Movement Ready Church with Vick Green

Moving from Activity to Discipleship: Insights from Vic Green and Robbie GallatyIn this episode, Jason and Rob discuss the essential nature of authentic discipleship in the church, emphasizing that activity does not automatically lead to transformation. Our guests, Vic Green, CEO of Replicate Ministries, and Robby Gallaty, pioneer in discipleship movement, share practical insights to help churches foster genuine spiritual growth and movement.

Key topics:

• The myths that hinder effective discipleship in churches, including the "equipping myth" and "engagement myth"
• Why measuring activity (attendance, programs) isn't enough for true discipleship
• The importance of defining a "dream disciple" tailored to your church's context
• How local culture, community, and leadership convictions shape disciple-making
• Jesus’ model of personalized, relational discipleship versus mass activity
• The pace and patience required for sustainable movement and spiritual renewal
• Practical steps to move beyond passive teaching to active training for multiplication
• The significance of personal revival and leadership renewal in cultivating a disciple-making culture

Resources & Links:

• Movement Ready Church by Vic Green & Robbie Gallaty
• Replicate Ministries
• Robbie Gallaty

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We are so glad that you took a few minutes to listen today. We are excited. We've got a great guest today. We've got some amazing conversation ahead. Rob, man, how are you doing today?

Rob Paterson (00:16)
You know what, it is a really good day and I have a cool story to tell you. you know, I mean, gosh, you you and I have been around the church and in ministry forever, right? And so this kind of thing happens from time to time, but honestly, every time I hear somebody else tell a story like this, it makes me super jealous if I'm being just completely honest. But so my wife and I were invited out for dinner this weekend, this past weekend, and we had dinner with this couple.

who doesn't go to our church but knows about our church is connected in other ways maybe to our ministry and knows about just the impact we've had in people's lives. And so we sit down for dinner with this couple, you know, they're buying dinner at this really, really nice place, which is also a good gift. And at some point during the meal, he opens his wallet and he pulls out a check for $40,000.

And he says, we want, know you're trying to, you know, plant churches. know you, you're making a big difference in people's lives. You're trying to do some stuff around your church. We want to give this money as a matching thing and we want to encourage your people to match it. And, and you know what? We'd love to be able to do more of this if God opens the door for it in the future. And so it was just like, you know, a very, very fun thing. so my Bethany and I are talking about this on the way home from dinner and we're like,

You know what, is that me? Is that the biggest checks on it? Or was it, know, like we're having that conversation. And then here's where my mind went. My mind went, well, I know a guy who was given a hundred thousand dollar check a couple of years ago and then by someone else was given a million dollar check. And, and, so instantly, right, we do this thing where we start comparing. And then here's what God reminded me of. He reminded me that that pastor who was given those things actually is a pastor because he and I had lunch one day.

And there was a transition in his church that was a very small church at the time. I'm like, dude, if you don't like basically step in and lead this church, you don't have to, but if you don't do this, and I think you could, and maybe you should at least pray about it. Like this church won't exist anymore. And he stepped in. He's now been in ministry for the better part of a decade. God is blessing that and using him. And then he brought my mind to this, this other guy who actually is a part of the team that's over multiplication for an entire denomination.

who got connected initially because Bethany and I were church planning assessors and someone said, hey, who would be good assessors? And I'm like this guy and his wife. And then they came and that was again, there were a lot of things that happened after that. Like we weren't like the reason, know, or any of those things, but we got to play this really small, unique part. And I started thinking about like all those things in my life where God used me.

conversation and introduction to make some really cool kingdom things happen. The problem with all of those things, right, is we all like to be that actor that's standing at the center of the stage, as opposed to just sort of playing a little bit role that leads to someone else's greatness. And as we've all heard, like this has been floating around forever, you know, in ministry work, we've just got to get okay with our fruit growing on other people's trees.

Jason Allison (03:25)
Mmm.

Rob Paterson (03:25)
You know,

like it can't, it can't just be all about us. And Jason, this is why I'm like super excited about our guests today because a few months ago, I didn't even know Vic green. Like I'd never heard the name before. And then it was so cool because you know, like we were reached out to by whatever an agent or a person, Hey, here's someone you need to have on your podcast. And Jason, you said to me, Hey man, this guy's like the CEO of this organization that Robbie Gallaty started. And that's so cool.

Jason Allison (03:29)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:55)
my gosh, on our podcast, like you were kind of like doing that little junior high school girl excitement thing. And I'm like, I don't know who any of those like things are people are. And then it was the same week where a friend of ours, Lee Stevenson sent me a text and said, Hey, my friend, Vic Green, and you need to know each other and sent me his info. And I'm just like, wait a minute, is that the same? Like, you know, it was just so cool. And then even a couple of weeks ago at exponential when it

Vick Green (04:03)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (04:21)
when I showed up at a breakout that Vic was doing. know, Vic, mean, you know, you and I had seen each other on screens or talked to each other on phones, but man, just to see in that room full of ministry people, you know, just the value in the heart that you brought to say, hey, if I can help equip you so that your ministry is better and more effective, like I could just see that all over you, man. Like, I could tell that your life, you you exist so that you can see kingdom fruit.

Vick Green (04:29)
Mm-hmm.

I appreciate it.

Rob Paterson (04:50)
on other people's trees and I just love that about you. So hey, Vic Green, welcome to the Church Talk podcast.

Vick Green (04:52)
I appreciate it.

Great to see you with you guys. Thank you so much for the intro. I mean, that was awesome, And so great to be here and excited for the conversation.

Jason Allison (05:06)
Yeah. Well, hey, let's, let's just jump in and maybe start out for the sake of our listeners who, like Rob are clueless about who you are and you know what, what that means. But I'm, know, give us the highlights, the, the, the, is Vic Green, your, story.

Vick Green (05:15)
You

Yeah.

Yeah. So Vic Green, I'm in the North Nashville area now, originally from Louisiana. Uh, I think you mentioned something about replicate ministries CEO. Yes, that's true. And also just, uh, right now, uh, big in football season and soccer season with my kiddos. And so, uh, we're, uh, in the national area, my wife, Sophie and I have been married for 12 years now, and then we have three kiddos. Uh, so.

Rob Paterson (05:42)
Mmm.

Vick Green (05:51)
Barrett is seven, Lena is about to be six, and Allie Sage is two. So that is kind of the home front, unbelievable family there. And then for my vocation, I lead replicate ministries. was a ministry started in 2008 by Robbie Gallaty. And I stepped in in 2020 as our CEO.

And we exist to help churches activate their unique disciple making movements. And so this idea of discipleship and multiplication, very much like a buzzword talked a lot about in the church now and so many places, we were, Robbie, just an unbelievable leader and visionary really started working in the church, like his own church. He's a lead pastor now. And as he was a lead pastor, his churches, he started to find some principles.

He started Replicate Ministries in 2008. And so we've been figuring out multiplication and discipleship ever since. And so now we get to walk alongside churches and help them figure out how to get the disciplining culture, the vision and strategy. And a lot of ways that we got there was just, paid a lot of the dumb tax for you. And so it's been a fun journey. I was in Louisiana as a recipient for years.

from replicate. And so now to be on the other side and getting to work with churches each week around it is, man, it's awesome.

Rob Paterson (07:14)
Yeah, man, that is so cool. And I love in the brand new book, which is so exciting. Jason and I have had it now for a while and read through it. I kind of love that opening story, right? Because when Robbie went to Long Hollow, he talks about, you know, he was known as the discipleship guy and he was going to a church that was really great at evangelism and reaching people.

Vick Green (07:30)
Hehehe.

Rob Paterson (07:42)
And so they thought this is going to be perfect, right? We'll have both sides of the coin and all this stuff. And then it wasn't working. And for me, maybe one of the most significant and just a compelling way parts of the, of the book was just this idea that when people would interview him after, like even in COVID, people would, would like make these voyages, journeys kind of pilgrimages to the church to like, you know,

Vick Green (07:44)
All right.

you

you

Mm-hmm

Rob Paterson (08:06)
come to Jesus and start this sort of discipleship journey. And people were asking him, hey, why would God send people like this to the discipleship guy? And it's like, well, maybe because I don't presume to know what God would say, but maybe it's because he knew that we would like do something with them afterwards. We would actually help them on this journey, which just so cool. I love for replicate in the book, everything you guys are about, like this discipleship.

Vick Green (08:29)
you

Rob Paterson (08:34)
Bullseye ⁓ So cool, so they talked a little bit about that because I think you know That's one thing that maybe everybody in the church should perhaps have the most clarity on right? Like this is what Jesus said like we're to do we're supposed to make disciples and yet Jason and I we lead this group of pastors kind of where we are and we meet four times a year and We did a thing probably five or six years ago where we talked for a day about discipleship

Vick Green (08:36)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:03)
And it

was insane because there's hundreds of years of ministry experience and there was so much sort fogginess about what discipleship was and how to accomplish it. Can you talk a little bit about that? Why is it such a difficult thing for the church to figure out?

Vick Green (09:07)
you

Yeah.

Yeah, think, I mean, I've seen several different statistics, but you have really around 60 % or so, can be, sometimes it's up to like 70 % of pastors who have never been intentionally discipled. And so like, and when we ask, even in the room with all disciple making tribe, you ask that, you're going to, we see that statistic hold pretty true. People say, I didn't receive that. I didn't see that.

Jason Allison (09:30)
you

Vick Green (09:43)
And now what they did see is a version of how they have run church and setting up programs, preaching sermons. And even then you went into seminary where it was set up in a classroom setting with lectures. And it's just really easy to go through ministry and to not experience discipleship. And if you haven't been a recipient of it, it's really hard to reproduce it. Discipleship as we know is something that's caught more than it's taught.

Jason Allison (09:59)
and

Vick Green (10:11)
And so it's just one of those things where if that example wasn't given to you to then to lead your church to do it, it becomes a huge gap. It becomes a difficulty. And so if you're not personally doing it in your life, you're not modeling it and setting it as the priority for your church to do it. Also, if you have seen church done in a way that maybe is great with the sermons and programs, but not actually fostering life on life discipleship, like

Rob Paterson (10:11)
Thanks

Yeah.

Vick Green (10:36)
it's easy for that to then be the picture of what success looks like. And that's actually one of the biggest things that we look at is like often we have measured what is easiest in ministry and instead of what is best. And so we have gotten caught up in, okay, we get people to attend a worship service and we get them in groups and then we get them serving. And while that is definitely a part of the picture, it's not the full picture. And so I think in a lot of ways, just as the lack of,

Jason Allison (10:40)
Mm-hmm.

Vick Green (11:04)
being discipled in one place, but then too, I think there is pictures of church success that have been divorced from the methods that Jesus actually used 2000 years ago.

Jason Allison (11:15)
Yeah, so you're right. We measure often what's easiest to measure, not what matters. may dive a little deeper into that. Like, what is it that we measure that, you know, there's lots of things that are easy. Dive into that. What do you mean by that?

Vick Green (11:29)
Yeah.

I think just the conversations that we have, mean, anytime as pastors, we all get together, one of the top questions is going to be, what are you running? You know, in some version, like, tell us, and I don't think that question's wrong. I think that gives us great context. But when it becomes to be the defining quality of, man, is this church succeeding? Is it healthy? I think it's telling an incomplete picture because ultimately,

Rob Paterson (11:56)
Mm.

Vick Green (11:58)
The health of the church, don't believe is count, like Jesus, when he measures the health of the church, it isn't as he counts the people in it. I believe he weighs them. The idea of man, what is the depth of the disciples that we're creating? Jesus didn't call us to go make converts. He didn't call us to make program attendees. He called us to make disciples. And so often what we do though, is we settle, and I think in some ways, we can kind of, we go to what's easiest of,

Rob Paterson (12:07)
Mm.

Vick Green (12:26)
How many people are in your church? What's your budget? What's the buildings look like? Because it's measurable. We can know for certainty. And I think in some ways, pastors, we can hide behind, who can know the heart? Only God can know the heart. And I think that's a, sometimes we use that as almost a passive casting of ownership of how do we steward our congregation.

And I think what we have to do is to look and say, okay, no, we can't know to the same level of precision, you know, has their life been changed? What's their heart like? But there's clear measurements that we can have of are they living a life of a mature disciple? Are they reading their Bible? Are they having a life of prayer? Are they in life changing relationships? Are they sharing their faith? Are they making other disciples?

Rob Paterson (12:50)
Mmm.

Vick Green (13:17)
And what happens is when we just measure, they active in our programming? It's a great starting line, but it's a terrible finish line. We have to go beyond.

Rob Paterson (13:26)
Yeah.

Hmm. You know, even as you say that it makes me think Jason and I have a very personal example of this is probably a better part of 10 years ago, where we were both asked to lead breakouts at this like national converge thing. You know, kind of facilitating conversation with pastors and churches of different sizes. And the guy who asked this didn't really know either of us at the time. But my church, you know, was bigger.

And, and so like, were pretty excited about having me. And then when the guy who had asked Jason found out that the church that he had planted was actually a really small church and didn't have that many people there on a weekend, he kind of, and we're all good friends and he, I'm sure he would like put his head in his hand and shake his head at this, but he kind of uninvited Jason from leading. Cause it's like, well, you don't, you don't have a big enough church. He didn't base it on.

Vick Green (14:13)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (14:17)
kind of the gifts and qualities that God had placed in Jason. He didn't base it on the life change that had and was taking place in his church. He didn't base it on the fact, and I know this because I walked down the street in that community with Jason, that man, like everybody in that community knew him because he had and was discipling business owners and just community members. Like Jason's life was making a much bigger and more significant difference than his Sunday morning attendance showed. ⁓

Vick Green (14:41)
Mm.

All right.

Rob Paterson (14:47)
Yeah, we just, you know, we get things so messed up, I think, especially in our culture with all the things that kind of pull us around.

Vick Green (14:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (14:56)
You embarrassed me, Rob. I know I'm all a flutter.

Vick Green (14:56)
Well, Well, I think for us, one of the places where we really realized it and we share this in the book, we were looking at our church and we were saying, hey, who is the most how well are people maturing?

Rob Paterson (14:58)
Yeah.

Vick Green (15:14)
And we kind of wanted to look at the scoreboard of just like, all right, you know, surely our elders and our leaders, like, as we look at our scoreboard for success here, surely they're up at the top. So we just said like, okay, program attendance using that as the metric. And what happened is I looked at our, we looked at our most active people are programming and it was a guy named Scotty. And so Scotty was at every Sunday service. He was at.

He was in a small group. He was volunteering. He came to the prayer gatherings He had listened to like every sermon and so Scotty was the most active person in our church The problem was when Scotty introduces himself. He says hi, my name is Scotty and I'm an atheist

And in that moment, we just were like, wait a second, the person who's supposed to be the most mature in our congregation is an atheist. And first off, super glad that an atheist can be that comfortable in our community and feel accepted and can hear the gospel message. And if that is what we say is the most mature person in our church, we have the wrong scoreboard. And so for us, what we had done, we had fallen into, we just call it the engagement myth.

Rob Paterson (16:20)
Mmm

Vick Green (16:26)
It was the belief that activity equals transformation. The belief that activity equals transformation. And we just kept measuring program activity because it's concrete and it's easy to measure. And that's what businesses do. But it's a myth. It correlates with transformation. It can lead to transformation, but it's not the same. On the flip side of that, middle of the pack were some of our elders.

because they weren't in the building every time, because they were actually busy making disciples in their community so much so that they couldn't make it to everything the church did, and that was okay. And so it's just coming back to that idea, we measure what's easiest, but we don't measure what's best. And just being off a slight degree on how you measure success makes a huge difference in what you lead.

Rob Paterson (17:16)
You know, part of your process, and I think this kind of leads perfectly because sometimes, you know, if you just ask someone generally, hey, what are you looking for? They might say people to show up at our stuff, people to serve, people to give, right? Even though those people could do all those things and still not have any meaningful faith that guides or changes their life. And so, you know, part of your process of a church would work with replicate would be, you know, kind of helping a church

Jason Allison (17:16)
Mm.

Vick Green (17:28)
Yeah.

Sorry.

Rob Paterson (17:44)
clarify what a dream disciple would look like for them in their context. Talk a little bit about that and like why is it important for a church to think about that more locally and specifically as opposed to kind of a general, this is what the Bible definition is and this is kind of all we're doing. Why does that like dream disciple for you in your context really matter?

Vick Green (17:47)
That's right.

Yeah,

so good. I went to exponential a couple of years ago and we were doing all our breakouts and it was all around discipleship. I feel like probably 25 % of those breakouts were people saying you need a definition of a disciple. And it's like everyone knows it. Funny, still most churches don't have it. But everyone knows like, hey, you've got to start with the end in mind.

And I mean, you can't develop what you don't define. mean, like there's so many different ways that I've heard it said by so many people. Everyone knows you've got to have a picture of a disciple. And I think it's important to start there. It's important to get a definition. It's a start in scripture. Absolutely. But again, it's a good starting line, but it's a poor finish line. Because often, the reason people aren't stepping into something or they aren't

acting on what you're telling them, it isn't up here at the mind, it's in the heart. And so like, how do you speak disciple making in a way that doesn't just engage intellectually, but it actually hits emotionally? How do you communicate? mean, Jesus didn't just tell people, hey, here's a different way. He always showed them, hey, here's a better way. There was a way in which Jesus spoke that to the people would say, I want that for my life.

And yes, we know that all the things that you want for your life are found in Jesus. We know that. But at the start of your faith journey, you don't. We assume so quickly that like, yeah, you know following Jesus and being fully surrendered is totally what you should do. And so the reason we really push of that idea of a dream disciple is how do you not just tell people what you want from them, but how do you tell them what you want for them?

And how can you communicate it in a way that I look and say, man, that's what I've been looking for in my life. That's gonna help me be a better dad. That's gonna help me be a better spouse. To just, I actually just on our podcast, we have a making disciples podcast and I interviewed a good friend of mine, Dave Learned from Harvest Bible Chapel. And so many of us know Harvest Bible story and the journey they've been on.

Well, they, after a really difficult season, and they are kind of rebounding from a leadership failure and then just the church being a really just difficult spot, they start to prioritize discipleship as they begin to get back into it. The first place that we started was, are the disciples that you're developing? And the leadership team has a very specific, like, it was very precise. It was very biblically informed, but it was very technical.

And it was very generic. And we just said, hey, let's look at how could we speak this in a way that'll land with your people. And the team landed, I think this is really powerful. used, think of the agrarian theme, think of Psalms one here, but also if you know Harvest Bible Chapel, this is their church's history. And then as we began to name it, they said, our disciples are uniquely planted, deeply rooted, carefully pruned.

and persistently fruitful. And they just said, these are the disciples we develop. We want you to be uniquely planted, knowing both who you are and where God's placed you. We you to be deeply rooted in God's word and in prayer. We want you to be carefully pruned because we have learned through a very difficult season that God prunes those he loves. And as he does, it's always for our benefit and it's always good. And persistently fruitful because you are called to share your faith and multiply your life.

And so just in that right there, whenever I go and we do training events with them, there's like a tear almost in their eye as they speak it. And that right there moves it from the head to the heart. And people say, whatever that is, I want that. I've been searching for that. Give me that. And that's the kind of big thing of moving from a definition to something like a dream disciple.

Jason Allison (22:05)
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, one thing I've used a lot is talking about discipleship. And what I found in a lot of churches is that discipleship has come to mean everything and therefore it ends up meaning nothing. And so that's kind of what you're describing there. Right. Is there maybe give us some examples or some ideas when you think about making this concept of making disciples in a church? How does the.

Rob Paterson (22:16)
Hmm.

Vick Green (22:16)
That's

right.

Jason Allison (22:31)
context in which the church exists impact the way and even the objective of the disciples that they're making.

Vick Green (22:36)
Mm.

Yeah, so let's have a little fun with that. When I say the word football, what image comes to your mind?

Jason Allison (22:46)
big stadium. don't know. I mean, the shoe. Yeah, like, I mean, I'm right outside of Columbus. So yeah, that's that's what comes to my mind.

Vick Green (22:48)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:49)
The shoe, baby, the shoe.

Vick Green (22:51)
There you go.

There we go. So, I mean, obviously I'm LSU guy down South and so thanks for still letting me be on the podcast. I really appreciate that. So right there, little difference, but hey, if I ask that question to somebody in Europe or South America, what are they going to say? Yeah. So right out the gate, just because we say the same thing does not mean we mean the same thing. And when we say the same thing, but mean different things, it's a recipe for confusion.

and frustration. And so it's just the idea, shared language does not equal shared understanding. And so that right there is discipleship or make disciples or follower of Jesus or insert any language there that's generic or very high level. We all have a different picture in our mind of what it means. And the reason

The reason you guys went Ohio State and I go LSU and you're a Europe or South America go soccer is because your past experiences shape your present expectations. And with our past experiences that people have, let's say it's been a more over-programmed view of church or maybe come back to our pastors that have never been discipled. And so they've never seen life on life discipleship.

or they grew up in a church that measured success by attendance. If all of that are our past experiences, it's shaping then what we think when we start talking about make disciples. So the thing about it is you can get up on stage and you can yell go and make disciples till you're blue in the face. But people don't get it. There's a disconnect. It feels like two different languages.

because you're screaming a soccer ball and they're hearing American football and they're two different pictures. And so until we get clarity that brings us together, that gets our whole congregation, our leadership all on the same page, seeing the same picture, then we're never going to begin to move forward. We'll always have multiple visions and where there's multiple vision is always going to lead to division.

Rob Paterson (24:57)
Mm.

Jason Allison (25:04)
Let me, let me push back on that a little. I'm doing this out of, I'm doing out of, is what I've received when I've, you know, made statements like that is, you know, and, I'm going to caricature it a bit, but, there's only the Bible and the Bible doesn't, isn't there a biblical picture of a disciple and shouldn't we all strive to, shouldn't that just be the one thing every church can agree on? Why isn't there just one picture of a disciple? Why would it be different based on, you know,

Vick Green (25:06)
Yeah, come on. Let's go for it. Ready.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (25:33)
If I'm in Louisiana or Nashville or the middle of nowhere, Ohio, where Rob lives.

Vick Green (25:39)
Yeah, so if you go to the same church, mean, take two churches down the street and you go to the same church and you follow all of that leadership and everything that they do for 10 years, at the end of it, are you not going to look different based off which church you went to?

Jason Allison (25:54)
Yeah, but why? I mean, it's there's only one Bible. Doesn't God want it all to look exactly the same?

Vick Green (25:57)
So.

I

think it's a great starting point. We use the Bible as always the starting point and we can take Matthew 4 19 and we can use that as the like one verse that really shows three movements in it and you know or whatever you want to. I think it's a great starting place. But what we're trying to get to is man, how do you give your people a vision? And the truth is your church is unique. And just like as you think about

Jason Allison (26:20)
Yeah.

Vick Green (26:26)
your mission or your strategy or where you're going over the next five years, the disciples that you're developing are going to be unique. And so just two churches, if they go and they commit fully to those churches, they're going to come out looking different. And the reason is like it's shaped kind of from three different lenses. There's the congregation, every congregation God is putting different, if Ephesians 2.10 is true.

and every person is a workmanship is unique. When you put them all together, the culture and the congregation is unique. Then you put the community, well, every community has its own struggles, has its own issues. The challenges that you guys face in Ohio are gonna be very different than Louisiana versus Tennessee out West. And so the community, there's unique challenges. And then lastly, the convictions of the leadership. There's, mean, when leaders come in and they are

burden, there's certain convictions and passions that they have that undoubtedly are going to shape the people they develop. And so we're starting from the same place of the Bible. We're not adding something to it, but there are ways in which we are elevating the vision of how we develop them that's going to be unique to each context.

Jason Allison (27:41)
Yeah, that's great.

Rob Paterson (27:41)
Yeah, that's that's

so good. And I love the idea, you know, and this language is everywhere now too. But like, man, the the greatest gifts that God places within a local community, a local congregation to address the biggest needs in that community, you know, and that's what a what a great opportunity for gospel and for transformation. You know, that's that's super cool. So I'm assuming there's going to be pastors listening to this podcast and they're going to hear, you know, an analogy like

Vick Green (27:56)
That's right.

Rob Paterson (28:08)
you know, hey football and it means different things and they're gonna think, that's really helpful. And so I'm gonna add that into my Sunday sermon this week and all my people are gonna get it and they're gonna start living it, right? Which is one of the myths you talk about. am I gone?

Jason Allison (28:20)
don't know where he went there. OK, hang on Rob.

Start your back your back to start that what you were saying, because I like where you're going with it. You can hear a local pastor saying it, you know, yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:32)
Yeah, yeah.

So, so Vic, I'm sure there's a local pastor listening into this con this podcast, and they're thinking, man, I love that analogy, the football thing and how it means different things, right. So they're going to add it in to their sermon for this Sunday. And they're going to think there I have trained my people to understand this, they're now equipped and they're going to go live it.

Vick Green (28:42)
He

Rob Paterson (28:55)
One of the things you talk about in the book is the equipping myth, right? This idea that just because we've taught about it, you know, on a Sunday morning that our people are trained now or fully equipped. Talk a little bit about that and what's maybe a better pathway or an additional thing churches can do to actually correct that fault.

Vick Green (28:59)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I it. So the quipping myth, so all of these are kind of five myths that over the years, 17 years, we've worked with 4,000 churches. And so we've kind of distilled down what are some, what are the most prevalent myths that hold culture back? And so they're like commonly held beliefs that maybe seem good, but actually are negatively impacting your culture.

So the engagement myth we shared earlier, that's like the number one one. The equipping myth, the other, and it just believes it's a false assumption that teaching equals training. And in what it is, the church has so many teaching environments and these teaching environments, if you're in the educational space, it's passive learning versus active learning is another way of kind of thinking about it. Teaching is great. You have to have it because it's what introduces information.

Like I can't develop or master or fully understand something I've never known about. So teaching is great at introducing information, sermons, small group curriculum, all of those things, videos, podcasts, like this right here. It's very like helpful. But if we actually want to move and develop people, we have to move beyond teaching to training. Training is active learning. It focuses on applying. It focuses on coaching and evaluation, reproducing.

And so we have to have both of those, both the teaching environment and the training environment. And so the church often has the teaching part, but they're lacking in the training spaces. And so what we often say with that is you can't have a multiplication vision without a multiplication vehicle and expect it to work. Most churches have a multiplication vision. They don't have a multiplication vehicle.

Jason Allison (31:00)
Mm-hmm.

Vick Green (31:06)
And so then we get frustrated when we don't see disciples being made, people stepping out to it. And it's like we were casting the vision, but there isn't a place where this sole intention is to multiply leaders. And so in that for churches, we ask the question, what's your multiplication vehicle? And the way that we define that is where is there a ministry who had sole purpose multiplication? And it's a place where

Disciple making skills are modeled, explained, applied, and developed. Modeled, explained, applied, developed. Another way of thinking about it is think about just real quick, driver's ed. There was somebody who modeled driving for you all your life and you just saw it. Then you went to driver's ed, you learned all about the content.

but no teacher and no parent would put their kids on the road with only education. You need education plus experience. So they put you in there with your driver's ed teacher, but there's the brake on the passenger side because they don't want to go in the ditch and they know you're not going to be good at it. And then finally, after hours there, you get, you develop the skill of driving and you're able to go get on the road. And that right there, that movement, it's how we develop skills in life. But

Rob Paterson (32:06)
Yeah.

Vick Green (32:27)
then you go to the church and there's so few places where disciple making is actually being practiced and those things are.

Jason Allison (32:34)
Well, I agree 100 % with everything you just said. I I banged that drum, you know, right alongside. Here's what I'm running into. And maybe you can help with this a little. What you just described is not efficient and it's not scalable in a broad like it's so efficient for me to stand up. I mean, a few weeks ago, I was preaching at a church here in the greater Columbus area, Church of a Thousand. I stand at one person stands up.

Vick Green (32:41)
Yeah, yeah.

Sure.

Jason Allison (33:02)
proclaims truth to a thousand people and in you know, one hour the whole thing's done. They've learned something new. They're completely different people now, right? They've been but I mean like but I mean there's so much efficiency if just I'm purely thinking as a Western, know, that's so efficient. But what you just described driver's ed that is the most inefficient process now agree. I'm with you. I have two daughters who I taught to drive.

Vick Green (33:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (33:30)
And thank you, Jesus, for driver's ed, because if I was the only one, they might not have survived it or I might not have, depending on it. But like, let's dive into it just for a second. Like, why is that so hard for churches to act and leaders and pastors to actually embrace this idea of, you know, the one or the three rather than the multitudes?

Vick Green (33:37)
Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, if efficiency was the goal, that's a fine strategy. But faithfulness is the goal. Faithfulness to the way that God calls us to lead his church. And you can't divorce your church's strategy from the ways of Jesus and expect the blessings of Jesus.

Rob Paterson (34:13)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (34:14)
That's good.

Vick Green (34:15)
And so at the end of the day, Jesus took, He took 12 everyday men and He invested them for three and a half years. And now there's a movement that's happening 2000 years later that has gone all across the globe that has changed everything. And so, I mean, we can reframe efficiency from that lens and we can say, actually, it's about as efficient as it gets. The problem is we're using the wrong timeline. And I think so often pastors, church leaders,

They want the power of multiplication, but they won't be patient with the pace of multiplication. And you can't ask and want the power of multiplication and not be okay with the pace of it. And so, so much of the equipping myth is like, yeah, it will not, it will not scale, it will not go quick. One of the biggest things that we have to in our coaching really slow down is like, you're not measuring.

Rob Paterson (34:51)
Mm.

Vick Green (35:10)
your coaching and multiplication the same way that you measure your Sunday morning attendance. I can, like you said, I can get up on stage and I can from the platform say, everybody get in a small group and I can fill a small group really quickly because that's all about activity and it's engaging people and it's open to everyone and it's easy to just, okay, I'll, I will go to that thing. If we're talking about transformation, that's something that takes much slower.

But ultimately that's the goal in itself. And so I think so much of that is just, man, what are the methods that Jesus did and how do we get back to that? And the truth is there's really no shortcuts to multiplication and leading a movement.

Jason Allison (35:54)
Yeah. Hey, Rob, I want to go back real quick. The beginning of the book you really talk about, and I think Robbie probably wrote this chapter because he was talking about his own journey in this whole process, you know, makes the move to the new place and it's not working, so to speak, the way it was, you know, previously. And he talks about sitting on his front porch. Right. And talk to me a little bit about that idea of the revival, the awakening, the whatever.

Rob Paterson (35:54)
Oof.

Vick Green (36:11)
That's right.

That's right.

Jason Allison (36:21)
you want to talk about there, starting with the leader. What does that mean? does that happen?

Vick Green (36:25)
Yeah.

So good. Yeah, too, just to connect that to what we just, we're talking about the wanting the power multiplication, but not okay with the pace. So our journey and then it'll kind of connect to the front porch time for Robbie was, so Robbie had been at two other churches, Louisiana, then Chattanooga. He moves in 2015 to Long Hollow. At this time, the church is 8,000 people. And it's like, man, this thing is about to just explode.

Robbie comes in with all his strategy, all his lessons of the playbook. And, and what happens, it starts off, everybody's excited year one, but then it just starts to just go downhill fast. and, and it just, the people aren't buying in things aren't going well. And so in 2020, whenever I get up there, we've gone from 8,000, we're getting close to 4,000 now. And we're sitting there and.

the book starts with why isn't it working? And we were seeing it. Some churches, it was great. Some churches, things weren't. And we were just like, why isn't it working in churches? Why isn't it working ours? And what happened was we began to really go back and really start to pray and plan and really to look at everything. And so the cool part of the pace of multiplication is,

We went down from 8,000 to 4,000 at year five. Robbie is about to just like, he's, he's about to quit. And then the revival comes and then we start to figure out some things with the replicate. then now the church is now nine, 10,000 in person. And then is it's virtual reach now is like 20,000 something like in prisons and all across the United States.

And we're seeing disciple making flourish. But at the end of the day, it's what we thought was going to happen in year two and three. And at year five, we were like ready to throw in the towel. And so many pastors will give up in year two, three, four, because the vision they had isn't going as fast as they thought. And it's not as embraced as they thought. And it's like how many people miss the benefits and the blessings we're getting now at year 10.

Rob Paterson (38:25)
Mm.

Mm.

Vick Green (38:39)
because we gave up at year three and four. And so just think it's just an encouragement for us all, you know, that, it takes time and it doesn't go as quick as we thought. for us, I just speak to like, that was the moment where we almost wanted to throw the towel in. And that's where in the book we talk so much of when it comes to leading a movement, a movement starts and is sustained by spiritual renewal.

Jason Allison (38:48)
Yeah.

Vick Green (39:05)
that there's something that God has to do in the heart of the leader. And we learned that by just Robbie spending hours on the front porch, just personally, just like, God, I'm burnt out. Nothing's working in the church. Help. And then what we began to see after six, seven, eight months of a season of that, that was just difficult, that was painful, God brought just a renewed.

Jason Allison (39:18)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (39:19)
Mm.

Vick Green (39:29)
energy to us, but also brought revival to the church in a way that changed everything.

Rob Paterson (39:34)
Yeah, that's so beautiful. Just this morning, it's funny how God stacks things. You know, we're talking about the pace of movement, kingdom, disciple making. We as a church are in a process where we're trying to select another elder. And I saw a Chuck Swindoll interview this morning that just popped into my feed where someone was saying at 90 years old, if you could do one thing different, what would you do?

Vick Green (39:42)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (39:58)
Chuck just said if he could do one thing different in ministry, he would select leaders more slowly because he always was so passionate about what he was trying to accomplish that he sometimes, you know, he moved too quickly and that's not that's not how God does his best work. So Vic, I love I love movement ready church. I love that you guys basically have said, hey, we're going to we're going to make.

Jason Allison (40:06)
Hmm.

Vick Green (40:13)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (40:14)
Yeah.

Vick Green (40:16)
You

Rob Paterson (40:25)
our whole process accessible. We're going to make it affordable, you know, for people, you know, maybe just like who probably everybody like first step, get the book, right? But I mean, who would you say is like the person? Yeah, you, want to get the book and read through that, but for people listening, who might be that person or that pastor or that church who might be the right candidate, not just to get a book, but to maybe reach out and connect with replicate. Cause they might be kind of in a place where

Vick Green (40:27)
Mm.

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (40:53)
that next step of helping create more of a disciple making culture in their church is something they need some help with.

Vick Green (40:57)
you

Yeah, think, yeah, for us, mean, the disciple making, like I would say any pastor who is wanting to prioritize disciple making, that's obviously, that's the easy first step, you know, in connection there. But I would just say, if it's a pastor, if you're wanting to do, you know that there's more in ministry. You know, I think there's so many pastors who,

Even, it's funny, so many of our pastors are having, being successful. I was just with a pastor last week and he said, every church in my area looks to us as the church that has it together and successful. And he just said, but why am I not happy? He just said, I know that there's more to ministry than this and my people, I know that they need more and I just don't know how.

And I just think that's such a great, mean, that was literally this week, I have conversation with a new pastor every week, that's some version of that. And so think if you're a pastor that wants to see more for your people, that wants to see ministry too, I would say ministry outside of your church building happening. That's where we are so uniquely positioned of, I wanna help you not just thrive when the church all gathers together.

on Sundays or Sundays and Wednesdays, but man, how do we get our people making disciples where they live, work and play all throughout the week? And so if that's a pastor feels that, feels burden for it, I feel like we often are able to come alongside, put words to that burden, but then also give some practical solutions to help them start to get the ball rolling.

Jason Allison (42:33)
that's good. Well, Vic, hey, I hate that we're already out of time here, but this has been so we could I could sit and talk discipleship shop with you for, you know, for hours on end and Rob as well. so I mean, I appreciate you one, just taking the time to talk about it, but to, you know, taking the time to produce a resource like this book and then everything that's behind it. mean, and I would encourage pastors who are listening, you know, check it out.

Like you can go to replicate ministry, like find it out. We'll put links, of course, in the show notes and stuff. But, you know, the book is Movement Ready Church by Vic Green and by Robbie Gallati. Find it. We'll again put links to that as well. But check it out because it takes discipleship and it breaks it down and says this is more than just another class. This is more than just four bases that you're supposed to cover. You know, it goes way beyond says, it gives you that groundwork, right?

Vick Green (43:15)
you

Jason Allison (43:24)
Here's where you start so that you can begin to produce disciples, which is really what ultimately Jesus, this is the one thing Jesus said, go make disciples. you know, there wasn't a whole bunch of other stuff, love each other and go make disciples. And yet that is the thing that we seem to struggle with. So man, I just appreciate you guys doing what you're doing to help churches do that. And it lines up perfectly with what, you know, the Church Talk podcast is all about because it.

Vick Green (43:32)
.

you

to.

you

Jason Allison (43:51)
just says, hey, if you want to actually do what Jesus called you to do, here's a resource, here's a connection, here's a team of people who have made this the priority in their life and are willing to help. So man, thanks for doing that and for taking a few minutes and talking about it with us.

Vick Green (44:00)
All right.

Yeah, so great to be with you guys. I know obviously just the conversations we've had love the kindred spirits around it. Yeah, we'd love anyone that wants to reach out and your replicate.org is there. But also we do actually not just the book but movement ready trainings all across the country. So one day events and virtual. And so we'd love to me, meet, see you guys there meet others there but grateful for the time together. So thank you guys.

Jason Allison (44:29)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. Well, to our listeners, we appreciate you and we're cheering for you and we can't wait to hear your stories of making disciples and help us see what maybe didn't work for you and what has and how we can come alongside you and help you do what Jesus called you to do. Have an amazing week. We'll talk to you soon.