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Maximizing Results When Website Traffic Falls: Expert Insights with Trevor Levine

• MatthewBertram.com

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Conversion expert Trevor Levine reveals essential strategies for maximizing results in an era where website traffic has dropped by an average of 58.5% due to AI overviews in search. As the selection process now happens off-page, businesses must be laser-focused on converting the visitors who do reach their sites.

• Starting with pain points and amplifying the emotional impact of customer problems
• Using video sales letters for higher-ticket items to prevent price-shopping before value is established
• Creating clear differentiation between your solution and competitors' offerings
• Developing testimonials that showcase before-and-after transformation stories
• Building bold guarantees that reverse risk and increase buyer confidence
• Optimizing checkout pages by reinforcing trust elements from your sales page
• Avoiding the common mistakes that hurt conversion rates
• Creating urgency through natural consequences rather than artificial scarcity

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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business. 

Topics covered include keyword research, content optimization, link building, local SEO, and more. The show also features interviews with industry leaders and experts who share their experiences and tips. 

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Speaker 1:

This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing, your insider guide to the strategies top marketers use to crush the competition. Ready to unlock your business full potential, let's get started.

Speaker 2:

Howdy. Welcome back to another fun-filled episode of the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. I am your host, Matt Bertram, so today I think it would be great to bring in a guest that specializes in conversions because, as we know, what's going on with Google all that traffic has just kind of left the site and now you're optimizing off page and when you get somebody to your website today, you absolutely 100% need to be laser focused on conversions. So I wanted to bring in a longtime expert. Trevor Levin from Marketing Experts has been in the game a long time. He's helped REMAX agents drive weekend sales. He's really good at high ticket funnels, long form sales letters. He's worked with some of the top brands like Aweber and MyPoints to build squeeze pages, really leverage testimonials, how to get you those conversions. So I think that welcome to the show, Char.

Speaker 3:

Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

I'm excited for you to be here because I think what you do is so critical today with everything that's going on. A lot of the previous podcasts have been about LLMs and how to rank, and what we're seeing in the data on average is traffic with AI overviews has dropped 58.5% on average. Okay, so I'm sure that there's a range for different industries. We've seen all kinds of drops from different news sources and really high authority blog sites, where information that you would usually discover on a page is now being discovered in the search bar or in the kind of AI mode or the LLMs.

Speaker 2:

And so the selection process is happening off page and so only about half the traffic's coming to the website and if only half the traffic's coming to the website and they're very transactional looking to buy you got to be laser focused on making the most out of that customer and converting that customer, and that's why I wanted to bring you on. Marketingsecretscom has been around for forever and I wanted you to kind of help paint the picture for people on what to think about, because it's time to reset, get back to the basics and really focus on conversion, because there's been a lot of other things going on. If you're talking about the website or you're running ads, you got to be laser focused and focus on conversions, and that's why I brought you on and that's why I'm so excited for you to be here.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, man, and that's why I brought you on and that's why I'm so excited for you to be here. Thanks, man. So are some of your listeners running paid ads, or are they mostly all doing search engine optimization?

Speaker 2:

I would say that there's a big mix. So a lot of search engine marketing is really like the focus of what we do and what I talk about. I've started to talk a lot more about automation and social media because I'm seeing social media actually start to fit into the information architecture of how the LMs find content online. But primarily for 12 years we've been talking about SEO and then leveraging SEO through paid ads and then certainly there's opportunities of paid ads in a search marketing setting. But, right, there's been a fan out of search and also on the paid ads.

Speaker 2:

I believe in the 7-11-4 framework, where seven hours of content consumption of your brand, seeing your ad 11 times or your logo 11 times on multiple channels and SEO is just one of those channels, and so you need to be collecting, providing exposure and fishing in all these different ponds and also you need to have that multi-touch attribution to bring in there. So that's kind of the framework in which we involve. So we're kind of dabbling in everything digital marketing or internet marketing with a core basis on SEO. But I think paid absolutely has a place and it can accelerate the machine learning or the knowledge of getting the right people there and so once they get there, when they jump off to that point.

Speaker 2:

Now, coming to your website, I'm seeing it even with our site. The number one search for our site today which hasn't always been the case is our name, so our brand. So all that research is being done before they get to our site and now when they get there, you know they've all, they already are pre pre-framed to think whatever they're thinking and are looking for something in particular, you know. Are they going to take action? Are they going to convert? Are they not?

Speaker 3:

So for me to help your listeners the best, I want to ask you a question the pages that they're mostly driving traffic to, are they content pages, or are they pages making an offer for something that's for sale, or making an offer to get on a phone call or Zoom call?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I would tell you that I've seen with a lot of at least our clients that come to us are typically running paid ads to like a service page or just a branded page which immediately say, hey, you should run this to a service page, or just a branded page which immediately say, hey, you should run this to a landing page or a squeeze page. I would love to get your opinion on, like a VSL sales letter of like a downloadable, uh, versus like setting up a call. Um, what's the difference? Like right, cause you got mid funnel, you got like here's the big ask Are you putting both of those on one page or should you run an offer to just a downloadable and then another offer right, like a retargeting offer to to scheduling?

Speaker 2:

So I would love to see what is like for the ideal state or the frameworks that you've seen work the best historically, like across all industries, because we have a lot of different listeners and web developers. Like I can't tell you specifically what everybody's doing, but I can tell you historically what I've seen and in the conversations I've had. There are definitely some best practices or things that people commonly do that we try to maybe tweak that a little bit from what they're currently doing because they're typically coming to us, or when people are submitting questions is they're trying to solve a problem because something's not working.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, for sure, okay. So let me jump in here Cause, as you've been explaining, I've been having wanting to share what I know.

Speaker 3:

Awesome wanting to share what I know Awesome. So, first of all, there's content, like, if you're running, if you're doing SEO and you're using long tail keyword phrases to get somebody to a page, that might be mostly a content page, right, because you want to teach them something about the topic that you specialize in or whatever. What I specialize in just to be clear, so we can focus this is on pages that either sell something or pages that invite people to take an action, like joining an email list or booking a call or booking a meeting. So what I want to do is focus on what I'm an expert on, which is the conversion page. It could be a video sales letter, it could be a long form sales page, it could just be a squeeze page.

Speaker 3:

I recently helped a client improve the results for a summit. So the first part was a squeeze page, right, to just get people to generate, uh, to join for free. And the second, thank you page, was where we offered the $67 package, right, with recordings and transcripts and all that stuff. Um, you asked a minute ago what have I found to be most effective, like in terms of booking a call, versus videos or downloads? Is that what you want?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like I think, like the big buckets that I would put in and you can definitely specialize and provide clarity for me, because I'm not the expert in this and that's why you're here is I look at it like take an action, like book a call, and then middle of the funnel is something of value, a downloadable or a widget or you know some kind of free gift or something like that as middle of the funnel.

Speaker 2:

And so you know, typically when we're setting up campaigns, we're maybe running them to. If we're running it to a blog, there might be a uh, a downloadable on the blog, um, or there might be that mid, mid page and then bottom of the page, book a call, like let's try to get their information and then let's go for the, you know, let's go for the full win, um and and get them to book a call with with this uh, content or asset. I think that we built a number and I have specialists on my team that help people grow, consulting businesses or different kind of e-commerce info products, where the funnel is a little bit different. Right, if you're selling a course or something like that, how would you break it up into like those buckets, and then maybe give like the basic layout of each, and then people can frame up for them where they fit and then what they should be doing.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So there's no one size fits all. It depends on your price point, it depends on your type of service. Now, if you're a coach, consultant, something like that, and you have a high ticket offer, then it makes sense to get people on a call or a Zoom meeting right large quantities, like, let's say, you have a book for $17 and you're selling hundreds of thousands every week or every month, then you don't want to make the sale on the website so a lot of it has to do with the price point.

Speaker 3:

Let me start with, perhaps, the video sales letter. The reason video sales letters became popular in certain industries is that it's impossible for the person viewing it to scroll down the page and quickly see the price. Okay, so that's and that's an important principle. It's really important that you do not provide a link to your checkout page or reveal the price too early in the sales process. Unless it's $17, $47, then it's not a big deal. But if it's more than that, you want to make sure you really establish the value, you overcome the objections, you explain why your offer is, or what you're offering is more valuable, why it's better and different than all of the competitors and why it's the best solution, and what is the cost or consequence of choosing the wrong solution or not choosing a solution at all. All that has to be done before you reveal the price.

Speaker 3:

So video sales letters are great If you have a higher ticket product $1,000, $2,000, because people cannot find out what the price is. They can't immediately disqualify it and say, oh, that's too expensive. They have to go through the whole sales pitch or presentation, so to speak, and hear the answers to their objections, hear why your offering is different and better than your competitors, et cetera. But if you have a lower price thing, then you could just do a sales page that offers something for $17, $47, maybe even $97. And with a video on it embedded. But the sales letter doing most of the work. Tell me where you want to go from here.

Speaker 2:

So my business partner sells, like, healthcare supplements. Okay, and I'm not going to go, well, I'm not going to go into too much detail. I'm going to go into some detail, but he like we. So we started building this brand and started selling supplements online, which is, you know, reoccurring I wouldn't say it's a high ticket item, but it's, you know, buildingoccurring, um, I wouldn't say it's a high ticket item, uh, but it's, you know, building a lifestyle coaching, uh, health kind of like, uh, consumable. And we did a summit Actually, we just did a summit, um, and we're about to do another one that was absolutely like gangbusters.

Speaker 2:

Uh he, he uh started a podcast. Um, uh has a book out, book out with the co-host that has some clout. So he's making some inroads and he's been going to a lot of affiliate conferences and what his focus is is to build a funnel that works right. And he's been working on this for a while and he's got he's got some good funnels. But the thing that shocked me and this is this is I don't know exactly where his business at today and we we don't always talk about what's going on with that, but he was telling me as he started going to the affiliate conferences, which they're always selling items, that a break-even funnel is actually tough to build and typically you're trying to just break even on the spend and then you make your money upselling, like the big ticket items that kind of move you over the top. Now he doesn't have a big ticket item, so he's selling reoccurring right? He's selling the supplements, so it doesn't have a big ticket item, so he's selling reoccurring right, he's selling the supplements. So it was a little bit of a challenge for him to build a a profitable funnel at a product under a hundred bucks like uh, based on, like the fluctuation in price and stuff like that, um, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I think that there's a lot of people out there I I kind of would have put it into a bucket of saying, if you're not selling something like that's 500 bucks or more, running ads is pretty difficult because you need to have. And so I said, like bundle it right, like bundle it or gift card, or like him and hers, like there's different ways to do it. I don't know what even the fundamental principles would be like as an, as an expert of. Okay, if someone wants to build a funnel, what are the questions that they should be asking themselves? Cause I can only imagine people are finding this podcast and, from what I have heard from Chris, they've been building a funnel or working on a funnel for a long time and that funnel, that funnel, is just not working the way they want it to. Like everybody's, like digital marketing is going to make you a millionaire and you know, I've been working on this funnel forever Right.

Speaker 3:

Let me say a few things about that. So, um, we're we're touching on a few points. First of all, yeah, bundling inviting people to get a better deal for two or three or whatever higher quantity is a good technique, and we can talk about little techniques that can help, like, for example, a two-step checkout page. You know, you invite the person to just enter their name and email to start before they go to the page that asks for the credit card, and that way, if they abandon the checkout page, well, we can talk about how to improve conversion on the checkout page in a moment. But if they abandon, you've got their email and you can send them the follow-up series. But let's take a step back. This idea of bundling or having a two-step checkout page. These are little techniques that can help.

Speaker 3:

But before we get to that, we have to convince the reader that the supplement that's being offered is better and different than anything else that would potentially solve your problem. So let's just say the supplement is to help with joint pain. Okay, well, how can people solve? What are the different solutions for solving joint pain? There's supplements. What are the different solutions for solving joint pain? There's supplements. There's pharmaceuticals. There might be meal plans or dietary changes, there might be some movement or exercise routine right, there's a lot of different ways that people could potentially solve joint pain. So before you worry about trying to sell them a three or one, you have to convince them that this is the. This is the best solution.

Speaker 3:

And that's and that's what I specialize in. So, um, you can use this is one thing that you can use AI for. You can go into AI and says why, why are supplements better? Or what are the advantages of nutritional supplements for joint pain versus pharmaceuticals, exercise routines, dietary changes, et cetera? Right, Physical therapy, whatever the others might be, and it'll tell you the general advantages of supplements. But what it doesn't know is what is different and better about your supplement versus all the other supplements. Now, to differentiate your supplement from your competitors within that category of solution, right, ai can't answer that. That's what I work on clients with is developing their unique selling proposition, helping make really clear to the reader or the viewer what are the consequences and costs of choosing the wrong solution, which means any other solution that what you're offering, right, why is this different? Why is this better? What are the results people are getting?

Speaker 3:

A lot of people have kind of lukewarm testimonials that say A lot of people have kind of lukewarm testimonials that say I really liked this supplement. You know it came on time and you know it lasted 60 days and I think it's higher quality than what I used before. But they don't describe before and after results. And when you don't have testimonies with before and after results, the reader is not going to be as convinced.

Speaker 3:

So that's one of the things that I help with is having conversations with your customers or clients so we can collaborate on really great testimonials. So I would ask questions or you could potentially email them some questions if you want to do it that way. So I would ask questions or you could potentially email them some questions if you want to do it that way, and, based on the questions, form a testimonial, send it back to the customer for their approval, or, of course, they're free to edit it if they want to change anything, and then what we get back covers all the bases and winds up being a really wow testimonial that's going to make people feel compelled to buy this product. So those are some of the ways, some of the things that we have to do before we get to bundling or a two-step checkout page or whatever.

Speaker 2:

What about going even further? And let's talk about the ad. If you're running an ad, is that the main recommendation of how people are getting people to a squeeze page is through some type of ads. Is that what you've seen?

Speaker 3:

I mean you could do it through affiliates. You can do it through ads. You can do it organically, which might mean that you're blogging or, in your case, podcasting, or doing SEO. I mean, there's all kinds of ways to do it. And that brings me back to something you said that it's really hard to break even on a funnel. Well, that's true if you're using paid advertising, but if you're using affiliates, that doesn't have to be a problem, right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there's no cost, or if you're doing, organic and you're ranking high for your blog posts. That doesn't have to be a problem, right? So obviously, if you're doing a blog, those types of articles, then you can have a column on the page with call to action boxes, right, that invite people to get a free thing or invite people to click through and solve their problem all the way right. Or somewhere a few places within the article you can say you know, if you'd like to know about how we're breaking ground in solving this problem without the usual hassles, headaches, you know, or inconveniences, whatever it might be, click here, like if it's losing weight, well, what's the usual hassle, headache or inconvenience? It's having to forego foods that you like or having to exercise, which takes time. So if your offer is get the benefit without the inconvenience that you would expect, of course they're going to click through to see your sales page. Of course they're going to click through to see your sales page.

Speaker 2:

So I think we're talking about like well, the unique selling proposition builds on that, but the ad should just be asking the question that's already going on in people's heads. That is like for AI. I feel like, for AI, most people are going I'm afraid it's going to replace my job. That's what I feel like most people are going. I'm afraid it's going to replace my job, like that's what I feel like most people are thinking. So if someone was, you know, selling something related to AI, I would think that if you were running an ad or uh, doing a blog or talking on a podcast or whatever, if you titled it with the headline in some ways, uh, which I actually, so I wonder if this worked. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I had a post that didn't do too well on social media, like I can usually tell in the first hour, and so I I changed the title and I changed it to that and I said you know, are you worried about AI taking your job? I think it's probably going to get more engagement, cause I think that that's, when I talk to people, what I hear in people's heads. So I'm just trying to like project that on any kind of service. What's that one question that they're asking, or the frustration that they're having, like when you think about crafting a call to action to get them to the squeeze page. So like before the squeeze page, like what should, what should be the components in that messaging of that ad? I guess that's my question.

Speaker 3:

Okay, for for the kinds of clients that I help generally, we're selling something. So one of the components that you can, that you can flesh out in the offer, which I help with and then and then use to make your ad more effective is the guarantee.

Speaker 3:

So we don't just want to offer money back because you know that's what people expect anyway and it's not competitive. You want to look for something bold, right, like you can send the empty container back after you use the thing, with a photo showing us you know that you used it and and you can still get a refund, or you can keep all the bonuses. You know, even if, even if the thing you don't like the product.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah so either way, that's a guaranteed gain, right, that's what we want is is, whether they ask for a refund or not, there's a guaranteed gain. Now some some marketers think well, I don't want to offer something too bold like double your money back right, or something along those lines, because they're afraid that they might lose money, but you can do that and tie it to a conditional guarantee to protect yourself. So what that means is, for example, let's say that you have a coaching program. Are some of your listeners coaches or consultants?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, or you're a consultant Could be either Okay, and you have eight sessions with the client and you're promising a certain outcome.

Speaker 3:

So, for example, let's say you're a relationship coach and you're promising, but by the end of eight weeks, um, people they date will treat them with respect. Or you're promising, but by the end of six months they will be in a loving relationship. That's a pretty bold guarantee, but you can tie it to a condition. The condition is they have to submit homework by midnight every Monday, every week, until the program is over, and they also have to. You could have other things. They have to go on a date every week? Right, they have to. You can come up with your list of criteria. If you're selling something that helps them make money, then the condition could be that they're spending a certain amount that they document to you right On ads or whatever it might be, so that, you right, they have to meet the condition to qualify for the guarantee, and that helps protect you, but it also helps to really wow your listeners, your viewers, your readers, your visitors, because you can put it in your headline.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

You'll be in a loving relationship in six months or you don't pay. That's pretty compelling.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Right, or yeah. So then what you can do is you can take it to your paid ad, which is shorter, and you can make that the headline or one of the components in your ad. Do you want to be in a loving relationship within six months? You will be. Or you won't pay, or it's or cost nothing. Now you can put it in the ad and you don't have to explain the conditions in the ad. Right, You're using it to get people to come over to your sales page or video sales letter, and that's where you know, when you get to the guarantee, you can explain the conditions.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So, trevor, what I'm hearing is the two major components you need for your offer of getting them to the squeeze page is a, a, a wow kind of over the top offer that's going to grab their attention. You want to have guarantees to make sure that they're doing all the things that would, uh, give them a high likelihood of having yes. And then, um, you know, and the other one you were talking about with the landing page, specifically like the transformational before and after, but on the ad you were saying there was the. Was it the unique selling proposition or is it really the offer that, or they leave, they're going to leave with something better than they have, but that could be pulled through the whole thing like if, oh, yeah I mean you can get.

Speaker 3:

You can get to that in the sales page yeah, yeah, the video sales letter is that?

Speaker 3:

is that, no matter what they decide, there's a guaranteed gain, like they keep all the bonuses, or they keep everything they already downloaded right, or you know you can come up with with what it's going to be. Um, hang on. I had a thought related to what we're just talking about, about the guarantee. There's another thing. Let's say you're selling a high ticket, something right, and you have a bold guarantee, like you know you will. We guarantee that you'll be grossing $10,000 a month, $20,000 a month, whatever it might be right, by the end of this program.

Speaker 3:

Well, you can have criteria to qualify prospective clients, to see if they qualify for that guarantee. So you can ask them well, how much are you spending on paid advertising? If they're spending less than X dollars, they don't qualify for the guarantee and you can downsell to a different guarantee. You can say, okay, well, you know that guarantee is for people that are spending X dollars per month on advertising. Since you're not, you know we can still work with you and here's what we will guarantee. And then you can downsell to something that's less bold. But meanwhile you got them from the ad to your page, to the call, because it's a bold guarantee.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, so I just I, I'm in my head, I'm going, okay, add, and then we'll talk about the funnel next. And, and just to kind of finish up on on the ad, what I'm hearing is you need to make that bold guarantee to be something that's going to stop the scroll or whatever to get them to be like, wow, I need to pay attention to this and it it really impresses them because it solves their problem with that guaranteed gain. Is there any other kind of autonomy? Or like a structure autonomy, yeah, like, is there anything else that needs to be in the ad or the offer of bringing them into the squeeze page? Is there anything that you need to put out there in that besides the bold? After that you would say would be like structure wise, that you really need to focus on. And then I would love to talk about optimizing the landing page next.

Speaker 3:

Sure, sure. So, to be honest, people hire me mostly to optimize conversion on their landing pages, sales pages, video, sales letters, although I do ads as well. I have a much longer track record of doing the landing pages and sales pages, so I can give you some things that have worked. But I also want to be transparent that my main expertise is on converting them once they hit your page.

Speaker 2:

All right, well, tell me that, and then let's get to what you've done that ton of, because I know there's some real art to long form sales letters.

Speaker 3:

Let me also, just while we're on the topic of making bold guarantees, if you come to my website, marketingexpertscom, it says right in the headline that we'll beat your conversion rate or you don't pay. So that's a good example of making a bold guarantee. But the client has to qualify right. So if they don't have split testing software, if they don't meet certain other obvious qualifications, then they're not qualified for that guarantee.

Speaker 2:

I just wanted to let everybody know marketing secrets. If you didn't catch the beginning marketingsecretscom, I have it pulled up right here. Absolutely, he's got that guarantee right at the top and you know it works if he's doing it so great. Yeah, so I just wanted to highlight that. Yeah, so, just on the offer or ad before they get to the page I know we're really focused on maybe a headline. Is there anything else besides that bold offer that need to be included? And then let's talk about the landing page.

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of components to a good sales page. I mean, obviously you want to have a compelling headline, you want to have. So, let's see, you want to start off by talking to the person about the problem that brought them here, ok, and agitate the pains and you want to amplify how it's, what it's costing them. What are the costs, what are the pains, what are the problems? And then what are the? What's the domino effect? So let's say, for example, you're talking about joint pain, you know.

Speaker 3:

You can obviously start by saying you know, isn't it frustrating to walk through your day? You know, feeling pain in your elbows or knees, hips, whatever. But then you want to take it further. Well, what are the consequences of living with that beyond just having pain in your body? Are you frustrated because when you go to visit your grandkids, you're confined to a chair and you can't sit on the floor and play with them like you used to See. That would be an example. You used to see that would be an example. Um, or you know, you can come up with a list of other things but you want to talk about how is it impacting their life in other ways? How is it making them feel disconnected from their family, right? How is it limiting their freedom? Maybe they can't go for a walk or go for a hike or go for a bike ride, and so you know you want to talk with them about not only the obvious pain or problem, but also the ripple effect that's happening and really amplify that. That's the first step.

Speaker 2:

That's the first step, like really just dig in on the problem that they're feeling, that they're struggling with and and really kind of address that and blow that up.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Or if you're selling to women who don't feel respected in their relationships, you can talk about do you feel frustrated or do you feel conflicted about staying with your partner when you're not respected because you worry that you might not find someone better?

Speaker 3:

and it's and it's usually this way, and the next, the next guy might just treat you the same, and yet you know you deserve better and and you know it's it just breaks your heart and and you lie awake at night when you're not getting your needs met. So you know you want to amplify the problem. And then you know, depending on if you're selling, let's say, particularly to middle-aged women, you could add you know you're not getting any younger and what's going to happen if you stay with the man you're with now for another year, three years, five years, right, and you finally reach a breaking point down the road five years from now. Is that really going to be better than learning to command love and respect right now?

Speaker 2:

You just really twist it and get them to visualize it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and talk about how they're losing sleep at night, how their heart is in pain, how they feel hurt and taken for granted. So we really want to elaborate and amplify all the pains and problems.

Speaker 2:

Elaborate and amplify all the pains and problems. My question to you with that is if you're selling like a service, like a service-based business or something like that, how does that translate right? So if you're not selling a product that has an outcome, but you're selling like a service, I don't know like, just think of any service that you have in your head that you want to share. That this could be applied easily to what would that look like if you're selling a service or even like let's talk B2B. Right, you're selling something where maybe you're speaking to a business owner, but maybe you're speaking to a decision maker a business owner, but maybe you're speaking to a decision maker. Do you want to, on a professional website, talk about all those insecurities on the page? Does that make sense?

Speaker 3:

Well, okay, so to talk about B2B, one of my projects was for a Remax agent and he decided he was going to do a three-day superstar what do you call it? Superstar agent boot camp.

Speaker 2:

Cool.

Speaker 3:

Right where he's going to teach people how he's selling. Like you know, 100 homes a month Maybe it wasn't quite that much, it was a lot of homes and he had a whole system. He had a whole team right who was he was delegating stuff to and all kinds of paid advertising, so he had tons of leads coming in and referrals anyhow. So he he hired me to create a magalog which is like it's a direct mail piece, it's like a sales page, but it looks more like a. I'm sorry it's like a long sales letter, but it looks more like a. I'm sorry it's like a long sales letter, but it looks more like a magazine, right, because there's so many images and sideboards and things like that. And the bootcamp was $2,000.

Speaker 3:

And, yeah, we absolutely talked to the reader. I mean, of course, real estate agents aren't like a CEO of a big company, but they are small business owners and we talk to them. You know about the frustration of, you know, taking calls morning, noon and midnight right, even on weekends, right, when they're constantly being distracted from family events and kids baseball games or plays. Right, because they feel the need, they feel the desperation and the need to always be on call and they don't have a team helping them, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, here too, we're not just talking about make more money selling more homes. We're talking about the impact on their family life.

Speaker 2:

Okay, yeah, no, no, I see, I see that translated. So okay, so let's go to the next step. So you've agitated them, and then what do you want to hit them with next?

Speaker 3:

Okay, I feel maybe it's my ego, but I want to mention that when he mailed that magalog within two days he sold out the bootcamp and grossed $250,000. So I'm pretty proud of that and he repeated that obviously each time he did the bootcamp and grows $250,000. Uh, so I'm pretty proud of that and he repeated that obviously each time he did the bootcamp.

Speaker 2:

That's a great case study. Yeah, um, uh, you got and if you go to marketingexpertscom you can see it uh, the case study right there on the homepage. So pretty fun, phenomenal results. So thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure. Um, I'm sorry, what was your last question?

Speaker 2:

Oh, just well yeah, what comes after you? You've agitated the pain. Now what do you do next?

Speaker 3:

Okay, so. So next to you you talk, then you can introduce your solution, and now you've got to explain why it's different and better than any other solution they might be considering. So you know, give me a, give me an example. Do you want to talk about a supplement?

Speaker 2:

We can. We can talk about like I, I think, like anything. Anything you want to talk about, tell me.

Speaker 3:

Right. So let's say, let's do this. I used to take turmeric supplements and I actually, when I I built a company, I built an online school that was in the health field and then subsequently sold it. But we were a joint venture partner with a company that sold turmeric supplements. We, you know, we were an affiliate for them and vice versa. So, um, I have a little experience, you know, promoting this.

Speaker 3:

There are a lot of turmeric supplements on the market, right, and usually people buy them because they have pain. So why should they if they have pain? First of all, you have to show them why is turmeric better than all the other ways that they could address their pain? Why is it better than ibuprofen? Why is it better than cold packs, right? Why is it better than cold packs, right? Why is it better than other pharmaceuticals? Once you do that, which AI can help you with, then you've got to explain, well, why is your turmeric supplement different and better than all the others, and what are the costs and consequences of choosing a different one that doesn't do what yours does? So you know. Now you've got to explain what's so unique about it, why you know. What do you do? Do you? Is it liposomal. Does it have a higher potency, you know? And if so, how? How did you make that possible?

Speaker 2:

So one of the things you said was the, the uh, if they choose the other supplement, like, and not theirs, you need to highlight what they're missing. Could you go into a little bit more detail there? That's interesting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, actually, I'm working on a project right now where I'm doing that. It's for an air filter, and so this air filter not only has a well, it's better than HEPA filter, which is what most people sell, because it it captures particles up to 100 times smaller than a regular HEPA filter. So that includes viruses, bacteria, smoke from wildfires, vocs, which are volatile organic compounds, and actually I misspoke right there. The reason it captures VOCs is it also has a layer of carbon, and so the carbon captures the vocs.

Speaker 3:

Now what we say to differentiate it is is and this is true is that most of the air filters on the market claim to have a carbon filter, but when you go in there, it's just like a piece of fabric where they sprayed some carbon. It it's like super thin and also a lot of them. The actual filter that's inside the unit has gaps around the edges, so some of the air that's being sucked in doesn't go through the filter. It goes through the edges and isn't really getting filtered. And they're also just the standard HEPA design, which, which is good it captures particles down to a certain degree.

Speaker 2:

So you're calling these out, you're basically calling out all these like deficiencies, essentially in the competition. So you're maybe not naming them by name, but you're certainly pointing out here's some of the issues with the other stuff on the market and this is why mine's better out.

Speaker 3:

Here's some of the issues with the other stuff on the market, and this is why mine's better. Yeah, I mean, you could be. You could be vulnerable if you buy. If you buy a different one, you you are vulnerable to volatile organic compounds. You're vulnerable to off-gassing from new construction homes or even furniture or your bed that you're sleeping in. You're vulnerable to viruses and bacterias and pollution coming from major roads or highways within a mile of your house.

Speaker 3:

And the reason is because they don't have the things that this filter has. They don't have the filter that removes particles up to 100 times smaller. They don't have the thick carbon filter. They don't have the interior filter with no gaps around it, right, and so we're talking to them about the costs and consequences of choosing a different air filter. And then, to make it even better, we have some testimonials from people who said I noticed a difference within 24 hours, or I noticed a difference within three days. I was able to breathe better than I ever did with my previous air filter, so that really gets the point across agitating it.

Speaker 2:

then you're, you're, you're talking about your unique selling profit, your unique selling proposition. And then, um, maybe, uh, the guarantee or what, what they're missing that if they go with somebody else, like what they're what, what they could be at risk for. And then, and the next, I guess, is testimonials, right, so you're, you're blanketing really high quality testimonials, which you alluded to at the beginning of the pod, about you know, they, they really need to say the transformation, the before and after what they did. They need to be more descriptive about the, the type of review, and maybe about the, the product or service in specifics, versus like generalities or like a general like. I think people use like customer service as as like a default or a go-to, and they're like we have good customer service and it's like what does that mean? If someone gives you a testimony for good coverage of service, what does that actually mean to? You know, it means so many different things. That's not the main draw.

Speaker 3:

The main draw is solving the problem.

Speaker 3:

So you've got to have testimonials that describe before and after results, showing the problem got solved. Now one of the next steps is to develop your offer. So there's a big difference between just describing what you sell and having an offer. Describing what you sell doesn't create any urgency, so they can read it all and then say, okay, I'll think about it, I'll see what else is on the market, maybe I'll come back. There's a variety of ways that you can create an offer, depending on what you're selling, but here are some that we've used successfully. You can say that normally, let's say, you've got a course or a high ticket program that costs a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, but you're going to pull out some nugget, some excerpt from that that's valuable and allow people to buy it for a low price, like as a tripwire. You familiar with that phrase.

Speaker 2:

I am Yep.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so the offer is, you know, for a limited time, normally you would have to join our you coaching program or our whatever you know, whatever program uh to get thousands of dollars to get this particular thing, or you would have to sign up for our course, right, and pay a monthly fee for a year, whatever it might be, but for a limited time.

Speaker 3:

We've pulled out this particular thing that our customers love and gives them this result, and and we're letting you have it for $7 or $19 or whatever. When I built my company, we use that technique successfully, and I think I worked with Ryan Dice personally to develop this tripwire offer. We had a course that cost about $200 for the you know basic version or 500 for the certificate version with 50 lessons, and so what we did is we pulled out one of the lessons on omega-3s. Our customers were mostly vegans or vegetarians, and so they wanted to make sure that they would thrive and not have disease, but also not have deficiencies, and one of the things that can be harder to get on a plant-based diet is EPA and DHA, which are types of omega-3s.

Speaker 2:

So Ryan Dice had another course outside of digital marketing. Is that kind of? We pivoted a little bit.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah, Ryan Dice had a lot of offerings. I went to a bunch of his conferences and then at one he offered to work with you personally on a tripwire right where he met with you like three times, and then there's also a video course that you you watch through to get ideas for your tripwire and then you know, but he, he worked with me on the offer cool that was. That was within digital marker, that was not separate.

Speaker 2:

Okay okay, yeah, yeah, um, so, anyhow. So what we did is we took this out.

Speaker 3:

We offered it for seven dollars. That was within digital marker. That was not separate. Okay, okay, yeah, so, anyhow. So what we did is we took this out. We offered it for $7. We had a little video sales letter. Oh, and this is a good technique If you have a squeeze page where you're offering something for free, then the thank you page is your opportunity to offer something paid, right. Don't squander that opportunity. That's what we did. We had our affiliates drive traffic to a squeeze page and then on the, let me think how we did this, okay. So the squeeze page said find out why you may be deficient in EPA and DHA on a plant-based diet and what the solution is. So that was the free offer. So they opted. In Next page, they saw a video. The first approximately 10 minutes of the video maybe five to 10 minutes. I sold the company in 2017. But the first half of the video was just informative and educational and had value.

Speaker 3:

Right video was just informative and educational and had value right, explaining to them that a lot of packaged foods, processed foods and restaurants foods are high in omega-6s, and that makes it hard for their body to turn the omega-3s that they're getting, which are called ALA, into EPA and DHA, and so it kind of left them with hey, if, if this was helpful to you and you want to just stop eating restaurant foods and packaged foods, great, you know, you're good to go and you know, if you want to know, if you want to know easier ways to solve the problem, you know, keep listening, keep watching.

Speaker 3:

And then that's when we offered them the $7 excerpt from our course and we let them know that normally you'd have to pay about $200 or sign up for monthly fees to get this, but we're pulling it out for a limited time, letting you have it for $7. And 9.1% of the people that opted in bought the $7 thing, and of course, those that bought the $7 thing were then offered the $200 course right, and those that didn't buy the $200 course right away, we got the opportunity to over-deliver and show them the quality of our course material, and so that increased the percentage of those buyers who then went on to buy the course.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. So I'm on your website right now and looking at the direct response advertising services. Like your clients, like Frank Kern, which I've read through a lot of his content, interesting clients that sell software, insurance courses, nutrition, real estate, big internet marketing, business crisis building, internet marketing courses and membership for all of those that are listening, and long form sales letters on your services. Long form sales letters, vsls, decoy pricing. You want to talk a little bit about decoy pricing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure, we use that again with my online school. So this is where you have three price points and you use one of them to make another one seem like a bargain. Oh wait, yeah, yeah, you know okay. So in our case we had the price points were $19.97 a month for basic, $49.97 a month for gold and $59.97 a month for certificate, and so what we did is we made obviously the difference between $49 and $59 a month. It's not that big.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

But we gave so much more on the $59 a month program than we did on 49. So, for example, the biggest one was that after each of the lessons they could take an open book exam and after passing all the 50 exams they could get a certificate of completion. That would give them some credibility if they wanted to be a cooking class teacher or health coach or something like that. And so, um, hardly anybody bought the gold one because they're they're like, you know, for ten dollars more I could earn a certificate, and there were other perks that we offer with certificate right now. I mean that we offered with certificate back then as well to really make it like twice as valuable for only $10 a month more. So the gold wasn't really there because we cared about anybody buying gold. That was the decoy. It was there so that people could compare the most expensive one and then see, wow, it gets so much more value that this is actually more of a bargain, and this is the one I should do. That's how you use decoy pricing.

Speaker 2:

I like that. I my my brain was actually going to the anchoring of like you need like three different choices, and then everybody kind of highlights the center. One is like uh, this is the most preferred, and maybe you anchor the top price really, really high, which some people will buy it. But it goes. But it's going okay. Well, this is so expensive, I can get this for a pretty good deal. So I was just looking at a, a different way to to anchor it.

Speaker 2:

But I, I like, I like also how you did it, where you kind of create a little bit of a, a cliff for them to to step off to the bigger one. That's, that's really cool, um. So then segmentation, um, you know, that's like your, your, your ICP, like your, your ideal prospect, uh, funnel optimization. So you're looking at like the full funnel from the ads to the tripwires, to the landing page, to the, uh, the, the, the free or the upsell at the end. And I've seen, like uh, I forget who it is, but as I've like seen some really interesting funnels where you got like upsell and then like a downsell and then like an additional downsell, like you can't get out of the funnel.

Speaker 3:

You know if it's all right. You know, and I only shared one of the ways to develop an offer and there's several others I could share. Yeah, let's go through.

Speaker 2:

You know what I only shared one of the ways to develop an offer and there's several others I could share. Yeah, let's go through it.

Speaker 3:

Because nobody's going to make it to your upsells or downsells if they don't buy the main thing. So let's, for a minute, stay focused on converting, maximizing conversion of the main thing, right?

Speaker 2:

I love that yeah.

Speaker 3:

So another way you can do it is say only the next 50 customers will get this special discount or or this special bonus package or we'll get to a free one if you buy two Right. So with a supplement example, you can say, for the next 50 customers you buy to get one free, and have a countdown thing, have some odd number, don't make it 50. Like, we're down to 43. We're down to 31, something like that. So bonuses that are limited as well are good. So you can have digital downloads. You can have a free breakthrough session where they you know this is great for coaches you sell the tripwire for whatever $7, $17, $47. And then as one of the bonuses, you offer a free breakthrough session. And that's your real purpose is to get them on that Zoom meeting or that call right for the breakthrough session, and the product is just a lead generator from your standpoint. For them it's an added value to be able to have a one-on-one call right with an expert. So that's another way to do it. You can have a trade-in offer. So you mentioned larger companies. If they're selling physical products, you can. You know some of the phone companies do this Trade in your old phone from other brands, right and and to buy a samsung and then you know we'll give you 200 off or whatever it might be. You can also widen the gap between the free thing and the paid thing.

Speaker 3:

I just did this for a summit. That's been it's been going for 14 years. So they have a lot of affiliates driving traffic to the squeeze page where people register for free for the summit and then on the thank you page, of course, they offer a $67 package that includes recordings and transcripts and other perks like that. So to improve the offer for the paid thing, I came up with a couple of ideas. They had, like, a community forum that would last only eight days for people that registered for the eight-day summit. And I said, well, why don't you offer 60 days? Like, have a separate forum that's specifically for the people who pay right, the VIPs, that last for 60 days, and that way they feel like they're more important, they're getting more touch right, they're getting special attention and they're getting it for longer.

Speaker 3:

So the client did that. The other thing we did I found out that the client had recorded a lot of video footage of all of the guest experts something like 40 guest experts but they were only using 20% of the video content in the summit itself, because each day there would be a certain amount of video content shared for eight days. But when it was all said and done, you only got to see 20% of all of the video content that was collected, all of the interviews. So we made very explicit on the page asking for $67 that when you pay you don't just get lifetime access to the eight episodes, but you also get the other 80% of the content, the other 80% of the fascinating interviews, the other 80% of the fascinating interviews with the experts. So that made a huge difference in widening the gap between free and paid. So that's another way that you can improve your offer.

Speaker 2:

I love that. Where would you like to go next? I do have a question, but I want to make sure we're following the flow in your head.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, do have a question, but I want to make sure we're following the flow in your head. Yeah, well, one more thing you can do to create urgency without gimmicks or without a time-sensitive offer like a limited bonus package or whatever is. You can talk about the natural consequences of waiting. So let's say that who you're selling to are people that are in the process of writing their first book and they really want to write a book. That's their aspiration, and you know you're selling them some kind of a coaching program, maybe a ghost writing program, something that's going to help them get to the finish line, right? Well, what are the natural consequences of them waiting to have someone like you or your company helping them? You could say imagine someone else beating you to the punch and releasing a book that fills the exact same market niche as you and theirs becomes a bestseller. How will you feel when they steal your chance to become the authority you deserve to be?

Speaker 3:

So you don't have to have a limited time offer for that right. That is a natural potential consequence of waiting. If it's joint pain right, what are the consequences of waiting to solve this problem? You know, if your joint pain just gets worse and worse, you know it could be hard just to put on your socks in the morning. You're going to, you're going to become a burden to your adult children, asking them to come over and help you put your clothes on. So those are some of the natural consequences of of waiting.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that. That's actually a the book idea was something that actually happened to me. Somebody that I knew I guess we were operating on the same wavelength came out with a book that was going to be titled what I was going to title my book. It was pretty wild, so that like totally happens right, yeah.

Speaker 2:

What we're. We're getting a little close to time. I want to keep going. I actually, as I was looking at your services page, I wanted to ask you a quick question. I know we've jumped around a little bit and I appreciate your flexibility. Check out page optimization. I would love for you to kind of speak to conversion rates and check out page optimization and any kind of you know best practices you have around that.

Speaker 3:

Sure I can. Yeah, I've got some easy ones. So the first thing is, assuming you have a sales page that has a link to your checkout page, do not provide that link too early in your sales page. Don't have a headline and then a link that says want it now?

Speaker 3:

Click here and then they go and find out it's $497 and then they abandon because they never read your sales letter. Okay, so make sure that you've really agitated their problems, explain why your offer is different and better and what are the consequences and costs of choosing the wrong solution. Overcome their objections and explain your guarantee and risk reversal before you provide that link to the checkout page. So that's the first thing. Also, don't assume that just because they saw testimonials and read your guarantee and all that stuff on the sales page, that now when they go to the checkout page they're going to remember all that stuff and move forward with the purchase. They need to be reminded and reassured that this is the right decision. So you want to again recap your risk reversal or guarantee. Again, show an image of what they're going to get. So if it's like a course with a bunch of bonuses, you know. Have an image of what that is and put it there on the checkout page.

Speaker 3:

Again, we talked about the risk reversal. Again, put testimonials. You might shorten some of your best testimonials. Or you know, extract like the best part of each one, not shorten it, but you know, extract the most potent part of each testimonial and put them again on the checkout page with the headshots, if you have headshots, that's something we didn't even talk about is how to make your testimonials more effective. So those are some ways that you can increase conversion on the checkout page. Do you want to hear about how to make testimonials better?

Speaker 2:

Let's do it.

Speaker 3:

Is there time? Okay, so the most believable testimony. So, first of all, don't assume that people will believe that your testimonials are real. Some people are skeptical and if they just see a first name and last initial and no headshot, they're going to be like did you make that up? You know how do I know that's real? So the most believable ones are video testimonials and screenshots of reviews that you got on independent sites like Trustpilot or Yelp or perhaps your Facebook page, because you can't edit those right. So they know, and usually they have somebody's name or screen name and perhaps their image next to it. So that's, people know that that is a real review.

Speaker 3:

The challenge with those is that you don't get to interact with those customers and coax them to ask them questions to elicit the best testimonial content, like what was the exact problem you were experiencing beforehand? How is it affecting your life? You know how specifically has our product or service or program helped you and you know what's changed in your life now. So if you do that kind of testimonial, which you know tends to be more convincing, the best would be to have a video testimonial. But if you can't have that, then at least show the person's headshot, provide their full name. And then what also can make it more believable if it's B2C is to just put their city and state. But if it's B2B, then you want to have their title and their company and so you know all those things and obviously a first and last name. So all those things make it more believable.

Speaker 2:

I love that, so I do have a question, as we are getting close to time here. What are five common mistakes that hurt conversion rates?

Speaker 3:

that hurt conversion rates? Sure Okay. So one is relying too much on adjectives instead of verbs. So a lot of times when I see copy or clients come to me with their copy, it'll say this is the most innovative, groundbreaking method on the market or on the planet. Right, and that just sounds like bragging and hyperbole. It doesn't really convince people. So it would be better to focus on verbs instead of adjectives like this Stop wasting time on minutia. Automate 70% of your operations. Spend more quality time with your family instead of at your office. See, each one of those starts with a verb Stop wasting time, automate, spend more time. So that's one.

Speaker 3:

Another one is focusing too much on the process or deliverables that they're going to get. So let's say you have some kind of a program with eight sessions. You don't want to focus too much on the number of sessions and how long they last and the fact that there's a private community or how many pdfs they're going to get. That's not. That's really not that compelling. You do mention it down lower in your sales page, but it's much more compelling to talk about the result. So, for example, earlier I mentioned in the case of a relationship coach, the result might be be valued by people you love, not frustrated, disappointed or taken for granted. You want to be focusing on the results and benefits. Another mistake is to talk too much about I and we. So you know, if you're some kind of a health coach, a mistake would be to lead with. I believe in healing holistically and I have three certifications. Right, that's all about you. That's not the benefit to the person in it for them, and focus on the word you and your.

Speaker 3:

So it could be. Are you tired of living with joint pain? Be free of your pain without expensive drugs or dangerous side effects. So we had the word you and the word you're in there. Another one would be lack of word pictures. So instead of just telling you, know, you'll have less pain, that's telling show, won't it be great to keep gardening, dancing and playing on the floor with your grandkids when you're 80 years old, instead of being confined to a chair? So those are the word pictures. And the last one is not describing the negative ripple effects of inaction or of choosing the wrong solution. So the mistake would be just saying, without this, you could become deficient in vitamin B12. Okay, well, that is a negative effect, but what are the ripple effects. What are the domino effects and that would be? Without this, you could lose your memory or balance, you could fall and break a hip, crippling you for the rest of your life and making you a burden to your adult children.

Speaker 2:

That's good. I like that Well. Thank you for sharing, Trevor. Is there anything else that you wanted to make sure we covered before we get out of here that we didn't cover, and kind of the roundabout way that we worked through it today?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I just want to let your listeners know that they can get a free critique just by coming to our website, marketingexpertscom. I know yours is marketingsecretscom so they're similar, but yeah, if you visit marketingexpertscom, you can ask for a free critique of any copy that you have. There's no obligation, there's no cost. It's just a good way to find out how we can help you. And even if you don't hire us, that's okay. You know, I believe in paying it forward and you can run with the suggestions we make and improve your conversion rates.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. Well, trevor, thank you so much for coming on. It was really insightful. I think a lot of people can take away some actionable steps, so thank you for sharing so much. I encourage everybody to go to marketingexpertscom. Trevor's been around in the industry a long time. He's one of the proven pillars of the digital marketing space. So, trevor, thank you so much for coming on and until the next time, my name is Matt Bertram. Bye-bye for now.

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