How to Build a Massive Social Following of One Million in 30 Days

Brendan Kane built a social media following of one million people in 30 days. Not with a big budget. Not with a team of 40 like Gary Vaynerchuk. Just relentless testing and a framework most people overlook entirely.

Kane is the founder and CEO of HookPoint and the author of three books: "1 Million Followers," "Hook Point: How to Stand Out in a Three Second World," and "The Guide to Going Viral." He has spent over 20 years decoding what makes content break through on social media, and his findings might surprise you.

In this episode, we dig into why storytelling is the only metric that matters, how formats rooted in 1920s entertainment still dominate today's feeds, and why 99% of creators are focused on the wrong things. Kane explains the science behind the three-second hook, what the algorithm is actually looking for, and how a creator with 10 followers can outperform one with 10 million.

We also get into the costly mistakes brands and entrepreneurs make when trying to grow on social, why copying what works for someone else usually fails, and how to find the format that fits your personality and goals before you create a single piece of content.

If you are trying to build a personal brand, grow an audience, or figure out why your content keeps falling flat, this one is for you.

Brendan Kane | HookPoint.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Why isn't it working for them if they're arguably doing the same thing?

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Well, they're not doing the same thing because there's nuance. So it's like they're they're not having success because they don't understand why the format works to begin with. So it's and it's not it's not that it's becoming oversaturated because this format has been around since the 50s in video form and it and it doesn't die out. Um it's kind of like I know both of us come from the movie industry. It's kind of like saying just because you use a 3x structure means you're gonna make a good movie. But we know that that's definitely not the truth. Like it's your expression, it's your execution of it. My name is Brendan Kane, and I'm the founder and CEO of Hook Point and the author of One Million Followers, Hook Point: How to Stand Out in a Three Second World and The Guide Going Viral.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Everyone, welcome to another episode of the show. Brendan, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to connect with you and everybody that's tuning into this.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I usually ask my guests, how did you get this job?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Well, I initially I initially wanted to produce movies. And um the the short story is I showed up in LA to pursue a career in film, and I realized they didn't need another film producer. I could see everybody's eyes glaze over when they asked me why'd you come to LA? And I said I wanted to produce movies. And uh the that reaction um pushed me into what I do today. I had to kind of take a step back and see how could I provide value um to this industry and ecosystem that I was new to. And it just so happened at the time social media was just coming on the scene. This is around 2005, and uh started creating the first social media campaigns for for movies and movie studios.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah, 2005. That's the year YouTube comes out, year after Google buys them. Uh, that same year, shortly after, Apple launches iPhone. So a lot's happening. Year after that, South by Southwest, you have Twitter. Uh you know, and that breaks I think breaks the uh the wall of social and just everything sort of comes you know unglued. Like I remember real time, you know, social uh Twitter was where where I was at, you know, uh governments were being overthrown, uh people were communicating more one-to-one, things news was happening in real time. This is an exciting time in in uh in history, but also just an evolution from digital into social. So those are good times. I remember it well. And so um so so how did you go about that? Not having any experience. I mean, you wanted to be a producer, you wanted to make movies, but that's a pretty big leap into cracking the code on social.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Well, when I was going to when I was going to film school, I quickly realized I didn't teach you anything about business in film school, so I started creating a few companies on the side. And the most cost-efficient way was to start online companies. So I started a few online companies really to experiment and learn of what it took to get something up and running and manage it and things of that nature. Um, so I learned a lot about kind of the internet at the time, digital media, and things of that nature. And as social media started to come on the scene, like again, it was brand new to everybody. So you just had to figure it out. You know, you test, you learn, you study. Uh, and I just saw an opportunity at the simplest form of uh that there were people creating content, um, some of them from their bedrooms and reaching millions of people. So my initial thought is well, why not tap into those people and those audiences to effectively promote movies? And nobody was really doing it at the time. Uh so uh I ended up creating uh uh for one campaign, the first ever influencer campaign on YouTube uh in 2006 for a movie called Crank with Jason Statham. So I kind of just looked at like at a high level, like what why are these platforms um like what is what because they weren't really, I wouldn't say that they were like succeeding, because at that time, like 2005, 2006, it was so brand new. Like, and people really weren't paying attention to them. Uh it was just kind of like, hey, this is an interesting thing where these people are creating content, just you know, distributing it themselves on these platforms, and they're connecting uh with millions of people, so why not tap into that?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah, it was you know, it was Mr. Beast counting to you know a million. It was not like what it is today where he's storytelling and there's a whole arc and he's giving away Lamborghinis. Literally, it's just a 15-year-old kid in his bedroom, you know, counting as high as he can count. Um random, you know, cat videos, uh people making content from their bedrooms. Yeah, it was it was the uh the Wild West, but also not much to it, not much thought to it. I agree. Yeah. Um so you eventually built uh you know, this structure, this platform that allowed you to like grow um to a million followers in 30 days, but like it had to cost real money. I mean, uh Facebook ads or whatever you're doing to to grow that. Was it all organic? Was there some uh paid to it? Like what does it actually cost to start something from zero and do what you did?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

And today it costs nothing, it costs time and resources and energy. You do not need a budget to to scale and grow an audience. Um, a lot of our our clients today, they're scaling massive audiences with just their their mobile devices. It's it it really is how effective you can be as a storyteller, and the better the storyteller become, the faster that you can grow and scale. Um, because uh people kind of misunderstand these social platforms. Um, one such misunderstanding or myth is that they suppress your reach on purpose in order to get you to pay to use ads to get your content to be seen. Um the reality is or shadow banned, yeah. 99% of the time when I'm looking at people that claim to be shadow banned, it's not. It's just their content is not connecting. Um, but the reality is is these platforms rely on us as content creators. We are the fuel that run them. It's not like Disney, Fox, you know, uh Netflix, where they're investing billions of dollars in original content for you know, these platforms, whether it's Hulu or Disney Plus or Netflix, any of these. The these social platforms rely on us to create content to keep people on these platforms. If it was just about money, then Mr. Beast wouldn't be the most subscribed person on YouTube. It would be Apple or McDonald's or Coca-Cola, these companies that spend billions of dollars a year advertising their products. They are looking for content that can retain audiences' attention, meaning they want content that can keep people on these platforms longer so they can serve more ads and thus to generate profit. So the reality is in even today, even the size of your audience to start with doesn't mean as much as it used to. You literally can start with a hundred followers, 10 followers, and if you tell the right story, it can reach millions and millions of people.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

So let's break down down a little bit. What is telling the right story look like? And is it, you know, is there are there formats? Is there an algorithm that you need to tap into? Is there a formula? Break it down and walk us through.

unknown 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

So first starting with the algorithm, as I mentioned, the algorithm is looking for one thing, and that is retention. So they're looking for content that they can see to millions of people that stop them in their tracks and cause them to watch a significant portion or all of the content, all of the video that has been created. Uh we need to look at the world through formats. You mentioned formats. So for those of people that are not familiar with what the format is, um I'll just give you a few examples. Uh, one that I'm sure everybody has seen is Man on the Street. You know, you approach a random stranger on the street and a story unfolds. Now, the beauty of a format is a format is a structure that's designed to incorporate any type of message. So for Man on the Street, there are school of hard knocks that approaches um very successful people and asks them, How'd you make your first million dollars? There's Body by Mark that approaches fitness people and asks, what is your fitness routine? Um, there's Alex Stemp, who's a professional photographer that approaches strangers and asks if he can give them a professional photo shoot. So these formats are structures that you can insert your content into. Um, another example is two characters, one light bulb. It's where the same person plays two different characters and they break down a common myth or misconception about an industry or society or culture, things of that nature. Um, then there is like real estate property tours where you have a guy like Ryan Surhant that's touring the most luxurious properties in the world. So at our company Hookpoint, we have a research division that spent about 15,000 hours researching over 300 of these formats. The reason I say that is there's an abundance of formats out there that you can select from to express your message, express your brand. Now, the fascinating thing is a lot of these formats were designed pre-social media. People think social media is this mystery black box that you need some magic wand or magic key to unlock the algorithm. But you look at Man on the Street, the first time that was used in video form was in 1954 for the first season of the Tonight Show. You've got um the two characters, one light bulb. That was used back in the 1920s by a comedian Buster Keaton. And more recently, people would remember Austin Powers. The first movie came out in 1997 where the actor Mike Myers plays Austin Powers and Dr. Evil. Then you look at like the home property tours from like Ryan Sirhand. Well, that goes back, I don't know when the first season was, probably the early 80s of the lifestyles of the rich and famous with Robin Leach. So, so really, when we look at social media, it is not some kind of brand new mystery. It is history repeating itself. And the structures that have proven itself prior to social media apply to telling great stories on these platforms. So, what we always kind of look at and recommend is find the format that you want to execute and become a master of that format. Like it's the same thing of like um going to film school is like you spent all this time learning the three-act structure because every movie over the past hundred years uses the same format. And you only get good at something when you really study it. You study the the successful use cases versus the unsuccessful use cases.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yeah, I love that. Um say more about um the the format or formats that you use to build to a million followers in 30 days.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

So I tested over 5,000 variations of content during that time period, and that was really an experiment. It was an experiment about what type of content does it take to get somebody to share that content and allow those shares to turn into follows. So for me, that experiment wasn't uh the first time I did it, wasn't really about like, I want to build myself into a specific type of brand. It was more a market research test of like what does it take to actually generate followers at scale? So um I leveraged podcast clips, so podcast as a format, um, political commentary, um, motivational and inspirational quotes. I even test tested like pet videos and things of that nature to all kind of understand like what does it take to get somebody to share something at a high velocity and then turn that shareability into follows.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

What surprised you uh during that testing time? Because I sometimes I feel, and I can speak for personal opinion, like I I think I've caught the most interesting, compelling, uh, interesting, heart-stopping clip. And it falls flat. And then I don't take any time, any thought, no strategy. I just clip something and it just goes crazy viral for for some unknown reason to me. So I mean, sometimes it's deliberate, and I I know this is gonna be a banger. Other times it's like I'm completely surprised. So uh weigh in on this. What are your thoughts on what I just said?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

So there's a lot of nuance that goes into content breaking through. Um, first understand that there's 5.2 billion people on social media today uploading upwards of 1 billion pieces of content across all these platforms every single day. So the amount of content that you're competing against to break through is enormous. It's literally survival of the fittest of the best storytellers. So when you're competing at that level, oftentimes you're talking about seconds or fractions of seconds that dictates whether your your content connects and retains audiences' attention or falls flat. So it could be as simple as like, like a big mistake people make in the first three seconds is not having a clear visual hierarchy. So they'll have like a title card, they'll have captions, and they'll have somebody moving. And your subconscious brain, which is making the decision for most of the time of what you're gonna stop and pay attention to, can't figure out like what am I supposed to be paying attention to? And the minute it feels like it's get getting left behind, then it scrolls past. Or your content is positioned into something that the audience thinks they already know what's gonna happen and they've seen it before, which can do that. In addition, oftentimes when you kind of put too much polish on content, it triggers something in our subconscious brain to see, like, oh, this is probably gonna be an ad, so I'm gonna scroll past it. Because it's with a click of a finger, you can just scroll and scroll and scroll and scroll. So I know it kind of feels like virality is is is random, but there's always a reason behind why a certain piece of content breaks through versus another one falls flat.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

And how about um a piece of content going viral on one platform but not on another? So like the identical clip. Now, I you know, I'm seasoned enough to know that the ecosystems are different. You know, like what works on YouTube doesn't work on TikTok because they're different platforms for different people. The consumption patterns and habits are different. But speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

That's exactly what you just said. Yeah, user interface is different, it's unique. Um, even though like TikTok seems very similar to Instagram Reels, there's unique differences to that. And there's unique differences to how these platforms work, is like Instagram really favors shareability and DMs and communicating and connecting through content through DMs versus TikTok doesn't. So each each platform is designed and set up in different ways that dictates what type of formats work per per platform. So it's really these these nuances that cause a piece of content to succeed on one platform at a very high level and and not break through on another.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

So how does one then, you know, if we've chosen a format, you know, per your uh direction and advice, if let's say it's Man on the Street. Uh how are we customizing that format for each platform? How do we how do we know how to break it down from YouTube to TikTok to Instagram? Those are basically our three most popular visual programs of platforms right now.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

So there's a few ways to look at that. Number one is I I highly recommend focus on one platform to dial in and get good at. That doesn't mean you can't take that same content and post it to other platforms. By all means, do that. But we want to make sure that we can actually master one platform versus trying to master all the platforms at the same time. Yeah. Because by mastering one platform, it allows you to spot those nuances. Now, the process that we go through in order to really understand what takes a format to succeed is we will take a specific format on a specific account on a specific social platform. So let's just take like School of Hard Knocks, for example, because they're doing really well. So we'll look at School of Hard Knocks using Man on the Street specifically on TikTok. And what our research team will do is they'll spend about 15 to 20 hours cross-analyzing the high performers versus the low performers to really diagnose what qualitative elements and nuances are driving performance versus detracting from performance. Now, we start with TikTok, but if we want to then master Instagram and we're not seeing that correlation, we'll do the same thing on Instagram, same format, same account to see if there's any distinct differences in terms of how that content performs on that separate platform.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Gotcha. Okay. So yeah, it really is. I think that's great advice. Um, focusing on, you know, becoming the master of one first, and then learning, taking key learnings from that and trying to apply it, and then tweaking, making adjustments to to one or the other. Um let's go back to your books for a minute. So you've written three books which seem to sort of build off the last, you know. So you have um you know, one million followers, and uh the what is the second book title again? How to stand out with three second world. And then you have guide to going viral. So uh each book, there's about five years between the first and the last, right? Uh well, maybe six years.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

No, there's well, so so the the tricky thing is each book's been written a few, rewritten a few times. Yeah um the guide to going viral, the first version, or not the guide going one million followers, the first version came out in 2017. Okay. Um, but I I rewrote each or that book at least three or four times. Yeah. Um just by updating it.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

The first version of Hook Point came out in 2020. We just released a new version, I think, in 2025, and then the guide to going viral came out in 2025 as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Okay. So yeah, uh about 10 years from the first book to now. So um, and it sounds like you have made updates, but my question was going to be like, what what did you get wrong or what has changed since um one million followers to Guide to Going Viral? Uh I know a lot's happened in the last decade of social media, but like, was there anything that you sort of uh was more obvious that you missed or left out of the first book that you included in the last book just because you've learned so much and roamed so much and understand the space?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah, I think one of the biggest changes obviously is the amount of people that have joined social media and are creating content on these platforms, which has made it a lot more cutthroat and um nuanced to succeed um today versus back then. Uh I think that one of the biggest the biggest things is just how important storytelling is. Like I don't think I really kind of understood that back in 2017 or 2016 when I was writing the book. And it's kind of interesting because I started in a storytelling environment and storytelling uh industry. But I think like that that's the biggest thing, you know, just looking back on it is how important storytelling is. And and as we were just talking about, is like how history is just repeating itself and what has worked decades earlier works today. And that the most important thing is um, and focusing on you know, excelling in social media is is kind of push away like all of the information about like hacks and hashtags and time of day and frequency, like forget all those things. Like the most important thing is like, can you actually tell an effective story that grabs people's attention and wants them to watch more of your content? I mean, it's it's very simplistic, it's not easy, but it's a very simple formula to success.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah. And you know, we've talked about school of hard knocks. Uh, I like what those guys are doing. It's sort of a reinvention of what I've been doing for a decade. Um, I've been focused on YouTube, more midform, long form, and school of hard knocks has been focused on short form. Killing the game. Um, it's a different format than we've got, but it's super effective. Now, let me just push back on that or maybe play the other side of the coin, which is when I watch their stuff, um, I also see Man in the Street being done by lots of other people who are trying to jump in that space who do the similar thing to School of Hard Knocks. Why isn't it working for them? If it's kind of the same format and the same kind of thing, is it because it's it's being played out now? Or because it's no longer about followers and subscribers. It's you know, we're in the attention economy where you're right. You could have one to ten followers on TikTok and and hit a banger and that thing goes viral. Talk about that for a minute. So other people jumping into the space uh imitating the format. Well, why isn't it working for them if they're arguably doing the same thing?

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Well, they're not doing the same thing because there's nuance. So it's like they're they're not having success because they don't understand why the format works to begin with. So it's e in And it's not, it's not that it's becoming oversaturated because this format has been around since the 50s in video form and it doesn't die out. Um, it's kind of like you know, both of us come from the movie industry. It's kind of like saying just because you use a 3x structure means you're gonna make a good movie. Well, we know that that's definitely not the truth. Like it's your expression, it's your execution of it. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, so that is the the element, is like if you're not succeeding, there's a reason you're not succeeding. So, like, literally, what we will do with clients is we'll, like, for example, Manus Street, we'll put the School of Hard Knocks a high performer on one side of the screen, and they're underperforming it uh elements on the other side of the screen, we'll watch them side by side. And if you're really honest about it and pay attention, you can tell the difference. Like, there is a difference. It's not just because the school of hard knocks is is is has some magic key or is spending a bunch of money in order to create these um content that that that drives that performance. It's literally in the nuances of how they tell a story. So, like what are those nuances? Well, it can be in in the actual reaction of the person they're interviewing. It can be, you know, how do they actually approach the person on the street? What is the initial question they ask? What is the framing? Like, what is the, you know, is there a perspective shift, you know, in the actual interview that gives somebody this aha moment? Um, we call uh one of our performance drivers work to wow ratio. How hard does a viewer have to work in order to get, you know, useful information? You know, how effective is the hook? Like, how are they using title cards or captions or things? Are they using it? Are they overusing it? Like, what is the tonality of the host? Is the host interrupting the person? Like, is the audio quality good enough that you can hear them? There's all these variables that go into the successful use case of a specific format. So it's not just, hey, I'm going to, I look at what School of Hard Knocks is doing. Oh, that's so easy. I'm just going to do the same thing. It's not, and even if you go back and look at the School of Hard Knocks of you all the way in the beginning, they weren't killing it. Like they had to learn the progression of what it took to make these videos successful.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

And and uh at what point did they start working with you or did you reach out to them?

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Oh, I don't, I don't, we didn't work with School of Hard Knocks. We just did research on their account. So we've we we research accounts every week, every day to understand um to understand what formats are working and why they're working.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Like case studies. I gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah. I think another one that you sort of mentioned it was subtle. I want to just underscore it for the audience here. It's and it's also a big, you know, storytelling uh element, and that is what's at stake. And so if we're using you know their content as a case study, I would say, you know, like interrupting millionaires or billionaires, there's a lot at stake. You know, you could get thrown out on your ass.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Or well, it's one of the reasons Man of the Street works is there's the unknown factor of approaching a random stranger. You do not know what's going to happen. And that's why that format has a high ceiling.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

If you um if you execute it properly. Simon Scribb is another one that that excels at this format of approaching people and asking what is their dream.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah. And I like Simon because he'll also show the failures when he asks someone and he gets totally ignored or he gets a terrible.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

The thing is, that is a performance driver, as we've seen that we've seen that a lot in um Man on the Street is oftentimes if you put like a rejection, like one or two rejections before the actual acceptance, it actually causes um more retention.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah, what do you think the psychology behind that is? Is it the vulnerability? Is it the relatability?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

I think it's more so the again, the unpredictability is like what is if this guy keeps getting rejected, is somebody going to get violent? Is somebody gonna yell? Like it just like the the format just has this unpredictability, unpredictable nature that causes you to lean in.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

And so um when you're working with clients or you're evaluating which format is going to work best, is it just a process of elimination, or do you have like a top five, like, okay, I want to try I want to audition these formats first because I think for this type of content that's gonna be the best fit. What's the selection process look like?

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So we we do a pretty deep matchmaking process. Um, and this is the reason why we've done so much research because number one, the format needs to really connect with you and speak to you as a person. You need to be excited about creating it. Yeah. Because if you're not, if it's like, like for example, like to be transparent, like I tried Man on the Street myself and it didn't work because I'm an introvert. Like I don't want to go out there and just approach random strangers. So yeah, and that's a big part of like finding the format is like if you're not enjoying it or if you're not fueled by it in some way, that's gonna show up on camera, even really on a subconscious level, but it's gonna show up and disconnect you from the audience. Yeah. So we look at like their personality types, like what are their communication strengths and weaknesses? We look at what resources they have. Like, do you just is it yourself and an iPhone? Do you have a camera setup? Do you have a camera crew? Um, how much time do you want to spend creating content? What is your experience level in creating content? We look at all these variables to understand what would be the best fit in terms of formats to start out with.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah. Yeah. And so there is no one size fits all answer or a top five list. It's it's all made to order.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Yes. Because again, a lot of it's personality driven of like what the person connects with. Like I never want to say, go do Man on the Street because it performs and you and you're an introvert and you hate talking to strangers. Like, I mean, that's just gonna, it's not it's not gonna turn out well. Even if you do get some viral hits, you're eventually gonna burn yourself out and be like, I don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah, and you know, I've seen a fair amount of that too. You can kind of tell that that um people are kind of sick of it. It it it translates, uh, even if they're still doing it. That's true. Um, so this series is called Behind the Brand. Let's let's weigh in on uh what you think a brand is, and maybe we'll put it in the context of personal branding, because it seems to be a lot about what you're writing about. So, you know, sure, you know, Apple or uh Google or some, you know, some of these bigger uh consumer brand companies can utilize uh your knowledge to build brand, build community. But let's let's maybe talk about people who are building personal brands. Uh, first of all, what do you think a brand is? And then tell me what you think the Brendan Kane brand is.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Well, I'm not the foremost expert. I think the guy that introduced introduced us, Chris Doe, is the best person to give the the articulate definition of a brand. I think I can speak to it from a personal brand standpoint, which I think it's it's just um a front-facing expression of who you are in the world and what you represent. And that representation can be just a personal brand business. It can be the the the front-facing brand of a company, a product that you're selling. But I think it's like it's expressing what you stand for and how you show up in the world that has the ultimate impact on whether people know, like, and trust you and are willing to take that next step to take the action that you that you want them to take.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah, I think that tracks with, you know, I've asked probably over a thousand people the same question. Um I think that tracks with some of the better answers I've got. I I think if I was gonna add my two cents, um you know, your your brand is not your window dressing. You know, it's uh it can enhance or support or help align or communicate what your brand is, you know, what you're wearing, uh what you say, how you say it. Uh, but you know, brand is not your logo and it's not the clothes you wear or the car you drive. Um I remember years ago, uh as a director, I was pulling up to set. I was being paid well, uh, pulled up to set in a little Honda Civic that I was driving that had probably 220 something mile, a thousand miles on it. And I remember getting this look from my client who watched me get out of this beater, and he said, Oh, this is your car. And I read through the lines, which um I realized was really important actually for uh positioning. It's why we don't always bring smaller cameras to uh shoots. I mean, here's a small little uh SLR camera, for example, and this is one of the more you know smaller run and gun stuff. This is probably a $5,000 camera setup. Even you know, by today's standards, it's a small camera setup. And so sometimes the optics matter, you know, but ultimately brands are distinct. Um when you start looking the same as everyone else, you sort of fall into this category of commodity. And so, like if you know we're talking about formats, if you're just uh doing a format to repeat it because it's been successfully done by someone else in, you're in danger of jumping into a commodity. Brands are distinct, they're different. And um and it's not like how to be better or faster or stronger, it's about being different. How can you differentiate um from other big ones? So uh I like what you said about that. Uh how how would you describe your personal brand?

SPEAKER_02 32:01

I think that my personal brand, it really is about you know, the thing that drives me is how do you stand out at the highest levels? Like what causes something to break through versus falling flat? And the basis of how I always come to that answer is through constant experimentation, research, and learning. So I'm always testing new things, trying new things to learn what is the best way to break through at the highest levels and learn from why you you fail to to do that same thing, and then sharing that knowledge with the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah. Why are you in London and not back in LA doing this? What why why that area of the world?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Well, so I split time between Austin, Texas, uh London and Portugal. I fell out of love with LA during COVID when I when it just kind of went south. I had spent 15 years in LA, and I just was kind of I was just kind of done with it. Um, and the beauty of the work that I do, um, and I learned this very early in my career. I I just know how to build things, communicate with people in a fully remote situation. I mean, I built some early social media technology platforms as early as um 2007, and I was forced to hire remote developers from all over the world to help me um create those things. Uh so for me, the location doesn't really matter as much. Um, and uh yeah, I just kind of fell in love with or fell out of love with LA during that whole kind of COVID side of things and um have been jumping around ever since.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, I think it also speaks to the idea that you know, going back to content creation or becoming successful achieving your goals. You don't have to live in the hottest city, you don't have to be in New York with Casey Neistatt. Well, maybe it's not Casey Neistat's story anymore, but you know, you don't have to be in these hot cities with quotes uh to be Yeah, I think it's funny because Chris Doe and I had a pretty big debate about this on our last podcast, the last podcast I was on.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

I was in the same boat as you, but he was saying no, there is a big benefit to to being in these cities. I was like, man, like you could be anywhere. Like it it sh it's like you look at Mr. Beast, you know, he's in what North Carolina and like the most subscribed person on YouTube. It's just yeah, I I I really don't think that you have to be in a specific geolocation outside of the fact that you need a Wi-Fi connection and at least like a phone camera to be able to do it. If you're living obviously in the in in the middle of nowhere or in a very poor environment that doesn't have Wi-Fi or the ability to create content, then that's going to work against you. But outside of those variables, um I I think that you literally can be anywhere in in the world and and you know, build an audience and create effective content.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Yeah. Now, if you uh have a production company like mine, um you could argue that proximity matters. Yeah, that's different because you're servicing you're servicing clients and you're relying on other people to pick you or to find you know, it's just about the size of the watering hole. You know, how many fish are in that pond? You know, um if you're you're fishing in a small pond, then you've got that many fish if you're fishing in a bigger ocean, like LA, New York, Austin, Atlanta, et cetera, you know. So yeah, um sort of rounding third coming home here, I want to go back to maybe some of these mistakes that you've made. A lot of people don't like to talk about the F-word of failure. Uh, but you know, I've I think the way I frame it is, you know, sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. So what are some of these things that you've learned or you know, made mistakes or failed at in order to get to where you are now? Uh maybe some of these things back to you know, what surprised you about the evolution of how you've built this architecture of instruction, of how you teach people how to build audiences.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Well, I think that the earliest stages of social media were were really about tactics and hacks, um, and these little tricks that you could figure out how to manipulate the early versions of versions of social media to game the system to your advantage. Um, and I think that there was an over-reliance in the beginning to kind of look for those things instead of looking at the larger picture, as we mentioned earlier, of like, well, how do you actually just connect with an audience? You know, and I think that that that was a progression, you know, I've been doing this for you know, going on on 21 years. I I think that, you know, those earliest stages, I think that there was a lot of time spent trying to figure out how you shortcut your your yourself in front of the line, how you build these these audiences through more tactics than actual storytelling. And, you know, it took quite a while to do that. And there were some reasons, you know, early on, these social media platforms were easier to game because there was less content on the platform. So they would favor, for example, frequency, just by the sheer fact if if you were to post more, you would get more eyeballs. Versus today, that's just not the case. It's not just the about volume, it's it's it's really about the quality of content. So I think, you know, in those earlier days, I think there was a lot of time and energy wasted looking for those elements instead of really looking at the larger picture of what is going to be um truly meaningfully, meaningful and and valuable in the long term.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Is now the best time or the worst time to get started? I mean, with so much out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

The best time.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

I mean, it's it's counterintuitive, right? You're saying how many billions of people are on social media and how many billions of hours are being created, and yet you're saying it's the best time. Why?

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Um, two reasons. I mean, 99% of the people creating content are don't have the understanding of what we're talking about today. So the sheer fact that if you're gonna actually spend the time on how to like create like meaningful stories, um that is gonna work to your benefit and you're gonna rise above the noise much quicker. Number two, we live in a world where um there's 5.2 billion people on these platforms, like there's so much audience out there that it's crazy. Like there's just so many people that you can reach. And number three, it's um it's it's the fact that you can start with 10 followers, 100 followers. We have some clients start with zero followers, and you can build an audience. Like it's if you find your format in in find the best ways to you know master that format and tell great stories, you literally can start with zero and build a massive audience. It's the the the opportunity is is open to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Let's talk about that for a second too. So uh there's a trend of having multiple profiles, multiple avatars, you know, basically creating an echo chamber. Uh we in on this, you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Are you talking about clipping or are you talking about something else?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Well, we can talk about both. So um brands or influencers who hire other people to clip on their behalf. That's one thing. Another thing is just simply, let's say it's Gary Vaynerchuk. You know, Gary and I are friends from way back. Uh Gary probably has 30 or 40 Gary channels, right, on each platform. So he's just uh duplicating, replicating, creating multiple accounts. Is this a good strategy? Uh and talk about maybe why he would do it or why he shouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

So for Gary, it makes sense because you got a team of 40 people creating content for him. So, like for him, sure. I for most people, I would not recommend it until you've actually mastered one account. Like you get you've got to master one thing before you kind of expand out. Like, just by creating 10 accounts and creating content for each of the 10 accounts does not mean you're gonna be successful. Again, it comes down to the content. So if you create one account and you create great content and you feel like you could create different types of content for different channels, then sure, go for it. I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. I'm saying for most people, it's not the right strategy.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

It's hard to scale that. Yeah. And talk about what's happening with clippers.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Yeah, I mean, basically, what you know, you you have a lot of um top live streamers, some top YouTubers that that pay um these guys called clippers, which are editors that will take their long-form content and cut it down and uh place it on separate accounts. And based upon the performance of those clips, those clippers get paid. So the better those clips perform, the more they get paid. Uh again, it's a good strategy for those people that already have content that's connecting with an audience. But I don't believe in it as a strategy if somebody hasn't dialed in their own content first.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Yeah, I get a DM from these guys literally every day saying, I'll take your, you know, 60-minute, 90-minute uh interview with Tony Robbins or with Gary or with Brendan and I'll I'll clip it out. Um is this better suited for someone who has a product or service to sell?

SPEAKER_02 41:45

I mean, can you can you can you really need to get an ROI out of it because it costs you money? So you so I mean, even with social media, it's it's the same thing is like, well, what is the end result that you're going after? You have to have some type of benchmark to determine whether you're going to be successful or whether you are being successful. Because just because you generate a lot of views doesn't mean or followers, it doesn't mean it it correlates to dollars. So it's something that once you have like a real model that's dialed in that you know works, it's kind of putting fuel on the fire.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

What should we be measuring? You know, how should we be measuring success?

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Well, for for most people, it's are you generating the return? Are you generating revenue off of the content that you're creating? Now, that doesn't mean Facebook or Instagram, YouTube really paying you. I mean, you can make money off of like YouTube AdSense and and other things, but it it's typically not really the best way to to generate revenue off these platforms. It's really what is the underlying business that you are representing? How do you make money today? And can social media allow you to make more money currently doing what you're doing? So that could be selling products. Um, for some pre people, like for some of our clients, it's getting more speaking engagements, can be book deals, you know, it it can be a number of different things. But I always like to tie it to revenue because if you can correlate the dollars coming in, you're more likely to stick with creating content versus if you don't see dollars coming in, you start questioning why am I spending time creating so much content if I'm not making money off of it?

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, the default ROI or the KPI seems to be views, followers, engagement, watch time, et cetera, which is not a bad, but like to your point, how does that translate into the amount of money that we're spending on the cost of production uh versus the the end result? And you know, one of my more hot high profile case studies that I use is you know, we we built Kevin O'Leary's YouTube channel from zero to hero. And that was how we measured success too. Is um there were several measures of success. One was that Kevin's most uh successful profitable activity was public speaking. You know, he would get uh high six figures between you know 150k and 250k per hour. And so we wanted to increase that from a couple of times a year to a couple of dozen times a year. We also wanted to use the channel uh to market and promote his 20 or 30 Shark Tank investments. We also wanted to do it to audition uh other formats. Uh he was a classically trained chef, he collects uh really expensive watches, guitars, uh he loves cameras, he holds every lens known demand. And so we started auditioning of the shows where he was chef wonderful, a cook. We ended up doing a deal with Q QVC as a result. So yeah, I think um if I'm adding my two cents to how to measure success, I think there's more than one way than just a hundred percent the money. Um, you know, sometimes it even might be finding other team members or collaborators or and I've been Yeah, it's just being super clear on what you what outcome you want.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

And if you're super clear on that outcome and it's delivering that outcome, that's your benchmark for success.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had Malcolm Gladwell on a series, and you know, the ROI of that is just being friends with Malcolm. Uh he and I we're both car guys. We he talks about his restoring uh BMW. Um I make the Porsche's. Um anyway, uh so sometimes it's just friendship. So there's lots of ways to measure, but uh I I think it's important that we you are able to track you know the money you spend your activities back to some sort of return activity. Very smart point. Uh well, I love this conversation. I can talk to you for another six hours, but I respect your time. Um maybe let's have some closing uh thoughts. Um how how do you make money these days? Like what is your main source of revenue? What's important to you? And um we can pull that in so people can find you and find your stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Well, I mean, the most important thing for me is that I I and in each of my three books have the exact same dedication. And it's that I believe there's people all over the world that have the about ability to transform the world in a positive way through their message, their product or services. They just need those insights and that helping hand to break through in this ultra competitive and noisy environment that we find ourselves in. So our entire mission is to help people break through uh on social media through all of our research and our insights uh that we've gleaned in in doing this for for 20 plus years. So basically, we we empower companies um by helping them find their ideal format and giving them the clear blueprint on how to execute that format based upon you know the process that we've talked through uh today.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

And what does that look like? Is it like a consultation? Is it hand holding? Is it is it giving them a playbook?

SPEAKER_02 47:04

Yeah, so we have all different types of scopes that we work with. Um we we have a certain scope where we just give people access to our library of formats and the insights and they can do it completely on their own. Um we have, you know, done with you programs where we can hold your hand all the way through it, or we can just create the strategy for you and and be off and running. So we kind of meet the client, you know, where they're at based upon kind of the stage of their business and the the type of support that they're looking for.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Who's the ideal person you're trying to reach or help with this?

SPEAKER_02 47:36

So the you know, the simplest, the simplest thing, and it and it sounds stupid, but it does matter is first off, somebody who believes that social media is going to help them in their growth. Um, if you don't believe it, like I can't, I'm not gonna try and convince you that social media is, but it's it's really, you know, social media is top of funnel awareness. So this is not direct direct response marketing. Um, it can definitely benefit and accelerate direct response marketing and get you know better results from the pay that you're doing. But we are there to help people that want to build a relationship with an audience, they want to scale a connection with an audience that that ultimately when that trust is built, they will ultimately want to support that brand or that person. So we work with companies that are solopreneurs all the way up to multi-billion dollar corporations. Um, and we work with people that have never used social media all the way up to experts that have millions of followers and subscribers. I think that the common denominator is people that really want to excel at the highest levels of social media. We're not the type of people you go to as like, if you just need a social media to post a manager to post for you, like that's just that's not us. We're there to kind of really decode how you reach that top 1% of social media and breakthrough.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

It sounds like a more like, you know, teach a man to fish kind of philosophy. Yes, you're empowering someone to take the tools and develop them and work into the future.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

I mean, we were just sitting back, you know, chopping it up, reminiscing about the good old days and all that. You know, tracking my roots, where I came from and where I'm going. But like I say, man, I say, man, always said it, it's not about the destination. It's all about the journey. It's all about the journey, but we got it. Ain't nothing changed with the weather, but the weather. The day we carry that aim from the river. Your dreams in the past ain't no way to go. Back street drivers got nothing but two. Got gun riders too fire, stay all liars. But I'm too tired, but I'm never giving up the swamp kinda in my room I don't like it or not. I gotta play it. Should I call the rhyme sometimes, but still say I was quitting at 40 is just a fib. I'm still a kid, wiping the food off of my rib. You ever wanted something so bad that you can taste it? Cried over every opportunity wasted. Good and bad news, which one you want first? Either way, you pick the best, still gon' hurt you the worst. I never got the basket and the fruits of the label. And I never got the cash from that dude from the label. I'm just thinking back.

unknown 50:28

And we go way back, way back, way, way, way back.