Rob & Jason Cultivate Humility

In this episode, Rob and Jason discuss the importance of humility, strategic ministry, and cultivating wisdom in leadership. They share personal stories, practical tools, and spiritual insights to help pastors and leaders navigate the challenges of ministry with grace and effectiveness.


Church Health Scorecard - https://www.churchtalkproject.com/scorecard

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview
02:51 The Importance of Connection in Ministry
05:27 Curating Genius: Collaborating for Greater Impact
08:22 Navigating the Pressure of Leadership
11:05 The Role of Humility in Leadership
16:51 Wisdom and Humility: A Powerful Combination
22:10 Navigating Loss and Regret
26:20 Decision-Making in Ministry
30:21 Living in the Spirit's Guidance
33:52 The Tension of Pride and Humility
37:59 The Challenge of Busyness and Inadequacy

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:00)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. Rob, you were on a roll and I hadn't even hit record yet and I finally just hit record, but now you stop talking. We lost the wave. I guess the rest of the episode is going to stink.

Rob Paterson (00:17)
Yeah. And we're only 20 seconds in. that's a real, a real bad thing to declare. Well, you know, and actually it's funny. And I think let's just be honest. Well, we always are. That's maybe our gift and our curse, right? Our, our level of honesty, but we were just talking, you know, a number of minutes ago about how, for weeks and weeks and weeks, you know, we had hundreds of downloads a week.

Jason Allison (00:19)
Hahaha!

That's a bad omen. ⁓ no, no, no.

Yes.

Rob Paterson (00:43)
And then last week, you know, the stats, which again, we're not like stat hawks. We're not like, you know, our, our lives, our emotions do not like rise and fall based on how many people listen to and or downloaded, you know, our podcast every week, but it was, there was like a precipitous, you know, drop off in that. And, you know, like again, we, we, we exist, like we always say to encourage and equip.

and engage with pastors and leaders. We don't care if that's a few dozen or a few hundred or whatever, right? Like, so, man, what an important sort of thing. I know for me, I've had so many moments through 30 plus years of ministry where I just needed some help. I needed some wisdom. I needed some encouragement, you know?

Jason Allison (01:17)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Rob Paterson (01:33)
And, and sometimes like I had ready access to that. And other times it was like, you know, I feel like I'm out here by myself all alone. And even the people around me who I could talk to, you know, I probably shouldn't cause that'll undermine, you know, whatever. And, and that's a hard place to be. So, you know, if you're listening, I know like we might, if you listen consistently, we might sound like broken records, at this, but when we say.

Jason Allison (01:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:01)
Hey, reach out to us. Shoot us an email. We're really, really serious about that. Like if you're trying to figure something out, if you're struggling with something and we can connect you with a person, a resource, or be that in some way, form ourselves, man, like we are super happy to do that because, you know, it's just an important need, I think, in the ministry world.

Jason Allison (02:18)
yeah.

Yeah, well, and in line with that, too, you know, if this podcast does help you one, reach out, but then to share it with somebody like, know, that you've probably got three or four other pastor friends that leaders, friends that would benefit from, you know, hearing some basic thoughts and some ideas as well as be connected to some resources and people that, you know, really doing some pretty amazing things. We've had the privilege of interacting with some pretty high level people.

over the last few years. yeah, it helps us to know if you subscribe and you share, it just helps us know that someone's out there and that it's actually helpful because we really want to do that. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:05)
Yeah,

and Jason, as you were saying that, this is like an oldie but a goodie. So in the small group that I'm a part of, last week we were talking and one of the people in the group, one couple, she is like a professional type person and like loves Jesus and is on fire for Jesus. But she was talking about some of the things she's trying to introduce in her professional workplace. So she's trying to like.

figure out appropriate ways to just love people and help them see Jesus a little bit and be a positive kind of presence there. And she's at the top of the food chain, one of the leader types. I'm to be very vague on purpose. so she was saying, it's so interesting how I can go through my entire day and whether it's at work or whether it's as a parent or whether it's as a spouse in any realm. And it's like, I love Jesus and I want to serve Jesus and all this stuff.

But I can go through like a whole day and sometimes just not be mindful of his presence, not pray, not ask him for help, not try to be kind of connected. And this person was saying this like as in a, like I'm feeling the the weight and the stress of that. And so I was talking about, you know what, like, is that a problem? You know, well, you know, there's gonna be busy seasons where maybe it's some of that overwhelm that sort of builds.

And because of that, it forces you to change your rhythms as opposed to, Jesus, I talk to you in the morning when I wake up and or at bedtime before I go to sleep. And that's like what I do. And now all of a sudden, like the weight and stress and demands of life are forcing you into more, know, I wanna try to foster that moment by moment connection. And you know what, throughout our lives, it's not like, I mean, yeah, in a perfect world, we are like,

connected 24 seven 365. Let's be honest, that's not like realistic really for anyone. It's always the goal. you know, like our I think our rhythms ebb and flow and life kind of helps push, you know, us to the different extremes. And so I'm trying to like encourage her in this and I said to this person, hey, one book that really helped me that I read, gosh, feels like decades ago.

Jason Allison (04:55)
Yeah.

now.

Rob Paterson (05:21)
was Donald Miller's Blue Like Jazz. know, how our faith is more like jazz. It's like we always, you know, in the culture, give me the rules, give me the, and it's like, no, no, no. Like it is more improvisational and we do, there is a sense in which we have to at times feel our way through it, you know. And instantly this person had found the audio book and, you know, got it and those, but I'm just like, hey,

Jason Allison (05:23)
yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:46)
There was a resource that literally decades ago, someone told me about when nobody even knew who Donald Miller was. think he's Don Miller now. That's what he goes by and he's, you know, doing marketing stuff. But man, that book just helped me in, um, in a formative season of life and ministry. And so now I'm sharing it with somebody, you know, whatever 25 ish years later.

as a resource that's gonna be helpful in their faith. And same thing, right? Like you listen to a podcast, you might listen to it and it's like, yeah, they talk about some helpful things. I'll just like listen to it as background noise as I'm driving to work. And then there's other times where it's like that episode maybe landed in a way or scratched an itch for me that was super helpful. And so you just, know, either you share it you put it in the back of your mind and you're like, ooh, I'm talking to a colleague in ministry or who's struggling.

And I think that episode could be super helpful. mean, what a fun thing to think we could be a small part of that for someone's life and journey.

Jason Allison (06:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I was just I had a call with an author, George Bullard, last week and was emailing with him this morning because I think I might actually end up having dinner with him next week because I randomly am going to be in the same city as him. One of those weird whatever. But I'm ordering a case of his books so that I have, you know, these books that I can then go to a leadership team.

at a church, give them a copy of the book, work through that resource and how it helps. you know, because it's not me. I mean, I'm not the one who wrote the book. I'm not the one who developed all this, but I do have a connection to someone who did some really strong stuff in a particular area. And if that can be of service, mean, tomorrow night I'm driving up to Lake Erie somewhere and I don't even remember exactly how to get there. Thank you, Lord for Google Maps. ⁓

Rob Paterson (07:45)
Hahaha.

Jason Allison (07:46)
But you know, I'm working with a church team there who use the the the church health scorecard that I developed that, you know, I should put a link to that in the show notes and put it on our website because it's free. You know, there's no no charge, but it helps you assess where is your church? Where are you struggling? Where are you strong? How do you, you know, develop some strategic thinking around those things? And it's just it's just a resource that I know when I was struggling at times or even when things were going well.

And if I just had connection to a few of those things, it would have just been a massive encouragement to me. ⁓

Rob Paterson (08:22)
Yeah,

that's great. you know, as you're talking, and I think this kind of segues us right into, and we've already been talking about it, even though our listeners don't know yet, but it kind of gets us to this week's topic because, you know, you and I have mentioned a little bit in passing the process that we've been a part of these last five months with our network, you know, just helping to think through how we can be.

more strategic and effective and really helping and serving our churches so that you know well into the future You know because everybody like we just like figure out rhythms and then we just keep doing those rhythms and sometimes maybe They become less effective or even ineffective and so it makes sense to revisit that stuff, right? So we've been a part of this process actually last week on the podcast We had our our good friend Joshua Soros who's a pastor and church planner

who was also part of that process. But one of the things that, it was a term that I came up with early on in the process that is somewhere buried deep in the language, but I just loved that it was curating genius. know, like what if one of the things that we could do well is curating genius? Now everyone hears the word genius and everybody, me too, right? Like we all wanna be geniuses. We all wanna say, hey, like come talk to me, cause I'm really good at everything. I know a lot about everything, right? Wouldn't that be cool?

but it's not the way things work.

Jason Allison (09:43)
⁓

trust me, it is a burden to bear.

Rob Paterson (09:48)
And, and, here's, but here's also the truth, right? man, Jason, there, there are, you know, two or three things you are amazing at. And there's two or three things I'm great at. they're like, literally, like as much as we want to be geniuses and everything, like, I say that not you and me, I mean, everybody, you know, the truth is like we all, every one of us, if you're listening to this, you might be like, no, I'm not good at much.

Jason Allison (09:59)
Yep. Yep.

Rob Paterson (10:13)
No, no, no, there are two or three things you are great at. And so if we can curate that so that man, you know, I can bring my gold and you can bring your gold. And if everyone brings their gold to the table, man, the things that we could do together in the ways that we could help each other, you know, just get incredible. The problem is, you know, very few people and maybe until it's like too late, you know, you're just of the age where, and we joke about this all the time. You and I are of the age for a lot of things now.

We're of the age where our bodies hurt nonstop. And we're of the age where maybe we just don't, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I mean it in a positive way, we don't care about how people view us, our reputation from a superficial standpoint. And so we are happy to say, you know what? I just don't know, or I'm not very good at that at all, but I know someone who is.

Jason Allison (10:42)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:05)
And let me make an introduction or let me make a connection. It's important for all of us. And if you're listening to this and you're in your twenties or thirties or even forties, the quicker you can get to a place where you don't care about the stuff that doesn't matter. And you can embrace the humility that will help, you know, just when you don't know, just say you don't know. and in fact, and this is like, this is a whole other, like, I'll just say this one sentence though.

Nothing frustrates me more than watching a pastor who someone asks a question that they don't they obviously don't know the answer and they try to make something up You know cuz I've got to know you don't have to know if you don't know Say you don't know say you'll look it up. Say you'll do some research. Just yeah. Anyway, we need that humility

Jason Allison (11:39)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. And the process that we went through, we've been alluding to one of the things that came out of it for me was at the very end we do, what are you taking with you and what are you leaving behind? And I did that exercise Saturday night with the church team that I was working with and it was so cool to be on the other side of it. when I did my, I'm leaving, what I'm,

I said I'm leaving behind the need to be the expert in the room because I can't be number one. But then number two, the pressure of that then begins to, it just weighs on you because if you feel like you have to be the main guy who knows everything at every single meeting, you'll either stop having meetings, right? Or it'll just, it'll weigh on you. And so.

holding on to that idea. It's almost like in the Bible, like Jesus through Paul wrote this letter to the church at Ephesus about how the role of the pastor is not to be the expert on everything, but instead the role is that the fact is that the spirit gave to the church some roles. And the reason he gave these leaders was to equip the saints for the ministry. we, Jesus said right there, you don't have to be the expert.

Your job is to equip the experts to be an expert where they're an expert. There's a lot of experts in that sentence.

Rob Paterson (13:06)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I think there's this pressure too, that exists, just in ministry in general, whether it's within the local church or in some ways it's greater and the local church, but some ways it's greater, like doing a regional role like you're now doing Jason, because like for me, like, you know, Sunday comes every week. So I've, I have some responsibilities, to like do things and or figure things out.

And it'd be nice for me just to say, hey, so and so you're going to do this next week and Hey, so and so you're going to do this the week after. And if I, if I just did that endlessly, you know, it would start happening very quickly. People would be like, Hey, wait a minute. Like that's cool, but I got a day job. got a family, you know, like you're the one that has some, some flexibility because this in part is your job. Right. And so, you know, for you in a regional role, I can totally see like, you're like, they pay me every two weeks.

Jason Allison (13:43)
nothing would get done.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:00)
to be the one who helps churches who need some strengthening. And so I need to develop this and learn that and have this tool for this area and this other tool for that area. And I could totally see just those natural, you're like, I need to be responsible. I'm getting a paycheck. So I need to sort of become a jack of all trades and all things to all people and have every.

you know, tool and training and certifications so that then I can sort of go everywhere and meet everyone's need except for the fact that you will also like die very quickly of a massive heart attack because nobody can sustain that. So like, I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge there are all these tensions and, and pressures that, you know, any healthy person might be able to look into.

Jason Allison (14:37)
You

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:52)
and go, no, no, no, you shouldn't feel all that. And you can't carry all that for any one of us. But on the inside of us, you know, we a lot of times kind of just fall into that trap because it's

Jason Allison (15:01)
Oh, yeah, which I

think I think pastors fall into that trap a lot at leaders, you know, and pastors as leaders, because we do feel this calling from God to do this. You know, it's not just, oh, I happen to have a degree in this and I got a job doing it like there's a call from God. And all of a sudden, that just raises the stakes in such a way. And so we kind of get caught in this trap of, hey, I need to be the top

because God's called me and yet, and this kind of, I was reflecting this morning before we talked, over the last few weeks, this idea of humility has just cropped up like in multiple occasions from multiple situations, like not even connected. I was preaching at a church in Pennsylvania a few weeks ago and I happened to be looking at Proverbs 12, which talks one of the key themes of that chapter is humility.

which all the Proverbs, you it comes up multiple times. you know, and then I was talking with some other people and they were talking about this morning, I was on a prayer call with a network and they were talking about a narcissist leaders and, you know, their interactions with some, people over their, you know, their course of ministry, where there is this extremely prideful leader who really hurt a lot of people, you know, in the process. And what does humility mean?

Rob Paterson (15:57)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (16:25)
as a leader, just all these different things keep cropping up. And I thought, you know, and Rob, I'm going to embarrass you ever so slightly, though it takes a lot to embarrass you. you know, mean, one of the reasons that I love our friendship so much is because, you know, as much as a visionary leader as you are, you were gifted in that area, you still have a humility about you. And so that's a, there's a tension there that I know you feel.

but you also have been able to navigate that well. And I'm sure you've messed up on either side of that at any time. But overall, as I look at the 15 years of ministry that I've watched you, I know that there's a humility in you that even though you can lead at a very high level, I never have to worry that you're gonna feel like you're too good for whatever.

I mean, I've seen you sweeping things up as well as standing on the stage in front of hundreds and even thousands. You know, so like there's just a that's cool. So I just thought, man, I think we should talk a little bit about just this idea of humility as a pastor, because I feel like there's two extremes. I know some pastors who almost feel humiliated, like they just don't feel like they're worthy of anything. And then I know other pastors who feel like they deserve everything. ⁓

Rob Paterson (17:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (17:46)
You know, and I'm just

curious how have you experienced that? How have you felt that tension between being a humble servant, but also leading?

Rob Paterson (17:55)
Yeah. Well, and I think what you said a minute ago goes both ways, you know, like, so if, if I let Bob who goes to my church down, I can probably live with myself. But if I let God down, you know, like, like, you know, that's, that's a whole different level of pressure and responsibility, you know, so sometimes that drives us in ways that cause us not to be. But if we think about that in, in, in, the, the other direction.

Jason Allison (18:07)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:21)
It's like, Ooh, if I want to, if I'm like in a season of fruitfulness or success or whatever, and I am tempted to start being like, look at me crushing this God, were so lucky to have me on your team. Right. Like, ⁓ like all of a sudden now, like that level of whatever arrogance, or just insanity, delusion, whatever, you know,

Jason Allison (18:35)
Hahaha

Rob Paterson (18:47)
is like this, there's that responsibility because God did call us to do things and to even work hard to posture ourselves in the kinds of ways that God sort of instructs. And so, I mean, very simply, and I remember, James 4.6, I spend a lot of time in that book, especially my formative years, God opposes the proud, but shows favor, gives grace to the humble. So, the scriptures over and over and over again are sort of lifting up.

humility and really as a conduit to success and fruitfulness. And, you know, at some point there's going to be divine opposition to arrogance. so, you know, if you spend any, like, you know, I get it. Like for a lot of us, we're opening our Bibles, unfortunately, to prep for things all the time, multiple times a week and supposed to like daily, you know, just for our own soul, we need to do better at that.

Jason Allison (19:19)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:41)
But if you open that book at all and spend any time in it, like you are gonna see very quickly that sort of arrogance and look at how great I am thing does not last very long. It doesn't age well.

Jason Allison (19:52)
No,

it does not turn out well for people. And in my the sermon that I preached a couple of weeks ago, I made this statement and like I actually made this one up, which surprised me. But, you know, I said humility is a wisdom multiplier. And the idea there is what and I'm just reading what scripture says there. I'm not that smart. But over and over, you just see in Psalms, Proverbs all throughout this, the humble

Rob Paterson (19:56)
you

Jason Allison (20:18)
person becomes wiser and wiser and wiser and so Cultivating humility as a pastor as a leader as just a follower of Jesus It actually is you know, I'm always looking for things in my life that are multipliers, right? If I'm gonna you know, I would love to you know Have some special food that if I just ate that it would multiply a weight loss program Well, there isn't such a magic, you know thing but but like anytime I can find a multiplier

Then I, you I want to lean into it. And, you know, when, when I'm, when we're playing golf, if the wind is behind us, right, that's a multiplier that's going to add some, you know, well, man, if I can find something that will multiply wisdom, I want to lean into that because I know I need wisdom. It seems like at every turn it's being, you know, I'm pushed towards needing wisdom, whether it's to speak into a situation or to have a conversation with someone or just to navigate life.

Rob Paterson (21:01)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (21:13)
So I don't know when you think of this idea of a wisdom multiplier, what do you think humility and wisdom like what do think that looks like in just the day to day grind of ministry that I know you are right in middle of?

Rob Paterson (21:28)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I'll give you like a right this second example of this, which again, I think for anyone in ministry, like you said, like with rare exception, there always is that sort of, know, because Sunday always comes, you know, there's always like, got, I got a number because we're getting closer to summer. I have a number of weddings coming up and a couple of them I'm like,

behind schedule, not my fault, their fault, but in terms of the premarital counseling process. it's like, it's like even a spare moment I do have, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, that should be filled with one of these myriad of things, right? So there's always this sense of grind that takes place. there are a couple that, know, faithfully attended my church for a long time. And, you know, his health,

Jason Allison (22:06)
right?

Yes.

Rob Paterson (22:21)
and mobility just declined to the point where he had to go into a care facility. And the last couple days, you know, he went on to hospice care. We heard this this last weekend, late Saturday night, you know, and I instantly I was actually I was somewhere I needed to come home, you know, sleep for a few hours and then do like a whole day of ministry stuff because, you know, Sundays are coming.

and then had an elders meeting after church and then went straight to small group. And so, you know, I'm getting home at whatever nine o'clock that night after being up since four that morning. And I literally was, it wasn't responsive at this point because he was on hospice care. And I'm like, I need to get over. And then like literally within minutes I got the text that, that he had passed. And you know, there, like there's all kinds of things I think we do like mental gymnastics. It's like, I wanted to.

I needed to, I should have, I could have, you And so there's all that stuff that we feel the weight and pressure of. And I think the temptation is to explain why. And we all have reasons why, we're busy, right? Like, and we're not only busy with our jobs, but we're trying to like love our spouses while we're trying to be good parents where, you know, we have lots of things just like everyone does, right?

Jason Allison (23:18)
Alright.

Rob Paterson (23:31)
When something like this happens, just even this morning I was reflecting on, man, I just, I wish I would have had more opportunities and taken advantage of more opportunities just to go hang out with Lester over these last however many years as he's been in a care facility and just not been able to do things and get out. And I didn't have that, but it's really easy for me then to go, well, you know, I have a lot of responsibilities. My church is big. We could use another, like just to almost again,

Jason Allison (23:57)
Yeah.

Justify.

Rob Paterson (23:59)
because of

my own insecurities, like give all the reasons why I didn't and even maybe couldn't. And we all know, like we can do things. Now, should we? Maybe, maybe not. You know, that's a different question. But here's the thing, when you're around somebody and you think about this, you know this, even though we all feel that temptation to like justify and explain like why we did what we did and didn't do what we didn't do.

when you're around somebody who just like in humility owns like, you know what? I really missed an opportunity because I love that guy. I loved his life. And, and, and I, there's like a sense of loss that I missed that opportunity. that is like, even as a family, maybe who was like, I wish Rob would have come by more often or whatever, you know, even as a family, how much more endearing than

than instead of me showing up and like, well, you guys know how important I am and I had this and this and this and this and this. And I go on endlessly like trying to justify my existence. Like one of those is very, very off putting and the other one is endearing because it really connects with the tension every human being feels. I have too many things to do and not enough time to do them. And so I have to pick and choose. And that means I'm going to leave some things out and let some people down. And I hope and pray.

Jason Allison (24:57)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (25:20)
that God is able to fill in those cracks knowing that he is and that as people of faith, you know what? Okay, so maybe we missed some things here, but the good news is we have all eternity to visit. ⁓ And so I have not missed my ultimate opportunity to hang out with Lester.

Jason Allison (25:31)
Yes.

Yeah.

What do you think? You know, as I think you're identifying something very, very important that there we have to choose at times between doing one of multiple things because we can't be everywhere at once. You know, as a pastor, as a leader, as a follower of Christ, what helps kind of guide you in making those decisions? You know, are there?

Do you have some type of formula? Do you use chat GPT? you have a, know, like I'm just curious, like, cause I think that's a, this is a practical thing that I really think pastors need to think about, not just am I making decisions A, B or C, but how am I going about doing that? And just identifying that so you can then analyze if it's going well.

Rob Paterson (26:20)
Yeah, that's really good. I'm sure you do too, but I have some very maybe practical answers to that that might be helpful. And then I also have some more spiritual sounding answers that might not be like practically helpful, but I think are helpful just to think through. I mean, I'm always thinking through, like, again, it's the age old.

mission, vision, values, why has God put me and us here in this space? And, you know, for the most part, you know, those things need to guide and direct for me in particular, like my focus, my energy, and my activities. So like primarily in my church and my setting, you know, there are things that I need to do. And if I'm doing

everything else. It takes me away from actually doing the things that are going to cause my organization to be effective in the purpose we believe God. So I just think like, you know, what, you can't just go, I'm a pastor, so I need to and then I see this all the time. Like if you see like a job, sometimes people send me things like, hey, we're looking to hire, here's the job description. Do you know anybody who fits this bill? And a lot of times like I look and I'm like, Jesus couldn't even be your like,

pastor or youth pastor or kids, but whatever the church is looking for, because it literally, they list like every humanly, it's like, you're not even going to find somebody who's good at like a third of those things. Like it's just not even.

Jason Allison (27:38)
Yeah.

Well, so like what

my work with chemistry staffing, right? We internally, we kind of joke about we call them J Wags, Jesus with a guitar, you know, like that's what this that's what this job description really wants. And there's just no way that anyone could actually do that.

Rob Paterson (27:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. But you know, like, so there's just this, this inherent thing where it's like, we want our pastor to do, and it's like, yeah, I know you do, but you know what, nobody can do that. And so it's on us to sort of be a little bit more focused. So that's one thing. I also think, you know, there's just like things and times and seasons and even people, and I know this might not sound like popular, we should treat everybody the same way. No, like.

Like somebody was like, you know, that person, if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't even be here. They were so involved. were like, that's as the key leader, like you, you just have to at times not like as a thing, common thing, like, you know, give people time to everybody, but, you know, like there's going to be people who get weighted, you're not because of favoritism or any of that stuff, but just because of sacrifice, because of.

Jason Allison (28:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:57)
presence, those types of things. And then I also think there are things that lots of people can do and there are things that only I can do. And if I'm doing too many of the things that lots of people or even sometimes everybody can do, and I get it, I get it, there are times I experienced this too, people were like, well, nobody showed up. And I'm like, wait a minute, there were two staff people, there were three elders, there were like five people from your small group, there were seven other.

random congregation members that showed up. And when they say that, what they mean is Rob didn't show up. And I have to be able to live with the tension of that. But you know what? The church did a great job of showing up. And if you need me to show up, you're probably going to the wrong church because I can't show up for everybody and everything. So those are some practical things, right? Like let your purpose, your mission, vision, values, and they can't be, oh, I'm a pastor, so I do a million things. No, no, no. Like what specifically are you

Jason Allison (29:30)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (29:54)
you know, thinking your church, you know, its unique purpose is, and Jason has some tools, he can help you determine that if you don't know. You're welcome, Jason. But let me give just one more answer that's gonna be more spiritual sounding in this, that I try to cultivate, and I have seasons where I feel like I've cultivated it well and it's working, and other seasons where I'm just like desperately out of alignment and it's not. But I really, the older I get, the more I'm like,

Jason Allison (29:56)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (30:21)
I want to live my life in the power of God's Spirit and under the guidance of God's Spirit. And this was kind of our Easter message this year, which was super fun and compelling, but it's like, man, I want to wake up every day and have a sense of now there's a lot of days I got like a very set schedule and things to do. But I also want to have enough flexibility, at least in parts of many of my days where I can wake up and say, okay, God, where do you want to send me today?

Like I am your agent, right? And you want to empower me by your spirit. And like there's this place, there's this person, there's this need, there's this situation. And I'm deploying, you know, special agent Patterson to, you know, this thing today. like, so, so I really do, you know, want to cultivate and have a sense that like there are times where I'm just like, I really want to, I'm like my heart, I want to be there. I want to do that. I can't.

Jason Allison (31:02)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:17)
I can't right now because there are these sort of mission priorities. And then, you know, but there's a lot of times where I'm just like, God, wherever you want me, send me. And I don't care if it's to the least, you know, or people that haven't really been, it doesn't matter. God, you want me there, you need me there, send me there. And I want to be open to that.

Jason Allison (31:26)
Yeah.

I think those are the harder ones for me, especially. It's rare that I have that, I really wished I could have been there. I just couldn't. Like, not that decision is not one that I have to make very often. Right. I mean, I just I don't have that many options. I'm not invited to a bunch of things. But but, you know, it's like it's not that usually where I run into things where where I have to wrestle with my own humility, my own self-importance is when.

Rob Paterson (31:54)
You

Jason Allison (32:03)
I'm invited to something or asked to be at something that honestly I don't want to go to. I just, you know, like it's like, my gosh, the people there or this or that or, know, or, man, I could I got stuff to do at home. I just don't really want to do it. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:16)
Or even just your own exhaustion. I've been doing stuff nonstop

for like a gazillion days in a row and I just need to breathe for an hour.

Jason Allison (32:25)
Yeah,

yeah, and and and it's but then there's times that I I know I need to go to that or meet with those people or just be present with you know a Certain, know one or two people whoever it is because that's where the spirit is leading me because I said early in the day because Rob told me I should say God where do want me to go today and I'll go and I'll be obedient and

He sends me someplace that I don't want to go, but I got to do it now because that darn Rob. But that's where, know, it just is figuring out when. How do I make those decisions? And I know I I don't get it right every time. A lot of times I'm learning in the rearview mirror, like I'm looking back and I'm saying, OK, you know what? My spirit felt a little off and I didn't listen to it.

And now looking back, OK, I need to remember that feeling because the next time it comes up, I need to pay attention to it. I need to not just squash it down or say, you know, I really need to be open to that. I think that's one of the ways I'm learning. And I mean that like present tense. I'm learning that. man, sometimes when I don't get it right, there is something going on in my soul that I've just ignored for so long. But I'm starting to be aware of it more.

and trying to respond to it. Again, trying, you know.

Rob Paterson (33:52)
Yeah, no, that's so good, Jason. And I actually have a super practical example that was part of my sermon yesterday. And that's when we're recording this. So if people like go try to find me and listen, you know, they might not like get the exact one. But the message title was the right kind of radical, like what kind of radical life does God, and the punchline was God wants us to not build higher fences, but

Jason Allison (34:15)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:22)
longer tables. You know, that's the kind of radical that God is calling us to Jesus, Jesus modeled for us. But one of my things was like I was really wrestling with and I think CS Lewis does a great job in this book, this 1945 book, Great Divorce, right? Where this bus, you know, goes from hell to heaven. And you know, when people who were in hell could like actually go to heaven, and they get to the outskirts, and they're like, nobody wants to stay, everybody wants to go back, right? And we have this weird thought that

Jason Allison (34:23)
Yes. Yep.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:49)
man, I'm gonna make it through this life, because I said some words, I prayed a prayer, I attended a church, and then I get to the end and boom, I'm transformed and I'm ready for something that's completely different. And it's like, if we spent our whole lives being comfortable with the darkness or uncomfortable with the light, and then we think that, boom, now I'm gonna wanna go hang out in heaven and sing hymns and do Bible study. That's what heaven looks like, but you know what I mean? We just are like,

Jason Allison (35:09)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (35:17)
No, like we right now are kind of becoming hopefully more and more the people of God. And so sometimes like we think if I do the really hard thing now, like go see that person I really don't want to see or help somebody who I don't really even like, or then I get to heaven and I can hang out with my bestie and drink lattes and do Bible studies all day long. Cause that's what I really want to do. Like I really feel like I'm crushing it for Jesus. If I have my nice Bible with my highlighters and I sit with my best friend.

couple times a week and drink a $7 latte. Look at me crushing it for Jesus and Jesus is like, hey, but I want you to do this. And it's like, well, that's really hard and gritty. And I do think, you know, like there is this sense in which some of the things we see that are like that ⁓ are actually like shaping us and molding us and aren't things that are hard things we have to do now. Like, so there is that sense for all of us, even as ministry leaders where

Jason Allison (36:02)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:13)
we still are in the discipleship process, because we all have things that are selfish, that are things we would prefer. And yeah, I think that, know, like, yeah, I have those things all the time where I'm not really, like, I would really love if what the Spirit was saying aligned with my own personal preferences into that. think God says, hey, listen, do this thing that you don't like, and I'm gonna show up and surprise you a lot of times, and you're gonna be like, wow, like,

that person, that relationship, what God did to me and even sometimes through me, man, like I can't believe I almost, because of my own perspective and selfishness, almost missed that. That would be a terrible, terrible thing.

Jason Allison (36:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, when do you find that this pride versus humility battle is like most difficult for you? You when you're like you mentioned one that I resonated with a little while ago, but it's when I'm tired, right? When that's when I kind of get that I'm tired and you know what I am. I deserve my rest.

Rob Paterson (37:11)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (37:19)
and this is taking my rest away and I'm important enough that I should get some time away like that's where in my for me personally. That's when I really notice it the most is when I'm tired or really really busy. I don't know. Have you had other experiences? Is there other ways you've seen it crop up that battle?

Rob Paterson (37:37)
Well,

it's funny when you said tired I was thinking, yeah, I'm busy. And then you you gave my answer prematurely. But no, mean, gosh, Jason, when all of the things, outlets, the channels, Christianity Today, whatever, when we, and I think this has been more true as the digital age has continued to progress.

Jason Allison (37:41)
Sorry.

Rob Paterson (37:59)
You know, like there were things that used to happen that nobody ever knew about because you know that it just it was so isolated or whatever. Now, like anything happens anywhere like, you know, Tiger Woods rolls his vehicle because he's under the influence of something or other again and instantly like our our devices are, you know, phones, watches, everything is like but like the whole world knows all the remote villages in Africa know right like instantly about this. And and so like we're

Um, we're, so crazy connected, um, in that way, which is just not like helpful. Um, anyway, I, I, I just feel like, okay, I'm rambling now because guess what? I got so into like saying that I lost my train of thought. Yeah. Do do know where I was going with that?

Jason Allison (38:42)
Ha ha!

Totally understand.

Well, we were just saying when we're busy, we really start to prioritize the things we think are most important, which generally are the things that will make us look the best or get the most done. Or, mean, maybe I'm projecting onto you what I think, but that's it.

Rob Paterson (39:00)
Yes. Yeah, no, no.

Yeah. And so, you know, and I think which kind of, it's such a weird tension, right? Because we get it from both sides. I think one of the reasons that ministry leaders struggle so much with this is because on the one side, our own inadequacies, like I can't let someone down.

Jason Allison (39:22)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:24)
I've already done that so much. so like sometimes we're not going to places because we should, right? Or we need to, or even that God wants us to, what's driving us to, you know, drive on like 30 seconds of sleep, you know, after 10 days of insane busyness is our own insecurities and inadequacies. And that, you know, that's not what should drive us. So this is where humility comes in and we say, Hey, listen, I can show up, you know,

Jason Allison (39:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:54)
and a little bit later today or maybe tomorrow, but I'm just unable to do this now. It takes lot of humility and grace to do that. On the other end of the spectrum, not only our churches, but our culture tends to reward and elevate. And I've struggled with this for a long time. We've even talked about this on the podcast. But we reward and elevate people who are more arrogant, who are prideful.

who are looking at all the amazing things I'm doing for Jesus, who have, we prioritize competency way over character. And I could tell you a hundred stories that would literally make you cry by how denominations and leaders and otherwise very godly wise people have made horrific decisions, because they're like, we're gonna take a chance on that person's competency, even though there's such huge character defects that you just know it's gonna crash and burn.

But, so we live in an environment and in a world where, you know, if we will lack some humility and or push through and do things that are ridiculous and unhealthy, people will love us. People will reward us. People will celebrate us and we'll be more successful. And Jesus is like, who's approval, whose success are you really chasing? Cause guess what? When you are connected with me, you will bear much fruit. And when you are not,

Jason Allison (41:10)
Yep.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (41:16)
You can do nothing, right? Like the scriptures are super clear about this and yet we chase all the other stuff that is not lasting.

Jason Allison (41:19)
you

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, that's so good. Well, gosh, we've talked now for 45 minutes. And yet I feel like there's still tons more we could say. But what I would love is for any of our listeners to reach out and give us some feedback. When when is humility hard for you? When is pride something that you have to battle? And, you know, what are some tools and resources that you've used to help you as you cultivate humility in your life?

Because I think, you anytime we can share stuff like that, that's just iron sharpening iron, right? That's why we do this. so, yeah, feel free to reach out to us. You can do it in the show notes. There's a link, but also, know, Jason at Church Talk Project.com or Rob at Church Talk Project.com. We would love to hear from you. We'd love to know what's going on and how we might be able to serve you. Yeah, I hope you guys, all of you have an amazing week.

Whatever is going on. Just know we pray for you. We love you Rob. Thanks man for another week of just hanging out and sharing and yeah trying to help pastors and Leaders really really grow and just be effective for Jesus Have a great week everybody