Ever feel like the knowledge from a book slips through your memory like sand through your fingers? Frustrated that your team forgets things that they should / need to know? In this episode, Dan, the co-founder of Readwise, joins me to discuss reading retention and some of the great opportunities that modern technology offers to make us better lifelong learners.
Ever feel like the knowledge from a book slips through your memory like sand through your fingers? Frustrated that your team forgets things that they should / need to know? In this episode, Dan, the co-founder of Readwise, joins me to discuss reading retention and some of the great opportunities that modern technology offers to make us better lifelong learners.
Welcome to the sales management podcast, your source for actionable sales management strategies and tactics. I'm your host, coach, crm co-founder, corey Gray. No long intros, no long ads, let's go. My guest today is not a sales leader. He is the founder of a reading technology company. I know a lot of people listening to this podcast read a lot of books. You have your teams read a lot of books, but do you really get out of them what you wanted to? Do you retain that knowledge? Do you apply that knowledge? Do you get better over time and build a foundation for a great career? A lot of us don't. We forget a lot of the things that we read. Sometimes we forget them instantly. Let's change that. Dan Doyin joins us. Co-founder of Readwise, dan welcome.
Speaker 2:Thanks, corey, that was a great intro.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you very much. It's a great company you're building. I've known Dan for a long time. I've known Dan since 2002. Yep, this is nuts. We're getting older, but it's great because we still are young and vibrant. Let's talk about how to keep our minds young and vibrant with reading. What are you guys working on?
Speaker 2:Yes, we've been working on Readwise for about six years now. I think you are our first paying customer back in San Francisco. And what was that? 2017, 2018?
Speaker 1:We yeah a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what Readwise does is it makes it easier to remember more of what you read, or at least that's where we started. Over the past few years we've since built our own reading software really oriented at the non-fiction reader or the person who reads with a purpose or reads for betterment exactly what you describe in your intro Someone who's reading not just to learn but to change their behavior in some way. It might be to advance in their career, improve their personal relationships, find wisdom or happiness, things like that. And the way it works is, first of all, you should be aware we have two products. We have our old, original products that I refer to often as Readwise 1.0, and then we have our newer product called Reader. Readwise 1.0 is really our most popular product still, and probably the most remain for your audience. Which the way that works is.
Speaker 2:It makes it easy to get all your highlights from anything you're reading the physical book, kindle, apple Books, google Playbooks, even non-books. So if you're reading in reading, software like Instapaper or Pocket even makes it easy to save tweets. We get all your highlights into one place, which is a task unto itself, and then, once they're all in one place, we make it easy for you to get value out of them and find ways to retain them and apply them in your work and personal life. Let me do that through two ways. The first way is we have a flagship feature called the Daily Review. It sounds very trivial but it's actually pretty profound and we have people who have done it every day, without missing a day, for five years now.
Speaker 2:Daily Review is an email or it's in our mobile app, where you go and you review a handful of those highlights each day, so it resurfaces things that you read, the best parts of what you read, and we make it easy to get those highlights into your note-taking app or writing app, which some people have very powerful workflows around. And then our newest product, meter, which is still in public beta but still very, very functional. That's a very powerful reading software that gets all your content into one place so you can get any Web article. You can just kind of save it there. You can get PDFs, ebooks, rss feeds, email newsletters. You can bring it all into one place, you can manage it, you can prioritize it, you can highlight it and take notes, you can use GPT and AI to summarize it and ask questions, and that's really the future of our company and what we're doing going forward.
Speaker 1:What's the average experience of somebody that reads a book? What do they remember? What do they forget? Can they apply it? Is it even worth the time, without using what you guys are building just?
Speaker 2:Actually back to kind of the origin story of Revive. I actually kind of stumbled into working on this. I didn't graduate college setting out to be a reading software entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:You started two companies at the exact same time, right, and this was one of the two.
Speaker 2:Well no, I had a background in commercial real estate, private equity, so, like in Wall Street Finance, had an early midlife crisis, decided to quit my job and solo my things. I convinced my girlfriend she was a Goldman Sachs to do the same thing and we traveled the world for a year. During that we were backpacking, so we didn't have room in our backpacks for 10 books or anything. So that's when I became a power user at the Kindle and this gave me a lot of space and I was using that time to try and figure out what do I want to do next in my career and what do I want in life and all that hippie-dippy stuff. And about halfway into that trip I became really frustrated. I was reading a book a week. I became really frustrated that if you just asked me the title of a book I'd read three months ago, I would struggle to remember it. Nevertheless share the key takeaways. And so that was the pain and the spark of inspiration to make the early prototype of RebLives, which was like what if I wrote a script to go and download the highlights I'm making in Kindle? They're posted to a page on the cloud. I took those down and then I reviewed them in this flashcard software. There's this powerful steep learning curve open source software called Anki. What would happen if I put these highlights in Anki and then reviewed them for like five to 10 minutes every morning?
Speaker 2:So I did this with no commercial intent. Like this was not like a startup idea. This is just like a nerdy side project copy of mine. But I found it to be so rewarding that I would like start talking about it with like in conversation with friends, with you, and everyone would be like oh, I have that problem too. Like I read a book, when I'm reading it, I'm like nodding my head and I feel like so inspired and how this is going to solve this problem when working on my life. Then I put it down and nothing changes. I can clearly forget about it. So that's what RebLives helps to partially combat and it will resurface those ideas that you read about, that you were inspired by and hopefully hit you at the right moment to help you take action in your life.
Speaker 1:Fascinating. So there's some brain science behind this, right With things like spaced repetition and how many times you have to see something to convert it from short-term memory to long-term memory.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's this learning algorithm it's about a hundred years old called space repetition. That is this idea that you need to see an idea, see a fact, see a piece of knowledge, however you wanna define it repeatedly in order to be able to remember it and recall it when you need it. And what's this one scientist named I don't remember his first name, but his last name was Ebbinghaus found was that the most efficient timeframe to see this stuff would operate on a curve that would decline over time. So that's the space repetition.
Speaker 2:So if something comes to you easily, you might need to see that thing again in two weeks to make sure that you don't lose that fact from your mind and it becomes too hard to recall. And then, after you see it after two weeks, you might need to see it the next time after four weeks because the memory has been strengthened, and then maybe after four, you might need to see it in eight weeks. So there's an algorithm and the idea there is if you saw it sooner, then two weeks or four weeks, and then eight weeks, you'd be over learning and you'd be wasting time because you didn't need to see it at that point. So this tries to strike the balance between, like the least amount of effort in time to maximize your memory and recall. So Revise uses a version of a space repetition algorithm in it and then it also uses a little bit of randomness to kind of go random full climbing. But it uses those two things to try and make sure that these things don't get out of memory too far.
Speaker 1:So if a sales team has an onboarding program and they take all their new hires and they run them through it for two weeks or four weeks and they just teach them a bunch of stuff, if they were to put a and it doesn't need to be in the context of your product, but if they were gonna put a space repetition program in the place to make sure that those initial steps were reinforced people actually knew the stuff, they were able to actually do it Ballpark how long would that program need to last for it to actually be effective without people just forgetting all of those things? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a great like B2B enterprise SaaS opportunity.
Speaker 2:I've never I've heard of people talking about it, but I've never seen someone actually build it and execute on it to solve that problem where companies will invest a lot in upfront training Of new hires and they'll do all the educational component, but they won't do anything to help them retain that education component, which is very costly. I mean, like the, there's a first principle about retention, right. Like if you're trying to get stronger, you first try to not lose muscle. If you're trying to make money investing, you first try to not lose money. If you're trying to build a subscription or software as a service business, you try and solve it.
Speaker 2:Software as a service business, you try and solve churn before you solve growth right. And it's the same thing with knowledge you try and solve forgetting before you go and you pile on more knowledge. To answer your question directly, though, I don't think there's like a timeframe, like you do it for three months and then you stop. I think it's the type of thing where people just do it for 30 minutes a week the first week and then that gradually declines, but they're always doing a few minutes per week thereafter and that way they won't lose that knowledge.
Speaker 1:So they're solving for forgetting. That means that they probably need to measure forgetting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's how spaced repetition algorithms work is. After you're presented with an idea or a fact, you give the system some feedback on how well you remembered it. If you remembered it really well, you don't need to see it soon. If you struggle to remember, you need to see it sooner. If you forgot it completely, you need to relearn it and then kind of restart the clock there.
Speaker 1:Right. So one of my concerns here in the sales space is people might feel like this is too juvenile for them. Well, I learned it, I'm good, I'm a professional, we're 40, we're good. How do you get somebody that's 40 to buy into this concept? I know that you've got a lot of folks but you're on the consumer side. They're doing it because they want to, because they realize the value of it. They see the value. Do you have any stories about folks that were initially skeptical and all of a sudden they realized, holy cow, this works, I'm gonna start using it like crazy. And then they pick up adoption?
Speaker 2:We haven't yet gotten to the, I think, the part in our journey where we're so good that we're like resetting beliefs. I personally I mean we won't hire someone who doesn't have a growth mindset and isn't always like striving to better and improve themselves.
Speaker 1:I find that's so this is interesting. So now it now it fits into the hiring profile and people use the word growth mindset.
Speaker 2:Someone is opposed to leveling up, like do you act? Even 40 isn't that old? Like yes, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks because the return on time invested is less right. Like if you learn something at 20, you've got maybe 40 years to use that. If you learn something at 40, you maybe have 20 years. But even at 40, if someone's unwilling to level up their career and like learn new stuff, do you even want them? Like look at how fast the world is changing. Like the things you need to know to be efficient today. Like working with like GPT that didn't exist 20 years ago. Like you just need to keep learning to be confident.
Speaker 1:It didn't exist 20 months ago. Well, for some people in the know it probably did, but out for the rest of us wow, what is this new thing? Yeah, that's interesting because people talk about a growth mindset a lot. It's a word that's throwing, a phrase that's thrown around, but I don't think that a lot of folks have a real clear definition of what that means.
Speaker 2:And in this case I mean I think so. It comes from this book, very one of the most popular pop science psychology books in the past like 30 years, called Mindset, by Carol DeWack, I think. Like most psychological studies it's been failed to replicate and getting debunked so I think it's just more like just a popular term to talk about someone. So in that book she posits that there are two mindsets there's a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. A fixed mindset in your context would be whether or not you're a good salesperson is kind of fixed in your youth, right Like you kind of are. Who you are. An elite salesperson is just born that way. That's a fixed mindset. So either you're good or bad and that's the way you are. The growth mindset is I am not fixed. I can become better or I can stay worse and I have control or influence over that by the actions I take.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can pick up triangle selling and learn some things.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's a lot of stuff in that book about like how you reinforce behavior. For example, if you want a child to develop a growth mindset, you don't tell them like you're smart or you're dumb those are indicators of a fixed mindset. Instead you like kind of reward like you studied so hard for that task, great job, right, like so if they get like a good grade, you don't reinforce that by complimenting them on how intelligent they are. Instead you compliment like their effort or their creativity or their the inputs, as opposed to some sort of like personality trait.
Speaker 1:Got it. So if somebody's sitting here and thinking, okay, maybe I have more of a fixed mindset than I need, I need to goose up this growth mindset. What's the time investment that you see on a weekly basis? That really helps drive that continuous learning. Stop the forgetting and just build up the stronger knowledge basis, skill base over time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we typically don't think about it that way because we are on the consumer side, like you mentioned. So everyone who comes to Revise and uses Revise is reading something because they were intrinsically motivated to read it. What I mean by that is no one was telling them here, this is an assignment, you need to read it, like you're in school or something. So already the person was like I am committed to becoming a better salesperson or I'm committed to learning product management, and that's the gradual process. But what we do find is our software helps people get maybe two to three times more return on time invested in reading that book, as measured by like how much they report remembering and using it. So yeah, I didn't answer your question at all. It's hard to answer in those terms.
Speaker 1:So the time investment may vary from person to person, but you can see returns of two to three times in terms of what they're able to get out of it if they do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is something I am able to quantify.
Speaker 1:Yeah everybody is different. Right, people are going to learn things at different rates, they're going to put different levels of concentration and effort and things like that. But the point is that if they figure out what's right for them, then they're going to see these exponential returns where it's two to three X.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the thing we haven't learned how to create is the motivation. Everyone who's coming to us is already motivated, is already inspired to improve themselves in some way or seek betterment in some way. So unfortunately, I don't have a solution for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think that motivation is often driven by outcomes and is driven by things like social proof, senior peers, and so if you've got a group of folks that are, maybe you do a book club and everybody in the book club reads the Five Secrets of the Sales Coach. If any book clubs out there want to check out the Five Secrets of the Sales Coach, I'll send your team free copies on Kindle. Send a note to freestuffatcoachcremcom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or they can hook them up.
Speaker 1:We can hook it up in Reader. Yeah, so send a note to freestuffatcoachcremcom and I'll get it to you in Readwise Reader. How about that? There we go. Perfect. So if you've got a book club and you've got some people say you got 10 managers and they all read the Five Secrets of the Sales Coach, Well, if two of them are in Reader and doing your program and going back in and reviewing their highlights and all of those types of things, and all of a sudden those are the folks that are out there crushing it with their team. They're executing their coaching conversations Great. They're doing a really good job of diagnosing and prioritizing what they need to work on and they're keeping their boss off their back because they're doing a great job. All of a sudden, there's other eight people that aren't doing it. They're going to see this group and you might get some convergence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, being left behind is definitely a great motivator for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Do you see people using this with?
Speaker 2:their kids. I know for me, when I'm feeling like jealousy or envy, that definitely is a kick in my ass to go in and fix the problem.
Speaker 1:I love it. Do you see people using this with their kids? There's a more of an adult thing at this point.
Speaker 2:It's an adult thing just because kids are already so overloaded with stuff that they're forced to read for coursework and whatnot. We do see some teenagers and I'm like man, if I had this when I was a teenager, I don't even know where I'd be right now. I wouldn't be talking to you, I'd be on a sailboat in the Mediterranean or something. I think of just all the time I spent in my 20s trying to level up and reading. That was just so much more efficient. My business partner, tristan Heena. He's 27. I'm very envious of him. He's already wiser than both of us.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. Yeah, because he's got the tools and he's actually using them.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the risks.
Speaker 2:How about the compalence? If you set this foundation, it just starts to compound.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fascinating. We lose a lot of this. A lot of folks stop the formal structured learning the minute that they get that degree or diploma. All of a sudden they're like, yeah, I'm just going to go through the rest of life.
Speaker 2:What's structured learning sucks? This is informal, unguided learning. It's just kind of reading what you're interested in and what you're drawn towards, which I think accords with most people much better than school. Is it just kind of following what interests you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. Well, a couple other things that are directly applicable to our audience are things like well, if you're managing a person that wants to get into a different role, this could be a great way to help jumpstart that. If you're mentoring or coaching someone, maybe they're in a prospecting role and they say, hey look, sales isn't for me, I want to get into customer success. There's amazing customer success books out there. If you read the books and do some of the things that you're talking about, they're going to kill it in that interview. Or if they're in sales and they want to get the leadership, how many leadership books are there out there? There's unlimited. When they go interview for that management job, think about the difference between somebody who has gone through what you're describing now and has that knowledge well ingrained in their brain. When they get into those interviews for those leadership jobs, they're going to be heads and shoulders above everybody else that they're competing against.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I made that personal journey. I come from an investing background and now I make software, which is a complete pivot of my career in my mid 30s. Obviously, I don't think either of us believe that you can just learn how to change your career through reading alone, like just reading articles and books and listening to podcasts isn't going to complete that transformation. However, it's a huge component and will greatly support the combination of real world practical experience combined with reading and then reinforcing those topics Like that's how you pull off one of these transformations.
Speaker 1:Have you heard Saul Khan talk about his Swiss cheese analogy?
Speaker 2:That's the Khan Academy guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but I have heard him talk about a pyramid analogy, which is like math knowledge is like a pyramid, where if you miss a block building up that pyramid, you can't build the higher layers, which really resonates with me, because I think I missed like logarithms or something in eighth grade and that really held me back and, like my higher level mathematics, I'm like man. If I had Khan Academy growing up, who knows, Exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, that's his whole principle. Yeah, the Swiss cheese things basically there's holes in the cheese and sometimes they're really big, sometimes they're small and it's up to you if you're going to fill them in or not. And the idea is that in school they just work you through the year and then you're done. You get a D, you're done. You get an A plus, you're done. You move on to the next thing and, like you said, you're just building this house of cards and we see this in business, we see it in sales leadership a lot, where folks have built a career out of a house of cards. They're very good at one, two or three things. They miss out on all of these other things that they need to be building up.
Speaker 1:You've got we've worked with a lot of folks that, yeah, they've worked at bigger companies. They were in sales leadership. They go work at a smaller company. They don't have sales engineers anymore. They don't have dashboards already built out for them, they don't have collateral from product marketing and all of these other things. They don't have a sales operations team. Maybe they've got somebody that can do a Salesforce admin job, but nobody that can actually do what needs to get done. And, by the way, they've never hired vendors because they had people to do that for them as well. So, even if you're in a world where you've been successful in one pocket of the business world, how do you transition to something else? Go from late stage to early stage, go from sales leadership to chief revenue officer, something like that. Same principles apply. You got to build that up.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah.
Speaker 2:There was like head underwater experiences, like when it feels like you're just overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:For me, the way I solve those situations and I find myself in them constantly is I just kind of load up a bunch of articles and books and I start reading and trying to kind of make sense the world while at the same time working on it in real life and in the real battlefield. Yeah, we just recently had a transition in our company where we've been growing in terms of staff. It used to be just me and my partner for several years, but then we started to add more people and realize, like man, we have no formal discipline for product management, for how we set strategy, for how we communicate our initiatives and why we're working on what and how that relates to the broader strategy and how we make sure that everyone's kind of aligned and rolling in the same direction. Really hard to do with a remote company but important to do, obviously, particularly in a small startup. So I had to read like three books on product management. I loaded up like maybe 50 articles and kind of made sense of it and then applied that to our company.
Speaker 1:What was your favorite product management book?
Speaker 2:It's called Escaping the Build Trap by Melissa Perry. In fact, the other two I read sucked. I would only read this one. The problem with most product management literature is it's focused on Google style or Facebook slash Meta style product management. I call that post product market fit. So it's focused on these really large bureaucracies where a product manager can focus on a tiny segment like the authentication screen. That does not help us a pre-product market fit startup whatsoever. In fact it actively hurts. So when seeking product management advice, you have to be very disciplined in filtering out the wrong side. So if your pre-product market fit, you can't listen to all this careerist. Get a job at Google PM advice and vice versa. Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've found it really helpful to learn things like this. Even if you're not in product management just knowing what they do and being able to work with them as teammates, you're obviously in a spot where you're leading them. But even if you're in a world where you're a peer, you don't know what your peers do. It makes work really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, a company is kind of like a machine. If you don't understand all the different parts, it's hard to influence that machine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially when product management I mean we have in the sales world there's a big issue where a product's launched and they do product training, and the product training is often focused on what the features do. And then the team wants to give credit to the product manager and the engineers and, hey, everybody, great job, come present what you made. And they come and present it and they say, hey, look, here's what it does. And then the sales people go out and they say, hey, market, here's what it does. But they don't understand the specific pain points it solves for, or why that matters, or for what person is in what market segment, and things like that. So then it's this big translation exercise. I feel like if the sales team understands a little bit more about what's going on in the product side from identifying what to build, to building it, to shipping it, to QA and all those types of things it makes life easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we're seeing that trend in product management, a big product management. Right now, airbnb is kind of leading this charge. I'm not sure if you saw, but they've basically restructured all their product managers to become what's known as a product marketing manager. So they require the product managers to also not just be able to describe the feature but to sell the benefits and kind of carry it through to the market and explain not just what it does or how it does it, but like why they should care, which I think speaks to what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I listened to Brancheski on the this week in Star Wars podcast. It was when I was in Spain, so that was in May. By the way, thank you so much. I don't think I've talked to you since this. Thank you so much for motivating me to put all my stuff in storage and go travel around. So Dan did this years ago and I was always saying, man, I want to do that one day. And I found myself in a position to do it. So I put all my stuff in storage and I've been living in Airbnb since February. It's currently August, so had a nice run so far.
Speaker 2:Nice. I managed to do it for four and a half years. Covid unfortunately killed that lifestyle for me because all the normies jumped in, but I had a good run.
Speaker 1:That's funny. Yeah, the problem is now I like Austin, so I might stay here, but we'll see. Not committing to anything yet.
Speaker 2:If we didn't have to live near my wife's family, Austin would be one of my top two spots.
Speaker 1:It's fun. There's so much great stuff to do in the business scene. It's not what San Francisco was when we lived in San Francisco for startups, but it's kind of getting there.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:So that's good. I think. The other thing I want to point out that you touched on but haven't specifically highlighted is we're not just talking about books, we're talking about articles, anything that's written, and I guess this could include let me throw this out there If a company has, wow, this is really interesting. Okay, I might get you some customers from this one. I know you're not doing B2B, but people can do this for their own companies. Imagine a company has 25 case studies on their website. They've got 25 companies that their company's worked with where they've solved specific problems for specific personas in specific market segments and the sales leadership teams banging their head against the wall because the sales people don't know these. They use the same one or two in every meeting. They try to fit a square peg in a round hole, and that's what's going on, because they've not taken the time to internalize and actually understand what these stories are. You can use Readwise for that, can't you?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, of course. So our reading application that we just call Reader right now. Eventually it'll just be called Readwise, because we'll unify the two products. It's primary value proposition as it gets all your content in one place. Reading right now is extremely fragmented. You might read a book on paper or a Kindle, an article in a tab in your browser, a newsletter in your email client, pdf in like Adobe Acrobat or something, and this application brings it all into one place. But in terms of reading for Betterment or reading to level up in your career, books are very much a lagging indicator At the pace the world is moving right now. It takes if something new happens, it might be two years before a comprehensive, well-written book comes out on that topic, and it doesn't make sense to wait for that. So you need to be reading things like a curated list of Twitter follows, which Reader also handles RSS feeds and an article is on the topic, to stay ahead.
Speaker 1:Is Chad GPT gonna ruin books?
Speaker 2:I don't see that at all. What's the? I don't even know what the argument is that chat GPT would ruin books.
Speaker 1:The idiots are going to write books using chat GPT.
Speaker 2:I mean, only an idiot would read the book written by chat GPT and, if it's good, like who cares.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. So, basically, what's going to happen is, as soon as that hits the market, somebody's going to write a one-story Amazon review that says this was written by chat GPT and nobody's going to read it.
Speaker 2:I mean, if it's genuinely good, who cares who wrote it? But I mean, if you pick up a book and you start to read it and it's not doing anything for you, you'd have to be insane to continue to read it. I'd like you down and find a better one, move on. Yeah, so that doesn't really concern me at all. I think GPT is just going to improve the book reading experience by making it more interactive, by filling in those Swiss cheese bowls that you talked about before. Let's say, I pick up a book, you threw out a bunch of sales terms that I don't know, like sales operation and admins and whatnot. I don't know what those mean. But, gpt, if I'm reading that book, I can highlight those words and have it explain to me what that is.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, okay, so you're in the book and you have a real-time reading assistant. It's like a side note. What's the book? I like Albert Green, 52 Laws of Power, how he has the side notes on many pages.
Speaker 2:A reader has this now. I mean this is not hard. I think this will make it into all reading software over time. We have it now so you can highlight the sales operations and ask it to explain how that term is used in the book. So it's not just like going and finding an encyclopedia definition, but it's actually scoping it to the book itself and it's like you have a little teaching assistant alongside you filling in the gaps and you don't have to be embarrassed in class like raising your hand and being like I don't know what sales operations means. Can you tell me? Yeah, just filling in holes in the Swiss cheese left and right.
Speaker 1:I love it. Man, this is great, cool. We're pretty much out of time. Anything that you want to leave us with, and then how can folks get in touch with you and check out what you're building?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so our URL is readwiseio. We actually just acquired thecom so you could use readwisecom, but we haven't migrated everything there and folks can onboard and start trialing the project that way. We should probably spend up a link for you where people can get an extra 30 days. Can you make that a readwiseio slash? Do you want coach CRM?
Speaker 1:There we go. Io slash coach CRM for your free 30 day trial 60 days, 60 days oh wow, look at this.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:What a giver. Yeah, I love it Well, Dan. Thank you so much, Dan Doyle, and from readwise, this is the sales management podcast. If you want to check out a free version of coach CRM not just a trial, we've got a free version Go to coachcrmcom. I'm Corey Bray. Subscribe to us Apple Spotify sales management podcast. See you next time.