Rob and Jason talk about leadership and structure...and funerals.

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson engage in a heartfelt discussion about the challenges faced by pastors and church leaders, particularly during the busy holiday season. They reflect on the recent loss of a mutual friend, Matt Thompson, who was a dedicated and loving figure in their community. This leads to a broader conversation about the importance of genuine relationships in ministry and the need for pastors to embody love and faithfulness in their leadership. They emphasize that while structures and systems in churches are necessary, they should not hinder the mission of loving Jesus and serving others.

The conversation transitions into a critical examination of church structures and leadership dynamics. Jason shares insights from a recent meeting where they discussed the correlation between pastor tenure and church health, highlighting the need for long-term leadership to foster healthy congregations. Rob and Jason explore the balance between accountability and empowerment in church leadership, advocating for a model that supports leaders while ensuring they remain aligned with their mission. They conclude with a call to action for church leaders to seize opportunities for ministry and not wait for the perfect moment to act, emphasizing the urgency of responding to God’s calling in their communities.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We're really excited you're here. We're excited to be here. We we just enjoyed talking, which is probably a good reason to have a podcast. But, know, hey, no, it's been we actually spent Rob the entire day yesterday on a Zoom call to get like six hours. That was a long day. I don't know about you. I mean, I enjoyed it. It was really good. And there was, you know,

Rob Paterson (00:23)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (00:27)
But it was, and it was one of what eight, I think sessions, something like that. Yeah. Anyway, fortunately. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (00:33)
have chosen not to

sort of be uber mindful of how many sessions so that every time we spend like a day or two doing stuff, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like, uh, we got 97 more of these. just, when they come, I engage and enjoy and.

Jason Allison (00:50)
Yeah,

well, the next one's in person, so that'll be better. But yeah, now, so, you know, we're recording this, we're, you know, midway through January. It's kind of we're starting in the new year. But man, between the two of us, like we've had a bunch of funerals, which is like, I mean, first of all, I'm not even, you know, pastoring a local church right now. And yet I've had, you know, at least two. And then.

Rob Paterson (01:07)
Mm.

Jason Allison (01:17)
You know, you just got through telling me before I hit record that a mutual friend of ours from a while ago passed away yesterday. And like, what is going on? What's what's happening? Why? Why?

Rob Paterson (01:28)
Well, and, and, know, as everybody knows who's in ministry at this time of year, ⁓ everybody's been busy, you know, with Christmas and holiday stuff, like busy personally, church schedule wise for so many pastors and ministry people. And, yeah, I had a funeral. know you had one the week of Christmas and one the week of new years. I had one the week of Christmas, actually the earlier in the day before our first Christmas gathering.

Jason Allison (01:33)
Mm. Yeah. yeah.

Rob Paterson (01:53)
So two days before Christmas Eve. And then I have one this coming Saturday and actually our friend, Matt Thompson, who passed yesterday, just in his fifties to just, you know, just heartbreaking. ⁓ but he, know, he, his, his whole adult life, seems like he's had issues with heart. His heart, had a valve replacement, maybe a couple of those. And when I was talking to him about a month ago and he was saying, Hey, when I, when I go,

Jason Allison (02:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:20)
you know, will you, would you be willing to host, something up in Ohio for my friends and family who he has a lot, he has a huge family and, and a lot of them are here in Ohio. So I was like, absolutely. but you know, like just, it's crazy to think, you know, in your kind of, think he was in his early to mid fifties, and just had all these heart issues and continue started to have heart issues a number of like a year or two ago.

And down south where he lived, you know, they were trying to do stuff, but they were like, you know, there's just too much scar tissue. Like there's nothing we can really do. And so when his heart began to not work and he was filling with fluid and there was really no more they could do, uh, think a week ago, Friday, they just sent him home on hospice. And, know, I mean, can't imagine that, you know, like he has kids, similar ages to my kids and, you know, a great wife. And the thing about Matt.

Jason Allison (02:50)
Wow.

Mm.

No.

Rob Paterson (03:14)
if for anyone who knew him and even if you didn't, know someone like this. He was so consistent and so faithful and anytime you're with him, you just knew that he really cared about you and he loved Jesus like crazy and he always wanted to put those two things together. So you always just felt loved and like you got closer to Jesus when you like spent time with Matt or talk.

Jason Allison (03:19)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, those people like that are unfortunately few and far between. You know what I mean? Like and you would think you and I being, you know, hanging around pastors all the time, we'd run into more people like that. But I don't know. I mean, you know, honestly, like I just knowing, you know, it's been a while since Matt lived up here, but I still remember, you know, hanging and thinking those exact same things that you just described. So.

Rob Paterson (03:41)
Mm.

Jason Allison (04:00)
He was consistent in that and man, a, what a, what a goal to shoot for as a pastor, as a, as a human, right? For it, you know, people to say about you, man, I knew that, that they loved me and I knew that they love Jesus. And for some reason, every time I was with them, I felt even more loved by Jesus, you know, like that. what we get so

Rob Paterson (04:06)
Mm.

Jason Allison (04:22)
caught up in all the stuff of today and being politically correct or being correct in our theology or correct in this or strategies and all this stuff. And man, if we can just help people love Jesus more, let's just start there.

Rob Paterson (04:35)
And the thing that really stands out to me, you said we get caught up in all the things of the world, but I think too we get so caught up in things like somebody's gifts. that person is such a great whatever, singer, speaker, storyteller, like all the things. they're just such a, Matt was none of those things. Matt was not flashy. ⁓

Jason Allison (04:47)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Rob Paterson (04:58)
But man, like, think for all of us, it's like, cause it's honestly, it's easier to have a good heart and to just like love people well, but we're like, you know, that's not enough. That's not good enough. have to get better at this. have to develop that and, certainly developing those things like matters and makes a difference. But, you know, I think again, we get seduced by things that ultimately don't matter as much.

Jason Allison (05:26)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (05:26)
and

we miss out on really being and becoming the things that are accessible to all of us. And Matt, put on a masterclass of doing that with his life. Again, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't gonna win an award for being flashy, but just his consistency and his deep passion for Jesus and people just shine through in everything he did. So good. ⁓

Jason Allison (05:34)
Mm. Yeah.

No.

Yeah. yeah. Yeah. You

know, so yesterday, the meeting that we were in all day long, it was it was interesting to me. One of the charts that they went through and showed us, they had collected all this data from our churches and from, you know, in our region. And they were, you know, just showing some correlations and yada, yada, yada. It's fine. But they threw up a chart at one point that showed the tenure of the pastors and the size of the church and then

than we had ranked them on a health type scale that was subjective to say the least. But I think it was helpful for what it was. And it was interesting to me to see that the pastors that had been at a church for a long time, almost all of them were towards the healthy side of the scale. Right. Like if a pastor had been somewhere more than 10 years, that church was more likely.

to be towards the healthy side of the scale. And yet the average tenure of a pastor in America today is like four and a half years. And then we wonder why we don't have healthy churches. And so again, and even the guy leading it from Clarity House said that we can't say that this is causation. That just because you have a long-term pastor means you'll be healthy, but we can at least see that there's some correlation.

in what's going on. And I don't know, when we were just talking through that and working through some other stuff and you and I have been spending time together in various ways, you know, and just talking about life and church and whatever. And yes, yes. And I just keep coming back to this topic of, you know, the structures and the systems that are that we have in our churches and how there's just a bunch of them that they

Rob Paterson (07:21)
and with lots of different pastors.

Jason Allison (07:36)
they just aren't working well. And then when things like, you know, your last couple of weeks with funerals and extra stuff added in, it strains our systems naturally. And when our systems have no wiggle room to give, then everything start feels like it starts crumbling when one more thing is added. Right. And so I'm just I just thought today, let's just talk about that for a little bit, because I got a feeling.

Rob Paterson (07:57)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (08:02)
our listeners, the pastors who are listening, even just the leaders, whether you're leading in a church or somewhere else, you've got this feel of, man, if I had one more thing added, you know, that's the straw that breaks the camel back camel's back kind of thing is, man, what do I need to do in order to make sure my systems and structures are healthy and, you know, are putting things in the right in the right mode so that I can, you know, make progress and move the needle.

Rob Paterson (08:29)
Yeah. Well, and Jason, like, we had a guest on a month or so ago, maybe a couple of months now, Reagan van Stenis, who's the lawyer who worked with Joel Osteen right out of college, right out of law school. you know, helped kind of in those early days and still does with Joel Osteen's ministry and church. And now it works with like lots of different churches to really help make sure. And, and I still remember, you know, what she said, which I think for a lot of us, I mean, even you and I makes.

Like there's part of you when you're like, man, I'm fighting against everything. And, and I know what God wants me to do. And I know what the right thing to do is, but like all of my people, my leaders, they don't want to do that. Like you, you can want this, but you know, like what she said, right. Hey, you know, when a, when a pastor's leading and the board should either get behind that pastor or Lee get out of the way, because it's just not healthy to stop. it's like, and.

Jason Allison (09:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:24)
I think again, there's moments where all of us go, absolutely, that's what should happen. And then there's other moments where we're like, ooh, if I had made that decision, you know, it was like, it was, it was a bad day. got some bad Mexican, you know, whatever. I shouldn't have been allowed to make that decision, you know? So like just that unilateral power, but yeah, I mean, and I think like how you have said it before, you know, is there a biblical structure for the church? How should.

Jason Allison (09:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:50)
our churches be structured and run. And I know for some people, you know, they're, they're bound just by their own constitutional bylaws. They're maybe bound even denominationally in terms of, how they have to function. But I still remember in the, in the denomination that I came from, they were really, you know, thinking through their structures as a whole denomination. And then even the different regions and even the local churches. Cause the problem was at the time they actually had three.

they were called, general superintendents, but presidents, whatever you want to call it. Oops. You know, there were three of them. And one of the, one of the critiques, at least, you know, in the people that I would talk to was always, well, if things aren't going well, who do you hold accountable? You know, if there's three leaders or 10 leaders or however many, if everybody's a leader together, you know, you know, who, who, who gets to lead, who gets to decide if it's all by committee, if it's not going well, you know,

Jason Allison (10:33)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (10:47)
Where's the accountability in that? And actually that began this, this whole process of saying, no, no, no, no, we're going to go to one person's cause we want this person to lead and make decisions and we're going to support that in every way we can. But you know what, like after a bad decision or two or three, you know, if, if we see that they're not leading well, then there's accountability to that. How can we help them get better? At what point do we need to start looking for a different leader?

Jason Allison (10:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:11)
You know, which, which the book they were going through was, John Edwin Kaiser's book winning on purpose. ⁓ and cause he really advocates for not the leadership by committee, like actually have a leader, let them lead, support their leadership. but also make sure you build in, you know, there's accountability cause you get to make decisions, but if you make a number of poor decisions that, you know,

Jason Allison (11:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:38)
send us in the wrong direction or put us in jeopardy, then we're going to have to really seriously evaluate if you're the right leader to go forward.

Jason Allison (11:46)
Yeah. And the hard part with that is, some of our listeners are maybe part of a denomination where this they're given the structure. They don't get to pick, you know, they don't get to choose. And that's I get that. I understand that. But I do think within that, even within some of those constraints of a outside structure, good leader who's really just in tune with what God is is telling them to do.

Right. It's just really completely submitted to God, completely listening to the Holy Spirit. I feel like they're going to lead and it may slow them. The structure may slow them down slightly, but man, if they're if God is moving and they are in tune with that and calling people into that, then at some point, I don't care what the structure is, the Holy Spirit is going to do what the Holy Spirit is going to do. So I don't want to make this sound like

we get to control how God leads the church. But in the same breath, it is interesting that all these churches that I work with, there's not one structure. Within our tribe, there's some core little things. But beyond that, there's a whole bunch of variations. And yet, they all want to be biblical. I'm like, quit.

Rob Paterson (12:49)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (13:01)
about being biblical be practical you know because the Bible has all these words you can use for the leaders and you know there's the press buddha rose there's a you know like all the the bishops and the deacons and the elders and the apostles and the teachers and and instead of worrying about trying to clarify all that and then put it into an American context and you know the 21st century

How about you just ask, what did Jesus call us to do and are we doing it? And what's the best way to do it in our context right now?

Rob Paterson (13:31)
Yeah.

So yeah, I got a question. I got to push back on something you just said, you know, like, Hey, if someone's leading and the spirit is moving, like the spirit's going to do what the spirit wants to do no matter what. And I'm like, okay. But man, I don't know. I talked to lots of people whose story sounds more like, you know, the spirit is leading and things are moving. And I, you know, I'm desperate to move forward, to push, to, to.

Jason Allison (13:33)
Yeah, please.

Rob Paterson (13:57)
lead in this way, but basically the bureaucracy of the church that isn't a lot of times in church, especially as they like lose focus, right? Maybe they're for any number of reasons, they have just lost focus of their mission. And now their focus is safety, responsibility, longevity. Like how do we basically just kind of, you know, do nothing risky so that we don't like risk imminent death, you know?

Jason Allison (14:15)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:24)
I, I'm kind of that age as a human being where I'm starting to be like jumping off this ladder is no longer a good idea. Like it would have been like 10 years ago. Right. so.

Jason Allison (14:33)
Yeah, my financial

advisor said you're at the age where high risk is no longer something you want. You have the lifespan to endure, so might be time to reduce a little bit. So yeah, I totally get what you're saying.

Rob Paterson (14:42)
Right?

So yeah, like are there those moments too though, where like, you know, a leader wants to lead and is trying to lead and the spirit is moving, but the structures or just sort of the established, you know, whatever committees leaders, you know, are, are roadblocking that. And so the thing that the actual leader of the church, the pastor and the spirit want to do really may not ever happen there in that context.

Jason Allison (15:13)
And I would say, yes, you're absolutely correct. What the spirit is leading may not happen, but I think that's because there are leaders and I don't mean the necessarily the lead pastor. mean, leaders within the structure that are resisting the spirit. And I would call that sin. I mean, I don't know what else to call it. And so when you've got a board or a group of trustees or a group of ministry leaders, whatever title you give them that are saying,

Hey, I really sense God is telling you, you know, as the pastor, we need to try this. We need it. But you know what? With our insurance and with the cost of stuff, I just I just don't think it would be wise for us to be obedient to what God is calling us to do. You know, like, I mean, that's what there's.

Rob Paterson (15:58)
I like how you said that because,

because you would say wisdom is a very important biblical value, but obedience is too, right? So, there's plenty of times in the Bible where you see obedience, like kind of standing in the face of wisdom. mean, even Jesus, look at the guy, he got himself crucified, you know, and, he could have, he could have, he could have not said those things. He could have not done some of those things.

Jason Allison (16:03)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (16:23)
And, you know, maybe live to a ripe old age and whatever, but that's, wasn't why God put him here.

Jason Allison (16:29)
Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, even things like, you know, Gideon and his army and, know, instead of thousands, you're going to go with 300 and, know, and Moses, you know, hold out your arms and the water will part. What? I mean, that none of that is logical. But when they're obedient in the midst of that, that's when God shows up and does stuff. The safe thing would have. And honestly, as you watch the children of Israel wandering through the desert, if Moses was leading by consensus,

they would have gone back to Egypt. And so there is a point at which the leader needs to say, this God is calling us to this, to go back to Egypt would be, it would be sinful. It would destroy us. so, and honestly, I think sometimes as a leader, if you reach the point where the people don't want to follow, they don't want to try the new thing. They don't want to, you know, step out.

Rob Paterson (17:01)
Mm.

Jason Allison (17:27)
in boldness do something, then honestly, that might be a sign to leave.

Rob Paterson (17:33)
Yeah. Well, and, so I think, you know, for thinking like structurally, like we began talking about, you know, what we've been discussing here for these last couple of minutes is kind of more of this bureaucratic model of church, right? Where a pastor basically is, is the employee of the congregation and, the board. so they have responsibility. Like we trust you're going to like conduct Sunday services. You're going to do the marrying and bearing and the

You know, the preaching and the praying and all those kinds of things, but you have no authority to actually, you know, make decisions to lead, without, know, all of us kind of signing off on it. So it's kind of a safe structure, right? If you're in a bureaucratic structure, but sometimes it really lacks effectiveness. If kind of the, the structure that exists is, is not faith-filled is not like.

uh, in tune with like looking outward and being missional. Um, and even really, I mean, cause there too, right? Like there's lots and lots of ways, um, to be on mission. Like, you know, there's like small ways and practical ways that each of us as individuals and families can and should be on mission. And sometimes what we do is we take our own like thinking as like, what do I want to do? What do I want to do with my family? What do I want to do in my house? And we say, well, that's what the church should do too. And it's like, well,

Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe what the church should do are different things or sometimes larger things or whatever, right? So it just gets so frustrating. I still remember a professor in college who said this, he said, in that structure, wasn't called elders, but it was called the church board, the LBA, the local board of administration. And he basically said, hey, if you're a pastor and you're in a church where you're,

Your LBA is not, you know, with you and they constantly oppose everything you think want to do. Like, and there's just no kind of synergy there. He's like, you've got to immediately resign and go somewhere else because like you're just over time, all you're going to do is blow up the church, you know, because you're going to be frustrated. They're going to be frustrated and that's going to trickle down to all the people. And they're going to be like, we're not really doing anything. We're not really going anywhere.

Jason Allison (19:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:42)
And it seems like our leadership is not unified. And that's a problem,

Jason Allison (19:46)
Mm

Yeah. Well, yeah. And I do think there is there is also a balance of finding that unity within one of the whatever structure you might have building that consensus, but building that among the leaders and as opposed to the opposite, which is a dictatorship, right? Where, you know, the pastor comes down from the mountain and says, thus saith the Lord and everybody, everybody has to obey it as though it were a command from God.

And then there's no accountability, right? And that's where it gets dangerous. And we see, you know, these leaders who maybe were given that kind of authority abuse it and because we're all fallen. so that's why. So it's like there's a balance that we need to find between the bureaucracy that originally was created to provide accountability, but then just kind of grew and grew and grew, you know, and now all of a sudden it's a morass.

that you can't wade through to truly get anything done. But the opposite at first seems really exciting. Right. You know, you've got someone with a vision from God and everybody's excited and you're on board and we're charging that mountain. But then the first time they go a little off track or they start, you know, doing something that's a little little out of what it should be. There's no one to call them on it. And that can be just as dangerous.

Rob Paterson (20:49)
Mm.

Sure. I constantly feel the tension, like on sort of my own end, where I think to myself, you know, like, I never want to, I never want to like be the thus saith the Lord. either get on board with what I'm saying or leave, cause that's, that's just not who I am. Like at all. I'm very, very, but you know, there are certainly the moments in my own ministry where I I could literally spend years, you know,

doing research, having conversations, which is not me. Like when I make a decision in my own mind and heart, like I'm ready to go, but you know, but still for the sake of the whole, for the sake of consensus, like I have had times where I've spent literally years and years and years having meetings and conversations and having people speak into from the outside, you know, and still like, it's like, know, yep, no, I'm just never going to see it that way. And that's like that.

That's like, can be a really, really hard thing. And quite honestly, I suspect people sometimes feel from me in those moments, like I'm accusing them of being sort of the bureaucrats who are stopping God. But honestly, on the inside, what I really feel like is I'm not, I'm not like trying to force my way and be an authoritarian. Cause like, you know, I don't want to be that. I don't want to do that. I'm, I'm a go together guy. You know, I want to ride together to places. I want to.

Jason Allison (22:13)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Rob Paterson (22:30)
do things with other people. That's so important to me. so, yeah, I mean, what do you do when you're kind of stuck in between those two things? Do we have a third option here in terms of structure and moving forward? When you really feel like, this has continued to be something that God is calling us to, but your people on any level just are like, yeah, we don't want to do that. We don't want to move forward.

Jason Allison (22:57)
Yeah, I mean, you know that the structure that would be great in that instance would be one that's more leaning more towards accountability, right? It's there's there's there's a permission or empowerment to lead and and you have the authority to do so. But then there's the the accountability structure underneath that rather than over top of that. That is saying, hey, that's great, but.

You know, let's let's think. But when it's over top of you as a leader, then it weighs you down. When it's underneath you, it actually lifts you up and it helps you see from a different perspective. And so that accountability is still there. You still have a group of people who are going to hold your feet to the fire when you need it. And they're going to call you out when you need it because you've given them permission and there's a trust that has been built between you because you can also call them out, you know, as as just

people following Jesus together. mean, I feel like, and that structure can be done within a variety of structures. Like it's not that that's the secret magic structure that could be in a elder led church, that could be in a pastor led church, that could be in a board driven church or a staff driven church. Like it could be from a, you know, a Bishop led movement in a more hierarchical

you know, denominational type structure. But that takes time to build the trust and to submit one to another as Jesus called us to do, as Paul called us to do, forgiving one another, embracing one another, caring for one another, all those things.

Rob Paterson (24:35)
Yeah. So I have a great illustration of what you were just talking about in terms of like your accountability, not being on top of you to crush you, but being underneath you to support you. So we had a thing a couple of weeks ago at new hope community church in Loudonville, Ohio. So, and I was, I wasn't even aware of this after the fact. but there was, a lady who came, older lady and she

stormed out of our gathering. And she was like ranting and raving around in the our lobby, found one of our guards, you know, who does the kind of safety and security team guy, and was ranting to him about how loud the music was and how that was like sinful and wrong and not biblical. And, and then bumped into another person was having that conversation. And somebody like noticed this and went down. And my assistant

for the second gathering is usually in her office doing some work. And so she came down and was talking to this person. And then my, my wife came off stage after the worship set was done. And she basically intercepted this lady and they had a conversation too. And, then we actually afterwards all could talk to her because she stayed, she came in, she even stayed for the closing song, lo and behold. But afterwards, when we were talking to her, there were a couple of things. First of all,

Jason Allison (25:41)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (25:48)
Everyone she talked to was kind and was gracious and was loving toward her. ⁓ Now what happens when somebody shows up who you don't know and they don't know you and they just start making accusations about you not being biblical and you being sinful and all of your things you do and whatever, without any questions, without any interaction at all. Like I think the tendency of most human beings, right, is to kind of like stand up for your

Jason Allison (25:53)
Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:16)
your space and your practices and your whatever and to let her have it like no lady you're wrong you know but as

Jason Allison (26:21)
Yeah, well, that's where

you want to look at her and say, right? mean, you you showed up. You don't have to stay. Don't let the door hit you or the good Lord split you. Right. Like, mean.

Rob Paterson (26:30)
Amen. Right.

But, know, afterwards there are people that came, went up to her to, to continue conversation, to, to show grace. And then I ended up in a conversation Bethany and I did afterwards. And she actually just at this like, cause we were like, Hey, can we pray for you? And she's like, you know, she just said, I'm so sorry. This is not who I am. You know, and it came out that, her husband of decades who was also in, in, ministry,

Jason Allison (26:49)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (26:56)
divorced her is kicking her out of her house. So she's like, like on the verge of homelessness, has had some other losses and health kinds of things. And, and literally she just was able to say, Hey, like, I am sorry for my behavior this morning. But if we hadn't been kind and gracious, if we would have sort of been, we're right and you're wrong and how dare you. And if we would have responded in kind to her, the way she was sort of behaving.

Jason Allison (26:57)
Ugh.

Hmm.

Rob Paterson (27:21)
But you know, one of the things Bethany's just been saying over and over again, as we tell that story is I'm so proud of how all of our people reacted and behaved in this situation and toward her, because that's a win, right? And so like one of the things I always tell my staff, because it's the same thing at the staff level, right? We can get frustrated with situations or with people. And I noticed this tendency. I mean, I noticed it even in myself and on my team, right? Like there can be this tendency to get

grumpy and gruff as you think about or talk about various things. And it's like, listen, no, like we've got, we've got like, can come in here and complain to me whenever you want, but you know, we've got to be kind. We've got to be loving. We've got to be like Jesus. We've got to be generous, you know? And so when someone asks you to do something, don't just say, no, we don't do that around here. You know, like how about lead with a yes, like start, you know, I hear what you're saying. Yes, let's do that. But first,

We might need to make sure that we can account for this and this and this, you know, and that's the exact, like when I just have people tell me, Nope, Nope, Nope. That's wrong. Nope. I that's bad. No, we should never do that. Like, like there's no conversation there, but like, yeah, you know what I could, I could see why that could be good. Why that might help how God could use that, but maybe

Jason Allison (28:29)
Thank

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (28:44)
But we need to make sure we cover these basis and figure these things out before we, know, like to me, those are two drastically different things. And one of them literally feels crushing. Like I don't like the clock's ticking on my time. If this is what we're going to do or be versus man, like I just love these people because they're really supporting what God seems to be doing in my mind and heart and life. And they, they want to do it.

Jason Allison (28:48)
Yeah.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (29:14)
But we, you know, sometimes you just need to, you figure some things out first. And I love that.

Jason Allison (29:19)
Yeah, yeah, as I'm thinking back, I've served in a few different churches from a few different tribes, right, you know, that had different structures that were the norm. And what I've seen is the churches that were that all of them had examples of really healthy leadership structures, even though they were different. But some of the things that I think about when I look back.

the ones that were healthy and I saw movement, it wasn't stuck, wasn't sloshing through the bureaucracy, right? Were the ones where the leaders had built a reputation of being trustworthy. And it happened because they were faithful over an extended period of time. So that's part of it. And then another thing is they were truly in that mutual submission type of mentality, that was their mentality of, you

Submit one to another as Paul put it in Ephesians and There's a there's an attitude that comes with that that says you know what? God could be speaking through you just as much as he could through me and I'm willing to listen I'm willing to just exactly what you were just describing right of hey, let's start with yes And then let's let's have a conversation around it and say but those are just some things I've noticed and and some of those you know

as the leadership changes, because you've got boards that every three years, maybe there's a change or there's whatever. I could see a difference based on the type of people coming in. But what I noticed is the places where the pastor, whether structurally or not he was in charge, he took the onus upon himself to lead, even if it was from underneath, but he would lead.

He would develop those characters and those qualities, right? Within those, that leadership of saying, hey, this is what it means to be a leader here. This is what it means to submit one to it. This is what it means to love each other. This is, know, and, your job is not to say no to everything and protect status quo, right? Your job is to listen to what God is saying. And I think I said this, I don't know, a month ago or so on one of our

conversations, but I was in Iowa with chemistry staffing and Matt Steyn and I were doing this succession planning thing at a church that I'd never been, you I'd never been to this church. I'd never even honestly heard of the denomination because it was brand new. Like they were and their way they were structured. They had the elders and they had deacons or ministry leaders that a pastor and staff, but there was a combined group of all that.

And this was the term I had never heard. I understand it now, but called the Consistory. And it was like a general board, but it was made up of multiple people. And I think on this, this was a larger church in that denomination. I think they were one of the largest, but I mean, they were running 500 give or take, you know, it's not like it was this massive mega church, but I mean, there were 20 people on the Consistory. But here's what I loved about it. When a person came onto this

board, this consistory, one of the first things that the pastor would tell them and kind of an orientation to their role on this. said, listen, I want you to know you are not a representative of the people on this leadership board. You are a representative of Jesus to the people from this leadership board. And I thought that's a pretty big mind shift.

from the way a lot of people see themselves on a board, know, like I got elected to represent, cause I'm in the house of representatives on the church board. No, you were chosen by God to represent God to the people. And that just changes the conversations in these, you know, in a board meeting and elders meeting and you know, whatever, because now we're not saying, well, this group of people really want this, you know, we're not arguing for.

Rob Paterson (32:56)
Mm.

Jason Allison (33:18)
compromises and to try to get everyone happy. Instead we're saying how do we communicate to the people what God is saying to us and what God is leading this church toward as we make disciples and impact our community.

Rob Paterson (33:32)
Yeah. so good. So a couple of thoughts that I have here, you know, I I've just, cause I've seen this so many times, you know, sometimes, and this, this is just a good practice, you know, when you're electing people or doing whatever to your consistory or to your leadership team or to your elder board or, whatever it is that you have, you know, a lot of times people that, you know, are good people who love Jesus and who are consistent and safe and up on

these, you know, these teams and those are all like good things. that's, there's like, there's nothing wrong with that. But again, if somebody's sort of orientation or wiring is just safety and protection, and, not at all leadership, you know, not at all the ability to, you know, kind of discern the will of God to be faith-filled to, yeah, it's like what we heard in a meeting you and I were in last week, right? Where somebody said that,

actually, this actually was more and it wasn't that it was the podcast we did last week, that, training always happens in community, you know, like you, you don't, it's not like I did it by myself. And so now I know like, no, like, you know, and if 90 % of people are saying something, you know, maybe, and you disagree, you know,

Jason Allison (34:34)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:48)
Maybe you're not the lone remnant of God who's just needs to protect everybody else from themselves. Maybe God's trying to do something and you need to be a little more flexible, you know? So I, you know, I just, I over decades now I've learned, man, that'd be a great person to be on a team. And then they get on that team and they're not a great person to be on the team. Not that you want everybody to be like fly by the seat of their pants, like, you know, do everything yesterday. That's a bad team too.

Jason Allison (34:56)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (35:16)
but really trying to strike that balance and have people like you said, be able to hear from Jesus, you know, ⁓ is super important. And one of the things in this, this podcast is going to drop the day after we have our annual meeting and I'm planning to share this, but you and I in the meeting we were in last week, our buddy who's been on the podcast two or three times now, Derek Sanford said this thing because recently he, went and hung out with Larry Osborne, which what a, what an awesome.

Jason Allison (35:22)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:44)
opportunity. I'd love to do that. And, and he said that he got this sort of window of time with Larry, and they were in a car going somewhere together. And, so Larry was, you know, part of the Jesus people movement. And like, if you if any of our listeners have watched the movie here recently, you know, Larry was like in the group of people that went up to the pastor's door to knock to see

Jason Allison (35:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:08)
And so Derek, you know, thinking, Hey, like people are talking about the unique moment we're in. Is this going to be kind of the next, you know, kind of great move of God and our country and our culture. you know, cause that was really the last one. And so Derek was just probing and saying, Hey, like, what are some similarities you see? And like, what are, what are, what would you say to people and leaders? And I wrote it down, because this just, man, it just sort of penetrated my mind and my heart.

Jason Allison (36:21)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (36:35)
When Larry was like, you know, I was talking to a church and they're like, Hey, we want to do this great thing to reach more people for Jesus. Cause we're seeing momentum, but we're going to be super responsible and we're going to save up and we're going to, think we can do it four or five years from now. And Larry's like, like you will have missed the opportunity. You won't need to do it four or five years from now. So, and this doesn't have to cost money. That's not the point, but whatever it is, whatever you're building, whatever you're doing, whatever initiative that you.

you know, believe God is going to use to reach more people for Jesus. Do it now, like just do it now, because if this is like, you know, we, were seeing this, you know, with just the great interest in the, in the response from, you know, the ending of Charlie Kirk's life and just kind of the, the, revival's taking place. seems like on many secular college campuses, like the as Barry, like just a lot of stuff that we're seeing.

Jason Allison (37:06)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:27)
especially with younger generations that is very, very promising. But we have got to capitalize on what God is up to and not play it safe and wait forever to act. If we really believe God's doing something, let's pour gas on that fire now and figure it out afterwards.

Jason Allison (37:44)
As we go.

Yeah, I agree. Well, wherever you're at in the country, in the world, we'd love to hear what you're doing, how you're seeing God move. Hey, share with us some frustrations you might have that, you know, and let's see if we can get creative and figure out some solutions. We are here to help. We are here because we love the church. We love Jesus and we love what Jesus is doing through the church.

And we want to help make sure that that's going on all over. think, you know, Rob, what you were saying, don't wait that that. Yeah, don't wait. It's time to do something and see what God is going to do through you. Hey, have an amazing week. We are just we just love you and we are honored that you would take a few minutes and listen. So have a great week.