What if Play Is The Language Your Child Needs You to Speak?

Your child’s “just playing” is doing something huge: building a safer nervous system, a stronger attachment bond, and better emotional regulation. We sit down with senior clinical therapist Lauren Buice to translate play therapy concepts into real-life parenting you can actually use at home. We talk about play as a child’s first language and why child-led play is so different from typical games where adults correct, teach, and steer. When kids lead within safe boundaries, they feel secure enough to learn and connect, and that changes everything from behavior to trust.

We dig into the science in plain English: dopamine that supports motivation and joy, oxytocin that strengthens bonding, and mirror neurons that help kids absorb our tone, facial expressions, and emotional cues. We also unpack a core truth for parents and caregivers: kids cannot learn when they feel unsafe. Play is one of the fastest ways to signal safety, which is why it often reduces power struggles and helps kids practice perspective taking and flexibility without another lecture.

We get practical about what happens when play goes sideways. We share how to set simple agreements, hold boundaries without shaming, and repair quickly so the relationship stays bigger than the correction. We also cover why many adults feel awkward playing and how humor can soften everyone’s stress response, lower cortisol, and even improve transitions like getting out the door or putting shoes on.

If you want parenting strategies that support connection, co-regulation, and healthier child development, hit play. Then subscribe, share this with a parent friend, and leave a review so more families can find the episode.

To learn more about Lauren and the work she does, you can find her at:

https://www.risetherapycenter.com/lauren

Thank you for tuning into And Still WE Rise! If you would like to learn more about me or the work our practice is doing, feel free to follow us on Instagram at:

@atltherapygirl and @risetherapycenter

Or check us out at www.risetherapycenter.com

Disclaimer: And Still We Rise is meant to provide perspective and meaningful conversations around mental health topics. It is not meant to provide specific therapeutic advise to individuals. If anything in these podcasts resonates, ASWR recommends consulting with your individual therapist or seeking a referral from your primary care physician.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello and welcome back to In Still We Rise. I'm your host, Christine Seidel, and today we have our senior therapist, Lauren Bice, here with us today. Yay! She's back. We love our conversations with Lauren. She always brings a fresh perspective and interesting topics. So we love having her. So before we get started, are you okay with me doing an introduction? Yes, absolutely. Perfect. All right. Joining us today is Lauren Bice, a senior clinical therapist and leadership partner at RISE Therapy Center. Lauren is a licensed professional counselor and national certified counselor who specializes in making the deep work of therapy accessible through the power of play. Whether she's working with elementary age children or navigating the complexities of the teen years, Lauren is known for her ability to integrate art activities and joy into clinical sessions to help children build lasting regulation skills. Beyond the therapy room, she serves as a psychometrist, providing vital assessments to help families advocate for their children's needs in school. Lauren is a passionate community educator who believes that when we understand the intersection of neurobiology and connection, we can transform the parent-child relationship. She's here today to help us bridge the gap between clinical theory and the living room floor. Welcome back, Lauren. I love that. Yes. Oh, that is such a perfect explanation of Lauren's work. Like she is phenomenal in working with children, and play is definitely a language that she speaks. Yes. Yes. So we're excited to have this conversation. So to begin, you know, a lot of people, and if anybody watches our socials, they see that we do a lot of play here and that it is actually work. But can you tell us just a little bit around what is play in in our world, you know, in a child's world? What is play?

What Play Really Means

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Wow. Okay. So play, I think, going back to what you just said, like play is a language. Play is the first language really that kids develop, and play is this understood language between specifically what we're talking about today, between parents and kids. It is for the brain, this like miracle grow. Yeah. It is the one um route in which kids' brains grow and develop in this really amazing and complex way. So, yes, we're talking about play and therapy is what I get to do all the time. I absolutely love it and it's great. Um, but play at home is really what we're going to talk about today. Play between children and parents, and talking about why that is so vital for attachment and bonding between parents and their kids.

Dopamine Oxytocin And Learning

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah. And, you know, even if you don't have children, this is such a fascinating topic because I don't think there's a single adult out there that has not watched a child go into their world of play and just literally get immersed into it. You know, we have the privilege of working with younger kids and being with them and play in a regular way, but even just observing kids, you know, what is that for them? I mean, to be able to go, you know, I remember even when my children were a lot younger, being like, hey, it's time for dinner, and they were just lost in that space. So what is actually happening in play for children?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Ah, good question. So for play for children, one is a sense of like immersion and letting go, right? You will come back to your kid and he's still playing with the same two toys like two hours later. Yep. And that's an element of play, is that like getting outside of yourself, getting outside of time, um, and it's exploration, like in a very rich inner world that actually then applies to the outer world in a really cool way. So, and of course, there's also the chemicals, right, that come from play, especially play with others. We've got dopamine, which is the feel-good chemical when we get to do things that we really like. Yes. So we've got dopamine that we our brains naturally crave. We've got oxytocin, so that's the bonding hormone. So when you're playing with your child, that oxytocin is being released. We've got mirror neurons that are firing. So just neurologically, a lot is happening in that child's brain when they are lost in that play space. Yeah. And spoiler alert, parents actually play too. Adults actually play too.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

And if they don't, they need to.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Exactly, exactly. But you know, it's it's funny, you know, disclosure, I don't have kids myself yet, but um, I have parents all the time. They they come to me and they're like, Miss Lauren, how did you bond with my kids so quickly? Yeah. Like there's a difference between just regular, what people just assume is play, and then the deep richness of child-led play, again, which is something that we're gonna kind of talk about and explore.

Child-Led Play Builds Safety

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Yeah, and I think that, you know, understanding the neurobiology of all the hormones and you know, everything that's kind of emitted during play, and to know that that is actually something that we have access to internally that we knew to do as children. Of course, we didn't know that's what we were doing as children, but to know that that was like a way for us as individuals to go into a space and we kind of say that's where we work our stuff out as kids. You know, we're kind of really making sense of the world, we're learning, and through that we're getting like the dopamine and then the oxytocin. That's all something that's actually intrinsically available to us at that time, you know. And and as we grow and develop, you know, as adults, we're like, I forgot how to play, right? But it is important that we come into that space, especially, you know, if we have or work with children to understand why that adult child-led play is important. So, can you tell us a little bit more about what is that? Yes. Why is that important?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yes, okay. So adult child-led play is different than just, oh, I'm gonna go outside and maybe play kickball with my kid. You know, when we're talking about child-led play, we really truly mean the child is leading. You are not offering, like, hey, you just called the that's not how we play kickball, you know, hey, there's rules, or hey, uh, that's not a fork, that's a spoon. Yeah. Not offering that correction, um, not offering even necessarily suggestion, letting them lead and take this where they want to go is is what we're talking about. And I think that's the difference that a lot of parents miss because when we think of play, we think of board games, which are great. We think of, oh, I want to play in the dollhouse, but then the parent, maybe in a cute way, uh, gets too wrapped up in what they want to do. Or what the family should be doing. And I want to be the pink Barbie, you know? And while there's some some space for that like negotiation and stuff, when we're talking about child-led therapy, they don't get that really in any spaces in society for a chance for a kid to really have full autonomy within boundaries, within safety, right? Yeah, but full autonomy over what an adult says and does and how they engage with them is really this unique space that often only happens in the parent-child relationship. Yeah. And what that signals to the kid is safety, right? We as humans, adult or kids, we cannot play if we are dysregulated or if we don't feel safe. So what happens when a child and an adult play together is it signals to the kid, I am safe. And that is the only time when learning can happen. A kid cannot so true. A kid cannot learn when, quite frankly, they cannot learn if you are just lecturing them and they are really upset. Yeah. They cannot learn if they are um distracted and not in connection with you.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

So a space like this that's honestly like kind of sacred, right? Where it is child and parent on the same wavelength, giving child power and telling the child you are safe is when they're actually going to be receptive to two lessons. And I'm not talking about, again, a lecture, but just natural lessons that come through play, like reciprocity, um, perspective taking, understanding how other people's feelings work. Like that's when kids learn.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Yeah, and I think that's a really important point. You know, I always said, you know, being a former educator and then coming coming into this field and working with kids, like there's only one learning disability within like the mental health landscape, and that's anxiety. You know, if somebody is having a panic attack and they're extreme anxiety, they're not gonna be able to process information. Everything else can be a learning difference or a challenge, but like disability where you cannot actually learn is when you don't feel safe. Wow. And play is a beautiful place for adults that are in children's world to be able to give them a sense of safety and of authority. You know, there's you know, children have zero authority in their life when we look about at their day and like their schedules and their preferences, it's like there isn't any. It's just kind of like this is what you're gonna do because you're a kid, you know. So play is a beautiful place for them to come into safety with another adult, but also have authority, you know, and and I think a lot of parents or people who work with children are kind of like, oh, I play with them, like we play, you know, I play soccer, we play board games, you know, and yes, and oftentimes those are with other kids or other family members and stuff like that, and we don't really get to go into a child-led space when we're playing these games as a family. Yeah, so why is it important to create that very specific time for one-on-one play with your with your children?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah, okay. So, besides the obvious, like it's fun, it's your child, yeah, right? The bonding that happens. So that that I think it goes back to a little bit of what you were saying with like authority, and maybe this is why parents sometimes have trouble entering that world. I'll go back to you about that in a second. But giving them a space, a safe space to explore autonomy is actually gonna help them with like said decision making, perspective taking, just that brain growth that they really need. And there's this quote, I'll have to look up who it's by, but it's like kids don't want your power, they want their own.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

And I think what happens is parents think that like if they get too enmeshed or if they um not enmeshed, engaged in a child's world that they like somehow are giving away their authority. Yeah, but it's honestly like it's not like you're pouring out of a bucket and your bucket's the authority and like all that. It's like lighting a candle, right? You don't lose the light that you already have, but you're allowing your kid to explore that. And quite frankly, kids need a space where they can control something and it goes horribly wrong, right? Because they're not gonna be able to be good at controlling whatever it is that they want to do or what they want to play with. So, like clumsy control and the opportunity to fail and have authority to not go well again in that safe space is actually gonna help them overcome things later in life, right? Where they can learn, hey, failure is okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah. So what about the you know, parent who is like, yeah, that sounds great in theory. I would love to play with my kid, but like I can't play with them all the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Oh, no, you can't play with them all the time. That's just when you actually want to. No, I'm saying I have a 15-minute window and that's already that's already more play, maybe than a lot of parents are getting with their kids even in a week. Yeah. Um, so wait, what was the question? Yeah, I was saying, what about like parents who are saying, Listen, I can't play with my kids all the time. Yes, you know you cannot play with your kids all the time, and that's okay. And actually for a kid to see that, like, hey, there are times for where adults need to be adults so that kids can be kids, that's really appropriate. And you cannot be your child's sole playmate. You cannot be your child's sole source of entertainment. That is okay. Yeah, but you prioritizing like intentional time where it is like child led, you guys are having fun, rolling on the ground laughing, allows for honestly the rest of your days or weeks to go by smoother. Yeah. Um, have a little less struggle with like transitions and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Yeah, and I think that's an important note is like this isn't saying like you should always be available to play with your kids. It's it's saying, hey, listen, take you know, 30 minutes out of your week to be like, hey, buddy, like this is this is our time to play, like it's all, it's your choice. I get to enter your world. What do you want to play? You know, it's important that we let our kids, you know, be kids too, which is part of that is being bored and having to kind of entertain yourself. But this is this is where a lot of parents are like, hey, if you get all your checks, we'll go get ice cream or this, that, and the other. You know, rather than doing something like that, create space to just be like, hey, regardless of how our week is, we Tuesday evenings is our playtime. Yeah. And you get to pick what we do.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

I love that because really what this is teaching kids is that your bond, your relationship with your kid is bigger than the whoopsies, it's bigger than the consequences, it's bigger than any disruptions that you have to that relationship. So take setting time aside that no matter what, you still have that connection time is gonna tell your kid that consequences and disconnection is temporary.

Boundaries And Repair After Play

SPEAKER_02 13:09

It is, yeah. And that I think that's a really great point is like a lot of times parents get and adults in general, you know, teachers, therapists, you know, when we work with a lot of kids, we do get stuck in the rules. Like this is what they need to know, these are the rules they have to follow. What am I, you know, they can't go into adulthood being a turd, right? So like I have to teach them these rules. But fundamentally, we also have to recognize that the relationship is really what's more important, you know. We do have rules, but the more we foster this relationship, the easier it is for those children to navigate the rules of the world, right? And our our relationship is protected from those temporary corrections because it's gonna happen, right? Like we're even as adults, we're still learning. Like we're not getting, we don't get this right all the time. So I think it is important to like prioritize the relationship so that you know it can navigate corrections and whatnot. So, which kind of brings me to a point where how do you address when a child maybe is in play with a parent and he is kind of being a little like, you know, and and a parent does feel like there needs to be some level of like boundaries or corrections or or um restructuring of the agreement to come to play.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Okay, well, part of this is you know, you got to look at developmentally where the kid is at, right? That might be super appropriate and expected for three through five, right? Yeah. If a kid is 10 and you're like, oh, you are being a little bit of a turd right now, like somebody needs to give you that feedback, right? Yeah, that might be a little different than the three-year-old that we would expect that from. Yeah, yeah. Um, so one thing I would encourage parents to do is really watch your language, right? Instead of like, hey, you are mean, or like, hey, you are selfish, like, watch that labeling. Um, because what we can say is, oh, that that didn't make me feel very good. Like, oh, I felt really hurt when you said that or did that. You're not labeling the child as mean, selfish, a turd, like whatever it is. You are making sure that you acknowledge what that behavior was and maybe its impact on you. Um, and there's there is space for that, but ideally, you're gonna have times where you're just focused on the child-led play, and you can have times where, hey, this is play, but I can also say, hey, are we playing by your rules or the rules of actual Candy Land?

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

And make that distinction and make the child put the connection of, oh, this isn't how other people play it. And that's okay. But even the parent saying, hey, I will allow you to play it this way, right? But I want you to, I need you to acknowledge that like not everyone wants to play that way all the time.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, and I think that's really important. Like, can you do the correction, so to speak, in the play? Like, oui bowie, I just, you know, you just jumped right over me and and and and pushed me off my marker, even though we both landed on it. I can handle it. I can handle it. I'm wondering, you know, what one of your friends might have said if that was yeah, not having a giant or which some parents do, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Like I have been known to really get into a game of Candyland and I will get frustrated. Yes, I will I will sometimes have to check a client on Uno. I'll be like, landman.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

But isn't that but isn't that a great example of modeling? Yes. Right? Isn't that a great chance for you as a parent to say, hey, if my kid were in this situation with a friend, how would I want them to respond? Typically, you're not gonna want your kid to like knock over the board and say, Yeah, you're cheating, that's not okay. You're gonna want them to have more of a measured response and point out, hey, this I didn't like this, like this isn't okay, but still in that, you know, even like sing-song-y voice to reassure that, like, hey, we are still okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah. And I and I think that that's also something that, you know, if we do have to make corrections and play, like we let those corrections be temporary, and or we set up our agreements at the beginning, like, hey, I'm I'm excited to play. And again, you know, building safety, you know, a child may not really feel necessarily safe to play with a parent or a new adult that's in their lives, you know, that there is some testing that kind of goes on there. And so when we do have to kind of come up with agreements, like, yeah, I'm totally down for play, you know, uh, I can play and I can keep playing as long as we're, you know, you know, respectful, meaning hands are for helping, not for hurting, things like that, you know. So setting some agreements up. And also if there is correction that does occur. So let's just say, like, a parent or an adult has to be like, okay, well, I think if if we're going to use our hands for hitting, we're gonna have to end our time together right now. You know, when that happens, how do you come back from that? Because I know what a lot of adults are gonna say. They're gonna say, you know, I would love to play with my kid, but my kid can be really mean, you know, and adults will have a really hard time getting into a play space with a kid who's not feeling respectful, right? Is not regulated, right? So, how do you come back from a play session where there had to be some boundaries held?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

No, that's a good point. And honestly, some of this starts with like the parent, right? Like the parent real doing some work and like, why does being disrespected or feeling disrespected, yeah, why is that such a trigger for me? Why does that immediately take me out of this enjoyment that I'm in with my kid? Is that how my kid meant it? Nine times out of ten, no, but even if they do, that's a part of that like testing ability. Um, and I I think I think coming back to repair, right? Like ending on the note of, hey, we're still connected, even though we had to agree that like because you threw the slime on the wall that we were done playing with slime for today. Yeah, like making sure that the last kind of note is still like, hey, we can try again tomorrow. Or hey, what's something else that we can do that doesn't involve slime because we've lost slime for today? Like ending on that good note. But really, parents is gonna start with like, hey, what are you what can you do in that moment for you to stay regulated? And I mean, you can take your deep breaths, you can do your grounding techniques and narrate it out loud, and that kid's gonna be watching you.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah. And I I that's an important thing to note because I think adults fundamentally really struggle with play. Like, I I can't tell you how many adults I've talked to and like kind of coached through coming to a place with their children on, you know, what does that bring up in them when we talk about play? Because a lot of adults are just on this overthinking addiction, you know, need to do, need to figure out, need to fix. And they are so addicted to activation that they can't get to a place of groundedness to allow play to emerge. And it's a it's a play can't be forced.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Is that is that a need for control almost, or like a lack of safety within themselves, you think?

Humor That Keeps Connection

SPEAKER_02 20:05

I I honestly think it it is to some extent a lack of safety when they are just being. Most adults don't like being, they like doing, right? So that does feel unsafe because it feels unfamiliar. And so parents will oftentimes you can actually see them be tense, coming to sit down and what are we gonna play? Okay, well, can I can I can I be blue, you know, and they can't just be in that space of being invited into the into the world of play. Wow, you know, and going back to kind of what we talked about, that play is intrinsically a way that we go within to access the dopamine and oxytocin. We knew how to do that as kids. Yeah, as adults, we become externalized in our seeking of those, right? Something else, someone else, something to scroll scroll, right? We've forgotten how to go back within, yeah, which is a form of being, it's not doing. So I think that's a big piece as to what makes adults super uncomfortable. Um, but play can emerge in a lot of different ways, even if we're not comfortable with figures, humor is a great way to start being playful with our children. So, can you tell me a little bit about how can humor be used in the play space and if corrections are needed?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah, absolutely. Humor is a great way to bond with your kid. I mean, I don't think that anyone as adults can think of a time where they felt closer to somebody just when you're like belly laughing about something, and that's that like memory that is created. Oh, I love it. That is so joyful. Um, but but humor will say like with correction. I think a lot of parents they're like, well, if I just make jokes all the time, my kid's not gonna take me seriously. It's like, okay, sure. If we are making jokes to invalidate feelings or brush over the issue, yeah. If the real issue is actually being addressed, if we are giving a proper correction, if we're saying, hey, this wasn't okay, here's how we Do it again next time, but then we end off on like a oh well that was you know just like a you know yeah funny kind of moment again that comes back to teaching that kid, hey, we are okay, like our relationship is more than this momentary disconnection, this momentary correction. Um, so it absolutely can be utilized again, as long as you're not just sweeping things under the rug or trying to make the kid feel some other way if they're feeling some kind of way.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah, and I think that like when we do have to come back to a place of reflection or you know, connection after correction, like using humor to be like, listen, totally turdy move on uh it during the game, and I have those days too. Sometimes I'm a little stinky, and you know, I have to somebody has to tell me that I'm being a little stinky that day, and that's okay, right? We all have moments where we are not feeling our best. It's just important that we come back and we remember that you know our relationship is important, and so using humor to soften, you know, a correction or that coming back to connection, and then also for adults, like if you're having a hard time getting into play, like doing something as simple as like talking in an English accent. What are we playing today, son? You know, Australia. Well, you know, like all of my accents have the same. So, you know, finding ways to get your own nervous system a little more softened to be able to be in a play space with your kids is a is a really important thing because ultimately, if we create space to be intentional and play with our children, what can we expect to have happen within that relationship or for our children, honestly, even just for our children as they developmentally grow? What does us creating that space help them with?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Well, I think it helps with really everything that we've already talked about. We we've got the brain development side, we've got that relationship side that is so important, like when we're talking about attachment and anxiety and stuff like that, like forming that that concrete base for your relationship to stand on, I think is really what a lot of this comes back to, so that the kids don't, you know, develop anxious attachment styles, fear of abandonment, stuff like that. Um, it can really strengthen that that base. Um, and then you've got like processing, right? Like that's where kids are processing. And when kids don't process because they don't have the verbal skills that we do, it's gonna come out behaviorally. So really you should see some reduction in if there's behaviors that aren't uh age appropriate, if there's externalizing behaviors, lots of anger, like play and play within a trusted adult, yeah, will really allow for some internal processing to happen so that it's not coming out so uh so visibly, so physically.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah. And I think that you know, all of the things that it teaches developmentally to kids, and when an adult can join in their space, they learn that that adult is actually kind of enjoyable to be around. And as your children get older, that's something you fundamentally want your children to really integrate. Is that like, even though these are my parents, they're actually kind of nice to be around. I kind of enjoy being around.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Well, and on the on the flip side of that, when a parent is taking true joy in their child, those mirror neurons are firing, right? So the child is seeing the adult have this reaction of joy and love. That's telling the kid intrinsically, like, you give me joy, you are good, you are fun. And so, really, a lot of identity building gets built within play as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah. So, all of that to say there truly is some science and theory behind play therapy, right? Yes. Even though we get to play for a living, there actually is something that's going on there. So, well, anything else you feel like would be important to talk about in terms of play and attachment or I think going back to what you we were talking about with humor, right?

Playful Transitions In Daily Life

SPEAKER_01 25:56

The way that laughter lowers cortisol, it's also really good for transitions when you've got to like, I don't know, get out of the house, right? Yeah sometimes you can throw in a little bit of humor, and what it does is like it it bypasses your defense system. Adults too, yeah. Where it's like, hey, I bet you can't beat me to the door, I bet you can't beat me to put our shoes on. It kind of bypasses that defense system of like, well, I don't want to put my shoes on. Right? Yeah. So that's also a really good way to incorporate play in transitions in little ways throughout your day. Play might not always look like 30 minutes carved out every single day. That might not be realistic for every family, but you can incorporate playful transitions and playful rituals in the morning, on your way to school, before bedtime, anything like that, but those transitions can really help.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Which is a big thing, especially for that ego development stage where everything feels like a demand and they're really seeking that like autonomy and agency. So you can do a lot more play just in like the everyday, you know, expectations of getting shoes on or getting in the car or whatever, you know. And so that might be a great first step for parents who are looking to try and be more in play with their children. And yeah, I bet they will find it's a lot more successful than the demand or the directive. Yes. Um, at least we've definitely found, and theor theory proves it. So well, thank you so much. Anything else you can think of you want to share with our listeners or viewers?

SPEAKER_01 27:22

No, just go play at whatever age you are. Yeah. If you are a parent, if you are not a parent, whoever you are, if you were a seven-year-old listen to this, listen to this. Don't know good for you. But like play and watch how like kids are such experts in play. Get in touch with that inner child within yourself and like let your inner child touch your touch your child in like a really cool way. So just the fun play.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Don't take Lexa seriously.

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_02 27:48

No, seriously, for real. There's enough of that. Find some time for just the play. Absolutely. So, well, thank you so much for coming on today. We just love our conversations that we have with you. We're gonna link one of her past conversations that actually, you know, is a really totally different subject, is actually about you know different generational relationships, but kind of plays into the to similar cues there. So Elena. Uh so we're gonna link that to this video so you can watch that as well. And as always, we appreciate Lauren, her perspective, and the humor and fun that she brings to all of our conversations. So we appreciate you listening. Please like, subscribe, follow, comment. We would love to get ourselves boosted and are in the platform. So we appreciate all of your uh attention to us. And we will see you guys next time. Thanks for joining. Thank you. Bye bye.