The Grind of Pastoring

 Join Rob and Jason as they explore the messiness of ministry, personal health, and maintaining boundaries. They share candid insights on handling life's challenges, the importance of long-term discipline, and practical tips for pastors to sustain their calling.

 resources

The Contemplative Pastor by Eugene Peterson

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Church Talk Podcast
01:40 Personal Health Journey and Reflections
06:00 The Long-Term Process of Health and Growth
11:51 Spiritual Growth and the Grind of Ministry
17:40 Consumerism in Church and Ministry Expectations
20:27 Navigating the Messiness of Ministry Relationships
21:21 The Value of Ministry Work vs. Other Professions
23:08 The Challenges of Ministry and Relationship Building
26:37 Navigating the Messiness of Ministry
30:41 Finding Balance and Healthy Boundaries
37:07 Setting Boundaries for Longevity in Ministry

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason. Man, we are so glad that you are taking a few minutes today to listen, whatever this day happens to be to you. Obviously, we're recording this prior to you hearing. It'd be cool if we could just, you know, live stream right into your car or your iPhone or whatever it is you listen on. But yeah, we don't do that. We're we're not quite that intrusive yet. But it is fun because, you know, as of as the when you listen to this, the YouTube channel will have launched. So uh you might, you know, you might actually get to see us, like what we look like. And I'm sorry. I really don't know what else to say.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

But um we do need to apologize excessively, you know, uh not like that, it just needs to become a new show segment where we just apologize that people can't find and see us from this point going forward.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

So hey, Rob, before we dive into anything overly serious, I I I have I I want to ask you something or or talk to you about something. So I uh just a couple weeks ago, I decided, you know what? I have been eating basically like crap for years, and I'm gonna do something about it. Now, I don't want to do something so drastic that I won't actually do it. You know what I mean? Like let let's let's be smart. Let's do it. So I downloaded an app for my phone where I track what I eat, so I actually log what I'm eating. And and not because I'm obsessive, compulsive, have to, but I mean, just so here's what I'm learning as I do this. First of all, I'm learning that, man, I to I want to eat instead of being bored. Like I if I'm idle, I just think, oh, I should grab something. I should go, yeah. I'm not hungry. I just want to be doing something, right? And uh so I I'm learning that about myself. I'm also learning that I don't like my body to feel uncomfortable as in hungry. And so I eat like prophylactically, like I oh, I better eat something so that I don't get whatever. And I'm like, you know what? I think I it's okay to get hungry. It's okay to, you know, to not have everything right in front of you. And and I mean, I'm I didn't my doctor didn't tell me to do well, my doctor tells me to do this every time I see him, but but you know, it's not like I was, you know, morbidly obese or something. I'm not, you know, it's not that. It's just one of those, you know what? I I just I need to take so I you know, you've gone through different, I I I don't even like diets because I'm not dieting, I'm just watching what I eat. Uh it's not a I'm I'm increasing, like I've been eating fruit. I that's just crazy. I didn't use that. It doesn't sound like you. I know, I know, but uh, you know, I'm putting aside the the sweet snacks and just eating some fruit. And so anyway, I I've been doing that, you know, for for a week or so as of this recording, and I'm just learning stuff about myself. And and I'm not saying everybody else needs to do what I'm doing. I'm just saying there is something about limiting yourself that really forces you to reflect, forces you to think about wait a minute, maybe everything in my life, you know, I I need to at least stop and think through. Have you had that kind of experience when you've done different, you know, I know you've done some exercise regimens, but especially with the health stuff that you've had to deal with with your hip and everything, you've had to, you know, be disciplined about some of that. I don't know. I I just I was thinking about that before, right before we hit record, and I thought, man, I we we should talk about that for a second.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Yeah, you know, as you say this, there's like a whole, you know, waterfall of thoughts that are cascading into my mind right now. So anytime that I have sort of gotten serious, yeah, I've I you know, there are things that we learn even beyond, you know, trying to be healthier, more mindful, you know, all those things. Like I am, if all you care about is the number on the scale, you know, that's not gonna happen quickly. But I am always amazed at how within a week or two, how much better I feel, how much less bloated I feel, you know, when I'm when I'm intentional. When you were sharing that, I thought back to like when I was a kid, a lot of times my mom, I would say, I'm hungry, and she'd go, No, you're poor. She would say those words to me, which were so true in a way that I didn't understand back then. I remember having a ministry intern one summer, and Bethany and I would go grocery shopping and we'd, you know, buy hundreds of dollars worth of groceries. And literally, like the intern would, I don't know, every 35 minutes walk to our fridge and just open it up and stand there and like look through. And if we got anything that was nice, like cheeses or meats or whatever, they would just, I mean, within a day or so, those would all be gone because they would just like you know, bore bore and it's not like they didn't have things to do. It's like I was giving them plenty of stuff to do, but it's like, oh, well, I got a second, I'm a little bit bored, I'm gonna just walk to the fridge and eat, because that's what you know, growing teenage boys tend to do, which again is not at all good. The so I again I I I want to stress this how much better you can feel and how much progress you can make quickly if you're just mindful and intentional. So, because I think a lot of us don't get started because we're like, I have too much work to do, it's gonna take me too long. And it will, it will, it's gonna take you a long, long, long, long, long time. It's like Liam, we he got braces yesterday. We went to a free consult and walked out with braces, which was kind of a funny thing. The place was so amazing because we were like, we're gonna check this out. And I we think our insurance might cover a different place that we had an appointment for, like in over a month from now. And the place was just so incredible. And like we were just like, they're gonna give us the best care. It's gonna cost us thousands of dollars, but it's like you know, have getting our kid the best care and a great experience and all those things, you know, is we just decided it's worth it. So we and they're like, okay, we can put the braces on right now. And we're like, what? And they're like, anytime we do a consultation, we leave we make sure there's room for both if if somebody wants to move forward, which was actually so nice that we didn't have to, you know, go back and forth. So I had a tie with this, Jason, that again, I I got so into thinking about the braces.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I well the braces with the braces, I mean, that's a long-term process.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, that's yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. You know, like he his and he has like one tooth in there. We didn't even know about this, that literally is like turned sideways, so instead of facing, so that tooth has to be spun around. And and and but they were literally like, okay, this is going to take us 22 months. 22 months from now, his smile's gonna be where we want it to be. This all these things are gonna happen. And I mean, might it take 21 or 23? Yes, but like basically a couple years of of slight, and I think that's what getting healthy ultimately looks like. It literally is a process of months and years, not of days and weeks. Right, and so that matters. The other thing that I I think of a lot is seasons of my life where I have been dialed in, you know, I've I've been at my quote unquote fighting weight, I felt good, I'm eating well, I'm moving my body and exercising. I am physically healthy, but man, I get really like internally, mentally speaking, judgmental about people who aren't healthy and who, you know, like, and I'm like, why don't you just do the work? Why don't you even though I've had these huge seasons of my life where I haven't done the work where I've struggled with this, like, but when I'm doing it, and and I think there's some spiritual application there too, right? Because sometimes we in ministry who are, you know, in church every week, I mean, we're honestly it's our job, so we kind of sort of get paid to do that, but we're in church every week, we're praying the prayers, we're we you know, we're reading the Bible, we're we're doing all the things, right? And and sometimes, if we're being honest, when people are like, Oh, I can't do that. I'm going on my third vacation this year, and we we, you know, like there's this sense that we want to kind of roll our eyes, hopefully not on the outside. And and I just wish you loved Jesus more or were more committed. You know, we we will think those words sometimes we will even say those words. I use the we in the royal sense, you know. I I I know a lot of people aren't, but we there is this sense of like disappointment, and and it and if we were gonna put words to it, we'd probably say something like, I wish, I just wish you were took this more seriously and did better. And and I so I think there's just a sense in which like the things that we are putting energy and effort into doing well, we we all just kind of develop a little bit of a low grade, you know, disappointment that others aren't doing that as well, when we really probably should have greats and humility.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah, yeah, that that is true. Um, I was I was talking to a pastor yesterday, I actually preached at their church a couple weeks ago, and I took them through a couple of you know training things and whatever. And he he called me, and this is it's a small church, uh, it's an old church, and and you know, they've been through the life cycle of a church probably two or three times. They're that old, you know, we're talking 150 years old. And uh, and he was talking to me and and he he said, you know, I'm trying to figure out what tools do I really use? When do I know if it's a good tool or a bad tool? When do I know, you know, all this stuff. He said, because like he said, I did this thing that uh, you know, Converge, the organization that we're connected with. You know, they they put all this effort into doing this thing, and it's with like Wheaton College and University, like I mean, it's a big organized national blah, blah, blah. And he said, so I went along with it and it was about evangelism and so forth. And he said, it was a two-year process, and I took my people through it. You know, like I I preached the sermons they told me to. I did everything. And he said, we got zero response after two years of doing this. Nothing. And he said, I I don't know if is it that the program was bad or good? Did I do it? What you know, he was really wrestling with why can't we? And I, you know, I told him, I was like, well, first of all, you can't you can't programmatize evangelism, right? I mean, it it it has to be something that your you and your people have a heart for, where you actually care about the people around you and you just want to share Jesus with them. You know, the tools and the systems and all the stuff that they, you know, that they gave you are really just to help facilitate where your heart is, not in and of themselves, you know, effective. And and and I've kind of feel like this whole thing about tracking what I'm eating, you know, you're talking about braces, that all of this is this idea of, you know what, that this whole thing is an investment of my time, my energy, but it really reveals my heart in all of this, right? Like, like I I wanna, I want my heart to be exactly what God's heart is. And so that means really and truly, the most important work I can do is staying connected to the vine, right? Abiding in Christ. Because then when my heart is pointed in the right direction, then I can put up with some of the difficulties, the setbacks, the discomfort that I, you know. And so when my heart desires to just feel healthier and to, you know, then I can deal with the fact that my stomach actually grumbles now, right? I mean, I I I haven't had that in in a while. And I was like, oh, that's ridiculous, you know. But but I mean, like, it's okay to go through a time when you're a little bit hungry. And and so, and in the same breath with Liam, he's gonna go through two years and it's not gonna be comfortable. Like, I mean, it's not gonna be constant pain, but I had braces and they still now that was a couple of years ago.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Very uncomfortable today. I bet.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

I bet his teeth were sore and yeah, and every time they tighten those wires or whatever, it's like that for a couple of days. And, you know, and in ministry, we're gonna try some things, do some things that just don't pan out exactly right, or maybe they're you look at it and you're like, oh, do you know how much work it's gonna be to get everyone on board with this? How about we just keep doing what we're doing? And uh, you know, and and so I was just thinking those are things that I think a lot of pastors, especially right now, because we're heading into summer. And for for pastors, that either means things slow down or in some regions things speed up. Like, but it's not just a especially if you're a youth guy, right? Oh, if you're a youth and children, you are probably getting stressed out right about now between camps and events and blah, blah, blah. And so I don't know. I I was just thinking the slog of ministry. We need to understand that it's okay if you are not comfortable all the time in ministry. That doesn't mean you're failing and it doesn't mean you're not called to it. It just means sometimes ministry is messy.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah. So interestingly, this month, June, we are doing a series at my church called Drive Through Jesus. And it's uh the the big idea is all about how we live in a world where all of us want everything instantly, right? So, like the idea of I want to be close to God now. I want to uh, you know, I mean, it's if you live in some parts of the world, you could literally order an Amazon package and have it delivered same day. You know, people are like, well, why would I save up and pay cash for that six months from now when I could just put it on my credit card and pay 27% interest, you know? And it's like, did you hear what you just said? Like, you know, like uh the desire to have things right now, it's so great in our world. But, you know, kind of like an idea I've been like playing with is this like, man, somebody could literally spend 24 straight hours praying and fasting, you know, and honestly at the end of that grand gesture, be virtually no closer to Jesus at all. But man, you like in an earnest way, you crack and read your Bible, you know, every day, you pray every day, even for 15 or 30 minutes for a whole year, and and you're gonna move the needle significantly, right? It's it's it's uh Eugene Peterson's that long obedience in the same direction, you know, is just so important. But we want things now. Like, so for me, when I when I exercise, like seriously, like I remember times in my life where I've gone out for days with my backpack on my back and hiked, you know, tens of miles over trails. And you know what? Like, uh, when I get thirsty, like which is real thirst, it's not I'm bored, so I'm gonna go grab something to drink because I will I will do that, just like you talked about with food. But it's like, man, water when you're actually thirsty tastes amazing. Some people are like, I don't want to drink water, that's boring, right? Well, that's because you're bored, you're not thirsty, you're bored. Yeah. And so I love that. One of the things, too, that I think we might address, like one of the weeks of the series, that uh I was talking to my youth guy about, and uh, he might preach the last week of the series, and so he was talking about this, and it's so interesting. He said one of the things he's read about like all these peptides and GLP1s that people are taking now for weight loss, is it actually in some people, like, and I think it does it a little bit in everybody, but like will rewire like your cravings and your desires, and that it actually one of the unintended negative consequences is that there are people who have literally gotten divorced because they didn't just stop craving food, they stopped craving anything. And so, like, I don't really desire intimacy, relationship, connection. It literally rewired that, and it's actually having a negative impact on relationships too. And and so here's the thing like when I do stuff, like I actually want to be thirsty. When I'm hungry and like I see a delicious, well-marbled ribeye steak, and I start salivating, like seriously, that's some of the best stuff in life, right? That we never really experience unless we truly get hungry and do things like the right way. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, and and this kind of dovetails into something we were talking about before we hit record, you know, not only those programs and practices and all that stuff that just takes a long obedience in the same direction, but dealing with just the the grind of everyday life. Like that's the thing. I I I I I've been reading uh a book called How Did We Get Here, and it's by Todd Wilson, and uh it's about the church growth movement and and everything over the last 70 years or so and and you know, the different things that happened and so forth. But we've we c we've come to see and expect that as a pastor, our church should be huge and it should be, you know, the attendant should be up and to the right all the time. Like that's become the normal uh expectation and success, you know, is defined by that. And it's be and in the process, we've created a a consumer Christian because and and we just we it started in a good way saying, hey, we're in a consumeristic culture, and so we need to meet people where they're at, uh and and yet the problem is the AW Tozer quote, uh, you know, what you win them with, you win them to. And so when we're just creating a different kind of consumer, which means they want everything right now. I I want to be spiritual right now, but I also realize, you know what, I'm in church one hour, maybe two hours a week. The other, you know, hundred out hundred plus hours, I am not in this space where everything's set up for me to be spiritual. And I'm learning I'm just not that spiritual, and it's too much work. I don't want to do it. And so all of a sudden, and then we as pastors, like you kind of alluded to this, we're paid to be good, right? I mean, we we we have to do this stuff because it's our job.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

And everybody else is good for nothing as you let go.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Exactly. But man, being good for nothing is not as fun because it's yeah, and so we've got just just this day-in and day out grind and messiness in ministry, right? It's it's not neat and uh really cool all the time, but there are days when I mean it's just ministry, it's just normal day. It's not exciting, you know, and and I think we've built this anticipation of man, in ministry, it should be exciting, the spirit's moving nonstop. And that's just not the way it is. Um, and and we were talking about you know, relationships being like that as well. Relationships in ministry, relationships in marriage, how and we, you know, you and I joke that people spend way too much time planning the wedding, but they don't plan the marriage, you know. Yeah. And and we're as pastors, we're generally the ones that are stuck cleaning up that mess, right? Because things happen. And you were sharing kind of a story of some some people that you've had to deal with, you know, that are in that kind of thing. But as pastors, man, the messiness of just everyone else's mess gets thrown onto us. And we have to figure out how to how to navigate that and live that without becoming just as messy, you know, or or and so forth. So I don't know, I don't know where if you want to share just a 30-second highlight of kind of what what that story, because I don't I don't want to mess up confidentiality or anything like that. But I just I just know like, man, that messiness, it just gets all over you, and it's really hard to keep yourself out of it.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah, and and you know what, let me maybe this is valuable, maybe it isn't, but let me I want to muddy the waters even more here. Perfect. Uh before I kind of caricaturize like my current thing because because this is something that like everyone listening, if you're a pastor in a local church, you are dealing with this, have dealt with this, and will deal with this, all three, right? Like in some way, shape, or form, whether it's like severe, moderate, you know, or or even just sort of slight. Um but you know, I've thought about this a lot lately in that like um there's another podcast that I've been listening a lot to, and actually you and I have talked about it a little bit, but it's you know, three famous people do it, and uh they make a gazillion dollars doing it, and they make a gazillion dollars doing all their other stuff too. And and and yet, like in in listening to them just talk and share about their lives, like I start thinking, you know what? Like being a famous person in some ways is a lot like being a pastor, right? Like there's there is some sometimes some inherent flexibility and downtime, but hopefully you steward and manage that well because there's a lot of uptime and on time where you've got to sort of be, you know, you've got to be on it and ready to go. You know, like so. If you're an actor and you know, you need to be ready to deliver your lines and to become that character or to make that commercial or whatever it is that you do. The big difference is, you know, those people get paid tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and sometimes millions of dollars to do the things that people in ministry sometimes get paid virtually nothing to do, even though I would argue that what we contribute. And create is actually so much more helpful and valuable to others in the world. And then we and then a lot of times we also feel bad about anything we do get. Like, oh, now I feel guilty because my church can't really afford me or whatever. And so maybe I should get a different job too, in order to have four jobs. And you know, like, I mean, there's just all those things. So we just I think we just live in such a mixed up and backward world. So, because it makes sense, right? Like it makes sense if somebody was paying you and me $20 million in the next movie role that we had, you know, we needed to have a have six-pack abs instead of the keganators that we have, you know, we needed to like have like noticeable bulging biceps, all those things. You know what? For 20 million bucks, we would pay like trainers, yeah, really, really good money to like whip us into shape, and we would be like super committed because you know what? 20 million dollars is super motivating. Uh, we wouldn't, you know, be good for nothing at that point. We'd be doing good things because we're getting paid to do them. So, you know, but one of the interesting things that I think just adds that extra layer for all of us. And I like I told you, there's a couple, um, you know, I always tell every couple whose wedding I officiate that, you know, I could care less if I officiate. I mean, like Eugene Peterson says, he's like, I can do a wedding in 20 minutes with my eyes shut, but a marriage, a successful marriage, takes year after year of alert, wide-eyed attention. And so for me, I'm like, listen, like, I can promise you that the words will be great, the ceremony will be beautiful, all that stuff. But what I want to work on is we work toward your wedding day is helping give you guys tools to be successful. And I tell everybody, if I ever see like on social media, it's complicated, separated, divorced, and I haven't heard from you, like there's gonna be I I'm gonna show up on doorsteps. Like, this is how serious this is. Because all I really care about is is successful lasting marriages. And and and so, you know, with that, you know, people actually take me up on what I've sort of said and or threatened. And currently I've, you know, there's a couple whose wedding I officiated, uh, and I actually woke up this morning with three missed calls and like four text messages, but jumped into a meeting and then we had this recording. And so, you know, after we are done, um, they are my next sort of reaching back out and seeing what's up type of a thing. And, you know, the there's all the jokes out there, right? There's all the jokes out there about, oh, you know, you work one day a week and and those things with people in ministry. And you know what? There there might be one or two weeks a year that literally feel like that. It's like, you know, nobody really needed me. I could, I could like rest, I could pray, I could prep, I could work ahead. Hopefully we're stewarding those very like you know, seldom weeks well, so that we're ready for, you know, all the all the stuff that that will come and is coming. But you know what? Like the thing that people don't understand is beyond just all the regular things that everybody expects from us, there are frequent things that blow up, whether that's someone's health has gone sideways, there's been a diagnosis, someone's in the hospital and it's not looking good, you know, they may not pull out of this one. There is a couple that we we have journeyed with and know well who is in desperate need if this marriage is gonna survive. Like, you know, there are things that happen with a lot of kind of frequency in the ministry world that might take an extra 8, 10, 12, 15 hours out of a day and or a week on top of all the stuff. I mean, you know, if you like never one time have you or I ever showed up at a church on a Sunday and said, hey, the sermon's really gonna be terrible today. Because I I prepared it in 10 minutes because I literally had 20 hours of of unexpected emergencies I had to deal with this week. Like nobody ever says that. But sometimes it's true. And but you know, so like everybody expects the sermon to be great, everybody expects you to show up whenever they have a thing, everybody expects the words are gonna be great for the child dedications and the baptisms and the you know, and the weddings and the funerals and all the things, right? Not understanding that there is just need and stuff non-stop all the time. And and and I like you said, when you say the slog of ministry, like I mean, that's it's like it's a slog, and then someone dumps gasoline on top of you and sets you on fire, and you're still supposed to sort of like, you know, kind of faithfully take step by step. And sometimes it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Well, yeah, I and so I, you know, over the last year, I have stepped away from pastoring a local church to a more a regional job that it's just different. It's still ministry, it's still pastoring. I'm just I'm pastoring pastors, and I don't have a local congregation, you know, that I'm I I bump into at Kroger and I, you know, all the stuff that in a local ministry setting, a lot of what you just described, you know, happens. And it's interesting to me because I have grown, I just have so much appreciation now and love for local pastors because what they do is so uncelebrated, right? It is so I just expected and and normalized. Oh no, that's just what you do. It's not hard. It's you know, no, no, no, no, no. It is an invaluable part of the community that you play, right? And and I just I I really want pastors to know that dealing with the messiness of ministry uh in the moment can feel like you're having, you know, gasoline dumped on you while you're sitting in a dumpster, right? You know, just waiting for that match to get tossed in. But I I mean, what you're doing is really what kingdom work is. Not because your church is growing or not growing, not because you're the biggest church in town or the smallest church or any of that stuff. What you're doing in caring for people is the most important thing that that we can do as pastors, as leaders. And yeah, dealing with those relationships that go sour or that, you know, like that can that can be difficult to to navigate. But man, I've just gained such an appreciation for the local pastor. And I I don't mean the leader, the CEO, the, I mean just the pastor that lives with his or her people and cares about them and walks with them through life. That to me is such a beautiful thing. And and we don't celebrate that enough. But I also know it's a difficult thing and a hard thing because of all the relationships and all the things that get messy. And I'm just curious, like for Rob, for you, as you're, as you deal with like this one example you just gave, right? What are some things that help you navigate the the complexity and the messiness of that and maintain sanity, right, in in the rest of your life? Because you basically that there's an old uh, there's an old, I guess it'd be a legend or myth or whatever, but growing up in Kentucky, right? The out in the out in the eastern part of Kentucky where you get the head of the holler and all that stuff, uh, there's kind of this thing where they had a a legend of the sin eater. And the idea was there's this one person who lives on their own, out in the middle, you know, in a cabin, everyone's scared of them, you know, all this stuff. But when there's a major issue in the in the little town, right, they come into town, they prepare this meal for this person, and they basically cast whatever the negative thing, right, that they're dealing with in this little town. They kind of put it onto the this food, and this guy comes in, that crazy wild guy that nobody you know knows, wants to be close to, they they eat this meal and then they take it back out into the wilderness, and they're called the sin eater. They absorb, right, all the negative, whatever. And I think as pastors, we can easily become that, where we absorb all of the negative from the relationships of the people in our church, from you know, just the stuff they're dealing with, the the tragedy, right, that you you talked about, the all those things. I I'm just curious, what do you do to help mitigate the just the the weight of that?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Well, I mean, one easy answer is on my day off this week. You and I have sort of talked for a long time about how little golf that we have played together. And uh, I just want our listeners to know this Friday, Friday's my day off. This Friday, you and I are playing golf. So that's there's one thing that helps, right? Like having friends and having hobbies and just having things we can go do that take a little bit of time and allow us to breathe is something that needs to be a part of your your weekly rhythm. You just gotta find some things that give you an hour here or there. You know, that that you you're just disconnected. And uh and and so uh, but no, I you know, Jason, when you were talking just a minute ago and kind of celebrating local church pastors and just the role they play and the relationships that they have, you know, developed and kind of the messiness that they lean into. I'm here's what I'm guessing. And and it's easy for you to see this right on the other side, or you know, some people are a little older, a little more seasoned, can maybe even see this in the middle of it. But you know, I I suspect some of our listeners heard that and and felt guilty, not like encouraged, because they're like, there's that person that called me three days ago or three weeks ago that I haven't gotten back to, and I've just because I've just been so crushed. There's you know, this crisis and emergency, I don't know what to do or how to deal with it. You know, and so they're like, yeah, like most of most of those ministry people are really great people, but I am failing, and there's too many things that slip through the cracks, and I've just been terrible at relationships in this season. So I want I want to say this, and I think that this is this is really important. It's why ministry longevity matters. It's why like people staying in ministry for not just a few years but decades. Um, because you know, none of none of this work and none of these relationships are because any of us are like super relationship builder people. And so, you know, we just sort of cared perfectly for people, you know, over the the last two years and we have great relationships and know everything about everyone. That's just not realistic. Like, I I'm the first person to say things and people and situations fall through the cracks all the time. It's not what I want. Uh, we're we're constantly thinking about and trying to mitigate against that. But you know what? Like, I cannot deal with everything. I cannot help everyone. And um, I I couldn't do it even if I wanted to kill myself, but certainly I could not do it in a way where I also, you know, had a great family that loved and cared about Jesus and was even a little bit healthy physically and all those things, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

So I do think the relationships we build, I have lots of great relationships in my church, but I like I'm literally weeks away from coming in on having been here for 15 years. So, you know, 15 years worth of interactions and and time together and doing fun things or in a crisis or whatever, you know, gives you lots and lots and lots of touch points with lots and lots of people. So I think that's really important. I would also say, and these are not gonna be like popular, but I d I think, you know, it's either we live our lives or our lives will live us, you know, and it's that thing we've we've discussed before. You know, have have you kind of have the last 10 years been 10 different years, or have you just lived the same year 10 times and it's it's just you know, same stuff, different day type of thing? So for me, a couple things that are super helpful in a moment where it's like my tendency is to answer or respond, knowing that I can't, knowing I don't have the time, knowing that even to start getting into this right this second, when maybe six hours or tomorrow morning, I could do it and I could probably do it well and be helpful. But if I if I sort of jump in because I'm essential in that like moment, I'm not gonna be helpful. I might make things worse. So, like, really like understanding that just because in this moment someone's like, I have a crisis and I need you. It's like not everybody's emergency is my emergency, you know, in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

And I know, I know a lot of times in ministry, we really are like, it makes us feel good to be needed and necessary, but I'm telling you, like, you need to help. We all need to help people understand that Jesus is the one that's needed and necessary, and that they can they have access to him on their own, and we're we we are will be present and are present, but that just might not mean like the the second you call. It might mean this afternoon or tomorrow or in a couple days. And then the another simple one for me is that you know, my phone goes on do not disturb mode at nine at night, and it stays on do not disturb mode until noon the next day, and that allows me to sleep. You know, it it used to be somebody would like text or call me at two or three in the morning because you know, and you know, and and we have mechanisms in legit crazy emergencies, like, you know, I need to be there in 30 minutes to pray with someone because they're gonna go see Jesus. Like, you know, we have those kinds of things in place too. But, you know, like if if I don't if I don't actually get any sleep at night, you know, I'm I'm dead for a day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

And that's not helpful. And then in the morning, I try to like get things done, you know, that I need focus and concentration for that if my email and my phone is non-stop going off, I can't do. So, you know, like and and I know like, and you've you've even joked about it here on the show, and we've talked about it recently. You're like, your your phone's always on do not disturb mode or whatever, right? But which isn't true, but it it has been true more and more as I've gotten older, because like just like everybody, right? Like this thing, you know, can is is such an addictive deal that it's just so easy to like have that supplant actual people who are with us in real relationships. And I try really hard to mitigate against that.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah. Yeah, just setting up some of those healthy boundaries, it you know, so that the the intrusions are at least controlled. You're not stopping them from happening, but you're you're at least allowing them to happen in a way that you can manage them as they you know as they go. I think that's that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Yeah, and I'll I'll say one more that it may might not be popular either, but when I first got here 15 years ago, you know, there were a lot of people that and and I I you know all of our leaders, you know, had my phone number and and I said, hey, listen, you know, here's my only ask is before you just randomly, oh hey, can I have Rob's number? Before you just give it out, like touch base with me. Because I, you know, I I I'm not a hoarder of my number at all, but everybody having my number, you know, and everybody, um it did it did not work well. And I would say within um, it's probably within two years, I every meeting I got out of, I'd have like, you know, 10 voicemails and 15 to 20 text messages. And it got to the point where I literally had to go to like Verizon and get a new number. And then I I was like really, really particular about who I gave it out to. And I would tell people, hey, here's the number for the church office. You don't even have to talk to anybody if you don't want to. You can bypass and leave something on my voicemail. And when I actually go into my office and the little lights flashing on my phone, guess what? I I'm there because I'm I'm there to do work and check in and whatever. And so I'll have time to like listen to that and call someone back. If you just text me or leave me a voicemail and it's one of 20 plus things that I have to like deal with, and I know that historically you're you're, you know, maybe you're just in a lonely season and you need someone to talk to. Maybe, you know, and so I'm like, this has to be responded to and that has to be responded to, and then I'm in my next meeting. Guess what? Like the lion's share of those things aren't gonna hear back from me. And so, as opposed to disappointing people, because they're like, well, I had a cell phone number and I I texted or called him and he never got back to me. It's like, well, you know what? No human being is gonna be able to respond to that many things. So if you actually need a chunk of my time, here's the way to get that. Because if you just you know bloop it through to my my device, I I try to like set this thing down as much as possible. And uh and when I'm in my office, you leaving a message there is gonna be a lot more effective at what you're looking for and need from me.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

So I want to talk to you right now because I don't want to wait. I don't want to put anything off. I I want immediate gratification, and that means I need rob time right now. Like, why can't I have it? You know, like I mean, but that that's I've I've had that interaction with people, and there is a sense of saying, hey, wait, wait, wait, wait. I didn't marry you, so you don't get unfettered access to me. And you know what? I didn't marry you, so I don't get unfettered access to you. Like you have boundaries that you put into place. You wouldn't want me just showing up at your doorstep on a random, you know, Tuesday evening. So let's, you know, return that favor and you know, respect me. And it's, I think it is okay for you to set some of those boundaries as a pastor up front. And and maybe you're in a situation where you haven't, and so trying to re-establish those, you feel like you're gonna have to go to Verizon and get a new phone number, you know. But uh man, go to your board, go to your elders, whatever you're leading, you know, and say, hey, listen, I need to be healthy. And for me to do that, I need to set some boundaries. Here's some guidelines I'm putting in place, and I want you to be okay with it so that when you get the pushback, you know, somebody comes to you and says, Well, Pastor Rob, blah, blah, blah, you say, Oh, no, no, no, no. We ask him to do that. And we said, we want you healthy for the long haul. And so putting these boundaries in place, you know, is a good thing because, man, ministry is messy. And if you don't have some kind of guardrail, something, you're just gonna get covered in that mess all the time. And it is not good, and it will bring you down faster than anything else. And that puts you in a position where you start doing things you wouldn't normally do. And that's when the sins start coming in, the things that discredit you from ministry come in because you haven't taken the time. And to, you know, circle this back to uh to where we started, taking a few minutes and just paying attention to not only what you eat, like I'm trying to do, but pay attention to where you're spending your energy and your time and even your relational energy, because there are plenty of places in in your church and in your ministry that would love to just absorb all of your relational energy and they will suck you dry if you let them. But pay attention because that's not healthy. And and maybe there are some relationships that you are putting time into that honestly are not helping you move forward in in your relationship with Jesus and even in you know your ministry. I I've got a whole thing I want to do sometime on your table of influence and setting that table. I I think that'll be a good podcast for sometime soon, but we'll we'll get into that later. But man, it's just messy. And and I I I'm so glad, Rob, that you know, you and I can talk candidly about the crap that happens and yet do it in a way that says, but I did sign up for some of this, right? Yeah. But in the same breath, that doesn't mean I have to take all of it. And I ultimately Jesus is the one who takes it, right? And and and reconciles it and restores it. I can't fix it.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

And and while that is a great place to like land this plane, I think that you know, our our our friends, um our listeners in ministry, like that's our default. So we struggle because we're like, I'm just gonna trust Jesus, and then we continue to shoulder the whole load, right? Like, I know lots of pastors who would say, in my context, like me preaching well, me getting becoming a better preacher, probably is the one thing I can do that's gonna have the biggest impact on my church, whether it's you know, growing, whether it helps people or not. And yet the reason they never ever get better or put more time into that is because of this kind of load, right? And so maybe another simple way to think about this is there are things all of us would like to do, but we can't because when we look at our bank account, our bank account says insufficient funds. We we can't afford that right now, right? And in that exact same way, Rob Patterson, Jason Allison, everyone listening, we are finite resources and we cannot be there for all things, for everyone. And uh maybe just one last tip. Like Eugene Peterson in his book, The Contemplative Pastor, yeah, great uses, yeah, read that book. If you haven't read that, must reading for everyone in ministry. But he gives this great thing where he says, everybody is a universal respecter of your calendar. So if someone's having an emergency that, you know, again, this isn't my emergency, and it's been three weeks since I did anything with my kids, and I promised my kids tonight we were gonna get to hang out. Tonight we were gonna play a video game, tonight we're going to the movies, whatever, whatever it is you love to do with your kid, you know, and this person's like, I need you, and you say, Well, I I I told my kid I'd hang out with them, and they're like, Really, really, you just doing nothing with your kids more, which the answer is yes. Yes, it is. It is more important. But you know, if you're like, hey, let me look. Oh, I'm so sorry. I already have an appointment, I have something scheduled. You don't have to tell people it's hanging out with your kid or going on a date night with your wife for the first time in a month or or a quarter or whatever, right? So use your calendar, plug in those things, and you know, and and again, like you said, Jason, build in those practices and that margin so that you truly can be healthy and have some more longevity.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Well, to our listeners, we are cheering for you. We'd love to hear your stories of how you build that margin in. We found that sharing those stories actually, you know, with one another and and it is so much better than just trying to hear Rob and Jason come up with the next best story. Uh, because a lot of you are way more creative and are in situations where you've come up with some great ideas, and we want to make sure we uh you know everyone's connected to that. Take a minute and check out the website as we're doing some updates, uh, churchtalkproject.com. We got lots of stuff on there, some resources, some uh ministry partners that you can click through and and learn about, uh, as well as some blog things that are happening, and then of course the YouTube channel. And we're trying to just find different ways to serve these amazing people we call pastors and leaders in our local churches and communities. And so we love you and we're excited to serve you, and uh can't wait to talk to you again next week. Have an amazing week.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Thanks for joining us today at the Church Talk Podcast. We hope the conversation encouraged and challenged you. We would love to hear from you. Email your questions or comments to Jason at ChurchtalkProje.com. The Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason is brought to you by the Church Talk Project. We work to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and church leaders around the world. Thanks for listening.