for your free ticket or upgrade to the All-Access VIP Pass for lifetime access to the recordings and bonuses - click here

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with another entrepreneur who needs to hear it.

Transcript

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Karen [00:00:02]:
Okay. Hello and welcome to Online Business Uncovered. I'm your host, Karen, and today I am joined by another incredible expert who will be speaking at this year's Online Business Growth Summit. Now, throughout this special series, I'm chatting with our speakers to give you a sneak peek into the knowledge that they're going to be sharing, and more importantly, to help you discover practical ways to build a business that gives you more income, more freedom, and less reliance on selling your time. So let's dive into today's episode. So today I am speaking to Jessica Shales, who is the owner of Ideal Marketing. Jessica, welcome. I'm really excited that you are on the show today.

Jessica Shales [00:00:52]:
Thank you.

Karen [00:00:53]:
Um, do you wanna start by just sharing with my listeners who you are, what you do, um, and, and how you help your audience?

Jessica Shales [00:01:01]:
Absolutely. Well, I've been, I've been working in marketing for about 20 years now, and we— a lot of people find marketing really overwhelming, confusing. There's always so much to do. I really focus on clearing the chaos and connecting people with their customers. So getting back to what are honestly some basics around marketing, um, and getting right into who their customers are and how they care about them. a lot of consumer psychology, behavioral science, all that really interesting stuff. And, and that's how I help people.

Karen [00:01:33]:
Sounds great. I think you're right. I think when people hear the word marketing, because marketing is so broad and it covers so much, you know, so much, it can instantly feel overwhelming. And I think a lot of business owners as well, they've started their business because of the passion that they have for what they do, but quite often they're not marketers. They're having to learn that skill of marketing, which is of course where you come in, isn't it?

Jessica Shales [00:02:00]:
Yeah, it is so overwhelming for a lot of people, not sure what to do. A lot of shoulds. I hear a lot of, oh, I should do this, I should do that, which is not a positive feeling if you're approaching an area feeling responsibility, feeling guilty almost. And it is never-ending. There is an unending amount of time and money that you could spend. So yeah, it feels quite a weight, which is a shame, I think, because it can be exciting, it can be fun.

Karen [00:02:30]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, I think it's one of these things that, um, there's so much that you could be doing, um, you have all the platforms that you, you know, you feel like you should be on, um, and all the things offline, online networking, you know, the latest tactic, all of this stuff, and, and it can really sort of weigh people down, can't it?

Jessica Shales [00:02:54]:
And it's going to get worse. I think there will only be more technologies and more tactics and more algorithm changes and so on and so forth. So, you know, these things aren't going to get simpler. Approaching marketing isn't going to become simpler unless we all take control and make a decision not to be dragged down the technology, you know, what's happening with the LinkedIn algorithm or whatever else, and refocus our efforts back on who we're serving. and what those people care about. And then those tactics become a lot easier. They give you— it gives you permission to filter out a lot of the noise and to focus your efforts where you're most likely to do good and see the needle move. So that's, uh, that's, that's the soapbox that I usually get on.

Karen [00:03:40]:
Yeah, no, I think, I think it's absolutely right, isn't it? I think, I think sometimes, um, and I see this, you know, a lot with sort of my audience and the people that I work with, is that they— and the moment you talk about you know, marketing your product, instantly they go into panic mode because they're thinking 10 steps down the road as opposed to the very first step, which is, like you say, who is your ideal person and what do they need from you and how can you serve them? And it's kind of almost taking them back to basics in terms of what is important.

Jessica Shales [00:04:18]:
Yeah.

Karen [00:04:19]:
And I know the algorithms and all of that, you know, people can get lost in that.

Jessica Shales [00:04:24]:
Yep, absolutely. Well, this is the fundamental, the biggest mistake that I see in marketing is that it is often seen as that last step. So this is day one of, you know, marketing school would be the 4 Ps or the 7 Ps of marketing, right? So 4 Ps is if you've got a product, 7 Ps is if it's a service. So those first 4 Ps are product, price, place, and then promotion. Now, product is the offer. You know, it's exactly what you're providing, and that's often not thought of as a marketing function. Often the product or the service or the offering is created because somebody gets an idea or they copy a competitor, or it's a known service like being an accountant or something like that. And there isn't so much thought at that point from a marketing perspective.

Jessica Shales [00:05:18]:
The price is decided, the place, as in distribution, or how on a— how that is provided, that's decided. And then you get a marketer involved when you get to promotion and expect them to, I don't know, create a LinkedIn campaign or, or some videos and stick a hashtag on it. A lot of the time it's putting lipstick on a pig because the product hasn't been thought with a marketer involved in it or with your marketing hat on it. Um, so yeah, and you just end up spending so much more money trying to get more attention for a product or an offering that is not honestly made with the customer in mind.

Karen [00:05:55]:
Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:05:55]:
If you've got a marketing personal perspective, at least when you're creating the offer, it's so much cheaper to do what we consider to be the promotional element. That gets easier because it speaks for itself, or the quality is good enough that, you know, you don't have to work so hard on that promotional element. And for any of those who are providing a service, those final 3 Ps are physical evidence, which sneaks in there as a P, which people forget about. So that's services are often intangible, so having a brochure, having your, um, officers, you know, those sorts of things, that's your physical evidence.

Karen [00:06:32]:
Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:06:33]:
People, because if you're delivering a service, those people need to be in line with your brand, in line with— that is, that is what you're offering. And then the final one is, um, processes, because if you're providing a service and you want to do that repeatedly to the same level of quality and be able to say things about it, you need some good processes. processes in place to make sure that that is done to the same level again and again and again sustainably and repeatedly. Does that make sense?

Karen [00:07:03]:
Yeah, absolutely, 100%. I would also say actually you could put processes in digital products as well because the way people sell, because sometimes I think that people think that it's just about making money. So I create a digital product and then I sell it and I make money and then that's where it ends. But actually it's the systems and processes that sit behind what doing that determines whether your customer gets an exceptional experience or not. And sometimes I think that can kind of be forgotten. Anytime somebody comes into contact with your brand, whether it's a service, whether it's a digital product, you need to be presenting something that really defines who you are, what you're about, and why you're different and why they should be buying from you or working with you. And I think, and I think that then, like you say, comes down to the processes you have and how you then pull that together.

Jessica Shales [00:08:03]:
I would put your digital stuff under the, under a service, I think. I think, I think 7 Ps is most relevant. I'd say that.

Karen [00:08:13]:
Yeah, I think so. I think so. And I, and I agree with you regarding what your comment about, or what you were sort of saying about, you know, people thinking about the promotional aspect at the end. I know when I work with my clients in creating anything, be it a course or a membership or whatever, When we're building it out and we're defining the audience and what it does and how it serves, often I, I, I, we start with the end in mind and how we're going to communicate this to those people. So as we're building out all of that information before we even get started on the product, we're nailing certain aspects of it because we're thinking down the road about the messaging and how we're going to present it and how it's going to be positioned and what, what we need to communicate in order to get that connection with the right people. So I think what you're saying, because I see, I've had lots of conversations with people that have said, I've got an online course and it doesn't sell, and it's because they've often given no thought as to, you know, how they're going to sell it.

Jessica Shales [00:09:19]:
Possibly the wrong way around, like based on what they could do rather than what somebody's interested in getting, or, you know, with those two things. Interesting.

Karen [00:09:29]:
Yeah, and often, and I know another sort of like mistake on sort of my side with what I do see is often people will make assumptions as to what they believe is the truth as opposed to actually validating it with their ideal person before they build it.

Jessica Shales [00:09:47]:
Yeah.

Karen [00:09:48]:
And because that often then gives you the insight and the information needed to be able to then promote it in the right way. Because then you can marry up your messaging to what people need, and that often gets missed. It's like, this is what I want to create because this is what I think people need. And often that then becomes the sort of the challenge, isn't it?

Jessica Shales [00:10:13]:
Absolutely.

Karen [00:10:15]:
You know, so yeah, I think with marketing, I think it's such a complex area.

Jessica Shales [00:10:21]:
Part of what can make it quite complex as well is I think it's absolutely valid to ask people what they want, but a lot of the time, they also may not know. It doesn't mean that you can't go through the process of asking or theorizing and then testing it. There's this famous quote by Henry Ford where he said, if I'd have asked— this is the creator of Ford Motor Cars— he said, if I'd have asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse, because they didn't know what was possible.

Karen [00:10:53]:
Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:10:53]:
And that's the reality. But there are ways to kind of figure out and put yourself in people's shoes. And honestly, testing behavior is just the most reliable way to test your ideal customer because we will rationalize a lot of how we behave in ways that aligns with our identity and who we'd like to think that we are. So research often is a little bit of asking and a little bit of just seeing how people behave when they're offered something. because behavior is the most reliable form of market research, I'd say.

Karen [00:11:31]:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's interesting because I don't think people often see the validation stage as part of that marketing piece.

Jessica Shales [00:11:43]:
No, and there's some interesting things that will come out where I think a lot of people don't realize actually what they're selling. So they think that they're selling X, but actually what somebody is buying might be Y, and it can create some real disconnection and frustration. An example, people talk about you should sell benefits, not features. So you hear this all the time, and an example is a drill. Like, you, if you buy a drill, you don't want the drill, you want the hole in the wall. I'd say that isn't going far enough because nobody just wants a hole in the wall. Okay, they want shelves. And the reason why they want shelves is so that they can feel like that independent woman who can do stuff for herself and doesn't have to pay someone to come in, or the reliable partner that does what is asked of them in good time, or whatever else it is, whatever identity or thing that they want to feel as a result of having a drill.

Karen [00:12:40]:
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Shales [00:12:41]:
Nobody just wants a hole in the wall. They want something, they want a feeling afterwards. And I think it's going far enough. with your messaging that someone goes, yeah, that's how I want to feel. This is, this is, this is what I want.

Karen [00:12:57]:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think when you can get somebody nodding their head and, you know, kind of that conversation then kind of continues, then I think, you know, I think, I think that can be really quite powerful. That's, that's when, you know, I think when you're on the right tracks.

Jessica Shales [00:13:17]:
I think you can almost see something clicking behind somebody. I've seen it a few times where you're explaining something and you almost see a click happen behind the eyes where somebody thinks this is, yeah, just, uh, you almost spot it physically that there is this physiological response to how your offer supports.

Karen [00:13:41]:
Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:13:42]:
how they want to, what, how they feel now and what they want to feel.

Karen [00:13:46]:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. 100%. 100%. I, it's interesting, isn't it? Because when, you know, when people create something and then they're selling, you know, like I say to sort of my clients and my members, you know, nobody wants an online course. So if you're creating a course, nobody wants your online course. They want the results. They want the transformation. They want, like you say, they want that feeling of whatever you're giving them.

Karen [00:14:13]:
They don't want the online course. And it's interesting, I go networking as do you, and then people say, buy my online course. And it's like, yeah, nobody's gonna buy your online course because it doesn't, it doesn't say to them what they're gonna get. It doesn't— how's your course gonna help me and what's it gonna give me and what am I gonna walk away with and how's it gonna play out in my life and all of this stuff. But this is where, like what you're talking about, you know, really understanding your audience and their behaviors and what they're looking for and how you can show up and serve them in a way that really really does speak to their hearts and give them what they need. I think, you know, kind of it sort of takes your, your marketing to the next level, doesn't it?

Jessica Shales [00:14:52]:
This is the online course is the delivery method for the first 4 people.

Karen [00:14:55]:
Yeah, it's the vehicle.

Jessica Shales [00:14:57]:
Yeah, it is the place, if that makes sense. So putting that as the focus is— I understand why it's done, but really it is just the delivery mechanism. And with it comes maybe convenience. Maybe comes flexibility, maybe comes some other benefits, but it's not the most important element of value. It's not the most, it's not what someone's buying on. You're completely right. They're buying maybe on peace of mind. It depends on what it is.

Jessica Shales [00:15:27]:
It might be feeling part of a club. It could be so many different elements of value. And if you've done the work to understand what that value is, it gets it a lot, it makes it a lot easier to really connect with your customers.

Karen [00:15:44]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think if you can kind of get to that place where you just know your people inside out, you know, so you can meet them where they're at and then create something that really gives them what they need, I think that's when you kind of get that shift. So you sort of said one of the biggest mistakes is obviously people sort of focusing more on the algorithms and all of that. Do you find that with your clients and the people you work with, they come to you and that's where their head's at? What platform should I be on? Should I be on LinkedIn? Should I be on Facebook? Is that kind of where their mindset is?

Jessica Shales [00:16:26]:
Yeah, a lot of the time somebody will almost self-diagnose the how to— so it's almost like, you know, when you go to the doctor and you've Googled what's wrong with you and it's normally not positive, you know.

Karen [00:16:37]:
It—

Jessica Shales [00:16:38]:
that kind of thing happens where someone's sure that SEO is what they need, or a new website or whatever. So that is often— that's when they talk to marketers and try and get some quotes together. That, that I've seen that quite a lot of the time. At that point, I usually ask why, and we get into a bit more of a conversation. It's also— I always say the people I'm looking for are the ones who have been spending money on marketing and are just a bit confused and fed up and not really feeling like they're going, you know, they're going in the right direction and they are ready to go back to some basics and to understand more thoroughly, then they're kind of perfect for that reason. Some people, don't get me wrong, they've just decided SEO is the solution and there's not that much that they're willing to explore beyond that. But most people, once you start asking some questions and start delving a little bit deeper, they're on board because it's not just about marketing, it's about sales, it's sometimes about operations as well. Because if you know exactly what value you provide, then you can cut out all the fluff that you might have felt was necessary.

Jessica Shales [00:17:48]:
Really, business is an exchange of value. That's the purest definition I found, is business is an exchange of value. And if you can understand value, which is a subjective experience, don't get me wrong, but if you can understand value, then you can understand what to invest in and where to optimize that value and where the opportunities lie. But you can also understand what to remove, what is just bulk. If you forget about the employees, the property, the offices, and all the rest of it, and just come down to value and it helps explain why somebody buys from you and you can optimize that.

Karen [00:18:31]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's interesting, isn't it, that, you know, people don't just hand over their money for nothing. It's often because they're looking for something, they're solving something. And I think as business owners, entrepreneurs, service providers, often we are We're here to serve and we are also problem solvers. So then it's like looking at those problems, you know, what's that problem you are solving? And I've seen it where, where things just get so overcomplicated that they forget that, you know.

Jessica Shales [00:19:09]:
Yeah. And but there's also, I think it's picking up, look at the people around you and the competition and what they're doing. You know, we're social beings. We just go, oh, well, I feel like I should be doing that because other people are. And a lot of the businesses that have really pulled ahead in the last few years, the ones that end up being the subject of case studies, and particularly in the US, of case studies and examples of how to do business, is because they've been brave enough to reject what their category normally does and do things a little bit differently. There's this great example in America of the Savannah Bananas, who are a baseball team. And they weren't doing that well financially. You know, business, it is a sport of, a business of sport.

Jessica Shales [00:19:55]:
And what they decided to do was, in order to increase ticket sales, was they made the games a spectacle. And it wasn't so much about even being that good at baseball, which it feels like an incredible thing to say, but they made it such a family-friendly event where people were dancing and everyone was really involved. So, more and more people wanted to go with their whole family, which includes, you know, if you're taking the whole family, that's more ticket sales. And they started financially to do very well as a business. They're still not the best baseball team, but they are doing— but financially, they're doing well because they provide value. Now, that value is a little bit different. It's more about fun and perks than it is about, you know, maybe some other thing. I'm just trying to think actually what it would be.

Jessica Shales [00:20:37]:
Entertainment is probably the thing.

Karen [00:20:38]:
Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:20:39]:
Still entertaining, but it's also fun. It's also a lot more enjoyable. So, all of a sudden, there's this additional value that people pay for, and it's such an experience to have together. And it's just by rejecting this category or this category assumption, which is that you must be good, that you must actually be good at baseball. So yeah, that's an interesting example.

Karen [00:21:03]:
It's interesting actually, because I think some of the entrepreneurs that are really crushing it in the online space, it's not because that they have the best product or that, you know, they have everything, you know, they're just doing brilliantly at every area. It's often because they have that understanding. They know exactly what it is that their people want and the value that they bring, and then they've learned to communicate it in a way that attracts their audience. So it isn't always about being the best.

Jessica Shales [00:21:39]:
And, you know, often it takes courage to identify what you're not going to do. In order to do what you do very well, sometimes you have to also say, but in order to do that well, I'm gonna not be too concerned about these other things because they're fluff, because they're distractions, because they're not worth it. Do you know what I mean? So apparently, I haven't been to America, but Trader Joe's is an example of this where they don't really do. They've got— they're quite unique. They have got their own branded products. They don't really do shelving. It's always a little bit different. And there's a lot of category assumptions for what is retailers or shopping that isn't there.

Jessica Shales [00:22:20]:
So yeah, I think that's sometimes a struggle, but we have to be willing to sometimes not do something, even though most people—

Karen [00:22:29]:
Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:22:29]:
They've done studies on this actually, where if you are asked to improve something, a lot of the time we will add. We will add to it to improve it. Whereas occasionally or frequently, the solution would be to remove something, to simplify. And you get this with books where you can have ebooks, for example, where, or someone writes a book and they feel like, oh, I need to make it at least, I don't know, 750 pages in order to charge people money. Well, is that really misunderstanding what somebody values? If you can get a message across that is going to change somebody's life in less pages so that they can get it more quickly and turn it into something practical, that is infinitely more valuable than taking up their precious time with your extra pages. So do it in 250 instead of 750. You know, it's counterintuitive, but it's often what's needed.

Karen [00:23:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you say that because I have a lot of conversations with, with obviously my members about when they're creating their offers, their products, and the temptation will be to go big. You know, this course needs to be 18 modules, 20 lessons, loads of resources, all of that. And it's trying to kind of get it across that less is more, less is always more, and simple wins. Because at the end of the day, you want people to finish, you want people to take on board what it is that you're delivering and take action, and they can't do that when they're in overwhelm.

Jessica Shales [00:24:14]:
Yeah.

Karen [00:24:15]:
So sometimes we, because we know so much about all the things that we're, you know, we're we're teaching, we want to kind of really load things up. But actually stripping things away, like what you're saying, I think is often the best approach because then it keeps things simple, succinct, to the point. And that's what people— because there's too much noise. You know, people can go online and they can read and watch videos and listen to podcasts and do like— there's so much noise online. But actually, if you want to get somebody to a place where they get a result, Taking them through a very simple process with no fluff is going to be far more effective than, like you say, kind of adding all of that extra stuff in, which often is not needed. So I agree with you there. Yeah.

Jessica Shales [00:25:08]:
I think it's completely natural, but yeah, it is worth spending the time to assess what is honestly needed. And most important for your, your audience and put yourself in their shoes.

Karen [00:25:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. That's great advice, you know, because I do think sometimes we forget that we're dealing with other humans. Yes. Um, you know, when you're building a business. Yeah, that's it. Absolutely. So, so yeah, so, so obviously we are going to be, um, delivering the Online Business Growth Summit, which I'm super excited about.

Karen [00:25:47]:
Um, and it is all about helping entrepreneurs, um, and business owners and businesses create something that doesn't rely on their time. Um, it's kind of building that income beyond their time. Um, because as you and I both know that we were, we come across a lot of people that really don't have anything that they can sell if they're not selling their service. So, so this whole summit is about what, what they can do in order to kind of build more freedom into their business. Um, and obviously the area that you're in is, is such a brilliant space for this because it's, it's creating really valuable assets that they can use and leverage to, to kind of reach their audience and all of that. Um, but, but how can, like, in what you do, how does that help somebody create that freedom?

Jessica Shales [00:26:41]:
Well, what the, the area that I'm talking about at the summit is value. We're going into this in more detail because, like I said, it is a really subjective experience. It's very difficult to know what is going on in somebody's head, but there are frameworks to help you, almost like a checklist, identify the most common elements of value. And once you understand products and services in those terms, everything else becomes a lot easier. So the framework that we're gonna go over it's so foundational and it makes sales easier, it makes marketing easier, you know, the messaging, deciding who you're talking to and where, but particularly how to make sure you're playing the right game in business. So value comes in many different forms. One is functional value, which might be just around, um, just ticking a box and doing a job. So it's saving some time, it's reducing risk for you, it's maybe helping to organize some stuff.

Jessica Shales [00:27:39]:
But if you stay in a functional game, you are joining a kind of a race to the bottom because there's gonna be other people like you who are doing, providing that same functional value, and it ends up coming down to cost, right? If you think in terms of cars, you know, you're looking with the lower end of the, you're looking at maybe a Clio or a, you know, something just a bit of a runabout, right? If, however, you want to play more of an emotional game, which is more about building a brand, reducing anxiety, making somebody feel positive because they like the design and aesthetics. This isn't problem solving. This is providing value, a value that somebody's not necessarily asking for, but is actually willing to pay more for because it makes them feel something. And we are such emotional beings. So once you play a more remote— once you start to appeal to people on an emotional level, they can charge more money. And legitimately, because you are making somebody, you know, feel better. But there's also ways that you can provide value in a way that changes their life or does something quite aspirational. And that's a pull.

Jessica Shales [00:28:49]:
So doing this work intentionally at the beginning of your journey means that right from the beginning, you can build an offering that it's easier to command a higher price point for, but also you get to have a more positive impact on more people. That makes sense.

Karen [00:29:07]:
Yeah, it does. It does. And I love that because absolutely, I think sometimes people devalue actually a lot of what they offer. Um, and, and like you say, they become a commodity because they're competing on price against their competitors. And I think what you're talking about is kind of sort of seeing what you do from a very different perspective in terms to what it's actually delivering. And sometimes we can't we, we don't realize exactly what it is that we're actually delivering because we can't see the wood for the trees. Um, you know, so, um, yeah, I think this is going to be a great session. Um, I'm really excited to share it.

Karen [00:29:52]:
Yeah, definitely, because I don't think there's enough conversation around value and, and what that actually means in business. Um, so, so no, I think that'll be a great session. Um, so obviously you're going to be, um, delivering your framework. Is there anything that you are, um, going to be sort of, sort of providing in terms of, um, resources or anything like that? Or people— should people just rock up with notepad and, and pen and, and, you know?

Jessica Shales [00:30:26]:
Yeah, there'll be They'll walk away with a deeper understanding of exactly how to identify their own value and to fine-tune potentially what they're offering and to adapt things so that it really works for who they're talking to. And at the end of it as well, there will be an invitation to join an— it's a service along the same lines that might be helpful if they want, but If not, everyone will walk away understanding something that I feel is so fundamental to doing well in business and is really, really helpful.

Karen [00:31:06]:
Yeah, no, that sounds great. So before we finish, I've just got some, just some quick questions. Are you a coffee or tea drinker?

Jessica Shales [00:31:18]:
Coffee. Iced coffee at the moment.

Karen [00:31:21]:
I stopped at yours because I've forgotten mine. What's the one business book you think every entrepreneur should be reading?

Jessica Shales [00:31:30]:
Uh, it's a book by Jonathan Stark called Hourly Billing Is Nuts, and it's about how professional services in particular, if anyone's coming from that kind of hourly billing place, coming over to something obviously to this, to this area that you're talking about, which is so much more scalable, then it it just makes sense to them. They're already on board, you know, they're coming along to the summit, um, but it explains why that whole area is— it is nuts. Hourly billing is nuts. So it's absolutely brilliant.

Karen [00:32:00]:
Yeah, I've not heard about that book, so, um, yeah, that's definitely one I think to sort of check out. Um, what's the one tool or app that you couldn't run your business without?

Jessica Shales [00:32:11]:
I say ClickUp. Most of my tasks and hourly, like, and the hourly tracking, uh, even though we don't do hourly billing, the tracking and knowing what I'm doing, that's all there, my dashboards, all in ClickUp.

Karen [00:32:22]:
Yeah, amazing. What's the one piece of business advice that you have received that, that you just think is absolutely the best?

Jessica Shales [00:32:34]:
So right when I took over the company, I sat down with my tutor from university and we caught up and he said at the time, Vic Davies his name is, he said, make sure you have time to think, to sit down and consider what's been going on and where you're moving, because otherwise you just go on autopilot and carry on the way that you have been. Don't question what's happening, whether it still needs to happen, and it just makes you into a busy fool. So that's, um, it hasn't always been easy to follow the advice, but it is the single best piece of advice, I'd say.

Karen [00:33:07]:
Yeah, that's great advice. Um, in one sentence, what does building an online business mean to you?

Jessica Shales [00:33:16]:
Less busyness and more business, I'd say. It's a phrase that I've had in my head for a long time. I think since Vic said that. It means walking that talk because the world that I come from is very much service-based. You're selling your time in order to implement something for somebody else, but you don't get the time to think about the impacts that you could be having on honestly just more people. So that's, that's the great thing with, um, this kind of business is you can, you can have a more positive impact on more people whilst also having a better life yourself. Space for more business, less busyness is really what it means for me.

Karen [00:33:57]:
Brilliant. Yeah, absolutely love that. Yeah, and you're spot on, you know, it is about impact. And I think people start a business because they want to make a difference. And, you know, building this business, um, in this way, not only is it scalable, but like you say, it creates that impact. for your audience, but also for yourself as well. Thank you, Jessica. It's, it's been absolutely brilliant today.

Karen [00:34:22]:
Thank you very much for coming on to the podcast.

Jessica Shales [00:34:24]:
Thank you.

Karen [00:34:26]:
If you have enjoyed this conversation, then you're going to love the Online Business Growth Summit because this is just a small taste of what is to come. Alongside today's guest, you'll hear from over 18 incredible experts covering everything from digital products marketing, sales, visibility, audience growth, and so much more. And it's all designed to help you build income beyond selling your time. Now, to get your free ticket, head on over to www.sellyourbrillianceonline.com. 

You can register there for free, um, or you can upgrade to the all-access VIP pass, which is currently only £27. This will be £197 at the event. Um, I thank you, Jessica, once again. I will, you know, look forward to the next episode of Online Business Uncovered.

Karen [00:35:22]:
Thank you for joining me and have a wonderful day.

Jessica Shales [00:35:25]:
You too. My privilege. Thanks.