"Unravelling Burnout: A Fresh Look for ADHD Women"

Feeling the burn(out)? You're not alone. This episode tackles the all-too-common issue of burnout, especially prevalent among women with ADHD. We delve into why ADHD women are particularly susceptible to burnout and offer actionable strategies to help break the cycle.

Highlights of the Episode:

Defining Burnout: We explore what burnout means in the context of ADHD, highlighting its unique impact on women.

Signs and Symptoms: Learn to recognise the early warning signs of burnout and understand their significance in your daily life.

The ADHD Connection: Why does ADHD exacerbate burnout? We discuss the interplay between ADHD symptoms and burnout, underlining the importance of self-awareness.

Coping strategies: From practical tips on managing daily tasks to embracing mindfulness and self-compassion, we share methods to help you navigate through burnout.

Join us as we offer insights, personal stories, and expert advice to empower you in managing burnout. Let's redefine our approach to self-care and find paths to sustainable wellbeing.

Breathwork practitioner

https://www.meraki-way.com/

https://traumaprevention.com/ 

Connect with Us:

Katie Stibbs

Email: info@katiestibbs.com

Website: http://www.welovepeopleschool.com

Looking for guidance for navigating life with ADHD? Contact Katie to learn more about the Access to Work grant from the UK government, and discover strategies for simplifying your life and achieving success by embracing your authentic self.

Sara Robinson

Email: sara@sararobinsoncomms.co.uk

Website: Sara Robinson Communications: https://www.sararobinsoncomms.co.uk/

Award-winning PR Consultant, Trainer, Content Writer, and Labour Councillor in Cardiff.

Reach out to Sara for expert advice on PR and communication strategies, writing services and training.

Transcript

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the podcast Ambitious ADHD, where we aim to change the conversation around neurodiversity, to talk about our challenges, our strengths, but to really learn to finally be ourselves because everyone else has taken Sa. Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Now, this episode is about burnout, the feelings of burnout. And if you are feeling this right now, believe me, you are not alone. And it can be really freaking tough. Sarah and I both know this for sure, and this episode know the common issues of burnout and especially why it is so prevalent for us women with ADHD. And we are going to dive into why that is, why we are particularly susceptible to burnout and our own experiences and stories and actionable strategies and what to kind of watch out for and how it does appear in your life, even when it is creeping up on you. And the hope is that you can be more aware and put in those kind of be aware of those conditions so you can stop it before it takes over. So welcome, Sarah.

Speaker B: Hello, Katie. I'm so glad we're talking about this today. It feels really timely, doesn't it? After a lot of people, I'm sure, have been juggling a lot over the Christmas break, and then we're starting a new year, and we had our last episode, which was all about goals and setting goals. And today, really kind of, for me, Burnout is a lot about the expectations we set of ourselves. So I'm really glad that we're tackling this one today. It's a biggie. But we've got lots and lots of advice to share and really kind of grateful to listeners who've got in touch with their stories, too. So looking forward to sharing them.

Speaker A: Yeah, really looking forward to that. And that just popped into my head, actually, because burnout, when you think about burnout, it's like this endless treadmill, but I experience burnout, and I think other people do. Like you said to me, the Christmas period, we can be busy, but we can also not be busy. And we could be traveling around and enjoying ourselves more and then getting back into the system can also, the system of life and all of our obligations and duties can even be more of a feeling of kind of burnout, if you know what I mean.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Burnout can show up in our work, in our parenting, in our family and our social lives. The official definition of burnout, by the way. So since 2019, it's been recognized by the World Health Organization as a kind of official, formal thing, and they do call it an occupational phenomenon. So linked to your job so they define it as a state of physical and emotional exhaustion that occurs when you experience long term stress or when you've worked in a physically or emotionally draining role for a long time. The thing I think this overlooks World Health Organization, is that actually just parenting, like being a stay at home parent, is a full time job. So it's not always about being in paid employment. It's about the demands that life places on you and the demands we place on ourselves, really. So, yeah, I completely agree with you.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I just remember staying at home, looking after my children and experiencing the worst kind of feelings of burnout.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Because me, it just did not suit me. I didn't know about ADHd then. I've talked about this before on a previous episode of the podcast, but obviously because I didn't realize, and I just thought, I'm just a terrible person for not wanting to really, or enjoying looking after my children for most of the existing.

Speaker B: And it's a job. It's a full time job in itself. And I think that's where I kind of differ a bit with the who definition of it being an occupational phenomenon, because I think staying at home, raising children, running a household, all of those things could well be a full time job. Increasingly more and more of us are trying to do that alongside demand jobs, sometimes more than one job. And so I guess today is about validating people that if you are feeling burned out, there's no freaking wonder.

Speaker A: Absolutely, you're so right, because many of us are juggling all of things, and many of us are single parents, so it's just no wonder that we are feeling.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Tired. And what I mean by burnout or not necessarily just what I mean, but it can present itself in physical, kind of wired, but tired, mentally drained fogginess, or the opposite of that total overthinking and rumination.

Speaker B: Yeah, there are so many ways burnout can show up and often doesn't feel. For example, I didn't have words for this, and I've had cycles of what I now know as burnout through my whole life and especially through my working life. And sometimes that feeling of being, like you said, tired but wired, you cannot relax. You're exhausted, so you're permanently feeling either mentally or physically drained. That feeling of feeling just kind of helpless or trapped or just a bit weather beaten by the world. And then for me, certainly that's led to feelings of kind of being detached and feelings of needing to kind of further detach myself from my social circle, having that really kind of negative outlook on the world. Yeah. I think that the common signs, it's really worth, if you're not sure if you're suffering from burnout or not, it's worth googling the common signs because they're not the things that you would necessarily expect. And sometimes, often because we will have kind of depression or anxiety as a secondary thing for women with ADHD, then we'll think it's part of that. But actually we're doing too much or we're setting too high a set of expectations for ourselves, which we'll come on to a bit later. I know, but, yeah, those common signs are sometimes hard to spot.

Speaker A: Yeah. And can you think of for you, I know we're jumping the gun a bit, but what signs can you kind of think about when it comes to your personal experience?

Speaker B: Well, they're all things that I just thought made me really weird. Like, most of the things pre diagnosis, really. But my whole career, I feel like I operate at kind of 130%. That's my kind of default mode. But I have had cycles throughout my career where I've worked really hard. Go, go. All that speed, all that getting things done yesterday, and then I will need to take time off or I'll get very sick, or I have, in the past anyway, got very sick. And the physical illness usually is just a manifestation of the fact that my body is so run down and I'm so stressed and I've been living on adrenaline for so long that my body just goes, hang on, no, I'm not having this anymore. And I'm kind of forced to stop. Then I'm forced to kind of go to bed and lie in that darkened room. But I remember back in 2018, I had a really bad episode where I had to take time out for my business. I couldn't do a thing. I couldn't even look at emails on my phone. The only thing I could do was walk and listen to audiobooks and be in nature. And it took me a long time to recover from that episode.

Speaker A: How long?

Speaker B: Oh, gosh, yeah. Good year, I'd say, before I was back to kind of fighting fitness in terms of my personality and what I was able to do took a really long time. And I think for me, I've always had been in a career that really kind of almost fetishizes working long hours and going above. So I went from journalism and newspapers and working on a daily tv show and then working in corporate communications, which is very deadline driven. And you're working for multiple clients, you're juggling multiple deadlines and priorities. So I guess I accidentally ended up in a career that gave me the dopamine. It definitely gave me all of that and the reward of kind of success coming in on a daily basis. But the toll that it took on me is absolutely huge. And when I got so ill, the time that I just mentioned after that, I didn't know I had ADHD, but I knew that something needed to change in my life. So I started to do some things or kind of build a framework for myself that once I was diagnosed and it all made sense to me, I was just really glad, in a way, that I'd had that episode because I'd already started to not fix, but certainly kind of just try and build my business and my life in a way that was kind of catering to that, I suppose, and was kind of protected. I was already building a level of self protection in without actually knowing what it was. And then when I was diagnosed, and then when I learned about burnout and why it's so prevalent kind of alongside ADHD, why the two things often go together, all the pieces fell into place, and I finally realized why this had been an issue for me for so long. But I'm not saying I've got it perfectly down. There's something I work on all the time. And last week we talked about resolutions, didn't we? And kind of letting go of the idea of New Year's resolutions. But one of the things I was intent on inviting in this year, in 2024, is, number one, notice the signs of burnout before they get too bad, because usually it's too late. When I've had these episodes previously, by the time you realize it's too late, it's too far gone. So one of the things I'm working on this year is, if it starts to happen, noticing the signs earlier. And number two was to write an emergency burnout plan for myself. So, essentially, if you feel it happening, here are the buttons that I need to press, or here are the things that I need to do, literally, a set of instructions for myself for how I pull myself out of that mode. So, yeah, it's a work in progress. And I'm curious about your experiences of burnout in your life, Katie.

Speaker A: Well, I think I experience it differently in as much as, like we said in the other episode, on goals and setting intentions. I am literally listening to that thinking, oh, my God, there's a part of me that is so envious again that you can push yourself so hard and so long and you have that capacity. I know that's a ridiculous statement probably, but there is a part of me, if I'm truthful, that really is in awe of that because that is not my experience. I'm definitely the underachiever because I just couldn't. Now this is a thing actually because I know we're very different, but I can see through the people that I work with that are like, I would say I hate this phrase, but I can't think of a better, like Taipei high achievers that really have the capacity to juggle all of the. You were talking then about juggling your accounts and your deadlines. Now I literally can't process things, just simple things like timetables and scheduling and things like that and deadlines. I mean, I know everyone loves a deadline, even me, because that motivates me to actually do what's important. But I just don't think I have the capacity you have. That is not in me to work like that.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I never ran around like a. Because I just couldn't.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Because I'm not wired like that, obviously. I think I'm just way more slower essentially, but that doesn't mean that I haven't experienced burnout. But for me it's definitely a mental fatigue, a total being in my head and overthinking and creating catastrophizing. So it's not like a physical burnout for me. It is more like I need to literally take my head out and rest a bit.

Speaker B: And there's this thing about people with ADHD. We have to burn more cognitive energy just to get through the day. Right? So just to get through getting up, having a shower, doing things, cooking, the things that might come naturally to other people, we just burn more energy doing the basics.

Speaker A: Yes, because we just have to kind of think or overthink about everything. Like the decision making process of I'm getting in the shower now. I'm going to go for a run now. I was listening to somebody I was working with yesterday talking about that. It was just making me laugh because I could just totally recognize it that just paralysis by the overthinking and too many choices and don't know what choice to make first because of the prioritization process and the inability to do that.

Speaker B: Very efficiently, I guess our struggles with executive function. Sorry to jump across to you, but that's a big thing for people with ADHD is that kind of constant decision stress. So by the end of an average day, we are already running on empty compared to neurotypical people. So when you then pile on top of that. Whatever the demands are, it doesn't need to be work. It could be absolutely anything, because we'll overthink anything. We have this in amazing capacity that we have. Right? Absolutely anything. And that is exhausting. And I don't know about you, but before big events, so I have to. I used to have to anyway, but still do, to a degree, go to a lot of kind of black tie dinners and networking events and things that afterwards I would just feel exhausted by and I didn't understand. And even in the run up, I would feel such anxiety that I knew. It's almost as if my body knew that what I was about to do was going to send me into the red, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: I thought it was just anxiety. Just. I was socially awkward, but I'm not. Put me in a room, and I love being with people, and I light up when I meet interesting people and can ask them questions. I'm so curious about people. So it's not that. It's almost as if my body can predict that I'm about to go into a situation that is going to take from me more than it gives. We have limited energy. If you think about that idea of our body having a budget, we're already burning through so many resources in just a typical day. So when you layer other things on top of that over a long period of time, that's where burnout shows up. And I think it's not just about our bodies, it's about our brains, it's about our nervous systems. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about in the way you experience it. Is it?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it is.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Mine's just less physical because I literally can't run around doing all those things. And maybe it's different for me as well, because I used to be a performer, a dancer, I've had a different kind of functioning, which allowed me to be kind of more in the body, I suppose, than just in the head.

Speaker B: Yes. Oh, my goodness. That feels like a real light bulb moment there. Because I think if you're not connected to your body in a way that as a dancer and as an actress, you will have had to have been very much present in your body and thinking about breath and all of these things. I think for so many women with ADHD, especially if you work in a deaf based job, you live in your head. We've talked about this before, haven't we, how bad we are at listening to our bodily signals. So I'll say it again, if I need a wi. I don't know. Until I really need a wi, I'm not very well tuned into my body. And so for me, burnout happens when the mental exhaustion gets so extreme that my body breaks down. My immune system says, no, you're not doing this anymore. Because I think I have really poor signals. And it sounds to me as if you have very much the opposite in that you're in your body. You know, kind of when you need to stop, it's your mind that doesn't stop.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. It's really interesting because I'd never thought of it until recently, but I think it is a big thing because obviously I've done breath work from a really young age, and I've actually been thinking about meditative practices and stuff for, like, ever and ever. And I just think maybe I've just trained my body differently in some ways, and then other people experience their fatigue in a slightly different way because we are all so different and so similar.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. The causes and the words might be the same, but I think how we experience them is so, so different. And in a way, I'm kind of really envious of you because things like meditation, I was 40 before I learned to do that. I didn't think I could do it for such a long time because my mind was always racing. I've never been in tune with my body or my hormonal cycle. I've been so busy living in my head and that internal motor just driving me, driving me, driving me that I very often ignore my body. I'll ignore niggles. So I get serious injuries related to running. I just don't listen to my body. So I'm just going to throw that back at you. I'm actually quite envious of your ability to be in tune with yourself. And that's something that I'm working on very hard and hope to get a lot better at this year. Definitely.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm also kind of focusing even more and more on that. On, like the. And I'll talk about this later because I think it could be really helpful for some people. And often things, the things we find the most kind of daunting or that's not for us is often the thing that we are avoiding the most, I think so experiential feeling emotions like not labeling them good and bad and just being able to regulate ourselves and allowing that, giving ourselves permission, it's not like a waste of time. I think what you've had an experience, like you, Sarah, where you obviously really pushed yourself to the very know you've got no choice then but to sit up and notice. And obviously you did and you made those changes. But often it's like we're so extreme in our, because also we're really ambitious and want everything. It's not like we're like, oh, there's something wrong with us. We're broken. We're often so many things that it's hard to fit them all into this little human box. And the opposite of actually not most people. A lot of people don't have the capacity for all of the things and the thoughts, the ideas, the energy, all of the stuff that also can be a hindrance is a massive, huge, beautiful thing.

Speaker B: Yeah. And also we live in a society that rewards it. Right? We live in late capitalism where we're told that actually achievement is rewarded, long hours are rewarded. Status, money, all the things that often can come with that drive and that level of ambition. We're told that these are things we should be striving for. We're not told to slow down. I feel like the kind of whole wellness industry is a fairly new thing that we're talking about having to slowing down as women and getting in tune with our bodies.

Speaker A: It's really actually, when you think about it, really late comer to the party.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because capitalism doesn't benefit when we rest. Right. And so I think that quite often, because society rewards the behavior that actually damages us, it can take a long time, well, for me anyway, to realize that actually this is damaging and I want to get off that treadmill. So another one of my kind of things for this year is to just stop mindless consumption. Do I really want that thing or actually is what I want to work a few hours less a week or an over a month to be able to spend much more time with my son and kind of thinking about those things, what really matters and what's really important. I'll come on to this a bit later because we've had a few listeners write in with their stories, which I'm really keen to share. And one of them actually kind of is really good on this idea of what's important. And yeah, we can come back to that. But yeah, I just wanted to mention that idea of the things that we think are important are usually not.

Speaker A: Yeah, because we don't take the opportunity to kind of reflect and really kind of sit with what we've decided or we were just on autopilot anyway, chasing the next thing, especially with the motor running on. So it is important, isn't it to just pause and just think, right, okay, why am I doing this? What do I want to feel? What is the fear? That is, if I don't do this, something is going to happen to me or my identity and what people think of me and all of that stuff, and it's all tied into this burnout state that we can get ourselves into.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for listeners, we cannot overestimate. It's impossible to overestimate the kind of burden, the mental burden that ADHD puts on our physical health, on our mental health, and our stress and cortisol levels as well. So we are constantly trying to overcompensate, to fit into a world that wasn't set up for us, a world that is draining for us. It's challenging for us. And also lots of us will have been diagnosed for a long time. And when you're late diagnosed, you've spent a lifetime thinking that you're broken. Or when I've had time off in the past because I've been burnt out, I have told myself that I am lazy. I have beat myself up for needing to take that time off and not understanding. Without the understanding of a diagnosis, we often don't understand why our energy is kind of depleting so quickly. And then when you don't understand that, it's impossible to think about what things kind of replenish your energy, because you look at other people around you who seem to be doing so much more and doing fine. And I think comparing yourself is another thing that can contribute to burnout. You should be doing more.

Speaker A: I should be doing huge.

Speaker B: I remember this just a few years ago when I hadn't made my son's birthday cake, which I never have, by the way. I've always served birthday cakes because I'm not a baker. And I remember talking to a mum from his school who was showing me pictures of this brilliant birthday cake that she'd made. And I just went into this state of real panic internally, thinking, I'm a terrible mother. I've never baked a birthday cake for him. And then I was doing the mental calculations of how much time would that take. Okay, so probably about 4 hours. I'd need to think about the ingredients. I'd probably get it wrong, so I'd need to build in time to make another one. And I couldn't afford that time with the kind of job and commitments that I had. But I think comparing yourself to other people, as with any other area of life, is just a hiding to nothing, really. We need to stop doing that absolutely validate ourselves. No wonder we all feel burnt out at points because we live in a world that is so difficult for us, overstimulates us. We have to do a lot of masking. We're often low on self belief, and so we're kind of trying to overcompensate for that as well. It's forcing living with ADHD in this world.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is that real kind of facade of. We're always seeming to be really, like, trying to put on a show. And there's a mismatch there between our real, authentic Persona, our identity, personal, like, everything that just is us in all those different ways. And having to kind of then mask and fit in and overcompensate, it's actually nuts. So really, I just think underneath all this, it is obviously noticing the signs and being able to kind of put a plan together. I can't wait to hear about your plan, actually. But underneath all that, it's that real finding ways to get more towards self acceptance and that we're enough.

Speaker B: Yeah, that idea. Stop. And I think quite often that level of expert. I need to do more, I need to achieve more, I need to be more. I need to be better. It's not coming. It's reinforced by society's messages. Absolutely. But for me, it comes from inside of me and that perfectionism. We're often people pleasers, aren't we? So we don't like to say no to things. And so saying no is actually one of the things I'm aspiring to do more of this year is just being able to say no and let things go and not feel guilty about not saying yes to everything, but that inner pressure. We feel like we haven't achieved anything with our day. I really struggle with holidays, for example. So if I go on holiday and spend more than one day sitting around a pool, then I feel like I'm failing. I feel like I'm failing my son because I'm not giving him fulfilling experiences around travel. And I also feel like I've just wasted a day. I still really struggle to relax. I really struggle with it because there's this voice inside me that tells me I don't deserve to rest. It's guilt. I think some of this is about upbringing and the messages we get in childhood. And I think the work that we often have to do is learn to recognize that voice and then learn to silence it and learn to tell it that it's wrong. Because we are not that voice. We are hearing that voice, but it is not us. And we can separate ourselves from that if we practice that. But it takes practice.

Speaker A: It takes work. This is not easy. And I know we've all heard this so many times, we are not our thoughts, but this kind of level of inquiry and deconstructing, untangling our thought processes is absolutely pivotal, in my opinion, because these thought storms, like I like to call them, they come and they go. But really, if you were really to kind of unpick the contents of them, or if they're just like a glimpse, like a waft, like a thought, and then we're literally in the thought, then the next thought comes. It's a load of absolute ****. Most it really taking us on this journey because we're so identified with thought, especially in this know thinking and cognitive function and all of that. But actually, it is so unhelpful for so many things. I'm just wondering, Sarah, as well, when do you, in the past, when have you felt the most relaxed? Do you think, can you even think of that as being a thing or a know?

Speaker B: If? I have to think about the last time I felt relaxed, I think it's a sad indictment that I'm struggling. As you asked that question, I was thinking, oh, God, I have to force myself to do things. Like once a month I'll get a massage and I do relax really well. Physically, I'm not doing anything. I have to force myself to not move and not be doing things by literally forcing myself to sit on a.

Speaker A: Bed, down onto a bed. I love that pummel.

Speaker B: I can't move. I can't check my emails, but I can think. And so often I'll get my best ideas doing a massage because my brain is allowing itself to do what it does best when it's not kind of overloaded. But I'm still getting that kind of constant overthinking. So really struggling to think of a time when I felt really relaxed. It probably involved alcohol, which is something that.

Speaker A: No, I get it. I'm just thinking for me.

Speaker B: But it's not real relaxation then, and you pay for it the next day for me. So it's really sad. I feel that.

Speaker A: No, but it is what it is. It is what it is. And what relax means to you might be very different to what relax means to me.

Speaker B: Yeah, you've made me think of something. So when I'm reading, I feel relaxed. I feel relaxed in the sense that I get so lost in a good book, I'm reading one at the moment that everything else is just completely shut out. So it feels like I love books. I'm really passionate about libraries and my council work because I feel that books are often a passport to new world. Yes, we can't perhaps afford to get to or we can't travel to, but books will take you there. It's really hard to find the time to read, but I do force myself to read at least a few pages every night before I fall asleep and that is how I kind of really empty my head. But you might argue that even that is doing something, but I don't think it matters.

Speaker A: Right. So that is another self judgment, isn't it? Because I totally feel that that is relaxing and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. It's like, what makes you feel that word, that kind of peace and that being taken away? It doesn't matter what it is.

Speaker B: Yeah. So reading 100% and meditation as well. To a degree I feel very relaxed after coming out of a meditation. But then switching into needing to do stuff can be difficult for reasons we've discussed before about tasks switching. But yeah, definitely reading. And I'd like to say travel because I love travel, but very, very rarely relax. When I'm traveling, I'm kind of always thinking, especially as a single parent, I've taken my son to. We went to India a few years ago and it was an amazing experience for us both, but also really stressful because you're know, how am I going to get from here to here and what are we going to eat? And is the border safe? And you're constantly kind of got all of this external stimuli that you're coping with. But I do like escaping my kind of day to day life by going to different places. But I need to get a lot better at being able to just sit and be in those places and not trying to fit in a million things. Yeah, I think there's a balance because.

Speaker A: I'm just listening and feeling into what you're saying and I just think doing can be relaxing, but it's the type of doing and exploring that's only quite stressful in India because India can be really stressful, but it doesn't have to be sitting, does it? Or it's whatever is like that relaxation state you can be doing and exploring and still be relaxed.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree, definitely. It's so personal, isn't it? But I'm just kind of waffling about this and probably this is a bit like therapy, this episode for me, because I'm realizing how far I need to go, which is why I'm really grateful that we've had some listeners who've come. Yeah, great. So I'm in this community of kind of ADHD women who listen to the show, and they're wonderful. And one of them is the very awesome Shona Jamieson. And she's written an excellent book called why you skipped your workout, which is all about why we're so inconsistent as women with ADHD and why we can't stick to things and kind of tips and techniques for helping us do that. But Shona is really interesting. She's such a dynamic woman. She's absolutely incredible. And she talks about her experiences of burnout, going all the way back to school, where she was missing more than a day a week on average. She was getting, like, 74% attendance, I think, but she was getting really good grades, so nobody noticed. Now, she wasn't diagnosed until much later, but she's had multiple episodes of burnout, including one really serious car crash, which she thinks partly caused by being so burnt out. And since her diagnosis, she's really been able to kind of build a framework for herself. And she had some really lovely and helpful tips, I think. And they're definitely ones that I recognize. So one, we've talked about it a bit, but setting reasonable expectations. So are your expectations support of yourself, supporting you to live the life you want that's aligned with your values, or are they ******** you over? And you mentioned the word curiosity earlier, and I think often we don't get curious enough about why do I expect this of myself? What's driving this? So I think setting reasonable expectations of yourself is a really good tip. And another thing she talks about is valuing the progress you are making, because so often we're striving for some distant goal.

Speaker A: Or.

Speaker B: She talks about recording the small wins. And I love she talked about in her diary, she will write down, I had a protein rich breakfast today, and give herself a star and a tick and a circle for that because that is a great way of setting up your day. So it doesn't matter if you didn't do the workout you were planning to do or you didn't manage to go on that walk, but you have done things to kind of help or support yourself and valuing those and making sure you write them down so that you can refer back to them. Otherwise you end your day thinking, I achieved nothing today, when actually you achieved a huge amount and not underestimating that.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: She also talked about this idea of apologizing, and I think, as people pleaded, I'm certainly guilty of this. We apologize all the time. Don't we? Sorry I'm late. And she said it became much more powerful for her to stop saying sorry and start saying thank you. So instead of sorry I'm late, sorry I didn't deliver this thing on time, or you say thank you for your patience.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that.

Speaker B: So much more powerful. So thank you, Shona.

Speaker A: I'm stealing that, for sure.

Speaker B: She also talked about the power of breath work in helping her kind of work on her episodes and cycles of burnout. So understanding how your breath impacts your body now, I've kind of dabbled with breathwork a little bit, and I know, Katie, you're really good on this through your work as a dancer and a performer. Could you talk a bit about breath work and how it's helped you and kind of why you think it's important?

Speaker A: Yes, because I just think that it is something to. If we were going to try and regulate ourselves, breath is our life force and it's something that we've all got that we can all kind of hold onto as kind of like an object. A bit like your meditation that you do, TM meditation, don't you, where you have a mantra or a word? I think breath can be helpful just in the fact that it's something we can attune to. And notice it's a point of reference to start with. So there's so many different kinds of breath work, and actually breath work, it might sound dull to some, but it can be absolutely super powerful. And actually, like, if you don't know what you're doing with super powerful breath work, it can really take you into a state of the opposite of regulating the nervous system, which sometimes is what we are. And especially with ADHD, we are often looking for big experiences. And I've actually been on a Zoom breath work call through a friend sent me a link and I didn't ask her about the kind of breath work it was, but it was kind of. I can't pronounce it, but not holotropic, something along those lines. But anyway, she was in Dubai, this lady, with hundreds of people doing this breath work, and I literally went into. Which can easily happen, and I knew it, thank God. But if you didn't know this, it could send you lupus. I'm just caveatting this because all breath work does not regulate the nervous system. You can really trip out and it's brilliant potentially, if you know what you're doing, but it can really be shocking if you don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah. Bit of experience of this. I did a breath work course with a one to one practitioner last year. And we actually played with this a bit. The idea of kind of breathing that gets you into that state where you almost feel high, I can understand how it would completely freak you out if you weren't working with a practitioner. And I know there's privilege attached to that as well. Is there anywhere that you would recommend listeners to start kind of looking or doing some research on breathwork? Any kind of good resources on the Internet?

Speaker A: No, I don't, actually, but I can have a look because I never remember the names of anything because for me, I've got my own little ways of doing it, so I don't really. And my friend Daisy is a breath work practitioner and I do stuff with her, but other than that. And obviously I had this little foray which I went back to and was like, oh, my God, this was just shocking because there's lots of people out there very, like, with the best intentions, but I just don't think people know what they're letting themselves in for sometimes, which is fine.

Speaker B: But, yeah, breathing is hugely powerful. I think you need to know what you're doing. So, yeah, we'll have a think about some resources we can point people to and put them in the show notes, perhaps practitioners that we can recommend. But, yeah, I've definitely got experience of that, being powerful. So, yeah, Shona was brilliant. She summarized it as, don't expect the world of yourself, count your wins, do some breathing, which I thought was nice because it's easy to remember three things. And then I wanted to move on to the story of a listener called Bethan, who I hope is going to be a guest in the future. This is Bethan Davis. She's a communications consultant. She's absolutely, again, just really impressive, has worked on lots and lots of award winning campaigns that have made a real difference in society. So she got in touch and talked about her having a very severe episode of Burnout that meant she couldn't even open a laptop for six weeks and she couldn't really do anything. A bit like I mentioned about mine earlier, apart from walking around parks and looking at trees, she couldn't do a thing. And that episode actually led to her diagnosis. And she also said it took 18 months to recover properly. But what she did was work with a burnout coach. I didn't even know such a thing existed. And that coach really helped her change her life. And now she talks about she's built her business in a way that protects her and I think I just want to recognize for a moment, the privilege of being able to do so. So if you're listening and you work for yourself and you have the kind of capacity and the power to be able to change the way you live or the way your day is structured, then I just want to recognize that for a lot of people, that's not possible. So if you're in a job or in a corporate environment under a huge amount of pressure, not that it's not pressured being self employed, by the way. There's a huge amount of pressure. I think it's just different that we have a huge amount of privilege if you're self employed and actually recognizing that is really important and then deciding, actually, I can do something with this privilege, because to a degree, and I know there are always constraints to this, especially if you're caring for young ones or sick parents, but to a degree, there is that kind of freedom there, or that autonomy to shape your day in a way that suits your needs. So Bethan talked about in her recovery, the things that were really important were daily yoga. She can't meditate, so she uses yoga as that meditative movement her day. The other thing that she just will not compromise on is getting her face in the sun first thing in the morning. So even if it's pouring, with getting outside, being outside, getting that daylight. She also used a phrase which really tickled me. She calls herself a tree pervert because she finds trees really grounding, and she'll often just go up and touch trees and kind of want to be in contact.

Speaker A: Me too. You'll often see me hugging a tree. I stop the car sometimes and get out and oh, my God, that's hilarious.

Speaker B: I love looking at them. I don't think I've ever touch more trees.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, really grounding.

Speaker B: She also talked about some tips in terms of your work. So setting parameters for when you finish, because just because you're in hyper focus doesn't mean you should stay in one. Only you can snap you out of the hyper focus. So that's where having an alarm or a timer or using the pomodoro 25 minutes sprint techniques can often help with our brains. And then she said something really interesting, that when she feels she's getting sick or if she rests and if she feels she's overwhelmed, she takes a few days off. Now, this made me feel really anxious just reading this. She says if she fast, she doesn't double down to get what's stressing her out done, she drops it and she takes a break because she knows when she goes back to it. She will be better, she will have more to bring to that a brilliant.

Speaker A: And can I just say, sorry to interrupt you.

Speaker B: No, please.

Speaker A: I just love this because this is something, she's experienced this as being true. And I think once you've experienced this as being true, then you're going to do it, because why wouldn't.

Speaker B: Again, harder. If you're in a real job. I say real job. Bethan is absolutely real job. I'm in a real job. But if you have a boss or somebody who you need to justify this, that becomes much harder. But I think the conversation on neurodiversity has moved forward so much, just even in the last few years. And I think if you can be open, good, understanding, employers will understand that to get the best from you, we cannot work like Amsterdams on a wheel. AdHD people don't work like that sometimes. We do need that raft, we do need that restorative battery recharge, but we will come back better, we will come back with more creativity, with more energy. And so I think really it's about having those conversations with the people around you, and if they don't understand, it's then thinking about, is this the place where I'm going to do my best work? And that's a bigger question and maybe a whole other series of episodes, but that was really interesting for me, that Bethan talked about, really reframing her thoughts about perfectionism. And what she completely reevaluated was her idea of what's important. So she'll often look at her diary the week ahead and take stuff out. So she'll ask herself the question, is this really important? And if it doesn't feel important to her and doesn't match with her values or how she wants to kind of live her life, then she takes it out of the diary. Now, that takes guts. It takes, again, a certain amount of privilege in terms of your working setup. But I am so looking forward to adding this to my own burnout plan because I think that would having the confidence to just say, I meant it when I put it in the diary, but actually, I don't think it's going to work for me. And doing that unapologetically, but with kindness, if you're letting other people down, is really important because we have to parent ourselves. There's nobody else stood on the sideline telling us, you're doing too much. We have to be that parent to ourselves, really.

Speaker A: And that just while I remember, because it'll escape my brain. On that note, I find with people, this is kind of a scary process, but once you start, it's actually so relieving. This is like a financial thing, but if you can get onto paper and out of your fantasy and probably like nightmarish fantasies about the financials, what the minimum required would be in your life financially, what you could actually live on, that can be a huge freer upper of what you think you need to acquire and do workspace.

Speaker B: It comes back to that strip. And again, I guess there's a huge amount of privilege. I'm not working a minimum wage job, and I guess then there are a lot of people out there who'll be listening, who are really kind of having to lean into working incredibly, incredibly hard just to survive. So I just want to acknowledge that. However, I think certainly for myself, just last year, for the first time in my life, I made a spreadsheet of what I have coming in and going out. I'd never done it before because I'm terrified of spreadsheets, believe it or not, and I have to deal with them in work. So in my home environment, they have no place. But when I did that, I realized actually, I could afford to earn a reasonable amount less, and that would free up this amount of time. But I appreciate that. Sounds like a huge amount of privilege. And have I done it? Have I taken the steps to actually do that?

Speaker A: No, but what I'm saying it for, it doesn't really matter whether you take the steps, but, you know, so in terms of burnout, we've got all these stories of why we can't slow down or stop and we've got it. But I just think when you start to, like, if you, you know, you know that somewhere in your awareness, you know, that it kind of takes a layer off.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: It can do anyway for some people, some people never going to do that because just don't want to look at any of the money. And I totally appreciate that as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. Although less able to. But I think anything that, because you're right, we tell ourselves stories. And for me, it's never been about money anyway. I think that's what's really interesting. I am not driven to make money. My career has never been about money. Or I think I would have done something very different if it was that internal motor, that relentless drive to go, go, whether it's physically or mentally, is the thing that we really have to grapple with. And often it's not about money. And I think that's the struggle, is you even take the money away, doesn't necessarily take that kind of driving force away. I think so much of it, for me anyway, is just really kind of guarding my energy, being really conscious of my mental space and what I let into it. Coming off social media was huge for me because I felt coming off most social media anyway, because that was definitely taking some time off in my day and contributing to the things that really kind of flow into burnout, like comparing myself to other people, thinking I'm not doing enough. All of that is absolutely reinforced for me by social media. So coming away from it has actually kind of given me more space to lean into the life that I want to live. So that's been a big thing, too. But I think, like so many of these things, thinking about how do we want to feel? And you said something really interesting in a previous episode about so many of us are running away from our feelings. We don't want to feel the difficult things. So we fill that space with work, we fill it with social life, we fill it with so many things just to not have to feel feelings. And that's where problems with food often come in. Certainly for me, kind of that avoidance. So, so much of it is about coming back to that fundamental question, how do you want to feel in your life? And then taking the steps to get there.

Speaker A: Yeah. And also what I want to say there is obviously, we tend to be, and many of us with ADHD, big feelers, right. This added another layer of complexity, but I really would love to invite you to, and myself included, because this is what I'm always more and more trying to do anyway, is to allow feelings. Like allow feelings. Try not to label them good or bad, but just like their experiences, however you want to put it, that are just coming. If they're allowed to come through and past us and we don't, then add the words and the stories and the meaning, and then they follow onto thoughts. That's where the pain and the suffering lies. But if we can allow ourselves to really be super self compassionate and kind about our feelings, then they just become much more fluid and kind of bearable. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker B: Becomes less scary, doesn't it? And for me, I think that's a really great point about leaning into those feelings without judgment. They're good or bad. These are feelings, and I recognize them and I validate them. And I also think there's a big piece around giving ourselves permission. And I say this, I'm doing that thing where I'm giving advice, I don't follow myself, but giving ourselves permission to rest to relax, to feel genuine connection with our friends or with our family or people that bring us joy, that permission to create space and freedom and to laugh and play and be creative. I think so often it's not society that's telling us we don't. We do have those constraints, but we can often choose to put the laptop down, go and take that walk, get outside. I think so much of this is in our power, and often we think it isn't. And the moment we realize that, actually, we can. I think in some of the examples I've given today, people who have unfortunately been pushed to the brink of serious illness, often it's only then you realize that not only can you do these things, but you absolutely must. Because nobody can live in that state for prolonged periods of time. It's just not healthy. We're not here for very long. Right. So we should make the most of it. Yeah. That's a cheerful note on which to end. But it is.

Speaker A: It's important, isn't it? I just think I try and remind myself, especially if I'm in a funk or I'm really resisting emotions. And why are you feeling that? And I remember it's like, my goodness. Yeah, this is it. This is the moment. This is now. This is what we have in this moment. I can just feel it and just live in this moment. Or I could add a load of layers of **** to it if I want to. What am I going to choose?

Speaker B: You're so right that living in the moment. There's a lovely quote about kind of how we measure our worth in the world, which I really loved. I wrote it down, obviously, I can't find it anywhere now, but it was something about, I'll find it and stick it in the show notes.

Speaker A: I love a quote, but I can never remember a quote.

Speaker B: I can never remember them, though. We read it on the weekend, and I thought, actually, this is really important.

Speaker A: And before we end, can I just add a couple of things that might be really helpful? Emotional freedom technique, which I used to just kind of poo poo, actually, for many years.

Speaker B: That's tapping.

Speaker A: Yeah, tapping. Because it can appear to be very complicated. If somebody's trying to kind of like, well, it's great, but it's very simple. It can be.

Speaker B: Okay, tell me more.

Speaker A: And basically, it kind of mirrors or mimics the acupuncture pressure points. And it releases kind of emotion, feelings, and processes it through the body. And when I was in one of a real funks at some time in my life, I just thought, right I'm going to give this a go. And it's one of the things that I always teach people now, because they can do it immediately. So I just want to say to you, please don't just dismiss it like I did for many years. Can I just briefly say, sarah? Yeah, of course. Eft. So all you need to do is that you get your three fingers and you tap on the top of your head. That's how I do it.

Speaker B: I'm doing it right now. Right.

Speaker A: Tap on the top of your head.

Speaker B: And then your temples. Is that what you mean?

Speaker A: Just top of the head. What I do the side of the eye. Like the temple under the eye? Yeah. Just keep tapping on one side of the face. You do one round and then you can do the other round, but you can be. You do what you want. Tap under the nose, on the chin, kind of in that cleft little bit, and then in the heart space, the thalmus gland.

Speaker B: And how long do you do this for?

Speaker A: Just as long as you feel the need to before you feel a release, because you will do. And how you can monitor that, if you're a numbers person, is say you're feeling whatever you're feeling, anxious, overwhelmed, whatever it is, on a scale of one to ten, say you're at a nine or a ten, right. And then you do a set. And I'll tell you what to say in a minute. And you can do your own version. Don't make it any more complicated than this needs to be. But it really does release. So you tap on the stub, the head, and you say something like, even though I'm anxious and overwhelmed right now, I choose to love and accept myself and that this feeling will pass. And then you just tap as you go along, along those acupuncture pressure points. And you just say that as you go through.

Speaker B: I already feel really incredible, like I.

Speaker A: Haven'T had a person that it hasn't shifted things for. You might have to play around with what you say.

Speaker B: Google it.

Speaker A: Dead easy. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it really does work.

Speaker B: Amazing. Would you do this a few times a day or just when you're feeling.

Speaker A: When you're feeling it. Or if you just want to release and even unconsciously, you might feel something funny in your body, then you just might want to tap through it. Another thing is something called Tre, which is called tension trauma releasing exercises. And it's relatively new to me and it's so simple, but my God, it is incredible. And how it was kind of. He's just put it onto YouTube as a free resource. But there are practitioners, and it's Dr. David Bicelli. And basically he noticed when he was in the bomb shelters in the Middle east and he worked all over the world that children who had them were shaking and then would release their tension and trauma, but the parents were, like, fixed in fear. And over time, he's worked with everyone because we all have stuff in our bodies that we're not even aware of. And there's these seven very simple exercises that you do and, well, just try it for yourself.

Speaker B: It's amazing. We'll make sure we put the link to that in the show notes as well because I'm really curious about finding out more about that. So we'll put that web address in the show notes so people can go and find out more about that.

Speaker A: All of these things are regulating our nervous systems to get us into the opposite of burnout.

Speaker B: Amazing. I have found the quotes. Thank you for sharing those tips. I'm really curious to hear from listeners about whether they use them, how they get on with know. I think tapping could be a new.

Speaker A: Thing for me for it's so simple and so effective.

Speaker B: Do you mind if I read this?

Speaker A: No, please do.

Speaker B: So. This is from Adam Grant, who's a psychologist. I just think this is a really powerful note to end the episode on for anybody that's going through burnout or desperately trying to make sure they don't get there again. He says, your worth is not defined by what you achieve or what you acquire. It's a question of who you become and how you contribute to others. Your self esteem should come from character, not success and not status. The highest accomplishment is to be a person of generosity, curiosity and integrity. And I just think that's a beautiful way to.

Speaker A: You know what, Sarah? I know this is going to sound cheesy, but you are all of those things.

Speaker B: I'll quit it. So you are too. Really?

Speaker A: Honestly, when you just said that, I.

Speaker B: Just thought, oh, yeah, that's you. It's in so many of us ADHD women, it's just about fine. It's just realizing it's enough that we are enough as we are.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's so true. I know it sounds so hard to believe sometimes, but we see in each other. That's the point. But we don't allow ourselves to see in ourselves.

Speaker B: Yeah. This episode is a permission validation for people that you need to see that in yourself. You need to see that you're enough. But I know it's not that easy. Often takes a hell of a lot of work but yeah, to anyone out there that's going through this, you are not alone. And I know Katie, over the next few months we're going to be inviting on various guests who to be talking about their advice for dealing with ADHD burnout as well. So hopefully today was the start of a longer conversation we can have with listeners about this.

Speaker A: Yeah, be brilliant to hear if you try anything or if things work for you that you want to share and that we can share with others, that'd be amazing. So thank you so much for tuning in again and listening to us and we will see you next time. You, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you would like more of this kind of stuff join us at we love pupil school. For people that want to create lasting relationships, great communication and build a life that means that they can be fully themselves. Thank you for listening.