The True Cost of Ministry - Money, Culture & Integrity

In this episode, pastors Jason and Rob explore the complex topics of financial stewardship, cultural perceptions of wealth, and the importance of accountability in ministry. They share personal stories, practical advice, and biblical insights to help pastors navigate their financial decisions with integrity and purpose.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
02:31 Navigating Technology and Personal Spending
06:37 Pastors and Perceptions of Wealth
11:34 Accountability in Ministry Spending
16:40 Investing in Personal Well-being
19:34 The Role of Compensation in Ministry
24:00 The Value of Fair Compensation for Pastors
24:56 Cultural Perspectives on Pastor Compensation
26:06 Honoring Spiritual Leaders in Different Communities
28:24 Accountability vs. Scrutiny in Ministry
32:27 Practical Steps for Addressing Underpayment
35:55 Navigating Salary Expectations in Ministry
43:26 Generosity and Financial Stewardship in Ministry

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:00)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast. We are so glad that you would take a few minutes and listen. We've got some good stuff to talk about today. And so you might only get out of pen and paper even. Does anybody use pen and paper anymore? I don't know. That's right, you do. You've got your notebook. I've got one too. I probably use it more than most, but we're old. What are going to do?

Rob Paterson (00:14)
Whoa.

I

Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's always a struggle with me because I mean, I'd be embarrassed on air to, confess and some people are like, yeah, it's cause he's an old guy and he's in ministry. I'd be, but no, no, seriously, like legitimately I would be embarrassed to confess the amount I spent personally on my last iPad. cause it was, I mean, it was, let me say it this way. It was the absolute highest.

amount of money humanly possible to spend on an iPad. ⁓ So I'll just like I'll leave it at that. And there's reasons for that. could tell the whole big long story, but I won't. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll give the Coles Notes version because it did you know, it's one of those things where I wanted one with a big hard drive and they had one at the store like on launch day and I wanted to come up and check because I didn't know which of the two

Jason Allison (00:58)
Okay.

I've heard it, yes.

Rob Paterson (01:20)
screen options I wanted. And so I got there at the time I told the business guy I'd be there. My son and I were like looking and evaluating two models. We did that for about half an hour. Then I called the guy out and said, Hey, yeah, I want to go with this one. And he's like, well, we didn't know you were here in the store. So we actually had another interest of party. We sold the one we were holding for you to and it took months and months and they still never got that one in. But they got the one that had like instead of the one terabyte hard drive, the two terabyte hard drive.

And they're like, and I'd already waited for two months and I'm like, whatever. And I bought that one, which was the, and it, know, with the nano texture screen and the, so I probably spent more than you would spend like on a souped up MacBook pro on my iPad. And I so under utilize it because for like meetings and quick things, I always bring it with me. It's always in my bag in case I need like internet connectivity and more and whatever.

Jason Allison (02:14)
and you whip out

your pen and paper and jot down your notes. I know, I know.

Rob Paterson (02:18)
I do, do. I

just, you know, I'm sorta, so I had this longing to use more technology, but you know, it's just, yeah, I'm kind of stuck in a little bit of both worlds.

Jason Allison (02:31)
Yeah, I hear you. I mean, my iPad is not the it was a good one when I bought it three years, four years ago, three years. I don't remember what what it is, but it works. Still works great. And so I I'm not. But you know what? As pastors, we generally worry about spending money on things like I mean, different people worry in different ways. But I don't know. I just have noticed

I'm always worried. still remember several years ago, you know, I was working at in here and well, is in Powell, Ohio, which is, know, I lived in Delaware, Ohio, which is a great place to live. I love it. It is not a ritzy community. It's nice. And I love living here, but just down the road is another little community called Powell, Ohio. And,

Powell is known as being right next to Dublin, Ohio, which is where the Memorial Tournament is, where Jack Nicholas lives, where, know, all that. like, Powell, the average income, household income there is about three times that of Delaware. But that's where the church that we planted was in Powell. And I remember when the pastor, Sean, dear friend, his father-in-law offered him that he could buy

Rob Paterson (03:40)
Nice.

Jason Allison (03:50)
This car off his father-in-law and his father-in-law retired accountant made really good money Did was a solid work same plate, you know how it is and he had a car took care of it. It was a Lexus And it was ten years old and I don't know how many miles that had on it But I mean it was from South Carolina. So it hadn't wintered, know, like most cars but and his father-in-law was basically offered him to sell it to him for you know, like eight or nine thousand dollars like I mean it just

Basically enough to cover the taxes and transfer and I mean, you it's and and I Sean and I had these long conversations because Sean was feeling so guilty about man Do I really want to park a Lexus and you know in the church parking lot as the pastor's car? Even though it's ten years old even though he got it almost as a gift even you know all those things

Rob Paterson (04:39)
Even

though you guys were ministering in a community where maybe actually a car like that might give him some credibility with the types of people who might come to church.

Jason Allison (04:46)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And and so, I mean, he ended up doing it and never heard anyone upset about it. I mean, we made fun of him just because we knew he would had worried about it. But I know, I know. But but I mean, you know, but I think I do think pastors think about that. I mean, whenever I bought a car, I've always thought, OK, how's this going to look rolling up, you know, in whatever it is? Am I going to am I going to make because, you know,

Rob Paterson (04:58)
I made fun of him.

Jason Allison (05:13)
Delaware is a small community. I know a lot of people, a lot of people know me. They see me driving around. mean, yesterday I, my car is in the shop and, I had to rent a car to do a trip up to Cleveland to meet with the church. Well, I, had points and had an upgrade, all this stuff. I ended up driving. It was a BMW like series three. I don't know. It was a really nice little car, but then I pull into this, you know, this church and

The guy who's the pastor of the church is on the board of overseers for converge. And he's like, nice car. And I'm like, it's a rental. I got it for tonight. That's it. And he's like, well, I was wondering what we were paying you. And he was kidding. Like he was, you know. But that's that is something I think a lot of pastors think about and they worry about. And and so I don't know. And so part of the reason I even wanted to talk about this today is because

My car is in the shop because it's got a crack in something that, it's a 10 year old car and it's going to require like $5,000 worth of work to get it up. You know, mean, I can get it running for a thousand, but to get it to where for the next year. Yeah. And fixed, or I'm going to be leaking coolant just a little bit all the time. And that's never good for a car that, know, and so I'm going through this process of saying, do I,

Rob Paterson (06:25)
Text. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (06:37)
you know, do I drop $5,000 on a 10 year old vehicle, you know, that's got 125,000 miles on it, or do I bite the bullet, trade it in, you know, get whatever I can out of it and, you know, get something, something new. And if I do, what am I going to get? And I haven't had a car payment in three years. So all of those things go through my mind. And so I thought we should talk a little bit about pastors and making

Rob Paterson (06:55)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (07:05)
major purchase decisions and how we go about it and just kind of our thought process.

Rob Paterson (07:08)
Yeah.

So I, I, man, you're talking and I have a million thoughts shooting through my mind. So I remember in our first church plant, which was in Indianapolis. And I mean, we had a real estate developer that made, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in our church, other denominational kind of people and that kind of thing. but I still remember, I've, I've always liked BMWs and I bought my first BMW and it was like, you just said a 10 year old BMW five 40 I.

I paid $14,900 for it. And I remember like next Sunday showing up at church and a lot of those, how much do we pay you? like, you know, those simply because it had the BMW logo, the Rondell on the hood where I could have spent 10, $15,000 more and drove up in a brand new Ford Taurus and nobody ever would have cared. So it's so funny, you know, how people think about those things.

Jason Allison (07:48)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (08:06)
Heck, even remember like years ago now, I was at a pastor's meeting and I just purchased a BMW motorcycle. And I was explaining that I had a Volkswagen that was one of those emissions scandal vehicles. And so after three years Volkswagen bought it back at the same price. So I had almost $20,000 saved up that I put down on this motorcycle. And so it was like a small payment and a low interest rate and all this stuff. And I'm sharing all these things in part because I was impressed with my deal.

But in part because I think as ministry people, we've been conditioned when we buy nicer things to explain how and why it was good stewardship. And I still remember a good friend, Kevin McGee, stopped me and he's like, Hey, he's like, just like everybody else on planet earth, if you can afford this and your spouse is cool with it, you know, why in the world do you feel the need to explain why you, you know what, like,

It's fine that you just bought whatever you bought if you can afford it and your spouse is cool with it, then just do it. But we don't, right? Like that's how most people think. But people in ministry, we have been conditioned over a long period of time to add this third layer in of what's the perception gonna be? What is my church gonna think? What are people gonna think about this? And like, how am I gonna be perceived and or even judged because

Jason Allison (09:29)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:30)
I bought something that they may have five of, but they looked down on me because I did it too.

Jason Allison (09:36)
Yeah, yeah. And I wish there was a nice, clean answer to this. I don't think there is. mean, we're going to because there have been enough pastors and just Christian leaders out there who have abused the charitable donations of people that there should be some kind of, I don't know, what's the word there, some type of accountability.

for the way that we steward what we are given. And so there's that, but then there's also no accountability, Rob shaking his head. We should not be held accountable for how we steward our money.

Rob Paterson (10:11)
No, just,

well, I don't like, so I think the accountability comes in, because we all know like mega church pastors who, you know, make a gazillion bucks or whatever. And I think the accountability comes in and that kind of thing. Like, you know what, like, no, like you can't make endless amounts of money or you can't like expense your purchases to the church so that the if they're your church is big and or doing well, they buy you all your like toys and things.

I think the accountability comes in, in that like you have kind of a, an appropriate salary for the size of your organization and the area you live in and those kinds of things. But the idea that there's accountability and that anybody in your church has like the, the, the ability to question like you, because you bought this brand of car instead of that brand of car. No, like I completely disagree with that notion.

Jason Allison (10:57)
right.

Yeah. No. Well, no,

Rob Paterson (11:09)
in every way. Yeah.

Jason Allison (11:09)
I'm with you. I'm with you on that one. I just mean that there needs to be a system of accountability in place. I don't mean the populace gets to judge everything we do, but I do think there should be some oversight. Right. And even just I need some people around me who maybe if I'm considering something like that, I bounce it off of and they have permission to go, you know,

Rob Paterson (11:19)
Sure.

Jason Allison (11:34)
Let's think about why you want that. You know, it's not if it's because you've done the research, this is the best. It's a great investment. Yada, yada, yada. Fine. But if it's because you really just want that status symbol, then I don't care if it's twenty dollars for, you know, something. I don't care if it's eight bucks for a Starbucks thing just so I can carry on a Starbucks mug. If I'm doing it because I want the status, then it's bad stewardship. That's what I'm talking about.

Rob Paterson (12:01)
And I think, I think like there too, like sometimes even just a conversation with our spouses kind of helps sort that one out. You know what I mean? Because, and I think what you just said is gold, you know, we can, we can spend a tiny little bit of money and it can be a problem, heart, a soul problem, a bad stewardship issue. Or we could spend a ton of money.

Jason Allison (12:08)
yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (12:24)
And it could be actually a good thing to do, a wise thing to do. So, you know, sometimes again, we like, we value and view those things. Like, so a good example for me is I remember a season of my life where I actually started taking blood pressure medication. I was just feeling the weight and stress of everything. It felt like I was, you know, like just, you know, it wasn't anything abnormal, but it was like, man, there's always something to do. There's always someone to go visit. There's, you know, just endless.

my mind never shuts off. can't sleep at nights. And my blood pressure was high enough for my doctors. Literally, we've tried other things. You've lost a ton of weight, but your blood pressure, until you go on vacation in the summertime, it goes back to normal. But when you are in ministry mode, your blood pressure's sky high. And if we don't get you on medications, you're likely gonna have a stroke or heart attack and just not be here anymore or whatever. And I remember, so I did get on medication. That was part of it.

I still remember my wife and I having this conversation and it was before I purchased that first motorcycle. I would take that as many times as the weather was nice, I would drive that to work and back. And it was interesting, I live about three minutes from my church, but it would take me 30 or 45 minutes to get to and from the office on my motorcycle, because it just didn't want to drive in a straight line, it wanted to go out of town and through some hills and through a park and you know what?

Jason Allison (13:41)
Exactly.

Rob Paterson (13:45)
that actually had a very, very positive impact on lots of health markers.

Jason Allison (13:53)
I have

friends who call that wind therapy, right? You know, that's what it is. You get for some people that is just it's, you know, and hey, I was talking with some people last night about Mitch Harrison, who we had on the podcast and his, you know, running on full. What is it? What do you need? What inputs in your life do you need that fill your tank? And, you know, sometimes not for not for me, but for you hopping on that motorcycle and.

Rob Paterson (13:56)
Mm, yeah.

Jason Allison (14:20)
30, 40 minutes just out there, man. And because, you can't hear your phone, you can't hear all that stuff. You got to set it all aside and just go. And I mean, that's that's that's a good thing, especially if it refills your tank. And yeah, I'm with you. I, you know, for us playing golf, I mean, good night. Five hours like that. What a waste. But is it? No, because, you know, there's so much and we don't have to close a deal while we're on the golf course to justify the

You know the time we don't even have there are times that I know I've played with a couple of friends of mine down here. We'll go out and barely say a word through the whole time. But it was the most life giving experience for me just to be out there.

Rob Paterson (15:04)
Yeah, and just to use kind of that same analogy, I had a doctor's visit, I don't know, maybe two, three years ago now, and my blood pressure was high. And she's like, hey, I want you to just go to your happy place. Like think about whatever it is that you love the most or gives you life. And I'm gonna take it again in a few minutes. And so I was just relaxing there, you know, in the office. And she's like, all right, now do it, go to your happy place. And I literally, in my mind,

pictured myself standing on a tee box with three of my buddies, you know, who I golf with all the time. And it was a warm day, a slight breeze, we're joking around. And I'm probably sitting in the office just like picturing this mentally, smiling and my blood pressure was great. You know what I mean? So you just take something that like the stress melts away. You're just present and there and enjoying it. You know what? We need some of those, all of us need.

Jason Allison (15:31)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Yep Yep

Rob Paterson (15:58)
Like, now can't have 10, right? But like, you know, two or three things in our life that are just these go-to things that help us. And again, nowadays, like there once was a time where you could get some decent golf clubs and not spend a small fortune. That day is not today. You know, the price of everything is through the roof. I was joking around like a premium driver. Now you can easily spend $800 on a driver, just a driver. Like that's one of your 14 clubs.

Jason Allison (16:13)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Rob Paterson (16:23)
You know just a regular golf bag. There's two or three hundred bucks now. Just nothing special about it So like everything is like through the roof expensive But you know what like invest in some of those things that are going to not only prolong your life But man just add quality and value to your life

Jason Allison (16:40)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And so that's where I just thought, you know, if we talk about pastors and getting paid and how we handle our money, you know, I know a lot of pastors have this mentality that we're supposed to be poor. And, you know, I don't really see that in scripture that, you know, a pastor, a spiritual leader has to be poor. We're not supposed to exploit the people that we serve.

You know, and anything like that. But in the same breath, I just don't see places in scripture that say we have to be, you know, these poor, you know, always begging for the next thing kind of people. It's quite the opposite, honestly. I mean, I look through scripture and I see multiple places where I mean, start in the Old Testament. God basically said, hey, take care of the priests. You know, like they are my chosen ones and they're not going to get land. So

you everyone has to chip in and make sure they have everything they need and they should never be without. So I mean, he set that precedent that that needs to happen. the other tribes, the other 11 tribes, their tithes and offerings are what supported the Levitical priesthood. So I mean, that's the Old Testament. And then you get into the New Testament and you've got Paul traveling around who

over and over says, hey, you know what? You should take care of your spiritual leaders. Like if they are giving up a job or income from any other source so that they can have time to dedicate to prayer and study so that they can serve you, then you need to support them. A couple of verses that I just ran across recently, know, 1 Corinthians 9 says,

right in the same way the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. Like it's it's OK if they get paid to do what they do. Again, not exploiting, not trying to, you know, any of that. But there's nothing wrong with that. mean, in First Timothy, he Paul talks about it. He says, hey, the the elders who direct the affairs of the church, they are worthy of it. He calls it double honor and.

You know, I... something.

Rob Paterson (18:52)
Is that two

paychecks per pay period?

Jason Allison (18:55)
That's what I'm thinking. But yeah, and I know.

Rob Paterson (18:59)
Every

pastor in America is going to be sharing this with their elder board and finance team now. Do you hear that? We think this is a solid interpretation.

Jason Allison (19:04)
Yeah

Well, yeah. And I mean, and Paul even quotes the Old Testament in that passage, right? Because he in there, he refers back to don't muzzle the ox while it's, you know, and so, yeah, the worker deserves his wages. So I there's I don't think there's any problem with a pastor being paid. Now, there are other places where Paul chooses not to be paid for different reasons. He, know, he was a tent maker. We always talk about that. And that's.

Rob Paterson (19:13)
Uhhh

Yeah, yeah, Cutting out the grain,

Jason Allison (19:34)
Co vocational by vocational. We've had a couple episodes about on that topic. We've had some people in who specialize in that and there's nothing nothing wrong with that. Again, honestly, it goes back to motive, right? Like why am I doing this? Am I getting a job outside of the church because I want things that the church can't really afford to pay me to get or now if those things that you want are like, I don't know, food on the table for your kids. OK, now we've got a whole.

Rob Paterson (20:00)
reliable transportation,

you know, whatever.

Jason Allison (20:02)
Yeah,

but like, you know, there, I get it. There are times where you have to process that and think through it. But man, if I want another job that basically, so I don't have to worry about the church being able to pay me, I think that's a gift that pastors can give to the congregations. I mean, we've talked about it before and hey, if I'm not getting my paycheck from the church.

Rob Paterson (20:22)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (20:27)
like, or maybe it's just a very small portion of my income. I, I got news for you. I might say a few things that I wouldn't say if a hundred percent of my income was solely revolving around, you know, the church, because I think I can lead a little better because I can say some of the things that need to be said that maybe I'm a little afraid to say, cause if they get mad and I get fired, I'm in trouble.

Rob Paterson (20:52)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking I was watching a reel that was a Dave Ramsey thing and he was, he was interviewing a guy who wanted to buy some car. Maybe I've even shared this before, but you know, this guy was like, Hey, I have the cash for it. You know, well, you whatever. And, Ramsey has this rule where, you know, he doesn't want all of your dumb stuff that depreciates like crazy, that has wheels and motors to be more in value than

half of your income. So you had another car. What's the value of that? And what's the value of this car? And so you added those up and it was it was really, really close. But the guy instead of making whatever he made 85,000 needed to make 90,000. And and so Ramsey asked the question, Well, how long is it going to be until you get to that 90,000 mark thinking that whatever five, seven, 10,000 bucks, whatever it was, you know, wouldn't take very long to, you know, achieve.

And the guy's like, I forget what he said, like 10 years. And he's like, 10 years to like have your income increase 10 grand. Like, holy cow. He goes, what do you do? And the guy said, I'm in the military. And he goes, that makes sense. He goes, because most people like are going to make way more money than that in over 10 years. And I'm listening to this video thinking that like when you are out in like the workplace, when you are in the business world, whatever.

Jason Allison (21:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:13)
usually just through bonuses and cost of living bumps and all that kind of stuff and even just promotions, right? Like, yeah, you're gonna see a significant, where, you know, I know a lot of pastors who A, make a very small salary if it wasn't for things like a parsonage, which is a blessing and a curse, you know, they wouldn't even be able to survive on how small their salary is.

Jason Allison (22:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:39)
And so the idea that over 10 years they could make $10,000 more. just like, like it would almost like that would sound, I think to a lot of ministry people, like you're gonna win the lottery even though you don't play it, right? Like that's cause it would just seem like I would need to be a miracle of God for my income where, you know, for most people, like their expectation and even reality is that they are gonna see those increases. And so.

Jason Allison (22:51)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (23:06)
I think that just goes back to what you were saying about like the responsibility of, if you are going to hire someone to sort of pray for you and to, help you to learn and grow and to teach you and to lead, you know, the church there, there is that responsibility. and there's times actually, we had an elders meeting recently where one of my elders, cause I was pushing for another thing than another initiative, another, actually a residency thing we're gonna, we're gonna start doing.

Here soon and I'm like we got to do this and one of one of my elders just was like, know What like because I was like I can give up if we if we get in the weeds I can give up a chunk of my salary to help mitigate against that and and one of my elders was just like I would not feel comfortable with that like you've been here for 15 years you you have time and time and time and time again said no to or like, know and again, I got

Jason Allison (23:59)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:00)
for our listeners do not feel bad for me. You my wife and I do just fine and all those things. And I'm, I'm well compensated. I'm not like complaining about that at all. But this person was like, you know, you have said no to cost of living things so that you could, you know, pay other staff people or hire someone different or whatever. So like the idea that you can, we can solve this problem potentially by you giving up, you know, some of your income is like, no, no.

Jason Allison (24:02)
Hahaha

Rob Paterson (24:30)
Cause that's not going to long-term be a healthy thing for you, for your family. And you know what? Like I think that that's not just a good, a good thing that our leaders, our elders ought to sort of have a perspective. But like, yeah, like if you are a mature Christian in a local church, like the idea that, Hey, like we want to make sure that as much as possible, we are supporting the people who are serving us in this way.

Jason Allison (24:33)
Right.

Rob Paterson (24:56)
And we are not interested in keeping them poor. We are not interested in celebrating how they're willing to suffer for the gospel, even though there may be other times and other ways that that is the case. This shouldn't be because we have intentionally held them down. here we are with all the things and they have nothing.

Jason Allison (24:59)
Great.

Yeah. I do. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, let's let's be honest, there's a cultural issue here, too. You know, what we're describing, I think, is the norm among white churches. And when I say church, I'm really talking evangelical. You know, there are some of the denominational churches, the denomination sets some of the, you know, the ceiling as well as the floor.

You know of what pastors get paid and so there's there's that's a whole different issue but among you know evangelicals especially non-denominational or even the Baptist type, you know things where every church is autonomous that becomes an issue but There is a difference between you know our white Churches and at you and I in Converge Mid-Atlantic, you know, 40 % of our churches are non-anglo so I've

been in a lot of African-American churches. And it's the culture is different there when it comes to honoring and paying your pastor. And I don't, mean, it's just the, it's almost the exact opposite of the white churches. Now, whether or not you have money in the church to pay the pastor, that's a whole different issue, right? I mean, if there's nothing in the bank, there's nothing in the bank like that. But I,

If you have money in the bank, right, and if every the financial systems are healthy And our african-american brothers and sisters They really know how to honor their their leader their spiritual leaders And so they do it differently and you know you and i've been at a church where it's almost an insult to the congregation If the pastor doesn't have the nicest car in the parking lot

And again, that's just that's a cultural thing. I'm not saying it's biblical one way or the other. It's just.

Rob Paterson (27:04)
It's why I decided I'm only going to pastor at black churches from now on.

Jason Allison (27:07)
⁓

the next church I plant will be a black church. I don't know how you do that. And I've got enough African-American brothers that I'm calling them. And when I go and I serve in an African-American church and I honor their leaders, and man, it's funny. was talking with another converged pastor.

Rob Paterson (27:11)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (27:30)
who works in the multicultural stuff. that's part of his job is to focus on that. Now he's white and my age, a little older than me. ⁓ great. Yeah, he's pretty close. But he lives in that world and actually serves on some multi-faith type things as well as the multicultural and that. And we were talking about one church that we had both been at.

Rob Paterson (27:40)
Why does Guy know?

Jason Allison (27:56)
And it was not a it was not a black church. It was a white church and One of the things that he commented to me. He said then the second time he went he said I think He said my wife said I think jason had a talk with him because the way they honored you this time was different than the first time And and there's just something about honoring Even a guest pastor or your pastor that is I don't know. It's a mindset and an attitude

Rob Paterson (28:14)
Mm.

Jason Allison (28:24)
Now, obviously pastors can kind of bask in that and act, know, they can. And that's again, it goes back to motive. You know, a lot of our African-American brothers who walk into churches and they are honored, man, they are the humblest people I know.

Rob Paterson (28:31)
Yeah.

And that's where I agree, because when you were talking, I thought to myself, I don't know, I know a few, but I don't know too many white pastors who even come close to sniffing six figures, because like, if you put their whole package together, and they're not even like in that ballpark, and I don't know, yeah, right? And I don't know too many black pastors

Jason Allison (28:57)
That's including the decimal.

Rob Paterson (29:03)
who sniff six figures, because they're so far north of it. And even with smaller churches, you know, doing that because in the cultural piece there, you know, in the black church, a lot of times people were like, we want to be as generous as humanly possible because we want our pastor to be an example of what we hope to kind of where in the white church, I think there's a lot of people who are too busy.

Jason Allison (29:07)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:28)
buying their own toys and secondary things and going on their fun vacations and the idea that they would forgo any of those things to honor their pastor so that their pastor didn't have to worry about retirement or worry about just the basic thing. I had a vehicle break, but what am I gonna do? Because I can't afford that. Just those regular common things in life. It's like, well, we can't. For example, and I hardly had.

anybody say this stuff to me anymore when I was younger I totally did but like I showed up to go fishing with somebody last year and I pulled it in my truck and in this dude like who had a nicer truck and way more expensive truck than me looked at me goes how does a pastor afford a truck like that you know like it was his question I'm just like looking at him like like what you know like I've been doing this for three decades I work at a you know not a small church I have like

Jason Allison (30:12)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (30:19)
three other jobs that pay me minuscule amounts of money, but it all adds up and my wife is gainfully employed. Like, what do you mean? How do I buy like a, like a, just like a truck, like it's, just a truck, right? But, but yeah, I just, thought it was just a funny, funny question. It's just that white culture mentality. And I think we, you know, like you said, I know a lot of white Pete white pastors who don't make a whole lot, but are super proud of how great they are. And I know a lot of black pastors who make

Jason Allison (30:30)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (30:47)
significant amounts of money, but like you said, are humble and godly and whatever. So it's trying to find a good balance between like the honor and the accountability instead of scrutiny, right? Like it's not, it shouldn't ever be scrutiny. should be accountability.

Jason Allison (30:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. That's good. No, that's

a good word right there. That it's it's not about it. It's it's it's not scrutiny. It's accountability. That's that's really good, Rob. I like that. That mindset, because again, I can scrutinize someone from a distance and kind of snipe at them. But when there's accountability, that's up close, that's personal, that's face to face. That also means I'm going to be open to their.

Feedback it, you know and and input into my life And that just changes the whole dynamic and when i've got people in my life who would say Hey, let me talk to you about the way you're you're handling your money. It doesn't matter how much it is Like hey, can I speak honestly into your life? Can I offer you some suggestions or help now? I will say generally rob when you offer that advice. It's somehow me spending money on something for you, but you know

Rob Paterson (31:57)
Hey, hey,

you know, we're just talking about honor, Jason.

Jason Allison (32:01)
hahahahah

Rob Paterson (32:03)
Hey,

so, you know, we got about 10 minutes left and I'm thinking like let's get super practical and maybe we can talk and I know I think we've been super practical the whole time. So, but I just I'm sure there are people listening in to this episode who this is an issue in some way shape or form, right? Like there's a million ways it could be but

Jason Allison (32:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:27)
You know, maybe let's talk about this. Like, what are some things like maybe if somebody is just grossly underpaid and the church does have the capacity to do more, but they just feel like, no, this is like right for you to sort of live in poverty. You know, what could somebody like that do? Or, you know, like what is the right way? Cause there is this, I mean, discipleship leadership kind of onus, I think on clergy.

And I've seen this over like, so like if we just let these expectations and realities kind of dominate us and crush us into the ground, like I would, I would say you might go off. I bought that in my culture. I'm going to get scrutinized for it. And I, and in certain instances I might go, yeah, that's just a dumb thing. Don't do that. And in other instances, I might go, you know what? Like your culture needs to see a good example of somebody.

buying slash owning one of these things who can afford it and is doing it for the right reasons. And so like you might have to take some heat along the way, but you could also set an example of this is not a status symbol. This is not, you know, all the things that everyone thinks it might be. This is just a tool and that's how I'm going to treat it. And you know, whatever. So, I mean, I think there's just a lot of things here and do you have any thoughts there? I I got some kicking around.

Jason Allison (33:44)
Yeah, well, I mean, the first first thing I think you set up a really good framework to have the conversation either with your spouse, with yourself, with the trust, you know, that the first question, why am I purchasing this if it's about purchasing something? Is it for status? And am I willing to acknowledge that? Or is it because it's actually a strong investment, you know, a strong use of the resources that I have? And so like, you know, my vehicle that I'm debating

keep it, change, get a new one. What does that look like? I'm thinking of it purely from a stewardship side of things. And so I want to invest in something that I don't have to think about for the next five years. I don't want to have to worry that it's going to break down. Because I've got two kids, I've got grandkids, I've got things that I don't need to be constantly fixing my car. And so that's one thing I would say.

For the very first thing you were talking about, maybe they're in a situation where they're not getting paid what is honestly an honorable wage. Like they're getting underpaid significantly. First thing I would do, I'd call somebody, I don't know, like the churchtalkproject.com and say, reach out and say, hey, would you come help me have this conversation with the leadership? Like help me frame it. Because I think the conversation is going to be different in every context.

There are some where the chairman of the finance committee or whatever it is needs to be kicked in the nuts because they're just hoarding things. Right. I mean, they're just being a jerk and they need to be smacked. There are others. There are other situations where they need a gentle reminder that, this is it's not 1953 anymore. Right. You know, ten thousand dollars is not a healthy annual salary like.

that you know, so sometimes it's just a little growth. It's a little this sometimes it's a smack in the head. Sometimes it's even, you know, more drastic. And honestly, sometimes you may need to evaluate, gosh, can I afford to work at this, you know, church at this congregation if they're going to treat me that way? At what point am I dishonoring myself by putting myself into that situation? Those are my first thoughts.

Rob Paterson (35:55)
Yeah,

that's so good. And I just want to echo what you said, because I think it's... So like in my situation, I went from a church that I'd planted of less than 100 people and came to a church here north of 400 people. my whatever went up like 400%. Now, again, was debt, was like things, there was existing staff and all that kind of stuff. But in that transition, I actually...

lost more than $10,000 of income. I actually made more than 10,000 less at the church of 400 plus than I did at the church of less than 100. And again, I've never said yes or no to a ministry assignment based on the salary package, at least solely or even primarily. It's always been, hey, is this what God wants me to do? And if we can survive, then we'll figure it out. But over a number of years, we actually had our regional person

come in and thankfully the churches, heart was always, the leader's heart was always, hey, we'd give you the world if we could. And they literally meant that. So that helped in the process as opposed to control or lording things. But really over a number of years, with help and guidance from some of our regional people and really people like us.

Jason Allison (37:01)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:15)
you know, coming in and who they were known and respected and whatever. And it's like, Hey, listen, this really is, is significantly light for your size of church for, you know, like for the, the experience of your past or all the things. And, and even if making that right, it has a negative impact on some other staff and you have to cut somebody or change something looking after your, you know, like my job is to look after my team, right? Like I'm going to.

Jason Allison (37:24)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:45)
But like their job was to make sure I was looked after and they did. It took a number of years, but we kind of righted that chip. So yes, we got to have people coming in from the outside. And I would say too, if you are young, if you're in your 20s or 30s and you're experiencing a lot of kind of pushback and stuff from.

Jason Allison (37:53)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:09)
like purchases, you maybe you have a luxury brand car, even though it's like 10 years old or whatever, like Jason and I both have sort of discussed with ourselves, you know, and you're getting scrutiny. I'd say two things. One is, if you're a humble person and are buying those things for the right reasons, not the wrong ones, in your 40s and 50s, that will all but go away.

And if it doesn't, you're probably in a pretty unhealthy environment. again, I've never purchased one of those things to say, hey, look at what I have. I don't care if anybody else knows when I buy something like that, it's cause you know, it's what fits me. It's what I want. It's what works. It's like a good deal. really, I've made it like comparable to what something reasonable would be, you know? And then I, you know, I'm not gonna not do something that

is going to benefit or bless me because of what someone else might think. So there's got to be like, we've got to, we can't just go, no, people are going to think so I'm never going to. I do think there has to be some kind of middle ground, some kind of tension where if there's a good reason to do this, or good reasons and your spouse is on board and you can, you know, like there's, it's okay sometimes to go,

Jason Allison (39:10)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:24)
This is the direction we're going to go. know people are going to be weird, but people are always weird and

Jason Allison (39:26)
Yeah.

Well, so that comes to mind one quick thing. I know we're about to wrap up, but like vacations like that, that's a thing where I've heard that before. you're going to whatever, you know, and and I know there's a point at which, you know, my kids, we didn't take a lot of vacations because honestly, you know, I planted a church. We we just didn't have the money. I mean, it wasn't we did a couple and did some here and there, but like we just didn't have the money to do big vacations.

Rob Paterson (39:37)
Hmm. ⁓

Jason Allison (39:57)
But man, at one time we did go to Disney with my mom because my dad had passed away and he had left, there was an inheritance, my mom said for the last 10 years she hadn't been able to travel at all because she was taking care of him. And she was like, I want to take you and the kids and I want to have a good time. And so we did. And that was one of those things where it's like,

If anyone asks me, whoa, you spent a week at blah, blah, know, and I'm like, yeah, my dad died. You know, like that's a, you know, there's a time where you can. But I think also there's times where it's like, you know what? I took a vacation. How many vacations did you take this year? You know, like, I mean, a lot of. Yeah, exactly.

Rob Paterson (40:39)
Yeah. Or in the last 10 years, like I took two in the last 10

and you've taken two a year for last 10. Like let's talk about how much we've spent. Yeah.

Jason Allison (40:46)
Right. so. Yeah,

and but those are things where you are investing in yourself and your family. And I feel like any time you're investing in your family and in you, it is money well spent. Now, you can be stupid about it like we've already talked about. But I would say any time you're trying to prioritize spending your resources on making sure you and your family are healthy, then I say go for it. You know.

One real quick thing too about the salary of the pastor I was thinking as you were talking, the way I've often when I'm working with churches and they're asking some of this, I usually bring up replacement value. And because I'm now also working with chemistry staffing and we've got these churches who come in and they want this top of the line pastor, but the previous person had been there 10 years, they'd never given him a raise and he started under what the

you know, a living wage was and all of a sudden they're shocked that no one wants to come work at their church. And so what I try to tell boards, especially is I don't care what you think this current pastor is worth. Think about what the position is worth. Stop personalizing it. What is the position worth? If you had to go hire someone today, how much would it cost you to hire someone, you know, just to do what you're

And then start figuring out what to pay, you know, the pastor who's in this place. And and when I think I've mentioned this before, but one of the easiest things I found to figure out what a good compensation level is. Generally, I look at the school systems in the area and, know, if you're a church of three to five hundred or more, you know, you're you're looking at what is the superintendent of schools make for this district? You know, maybe it's the principal, whatever, but.

You know, you've got to think about that's that's kind of a comparable thing, right? And if you're looking at a youth pastor or, you know, children's pastor or associate pastor, you know, what is a vice principal or a tenured teacher? Those are some of the examples that I'll use to help at least find the ballpark. I mean, it's not a one for one ratio there, but it's a good starting point.

Rob Paterson (42:58)
Yeah, so a couple quick things as we wrap when you said that I thought of this like church reached out to me about a year ago to say hey would you and And again, I feel like I'm well compensated. It was a much wealthier church than my church It was in a much larger area, but I mean their starting range was about forty thousand dollars more Than my what after fifteen years would I make so, you know again, I feel like I am

Jason Allison (43:24)
Right. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (43:27)
but to know that I could make a somewhat lateral move and increase my household income by $40,000, that's a significant thing. So I think sometimes as people in ministry, we think small because our environments have been small and we do need to think a little bit bigger. And then one last thing that is kind of like, it depends on our heart, which is what it all boils down to. But at times in my life, especially my late 20s, early 30s when I,

Jason Allison (43:36)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (43:56)
started to maybe do some things or have enough courage to buy some things that I really wanted and could use, but then people would ask me questions. One of the things that I always wanted to say is awesome. Before we have this conversation, let's sit down and look at my giving relative to my income and your giving relative to your income. And then we can, when we talk about what we're doing, you know, in terms of our faithfulness to God, then let's talk about what we're doing with the 85 or 90 % that's left.

Jason Allison (44:12)
you

Yes.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (44:26)
You

know, but if, but if I'm giving faithfully and you barely scratched the surface, but you want to call into question it now we can do that with a bad heart, right? Just to want to do to someone else what they have done to us. but, but I think that, know, like there is some of this tension that we've got to live in. It's like, Hey, if I'm faithful and I'm generous and I'm sacrificial and I want to do something with sort of my remaining,

Jason Allison (44:36)
course.

Rob Paterson (44:53)
that you may not like agree with, like who cares? Like how do you want, do you want me as your pastor to come over to your place and say, what about this and this and this and this? Probably not. And I, nor would I do that. So again, I, know, there's just all these tensions with this and, and listen to me, a high level leader in local church, pastor in a local church, just try to try your best to, as your daily connecting with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to keep your heart tender, to keep your heart good.

Jason Allison (44:57)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (45:23)
you know, continue to love people even though they do and say some dumb things sometimes that are hurtful. You know, continue to love them well and they will grow and this too will get better.

Jason Allison (45:32)
Yeah.

Yeah. And something you pointed out there, this assumes that you are being generous and sacrificial in the way you are giving to the ministry that God has given you. so until you are being generous, then maybe you need to start there. And once you know you're giving at a level that God has called you to give, then the rest of your resources, use them, enjoy them. That's God wants us to.

Rob Paterson (45:51)
Mm.

Jason Allison (46:02)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (46:02)
Yeah.

And just cause you get underpaid is not a reason to not give. You know what? I, I, I did that once in my twenties. I'm like, well, we make, did, we made like nothing. We couldn't hardly live. We couldn't hardly go to Aldi's and afford even enough groceries to survive on. And so that was in my mind until my wife, at one point, she's like, Hey, I haven't seen like any checks in the checkbook here recently. And I just, Oh my gosh, it was like the spirit of God just like hit me in the head with a sledgehammer. And I'm like, yep.

Jason Allison (46:06)
Bingo.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep, fine.

Well, we'd love to hear from you and maybe what you think about some of this and any experiences you've had. We just love to hear that and talk with you sometime. Feel free to reach out. We hope you're having an amazing week and we look forward to talking to you again soon. Take a minute and share the podcast, like and subscribe and all those fun things. And we'll talk to you soon.

Rob Paterson (46:32)
So.