UCLA LiveWell
Dr. Wendy Slusser of UCLA's Semel Healthy Campus Initiative Center interviews leading experts about new perspectives on health and wellbeing. LiveWell champions an interdisciplinary and intersectional approach to health equity-- from food and climate, to social justice and emotional wellbeing.
With guests like Evan Kleiman, Peter Sellars, and Bob Thurman, we've set out to explore the many facets of what it means to live well.
Stop by our website to offer feedback or guest ideas, plus more to explore: https://www.healthy.ucla.edu/media/livewellpodcast/
UCLA LiveWell
86: The Power of Communication, Leadership and Lifelong Learning with Dr. Angela Fentiman
Our latest episode of LiveWell is a conversation with Dr. Angela Fentiman. An educator and executive communications leader at UCLA, where we explore how an early introduction to communication in service and civic duties, then roles in energy and education shaped her approach to communication and leadership. From writing speeches for her father, a small-town mayor in Oregon, to managing narratives during utility and infrastructure outages, Dr. Fentiman shares the moments that defined her voice, and the lessons she shares with students and colleagues.
We discuss:
- Her early exposure to public service and speechwriting
- What it means to lead with curiosity, empathy and clarity
- Approaches to crisis management and what’s at the core of every situation
- Her dissertation on women in executive political roles
- Why foundational skills like emotional intelligence and interpersonal communication are essential for today's leaders
- The connection between living well and leading well
Whether you're a professional communicator, an aspiring leader or simply someone who values thoughtful conversation, this episode will leave you inspired to speak—and live—with intention.
Listen now and subscribe for more stories that elevate purpose-driven leadership.
Visit our website to explore other episodes, suggest guests, offer feedback, or invite Wendy to be a guest on your podcast!
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What's your level of sponginess? How do we communicate to inspire us to turn ideas into action? In today's conversation, Dr. Angela Fentiman shares how as a communicator, she is most effective when she provides the facts with compassion. Today we will hear advice on how to communicate effectively during a crisis, or you might hear about how to engage journalists who are not experts in the subject you're reporting on. From her early days writing her father's mayoral speeches, her love of writing poetry and how attending city council meetings fostered her love of public comments, Dr. Fentiman's path has led her to focus her research on women in executive leadership and to be the director of the Communications and Creative Services for UCLA's Teaching and Learning Center. I'm delighted to have Angela Fentiman, who recently received her doctorate in education, as my guest today. Big Congratulations, Dr Fentiman, and thank you for listening. Welcome, Dr. Angela --- almost Dr Angela Fentiman. We're so grateful you're part of this podcast today, and what a treat to talk to one of my favorite people here at UCLA. So, hi
Angela Fentiman:Hi, Wendy. Thank you so much for having me there.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Thank you. That really makes me feel and you know, I often say, if Wendy asked me to do it, I just show up. So here I am, and I'm really excited to chat with you. good and I'm very grateful for that.So you know, you have a very eclectic path to where you are now, which is working for the Teaching Learning Center and I'd love to know what led you to this path where you are not only interested in the educational world, but also you practice communication and your communication skills.
Angela Fentiman:Yeah, it was not a straight path, for sure. It was a winding one, and I think it was one where I really kind of looked at the opportunities that were in front of me and decided whether they felt right or didn't, and if it moved me, in the long term, closer to where I felt like I wanted to go. Maybe there was some meandering and some adventure in that, but I thinkwhere the teaching and the communication come in is really throughout my 20 year career as a communicator. I've really approached communication as an educator, and what I mean by that is I've worked in a lot of fields that are not the sexy, flashy, sports, entertainment, consumer product marketing. I'veworked in energy, infrastructure, water, renewable energy --- and while that gets a little sexier for some people, it's still not the type of sort of flashy communication that people pay attention to. They only really pay attention when something's wrong or not working, but I think overall that's made me a stronger communicator and a better communicator because I have to figure out how to get people's attention when they don't care, and maybe even help them care a little bit, or understand why they should care, and I think that teaching and communication, in that sense, go hand in hand. When you think about yourself as an educator in the role of a communicator, it does bring that sort of pedagogical teaching mentality to the conversation and to the approach, That's really been my approach as a communicator, and so the teaching part just felt natural, although I did sit in some of my communications classes or even any of my classes during undergrad and think about how I would teach the class. So I guess the seed was planted long before I even realized it and I do have to say to my advisor as an undergraduate, who actually later hired me for one of my first teaching jobs, told me as an undergraduate that if I got a master's degree, to call her and I could come back and adjunct for her, and then eventually, not too many years later, I did complete a master's degree and ended up coming back and teaching at Cal Lutheran, where I went to undergrad --- which was a really special experience to be able to actually teach in classrooms. I had taken classes as an undergrad. I could tell students, "I have literally sat where you are sitting. I've taken this class before. This is what I thought was valuable. This is what I took away, and then this is how I was able to use that in my career."That was kind of a special full circle moment too, with the teaching and the communication space,
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:What I'm hearing you say, especially in this last vignette you described, is how well you can share stories that then engage people in listening, and there's a couple of subject areas that you brought up just now when you described how you've come to this work of teaching and communications. I'd like to have you describe a story that you shared with me about your upbringing and how your dad was in politics and you wrote his speeches for him when you were in high school. How was that like? How did that start? How did you get interested in that part?
Angela Fentiman:Yeah, it was interesting how that all started. When I was in early elementary school, I was probably six or seven years old when my dad was first elected to City Council, and then shortly after that, it was a weak mayor system, so the mayor was elected by the council and so he became mayor. Over the course of his career, he was on council for 26 years and mayor for 14 of those years.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:And this is in Oregon?
Angela Fentiman:This is a very small town in Oregon, and as a small child, I was ecstatic. I was a very oddly politically aware child, somewhat because of him, somewhat just because of the person that I came out as.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:What was his platform?
Angela Fentiman:This is the funny thing about his political career is that he's never campaigned. Once in his life, he put his name on the ballot. It was a small town, enough people knew him, and he got elected every time. He never lost an election and he never campaigned. It's so funny because I was actually talking to him on my drive in to campus today, and they've changed the structure in town now, and they're electing the mayor by popular vote. He and my mom were joking that if he ran again, he'd probably win, because people really didn't want him to retire when he retired.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:How many years out?
Angela Fentiman:He was on city council for 26 and he was mayor for 14 of those. It was probably about a decade ago that he retired from that because in a small town, you have a full time job and you serve right? That's not your full time job. So anyway, he never campaigned, but he always got elected. He was always very popular. He was always also just very matter of fact and he was also an insurance agent, and people would just come to his office to talk about city stuff. You know, it was open. It was on a main street in town. They just walk in to, you know, yell at him about something they were mad about, and he would always tell people, "I'm always going to do what I think is best for the city. If you don't agree with me, it's within your right and power to vote me out. Don't elect me if you don't like what I'm doing, or if you don't agree with me that what I'm doing is best for the city." Essentially, that was his platform. I do what I think is best for my community and if you don't like me, don't vote for me, which I think is the dream for a lot of people who aspire for public service. I mean, really for the people that we want to aspire for public service, but that was always his stance. He was always going to do what he felt was right, what he felt was the best thing for the community, and you were completely allowed to disagree with him and not vote for him. That was your right, and that was your decision, but people kept electing him, so he must have been doing something right.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:What is he most proud of that he did
Angela Fentiman:There were a lot of things. I think the one for the city? thing that really stands out to me, though, is they built a new water treatment plant while he was mayor. This was around 2008 so I had already left home. I was living down here. I was getting more and more involved in kind of the public service and the political world of Los Angeles at the time, and I think I had recently toured. This is a little side thing about me. I love touring water treatment facilities and different types of Public Works facilities. I think as part of a leadership program I was doing, I had just toured some Pasadena water facilities or something like that. I was coming home for the holidays and for Christmas, and I asked him if he would take me on a tour. So, I got a private tour of the new water treatment facility from the mayor, and it was really special too, because on the building was the plaque with his name being that he was the mayor that that got built and developed under. So, it was just really cool to see, you know, we took selfies along the tour,pictures of the plaque, and everything like that, so that was really special. He really has an extensive legacy in the community of different lives that he's touched and people that he's impacted. I don't know if he would say that was his biggest accomplishment, though. He would probably pick something like really personal that maybe he hasn't even told me before of some individual he helped. He would have young people on their way to job interviews stop by his office to help him tie their tie on the way to a job interview.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Oh my gosh.
Angela Fentiman:Yeah, I like to say he was kind of like the Andy Griffith of Mayberry.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:That is so cool. How did you write his speeches? How did you figure out what to say?
Angela Fentiman:Yeah, I don't actually remember how it happened. I loved writing as a kid. I loved writing. I loved poetry. I was always, you know, excelled in writing courses in school and enjoyed it. There was a certain point where I think my parents just felt that I was a better writer than they were, and so instead of me asking them to read my writing, they would ask me for advice on things. So, because I was interested in speeches and speech writing, I would help him write his speeches, or there would be some document that he'd asked me to proofread or look over that was related to something public that they were talking about at a city council meeting. I also got dragged to a lot of city council meetings during the time where I still needed a babysitter. So rather than having a babysitter, just take your kid to the city council meeting and let them sit in the back. So to this day, I still love public comment.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:That's great, and how about your favorite speech that you wrote for him?
Angela Fentiman:That's an easy one, actually. That's actually a really easy question. This was actually when I was in college, and he had to give a Memorial Day speech. It was a few years, maybe, probably not more than five, six years after my grandfather had passed away, who served in World War Two. I was able to work his father, my grandfather, into that Memorial Day speech and remembering those who had served our country, and being able to speak about that connection to service. It ended up being an incredibly moving speech. He had a lot of people in tears. He had a lot of people who came up and said something to him after they had been particularly touched by certain parts, and that was one of the first speeches to where I think I really started to understand the use of personal narrative in speech making and putting that into practice. That is still, I think, one of my favorite speeches.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So your interest in public works, like water treatment plants, translated to a job you had, and you use some personal stories or personal narratives in that to help share the issues around when a gas is OFF or ON or whatever. Can you share that with me? Because that, to me, blends all this interest that you just described. You have this utility interest, the speech writing personal narrative.
Angela Fentiman:So I was serving in a spokesperson role, and that meant that I was part of a 24 hour on call rotation, and I would have to deal with any sort of, essentially, gas related emergency that happened at any time of the day. There was an on call rotation, so it wasn't constant, but there was a week where you were on and then you'd get a break. I think what this really does is it goes back to my approach to communication as thinking about it as an opportunity to educate, especially during that time. This was when newspaper reporters and media outlets were sort of first starting to move away from having really dedicated beat reporters. What would happen is, some of these gas issues would happen, and you'd get a call from a reporter who didn't really understand gas infrastructure. You know, it's not like you had an energy reporter who was calling you to talk about it. It was just a person who was sort of on the assignment desk and got this call and had to figure it out.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:And that's what a beat reporter is, is someone who has a expertise in an area?
Angela Fentiman:Right. Exactly, yeah, they have a certain sort of topic or area that they cover very thoroughly, and so they tend to know a lot about the topic, and they they have a lot of background.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:And that's basically gone now?
Angela Fentiman:For the most part, you do have a handful of folks who are still around, but as newsrooms have shrunk, people have had to take on a lot of different assignments. You still get that at some of your larger papers, but at smaller publications, you don't really have that focus anymore. And when I say large, I'm talking like global and national. So what I would do is I would get these calls from folks who really didn't understand anything about natural gas, or the system, or how it worked, anything like that. And so I would take that opportunity, when I had their attention, to educate, because there was value in it for them. They could tell a better story. They could understand the situation. And I never had a reporter in that time who wasn't willing to listen to provide context. And it only took another, you know, maybe 20 minutes or so in the grand scheme of the conversation. But what it really did is it set us up as an organization wanting to be more approachable, more personable. I was a human that was helping out another human. You know, we're both doing our jobs together. And so there were a couple of situations, but I would always take a step and back and provide context. And there was one particular call where I was on call. The call came in about a building that the gas had been shut off. They were trying to understand, it had been off for a while, and I knew nothing about the situation when they called. But what I was able to do is I was able to say,"listen, I can't speak to this particular situation, but I can take a step back and tell you a little bit about how the system works, and that there are two sides of a gas meter, there's the customer side and there's the company side. And we take care of things that are on the company side and the things that are on the customer side of the meter. If there's a damage or something that happens there, the customer repairs it, we need to shut off the gas, and we can't turn on the gas until that repair takes place," just to providecontext. And what I did by providing context was the reporter immediately now understood the situation. And it wasn't, "oh, big bad company blaming someone." It was ,"oh, I have a better understanding of how the system works. I actually think I know what's going on now." That whole situation was a potentially bad story that turned out the best. We actually had on the local news, a customer saying, "oh, the gas company didn't do anything wrong. They're just trying to keep us safe." And so the landlord was trying to blame us, but because I had initially taken the time to educate the reporters and taken the time and not just put up a wall like,"oh, I can't talk about this. I can't talk about that." And of course, I checked with our claims people. I made sure I wasn't saying anything that wasn't allowed or that would potentially create a risk down the road. But what I was doing was I was setting up a situation where the reporter could trust me, that I was going to give them accurate information and not just close off. What I don't know is if that's still effective 10 years later, because the dynamics have changed a little bit even more so since then in working with reporters, sometimes especially in crisis situations. And so I can't say for sure that that would be as effective today as it was then. There were a couple times where you could tell the story was already written and so I think that's where you have to sort of feel it out. If you can tell by the questions that the story is already written and somebody is just trying to get a quote, then that approach does not work.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:And then you don't waste your time.
Angela Fentiman:You don't, you keep your sound bite tight, and you move on.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Right and that's critical, having a tight sound bite so it doesn't get manipulated.
Angela Fentiman:Exactly. More likely, you would just put it in writing.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:That's even better.
Angela Fentiman:In those cases, yeah. When the story is already written and somebody's looking for a quote, just something in writing is a lot better. Yeah, there's a point of view or an angle oftentimes coming in, and there's sometimes not a lot you can do. There was one situation where I was on call during a earthquake, and there was some damage. You know, there was some damage to structures, but the gas system had performed well, and there were no known leaks. At that point, we weren't aware of any leaks, and the only outages were people who turned off their gas. So basically, those were the only outages. But I got a call from one of the nightly news outlets because it was getting national attention. It was an earthquake in Orange County in the 2010s time frame. But I get this call from the nightly news network, and they're like, "how many gas leaks do you have? I mean, really, with that kind of energy, like, how many gas leaks?" And I said, "well, you know, thankfullythis gas system has performed really well, and there are no known leaks at this time. And you know, we're assessing, but you know, we've got no leaks that we're aware of." I gave the reporter all of the numbers, and the graphic had clearly already been made, because when the story aired, there was this graphic box with"GAS LEAKS," big at the top of it, and then in the text was,"none reported at this time." So that, to me, is an example right of when somebody's already written their story. If somebody's already crafted their own narrative, sometimes it's difficult to shape that and be that educator. But when people are open, that's where you have those opportunities to really share the story, be that educator, connect, and provide that information.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So you've shared stories through your dad's speeches. You've shared stories to reporters as a spokesperson for the public utility company, and now you're in a position to be a communicator for the UCLA Teaching and Learning Center. How have you translated all those experiences to the current work that you're doing?
Angela Fentiman:That's a great question. I think people are pretty consistently human, I would say. And I think that's one of the benefits of working in so many different spaces, is that you start to see some common patterns. And I think what I find really endearing is that every environment really thinks that they're special and different, and really what you start to see are just common human themes in different environments. And so you know, what I learned from dealing with and working with engineers can be very applicable to working with academics. Right as you start to see these patterns, and you start to see the different connections and the different themes across different spaces, you start to see the same, almost like characters, through characteristics and personality. And so you're able to tap into all of those experiences. You're able to tap into, you know, "how did I convince really skeptical engineers to do proactive outreach rather than be reactionary. How did I push a conservative company to get onto social media or to do more innovative things and social media? How did I become a bridge between community and a federal agency?" You know, those are skills that you build in all of those different areas that become applicable in so many different situations. And so they're relationship, building skills, they're understanding how to communicate like an educator, or with the mindset of an educator, and scaffolding ideas and breaking them down in ways that are easy to understand.Making things easy for people, right? Don't make the barrier to entry difficult. I think about that a lot when we
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Define R1 for us. are talking about how we deliver things at the Teaching and Learning Center, right? We have faculty who have so many different commitments, so many different pressures, stress, demands on their time. We're an R1 so you know, the emphasis on publishing.
Angela Fentiman:Oh, yeah. So a research focused institution, right? So being the research focused institution that we are, sometimes it can be hard to convince folks that teaching is also important, or to even prioritize it when the incentives are really tied to publication and focusing on research. And so then, how do we make our engagement with us easy? How do we package things in a way that make it easy to process, easy to apply to your course. You know, our teams developed. We've shared at some of the HCI meetings, slides that instructors can just drop in to their presentations that have information for students orresource pages that they can share with students. Just those little things that make the engagement easier, that make people's work easier, it goes a long way, and that's something that you can learn in a variety of settings, right?
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:What you're talking about are really soft skills, and in a sense, I mean, you've got the skills, the hard skills, of writing speeches, writing articles, but the soft skills, and that's something that people are really trying to build for students for the future, so that they can also get along in a working environment.
Angela Fentiman:Yeah, I don't like to think of them as soft skills because what I found is that calling them soft skills can almost devalue. It tends to devalue the impact and the importance of those skills. And I have been on this mission to reframe those as foundational skills.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Oh, I like that.
Angela Fentiman:And I think that these are really because they are foundational to our success. And it's all of those things that kind of get lumped in with emotional intelligence, things like interpersonal communication, relationship building. I think probably, as a communicator, I just get a little offended of the idea of my practice being a soft skill and not foundational. And I think too, you know, what we find with communication is, when it's done poorly, it's really obvious, and when it's done effectively, you really don't notice it.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So well being.
Angela Fentiman:Exactly, maybe that's why we connect. But you know, really, when you look at those skills and what it is that I look for as a manager, or what I try to develop and encourage in my students, are things. The biggest thing I look for is what I call sponginess, and it's that desire, that excitement, that curiosity to learn and just grow and build. And you know, you see it in those young people, and you just know they're going to be successful in whatever they do.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So true. I love that That's right.
Angela Fentiman:You know, building on that curiosity and that desire, it comes with a flexibility and a coach ability. They're hungry to learn and they're hungry for feedback, and that's what I really try to build and encourage in my students, build and encourage speaking to students when I'm managing my own team, or just mentoring younger folks on a team. Really thinking about, what are those intangibles? What are those things that are going to set you apart? And when I'm hiring, I really see those certain characteristics, when those float to the top, when you really start to see that coming out in a person, a lot of the hard skills are much more It used to be you either were or weren't a trainable than these foundational skills. They can be developed. They're innate in the sense that some folks have a little bit more naturally than others, but not in the sense that they can't be developed in everyone, sort of the way we've come to think about leadership now. leader. Now, everybody has the capacity to be a leader. I know Monroe talks about that a lot. You know, we can all be leaders. You know, we can develop these things.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Yeah, it's great to be able to identify them, these foundational skills, because then people can work on them and develop them. And interestingly, people used to think also that people couldn't build or learn how to be empathetic or compassionate. And that has changed too. Even people that might be really on the far away spectrum of empathy can actually learn to have empathy. So I love that you can pinpoint some of these foundational skills that I'm going to take home with me and also to my work to really help build our junior staff to do the same. Especially, I love the spongeability, one that's really critical.
Angela Fentiman:I love sponginess.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Yeah, totally. This really leads us to your dissertation, which very much builds on these foundational skills that you have. And I don't know if that was part of why you were drawn to this study of leadership with a focus on women who run for executive elected office. Give us a little background of why you chose that and some of the insights that you've picked up from that dissertation, which I know is not finalized. So I don't know how much of a sneak peek we can have, but we can at least get some hints. No, definitely. A lot of my experience growing up with a father who was in public service really shaped my interest in public service. And then early on in my career, in LA, there were some really impressive women elected leaders that I had the benefit of getting exposed to. Laura Chick, the first woman to hold city wide office in Los Angeles, and then the woman who followed her in that same seat, Wendy Greuel, who was also on city council. They used to host these women in leadership forums in city council chambers, and they would bring in women from all over different industries, and so they'd have aWomen in Entertainment leadership panel, and Women in Philanthropy, and they'd bring in all these incredible leaders, and you'd get to listen to them. And that was really foundational for me, because one of the things that Laura Chick talked about a lot is that it was okay to lead as your authentic self, like you could still be whatever being a woman meant to you, and show up as a leader and be an effective one. There wasn't some type of masculine role that you had to adopt in order to be a leader. Sounds like your dad's philosophy?
Angela Fentiman:Yeah, it is. It is consistent with that, for sure. And so she also talked about the distinct challenges that women faced as well,so when it came time to decide what I was going to study, leadership has always been something that I've been interested in, working with leaders as a speechwriter and a coach, and getting to see some of that inside experience, and then looking at what we're seeing as far as women's representation and this slow progress and actually reaching parity in leadership, especially in executive positions. We still sort of have a mindset that need this, not even a toughness, but like a meanness, almost like a cutthroat, especially when it's political. We can see in times where people are uncertain,they tend to lean toward a more authoritarian type of leader who can take care of things for them. And so what I was really interested in was talking to women who had run for executive leadership positions. And that's what I did. I interviewed women who ran for governor during the 2022 midterm election. It was an election where we had the most women that we've ever seen run in total, looking at the primary and the general, there are about 60 women who ran. A lot of them, 25 approximately, were from major parties, and five states had women nominees from both major party. No matter what happened in those five states, they were going to have a woman governor and an additional five states. So 10 states total had at least one woman for a major party.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:That was significant.
Angela Fentiman:And that election, we elected the most women that we've ever had as governor, which sounds like I'm going to say an exciting number, but it's 12.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:It's a milestone.
Angela Fentiman:It's a milestone. It's an improvement. There are some of these milestones that we hit now that I find more sad than celebratory. You know, it was an interesting time to look at something too, because during that election, we also had a woman as vice president, and so there were a lot of really interesting factors for that particular election. And you know, in order to think about different variables and all of the nuances that go into elections, looking at one particular role within a particular election, is really important to really be able to isolate variables and gain really clear insights. The theoretical framework was based on Janet Zollinger's Life Course Research Framework that Dr. Margaret Weber has used at Pepperdine's Work Life Integration Project, and so I basically adapted their instrument to focus more on women in public office, rather than like women broadly, to really understand not just the time in their life when they ran, but their entire life up until they ran, and their experiences and how those were impacted and some of the really interesting things that I thought were interesting were that they all had a history of public service of some kind in the family.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Oh, in their family?
Angela Fentiman:In their family. There were activists, there were family members who were elected, military, but something like that. There was some type of service. And there was this almost, I don't wanna use obligation because that word has negative connotations.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Culture?
Angela Fentiman:There was a culture, but there was a drive. It was more than a culture. There was a drive to give back and to do things for others. And that's actually consistent with the existing literature, that women tend to be more interested in serving when there's something that gives back to the community, where it's not just about them, it's about something bigger. And that you could definitely see that that was the drive for the women that I spoke with. They all had policy issues that they were passionate about. There was something that sparked them and pushed them in. Usually they had to be asked or encouraged, which is also consistent with the literature that led that final push where men tend to just decide to run and run. Women tend to need a little bit extra push, but I think some of that also speaks to some of the challenges in managing personal and professional life that are specific to women.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:And that's where the life course comes in?
Angela Fentiman:That's where the life course comes in, because what the framework talks about are kind of two key pieces which are adaptation and integration, right? So what are the changes and choices and sort of things that women do in order to haveboth lives, you know, operate in both spheres, but also what are the ways and tools and steps and activities that they do to figure out how to bring their whole selves to both spaces, whether that's personal or professional. And so I know we've talked about it a lot, but we still hear the word "balance" when it comes to work life, but really the place that we're trying to get is to integration, because balance really isn't achievable, and it sets up one of those, which I think happens to women a lot, that no matter what choice you make, it's the wrong one, right? That sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:When you look at it as a balance.
Angela Fentiman:When you look at as a balance, you're always losing on one side. And so the idea that you can balance both, and actually a direct quote from one of the women in the study was, I'm not going to get it exactly right right now, but it was something to the effect of like, you can be a great CEO and you can be a great mom, but you probably can't do both at the same time.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So how do you integrate?
Angela Fentiman:So for that particular participant, when she ran for governor, she took the kids on the road with her.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So that's how she integrated?
Angela Fentiman:And they had a blast. And the kids knew what the goal was and what the family was trying to accomplish. She gave when she was with them. She gave them her entire undivided attention and in her words, just like loved on them and just gave them everything in the moment when she was present with them. And then she gave 110% to her campaign, you know? Because she said, if you're not fully in you're going to lose. And that's when we think about women especially in high demand jobs, that if you're not doing that job fully, you're not doing that job justice. And if you're in a leadership position and other people depend on you, you've got that portion to figure out as well.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:That's right.
Angela Fentiman:But if you start to think about it more of like being fully present where you are when you're there, I think that is where that ability to integrate really starts to come into play.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:I think that's a powerful message for all women to hear, especially women that are wanting to go back or are in the workspace, but also have families. I really like that message. I'm looking forward to reading your dissertation. So there's a couple other subjects I want to cover, or maybe we might have to do a separate podcast, but you are not only a communicator and communicating and teaching through your communication roles, but you also teach communication and one of the courses is on crisis management. I just thought the listeners would like to know some of these core principles that you might be sharing in your course that people could integrate into messaging that they might want to share, given the fact that it feels like there's a crisis every month or every week, these days.
Angela Fentiman:Every minute.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Every minute. The biggest takeaway, and I'll speak to this part because I think this is the area where what I offer students is slightly different than maybe the sort of traditional approach to crisis communication. Because, I mean, honestly, you can go on Google and find a great template for a crisis plan, and there are a lot of materials. There are a lot of resources out there for just kind of the nuts and bolts of building an effective crisis plan and responding to crises and that sort of a thing, but I think the key and what I've always come back to, and what I've always focused on in either dealing with crisis situations orin teaching crisis situations, is the human aspect. Whether you're working for a big company, a large institution, there are people at the center. There are people who are impacted by what's happening. There are people who are managing the situation of what's happening, and you cannot escape thatthere are humans. And so I have an entire section in my course where we talk about empathy and compassion, and the difference between empathy and sympathy, and how you move to a place of compassion and caring concern in your messaging. You know we're all familiar with messages that have been overly sanitized because of fear of risk of admitting something, but there is so much room to work within that space, to just let people know that you recognize that they're hurting, that you recognize that this is a difficult situation. It's the difference between saying, "I'm so sorry for your loss" and "oh, my God, that sucks. Come give me a hug right there. Oh, so sorry for your loss," versus, "That's horrible. That sucks." We recognize that this is, you know, in some of the examples I use in class is, if people's lives are massively disrupted, don't say I'm sorry for the inconvenience, right? Like, you know, it's recognizing that situation. And what I have always tried to do is take the moment to be like, if I was the person impacted by this, what would I be feeling right now? What would I be thinking right now? And I think it's also accepting that in some situations, there's nothing you can say. There are no magic words. And I think this is true broadly. In communication, we share information. We're not magicians. We can't fix bad policy. We can't fix bad leadership decisions. We can't fix what happens. And so that's where action becomes really important. That's a form of compassion. Empathy, feels the pain and then the compassion is the critical step to help alleviate. They're not in charge of it, but you can at least give compassionate messaging.
Angela Fentiman:Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:So I wanted to follow up, actually, a little bit after your discussion of your dissertation, about how, when are you going to run for office, given that you were coming from a family of service, you're a communicator, you understand crisis management, and you have a vast, diverse portfolio. Have you ever thought of that?
Angela Fentiman:I'll say it's not the first time I've gotten that question or suggestion, so I'm falling under the category of being asked or encouraged multiple times. I don't know. I don't know. Ask me after the dissertation defense.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Right, you're still building your foundation. I get it, you need to do some integration.
Angela Fentiman:I need some sleep.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Yeah, we just gave you the Ariana Huffington book on sleep. I don't know if that was a hint or we had, ESP that it would be something you might need. She said something very funny about sleep. She came and spoke when she had the book tour here at Semel HCI Center. She was actually part of a panel. She actually facilitated the panel, and Chancellor Block was on it, and she said, when you go to sleep, it's really importantbecause it's like a washing machine for your brain. Your brain just completely clears up with a good night's sleep. And it's such a great image to think about it. It's so true, and I talked about it before in some other podcasts about how sleep is so underrated, and it's true. We actually have a previous podcast with our sleep expert that would be really worth everyone listening to. We did it during COVID, when so many people were having a lot of disrupted sleep for lots of reasons, and it's very informative in terms of when you wake up or when you have a hard time going to sleep, and the reasons behind it and how you can manage it. So you'll have to put it on, maybe go to sleep while it's running instead of reading the book. I'm sure the book has Audible as well. So I know we're winding down, and there's so many more things I'd like to talk about, but we'll have to do it in another time. But the last question that we ask all our podcast participants or guests is, what does it mean for you to live well? Living well means, it means a certain level of autonomy. It means you have something that you're looking forward to. Hope, I think, can be underrated sometimes. Just having even the simplest thing of like a brunch with a friend on the calendar can really improve a rough week, having something to look forward to. I think true self care, because I think that word has been a bit co opted by sort of the wellness industrial complex, but there really is something to be said for arranging your day in a way where you take time to make and eat healthy food. For me, it's taking time to make my tea in the morning, it's almost like a tea ritual, and doing that in the evening. Finding time to move in whatever way your body needs that day, whether it's a tough exercise class, whether it's a gentle mobility type of thing, or yoga, or whatever, but some type of movement meditation and carving out that time for those things. They're not luxuries, right? It's not a spa day. It's not pampering. These are actually, at least for me, these arethe basic things, because one of the ways I have tried to survive this whole PhD process while working full time is making a list of the things that I really need to do daily to feel well. I love that. In fact, you brought in two themes that you talked a lot about in this podcast. Foundational, and also what you're describing as integration into your day. Living Well needs to be integrated into your day, just like the leaders for future governorships have to integrate their family rather than balance because they talk also about life work balance, right? But it's really what you're describing as integrating them into your work and life.
Angela Fentiman:Absolutely.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Yeah. Great advice. Thank you so much Angela.
Angela Fentiman:Thank you Wendy.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:You're amazing.
Angela Fentiman:I could talk to you all day.
Dr. Wendy Slusser - Facilitator:Me too. Thank you all for listening to our UCLA Live Well episode today. And thank you, Angela, for spending time with us and sharing your work in communication, education, women in leadership roles, and how to engage people through their personal narratives. Regardless of the area of study, energy, infrastructure, education, all of these fields are tied together by how we communicate, providing context, perspective and opportunity to share other sides of the story are all part of the human experience and help us see our commonalities. I hope this conversation has picked your spongy levels and you can build upon that curiosity and excitement in whatever you're approaching today. Take care
