Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria how it can play havoc with our lives, and what we can do about it.

Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, translated into Greek means unbearable, and for those of you who have experienced the intense emotions that feel, as Sara explains like an emotional tsunami you know it can be incredibly discombobulating and disruptive to your daily life. it can make the best relationships wobble and it can make the person experiencing the perceived rejection, criticism or judgment feel like they want to die.

We share our experiences and explore what we can do to scaffold ourselves and create new resources for our toolbox.

We explore Dr Lisa Feldman Barrett's research about how emotions are really made which has changed the classic theory and speaks to the fact we have more control over our emotions than we had believed.

We hope you enjoy the episode as much as we did making it.

 You can find Katie Stibbs at info@katiestibbs.com
or www.welovepeopleschool.com
contact me if you want to find out more about the access to work grant from the UK government. Or want to start to Simplify your life, and learn new skills and strategies to be even more successful by being fully yourself?
Change work* Coaching* Relationships* Strategy*

you can find Sara Robinson at https://www.sararobinsoncomms.co.uk/
Communication Consultant* Writer* Journalist* Labour Councillor For Cardiff
sara@sararobinsoncomms.co.uk

Transcript

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the podcast ambitious ADHD where we aim to change the conversation around neurodiversity to talk about our challenges, our strengths, but to really learn to finally be ourselves because everyone else has taken. Hello and welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining Sara and I today and this conversation is going to be about exploring RSD. Now, for those of you that are just at the beginning of this journey, you might not know about RSD, but it stands for rejection sensitive Dysphoria, which means unbearable in Greek and I can absolutely agree with that word, it can be unbearable. And when I first read about RSD in Attitude magazine, I literally dropped the mic because it was like, oh my God. This weird emotional dysregulation that has happened all of my life in very weird and strange circumstances is a real thing. And it is because of ADHD.

Speaker B: It has a name, it has a name, it's got a name. Sarah revelation, isn't it, when you find that out?

Speaker A: Oh, it literally is. Did you read it in the same place, Sarah?

Speaker B: I think I did. You know, and again, it was one of those real penny drop moments like so much about because big emotions are a thing, aren't they? And they're not all good, they're not all bad emotions in terms of emotional dysregulation. But the intensity of emotional response that I get when I am either rejected or sense rejection just felt so disproportionate to the actual event for my whole life and I struggled with it in relationships, in my career and then to find out actually it's a recognized symptom of ADHD. So it's not actually technically in the diagnostic manual, but that's only because it's very difficult to measure. Ned Hallowell, who writes a huge amount, dr. Ned Hallowell on ADHD and is one of the world's leading experts, says that he has rarely seen a patient with ADHD who doesn't have a form of RSD and obviously it shows up differently for everybody. But yeah, it was such a big revelation to me, Katie, that even now, today, I'm just still amazed. There's a word for this thing that I know for both of us we've struggled with our whole lives, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it has really informed my attention because I have been obsessed with human psychology, emotions, the way that we're wired forever and I think this is why, because I was always trying to make sense of the world through my experience and my lens and being so kind of attuned and empathic and very sensitive. It was just a fascinating it still is a fascinating topic. So I'm always, always looking for ways that I can regulate myself, that I can help regulate my clients, that we can get deeper and deeper understanding of when and where and kind of create this foundation of all of the things that can enable us to take the pause. Because this is a silly example of when I first experienced it. It was actually when I got a holiday job at my auntie's place of work and they gave me the task of filing and I'd never filed in my life. I think I was like 15 or something and I just couldn't file. Sounds so ridiculous. I got these thousands and thousands of sheets that I was supposed to file and my brain just couldn't process it. And I think that is another part of this as well, that I can't do very weird, simple things sometimes. And the self judgment and the shame and the perceived rejection of, oh, my God, the judgment and everything that actually came from myself and it's just so embarrassing. It was devastating to me. I was totally floored by it. And internally I was just thinking, oh.

Speaker B: My God, what is wrong with me? Yeah, I know. Yeah, that question, what is wrong with me? I felt, well, we know now, we.

Speaker A: Know now, we know now. And you know what people say? Oh, we don't like to label. I don't like labels. For me, bring on the label. Bring on the label. It doesn't define who I am, but it does kind of say a lot about the suffering and the torment that I've endured over a lifetime, that's for sure.

Speaker B: It just explains a lot, I think. And I think as human beings, we do need to understand each other and how we relate to the world. And it's why storytelling is so vital for human beings, because we need to understand ourselves and then understand how we fit into the world around us. And if, like both of us, you weren't given that explanation until fairly late in life, really, then I think everything from now on will be a quest to kind of understand that and to be able to share it as well with other women and other people who are struggling with the same things. Because I want people to know that they're not alone and they don't have to ask that what is wrong with me question anymore. There is actually an explanation and that's what today's episode is all about, right? So I'm really absolutely so down for this chat today. I'm so glad we're talking about this.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's so important, firstly, like you said, to be able to put words to it, to understand ourselves in the context of where we are and who we are in the world, and also because that brings healing in and of itself, understanding and knowing we're not alone, that we're all in this together. And then I really want to talk about our listeners experience of RSD. I'm going to share a little bit more about mine. And then I also want to discuss and share with the listeners ways that we can regulate our emotions. It isn't a lost cause, I know sometimes it really feels like it is, but there are things that we can do and just understanding it, for one is absolutely key, isn't it?

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah, I think you're right. And also just knowing that you're not alone, that it's way more common than you think can be really helpful. And I think, like anything, once you have language for something, once you have a way of explaining it logically, then you can move into the phase of working out the ways that work for you. So I'm really glad that we're having this conversation. I'm really excited to learn from you about ways of managing it because I think, like everything with ADHD, it's an ongoing I'm not going to call it battle, but a campaign.

Speaker A: Campaign. I love that it's a campaign. Yes, we are with ourselves, we are not fighting against ourselves. That's the one. The whole self love, the self acceptance, the self healing, it sounds like. Oh, yeah. But it's absolutely core component of creating this foundation where we can react from a different place. And I just want to give you an example. It's quite a severe example of what I now think of as RSD in my own personal life, but at the time, it totally flawed me again. And I was nearly 30. I was in a really great relationship with a really lovely, stable man. And I'll talk about the importance of this later on in terms of who we are in relationship with. Not just friendships, but our intimate relationships and work relationships and everything. But I was with this lovely man and we had a flat and everything was stable and I happened to get a really good job and I was traveling a lot and I got a bit too kind of big for my boots, looking back. Well, not really. I was really experiencing being really not ashamed of myself and really, oh my God, what's possible for me? And he asked me to marry him in Paris. And it was one of the worst moments of my life because I knew in that moment I couldn't say yes. And my life as I knew it was ended. And that sounds dramatic, but it was dramatic and I couldn't say yes. So therefore that meant that I had to not live in my flat anymore. I had nowhere to live. I was kind of on people's sofas. I was in such a state that I nearly lost my job. And in fact, yeah, I mean, it really derailed me because it sounds I wasn't rejected, but I kind of was rejecting myself. And it's the same thing, it doesn't matter how you look at it, but it's this emotional response that is like off the scale.

Speaker B: Do you mind me asking how much of that was you preempting? Possible rejection from him? I know it gets bandied around relationships, but fundamentally rooted in the idea that you don't believe that you are worthy of love and worthy of kindness, which in itself is a form of RSD, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: I rejected kind of myself. It turned into that and it was that component of, oh, my God, I'm never going to be able to make this work, so I've got to walk away now. And it was really blindsided me and it was like a real sucker punch people talk about. Yeah, at the time it was horrendous. Now, I know, like you said, I've got language for it, I understand what was happening. Yeah, it did and it does. And I've heard this from many people that I work with. You feel like you have kind of suicidal ideation.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I describe it as an emotional tsunami. When it hits, there's no warning. It happens so quickly and you can feel I've often felt as if I'm drowning in the sheer power and intensity of the emotions. And because there's no warning, you can't gear yourself up for it, you can't put strategies in place. This was a time before I had the language for it. Of course, the fact that you can put things in place to help you manage RSD. But for years I really almost felt like I was being carried away on the river or a river. Really strong emotions and they would happen to me and that I had no control over it. And I guess you must have felt the same.

Speaker A: That was such a brilliant way of describing it, a tsunami. For me, I always described it as literally like the black hole opening up underneath my feet and just literally falling, falling, falling, and literally trying to kind of like grab that. You just have no control, like you said, just like falling into the deepest, blackest, most painful hole ever. It's just so weird and there's no.

Speaker B: Way out and nobody can help you when you're and then we get into withdrawal, don't we? And kind of withdrawing from relationships, withdrawing from the things that would make you feel safe again, because you can't, because you're too far gone. And I think in that, it ends up echoing depression and anxiety. And so often we get misdiagnosed as having kind of long term conditions when for me, RSD was very situational. So I could be absolutely fine one day, and then the next, I would be in this pit and it would be because something had triggered it. And then it might take days for me to feel emotionally regulated again, but I would. So I always knew that depression wasn't a real thing for me because it would come and go so quickly. There was kind of no long term pattern to it, which I think is another interesting thing, because I know a lot of people with ADHD who wait a long time to be diagnosed are told they're depressed. But if you're experiencing a form of RSD on a regular basis, I'm sure it absolutely does feel like depression.

Speaker A: Absolutely. That's what they diagnose me with. And so met, in fact, nearly everyone I work with has been diagnosed with depression rather than ADHD. And suddenly, when they are correctly diagnosed, it's like wearing glasses after you've been blind, basically putting on glasses and being able to see again.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And realizing there is something different about your brain chemistry, but it's not what they thought. And how you treat it is also not necessarily how they thought, but untangling all of that is really complicated. And we're not the experts. I know for both you and me, we've done a huge amount of research and hyper focused on understanding this stuff. But you kind of trust the medical profession to know this stuff. But it's really difficult, I guess, even as a doctor, to be on the receiving end of somebody trying to explain their emotions, because it's like trying to get somebody to taste color or to kind of taste music absolutely. In your emotions to anyone else, isn't it?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And we're all so different in that respect as well. What I was going to say to you so one of the listeners explained, didn't she, her experience of RSD?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I wanted to share this. So Bethan, one of our lovely listeners, got in touch and shared something about RSD that I thought was really worth sharing. So Bethan is one of the most badass women I know. And she was saying to me that she has always thought that RSD doesn't apply to her. In fact, she thought she was kind of almost an outlier in her experience of ADHD because she didn't experience it. Her take on it was, no, I don't get it, this doesn't apply to me. If people don't like me, can't win them all. She's very gung ho. But then she said after her diagnosis, having read a bit more about it, she now knows that she's in the camp of sensing rejection that isn't there or before it happens, even if it doesn't happen. And she says what makes that even more complicated is and what really doesn't help is a lot of the time her intuition is really bang on. And I know so many of us ADHD can identify with that. Our intuition is finely tuned, we can read a room, we're hyperempathetic. Right? And so you trust your intuition never to let you down. But sometimes it's not your intuition, because as you will go on to explain about the chemistry of what's happening in your brain when you experience RSD, it's actually not your intuition at all, but all you're doing is listening to this internal cue that tells you I'm about to be rejected or I'm about to fail. And so a lot of the time she was explaining when she is imagining rejection, she's convinced that it's very real and it's impossible to separate that perception or that imagined rejection from what's actually happening in real life because of another of our ADHD traits, which is that strong intuition. Right. Which makes it impossible for us to.

Speaker A: Know, this is a real dilemma because, my God, it is one of the superpowers and we really want to be able to trust it. So how do we discern when it is our intuition or whether our brain is doing a number on us? And that leads me very nicely into somebody that I want to introduce you to, if you don't know her already, and explore her research and theories. Because I just think it's a really interesting potentially way to explore how our brain works and how we have more control over our emotions than we think. Now, this is obviously for this brain, our brains work the same, but it's our reactions to things that are difficult for ADHD. But let me just explain this research, which is from Dr. Lisa Feldman, and she's a neuroscientist and a psychologist, and she's also written quite a few books. I don't know whether you've read any of them. Her bestseller is how emotions are made.

Speaker B: Oh, I haven't, but I'm very curious.

Speaker A: Yeah, and she is saying she's absolutely, very clear about her. Clear about it. I listened to her again last night on the Huberman podcast, which is a brilliant resource for any of you people that are into neuroscience. But she is like emphatic and she's like, just look at the research. So she is saying that basically your emotions are your brain's best guesses of what your bodily sensations mean. So your brain is guided by your past experience. And so it constructs these guesses like a split second so rapidly that emotions feel like uncontrollable reactions that happen to you, but they are not. Emotions are actually made by us.

Speaker B: So they're predictors rather than predictive reactions.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker B: Well, that's a game changer, isn't it?

Speaker A: Exactly. It is a real game changer. Now, I'm not saying it's easy to make changes here, but it is possible when we even just know that bit of information, because previously classical kind of neuroscience had thought and it was easy to understand and easy to explain, and I kind of guess they like it like that. So there is pushback from this, but the evidence is like huge that before we used to think, right, we look at a snake, we have a fear reaction, our face makes a certain grimace or expression, and then our response is fear based on what we've seen. Now, this totally turns this on its head because we are making our own emotions and our brain is predicting for us of past experiences. And of course, it gets it wrong. It is not always correct. And an example of this is a really confident boy going into an exam. And for example, my son going into exam had done all his revision, forgot to eat his breakfast, really hungry. Yet that stomach rumble and churn. Brain predicts in a split second oh, creates the emotion of anxiety, fear. He's experiencing anxiety and fear. So it's actually incorrect. He's just hungry this is really important just to hold in our minds as to know that actually we can change things. And she talks about it in terms of body budget and it is the basic fundamentals, of course, but it really when you see, it makes you realize how important these basics are. So sleep, nutrition, movement, hydration, hydration. Because mostly your sensory reactions are coming from these things. The deficit in the body budget.

Speaker B: Oh my God. You imagine that would make so much sense because as ADHD is, we're really bad at reading our own bodily cues, right? So I know that I don't know, I'm hungry until I feel my mood dip. I'm not even sure I ever feel hunger. Really what I feel is a tiredness and a mood dip. And then I think, oh, I really should eat now. And the same in terms of needing the bathroom, I don't know until the second I need to go. I don't have the warning system, like the early warning system that other people seem to have always teasing me for it. But I just don't know until I know. And I guess if we're really bad at unreading our bodily cues, it's no surprise that emotions can often hit us like a tidal wave because we're not listening. We're too busy living in our heads.

Speaker A: Living in our heads. Which really ties into what we're coming in a minute of really making it a priority. These things that are boring and we don't necessarily want to do, we've got to create meaning and purpose for why we're doing it. Well, this is like for me, this is like such a great activator, knowing that these things, if we make sense of them and if we kind of really notice them and really be in our body more and make that a priority, then we have more control. Well, I will have more control over my emotions than I did before.

Speaker B: Yeah, and feels so basic, doesn't it, Katie? But it's one of those it sounds basic, I know, but it's so difficult, especially for ADHD.

Speaker A: This is the like this is so part of the whole issue and system if now I realize that that is how the brain is making our own.

Speaker B: Emotions and also it's body trying to protect you. So it's your brain trying to protect you by predicting it's trying to keep you safe. But ironically, what that means for us and what it triggers for us makes us feel completely unsafe. And I guess the key is to try and find some kind of harmony between our body and our brain so that they're working together more nicely. Just playing more nicely together, I guess.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And she said when you can tap into it, tap into what is going on in your body, you can kind of change your remembered past. So you basically can change how your brain constructs your experience and then guide your actions differently.

Speaker B: So it's like chicken, egg, egg and chicken. Chicken.

Speaker A: But I think, oh, my God.

Speaker B: It sounds to me like this is the root of a couple of really interesting therapies as well. So cognitive behavioral therapy, doesn't it? So it's remapping thought patterns and emotions. But also something I'm really interested in is the rise of EMDR as a form of therapy, which, again, is about reprogramming your memories, but whilst physically touching yourself and tapping yourself. I know there's loads of research out there on both of those and I'm absolutely not an expert, but it's so interesting because that's what both of those therapies try to get you to do, I guess, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I had massive success myself with EMDR and I had it around my father's death, which I've always thought to be the issue. I was ten and he died in front of me, and I've always kind of thought that all of my emotional dysregulation was from that, and obviously it partly was, but obviously now I know about all of these other things. These are also components. But what Lisa Feldman is saying as well that in a very simple way when we curate new experiences, when we learn new things, when we go to movies and we seed our brains with different words vocabulary, when we can say, oh, that is when we widen our vocabulary and it's nuance it kind of creates a different explanation for the emotion.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's the power of language again, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Power of just the more words you have and the more nuance there's room for, particularly around our feelings. I think we could all do with being a bit more fluent in emotional language, I think, because even in fear, there are grades of fear and even in anxiety, there are different forms of anxiety. So I think the more we can be clear about what it is that we're feeling, probably the better we can manage what's going on for us.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because we're sending signals to the brain and the brain is predicting it in a different way, that's the point. So it's working on so many different levels. So that I just find fascinating, that we can actually start to know that we have a bit more control. But the issue for our brains, I feel, in the RSD kind of explosiveness, is the fact that we need to cultivate a pause and be able to have ways of firstly knowing what the triggers are, who the triggers are, the kind of experiences that have happened to us before, so we can really practice. So what I found really helpful, and obviously I'm starting to use more of my hypnotherapy skills, even though I don't tend to call it hypnotherapy, because for a long time that was unfashionable and it was like all some weird men, like trying to make you do things you didn't want to do. But actually, when you think about it, and if you think about it in the context of the brain, of what I've just explained, if you can get the brain because basically all it is, is being able to get you into a deep relaxed state. So you are experiencing a situation, a conversation, a relationship throughout the filters of all of the misinterpreted data from the brain, you're in a relaxed state and you can really in that moment practice experiencing, being regulated, being calm. So you are literally re experiencing those difficult times in a situation where your whole body's responses are relaxed.

Speaker B: Wow. So that's the kind of bringing it back to safety piece. And I was really struck by one of our listeners is Jen Lewis, who's an Australian neuroscience and ADHD expert and she has this beautiful thing that she calls RSD, which is our radical safety detector. And she says because the reason she calls it that is it's the primal part of our brain. So our nervous system detecting danger, whether it's real or perceived, it's just trying to protect us. And when we are in a safe environment, when we feel completely safe, we don't feel it. So we need to understand that it's coming up to protect us and it doesn't matter if it's accurate or not. And in fact, it's not a deficiency, it's an overefficient part of us because that emotion wants to be healed and it wants to be brought to safety. And through all of our lives we'll all have had kind of little tea traumas that never got brought to safety. They've just sat there in our body. And then when that predictive bit of our brain guesses that what's going on here is that we should feel scared, we're reliving all of those things that never did get brought to safety. So I guess it's about what you're saying is it's about the things we keep coming back to? I suppose that would be like breath work and not quite meditation, but the ability to stop and be still while this is happening and recognize, I guess most importantly that this is what's happening. So recognizing it when it happens, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Recognizing the signs in the body so you can and I've practiced this myself so many times for many years and I know this works and obviously I share this with people, so what I found works and everyone's different. So you need a toolbox of things that work for you. But knowing when those signals come in for the body, for me, I literally feel hot shame. I have tears in my eyes. It's literally like split second and it's just like an instant. So I know I've got to take myself out of the room and this is really difficult, especially when you really dysregulated and you want to fight. So taking myself out of my room and going through a little process where I'm saying to myself in this interact, like what is my higher purpose? Really? What I want is to feel loved and connected. And that is my higher purpose. Not the fight or the emotions. That is my higher purpose. And I create whatever, like an image, like a feeling in the anchor point in the body. There's many different things that you can do, but it just gives you a moment to reconnect with yourself. And what the end goal in is this? Because if you carry on as most of you, if any of you realize what goes on, if you get explosive and you start fighting you will be the one that is in terrible pain. So if you can salvage it at this point and get yourself into a better place then it's you that will not be awake all night literally in agony. Regretting what you said, absolutely regretting what you said.

Speaker B: Can I ask you a question then? Because I'm so curious. This has been a lifelong thing that I've really struggled that when those I have all the same feelings as you. The bodily heat, the shame, the anger, whatever it is. I've always found it really hard to just take time out. That fight or flight thing when you want to fight, when really you should fly and sit in another room for a little bit. How do you manage it when it feels so all consuming? How easy is it?

Speaker A: It's hard. It's not easy, it's not easy. It's so difficult. But for me personally, I know the other side of where I'm going. And I've learned over time, and this has taken a long time, so learn over time. It's so painful to me that I've got to get out the room. I've got to get there off the room. And in my experience, many of us with ADHD are oftentimes in relationships where we are deemed cry kids. The term has gone out of my head.

Speaker B: Do you mean like the emotional one or the yeah.

Speaker A: When you are in a relationship with you tend to go for avoidant attachment when you your attachment style, your attachment styles so this is another level of it but I see it all the time everywhere, so this must be a thing. And we'll go into this in a later episode but the fact that we often want to speak and clear it out, we can't be quiet.

Speaker B: Yeah, same immediately I need to sort.

Speaker A: Out voluntary impulse to be heard, to be seen, to be understood and oftentimes we're with somebody that has the absolute opposite attachment style that if you do do that they will recluse, recluse, recluse and you will never get what you need. So the first part is difficult but it can be done but the second part is being able to negotiate previously to what is happening in everyday life you're understanding to your partner or whoever this is happening with the aspects of this and what is underneath it explaining.

Speaker B: To them, I guess conversation where you're not obviously not. In the moment, because it's impossible then. But when you're having the conversation about how your ADHD shows up for you, explaining a, what RSD is, b, how it shows up for you, and C, when it does what you really need, it's almost like writing care instructions for yourself, isn't it? When this is happening, this is what I really need, and I need you to I guess the problem with that I've had with that in the past, is when people say to me, things like, calm down, then that's guaranteed to make me even worse. But I guess previously, I haven't had the gift of self knowledge. I haven't known that RSD is a thing I haven't known about my ADHD. And so it becomes something else entirely. But I think now, with this new self knowledge and what I've learned from you today, which I'm really grateful for, it's having that ability to say, this is what's happening, this is what triggers this, this is how I feel I want to behave, but this is often how it makes me behave. And this is what I need from you. And these are the conditions that we need to create together to get through those kind of bumpy bits together. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And believe me, if you're with somebody that is totally non, emotionally, verbal and can't speak, which happens to me, it's happened to so many people, my clients, that this seems to be a pattern with, then this is not easy, this is not going to happen overnight. But I'm telling you, it can be done. And an example of this is being able to say, okay, I am really feeling so angry when this happens, I explode. And I know you hate me for it, but what is really going on behind my anger is fear, hurt, the fact that instantly the belief comes up you're going to leave me. And because I love you, if you can get that, and I think it does hit home after a while, people do understand that, wow, that's so powerful, isn't it?

Speaker B: And like so much in life and around this condition, it comes down to good communication again, doesn't it? It comes down to being able to communicate your needs and just be really brutally, radically honest, I guess, about yeah, we all behave in ways that we're not proud of. Of course, we're human beings, but the more we can be honest about those and the more we can say, actually, I don't want to behave in that way, but this is what you can do to help make me feel safe. Because I think so much with RSD is about that we feel unsafe when it happens, right? So what we need are the conditions whereby we feel safe again. And obviously, in a partnership, it takes two of you to create those conditions. And so you need to have that conversation, right?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And even though you think it might not be going in. And it's like so frustrating, it will eventually go in if you are with somebody that even if finds it slightly uncomfortable, which just makes me laugh. Slightly uncomfortable. I've heard that so many times from people. It makes me feel slightly well, slightly I'd love to feel just slightly uncomfortable.

Speaker B: Exactly. Oh my God, what I wouldn't give.

Speaker A: To feel slightly uncomfortable. But it can be done. And also writing down these things and like in letter form or whatever way you want to do it, and whether you give it the person or not, it really enables you to process these such strong, epic feelings.

Speaker B: Oh, you're so right about that. I find it so much easier when I'm in the midst of the tsunami, I find it so much easier to write something down than I do to say it because I'm not making sense. My mouth is moving faster than my brain can possibly keep up with. But I find if the discipline of just opening a journal or notes on my phone and writing down, this is why you feel this way, this is what's going on for you, and once you've done it for yourself, do it for yourself. And then you're in a position where you can share it with a partner, I guess. And you can start to see patterns over time. But again, it just comes back to that awareness and having the wherewithal to actually get your phone out and write those things and understand why you're doing it as well. It's something I've been working with my son on, actually, because he has suspected ADHD and I've been getting him to write down when he has kind of big, strong emotional outbursts and kind of what's going on for him that lead up to those reactions and what the underlying feeling is. And he said that he found it really powerful too. So I think in relationships and in parenting, these are all kind of little tools and techniques that we can all use to just improve our experience of how we move about the world with ADHD.

Speaker A: Yeah. And just afterwards having that real process of filling back up with healthy power and self love. Because whether that's on like a hypnotic journey or just lying back relaxing, download something from Spotify, whatever it is, it's absolutely fundamental that we really power.

Speaker B: Might for somebody who doesn't understand hypnotherapy, what else might somebody at home really?

Speaker A: What I do sit on his simplest form and what I teach is have some words of, like, feet on the ground, grounded feeling that kind of being present, being present in your body. And just having I'm safe, I am loved, I am supported, and having little memories to hand where you felt really great, wholesome good about yourself. It could be as simple as that. Bringing a memory of a holiday in.

Speaker B: Wow, almost having like, that bank of positive memories. Katie I feel like I've had a therapy session myself today. I've learned so much because I think it's one thing to acknowledge RSD exists, but it's another to learn to cope with it in the world, I think. And that's what we're all trying to do, isn't it, is just get better at how these things show up for us and how we manage these things for ourselves. And also crucially for the people around us. Because, as I'm sure you will know and recognize often, even though we're the ones suffering, it can be difficult for the people around us to be around us and live with us when we're in the midst of I'm going to call it a tsunami again. But when it happens, it's not just us that suffers. So the more we can do to manage ourselves, the better we become to live with or be around.

Speaker A: Yeah. And other people have words for it. They understand it more. It's not that you're crazy psycho, whatever we've been called in the past or whatever we've kind of had to experience for us, it's just deep it's. Others have got worse and they can go, okay. Right, I understand that a little bit more now.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And so powerful.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I just want to also add another little nugget that Dr. Sarah Feldman was kind of suggesting on the Huberman podcast. Was that also a reminding each other of that we are always regulating each other's nervous systems and so being with a person that makes you feel safe is literally like the ticket to longevity and actual real health. And it was like nuts. The statistics on this.

Speaker B: Wow, okay.

Speaker A: And this is really interesting to me because is the person like adding to your savings account or are they a tax on your body budget?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, this is a whole other episode, but those attacks on your body budget I e. When somebody is withdrawing or treating or actually rejecting you, I'm sure you know this, but that can often show up as dopamine chasing for us. Right. Because when we exactly run and we run and we run and then we get the validation when we chase eventually and that dopamine becomes addictive and you can end up feeling like that is the only type of relationship that is worth pursuing because we get so much gratification and pleasure in our brain from being in that type of relationship. And safety can actually feel alien and safety can feel weird and scary and unstimulating and all of those things. Has that been your experience?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's so key. So all of the people that I see that are regulated, more regulated, are with people that are really I mean, this is pretty obvious, but calm together are real rocks.

Speaker B: Yeah. That's so interesting.

Speaker A: And you really see it. The difference is massive. But our natural inclination, like you said, unless you've changed the habit, is to go for the dopamine hit because that is a habit, but that can also be re experienced and changed.

Speaker B: Gosh, and it's never too late to change. I guess that's the message today, isn't it?

Speaker A: That we never too late.

Speaker B: There's always a light at the end of things. Yeah, definitely. I've learned so much today. I just feel like I need to go in the line of dark and dream and process it. I'm also playing the Warren G song Regulator in my head now because regulated so much that I'm not regulate. But you know what?

Speaker A: These kind of tools are the stuff that we find boring on first sight. But I just know you know this. They are the things that are going to help you shift the needle the most.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And if they sound boring or obvious, often it's because they are boring and obvious, but they're hard to do in the moment. And that's where the work is, isn't it? That's exactly where the work is, I think, is in having them, making a note of them somewhere, having some kind of resource where you can if you're really kind of stuck in a hole and you've got a note on your telephone. That is almost like care instructions for yourself that says this is what you do in this situation and it will help you on the other side. Even just reminding yourself to breathe. I know it sounds really basic, but it comes back. Know how often we struggle to just listen to our bodily cues, I guess. But yeah, this has been really enlightening for me, Katie, and I think we should definitely do another episode and maybe get some of the because I know you've been talking about Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett today, and there's Jen Lewis in Sydney, Australia, who I'd love to hear from. So maybe we could do a follow up special on RSD and get some people in to talk about that and maybe get more listener experiences as well and questions. How would that be?

Speaker A: That'd be amazing. Because it's just great, isn't it? Hearing other people's experiences? The more I think people can share you, just more that you feel validated and part of the conversation and part of the community. We're all in the same tribe, aren't we, really?

Speaker B: Absolutely. So anyone out there who's struggling with Rst or has any tips on how you manage it or what the turning point was for you, then please do get in touch. We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker A: Yeah, amazing. That'd be great. Right, Sarah. Until next time.

Speaker B: Until next time. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker A: All right. Lots of love.

Speaker B: Hello, Katie.

Speaker A: Bye. Thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you would like more of this kind of stuff, join us at We Love Pupil School. For people that want to create lasting relationships, great communication, and build a life, that means that they can be fully themselves. Thank you for listening.