91: The Power of Presence: Navigating Modern Stress with Mindfulness

Our latest LiveWell podcast episode features an inspiring and deeply insightful conversation with Diana Winston, the Director of Mindfulness Education at UCLA’s Mindful Awareness Research Center (MARC). Diana shares her personal journey from being a young seeker traveling through Asia to spending a year as a Buddhist nun, a period that fundamentally shaped her understanding of the human mind. Drawing from her decades of teaching and her work at MARC, Diana explores how mindfulness is a practical, evidence-based tool that anyone can use to lower stress and enhance well-being. She highlights the growing crisis of "continuous partial attention" in our digital age and offers practical, hopeful pathways forward through the art of "natural awareness."

In this episode, we discuss:

● The difference between concentrated meditation and natural awareness

● How mindfulness can physically rewire the brain for better focus

● Techniques for "micro-moments" of peace during a hectic workday

● The role of mindfulness in promoting equity and social justice

● Overcoming common myths about meditation

● How students can use presence to combat academic burnout

Whether you’re a student, educator, policymaker, or anyone searching for a sense of calm in a chaotic world, this episode offers actionable tools, uplifting stories, and a powerful vision for a more mindful society.

Resources:

Book: The Little Book of Being

Website:

https://www.dianawinston.com/

Listen now and subscribe for more stories that challenge conventional thinking and inspire holistic well-being.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Welcome Diana Winston. We're so happy to
have you on the Live Well Podcast.
[00:00:05] Diana Winston: Thank you.
[00:00:06] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Just to tell our audience, Diana Winston is the
director of UCLA Mindful, it's the Mindfulness Education Center of UCLA
Health, and the author of a Little Book of Being Practices and Guidance for
Uncovering Your Natural Awareness.
[00:00:22] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Well, we'll have to unpack that. She's sought
after as a speaker and has been called by the Los Angeles Times, one of the
nation's best known teachers of mindfulness. She's taught mindfulness since
1993 in a variety of settings, including hospitals, universities, corporations,
nonprofits and schools in the US and Asia.
[00:00:45] Dr. Wendy Slusser: And you're considered one of the early
founders of the meditation programs and retreats for youth. Your meditations
have a global reach through UCLA Mindful and other apps, and recently your
meditations have become a feature of the California Governor's Mental Health
website, and I just have to say, you know, I've talked about UCLA being a
treasure hunt.
[00:01:06] Dr. Wendy Slusser: I heard first heard about you actually from my
cousin in France, and, and your app your meditation apps s so, anyway, that
goes to show you how much of a incredible wealth of knowledge so many
people have here in this at UCLA and the reach of, of people who are at UCLA.
So in, in, in addition to being a teacher and scholar around meditation, you've
been practicing mindfulness meditation since 1989.
[00:01:39] Dr. Wendy Slusser: And this is a fact I didn't know until I started
looking into your background, is that you also had a year as a Buddhist nun in
Burma. Could you please guide us through your journey of discovering,
meditation and finding a purpose in mindfulness instruction?
[00:01:56] Diana Winston: Yeah, of course. So I. I was always like slightly
interested in kind of the east, I guess in a way, and I had as a exchange student
in college, I went to Thailand and I, I was, I had this interest in Buddhism, but I
didn't really get into it at the, at that point, and I was very involved with politics
essentially.
[00:02:18] Diana Winston: And so I was more interested in sort of some of the
political and social justice issues that I, that I was observing in Thailand But
anyway. I graduated from college, went back to Thailand, and then to India,
where I went to Dharmsala, India where the Dalai Lama has the government in
exile and everybody's meditating there, right?
[00:02:38] Diana Winston: It's like this, it's a very Buddhist town , and there's
all these different teachings and teachers and it's, kind of an amazing place, and
I was there doing actually some social justice work and Anyway, I ended up
trying my first meditation retreat and I was hooked. I was like, this is amazing.
[00:02:55] Diana Winston: It's so interesting to me. At first, I was skeptical,
but I ended up diving in in like a 10 day retreat, so I went from that. It just
spoke to me really deeply and I guess I was kind of lucky at, at such a young
age to get interested in something like this, and I then traveled to Thailand and
did again and did some a meditation retreat.
[00:03:17] Diana Winston: I did my first mindfulness retreat, and then I spent
the next 10 years essentially in and out of retreat centers and monasteries in
Asia and the United States. There was one not too far from my home on the
East coast, so I was practicing meditation like very, very seriously as a young
person, and the culmination was what you mentioned after 10 years I went to,
well, I had a teacher who was a Burmese meditation master, and he invited me
to his monastery in Burma.
[00:03:44] Diana Winston: Now Myanmar, and so I went and I ordained as a
Buddhist nun and lived with him and meditated for the year. So I was in, in
silence for a year, meditating and really deepened my practice. So that was
kinda the first 10 years of, of my earlier set practice.
[00:04:00] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Wow. Okay. Let's unpack that. First, you were
skeptical. Why were you skeptical?
[00:04:06] Diana Winston: I think it was, I was sort of like, political activist
and was kind of like, this is opiate of the masses kind of thing, religion, but, but
there was so much when I did my first meditation retreat, , there was very
profound teaching that I remember that really has, stayed with me.
[00:04:21] Diana Winston: I still remember it to the day where they talked
about what's called the eight, eight worldly wins or the eight truths about the
world and that there is pleasure and pain and gain and loss and fame and
disrepute and praise and blame, and that there are these positive things and
negative things, and we're always looking, we're running madly after the
positive and running away from the negative.
[00:04:45] Diana Winston: And I heard that teaching and I was like, oh, this
explains my life, and I was, you know, a very sort of driven young person trying
to succeed and college and grades and teacher, , it was like seeking the praise,
and when I saw that, that was like a reflection of what my psyche was like.
[00:05:05] Diana Winston: I remember the next thing that, that that the teacher
said, which is that , there's all these, positive and negatives and life is
continually up and down like a rollercoaster, and there isn't a way to control life,
but what there is is a way to relate to it in differently. Like you don't have to be
sucked into the positive and run away from the negative.
[00:05:26] Diana Winston: And how do you do that? Through meditation, and
that was what, just like something just shifted in me and I went, I want that. I
can have, what if I could have peace of mind, even amidst all the changing
things in life. So that was like kind of the turning point for me, and I was, I don't
know, 21, 22 something.
[00:05:42] Diana Winston: Yeah.
[00:05:43] Dr. Wendy Slusser: That is so cool. So that's what you, when you
said you were first skeptical and then you got hooked, that's what really
[00:05:50] Dr. Wendy Slusser: hooked you,
[00:05:50] Diana Winston: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:51] Dr. Wendy Slusser: giving you that perspective
[00:05:53] Diana Winston: Yeah.
[00:05:54] Dr. Wendy Slusser: and Then cut to 10 years later, you're, you,
you're in silence for an entire year. How did you do that? That sounds really
hard. I've tried to do it for 24 hours and I always kind of take a little cheating
time.
[00:06:10] Diana Winston: Yeah, well, it's different. I mean, when you're in
like a, I'm in a monastery where everybody's doing it, so it's more supportive
than being at home, ,
[00:06:17] Diana Winston: so I was a Buddhist nun, which meant I shaved my
head and I wore these robes and , you could only eat before noon and the rest of
the day you had to fast, and and you had to meditate, and you were like in
silence from the beginning of the day till the end of the day. Meditating, but not
just sitting there.
[00:06:33] Diana Winston: You would do sitting meditation, walking,
meditation, sitting. There would be lectures and things that you could meet with
a teacher. , It was incredibly hard and amazing. Like it just, there was, I mean,
there was, it was a lot of physical conditions that were pretty intense, like,
snakes and spiders and scorpions, like spiders, the size of dinner plates, I'm not
kidding. Giant scorpions and centipedes and bugs and scu,
[00:07:02] Dr. Wendy Slusser: and you couldn't scream
[00:07:04] Diana Winston: you were not supposed to. So it was like dealing
with all those kinds of
[00:07:10] Dr. Wendy Slusser: uh.
[00:07:10] Diana Winston: and the heat and the food and the language, and,
but then there, and then there was the internal conditions of loneliness and you
know it, and it was hard, but.
[00:07:21] Diana Winston: I loved the meditation practice so much, and that's
what kept me there. 'cause it was so incredibly interesting to learn how to
develop my mind, to train my mind so that it would find that place of balance
and ease and even mindedness that I was seeking from the very beginning, and
that happened even in those conditions.
[00:07:39] Diana Winston: Yeah.
[00:07:40] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Wow. So is it like exercise though? If you, so
you went for a whole year doing this and now it's, I don't know, how many
years later do you feel though that that gave you. A charge recharged or gave
you a charge in your body that will always be there? Or do you feel like you
have to practice to keep whatever you experienced at that moment alive?
[00:08:08] Diana Winston: , It's definitely like , I lit a fire and Right, and it was
really like, because I did this intensive practice, I got very, very, like deep
concentration and lots of insight and did, , a depth of practice there and, to keep
it alive. You have to keep going. , It's just like you're not done.
[00:08:24] Diana Winston: Okay, wait. I did it for a year. Great. It's like I still
meditate as much as I can. Maybe not every single day, but most days, and, and
I have to, and then plus, it's interesting, right? Like, I love meditating. It's very,
very interesting to notice one's mind and see what happens and to try to train,
train the mind.
[00:08:40] Diana Winston: So anyway, yes, you have to keep going, and it
does it, it also like doing a period of practice like that. Changes a person, you
know? So let's say I had stopped meditating at that point, which I didn't, there
was something that had changed in me in those in that year because you don't
go into something that like deeply without having effect.
[00:09:03] Diana Winston: Personal effects.
[00:09:05] Dr. Wendy Slusser: So a couple of things, more questions about
that one year of not talking. So it sounds like other people were talking, so they
would, you went to lectures and listened
[00:09:16] Diana Winston: was a, there were teachers there, right? And it was
a monastery. So there were a lot of people who lived there permanently, like
monks who were there, and then there were lots of people all over from all over
the world who would come in and maybe would come for a week or a month or
six months, or there was one guy there for three years, this guy from Holland,
[00:09:32] Diana Winston: it was an international monastery that invited
people and a lot of Burmese people lived there. In Burma, you know, they in all
the southeast Asian, Buddhist countries, everybody, at least, I don't know if it's
still the case, but would go to the monastery for a little bit of time every year.
[00:09:47] Diana Winston: So some people would go for like a week to
meditate and young men sort of in between high school and whatever they do
next. It's a typical thing that they go in the monastery for the summer for two
months or three months. So, yeah, so a lot of people were coming in and out. I
was there.
[00:10:03] Dr. Wendy Slusser: So it's like a rite of passage almost for a
[00:10:05] Dr. Wendy Slusser: lot. And so was it that you committed to one
year, that was it, that's what your plan was, or?
[00:10:12] Diana Winston: I thought I was going for six months, but I was so
happy there that I went on for another six months, so, but then I wasn't so happy
once I was there. I mean, it was hard there. It
[00:10:21] Dr. Wendy Slusser: It sounds hard. Yeah, I'm really, I'm so
impressed. That should be on everyone's bucket list at least for a week. Okay,
so. I'm shifting, I'm going from Burma, which seems like I, we should just sit
there and just enjoy it right now, but let's shift to where you, what you've been
doing here in the U.S. You worked with hospitals, schools and corporations, and
you also have a 17 year tenure with the Mindful Awareness Research Center
and
[00:10:57] Dr. Wendy Slusser: I guess one of the questions is related to what
patterns do you notice early on and how different communities respond to
mindfulness?
[00:11:06] Diana Winston: When I came back from rumor that this was like
the late nineties, I was trained as a Buddhist meditation teacher, so I'd now done
a lot of practice and I was trained, and then I started teaching in the Buddhist
world.
[00:11:21] Diana Winston: Mostly up in Northern California, but all around,
and, after I did that for a number of years, I got very curious about how could
these practices be brought out into the world and not within a Buddhist context,
but they're so incredibly helpful for people of all backgrounds, and that was
when I met people at UCLA.
[00:11:39] Diana Winston: And so Sue Smalley was just starting up with, she
was a professor in the psychiatry department who was researching ADHD, and
she had a postgrad who had gotten a grant for mindfulness and ADHD for
teenagers and adults, and I was one of, back then, this was a long time ago, I
was one of the few people who had done work with teens and mindfulness and
I'd written a book on that back then.
[00:12:01] Diana Winston: Yeah, this was, yeah, this was like
[00:12:03] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Oh wow.
[00:12:04] Diana Winston: and, and so I connected with them and they hired
me to run a research study to be the teacher and help design this research study
on how if mindfulness. Could help people with ADHD, and, oh, by the way, let
me just say, mindfulness is paying attention to our present moment experiences
with openness, curiosity, and a willingness to be with that experience.
[00:12:25] Diana Winston: So it's really about learning to live in the present
moment and not lost in ruminations of the past and the future so that we can
find more wellbeing and healthy living because we're here, we're present for it.
So they were curious how mindfulness for ADHD would help, particularly
teenagers. We did the study and it was pretty, it had good results, but the more
important thing was that we all were like, oh, Diana, come, I, we, you should
come to UCLA and we could have a center and we could teach mindfulness.
[00:12:58] Diana Winston: And I was like, that sounds great. Well, first I was
like, I'm never leaving the San Francisco Bay Area. No. Anyway, here I am 20
years later, , so then. I came to UCLA and I started teaching classes and
programs, and that's when I started doing it, and, , primarily, obviously at
UCLA, but I started consulting and helping other universities and businesses
and schools and stuff in my role as this director of education at the UCLA, what
was called the Mindful Awareness Research Center.
[00:13:28] Diana Winston: . I've done that. , Many things through our center
for the last 20 years, but a few years ago we transitioned into UCLA Mindful
through the health system. So it was just a little bit of a different situation.
Yeah.
[00:13:41] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Tell me what drew you to teaching others in
that period of your life? When I first met you.
[00:13:50] Diana Winston: Well, once I saw how useful the practices were for
me personally, and then as I was teaching it, as I said in the, in more Buddhist
context, which was I was teaching retreats, not year long retreats, but like five
day retreats. Seven day retreats, and then, and then this, this vision of like, how
can we share it with the larger community and with the world and bring it into
institutions?
[00:14:12] Diana Winston: How can we invite institutional change through
bringing in practices that cultivate wellbeing and , That's when , we developed
the center in those early days, and it was really about teaching mindfulness as
broadly as we could, both within UCLA and widely. So in the early days,,
basically I was knocking on doors and saying, Hey, there's this thing called
mindfulness.
[00:14:34] Diana Winston: It's really good,, and then I would teach and I
taught, oh my God. It's been almost 20 years I've taught. , We had an undergrad
course, not me personally, but Marvin Belzer taught that , so we did a lot with
the students. We did a lot within the health system.
[00:14:47] Diana Winston: 'cause we were in psychiatry. So we would bring it
into all these different aspects of the health system. We would bring it to the law
school every year. We just spread mindfulness as widely as we could, and then
we had a, at that time, a Los Angeles reach, right because, we started teaching
these classes called MAPs classes, Mindful Awareness Practices, where people
could learn the basics of mindfulness.
[00:15:09] Diana Winston: And then we created more and more advanced
classes and we had thousands and thousands of people go through our classes
over the years, and then at a certain point we realized that myself and my
colleagues couldn't do all the work we should train teachers, and so we
developed what was called the Training and Mindfulness facilitation, and we
trained hundreds of people all over the world.
[00:15:31] Diana Winston: That was like really joyful to do because of exactly
what you're talking, that ripple effect because people from different populations
could teach in ways that I as a, , white, middle-aged woman was not gonna have
access to or not have, not be able to speak to, and , so it just has been this kind
of exponential growth.
[00:15:49] Diana Winston: , the next thing was when we went online, of
course this happened for everybody during the pandemic, but that made our
audience global, , we've had the app, the UCLA Mindful app for, I don't know,
maybe 10 years. So that started a long time ago.
[00:16:04] Diana Winston: But that app now has, , hundreds of meditations on
it and all these ways for people to access mindfulness, and it has, I think now 19
different languages that people can learn mindfulness in. , So , that's been like a
bit of the trajectory, but the really cool part , is I'm now in that UCLA health
system and I do feel like systemic change has happened.
[00:16:24] Diana Winston: Instead of me knocking on the door saying, try
mindfulness, you'll like it. I feel like the health system goes, oh, we love
mindfulness. We know and we wanna support you, and now I can share some of
the initiatives we're doing, it's like, I feel it's embedded into the university in
such a beautiful way.
[00:16:39] Diana Winston: So, and you've been part of that with helping with
the MindWell stuff and , just been incredible to see all the support we've gotten
to take this ancient practice that comes out of this monastery, , in Myanmar,
Burma. That's been around for 2,600 years is like a really beautiful feature of
UCLA now.
[00:16:59] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Well, I think what you've done, which is really
translating this ancient practice to something that people feel is tangible. ,
Referring back to that 10 minute mindfulness practice of working through
difficulties. I mean, 10 minutes is very different than one year of silence, and so
people can enter this in different ways, , I'm really grateful to you for that.
[00:17:24] Dr. Wendy Slusser: And one of the things about the hospital that
you're bringing up that the culture has really shifted, and I don't know if it's like
this in other hospitals, but at UCLA, I know from , my colleagues and , my own
acupuncturist , and integrative medicine doctor. Is that they also have found that
acupuncture in the hospital, has not only enhanced the wellbeing of the patients,
but also it reduces the time they spend in the
[00:17:56] Dr. Wendy Slusser: hospital. And I'm wondering from your point of
view with the mindfulness, what have you seen and also what are the
opportunities for research that you might see in your practice that. Could also
make this potentially something that could then have the ripple effect. Us doing
it well in our own backyard and others can be inspired.
[00:18:16] Dr. Wendy Slusser: I'd love to hear more about that.
[00:18:18] Diana Winston: Yeah, I mean, I've watched more integrative and
wellness based kind of therapies and programs get. Much more central in
UCLA. I mean, now we have the Integrative Medicine Collaborative. There's 43
centers involved with it, and that includes the East Center for East West
medicine with acupuncture and, just like a huge amount of people, both clinical
research and education doing fantastic integrative modalities.
[00:18:44] Diana Winston: So, that's been exciting to see.
[00:18:46] Diana Winston: Yeah. There's been a, a number of research studies
in the last 20 years. So , when we were the Mindful Awareness Research
Center, and it still is around doing research, , , some of the major work has been
of around breast cancer survivors, and so we've, we're actually still, we've done
like five or six different studies, multi-site studies, and we're currently in a study
right now taking that MAPs program and turning it into an app and seeing if
that will help young breast cancer survivors.
[00:19:12] Diana Winston: There's been studies around insomnia. They've
done some kids studies. , They've done things looking at like pediatric residents.
Would it help Alzheimer care providers? Will it help? There's a student study
going on right now in insomnia. Recently someone just did a study with long
COVID and seeing if mindfulness would impact that, and we had a few good
[00:19:32] Dr. Wendy Slusser: that would be great.
[00:19:33] Diana Winston: right? It so it, I mean there was some, benefit, but
not like enormous. When I started 30 years ago, there was like five studies,
right? And now there's probably 10,000 studies, not here at UCLA, but all over
the world.
[00:19:48] Diana Winston: 10,000, 20,000. So that's incredible, but but
anyway, going back to the hospital, I'm actually about to start a research study
we wanna, we we're developing a mindfulness and compassion program , for
physicians and ultimately it'll be for all care providers, and so we're seeing if a
six week, six hour program might impact things like burnout and compassion
fatigue and those kinds of issues that a lot of care providers are, you know,
they're so burned out.
[00:20:17] Diana Winston: So we're doing that, and then we, the other cool
thing that we're doing is we have developed a program for patients, and so we're
gonna be rolling out like a video course that any UCLA patient can have access
to, so,
[00:20:29] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Wow, that's really great. I've actually been ,
researching a lot about the burnout, quote unquote, of the physicians and some
people consider it not necessarily the right word, it's more like moral injury, and
so it's not about you internally, it's more that there's these outside forces that are
creating this kind of setup where you feel like you're not doing your best work.
[00:20:56] Diana Winston: Yeah.
[00:20:57] Dr. Wendy Slusser: And so mindfulness would be a, it's sort of in a
way, the way you described how you got hooked. About mindfulness. There's
always two sides to things, right? And this is one of them, , I would love to talk more about offline when we, when we move on, is we're looking at we just
launched a storytelling initiative.
[00:21:19] Dr. Wendy Slusser: And narrative medicine is a component of that
focus area, but it's not just narrative medicine, which originally was focusing on
the stories of the patients, but it's more about how does the provider write write
stories to help themselves and address that moral injury, and I'm thinking in a
way, meditation and writing are very similar, and journaling is, I guess, sort of a
bridge between
[00:21:50] Dr. Wendy Slusser: as you move on with that work, i'd be really
interested in seeing if we can add something on as we move forward on some of
the proposals that we're working on right now.
[00:22:00] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Yeah.
[00:22:01] Diana Winston: I'd love to look at the research around moral injury.
'cause you know, we're designing this study right now,
[00:22:05] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Yeah. I think it's super interesting. I, I've seen
presentations where people are talking about us really trying to rephrase it away
from burnout because it does make you feel, I mean, as a physician, I think like,
oh, I'm burnt out. It feels like a, I'm a failure, right? Like I don't, and that's the
last thing that you can admit, that you have burnout, right?
[00:22:31] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Because you are always considered that you
have to, soldier on, know, when I trained. Every third night. I didn't get sleep for
three years. So it's like, you know, that kind of thing that at least my age group
where we are especially prone
[00:22:46] Dr. Wendy Slusser: to not admitting that we cannot do something.
Anyway, moving on.
[00:22:51] Dr. Wendy Slusser: You said that mindfulness is not just a
technique, but a way of life, and I'd like how do you guide students from doing
mindfulness to being mindful? In their everyday lives
[00:23:04] Diana Winston: I mean it's, really important that, , people, can
assume like, okay, if I just meditate, then everything's, all my problems are
solved. Like in that 10 minute meditation.
[00:23:14] Dr. Wendy Slusser: helps me,
[00:23:15] Diana Winston: helps, even if it helps for, but.
[00:23:17] Dr. Wendy Slusser: But it's momentary. Yeah, yeah,
[00:23:19] Dr. Wendy Slusser: yeah.
[00:23:20] Diana Winston: it's also about integrating it into your day.
[00:23:23] Diana Winston: And so I work really hard to teach, how do we
bring mindfulness throughout our day? Mindful when you're driving and you
wanna, you get pissed off and you're, you're gonna speed up and do something
you regret or, and when you get that email that you immediately write back and
you say, Hey, you jerk, why'd you send that to me?
[00:23:41] Diana Winston: And how do we bring these mindful moments?
There's a lot of techniques that I teach. Some it's just remembering to stop and
breathe and feel your feet on the floor when you're about to be get angry or
anxious. , We teach a technique called S.T.O.P. that that stands for stop, take a
breath, observe and proceed.
[00:24:02] Diana Winston: And when we observe, we would observe like
what's happening in this moment. My heart's racing. My stomach is clenched.
I'm itchy. The sounds are loud. Whatever it is that's happening in the moment.
So, in fact, we could just invite people right now to try it, whatever they're
doing, but don't close your eyes if you're driving and listening.
[00:24:20] Dr. Wendy Slusser: So remind me. So stop. So what's the S for?
[00:24:23] Diana Winston: So I'll just, how about I just walk you through it?
So we stop. So whatever people are doing, just stop the flow of that. For
instance, take a, take a breath, eyes open or closed. That's the tea, and o observe.
Notice something that's happening inside you. Maybe it's something physical,
maybe it's a thought going through your mind. Maybe it's the sound from
outside. You can take another breath or two and then proceed. That's the P, and
you hopefully have a little bit more mindfulness in your life. So,
[00:25:02] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Nice.
[00:25:02] Dr. Wendy Slusser: That reminds me, Marv, who you worked with
for decades or decade at least told me about that. Just taking those two deep
breaths, like you can just do it in the checkout line of the grocery store,
whatever, and I now because of that. Him sharing that with information with
me. I, try to start a lot of my meetings with that same,
[00:25:25] Dr. Wendy Slusser: step.
[00:25:25] Dr. Wendy Slusser: That's part of your S.T.O.P. I like the stop
though, because that actually gives it a little bit more context. I like that. 'cause
it gives you, makes you observe and proceed. The observe part
[00:25:37] Diana Winston: Right. is what's so important. a lot to notice, right?
That observe, you can notice the sounds, you might, if your eyes are open, the
sight, sensations, Yeah. but in a, when you, if you're gonna do it in a quick way,
you just kind of notice the first thing that's most obvious.
[00:25:53] Dr. Wendy Slusser: that a lot. So next question is, you've taught
mindfulness in settings ranging, I already said, from medical centers to youth
retreats. Can you share a moment when mindfulness made. A tangible
difference in a challenging situation, either personally or professionally.
[00:26:10] Diana Winston: So I have a teenager and mindfulness comes in
handy quite significantly, being a mom of a teenager.
[00:26:17] Diana Winston: , but like, just the other day she was eating with us ,
and we were having dinner, and we were talking and then she's like, can I be
excused?
[00:26:24] Diana Winston: I'm feeling really anxious about my homework, and
I said, okay, sure. So she got off and then she went and we were sitting, like the
dining room was kind of open concept so we could see what she was up to. So
she goes over to the couch and pulls out her phone and just starts getting on
TikTok or something and rolling the thing, right? And I was just sitting there
and I was like, wait a minute. She said she was anxious, right? She doesn't
wanna be with us. She wants to do TikTok. I know that's developmentally
appropriate, whatever, but, but so I just took a moment, I just kind of. Took a
breath and I just, I practiced S.T.O.P. Essentially I noticed that I was, I was
upset 'cause I felt a little dis kind of, you know?
[00:27:04] Diana Winston: And then what I might've done was I might've
gone, Hey, you know, while you're on the phone, you said you had homework.
Right? Which would've been like the classic, but instead I just kind of calmed
myself down, checked into my body. Took a breath, and then I stood up and I
went and I walked over and I just like walked straight and looked her in the eye
and said, Hey, that made me feel bad because you were eating with us.
[00:27:25] Diana Winston: And, and then suddenly you said you wanted to do
homework, but really it felt like you were like not including us or not wanting to
be part of us, and she said, I'm really sorry, mommy, and she then went and did
[00:27:37] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Makes me wanna
[00:27:38] Diana Winston: yeah.
[00:27:38] Dr. Wendy Slusser: That's so sweet.
[00:27:40] Diana Winston: But that's the power of mindfulness to change what
could be a really hard relationship could impact the relationship negatively into
something really
[00:27:47] Dr. Wendy Slusser: that's so great. I'm gonna have to try that out. I
don't have teenagers anymore, but , the only memory that when you were
talking about that, that I did was when I was about 45 and the kids were, my
husband traveled a lot. I was really frustrated with them. I might have been 40,
they were young, and I gave myself a timeout
[00:28:13] Diana Winston: Exactly.
[00:28:14] Dr. Wendy Slusser: I was like, they were like, what are you doing?
[00:28:15] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Like, they were both like fighting with each
other or something. They said, what are you doing? I said, I'm, I'm having a
timeout and I get one minute for every year. I am old, so I get 40 minutes, and
they were like, what? Especially the younger. She was young. She was like
four. What? What do you mean you've got a timeout?
[00:28:34] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Who gave it to
[00:28:35] Dr. Wendy Slusser: you? Anyway? I think
[00:28:37] Dr. Wendy Slusser: that It was a different version of a mindfulness,
but now that I know mindfulness, I like that a lot.
[00:28:42] Dr. Wendy Slusser: I like the stop thing. Thank you for that. So
your work on natural awareness explores a spacious, effortless form of
mindfulness, which is I think an expansion of what we've just been talking
about.
[00:28:54] Dr. Wendy Slusser: How do you help people , access this state? Or
maybe even explain what that means, , natural awareness, and then we can get
into how you can access it, and especially those , new to meditation.
[00:29:07] Diana Winston: Yeah, . So over the years having taught it, I've
found there's different, there's lots of different methodologies for teaching
mindfulness and there's different ways of being mindful. So much of like the
kind of stereotype of how do you be mindful that people learn is like. You sit
down, you notice your breathing, you feel a breath or two, and then your mind
wanders away and you bring it back and you stay with your breath.
[00:29:32] Diana Winston: And that's a very helpful way to, to practice, and it
develops the things we're talking about, right? It develops that present time
awareness. When you get lost in ruminations, you come back into the present
moment. So if you think of mindfulness, or sorry, if you think of the way
attention works, attention's kind of like a A camera.
[00:29:51] Diana Winston: So you can take a telephoto lens, camera
photograph, you can take an ordinary photograph, but you can also take a
panoramic lens, photograph like a very wide open one. So mindfulness attention
is that way. Attention can be very focused. Attention can be sort of just as it is
right now, you and I just kind of straight ahead or.
[00:30:12] Diana Winston: Our attention can be really wide and spacious and
we're still being mindful. It's just like, like when you stare out of the sky or I
look out the window and I just see the beautiful trees right there. It's like there's
something that can happen inside us where there's like a resting and quieting
and a sense of deep wellbeing can come, and that's what I call natural
awareness, and I call it natural awareness because.
[00:30:34] Diana Winston: It feels like it's accessible to anybody. It's part of
what it means to be human. Like most of us have had the experience of going
out in nature and just like, ah, peace, relaxation, ease wellbeing. So, that's
comes from a, it's not coming from that like focused working hard meditation
approach. It's much more of just kind of like a being and, and really fully
showing up for life and just being there and resting.
[00:31:02] Diana Winston: And so. Resting. Doesn't mean it's passive, but just
like letting the mind just rest. I know. So I started teaching that and then I wrote
a book about natural awareness and the way that I teach people to access it is
there's something, I call it glimpse practices. So there's little things you can do
to have access to this state of mind, but one of the simplest ones.
[00:31:24] Diana Winston: And you know that, that what I'm talking about is I
would just ask people right now and we can do it, it'll take like a couple of
seconds, but. Just to think of a time in your life when you felt stressful at ease,
peaceful, connected at home, and it could have been out in nature, it could be
with animals.
[00:31:43] Diana Winston: It could be with your best friend. It could be in
sports, right? Like you're in the zone, right? So, so I just invite everybody to
take one moment, don't close your eyes if you're driving to, to just remember
where you were when you felt that, and what did you see. What did you hear?
And then what did you feel?
[00:32:03] Diana Winston: What was that quality of wellbeing that resting that
deep, deep sense of presence and connection? I feel like I can take a breath and
notice and then can stop. As we come back, like what do, like, I don't know
what you were called or what, but what do you, you can share it if you want or
not, but what was it?
[00:32:29] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Well, you know what? I do this when I wake
up in the middle of the night and I try to think of my happy place. But the way
you just described it, I always at that in those moments, I'm not thinking about a
moment in time, I'm thinking about the place, but what you just described to me
is like a moment in time in that place, and that's even better.
[00:32:51] Diana Winston: All right because you can
[00:32:52] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Yes. Because you felt it before. I really like
that. So I was thinking about I, my family, my dad grew up on a farm and we
still have it, we call it a ranch in Northern California, and I just remember in my
high school years in the summer, towards the end of the summer, it'd be cool
enough to be under. The shade of in front of the house, and I would sit and I
would lie down and read the summer reading for my, my next year's school
year, but just lying there like at four in the afternoon with the wind blowing and
the, the coolness and the, and a great book that I had to read.
[00:33:33] Diana Winston: Yeah,
[00:33:35] Dr. Wendy Slusser: But it was a great place to do it.
[00:33:37] Diana Winston: What did it feel like? Like what? Can you
remember what that
[00:33:40] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Yeah, it felt cool. It felt kind of moist 'cause I'd
be lying on the ground and, and I had been in the sun all day, so it was relaxing
and I was, engrossed in a story. Yeah. It felt, it was nice
[00:33:54] Dr. Wendy Slusser: so we've talked about a lot how your
meditations are featured on the UCLA Mindful app, and we'll definitely put that
in our material when we push out this interview.
[00:34:07] Dr. Wendy Slusser: You also now are on the California Governor's
Mental Health website. That's really cool. So that's another place. If people can't
find the app, you can always get, go to the California Governor's Mental Health
website and, as mindfulness reaches broader audiences through digital and
public health channels, what opportunities do you see for deepening its impact?
[00:34:30] Diana Winston: You know what I'm really interested in these days
is going back to systemic change. When I first, as I said, when I first started, it
was like a fringe practice that people, , who were very serious about it, did it, ,
but it, wasn't really seen as, um, it was seen as weird kinda, and now, I've seen
over the years, I've watched it get integrated into school systems and to
universities, into health systems, into the psychology field.
[00:35:00] Diana Winston: , So many of the. Psychological treatment
modalities that are popular these days have a mindfulness component. , So that's
that continued integration is sort of my vision for what, what's happening now.
You know, the apps, there was a, there was like a whole, like there, mindfulness
apps got really, really popular with things like Headspace and Calm and so
forth.
[00:35:20] Diana Winston: And now they're, I think, I don't think they have the
kind of popularity they used to, because I think people realize that they couldn't
solve their problems in five minutes of meditating on the app. , And think
people have moved on. There's, you know, whatever's the flavor of the month.
[00:35:34] Diana Winston: But, I think I'm just continuing to watch the
deepening of it and I'm watching more and more people adopt it and it's
beautiful to see and people from all walks of life and all different backgrounds,
and I think like, there was less diversity around who had access to these
teachings.
[00:35:52] Diana Winston: And now because there are more teachers, like
Bipoc teachers and teachers going into different communities and underserved
communities, we're seeing mindfulness really growing, and that's, beautiful to
see. I'd like to see it impact the government, but there is Mindful Fed some, and
these are students of mine who started Mindful Fed.
[00:36:10] Diana Winston: And then it got shut down when they shut down
things, but then it got reopened. I think it's still there. I'm not a hundred percent
sure what's happening, but
[00:36:18] Dr. Wendy Slusser: That's good to know. I worked with a
researcher who looked at large data sets, and it was looking at mindfulness in
relationship to health and wellbeing, and the way they defined it in the large
data set was not just related to practicing mindfulness, but also like if you
practiced a religion, which I think is interesting, the origins of your work or ,
your journey started in a Buddhist.
[00:36:44] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Practice, and so it makes sense that people are
open to it because people have over, you know, centuries or thousands of years
have had some sort of religious practice that might have all incorporated this
sense of, contemplation, I guess. Makes sense.
[00:37:04] Diana Winston: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:37:07] Dr. Wendy Slusser: And so as we become less involved or some
people.
[00:37:12] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Not practicing. This is another form or way to
be able to be more aware of themselves and others
[00:37:23] Diana Winston: Yeah, and to have a depth experience, right? To
build empathy, to build kindness practices that cultivate kindness and
compassion. A lot of people who've rejected their religious backgrounds find
their way to mindfulness, but then a lot of people who have strong religious
identification say mindfulness makes them a better Christian, or whatever it is.
[00:37:44] Diana Winston: So that's been kind of cool to see that too.
[00:37:49] Diana Winston: Yeah, I just wanna say in addition to the UCLA
mindful app where people can practice meditation, our center, UCLA, mindful
has all sorts of classes and so much of what we offer is free to the public. So I'm
at the Hammer Museum, or another teacher is there every Thursday lunchtime,
and we have morning meditations that people can drop in on online.
[00:38:14] Diana Winston: I teach a class on Wednesdays that is free that
anyone can come to. So there's just like. There's other classes and um, and
bigger programs, and then we do some in person, but there's just many, many
ways to plug in and get involved.
[00:38:27] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Wow, that's fantastic. So not only if you live
here in Los Angeles, but you could zoom in some from somewhere else. And
how do people, um, learn about these classes?
[00:38:39] Diana Winston: Um, through our website, UCLA health.org/ucla.
Mindful.
[00:38:46] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Thank you. And we'll put that in, in the
material as well. Thank you for that.
[00:38:51] Diana Winston: Absolutely.
[00:38:52] Dr. Wendy Slusser: Well, we end our podcast with the same
question to everyone, and so I'd love to know what it means for you to live
well?
[00:39:03] Diana Winston: , Living well to me is, really about the quality of
mind and heart that I live from, , that my, that I am. Living with openness and
gratitude and generosity and that I'm aware of my mind so that I'm not lost in
those patterns where I wanna yell at my kids or shout at the guy who cut me off
or right.
[00:39:25] Diana Winston: Like that, that I go towards more and more places
of peace in my mind and heart, and then I, I live from that and I try to embody
that and be that out, be that out in the world, and so. To me, like when the mind
is, is joyful and peaceful and at ease, like that is living well, and obviously I like
to eat well and all those things, but that's the, but that's the, but to me the bottom
line is, is what is my mind?
[00:39:52] Diana Winston: Like what kind of mind do I wanna have? Yeah.
[00:39:55] Dr. Wendy Slusser: , You certainly practice living well with your
generosity of sharing your wisdoms and your experiences here today, but also
every day in the work you do, and I really thank you for what you've done in so
many ways and how many people you've touched, probably people, you, , won't
even know how many people that you've touched.
[00:40:13] Dr. Wendy Slusser: and I wanna thank you for that. Thank you,
[00:40:17] Diana Winston: my pleasure. Yeah.