Sales Management Podcast
Cory Bray, 8x author and co-founder of CoachCRM, digs into hot sales management topics.
Sales Management Podcast
90. Why your sales org is moving at half speed with Pete Kazanjy
There is a massive sales performance gap in many orgs, and there are some key things driving it that are fully within your control. No one has thought more about this topic than Atrium cofounder Pete Kazanjy. Check out this episode and make sure to follow him on LinkedIn for more insights.
Welcome to the Sales Management Podcast, your source for actionable sales management strategies and tactics. I'm your host, coach CRM co-founder, corey Gray. No long intros, no long ads, let's go.
Speaker 2:All right, no long intros.
Speaker 1:Goofy Pete Kazanji over here who's waving at me, making me laugh during my intros. So we probably put a pre-taped intro over the top of this one, but we're having some fun today and we're going to talk about the sales performance gap Pete, we certainly are.
Speaker 2:We're going to be talking about why it feels like your sales organization is moving at half speed.
Speaker 1:Half speed. Half speed is not a good speed for a sales organization. We want them to be at about a hundred percent speed.
Speaker 2:I would I mean, or I don't know about you, man, but I like my sales organizations at 120% speed.
Speaker 1:I think that works.
Speaker 2:So so like 50% speed is like something is super F'd.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so let's let's start with. What does 50% speed look like? What are some of the symptoms that people are observing out there?
Speaker 2:They're like wait a second, that's my's, my sales organization ah, what would be the discovery, the provocative discovery questions we would ask in order to figure out whether or not, uh, I mean like, essentially, just like it feels like your reps are low activity. Yeah, you inspect calendars and you're like, are, did this rep really have five customer facing meetings this week? Did they? Did they have last week too, the week before that? So, like low customer, like low customer facing activity, I think like from a, from a selling standpoint, right, like you know, face to face standpoint.
Speaker 2:So like that'd be one thing, um same with like other sort of things, like pipe gen activity, right where we're like, oh well, we say that we're supposed to be doing pipe gen, but every time I go on, I actually inspect as to whether or not, like the outputs are there, like opportunity creation or what have you, and then also then go and look for the inputs associated there with, like you know, email volume or calling volume or whatever.
Speaker 2:You're like, oh, we say we do do pipe gen, but actually it seems that we just say that we do that versus actually, versus actually doing. Yeah, like these, these are sort of the things and then like, and then maybe a more like vibes version of that would be like man, like our pipe hygiene is like really not great. Like like look at all these like untouched opportunities, like there's very few marketing, like marketing driven opportunities right now are like inbound hand raisers and like somehow you don't have a meeting on the calendar with them or it's been untouched for like two weeks, like yikes, like those are the sort of things that you would see where you'd be. Like what is going on here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there's there's really something going on, because between the two of us we probably look at more people's calendars than hardly anybody. I bet that we're in the top one percentile of how many calendars we look at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally. And also like the other behavioral stuff, right, Like the activity stuff as well, like, so, I think, the thing I've taught. I talked with a lot of CROs. Excuse me, what should I say? What's the popular thing to say this on LinkedIn?
Speaker 1:CROs. Excuse me, what should I say? What's the popular thing to say this on LinkedIn? Oh, last week I met with 21 of the top CROs in the world and we had a private meeting that you weren't invited to, and let me tell you what they said, since you weren't there.
Speaker 2:Oh, excuse me, you only did 21. I did 30. Yeah, I think I've stuck with a lot of leaders and a lot of founders and and a lot of people are kind of like, dude, am I just like taking crazy pills right now? Or are people kind of like a lot of organizations are like a lot of people are working at half speed and then, and kind of like, okay, with working at half speed, and when I was a bdr at oracle 15 years ago or whatever, like I would have gotten like tossed out of the organization for this sort of thing. Or like when I was a smb rep, uh, in 2012 or whatever, like you know, like this would have been insane.
Speaker 2:Right, like these, these sort of behaviors. And so why like? Why are people like one? Why is the? Why is the performance like that?
Speaker 2:And then also two like why are people not like, uh, like aware of the fact? Like why are they not like, oh boy, my, like my performance is here and it's a bad thing? Versus like, yeah, my performance is here, but like I'm great, right, yeah, yeah. Or just like, yeah, that's just how it goes.
Speaker 2:Versus like, oh, dude, like you should like, like you should be like scared and like like trying to figure it out, because like five customer facing meetings a week is like totally not okay and like saying that you're going to do pg tuesdays and not doing pg tuesdays is, and like saying that you're going to do PG Tuesdays and not doing PG Tuesdays is actually like you know, saying you're going to do a thing and then not actually not doing anything is actually like, or especially like I don't know leaving your manager on red, or like ghosting.
Speaker 2:Ghosting your manager or ghosting your CRO on a commitment is like actually not okay. Right, and so I've, I've kind of been thinking a lot about like so a lot of leaders are like, yeah, man, like I'm seeing this, like where's it coming from? And I've been like thinking about it quite a bit around, like where it comes from, and then also like what to do about it from a remediation standpoint and and like yeah, like I, I would love to talk about that because I think I think it's there's some very clear things that have driven this over the last 10 years that are surmountable. You just have to admit that like current state is like totally not okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right. Well, let's let's start with where they came from. Where did these things come from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's a large. It's a combination of things, and I think one of the things that people kind of get like grumpy at me about is they're like, oh, you're like blaming X, y, z. I'm like no, I'm not like like this is something I've been teaching my seven-year-old recently is like the notion of contributive fault, right. Like there are many like contributions to a problem state and but like but. The answer to that is to not pretend that it's not a problem state. The answer to that is to like solve the problem Right, and so like there, there's a number of contributions to it. Like I think the biggest ones that I've identified is zero interest rate policy over the last 10 years since the great financial crisis drove a lot of silly business, and we'll talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:I do think like I'm a technologist and I'm a and I I make sales tech right.
Speaker 2:Like you know, I'm one of the founders of of Atrium and we make performance management software and I and so like I'm a fan of technology, but on the flip side, you have to be aware of, like the the potential negative implications of technology, and so like sales engagement and automation software, like the outreaches on the sales left of the world.
Speaker 2:I think that actually had a non-intuitive contribution to the kind of the current state of sales performance, just based on some of the muscles that weren't being built in new hires in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019.
Speaker 2:I think that work from home isn't helping organizations like the performance situation with a lot of junior reps, both from an upbringing standpoint and then an ongoing, and then also, I think that the reinforcement loops that you get from social media, and especially that algorithmic feeds that prioritize things that are fun and engaging versus things that are like real and maybe like less fun and less engaging um, all of those things kind of like are are contributing to the the kind of the current performance state, and I think the reality is is that there's yeah, there's solutions to all these different things, but it's going to take a lot of like what I like to call like deprogramming on the part of leaders to emphasize this to you know, their 24 year old reps, their 26 year old reps, their you know 28 year old reps, and also like, and then also the managers who came up through that environment as well.
Speaker 1:Right, so those are the big kind of like drivers that I've at least that I figured out yeah, a lot of things in there and they're big things too, and it feels like a culture shift as opposed to just a thorn in the side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I think there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done to kind of fix it. So like, okay, let's use the zero interest rate phenomenon stuff. So like, if people don't know, corey, aside from being, you know, a sales leader and an enablement you know thinker and kind of like a you know top tier sales coach, also has a background in, like, business and economics and what have you. And so one of the things that people don't like, really don't appreciate, is that, like the great financial crisis 2008, 2009, 2008, 2009, the bottom fell out of the housing market, etc. Etc. The Federal Reserve dropped interest rates to zero for four years. I'm looking at the chart right now Six years Zero interest rate, and so what that meant was there was lots of money available to organizations, so what that did was big investors could then pick up capital and also big pools of capital were looking for places to invest, and what that did was it had to go somewhere.
Speaker 1:It couldn't go into fixed income assets because a fixed income asset, a bond, is paying 0%, so it's got to go somewhere.
Speaker 2:It's got to go somewhere, right, it's got to go somewhere. And so one of the places where that went is it went into venture investing, right. And so you actually see this where, starting in 2012, 2013, 2014, venture investment starts going up, but then really in like 2015 and then going, and then, like in 2019, it really started spiking. So you had that, and then like cross that with like COVID, which then, like you know, interest rates started like creeping up in like 2018 and 2019, but then 2020 dropped again in response to COVID, plus a bunch of COVID stimulus that came on. So essentially, you just had all this money into the system. So what happened was one you had a bunch of organizations that were looking to buy stuff, right. You had a bunch of organizations that were hiring a bunch of sellers right, doing just like a bunch of economic activity, and so what that meant was you had sellers who could, just like you had fish that were like jumping into the boat, yeah, right, and and so, like you saw this with like nrr and quota attainment, so like quota attainment that exists, that like as it was in, you know, the zero interest rate environment and then, especially, to get to like a super fever pitch in like 2021 and 2022. It's not like normal, right?
Speaker 2:So the the behavior, so the notion of like oh yeah, like marketing can spend a bunch of money because they have a big budget, and there's a bunch of like buyers in the market who are like what am I going to buy? I'm going to go shopping because they have a bunch of budget, which also came from Zerb, right. And so then they're like so, oh, okay, a bunch of inbound leads. I guess, like, I don't have to do my pipe gen, right? Or oh, we have a bunch of money, so we're going to hire a bunch of SDRs, so we're going to have a one-to-one SDR to AE ratio. I don't have to do a lot of pipe gen and I don't have to do pipe hygiene, and also my win rates are really high.
Speaker 2:So I guess I could have a couple of meetings a day and these guys are going to buy, they're going to buy at a high ASP, and then, moreover, I don't have to really like, hector, these ops and work really hard on them, because I can just like strip line and be like Ooh, like, if you're not into it, I know that there's going to be more inbound leads tomorrow, so, like, just let me know if you're going to buy.
Speaker 2:That's the sort of like that behavior is was like momentary, right, it's like momentary. And so when you have folks who came up in that environment versus folks who came up, you know, selling in the 2000s or even at the beginning of the Zerp era, in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013,. Before things got really crazy, the behaviors are very different. And so I think that's a very big contributor to that erroneous expectation of what it takes, to that like kind of erroneous expectation of like what it takes like from a behavioral standpoint, to hit, to hit quota and be successful in in a selling environment, in a non-zerp selling environment right exactly.
Speaker 1:There's not fish jumping in the boat. I think is a great way to put it yeah, it's like that's not really happening anymore.
Speaker 2:And then I think the other thing too, another kind of like big contributor here, is so like we're talking about the demand environment and like win rates and so on and so forth. There's also the managerial environment as well, right? So you know when, when folks like you or you know, folks are even like you know, maybe our age, kind of like in their late 30s, early 40s or, you know, or even older than that, when they think back to like how they were managed in, like coming up in the 2000s or the 2010s or whatever, it's very different, like very different behaviorally, because in order to enforce the behaviors that were required back then to have success, right, like the behaviors are not fun right.
Speaker 2:Like having 25 customer facing meetings a week is like it's like work that's hard work. A week is like it's like it's like work, that's hard work. Yeah, it's like. It's like it's like athletic right, no-transcript, like all those sort of so. So it's just like wow, like this is yeah, it's. It's like championship. You know, championship, uh uh, basketball or whatever. There's a lot of attention going on, so the managers are going to be on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, they're going to be like there's gonna be a lot of scrutiny. Micromanagement oh, did you mean management? Did you just mean you meant management? When you said micromanagement got it okay, cool, and so the um and so, and so people like, and that's like what's required for success there. But then, like, add in this zerp stuff, and it's a minute. Actually there's a ton of money sloshing around, right, the win rates are super high. I guess we don't have to manage very proactively on the front foot. Also, oh boy, there's a ton of money sloshing around to hire sellers. And so if I am on the front foot and I am proactive in my management, right, and I and I'm, and I try to enforce accountability and rigor in my organization even, like, because I know it's good and it develops good athletes yeah well.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, like maybe that doesn't feel super well, like super great because, like it turns out that conditioning and wind sprints and like, actually sorry, you ran that play incorrectly, you need to go back and run it again. That doesn't feel. That's like not type one fun, that's like type two fun. Like, looking back, you're like man. I'm glad that coach really made me, you know, do those things, Cause I'm great at the moment. You're like man. This guy sucks Right. It takes a very mature athlete or seller to like have the perspective of like, no, this is good, this is good, I'm going to look back on this.
Speaker 2:And so what managers? So what you had was a bunch of people who would like leave organizations because like, hey, I'm going to go over here. Oh yeah, Like I'm going to go from being an SDR to an enterprise SDR, to a, to a rep, to whatever you know, in that's like 12 months. Is that that a promotion path? Right? And so you had managers who were like afraid of proactively managing and proactively coaching because, like, you can't lose that quota capacity, Right? And so and, and and so what? Not to mention the fact that you have all this stimulus dropping on the economy, where someone's like well, I just got my 2K STEMI check and my student loans are suspended right now anyway. So, yeah, you know what? Maybe I'll just like go like take a trip to Tulum for like a month or two and then come back and see you know who Tiger Global or Kotu has funded most recently, and I'll go work there, right, and so, like that's the and. So you can imagine, if you're a manager, you're like oh my goodness, like I can't sneeze because I'm going to lose this quota capacity. So instead what I'm going to do is I'm going to be very permissive, etc. And so, like this and and so you you would see this in the quit rates it's like hysterical. If you look at the quit rates over time, um, for different kind of age cohorts, like they're 100 aligned with, like stimulus drops during, during, oh, dude, dude, it's hysterical.
Speaker 2:And so if you're a manager, you're kind of like so what you have is you have a bunch of folks who kind of came up through this environment where it's like oh yeah, leads, there's constant hand raisers, deals, close themselves themselves.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, like you know, micromanagement et cetera is is if the manager actually like, does any sort of inspection whatsoever Right and and if I don't, and, by the way, I should get promoted every six months and and like that was like that obviously is not the real world Right, and so you know. And so Zerp kind of precipitated that and it got to a real fever pitch in 2020, 2021 and 2022. And so you have to think about the cohort of folks who kind of ran through that and also came up in it, both from a rep standpoint, also their reps who got promoted to managers, who are like oh, like they've only seen what management quote unquote sales management looks like in 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021. And now they're a manager, but their managerial conception was predicated on like false physics of a marketing environment. So those are some of the Zerp impacts there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, I've run into so many companies where you didn't even have to be good and you could hit quota. You just had to show up and not be a jerk in that period.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like some and some solutions have that too, where they have just like insane product market fit, like I would imagine that, like the sales team and open AI like makes it rain because, like, the product is like absolutely sick, right, but if, like, not everyone has that product, right, and and so I think that the reality is, is that, like you know what is required for, for you know, selling success in a what are interest rates right now? 5%, 4%, I can't even remember what it is Uncle, uncle Jerome is going to drop them in, you know, at the end of, at the end of September, a little bit, probably 25 bips, right, that, like the stuff that would like, the stuff that got you by in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and certainly in 2021 and 2022, is like not going to get, like it's not going to be the thing that's going to make you successful in 2025 and like beyond, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and we've got to recognize that from different levels so executive level, manager level, rep level and I don't think everybody's motivated to recognize that now and motivated to change. Why now, yeah, I mean, why not later?
Speaker 2:there's a saying that we have in Houston called yeah, I think you're right, because I think I've been thinking about this a lot from like a behavioral or sorry, like uh, evolutionary psychology standpoint. What have you? It's like how long like so humans, like they, they do have to change over time, right, but there's like a, there's like a homeostasis to it where, like you don't want to like constantly, be like whipping back and forth, but people do react to, to like new stimulus, right, and like the same way that they reacted to new stimulus, like the same way that they reacted to new stimulus like literal stimulus in 20, 2019, 2020, 21, etc. Etc. And um, and I think the important thing, like so in this case, where it's just like man, you see your friends get laid off, and like it's like the, the lady who recorded the, the seller who recorded herself getting laid off by, by cloudflare, talk about a career limiting behavior, um, and like she posted a, a post on linkedin, like like eight months later, saying like hey, I still haven't gotten hired, he's still unemployed. I think she got a job recently at um, it was like I like ibm or something.
Speaker 2:But the point is, is that like well, there's kind of two things there, like one, that information of just like, wow, I don't want to get laid off, right, um, like, I have to pay my, I have to have to pay my student loans, right, like, wow, um, you know costs on my credit cards, or like whatever is, like you know, index off of um five percent interest rates as well, um, like I, like I have financial implications associated with performance. Oh, and, my friends I'm seeing friends who are out of work for like six months, nine months, etc. Etc. I think that's a thing that will change perceptions there. And the problem is is like how, how quickly those that information gets spread around, which you know, to kind of jump forward, the, the social media stuff, like certainly doesn't help with that, right, and the, and the reason why and I'll, and I can kind of share this, I think you and I joke about this stuff a lot is the way that social media like and like this is kind of the downside of like LinkedIn turning into like work, tiktok.
Speaker 2:Is that the way that these algorithmic feeds work is that at any given point in time, there's like all these different you know content objects, like posts, right Posts in Instagram posts, in Twitter posts, in you know, facebook posts and LinkedIn there's in Instagram posts, in Twitter posts, in Facebook posts, in LinkedIn. There's all these different posts that could be presented to you and, of course, what the algorithm wants to do is it wants to present to you the thing that is most engaging, because it wants you to spend time on there so they can serve more advertisements, right? So the way that the algo knows that the thing is compelling and high, know, high engagement is by you. Know how many likes it gets, how many comments it gets. You see people doing this stuff on linkedin all the time like comment for you know getting my pdf of xyz, um.
Speaker 2:But in general yeah, but but in general, what ends up happening is the thing like there's a there's a fee of a feedback loop there, and so the things that get a lot of likes, the things that people spend a lot of time on, right, there's a feedback loop there, and so the things that get a lot of likes, the things that people spend a lot of time on, there's like linger time. That was like TikTok's big innovation and like LinkedIn does this too. Those things end up at the top of the feed, and this is why, when you open LinkedIn every time there's like a selfie of someone, like because humans see eyes and they like look immediately, or like they see skin. I know that you're a big fan of, like tank top selfies um, they're the best, and yeah, well and so, and so like those, so like. You have to think about the types of content that are high engagement, and so it would be things like so-and-so got a new job right, so-and-so got promoted. Yeah, so-and-so, got a new job right, so-and-so got promoted.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So-and-so hit quota, right, these are things. It's the professional equivalent of the thing that happens on Instagram, where everyone's always on vacation, right, yeah, like, everyone's always on vacation, and the reason why is because they take. Like, when you're on vacation, you take pictures. Like I didn't take any pictures on my commute in San Francisco today on the Muni going to work, right, like, you take pictures on vacation and you want to, like, you know, flex on that, and then, moreover, like, those things are fun to look at, so other people like them, and they're like, oh, that's really cool, I'm going to watch this thing. And the same is happening on LinkedIn on the professional side, where, like you know, when something changes a job, linkedin actually already promotes that, but then also people like that and comment on it, and so on and so forth, and so what ends up happening, though, is that you get this representation, like, you get sampling bias, you get a fictitious representation of what's actually happening in the professional market, where it's like, oh yeah, everyone's always getting promoted, everybody's always hitting quota, everybody's always doing X, y, z, and that's actually not the case. Everyone is not doing that. What is happening is the things that are being selected for you are that, and so I think that the important thing is that we, as leaders, need to, and so like.
Speaker 2:Some of the most ridiculous examples of this are these videos that people post of, like my day in the life as a, you know, as a Google product manager, or whatever. And it's like some person like walking around, like you know, cosplaying work, or whatever, and like now I'm going to go get a you know a flat white from the barista, now I'm going to go on the deck, and so on and so forth. And so the problem is is like that stuff gets in front of your staff and they're like oh yeah, that is normal, yeah, and of course, all the managers are like texting it back and forth to each other this is insane. Texting it back and forth to each other Like this is insane. This person should be fired, right? And and the problem is is, and so this is something that you have to do as a leader is you have to think about the fact that, like the like, professional social media is actually like counter-programming your, your staff, into thinking that these things, like these things are normal, right? That, like you know, working from a pool into loom is is like real. It's not real right. You just see it a lot right, that um, and so this is something that I tell my staff and my leaders all the time. I'm like, look guys, you have to be mindful of this.
Speaker 2:There's a really good book um on this as relates to how this is impacting kids, and this is actually kind of where I like started picking up on this um by a gentleman named jonathan hate, called the anxious generation. That's been. It meditates on how iphones and social media and what have you have negatively impacted the kids who came up during that era. You know, kids who are, like you know, 10 or older, from like 2010, 2012 and beyond, which is essentially the folks who are now becoming sdrs, junior aes, etc. Etc. Um and so like. But the same mechanics are impacting, are showing up in professional social media, which is which is linkedin.
Speaker 2:So what you have is you're saying how long is it going to take for this to you know, for people to react to this? It's like, well, if it's like, hey, man, like out on the streets people are like unemployed and not getting jobs for like nine months after they film themselves getting laid off, but if your staff is just constantly seeing a parade of promotions and people hitting quota and you know people working from, uh, a pool in tulum or whatever. They're insulated from that ground. Truth, reality, right. So to your. To your question like how long is it going to take for people to adjust here? Well, if you, as a manager or a leader, don't actually push like real information to them, it's going to take longer because guess what? Like reality is going to continue like the like cause, the social media is going to continue to lie to them, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if somebody is working out of their bedroom a thousand miles away from you, it's going to be even harder because, as a manager, what's your surface area with that person? You see them once a week, maybe once a day, maybe a couple other meetings, and then you're gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for, for sure. And, like I, I think one of the things that I've come to realize is that, you know, I think that work from home is extremely corrosive to junior sales staff for a lot of reasons and, like all these things kind of compound on each other insofar as, like, yeah, you don't have that norming behavior that's happening, you don't have team kind of cohesion and esprit de, esprit de corps. Um, it's way easier to to be like, yeah, you know what. Like what's going on on instagram. Like what's going on on work instagram. Like work instagram. On linkedin. Like, oh man, some, you know, I, I was cold calling and some prospect was mean to me, which guess what. Like that's always going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's always going to happen, and if you, can't like lean over and talk to like your buddy and be like oh. And then they're like oh, yeah, I called Corey Bray. That guy does suck Right, He'll, he'll blow you up, let's call him again. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. Because like that's what you want, right? It's like oh okay, what water off a duck's back, but that doesn't happen, naturally no right, like it has to happen like 20 times.
Speaker 2:And then everyone like kind of laughs about it and like, all right, cool, like, let's get back on it. Yeah, um, so like this free decor and like, and then you know the micro learnings and and what have you, and the managerial stuff is just completely virtualized in a work from home environment. And you know, I think large organizations there are large. This is oftentimes people talk about this. There's like, oh, what about these large organizations like the IBMs of the world, or like the sales forces of the world or what have you that like that make this work? And it's like, do you know what their support structures look like? Holy mackerel, they're insane, it's huge.
Speaker 2:Like one, they've got huge support structures. Two, they have huge momentum in the market as well. Like, hi, I'm calling from Salesforce. I'm here for your renewal. It's 20% higher than last year. Oh, okay, cool, yeah, docusign is in your inbox, right, like it's very different than if you're working at a 10 person, 50 person, a hundred person sales organization. Right, and like the enablement resources associated is dramatically different, right, and and so to pretend that, like your, you know, 10 person or 50 person sales organization has the same you know, support structure to support, that is like probably not true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you don't have a full-time person dedicated to making remote work successfully, then I'd really question. And maybe just one person or a little company it doesn't need to be for the sales team but if there's not somebody that's actually thinking about that and putting programming in place to make it work, then you're just out of sight, out of mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the problem there is like, look like the other funny thing about this too. And again, the thing I'll specify is that I think that remote work is particularly corrosive to young staff because, one, they're learning. Two, and not only are they learning their skills, they're also like learning what's known as executive function, like the ability to like manage yourself and like stay on task and things like that. Um, and like to pretend that that's like not a thing with like 22 year olds or 24 year olds, because like it might not not be nice. I'll give it one of the. I have a seven-year-old right and, as an example, car rental companies. They don't rent cars to people who are younger than 25.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's not because they're mean, it's because they know what the actuarial tables look like and they recognize that people who are under 25 years of age engage in decisions like they are less prone to thinking multiple steps ahead about what the implications of this particular, what the long-term implications or the second-order implications of this particular behavior might be, because they're learning that behavior Right. They're learning that behavior right, they're learning that thing. And so, if you're, you have people who are entering the workforce whilst they are still developing executive function and they're learning how to work and they're learning how to manage, like essentially, stay on task, and they're learning a new skill like selling, which is not easy and is high effort and it requires, like continuous effort. Doing that in an isolated environment versus like just being side-by-side, you know, in a collective, et cetera, et cetera, is just wildly difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, for example, when should I ask a question and what questions should I ask, and to whom should I ask the question that is easily solvable in an office?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, just like, look around and you're like, yeah, and you can look over and say hey, pete, here's the question.
Speaker 1:Like, who do you think I should go ask this to Right? But the minute you do that remotely, you call somebody on your team and you interrupt them and they slap you down or you send them a Slack message and then they say dumb question. Then now, all of a sudden, you're less likely to do it next time and then all of a sudden you've just isolated yourself from development.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, and I think the thing there, there's all sorts of examples you can look at here where remote learning during COVID was just like an utter disaster, for, and you see this by looking at like there were kind of like accidental AB tests that happened as a result of you know, certain school systems that, like when, like you, went non remote more rapidly than than those that went remote, and and like there's, you know, there's a linear relationship between the amount of learning loss that happened as a result of you know, school districts that were remote longer, right or like virtual longer, versus those are virtual shorter. And then you know, of course, the rejoinder to that is like, well, that was in a, you know, distressed, distressed environment. And like you know, the, the, the, the thing that people always say is like there can be ways to make this work. Sure, right, there can be ways to make this work. And then the response that is like, yes, but are they deployed and are they low effort and are they low friction and is it being done to, like you know, the, the standard operating procedure way that, like, where people have worked for, you know, done knowledge work for dozens and dozens, like for like many, many, many decades, or as, like my uh, my friend likes to say, uh, parker thompson, um, uh, you know, an office is a very helpful piece of b2b technology. It's like a thing right like it existed or like it was designed, like it was designed for a reason. It's like a successful uh design pattern, and so I I think that that's like you, like you could make arguments about um, is this the case for more senior staff, etc. Etc.
Speaker 2:And like I have empathy for this because, like, like I was saying, like I have a seven-year-old, I love to spend time with my kid. I commute with him in the morning when I drop him off at school, 6 am and 7 am calls with the east coast and amia in order to backfill what would otherwise like my time that would be lost, because otherwise, like my, like the amount of customer facing meeting volume I'd be able to do if I lost those slot, those slots, and like the hour and a half when I I'm dropping my son off at school, there's no way I would be able. It would be very difficult for me to get above. Like you know, 15 facing 15 customer facing meetings a week. You know 10 to 15 customer facing meetings a week if I wasn't extending that out, right.
Speaker 2:And so I think what's happening is is that like one more senior folks who are who do have good executive function and they're like they've already they've kind of hit the edge of the S curve on their, their development or whatever? Like, yeah, man, like I know how to sell, right, it's like cool, you do know how to sell. But the problem is, is the juniors need you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, the juniors need you, and so I think what we're seeing is a redirection of senior capacity is being directed towards their kids, which is not a bad thing, right? It's hard to argue against that. Away from the juniors, right? And so what you have is you have a bunch of folks who are entering the work environment right now who are not getting the same level of senior attention and TLC as the same folks who are entering the sales workforce like 10 years ago. And the problem I think, as a as a senior, you have to it's hard to admit that because, like, we're going to say like, oh, I don't want to spend time with my kid. It's like, no, I agree, but but like, let's, let's be honest about the fact that this is a redirection of senior attention away from um, you know, junior developing staff to to your kids, and that's going to have implications for the junior staff, right? Yep, yeah, and not everybody's going to have implications for the junior staff, right.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, and not everybody's going to be like me and have kids when they're 45. Well, it's biologically impossible for me to have a kid before 41. So we'll, we'll see what that number is, oh my God, your kids, good Lord, holy macaroni. Oh my God, your kids, good Lord, holy macaroni. Um no, no, we're going to go healthy, we're going to. I'm all into this, yeah, we're going to be healthy and I'm going to do it with them and that's going to be the catalyst.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so. So I think that. So I think that, like the work from home stuff is like very corrosive to to junior staff and I think that the problem is like, cause it's very serious Gordian knot situation right now, like where a lot of people don't want to admit that this problem because, like you've got seen, you've got like very senior folks who are like I'm moving to Wyoming, I'm moving to Miami, they don't have capital gains tax there, right? So you have those folks you've got Frank Slootman off in like Montana or Wyoming or whatever, like Montana or Wyoming or whatever.
Speaker 2:And then you've got, like you know, people in their early thirties or whatever who bought a house like in use the Bay area as an example.
Speaker 2:Like they decided to go buy a house in like Sacramento or whatever, at Zerp rates, like a low, and and God bless them, right, cause, like you know, housing near economic centers is is costly. So they got a five bedroom space place instead of a four-bedroom place or like fill in the blank, right, and so, like they obviously have a very substantial economic incentive to be like, yeah, this remote work thing like totally works fine. Um, and then you have the junior folks and the irony of this is that, like most junior folks, at least those who are single, like they gravitate towards cities anyway, because cities are a meeting marketplaces, they're dating marketplaces. So like they want to be here so they can be with, like other people their same age to do like mate selection, right, they're like dating and what have and like, and so like they're already here I mean, I'm in San Francisco right now they're already here, and they're living in the office just validating for everybody out there, he's in the office right now I am, but there's my staff, people like my co-owners.
Speaker 2:Being really loud, he practiced yeah, so the and so like. The funny thing is is like you've got these like junior staff, like 22, 24, 26, 28 year olds who are here in san franc, in Austin, in New York, in Chicago, et cetera, et cetera, because they want to like hang out with other people their age and, like you know, find people to date and and what have you? And like they're living in like tiny little apartment, postage stamp apartments anyway, yeah, it's not like they have like a nice workstation, like a dedicated, like home office, like you know so-and-so living in in sacramento or whatever. Like they've got this like postage stamp apartment and and like with like two other dudes who are smoking pot because they work somewhere else and they're not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, maybe, so like that's. The other thing too is just yeah, like yeah like oh yeah, non-zero, yeah non-zero. Yeah, like you know, here's my, here's like my roommate's a product manager at airbnb or at google, and like, yeah, you know. So like he works five hours a day or, sorry, five hours a week anyway. And like, and you want me to, like you know, grind and cold call on, or I'm like right, like this one guy I know that put.
Speaker 1:He got a bit. He got like 10 bitcoin for his bar mitzvah and now he just, you know, does stuff right.
Speaker 2:So if that's your roommate.
Speaker 2:yeah, if that's your, if that's your roommate, so so those folks are like. The funny thing is, like those folks are they're already in the city anyway, so they should be in an office. And so I think you're seeing this already where, like real sales organizations who are serious about sales performance like Rippling is right across the street from us, right here at Atrium, and like Navon is like right around the corner, and like Ramp I'm a bunch of friends at the Ramp sales Like sales organizations that take sales seriously they're all in the office already because they recognize this as relates to their 24 year olds, 26 year olds, 28 year olds, et cetera, et cetera. They recognize the impacts of all of this and I think the people like, yeah, there's just people who don't necessarily want to admit that that's the case and I think it's coming around, but like it certainly doesn't help that you know talking about these sort of things again, and these things impact each other.
Speaker 2:You talk about this sort of thing on social media and then you know the flying monkeys out to to like hector, you about it, right, and so then, as, like you see this, like I talk about these things on on like linkedin and twitter and what have you. And like my inbox blows up with like cro's and ceos are like oh my god, pete. Like like this is totally like this is because otherwise like the funny thing is is like otherwise, if I didn't have that happening, I like maybe I would have felt like gaslit, that like a bunch of people are like hectoring me, like oh, there's no way that that's the case. And then, like my inbox is like blowing up with like CROs and like iMessage is blowing up with like CROs and CEOs who are just like dude, oh my gosh. Like that is totally our sales organization, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all your comments are junior salespeople and unemployed people. And then your direct message is Yelling at me.
Speaker 2:The leaders yeah, yeah, it's like. And then the funny thing is everybody else to go to the point about erroneously reinforced messages. All the other people see this and they're like wow, I guess everyone feels this way, that when Pete talks about if you have less than five customer facing meetings a week on a multiple week basis, you should be scared out of your mind that your job shouldn't like your job is not going to be there. And then a bunch of people say, oh well, like that's such, like you know, oh, that's that's such old school thinking, activity doesn't matter, et cetera, et cetera. Then other people see that like, a bunch of other people see them and they're like well, I guess that's right, they don't see my inbox with like a bunch of like CROs from, like you know, app dynamics and like Zscaler or whatever, like oh my God man this is totally the case.
Speaker 1:That's old school thinking. It's not 2018 anymore. If somebody says that, I guarantee you one thing that person hasn't read a book in the last five years. Because they they think that new is whatever's on Tik TOK this week. And speaking of customer facing meetings, we got one minute left. I know we got to run plug, plug your company and plug working for you and I tell you if anybody's looking for a I don't know if you're hiring right now, but if you're looking for a sales role in San Francisco, go work at Atrium.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah. So the reason why I think about this stuff a lot is because, like our software, like Atrium, makes sales performance management software. We have hundreds of customers. I see their performance data I hear. I talk with their CROs, I talk with their sales operations leaders. I talk with their CROs, I talk with their sales operations leaders and it's like what I've been grappling with this is to see the disconnect between behaviors and outputs, and that's what people use our software to do is to kind of drive higher performance and manage performance better Manager facing, rep facing, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, love people's feedback on this. This is something that I think about a lot. I think we're going to be able to solve this problem, but it's going to take people actually being willing to speak up and say like hey man, like the current state of the world is like not, is like not where it needs to be, and and like we can fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think that if anybody's listening to this and you say, wait a second, I'm looking in the mirror. Maybe I am that person. Start with that, yeah, totally Easiest person influences yourself. Yeah, all right, pete, great catching up, great to see you. Thank you everybody for listening. This is Sales Management Podcast. We'll see you next time you.