The Gain of Giving Up

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Rob and Jason delve into the significance of Lent, discussing its impact on personal and communal spiritual growth. They explore the concepts of fasting and feasting, emphasizing the importance of sacrifice in both personal lives and church ministry. Through personal anecdotes, they illustrate how sacrifices can lead to greater clarity and purpose in ministry, urging listeners to revisit their vision and adapt to the changing needs of their communities.

Check out the Seasons of Seven article that the guys referenced from Clarity House.

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. Rob, man, it's really good to see you. I feel like it's been forever. It hasn't been, but still, it's just every moment that I'm not seeing you is a moment that I'm not seeing you.

Rob Paterson (00:11)
Huh.

That is maybe the truest thing you've ever said.

Jason Allison (00:19)
It's very deep, isn't it? ⁓

hey, so this this episode is dropping, you know, just about about not quite a full week into Lent. And, know, you and I have been talking a little about it because like me, you know, I think you grew up in a you didn't grow up in a home that observed Lent. But I grew up in a home that not only didn't observe Lent, but we were part of a church that if anyone ever asked about

Lent, someone in the church would say something to the effect of, oh, it's a Catholic thing. And we don't do that kind of stuff. And so I honestly, growing up, just did not know anything about Lent. I didn't understand it. All I really knew is you had to give something up. And I didn't like that as a kid. mean, what kid wants to hear, oh, yeah, for the next, you know, month and a half, no sweets. Sorry, because Jesus died for you.

So you have to, like, I mean, that was the way it was spelled, which is totally wrong and not at all the right way to, but that's basically what I heard is you didn't really, you're growing up, you you guys didn't really go to church, especially early on. But I mean, your church actually, you guys observe some of the liturgical calendar stuff when it comes to Lent and those things.

Rob Paterson (01:38)
Yeah,

and you know, although, you know, Courtney would be ashamed of me for saying this, because she's all about, like, just the constant ritual, no matter what one of the things we've always done is we've tried to do things like we do something and it's really, really, really impactful. We don't want to just it so impactful. Let's do it again and again and again and again and again. We're like, let's shelve that for like, five years, and then we'll do it like, again.

you know, that's more of our thing because we don't want it to become common and regular, you know. So, yeah, but for a number of years, we haven't done it for a couple of years, but we, you know, would host a very, we used to do actually a big kind of evening thing on Ash Wednesday that a lot of people came to. And then we were like, you know what, it kind of betrays the whole thing of Lent to do that. So we would do it super duper early in the morning. And it went from being like,

100 150 people coming to you know, like a dozen because like who wants to get up like and Show up at like 5 or 5 30 or 6 in the morning You know to hear some readings and prayer and to get the imposition of ashes and just those things but we were always like hey listen like There is no such thing as resurrection unless there's death and so we want this to be hard We want to sacrifice, you know, and so we lean into that

And quite honestly, man, it always frustrated me. It still happens from time to time where people, you know, maybe they show up at the church, they've really enjoyed their experience and they go snooping around on the website and they'll see some Ash Wednesday stuff out there. And so they'll be like, hey, let's grab lunch. And I've had this happen, I don't know, half dozen or more times. People will be like, explain the Ash Wednesday thing, because I know that's Catholic. And so why are you doing Catholic things? And it's like,

Jason Allison (03:12)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (03:29)
You know, and I'm happy to answer that question if it's an honest question, but it usually, like you can hear it in the tone of their voice. There's just this judgment and rejection. And I'm like, man, first of all, this is not a Catholic thing other than yes, it's a universal church thing. Many, many, many traditions practice it. Most actually do in some way, or form.

Even though Catholics tend to be more consistent in it, which is why that that misnomer exists out there But man, it's such a beautiful thing to spend these 45 days from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday Actually journeying toward the cross just going to a good Friday service and pondering death and then two days later Whoo, we get to celebrate resurrection Just lacks so much depth. But if we actually spend

Jason Allison (03:59)
Yeah. ⁓

Hmm.

Rob Paterson (04:23)
these 45 days journeying toward the cross, sacrificing something, really spending extra time identifying with Jesus in this journey, man, does it make resurrection powerful.

Jason Allison (04:37)
Yeah, so I told you a little bit ago that I was writing an article for our local newspaper and it came out recently for and it was about Lent just because, we were getting ready to celebrate it. And one of the things that I wrote about was the fact that the thing that is so powerful about Lent is that it is, yes, everything you just said. And I would add to that. And we do it as a community.

Rob Paterson (05:05)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (05:05)
Right. As a church,

the whole church is involved in this death, right? know, death to something, losing something, lacking something. And then it culminates in the whole community celebrating. And so there's something about doing that together that I think just adds, you know, another amazing layer of the significance of these these seasons.

that we observe in the church, the seasons that we have in our lives and how, I don't know, I think we just need to start thinking in terms of seasons ⁓ because I think it could really help us just recategorize some things and maybe give ourselves permission to jump into a season, even if the season technically started, right? mean, Lent has already started, but hey, you still got 40 days left, you know.

Rob Paterson (05:44)
Mm.

Jason Allison (06:01)
Until Easter gets here. It's all right to start now. I don't think Jesus is going to be mad at you

Rob Paterson (06:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

So let me just, for maybe those of you who have never really thought about Lent or practiced Lent or even considered it as something like this season of church life heading toward Easter, like it's something that you should do something in or participate in in any way. Let me just say a couple general things that might be helpful. So first of all, like you said, Jason, I think as a culture, we're very quick to say, well, I already missed the start. I didn't think about it. I didn't pray about it.

So I will do that for next year, guys. And you know what? Next year, starting on Ash Wednesday, I'll give something up, I'll sacrifice, and I'll do it the right way. You have 40 days in front of you. Do something this year. And it doesn't have to be a huge thing. Just do something. Another thing that I think is really cool, you might be like, can't give something up that's important to me or significant for 40 days. That's crazy, Rob.

Well, one of the one of the kind of common ways to practice this is is again, it's all about feasting and fasting, right? Fasting and feasting. then the feasting is magnified because we gave something up. We we fasted. And so, you know, the idea is because some people like, wasn't it supposed to be 40 days? Why do you keep saying 45 days? Well, between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday is 45 days. But it's actually 40 days of fasting.

because the Sunday is like a celebration day. It's a feast, it's a Sabbath, it's a time off. So give something up, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then even in this process, Sunday is your Sabbath from that. You get to enjoy that thing. It's not about self-denial or crushing yourself. It's about fasting, that leads ultimately to feasting. And then think about this, and I love fasting as a great idea.

And honestly, one of my pet peeves is when people say, well, I just fasted chocolate because I don't I mean, I like chocolate, but I don't really eat it much. And that'll be easy. Well, that first of all, don't do that. Like give up something that's really meaningful and important to you. Secondly, you can say I apply the principles of fasting to this thing. But fasting actually means to not eat. So if you're I'm going to fast television. Well, you know, you're applying the principles of fasting to your television consumption.

But that's not fasting. Fasting is not eating. just, you know, just be mindful of that. So we'll just use the idea of fasting if someone says, hey, I'm not going to eat for the next 40 days or, you know, whatever's left minus the Sundays because you eat on Sunday. Think about how that Easter meal is going to taste after all of that self denial. And I just, this so important. Like a lot of times you're like, well, I've been on the

the planet for 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years. I mean, I've been around for a lot of Easter's. It's great. We love Easter. Obviously it's like one of those foundational parts of our whole faith, right? Um, but you know, it's kind of old hat and it's like, if you feel that way at all, it's because you have not adequately prepared to really celebrate resurrection and experience the precursor death.

Jason Allison (09:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, there's something about giving something up and then getting it back. You know, that there's just a joy. And honestly, for me, I our culture is totally against delayed gratification. Like we just don't want to wait for anything. And I'm I'm as guilty as the next person. So I am not, you know, he who lives in a. Yeah. But there is we just live in this world where

Rob Paterson (09:27)
Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, me too. No judgment from us.

Jason Allison (09:50)
If I want it now, I'm going to get it. And in so doing, we create a culture that is undisciplined and is not able then to truly celebrate when we do get the thing that we've been working toward. so, you know, I just feel like Lent is one of those seasons that just continues to elevate and to show us how, just how undisciplined and how.

you immediate gratification is almost a god, you know, an idol in our culture.

Rob Paterson (10:21)
Yeah,

you know, this kind of leads me to something kind of personal in my own life because a lot of people, we've maybe talked a little bit about this or at least alluded to it, but six years ago, Bethany and I sold our perfectly good house that was, you know, relatively complete, nice, in a nice neighborhood.

and we bought a fixer upper on 20 acres. And literally like it was fixer upper to the level where there was like, you know, drywall falling in on the ceiling because there'd been some water leaking in. The house had really good bones, but just needed a lot of work. And so instead of moving into the mess, we actually ripped it all out and moved into the basement. One of my kids would call it the hotel because you know, we go on vacation and stay in a hotel room. We're all living in the same room.

That was what we did for like the first, you know, better part of a year. And we started working on the main level and got flooring in and got a kitchen. And I mean, it was six months before we really had an ability other than a microwave downstairs to actually cook any food in our own house. and, and, and so like, you know, everything, everybody knows this is so slow because it's so expensive. Right. and, and, and so, you know, we got a lot done on the main level.

And then I'm just, mean, if I'm being honest, like I've lived a lot of the last five years with this sort of stress and pressure thinking, if I could get the house finished before we die, that would seem like a really like, that would that make me feel good. And it would maybe also require a miracle just because I, again, I could start naming projects and numbers. But, you know, like it would it would overwhelm me again.

So even as I'm sitting right where I'm sitting, I'm looking around, I'm like, well, I need to replace all those windows. There's a stack of wood over there that's gonna be, needs to be painted and installed as the trim all around me. And like everywhere I look, there's a project and every project is gonna cost me thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. And so it's a little bit overwhelming. And about a year ago, we hired a guy to come in. I ripped a bunch of stuff out of our bathroom that was like, it was terrible.

had a leaky shower that we didn't really use because it wasn't very usable. There was a bathtub that was small enough that no adult that was not a hobbit could actually even fit in. you tried it once and Bethany tried it once and neither of us were like, we just don't fit in that. So it's like sub floor. It's just like, you know, it was kind of nasty. So a year ago, we like ripped all that out. We hired a guy to come where the bath was and build us a really nice shower.

And so that happened and I'm like, well, I can do like this, this, this, this, and this, and then maybe I'll have him come back and do the tile floor. And then I can do a few. Like, so that was like the thought. And honestly, that shower sat there for about a year and, in the bathroom just got stalled. And then we started to like put parts and pieces in the room. We did a couple of things, but then it became this collection place for other things that didn't have a home.

And in order to even like for me to do another part of the project would have required like two hours of taking all the stuff out of there, know, kind of cleaning up. And it was just awful. Well, in the last month, I, we were like, listen, we cannot keep living life, not having the ability to brush our teeth, to shower, to use a toilet on the main level of our house. can't keep having our small group over and having inviting people over without a bathroom that's usable.

Like, it's just,

Jason Allison (13:45)
I know you

know every time I was there if I said I got used to bathroom you made me go outside.

Rob Paterson (13:50)
Right? Which when you have like 20 acres and like no neighbors, you can do that. But we have a bathroom downstairs, but it's like the dungeon and it's like in Liam's living space and the toilet looks like it's been there for, you know, a million years. And it's just like all the things, right? It's just like, this is not a sustainable way to live in this part of the world. And so we're like, I just listen, I'm going do a little bit right now, but like as soon as my guy can come back, he's coming back.

Jason Allison (13:52)
Yeah, I don't know, but still, it's...

Yes.

Rob Paterson (14:18)
and we're gonna pay him whatever he charges and we're gonna finish the bathroom. My bathroom is now finished. And right, which is so cool. And honestly, like my life just feels a lot more, ⁓ in part because our bedroom isn't filled with the light that was gonna go in the bathroom and the mirror that was gonna go in the bathroom and the two of the three vanity boxes in the countertop. Like we were literally like in our bedroom, it's relatively spacious. were literally.

Jason Allison (14:23)
Yay!

Yes.

Rob Paterson (14:45)
Dancing around all these things that needed to go in the room right next door, but wasn't ready for all that stuff, right? So we lived like that for a whole year which just added chaos and Stress to our lives that we didn't need right, but it's there too like time energy skill and money that we we didn't have at least multiple things on that list and we might have had the money but we didn't have the skill or the time or the energy or whatever, right?

or we had the other things, but we didn't have the money to do what needed to be done. So we're like, we're just gonna do it. And we prioritize that and we push pause on paying off some debt. We push pause on some other things that we wanted to do in order to accomplish this important goal. And we accomplished it. And it was so inspiring to do this that I'm like, I wanna be able to do more of this. you know, cause I'm tired of living.

like needing a whole bunch of things to get done that I just don't have the ability, the money or the capacity to do. very quickly, Bethany and I started talking and we actually like as of this morning, we just, just made this happen. I'm like, you know what? So we have two vehicles that both have payments and they're nice vehicles and they're newer vehicles, a couple of years old and a year old. And, and I was like, you know what, if I sold my vehicle, we've like lived years of our time here, like living in a small community, it's a little more manageable.

with only one vehicle. I'm like, if I sold my vehicle, I have enough equity in it where I could pay off this and this. And then doing that along with the vehicle and the insurance and the gas, you know, is going to get us like a significant amount of money, which then we could use over the next six or seven months. If we use out reallocated all of it, we could eliminate Bethany's car payment and then only leave us with our mortgage. Or we could do some of that.

and you know, maybe do another house project or two with that money we're free. But like, you know what, and I'm like, it's going to be a sacrifice kind of like when right, like you got to give something up for it to be meaningful. It's going to require a sacrifice. But that sacrifice is going to open up the ability to accomplish more important things that we want to do and or need to do. And so yeah, I just this morning went and sold my truck and here we go.

Jason Allison (16:36)
Got it.

Yeah, well, and you know, there's so much of that that is just common sense and practical. And yet it's not normal to think that way. And that's what number one, you know, in ministry world church planters that I talked to that want to launch with 500 people and a building. you know, it's like, no, that's yeah, it's not how this works. Like you you

Rob Paterson (17:24)
whole staff and yeah.

Jason Allison (17:29)
You build up to it, you and then you've got the 20 somethings that are looking for that job where they're making, you know, six figures and only work four days a week. And, know, and it's like all from home and, know, and it's like, you don't start there. Well, most of us never get there, but ⁓ but, you know, but you don't you can't just start. There's there's a process. There's there's a season of of sacrifice that leads to a season of enjoying.

Rob Paterson (17:39)
offering home.

you

Jason Allison (17:57)
the you what you gained through the sacrifice, but then there might be another season of sacrifice to get to the next thing. And so even in ministry so often we don't think that way. We want it all right now and we don't want to have to to worry about it. And so I think as I'm listening, you know, of course, I've lived this story with you for the last six plus years that you've been in that house. And, you know, there's something about taking the time to stop

and say, OK, what do we want for the next season of our life? Like, what is it that would give us some some freedom from chaos? Give us some clarity. Give us some how and you have to stop and think through that. And then you once you get that picture and say, OK, now what do we need to do to get there? And so like this reminds me, I was working with the church a few weeks ago and. You know, I there's a.

whole ministry team is there and and this church is going to require revitalization. It's been on the downside of the life cycle of a church for probably two decades. So this is not a simple, you know, we just need this, that or the other. And I told him, I said, there's no silver bullet in this. But finally, I at the very end, and I tried to be as upbeat and positive, you know, as possible. But at the very end, I just looked at the team and I told him, and there's about 15 people in the

And I said listen, here's the question. I want you to ponder before the next time I'm back I want you to think about what are you willing to sacrifice in order to be what God has called you to be and make disciples who are making disciples and Man the room got quiet because they just spent the last 90 minutes talking about all the things that were keeping them from you know doing

the mission that God had given. were things that had gotten in the way, things that had slowed them down. And they were all real. you know, I don't, I'm not saying any of it was wrong, but all of a sudden when I, when we flipped it and said, yes, but what are you willing to give up in order to do what God is calling you to do? What you know, in your heart of hearts that you need to be doing. It got real, right? Because now it's like, you you said in order for me to get some of these projects done, we're going to have to make some sacrifices.

And we may simplify part of our life, but that will add complication to other parts of our life, you know, and complexity to how we do things. You're like, I'm willing to do that because I know where I'm going. Right. I know the vision of what I want to get to. I don't think pastors and churches spend enough time actually thinking about where they want to get to the division. I feel like.

That's why they aren't making some sacrifices to get there because they don't know where there is. And when you can get clarity on where you're going, it helps you then make those decisions, right? About, hey, it's worth not having a truck for a year in order to get some things done that I wouldn't be able to do if I still have the truck. There are things that I could do with the truck that, you know, but I wouldn't be able to do that. So I have to make a decision. ⁓

Rob Paterson (21:05)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (21:06)
And I just wonder if pastors really are willing to wrestle with any of that.

Rob Paterson (21:13)
Well, and I think too, when you said, after I kind of rambled on forever and told my whole big story, you know, and you were like, you know, that makes sense. It's just not common. It made me think, well, why is that? It's because, and even when you were talking about that church that you were interacting with and you were like, what are you willing to sacrifice in order to, you know, like continue to survive, to continue to reach people, to continue to interact.

you know, with your community and redemptive in ways that connect with them, right? And the reason I suspect whether they could articulate this or not, that they like there was quite a silence, maybe some startled looks on faces was because as soon as we start talking about sacrifice, it pushes into the thing that let's be honest, for for most people in our culture, most people in our world, and this is no different inside the church, like the thing that we want most.

is comfort. Like, heaven forbid this ever cost us anything. Heaven forbid, like we ever have to take a salary cut. Heaven forbid, you know, we ever have to like, you know, someone might get laid off if we if we actually, you know, are willing to pursue what we believe God's calling us to pursue. So it's like, and again, like nobody, I don't I don't say those things in a flippant or light way.

But you know what, sometimes the more important thing literally will cost significantly. And if the people of God, whether that's in Lent or whether that's with their own lives or whether that's in their church when they're like, hey, we think God's calling us to accomplish this. How are we gonna do that? Man, we can't do that and retain our entire staff in the same way. We're not gonna be able to do that

You know, if, if individuals and families aren't willing to sacrifice, like it's all just words. It's all just words that never come to fruition. Um, and, and so, yeah, like we are, we are just too addicted to being comfortable. Um, and honestly, what does comfort, I mean, I, like being comfortable too. Like it's cold outside, right? I don't want to go outside, right? Like I like comfort, but comfort ultimately always leads.

Jason Allison (23:14)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (23:27)
to atrophy and death and sacrifice adds strength and vitality. know, like, ugh, like I want comfort, but I also don't want premature death. You know, I want strength.

Jason Allison (23:43)
Yeah, I pretty much don't like anything you just said. ⁓

Rob Paterson (23:46)
Yeah, I don't

like it either, except for the fact and this is where it's kind of cool. Once you and this is a little bit my personality. I don't want to project this onto others. I'm kind of an all or nothing person. So you could say to me, Hey, you want to hang out and do nothing? I'd be like, sure. Or you could say you want to go change the world. I'm like, I do. You know, if you're like, want to do something in the nebulous middle ground that may like, you know, we'll just like be needlessly busy and probably won't ever do much of anything. I'm like,

Jason Allison (23:58)
Yes, you are.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:15)
Never ever, ever do I ever want to do that ever. Like it's just me. I'm all or nothing. Right. So for a while I just had too many plates to be all. And now that I've decided to nuke some plates where I can sort of like was the decision like fun? Was it easy? Was my, you know, sales guy who I brought my truck back to and said, Hey, if you'll give me this much, I'll, I'll sell you my truck back. And he's like, we'll do it.

Jason Allison (24:30)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:43)
Um, you know, he said to me, he goes, are you a little bit sad? I'm like, absolutely. I am. I love my truck. Right. But I'm actually also now on the other side and immediately on the other side of that. I'm hopeful because I have created capacity to accomplish things. I did not have a path to accomplish before right now. And that's super cool. Um,

Jason Allison (24:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (25:13)
Yeah. So,

Jason Allison (25:13)
Good.

Rob Paterson (25:14)
so no, Jason, we were, we were also talking about this because in this, this thing that you and I had been a part of doing some revisioning, you know, for our region, one of the things that happened at the very first, meeting we had out in the DC area was they talked about seasons of seven and, how, it's really, really, really important, right. To understand that and

And actually there's a great article, maybe we can link in the show notes that talk about like, you know, what the, like the first seat, like if you're in an organization, if you're in a church for seven years, here's what that is. And here's what the second seven is and here's the third. And if you make it to that fourth, here's what that is too. And they talk about the, things that distinguish those things. But there's a reason people, and this is true in every area of life, talk about the seven year itch, right? You've been in something for seven years. You're like, maybe I should do something different. Right. We get that itch.

And we've got to in those sort of, and some people say in our culture, it's moving so fast. It's actually five years and other people push it out, you know, as long as 10 years, but somewhere in that five to 10 year window, you've got to, if you're going to continue on in an effective and successful way, retool and reinvigorate like we talked last week, right? So for the next season and

Jason Allison (26:28)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:30)
And so as they were talking about this and they were like, yeah, if you're in a church and you, if you haven't like, if it's been a while since you've recast your vision, if you like, since you've really tried to cast it in a fresh new way with the whole church, like there's lots and lots and lots of people, whether they were around back then or they're newer, they have no idea. Even if you say the words or put them on the wall, they have no idea. And I literally was sitting in there because I've heard all those things about seven year itch and seasons thing, but it never really.

like clicked with me. And so here's what I was thinking. 15 years ago, when I got to my church, we went through an 18 to 24 month process with the elders and then the staff to really revision and say, here's who God has put us on planet earth to be. And I'm like, I sometimes I'm like, okay, guys, we've already done this work. We know we know we have our direction. We have our mandate, like, let's go, we got to do this. Like, here's what we've said agreed to whatever.

Jason Allison (27:14)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:28)
And I'm forgetting that not everybody like went on that journey with me and or us. And even some who did and are still around, like they don't remember what happened 15 years ago. So there's this thing that lives inside my mind and heart that so many people like don't remember. And so it, what it did is it inspired me to say, I have got to talk about this more and I've got to cast this vision in fresh and compelling ways so that people

Jason Allison (27:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (27:57)
can ⁓ either be reminded or for a lot of people be told for the very, very first time. And I say this because whether it's lent, right? And you're gonna fast so that you can feast in a way that is just so much more meaningful. Whether it's a season of your life where you're like, hey, I'm gonna sacrifice, I'm gonna give something even that's really important up that's gonna create some logistical challenges in my life.

Jason Allison (27:58)
Thank

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (28:22)
I'm gonna give that up so that I can accomplish this more important thing so that I can be more generous to a kingdom cause so that I can, you whatever the things are for you, you know, you're just like, this is not like a purgatory or a life sentence. Cause here's the thing, if six months from now, Bethany and I decide this just is not working, you know what I mean? Well, we've paid this down. We've done that one project. We paid two or three things off. You know, we've cleaned our lives up.

Jason Allison (28:43)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:51)
we can go add another vehicle again. And you know what? We can go back to where we were, or we can say, hey, no, we're gonna stay here and continue to do this until we do this, this and this. And it's gonna let us do it way faster because we're making the sacrifice. But you know what? This is not a life sentence. At some point, we're gonna be able to add another vehicle, add that convenience and comfort and ease back to our lives.

but we really wanna move the needle and it's exciting to be able to do that.

Jason Allison (29:20)
Yeah.

Well, and that's where, you know, talking about every seven years, refreshing the vision, you know, some of that is honestly just stopping long enough to recast and to really reframe the vision. Because the for a church, let's be honest, the world has changed in the last seven years. You know, I would bet money that your community has changed quite a bit.

Rob Paterson (29:35)
Mm.

Jason Allison (29:47)
in the last seven years. So the vision from seven years ago on how to reach your community on all those things, it has to be updated. And so if you never stop long enough to go, hey, let's just revisit the vision. Let's make sure we're on track. Let's look seven years from now and see where we want to be and then work backwards to see, hey, what strategies, what structures, what systems

Do we need to tweak or change or add or subtract, right, in order to move forward toward what God is calling us to not today, but in seven years? And that just changes. those are things where we have tools and resources if churches wanted to explore that idea. And we're not trying to make a commercial and sell anything. I just mean there are tools and resources out there for.

you know, retooling your vision or maybe establishing a vision for the first time. You know, some church never. But the idea is, you you need to stop long enough to think ahead in order to actually move forward in that? Because when you start seeing where God has called you, there are probably some sacrifices that will need to be made to get there. I'm not saying God doesn't provide for the vision that he gives you.

Rob Paterson (30:46)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:06)
But I am saying sometimes the way he provides is by asking you to sacrifice something else. And most pastors don't like hearing that.

Rob Paterson (31:15)
well, and partly because they know if I sacrifice that sacred cow, know, Mildred and Betsy are going to murder me in my sleep within the first week, right? So like, as you're talking, I'm thinking of maybe a couple examples, and I'm not saying that these things can't work or never work anywhere. But, you know, part of what you and I have been dealing with and talking about, even in this revisioning process is a lot of times,

Jason Allison (31:25)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:42)
churches create organization, whether that's a district or a denomination, because they realize there's things they can do better together and that there are things that they all need help with. And so if they can pool their resources to create some structure, man, we can like a great example is admissions, right? Like, unless you're a really big church, the idea of sending multiple missionaries to the various parts of the world, like churches can't do that. But when a bunch of churches work together,

Jason Allison (31:50)
you

Rob Paterson (32:10)
they can do that, right? And so, hey, we need to create something that helps. And I think, you know, as that structure and organization gets passed down from person to person and generation to generation, it's like, here's what we do, here's what we do, here's what we do. And at some point, 20, 30, 40, 50 years later, it's like, why do you do that? Well, because that's what my predecessor did and that's what my predecessor, it's what we've always done. And sometimes, you know, those things aren't effective anymore.

Jason Allison (32:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:40)
So I have a few ideas like from the church world. And again, I'm not saying these things can't be effective or, you know, in some communities, in some places they might hold meaning still or might work in a unique setting. But like one of them for me, I actually came to faith by attending a summer camp, a Christian summer camp. It's where I heard the gospel, heard it number of times, but it never really made sense. I didn't know what to do. It didn't click. I heard a clear gospel presentation and I made the decision to follow Jesus.

Jason Allison (33:02)
Thank

Rob Paterson (33:08)
at a summer camp. Camping ministry was big back then. Nowadays, you and again, I know of some great camps, I know of some very effective camps, but camp sizes are smaller, maybe partly because of comfort and video games and just the ways the world works nowadays, but camps are shrinking, denominations are selling camps. And again, in some unique places, yes, are people's lives still being changed? Yes.

Is it the sink all of our time, energy, resources into its strategy that it once was? No, it is not. I've heard churches still talk about, cause you know, cause whoever remembers 50 years ago when they went to, they connected in this Awana program and people like, if we just had a better Awana program and could retool our Awana program and some people hear that and they go, I don't even know what Awana is. Or others go, ugh, like nobody wants to do that anymore, right?

Jason Allison (34:00)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (34:02)
Or another one that I always like chuckle because I again live in a very small rural area So sometimes you know someone's trying to raise some money for somebody who's had a cancer diagnosis or whatever We even did this at my church someone we were trying to raise money for a team going on a missions trip and so it's like hey for Valentine's Day come and we're gonna do a great spaghetti dinner and I'm like, okay And again, if you just want me to give a bunch of money to help someone go on a missions trip I am happy to do that ⁓

Jason Allison (34:30)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:31)
But like you giving me 27 cents of noodles and then I'm going to drop one on my shirt and get a like spaghetti stain. Like, you know what? Like there's nothing in me that wants to go eat a spaghetti dinner everywhere. And people like, but people used to like fill up the fellowship hall when we had our spaghetti dinners and we had the best spaghetti in the three county radius. And we did one and nobody showed up for the spaghetti dinner. And it's like, yeah.

the world has changed, that strategy doesn't work. And so what we do is we sit around and we complain and bemoan that what once worked doesn't work anymore instead of going, listen, I always loved when we did that. I have all these fond memories in my mind that I store in my heart. really, I would love the nostalgia of that working again, like it once did. Sometimes the sacrifice is giving that up and going, listen,

Jason Allison (35:02)
Yes.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:27)
We're willing to do stuff we don't know how to do that we've never done. It's gonna make us uncomfortable the first few times we do it. But if this could actually connect with people, build bridges, reach our community and help people know and follow Jesus, we are willing to take that step. Like sometimes that's the sacrifice.

Jason Allison (35:43)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, the sacrifices is giving up what used to work for what might work now. I mean, we can't guarantee anything, right? But but if you don't try it, you'll never know. And of course, you're going to use your brain. You're not going to do stupid things. But, know, sometimes doing something is better than doing nothing. Right. Even if that something is you don't do it.

correct the first time, here at least the body in motion tends to stay in motion, right? I tried it, it didn't work, but that doesn't mean I'm stopping. That means I'm going to retool it. Maybe I'm going to go, I've discovered something that doesn't work, so let's throw that one out. Or maybe, hey, you know what, it didn't work because we did this, or we didn't communicate it exactly right, or whatever. Let's pull back and let's try it again. Because the objective of

Rob Paterson (36:36)
Mm.

Jason Allison (36:38)
reaching people, basically showing that Jesus is worth everything, right? Jesus is the answer, is the light, is the hope. Yes, let's figure out ways to share that message to the community around us, even if the community is nothing like it was back in the 80s or the 90s, you know, because the world changed. And now we have to change with it. The gospel didn't change. God doesn't change.

Rob Paterson (36:52)
Mm.

Jason Allison (37:05)
But the way we communicate with the people around us, it has to. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:09)
Changes big time.

again, another commercial. This makes me think of the thing that I, my, my staff team went through, you know, in the last six months, the dream disciple virtual accelerator we paid and we went through that process, had all those meetings and things. We actually need to spend some, some more focused time revisiting and just really implementing that. But you know, like no church that you say, like, I don't care if they're kind of on the

Jason Allison (37:28)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (37:36)
way into the back half of their life cycle or whatever. If you would say to them, hey, like what is your mission, your vision? What are your hopes and dreams? What would you like to, like, I get, you might not think it's possible or likely or whatever, but what would you like to see? Like nobody really is answering that question. You know, we want to go like swiftly into the grave and cease to have any kind of connection or impact and just like be done. Nobody answers it that way, right? And yet,

when we cling to all of these things that maybe sometimes haven't actually worked or borne any fruit for decades, like that is essentially what we're doing. I have a guy in my mind, cause he, like when we were thinking about who our dream disciple was, one of the guys, and he's actually, you know, 93 years old. And he's like one of my favorite human beings that I've ever known.

Jason Allison (38:10)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (38:26)
And he's actually in a rehab place and he likely will be, you know, kind of for the rest of his days. So I miss, I miss seeing him every Sunday and I try to get up to see him and visit him whenever I can. But he was the guy, right? Just because like the attributes that we really came up with of man, what would our dream disciple look like? What would it look like put Edmundson? It would look like his generosity. It would look like his kindness. You know, he never has a bad word to say about anyone. Even in difficult situations, he brings

optimism and faith. you know, we're just, and again, I'm not using kind of our statements from that process, but I'm just thinking like, he was the one that really embodied that. And so, you know, this process is so great, right? Because it helps churches go through process to say, ultimately, what would we like if someone is a part of our ministry for six months, 12 months, 18 months? What would we like to see that create in them? Like, who are we trying to help them become? What is our ministries?

Jason Allison (39:05)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (39:25)
dream disciple, if you will, right? And so it's like going through a process like that was super helpful. And I feel like we're pretty good with mission and vision and strategy and things like that as a church, but it was really helpful to kind of clarify that to know if we're doing things that aren't contributing to that outcome, maybe we need to like slow or stop those things. And what things can we do instead that are gonna help to create those outcomes in people?

Jason Allison (39:26)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:51)
And so again, like maybe you're listening in pastor ministry leader and you're like our church could really benefit from a process like that We you know We'd love to to help connect you with those resources and be a part of that process for you guys so that you can be more effective if you're willing to go through the process and sacrifice some

Jason Allison (40:00)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, because sometimes you have to sell your truck in order to get things done, right? You know, and that's that's exactly a lot of churches are in that place where they they don't realize they're still hanging on to that. If they would give it up, they would free themselves. Yes, they might cause more complexity and some, you know, some some issues that you got to work through. But man, it also means you could be moving forward.

Rob Paterson (40:13)
Amen. Amen.

Jason Allison (40:34)
Well, we are so glad we got to share with you for another week. We just really, we just care about you and we want to see you thriving. And Rob mentioned the dream disciple resource and I'll try to find that article and get it linked in the show notes as well about the seasons of seven. That was a great article that they shared with us. And we would love to hear from you reach out, tell us, know, where you're at, maybe if, if we can help connect you with the resource or if we can help you process some of these things.

Man Robin, love doing that. It just makes our day when we get to see a ministry leader really just the light bulbs go off and they get excited because they they see what God is doing and how they can join him. That just makes our day when we get to see that. Well, thanks for being a part of this and we hope to talk with you again next week. Have an amazing week.