Regan VanSteenis Returns to Talk Church Governance and more!

In this episode, Rob, Jason, and guest Reagan VanSteenis discuss legal, governance, and insurance strategies for churches. Reagan shares insights on building strong church foundations, legal best practices, and practical tips for pastors to protect their ministries.

Check out STRONGCHURCHES and let them know you heard about it on The Church Talk Podcast!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
01:01 Rob's Road Trip and Connectivity Challenges
01:56 Guest Reagan VanSteenis Rejoins from Florida
03:27 Introducing the Strong Churches Movement
04:40 Legal Foundations: Governance and Board Structure
06:37 Child Safety and Insurance Considerations
07:39 Retirement Planning and Pastor Benefits
09:32 Church Resources and Financial Strategies
11:06 Tax and Retirement Savings for Pastors
13:03 Success Stories and Impact of Retirement Planning
16:15 The Strong Churches Program Details
18:35 Legal and Insurance Resources for Churches
20:18 Board Governance and Conflict Resolution
22:33 Common Legal Pitfalls in Church Setup
25:09 Balancing Pastor Authority and Board Accountability
27:47 Scriptural and Legal Governance Alignment
31:06 HR and Staff Management in Churches
33:08 Handling Church Discipline and Grace
33:34 Legal Challenges and Insurance Claims
39:19 Church Insurance Audit and Coverage Tips
41:50 Business Income and Church Continuity
42:18 Final Thoughts and Program Sign-Up Details

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:00)
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We have a we just got an amazing episode planned today, and it is like a I don't even know what to call it. It's the world premiere of Rob on the Road. And you are in a car somewhere driving north with fishing poles and such in the back. Rob, are you doing OK? Are we going to be able to keep you on the line the whole time?

Rob Paterson (00:26)
Well, that's an excellent question because I'm actually with a guy from my church, my buddy, Charlie Skinner, who, so this is really the church talk podcast with Rob, Jason and Charlie and another guest too, that I know we're going to like let that sort of simmer here for a second. But yeah, we're going up to Michigan to do some steelhead fishing on a river in Baldwin, Michigan. And, uh, we just crossed into Michigan, which is why I was having some connectivity issues because

Obviously, being from the great state of Ohio, bad things happen sometimes when you cross that border.

Jason Allison (01:02)
yeah, yeah, I noticed a darkness over you as you did that. Yeah. I hope we're not losing any of our Michigan listeners. well, I'm glad that you get to do that. And especially since I just came back from a week of playing golf in the warm Florida sun. So I'm glad you get to go freeze your behind off fishing. But, know.

Rob Paterson (01:06)
I could feel it. I could feel it in my soul.

Hahaha!

Jason Allison (01:25)
It still sounds like a ton of fun, so that'll be great. Well, this is obviously we have no idea how the connection will work exactly. We've never done this, but we knew that our guest today was such that didn't matter what was going on. We were going to record this. We and this is a second time guest, which there are only a few of those. And so we are so excited to welcome back to the podcast our friend Reagan Van Steenis.

We are so glad that you are with us. I know you're actually in Florida now too. You're not even at home.

Regan VanSteenis (01:57)
That's it. I am not in my home office in Houston. I am out on site with a client here in Miami, Florida. And yeah, it's such an honor and a pleasure to be back with you guys and even you Rob on the road.

Rob Paterson (02:09)
Hey, we're both on the road, so it makes it double special.

Jason Allison (02:09)
Yes, Rob is, Rob.

Regan VanSteenis (02:11)
Thank

Jason Allison (02:12)
Yes, very special, Rob.

Well, he's having audio problems, I think, or at least there's connection stuff, because, you know, he's in Michigan. What are going to do? But we will keep him in the loop as we go. So, Reagan, I mean, you were on a few months ago and it was amazing. And I have actually been in touch with you a couple of times with churches that I'm working with, trying to find out some things and see if they were ready to connect. And I'm just curious, like, you know.

What's going on in your world? How is life in the warm state of Texas?

Regan VanSteenis (02:43)
Yeah, it's so good. mean, it is hot in Texas. It was getting hot and it's also rodeo season. I live in Houston and we have rodeo for one month and it's the biggest thing we got going all year long. So it's a fun time. And of course, still just helping churches around the United States is to the extent I have time to and can help them. And it's been a pleasure catching up on some of the issues that you've had with some of your churches. So, yeah.

Jason Allison (02:51)
Cool.

Yeah.

Well, that is awesome. So you are and part of the reason I wanted to have you on right now, too, is you are in the middle of launching a brand new. Do I call it a like a program? I don't know. What do you call strong churches?

Regan VanSteenis (03:27)
I call it a movement, Jason. It's a movement to get America's churches and America's pastors safe, protected.

Jason Allison (03:28)
Ooh, I love it.

Rob Paterson (03:29)
Yes.

Regan VanSteenis (03:36)
built on a strong foundation. know, the Bible says that a man without walls, a man without self-controls, was like a city without walls. And the point of that is like, if you don't have walls around your city, walls around your church, walls around your pastor, the enemy could just come in and take over at any time. makes it much more vulnerable to attack. So I developed this Strong Churches Program membership movement. It's a Strong Churches movement so that our churches guys are strong, strong foundation. Obviously that foundation is the word of God.

strong wall around them of protection so that they can build strong and generationally and not worry about all the things that churches face, which we hear every day.

Rob Paterson (04:16)
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, Reagan, you know, as we think about this, and I know we talked a little bit about it last time you were on the podcast, but you know, as you think about churches, like what are some things you're seeing, you know, in churches, just from a legal vantage point, you know, things that are challenges, things that local churches need and really need to be thinking through.

Jason Allison (04:17)
Yes. Go ahead, Rob.

Regan VanSteenis (04:39)
Well, know, Rob, it's interesting because I had told Jason this before we hopped on, but the big churches and the middle sized churches and the little churches all really deal with the same things, right? It's all the same. It's just the mega churches can afford to hire a lawyer to come on site like I am here today at this wonderful client in Miami. And they can afford to have an expert sort those matters out for them.

mid-size and small churches, kind of can't do that and don't also want to have legal budgets, which I understand. I totally get it, even though I'm a lawyer. But around the country, there's really a few areas and they're all the same. The foundations, which is governance, obviously. Governance sounds like such a boring legal word, but it's governance with your board and things like that. So it's your foundations, your people, your pastor, and your congregants. It's just...

That is sort of the big areas that people have. So with governance, especially Rob, there's a lot of interesting things going on even right now, even in Houston, Texas, even across the United States. I'm dealing with these issues with so many churches across the United States.

with their boards and interesting. may have said this on the last podcast and this is far going to shock everybody. But board, is no board in the Bible. Like that doesn't, that's not in scripture. Their board, board model of leadership is not in the Bible. So it, you know, the law requires us to have that. And so it is, it's just interesting because it does create a lot of instability and disunity, I would say in the body of Christ. And we have got to solve that.

people of God, as you know, the Bible, like unity is a currency of heaven. The Lord encourages us to speak with one voice and one heart. And when we have all this fighting and strife, that is not following that command of the Lord. so anyways, governance is a big one. Obviously child safety is a huge one. know, people, hear this across the class. mean, people say this all the time. I do background checks.

Doesn't matter. Sorry, you have to do them. I shouldn't say it doesn't matter. It matters. Background checks matters tremendously, but that's not enough. And that's a huge issue for people, and they don't even realize it. Insurance, churches are so often underinsured, or they don't have the right insurance. And my friend's insurance as church leaders is like, you're very best friend. HR, so anyways, there's, and then my favorite one, the pastor.

So many churches, the pastors all have the best hearts and they're working so hard, but the pastor isn't well taken care of. We're not planning for his retirement. We're not considering things related to his life because he's just down there head down plowing, working. And those are things that need to be addressed. So those are all the things Rob does answer your question.

Jason Allison (07:19)
Yeah.

That sounds like most everything.

Rob Paterson (07:23)
Wuh

Regan VanSteenis (07:24)
Yes,

it does.

Rob Paterson (07:27)
Yeah, and I'm kind of curious. if I get a, hang on, Strong Church's movement membership, does that mean I'm going to have a great retirement? Reagan, can you guarantee that?

Regan VanSteenis (07:37)
Yes.

Well, I can't guarantee it, but if you follow the steps that I, mean, honestly, goodness, like, I don't know, there's nothing about me, but like, I feel like I can solve this problem for almost any pastor out there. it really isn't hard to solve.

You have to follow my guidelines and my steps. of course, with the strong churches movement membership, it's actually just called strong churches, but it is a movement because we want to get all of you guys, all of you pastors out there really set up strong. But, if you follow my guidelines, you should be fine by the time you get to retirement. You really should. In fact, you should retire with abundance so that you can do what the Bible says and leave an inheritance to your children's children. The Bible says a good man, a wise man does that. And I don't think, you know, so many pastors right now are

retiring with very little or unable to retire. And they're God's priests. I don't think that that's God's desire. I can tell you, I know it's not. know, God's desire is for them too, to be able to leave an inheritance to their children's children. And we can hope you do that. Very, very simply, by the way.

Jason Allison (08:40)
Yeah, the biggest thing that I yeah, the biggest thing I run into when thinking about retirement and planning and churches, you know, a couple of things. Number one, churches don't necessarily have the resources to pay their pastors well enough to, you know, also provide them the, you know, some type of retirement planning. But then and so because they don't pay them as well, it's harder to take a percentage and set it aside because you know.

Rob Paterson (08:41)
I love that.

Jason Allison (09:07)
I just don't have that much to deal with. But then also, because pastors aren't staying at churches long term, then they never really get to that point where they've got one church that's really invested in them and they and the church. I don't know, have you seen that to be an issue? The resources thing, the resources challenge, and maybe the longevity challenge as something that gets in the way of that?

Regan VanSteenis (09:33)
Yeah. So longevity, no, and I'll tell you why in a minute. And resources, that's a matter of the way we're thinking about it. Because first of all, the Bible says a man is worthy of his wage, right? So we have to think in our hearts and think in our minds that the pastor is worthy of a reasonable wage, okay? That's very, very important. And I actually will tell you that there's a spiritual principle there that like, when your pastor is paid,

a reasonable wage. I'm not talking about huge amounts of money. I'm just talking about reasonable. Like there's a blessing on that. And here's the thing guys, and I'm going to go deep, okay? Which I don't mean to go super deep on this podcast because your people are probably going be like, what is she even talking about? But for every employee in America, every employee, the employer has to pay part of the employer is responsible for to pay part of that income as tax. Okay.

Now, for ministers of the gospel, the employer doesn't have to do that. But I do think that that portion that they would otherwise pay should be preserved for the pastor's retirement. And it's not that much.

And if you put it in a simple 403b9 or even like an IRA or something, the pastor can just take that with them wherever they go. So longevity doesn't, shouldn't really come into play there. So that's an easy, I mean, there's lots of ways, but that's one off the top of my head that I try to use a lot. It's an easy way to plan for a pastor. Just think of them like a normal employee in the tax sense, and then set aside the tax that you would otherwise pay and put it

Jason Allison (10:50)
Yeah.

Regan VanSteenis (11:06)
into a retirement fund for them.

Jason Allison (11:08)
I like that. I because this is a question I get a lot, you know, people asking about fair compensation for pastors and then, you know, the retirement stuff. And, you know, I think that's a good a good idea to like you said, a mindset of, hey, here's a way we would if this if this wasn't a pastor, if it was an employee, we would have to pay the seven and three quarter. I don't remember the exact is, you know. ⁓ And so.

Regan VanSteenis (11:16)
Thank you.

Right.

So, yeah.

Jason Allison (11:35)
And since we aren't paying that rather than just roll it into his salary, you know, pretend take that, set it aside and pay it into a retirement then because most pastors I know don't save for retirement. I mean, just generally.

Regan VanSteenis (11:50)
They don't.

And honestly, Jason and Rob, you guys know, like if I made $10,000 a year and then all of a sudden I could get another $750 in my paycheck, like I'm going to take it and spend it on my family, right? Like, of course I am. And unfortunately, when you do that and then you're 65, you have nothing. So like we have to think about it a little bit differently to help, you know, to help pastors. It's almost like a forced savings. You don't have to do it that way, but you know, it's just, again, it's just one way that you can think of it a little.

bit differently and help these pastors gain long-term wealth growth, for lack of a better word. In fact, I had one worship pastor at a church recently. I was at a client, I was visiting them, and the worship pastor came to me crying because I had the church do this for all of their pastors on staff. Came to me crying. Thank you so much. My husband and I just fought.

Jason Allison (12:27)
Yeah, I love it.

Regan VanSteenis (12:43)
our dream home, they were able to access the retirement funds to buy a home. Obviously you can do that, not that I recommend it, but you can, to buy a home for their family. Otherwise, she said, we would have lived in apartments our whole lives with our two, three kids. And we're so grateful that you set this up because we were able to buy our dream home and we're so happy and we still have money for retirement and all those things. So it's great.

Rob Paterson (13:03)
Yeah. What a,

what a great thing, Reagan, even as you're saying some of these things, it what's occurring to me is that, and, know, before we started recording, you mentioned, you know, a lot of times for churches or for pastors, their legal kind of, you know, solution is I know, I know a lawyer, have a lawyer in my church. And I feel like it's the same with retirement. You know, we've talked to some people and, know, they do retirement kind of planning.

but they have no idea, you know, the unique position pastors are in. And so just sort of knowing someone who does some of these things, a lot of times isn't that helpful for churches or for people in ministry. And so I just kind of love the expertise you bring, you know, from all of your experience, like you have served the church for your career. And so that gives you just a unique perspective and unique skills and understanding.

that you can really help people in ministry. And I just love your heart to want to be able to do that.

Regan VanSteenis (14:04)
Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for saying that. As I've mentioned before, you know, my dad is a pastor. And so of course it's my origin story, right? Like I saw all the struggles he went through. I saw the struggles my mom and dad went through. And when I started to learn some of these, I went to work at a mega church. And so I was able to really learn a lot of these things. And I saw how much easier my parents life could have been if they were equipped with some of this knowledge. know, the scripture says my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge,

But then guess what it says? says, you were, says, if you reject knowledge, I'll reject you and your children. No Jesus. my goodness. So anyways, so we don't want to do that. So that, that's really where I think, you know, where like I am so passionate to help pastors because,

I know that they are out there really working so hard and who's looking out for them and who's offering them, like you said Rob, specific advice. I see churches, have pastors tell me this all the time. well have a lawyer in my church, I don't need legal advice from you. I have a lawyer in my church who's, I'm like, what kind of lawyer is he? Criminal defense lawyer or a personal injury lawyer or this. And that's wonderful and I love lawyers in churches who wanna

But the problem is is that as it relates to churches There's things in the law that are very specific for churches that unless you work specifically with churches Your your advice there is probably going to hurt the church more than more than help it. So and that happens every day

Rob Paterson (15:32)
Yeah, Reagan. So I was chuckling because I was thinking of myself. I've seen enough headlines in general and even recently to know that if the lawyer in your congregation is a criminal defense lawyer, that I actually may serve some pastors very well.

Regan VanSteenis (15:48)
no jesus please you made me run on that sadly helpless lord

Rob Paterson (15:48)
You

Jason Allison (15:53)
Yeah, I've seen that some headlines even from the state of Ohio recently that, yeah, that's really sad, but true. So speaking of legal counsel, you know, in this, I want to go back to the the Strong Churches movement that you are starting. Maybe tell us a little more about what it is and how pastors could could check it out and benefit from it.

Regan VanSteenis (16:16)
Thank you so much. Yeah, it's really a, it's an online program where it's self-learning, it's micro-learning. I know pastors do not get into ministry to do paperwork and to do a bunch of things. So I try to make it real short micro-learnings and, but.

You don't have to do the online training if you don't want to. I also am doing live monthly calls and trainings, live monthly Zoom trainings for pastors in these big areas, governance, HR, child safety, contracts are a big one that pastors...

they do so many handshake deals because they trust people and they think everybody has as much integrity as they do and they don't. Things that insurance. So every month I'm going to come and do a training. And if you want to do the online learning, it is available. That system has a ton of toolkits, checklists, making sure you're doing everything, you know, right in, in order of, in, in order and then incorrectly according to scripture first, the law second, and third best practices as it relates

to churches and so there's all of that there and you know for any pastor or executive pastor who there's a whole HR program if you want to have your HR person you know have a login or whatever well happy to do all of that so that's basically what what the program is we're trying to build a movement as as we said I am building a movement of churches that are very strong in these key core legal areas so that they can run

fast and go further faster and just feel strong and protect their reputation but importantly the reputation of our Lord Jesus. That's program Jason and Rob and I'm so excited I'm so excited for any pastor who wishes to join because again I'm just here to equip them to walk alongside them and to help build them up in the calling calling on their lives.

Jason Allison (17:55)
Yeah, what?

Rob Paterson (17:55)
man.

Jason Allison (18:10)
Yeah, well and of course, know your team is is still putting some last-minute touches on that I know, but by the time this comes out it should be live and ready to rock and we'll put of course a link in the show notes but also, i'm gonna figure out how to make sure and get a link on our our the main page of our website as well as you know, we can send it out through social media stuff as well, but that way we can at least inform pastors of hey this is

This is what's out there. Obviously, we want pastors to evaluate and, you know, what their budget looks like. Is this the time and all that they have to make those decisions? But, you know, I just run into so many pastors and church boards who have questions about stuff that is really it's something to do with legal and financial affairs. And so I, you know, I've done, you know, I've got 30 plus years in ministry. I've managed three pretty significant mergers.

You know, I've done all that stuff, but I'm still not a lawyer. You know, I'm not I didn't, you know, I will be staying at a holiday in this this week, but I don't think that's quite enough. So, you know, like it's one of those things where having access to that and of course, you know, you only need it when you need it, but then you really need it. And so having access to that early on helps.

Regan VanSteenis (19:16)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well actually, Jason, I appreciate you saying that, although I will make maybe just a little adjustment on what you said. I mean, if you get your system set up right early, then you're going to need a lawyer less, right?

It's interesting because I am a church lawyer. Okay, so I hear this all the time. Why does a church need a lawyer? That's crazy. But like they all do. And, and I may have said this already on this podcast, but you know, the big churches are dealing with the same issues that the mid and small sized churches are dealing. I did say this. And a lot of times they don't have a legal budget or can't afford it. So, you know, it really isn't so much about a lawyer or legal budget. It's really about building your church on a strong, solid foundation and making sure you're doing things right.

with integrity. did say this on last show, know, every pastor that I meet, want to do the right thing, but they often don't know what it is. And so,

you know, hopefully this will, hopefully the strong churches movement will equip your pastors and your leaders on all these issues. And as it relates to board issues, Jason, you know, as well as I do, that is such a big, we said at the beginning of this podcast, it's such a big issue. And, and if any pastor, you know, joins a strong, strong churches program and has board issues, I just want you to know, you are not alone. Like you are not alone. So many pastors have issues with their boards. And again, there, are many ways to

to solve that and we will do it.

Jason Allison (20:49)
Yeah, well, you and I have been talking over the last month about, you know, at least one church as an example that honestly, it's not it's kind of a problem with the board, but it's not that the board is being a problem. It's that the way they were structured as a brand new church, they've actually outgrown that structure. And so they're and they're ready to make the change, to shift into a better governance model. But now, you know, that's when it just gets hard. Right. Because you've got to actually start

Rob Paterson (20:49)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (21:17)
doing some changes, making those changes. And in some ways, a board person may be giving up some perceived power. And anytime you get power involved with a bunch of people, it can get messy if you don't handle it well. so that's where, I love what you said, if you start off right, you need a lawyer less and less, right? But let's be honest.

Regan VanSteenis (21:36)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (21:38)
most churches

didn't because they didn't have a lawyer involved, you know, or they were based on a model from 40 years ago that just isn't necessarily functioning as well. And so when you think of, you know, setting things on the right track and being involved, you know, how much when you say a board problem,

Like, can you think of some hypotheticals or examples without names of where a board became a problem? Because I got a feeling a lot of our pastors will identify with that. And maybe this will help them get a clearer picture of how having you or having something like this involved can help them with their board.

Regan VanSteenis (22:17)
Sure, I can give you lots of examples. have a church who said that they were having some kind of board concerns. And I said, send me your bylaws so I can read them. And lo and behold, actually, the members of the church had all the authority in the church, totally. And

They could just vote the pastor out, vote the board out, and do whatever they wanted, the members of the church. And that was a huge shock to the pastor. had no idea.

Guys, that's dangerous. I have another church who, you know, there's this very popular way to set up a church right now. And I do not by any means mean this disrespectful towards the organization that promotes this because I very much respect them and the work they do. It's amazing. But there's an organization that recommends setting up three boards, a board like your regular, your legal board, your spiritual board, and then a financial board. And I'm telling you, anybody who sets up like that is in for a mess. And I had a guy,

Jason Allison (23:06)
Yep.

Regan VanSteenis (23:13)
a friend of a friend, set up his church this way. And he said to me, well, I don't need your help because I have all these famous pastors that told me to do it this way, whatever. said, OK, well, I'm just telling you, you're going to have an issue. But you got to do what you feel the Lord has led you to do. So sure enough, 10 years later, church is big. They have a building. have money in the bank. And the board decides they don't like something the pastor preached and take a vote. They took a vote.

And unfortunately, he came to me very upset, very, you know, crying and like, what can I do? Nothing. There's nothing you can do because you delegated the, that authority, that spiritual authority to your board, which I'm not sure God did. just a couple of like recent examples of some things that have happened. another example, I had, a guy who took, he, he, became the second pastor after the founder.

And then he, you know, the board had a lot of people on it that were big donors to the church. And I told him, unless you restructure, this is going to be a problem. You are going to be restricted as the pastor in what you feel like God is calling this congregation to. And sure enough, a couple of years later, you know, he moved his whole family to a new state, did all these things. And a couple of years later, the major donors that were on the board decided that they didn't like the direction he was taking. And he got fired. His wife got fired. His son.

got fired, his daughter got fired, and they were out on their own. you know, there's ways, there's just ways, guys, simple, just wisdom, right? Just wisdom and how to protect pastors from that happening. But also it's to protect the church, too. It's to protect the congregation and Jesus, his reputation. So are those good examples for you, and Rob? I'm sure you're facing similar things.

Jason Allison (24:58)
Yeah, well, I mean

Yeah, well, I mean, usually if you've got a founding pastor that's been there for a long time, we call the next pastor a sacrificial lamb because, you know, if they don't handle that succession properly and do some things for exactly the reasons you just laid out. Right. And I've been part of churches where the board is made up of some major donors who are more about their name than about the church or, you know, even they start talking about legacy building.

Regan VanSteenis (25:10)
Right.

Rob Paterson (25:25)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (25:30)
And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, we're kingdom building. We're not legacy building. And so that that's where you have to challenge some of those. So as you're thinking, because here's I hear it also the other side of that is the pastor needs accountability. You know, and but I'm also hearing you saying the board needs accountability. How do you balance those two in a structure that doesn't end up kind of looking like our

Regan VanSteenis (25:33)
He mad. He mad.

Jason Allison (25:57)
federal government that just can't get anything done. You know, there's a balance of powers, right? But it doesn't always work well in real life. How do you what do you suggest for the church? Like, what's a balance of those two things?

Regan VanSteenis (26:10)
No, that's a great question actually. And thank you, Jason, for asking it. You your bylaws, I always say this, like there's the Bible. And obviously that is our foundational document. But the next one is your bylaws. And your bylaws, and you know, most pastors don't even know what they're in their bylaws. I had a pastor recently, maybe last year, say, hey, we want to do a review of our bylaws and sent them to me. They were 125 pages long. I said, I can promise you, you don't know what's in here and you're not doing it.

And then other churches, I'm like, have you considered scripture as it relates to your bylaws and how you're structured? Oh no, we never considered that. We only just did like what our friends said or like what the Texas organizations code said or whatever it is, right? So to answer your question, really have to figure out in your church and in your instance, what those two look like in your scriptural belief. And so, the pastor actually has a

accountability that's scarier than the board and it's the Lord. Right. And he is going to be judged double, the Bible says. so integrity and the fear of the Lord, I think, is the biggest checkmate on a pastor. And if he doesn't have that, my friends, you probably should think about going to a different church because you are who you hang around, right? Like you don't want to be under a leadership that doesn't have the fear of God. Like that's so important because that is the biggest checkmate.

But then as it relates to the board, again, like inner bylaws, can outline exactly what their authority is and where it lands.

as it relates to the pastor and then the pastor as it relates to the board. A lot of times, and I think this is really wise, bylaws will say when it comes to spiritual matters, the pastor, the pastors, know, he is in charge of that. When it comes to corporate matters, maybe then they have a quorum with, you know, majority vote or whatever. And then of course, a lot of times bylaws have in their, their,

Well, I shouldn't say a lot when I write them. They have very, very specific things as it relates to what the work can do as it relates to the pastor, like how they can let them go and under what circumstances. And that's, think, really, really important. Does that answer your question?

Jason Allison (28:29)
That's good.

Yes, yeah. I think it's a little bit, know, because Rob and I work in within an organization or a network that is more Baptist-y in the polity, which means there's a congregational aspect to the churches, right? To where I know part of our thing is to be part of this network. The congregation has to have a say in something. Now, that's like as clear as we get.

You know, it's not it's not a congregationally run church because I don't think those ever work well once you get past, you know, 50 people. But, you know, it does say that the congregation needs to be involved in the decision making and that there should be some form of leadership team. Some churches call it a board, some elders, some deacons, some. That's fine. I don't care what you call it. But that that provides.

Regan VanSteenis (29:15)
Sure.

Jason Allison (29:17)
you know, some I'd say accountability to the pastor, but maybe it's more of a team that has mutual accountability that understands, which I think that's what Paul talks about when he talks about a husband and wife and that mutual submission one to another. That's kind of, think, a picture of what a board and a pastor and a staff can look like. How much authority do you see in giving the pastor when it comes to running the staff?

And I'm talking more HR here, right? I know. But like when you think about a pastor and the team that he has assembled, maybe it's three people, maybe it's one, maybe it's includes volunteers that are kind of treated as staff. Like how much does the board need to have say in that and how much can they empower the pastor to run that side of the ministry?

Regan VanSteenis (30:05)
Yeah, I think they can empower him 100 % to run it the way that he feels like the Lord is leading him. Again, that's, know, depending on how your church believes and how they think governance is.

You know, the pastor, I personally, it's my personal opinion and the best renter does I see like the pastor's empowered to do what he needs to do. And if they don't like it, the board can jump in and, you know, ask questions. And of course, challenge, of course, like we want pastors that are able to be challenged, but what

Like why would a board be, and I'm asking you this legitimately and sincerely, like if a pastor wants to pick an HR director, say, or a volunteer HR director, like why would the board decide on that? Because like the pastor is the one who has to work with this person all the time, and this HR director needs to understand the heart of the pastor, and this HR director needs to understand the kind of people the pastor works good with. Like to me, that doesn't seem like a board needs to be involved in that at all, but.

But maybe they do in some instances.

Rob Paterson (31:07)
Yeah. And Reagan, as you say that, I think, you know, by my constitution and bylaws at my church, I have complete, you know, authority to hire and fire people whenever I want at will. But I, I have never done that without, you know, prayer and conversation with my elders. So, so do I need that? No. But wisdom dictates that because these people love me, love Jesus, love our church.

we're going to have a conversation and we're going to make sure that this is something we all go, yeah, this is the right call here, you know, before we just do something quickly that's a mistake.

Regan VanSteenis (31:49)
Rob, you know what I hear you saying? Integrity in the fear of the Lord. Totally. And HR is a really interesting one, because so many people, it's really like so many churches when somebody gets let go, it's really unfortunate and they leave the church and everyone's mad and their friends go this way. And it really doesn't have to be that way. mean, you know, there are ways to help.

Rob Paterson (31:52)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Regan VanSteenis (32:12)
A lot of times pastors are, guys pastors are expected to be good at everything, right? Like kissing babies, going to the hospital, preaching on Sundays. You have to also be an amazing communicator. You also have to be a great CEO. You have to be all these things. And it's really unfair to pastors because they don't teach all those other things in seminary, right? They don't teach them. And pastors are very busy and you know, maybe you need to let someone go Rob and you just, not, you you ask the board, everybody agrees and you know.

We let them go because they're bothering us and they're in our way or whatever. And I get that. And that many churches that I've gone through my whole life, that's the way it was. But I have learned over the years that there are ways to handle that so that people stay in the church so they don't leave your congregation. And that really, I think, is beautiful, actually. It's unity in the body of Christ, which I really like. It doesn't happen all the time, but you can work with people in a way that offers grace.

and discipline at the same time and allows them to stay within your church.

Rob Paterson (33:09)
Amen. That's, that's so good. Reagan. I, I'm going to say something. have a question, ⁓ but it's, and it's an important question, but it might sound boring. So I'm going to begin by, by saying something that's going to sound like I'm getting ready to confess. Okay. So I have been sued twice in my life. I know it sounds crazy. The first, and they're both, they, they both were okay. So the first one.

Regan VanSteenis (33:14)
Sure.

Rob Paterson (33:35)
people thought that the real estate developer I'd bought a piece of property from, created a fictitious person named Rob Patterson. So they were, they, so I got, so I just made an appointment with the lawyer and then it was immediately, I wasn't being sued anymore because I was a real human. the second one was we actually had a children's choir at our church and the organization that, you know, did the child sponsorship.

Jason Allison (33:56)
you

Rob Paterson (33:59)
used like a 30 second clip in their video that was on our website that was music that was not copyright or was copyright protected. And it was some lawyer out of New York City who was finding these things and just shaking churches down. And for weeks, like we were like, we were reaching out, we were like in good faith having conversations and it was obvious it was just a shake down and

since we weren't in New York and like, they were just going to like file this and, and, know, when, and it occurred to me, wait a minute, this is probably something that our, our insurance covers. So we reached out to our, our provider and they're like, absolutely. And I was like, immediately it was like, you know, and you said this already, so many churches just are under insured. have not, you know,

covered themselves in this way. with all that in mind, I'm wondering, can you tell us a little bit about what the church insurance audit sheet is?

Regan VanSteenis (35:00)
Yeah, thank you for asking Rob. It's so interesting and I'm proud of you for calling your insurance. know, insurance, said this a little bit ago, insurance is a pastor's best friend because when something goes wrong, guys, if you have the right insurance, they will hire you a lawyer, they will negotiate a settlement, they will fight it in court and they will pay whatever damages you're required to pay. And here's the beautiful thing about it. It gets the pastor out of the argument, lets him go back to focusing on

church and the people and let the insurance deal with that that side of the house, right? It keeps you especially if somebody gets injured at your church where you feel terrible, of course, and you want to help them and they're asking, can you pay my medical bills? And can you do this? We have wonderful insurance to cover that. Let us pray with you and your family. Let us come visit you in the hospital. It allows the pastor to stay in the position of pastor and the business side of the house to get handled by the very insurance, which is what we pay them for.

And so I love insurance for pastors. I love insurance for churches. And so what I have found out there is a lot of churches though don't have quite the right insurance and they're under-insured in some areas. One of the biggest one is child sexual abuse and molestation. So a lot of times pastors will go out there and buy general liability insurance and they think it covers that. And a lot of times your policies will have an exclusion for this. And I had a church last year say, oh yeah, they had an issue.

And they said, we have insurance. And I said, okay, great. Send me the policy. And I wasn't surprised lo and behold, they didn't have that insurance. was excluded from their policy. So that's a really big one, but there's lots of other areas that I like for churches to have that are not expensive. Like there's this thing called no fault med pay, which if somebody gets injured in your church, your insurance will just pay it.

without, will pay medical expenses without assigning fault, which again is amazing. It doesn't raise your premiums, of course, unless you're using it 14 times a month. But like, again, if someone gets injured, allows the church pays through their insurance medical expenses and you can stay in the position of church and there's no arguments, there's no fighting, there's no taking it out of the church's budget, money to pay for the ball. So there's that.

P.L. Property, obviously. Media liability is a big one with churches right now, like for that copyright issue you mentioned. Everybody's going online. Everybody's on YouTube. Everybody is streaming. So you do have to have some specific music licenses in place and some other things. And so there's that type of insurance. There's D &O insurance, which protects your board if they make bad decisions. And the congregants, especially Jason and your type of...

churches that have a lot of congregate involvement. So that's important. So yeah, what I like to do is basically, you know, I have a checklist and it goes through and we check and make sure you have everything that you should have. And then we'll send you back a report card, essentially saying you may want to look into these other things. And of course, I can go to any church with great church specific brokers that could help. Again, I just want to say a lot of times churches go online and they kind of like Google and they go church mutual or whatever and try to do it themselves. Guys get a broker.

you're not experts and I'm not, don't mean that disrespectfully, but pastors, you're not experts in insurance. So like get a broker that understands churches and understands the risks. I actually have a big client who was buying their insurance through like, like a home, like a homeowner, like like farmers or something. I'm like, guys, what is happening? Like, what is happening? Because you know, the pastor was used to this guy, but it was, it was like a personal lines broker.

not a church broker. so again, will, once I do your audit, happy to connect the pastor with a good broker that can help churches specifically.

Jason Allison (38:47)
That's really helpful. I I literally had this conversation with the board two months ago. They're getting ready for budget talks, you know, and they said, hey, we probably ought to look at our insurance because we have it in a couple of years. And who do we go to to figure out if we have the right and the best insurance? like this is I mean, this is literally the questions I'm getting that you are saying, you know, strong churches. It it.

answers those or at least gives you tools right to understand.

Regan VanSteenis (39:19)
It does. Can I give your listeners another big tip? This is like one of my secret ninja like tips. I'm serious. Okay. So on your, on your property, property coverage, you will have, what's called business income insurance, okay. Or business interruption insurance. And that policy basically says that if you have to shut your business down for whatever reason, your insurance will still pay you the income that it lost during the shutdown.

Rob Paterson (39:26)
⁓

Regan VanSteenis (39:47)
So, but it's under specific circumstances. So let's say there was like a snowstorm in Ohio, okay, or whatever, and you had to shut down the church because the roads were closed or the church got damaged or something like that. Your business income insurance, if you have to close for a Sunday, it's the only day of the week that we're collecting offerings, guys, that business income insurance will pay you for that lost income, your offerings.

It's interesting because a lot of times the insurance will say you have to be closed for a certain number of days before they'll pay because you can ask your insurance company to make it none. None. Make it no days. So if a snowstorm happened on Saturday night and you have to close on Sunday, you can get your offering money back. I'm sorry, it's amazing. It's amazing.

Jason Allison (40:34)
Wow.

Regan VanSteenis (40:35)
I have over my lifetime of my career, literally gotten millions of dollars back from my clients because I always set their insurance up with business income and a zero day waiting period and literally recovered millions of dollars. And I would say for medium to small sized churches is probably even more important because larger churches a lot of times can sustain a closed Sunday, but medium to small churches cannot. So it's, it's really like a big ninja trick.

Jason Allison (41:00)
love it. Yeah, of course. And with so many people going to online giving that sometimes offsets that. But I know a ton of churches that Sunday morning is when they collect the majority of their income. And so it is an issue.

Regan VanSteenis (41:16)
Well, it is, but Jason, even for online giving, a lot of the times that is driven by what's happening in the service on Sunday, right? And also a lot of times online giving is done in church when people are sitting in church. And so you're right, there's a little bit of a shift there, but it's still, I think, very, very

helpful for churches, especially this like big snowstorm we had that shut everything down recently. It's really helped a lot of my clients.

Jason Allison (41:44)
Well, in Ohio this year, both of the major snow storms happened Saturday night into Sunday morning. And you can't predict that. You can't do anything about it. I mean, a couple of churches on the East Coast tried to change their service to Friday night or Saturday night. But that's not going to get 100 % attendance. It just isn't.

Regan VanSteenis (41:51)
Thanks, Lord.

Absolutely, and we only have 52 weeks out of the year. So, right, so you miss one of the 52 or two of the 52 and that's painful from a physical standpoint for a of churches.

Jason Allison (42:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, hey, we are just about out of time and I do want to respect your time. I love chatting with you. This is so much fun. I'm such a nerd.

Regan VanSteenis (42:28)
It's so much fun

to do and I hope that insurance tip wasn't too deep for everybody. But insurance tips will show you how to do it really, really easy. It's a one question to your broker and it makes it super simple.

Jason Allison (42:33)
No, I love that.

Yes

Rob Paterson (42:40)
Yeah, that's so good. Reagan, I just want to ask something super simple and Jason, I think we need to get Reagan scheduled and back on because I do want to talk about the, some of the other questions that you had about, just pastor compensation and how to structure that. And, and, know, cause I think that would really serve our pastors, our churches, so well, if there was a more robust, approach to that.

But Reagan, like for someone like me, if I'm like, man, I want to become part of the strong churches movement. What does that look like? Like how would one of our listeners like sign up for that?

Regan VanSteenis (43:15)
Thank you for asking. You I always say, Robin, I've told my team, I don't want any church not to get the good biblical and legal advice for.

because they don't have the finances, right? And so that's another reason why I put together this program. You guys, I I'm gonna send you a link after we're done here, where you, your group, your people, whoever's listening to this can click the link and we give you a 14 day free trial. So you will be able to go in there, see the resources that are in there, but more importantly, during that 14 days, hop on a live call, a live training. You can even submit questions beforehand and then, and see if you enjoy the program. And that's, that's.

trying to make it super simple for you guys. For all those pastors out there listening, we'd love to have you join us.

Rob Paterson (43:58)
Awesome.

Jason Allison (43:58)
I love it. Well, Reagan, thank you for coming back on and just for your heart for ministry, for the church, as Rob said earlier, we just really appreciate that and have enjoyed having you on. We will definitely have you back. I'm still trying to figure out, so Rob and I need an excuse to be in Houston so that we can hang out with you.

Regan VanSteenis (44:17)
Yes,

that's it. Come anytime. I don't know if we have good fishing or good golf, but I'm sure we can find you guys some. So somewhere.

Jason Allison (44:24)
Yeah, I'm not worried a bit. ⁓

Rob Paterson (44:28)
you

Jason Allison (44:30)
well, to all of our listeners, we will have all those links available ASAP in the the show notes as well as on the website. And I hope you'll take full advantage of this amazing offer. We thank you listeners and we are cheering for you. And we can't wait to hear from you. Send us an email at Jason at Church Talk Project dot com or Rob at.

churchtalkproject.com and we would love to hear what's going on and how we can serve you better. Have an amazing week and we'll talk to you soon.