What if God Was In Your Boardroom?

In this episode, Kenyada Meadows shares insights on leadership, board effectiveness, and the importance of humility and self-awareness in organizational success. Discover practical strategies for boards and leaders to align with their mission and foster a culture of challenge and check.

Contact Kenyada Meadows: https://www.executiveparentcompany.com/about

Find The New Alpha here

Key Topics:
The distinction between governance and management
The importance of challenge and oversight in boards
How humility and vulnerability enhance leadership
Strategies for effective board evaluation and success
The impact of self-awareness and emotional intelligence in leadership

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene
02:51 Kenyatta Meadows: A Journey of Self-Discovery
05:48 The Hollow Man: Emotional Suppression in Men
11:05 Leadership and Balance: The New Alpha
16:52 Evaluating Success in Leadership and Boards
18:28 Effective Board Governance
20:48 Navigating Board Dynamics
23:11 Understanding Board Responsibilities
25:00 The Role of Governance vs. Management
28:28 Characteristics of a Successful Board
31:10 Finding Your Organization's Guiding Principles
34:34 Aligning Mission with Higher Calling
36:50 Sources of Hope in Leadership

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, hey everybody. Welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason. Uh we're so glad that you would take some time and join us. We are we we've got a great conversation lined up today. We've got a great guest. It's just been amazing. Uh the this this is scheduled to drop in July, so it's hot and wet, but man, when we're recording this, it is still this is the one week in Ohio that is actually perfect. Like 72 degrees, it is not humid, the sun is shining. Rob, you and I spent some time on the golf course. Like this is this is the one week of the year that's it's good to live in Ohio, don't you think?

SPEAKER_03 0:40

It is. And I have a friend that uh he he was always like, Oh, God, thank you so much that the weather's finally summery, finally it's 88 and humid, just like I like it. And I just feel like God should curse that guy because 68 to 72 in the slight breeze is way better for me.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

100% every day of the week, but alas we live in Ohio, so it will be muggy very soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Jason, so I here's what I think. I think you know, we should tell people, you should tell people. Actually, I could describe yours, you could describe mine, or we could just describe our own. But when we played golf last, you had an unbelievable hole. I had an unbelievable hole. And I I don't know, I really think our listeners might might want to hear this. Really? You you you think they care about our golf feed? Well, I think that we should agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

One of the 18 holes that we've played.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Talk about the rest.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I mean, you did you drained a 35-foot putt for Birdie that was just beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Yeah, and you had a you know, actually, your drive wasn't even that good, but you had an exceptional second shot on a par five, and you were like what, four or five feet for eagle? And man, you just burned the edge. Just burned the edge.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Like so you're saying I can't putt, is basically what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Hey, no. A tap in birdie is, you know, you you'll take that every day, right? Like, I mean, wish it would have been an eagle, but man, that was a beautiful hole. Yeah, mine was was when you sink a 35-foot birdie putt, that was just magical. And it looked like it was tracking the whole way.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

It is amazing to me the number of listeners that I talked to in passing who actually ask about have we played golf recently? And I'm like, you you really need to get a life if that's the highlight is hearing about our golf game. They want to live vicariously through us. I apparently. Apparently. Well, speaking of, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Yeah, no, there's a lot of pastors who like like golf, but like end up playing one, two, three times a year. So they need to live vicariously through somebody.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah. Well, and you know, most pastors only work one day a week, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that's not true at all. Well, we have someone who whose life I I don't know if I'd want to live vicariously through, but he's sitting in his apartment in in New York City, which just sounds cool. Like, uh, I mean, compared to where we live in the center of Ohio, nowhere. You're playing golf every day. Well, we played golf one day, and we're just stretching it a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But yes, we have with us Kenyatta Meadows. And man, we are so glad that you have joined us. And it is an honor. Your the website that you uh you know that would connect people to you is uh executiveparentcompany.com. And uh, of course we'll put a we'll put a link in the show notes. But you have been in financial services as an executive and and a governance expert, a board member with 25 plus years, uh leading, I'm just reading some of this audit, risk, and compliance across global Wall Street institutions. I mean, a Harvard Business School alumnus, author, master certified executive. You are just way out of our league, is basically what I'm I'm I'm sensing. But in all of that, what I love is you and I have had conversations in the past, and you just have this heart for organizations and especially nonprofits to run at a higher level, to run better, so to speak. And then I I'm so glad you would take a few minutes and uh and and join our little podcast, man.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Welcome. Well, when you read it like that, I I mean it sounds like I'm way out of my own league. So I'm I'm I'm I'm sitting there looking at what you what you read. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean, I've been very fortunate. You know, I'm a very hard worker, but you know, hard work isn't gonna get you all there. You gotta be blessed with some baseline and uh fortunate to be able to have opportunities to engage and to meet people like you. You know, you say it's this little podcast, but at the end of the day, you're literally doing God's work. You know, I'm I'm I've I feel privileged to be on the podcast with you.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Well, thanks for joining us. Maybe let's just get started. Like to share a little bit about like your story. How how did you get to doing what you're doing now?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Aaron Powell Yeah, I don't know how far back to go. I mean, I can go all the way back to, you know, being two months premature, born at 6 a.m. on a Monday, uh, ready to work. You know, I was just couldn't, couldn't wait. Let's get started. You know, I'd go back about five or six years, uh, sort of around the time of COVID. You know, I had just had a baby, and I wasn't feeling particularly fulfilled in my work. And I felt like there was more that I could be doing, but I didn't know what. And I was sort of just tracking my own journey, thinking about how, you know, in my book uh you referenced or or might reference, um, and it's included there on the on the website, the new alpha, be three times the leader through balance, not dominance. You know, I really described my journey where it was focused on me at first, right? How do I enhance my relationships at work? How do I enhance them at home? How do I cultivate a better relationship with myself? Those are the three domains that I that I talk about and set up as the framework in the book. But through my own experience, through my own exploration, through self-challenge, a little bit of self-awareness, mistakes, things that were going well, and conversations with friends, other people who were close to me, I realized that some of the things that I was discovering in my own journey uh were useful to other people, that they were obviously also experiencing some of the same um challenges in their careers, how to find balance within their homes, how to make sure they're taking care of themselves. And generally speaking, to be frank, most people probably aren't taking nearly as good uh care of themselves as they can. And we tend to think about that in terms of physical, physical attributes, but emotionally, in terms of you know, mental health, we we generally aren't plugging into ourselves and taking, taking proper care. But this is especially true of men, and especially true of of men of color, older men in particular, so our fathers, our uncles, you know, supervisors, some of your older pastors, you know, they may have a frame of mind that may have been useful at a particular point in time, and it's not particularly wrong per se, but it doesn't allow for the humanity to kind of come into vulnerability to be recognized and to be used as a point of connection. And so, you know, like I say, going back five or six years, I really clearly recognize that something wasn't going as as well as it could, and I wanted to make that change.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Wow. That's that's great. Like I I I know in in your book, the the the Alpha Man, the you you talk about the the idea of the hollow man, right? And emotional suppression and how and and I mean I I grew up my I rem I man, I remember standing at the tool bench in our basement and my dad telling me, he said, Hey, listen, as as as guys, you know, we don't have emotions. Like we don't get really high, we don't get really low, we just keep it steady. And that obviously, I mean, I was six years old, and that has stuck with me. And you know, my dad, great dad, you know, very loving, all this stuff, but that getting out getting that out of my head and trying to actually live engaged with the people around me. I mean, that I have to work really hard at that. And and I it, you know, and I'm pretty boring middle of the road guy. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not some high capacity whatever, but I'm not, you know. And yet I look around going, man, most of the pastors that I work with struggle with that idea of we have to keep everything bottled up. And so how how did that play out in your life? Like, I mean, you're writing about it. Maybe, do you mind taking a minute and just saying, hey, this is this is why or how I learned this lesson?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

So a couple of things. I'll go back to you to the example you gave. I mean, that may be a point in time that is memorable for you, kind of a punctuated memory, but it is way more than the one time your dad told you that, because that was reinforced at school with your friends, way before you were six, and probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of times, probably millions of times since then. If you consider media, advertising, movies, conversations that you had, things you've observed and witnessed. I mean, it is it is a nonstop barrage of men are tough, they're the protectors, they are the providers. And that we assume that role, right? There's nothing wrong with that role. I assume that role and I would have it no other way. But on the same token, where the rub is, is where we deny emotion. Emotion is really neutral. It is essentially data-driven and it's feedback, right? Anger, I always say, anger is a good thing. It's an emotion for a reason and it's not about imperfection. It just has to be appropriately directed and it needs to be appropriately measured, and it needs to be with some objective as a result, you know, aiming for some objective, not just necessarily release, even though within that, having it as a release instead of internalizing it is much healthier, right? But I use that as an sort of an extreme, what we would probably think of as an extreme emotion. It has its purpose. Pain has a purpose, right? It's to warn us that what we're doing could be damaging or something, something that needs to be avoided. So for me, going back to your reference to the hollow man that I that I write about in in The New Alpha, and in fact, I've I've got a copy here. So I don't know how clearly you can see this because it's kind of glossy, but the cover here is actually of a hollow tree. And the image kind of came to mind because it's a metaphor that I've been using in describing, where, for example, you know, I'm sure you've seen this plenty, where one night, maybe a little rain, a little wind, you know, nothing traumatic is happening. And then in the morning you wake up and a tree that's been there for your whole life, you know, maybe down the road, is on its side. And you go and you look at it and you realize inside is hollow and the roots, the roots are rotten. And so you've been passing that thing probably potentially for decades. It could be decades of decay happening unbeknownst to us. And I equate that to a lot of what happens with men because of what's assigned to us in terms of the attributes and the expectations, but also what we assume from others, what we assume from the context that we are feeling hollow, we're feeling unfulfilled, the number one users of drugs and alcohol, men, the uh you know, 93% of the world's prison population, men, uh pretty much all of the world's ills, if you really think about it, originate with men. I mean, I hate to say it and put it that way, but that that is the fact. If you look at the wars, how many of the wars that are being fought now or that are being entered into global uh with global impacts are being driven by women? And usually at some point you can you can go back and sort of derive, you know, that what is the root of all that? It's ego, it's greed, it's something negative. And it's usually ultimately, I think, a sense of, you know, lacking fulfillment, lacking contentment, lacking respect for other people. There's sort of a lack of dignity in a lot of leadership that we see. So I think that that is all indicative of the kind of hollowness that a lot of people are feeling. And by the way, I'm clearly not saying that I'm perfect. You're not saying that you're perfect. We know way better than that. But what we're saying is we have at least a self-awareness and we have a line in the sand where we can say, hey, we see what the problem is or we see how it can be played out, and we see what the root of it is, and we need to take intentional action to make some changes about that. Because frankly, when we think about what it means to be a leader, when we refer to ourselves as men, it's not because we're indecisive, can't be intentional, can't do difficult things. We we absolutely can. And so this is one of the most fundamental and important things that we can do for ourselves, starting with ourselves and then for the people around us.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Yeah, so good. Um, a couple comments, Jason. When you were talking about that comment, you r still remember when you were a little boy that your dad said, you know, I mean, I'm sure, because it happened in my mind, you know, when you said that, like I had my own memories of things my dad said to me populate. I'm sure for our listeners, exact same kind of sensation or emotion. And for me, that just made me think, man, as opposed to us just sort of mindlessly passing on the things we learned. I mean, like you said, your dad was a good dad. He wasn't intending, you know, to hollow you out in any way by, you know, robbing you of your true emotional self, you know, as part of your person. But man, sometimes we're just like, that's what my dad told me, and that's what I'm gonna tell my kids. And, you know, sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. So, you know, for us to really think through and be intentional about what we pass on and what we just sort of leave and let stop with us, you know, is really important. And Kenyatta, when you uh, you know, there are there are things in life, whether, you know, it's a sentence or words or a book title. Like sometimes I'm just in the bookstore and I see a book title and I'll buy the book because of the title, because it's so compelling. And that subtitle in in your book, you know, that idea of finding success through balance, not dominance. Man, for me, that just like there's all kinds of things firing in in my mind as I think about that. So I'm I'm you know, I'm wondering if you just tell us a little bit about, you know, your work with leaders in boards and and maybe a little more specifically, you know, because we all do this, right? We, whatever we're a part of, we're constantly evaluating it. And maybe we were too critical sometimes. It's like, I wish this was better, I wish I, you know, how would you, you know, help people kind of see if their, if their group, their board, whatever was successful? You know, like what are some markers that you would go, yeah, that you you guys really are doing a good job and kind of have a good thing going, or maybe you need to work on these things.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Sure. Well, I think one measure of success in a board environment is going to be, well, a couple of things. How collaborative is the board? Now, that doesn't mean that you don't have disagreements or you shouldn't. Healthy boards, healthy relationships of all kinds not only have disagreement, but they need it because that's the only way to make sure that you're kind of evaluating all angles and things appropriately. Um, and so, and so there has to be that sort of disagreement, but it has to, you know, it ought to be dignified, it should be respectful. So collaboration is one, but then also how true are you to your stated mission and your values? And how what kind of progress are you making? I mean, the first thing is before you can measure whether or not you're being successful, you have to have a set of measures in mind in terms of what's going to create success. And you also need to be sure that those measures of success are actually reflective of what your mission is or what your values are, not something that was handed to you, not something that you just inherited or that read good, you know, read well on a piece of paper, looked good on a piece of paper. It has to be tailored and thoughtful. And by the way, you need to also come back and reevaluate them, maybe not the core, but depending on, you know, a growth metric, or depending on how many new congregants. I mean, at some point, let's say that's no longer gonna be your push. Your push is gonna be how do we deal with the aging population and how do we support them, or how do we, you know, what kind of youth programs do we have because we see that's a need, or what kind of programs do we have for young men because that's increasingly a need. So your measures and metrics are gonna have to constantly be tailored to account for the populations that you're that you're serving and the changes in your ministry. And so for me, I think it's you know, it's it's making sure that you're not being static in your thinking, that you're being in, you know, that you're you're tailoring and being individualistic to some extent to your mission, making sure that there's robust conversation and also that not one person or a small group of people are dominating the conversation and pushing everybody in the direction that they want to go. At some point, not only are you on the board because you are supposed to have a voice, but you have to make sure that you're actually using the voice. And, you know, one of the conversations that Jason and I had uh previously, you know, I spoke about making sure that, particularly in your field, making sure that you think about what it would be like if God was in the boardroom. And so that's gonna mean subordinating your ego, even if you're the quote unquote leader, you're the chair, you're the most senior person, your vision and your mission is subordinated to something much larger. And the way you treat the people around you, your vision, your approach, all of those things really need to be reflective of what God actually wants and also sort of are presented in a respectful and uh and a humble way. So I think, you know, tailoring it to this space, those are some of the things I would be looking for to determine success in your space.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

So going back to what we first talked about, the the the new alpha and the idea of actually finding that balance and you know becoming basically being three times the leader through balance, not dominance, and then taking that and realizing that in you know 90% of the boards that Rob and I work with or or you know encounter and engage with, generally it's it's male, you know, and that's whatever there's theology and stuff, that's a whole nother, you know, conversation. But even still, it's a bunch of guys who maybe they were good in in whatever business they happen to be in, and so the pastor invites them to be on the board or they get elected to some you know position, but they bring with them that hollow man, they bring with them the those those issues that they probably haven't dealt with. And so you get this church board leading this congregation, but they're leading out of some very you know broken things. What like what can a pastor or the leader of a board like, what are some things that you've seen help the board address some of those issues in a way that doesn't turn it into a group therapy? I mean, that's not the goal. They're there for a reason. What have you seen work in those type situations?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Well, you've got to have clear definitions about what it means to be a board member here. So it's not just because you've got a great name or great pedigree that we need you on the board. I mean, that's that's to serve, that's to serve man, right? That's to to gain prestige and and all the rest of it. At the end of the day, we want to make sure that you have the skill sets, the attributes that are going to allow this board to fulfill its mission, which is much bigger than anything really uh that earthly uh measures should should be able to kind of capture. So I think, you know, making sure that the people are well vetted, making sure that all the board members, you know, have a have a say and have some uh engagement with the person or at least are are able to get comfortable with with their bio and to challenge and ask questions. Obviously, you know, the hiring is uh typically is done by committee or at least the the detailed uh engagement. But you if you're a board member, you should feel very comfortable asking for details. And if there's anything that's making you uncomfortable, feeling free to to kind of voice that. But obviously there's only so much you can do as far as that goes. Sometimes there's big surprises like hires, maybe bad hires, or maybe questionable hires, or things you just couldn't figure out, figure out before. And undoubtedly that's gonna happen on boards, but ensuring that you've got a mechanism for coaching, a mechanism for communication, a mechanism for feedback and evaluation. I mean, these are pretty standard in boards that are operating well. They're standard for corporate boards and big, big boards. And so you just want to make sure that you've got those systems and processes in place to make sure that, again, people are getting a feedback about the things that they're doing well, things that they need to continue doing, things they need to stop doing as well. And so I think there are plenty of ways to to address it. First, up front before they even join the board. Secondly, as a part of a part of uh being on the board. And if need be, then there's processes for exiting or or or sort of not renewing uh people's uh membership on the board. And so I I think it really reflects pretty closely or attracts very closely to what you would see uh in the business world, for example, in the corporate world.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

That's good. You know, I I I kind of want to uh, you know, take advantage of your expertise for a situation I find myself in. So I've been on a board for the last five and a half years, and actually, you can do two, three-year terms. So I only have a half year left on this board. It's for a great nonprofit in my area. It actually exists to help uh cancer patients and their families when they're battling cancer. And we have an amazing director. I came on the board at a time when the board had been made up of some people that really just kind of were power-hungry type people and they wanted to make the director report to them because they were the board. So they put all kinds of, you know, things in place. And so I've sort of seen one of my, you know, roles as supporting the director and really trying to sort of rewrite some of those things so that the organization kind of functions efficiently. But because of the nature of our work, we're just we're doing so many things, so many events, so many fundraisers that you know, we we don't have enough staff, you know. So we're always trying to figure those things out. And so what the what Our director loves to say is we are a working board. And what she means by that is I would love every board member to show up for every single thing we do as much as humanly possible, even though everybody has a day job. And then I've read other things out there where it's like, you know, a board is better if it can kind of help govern and lead and think and spend its time in that direction without being sort of swamped in the day-to-day. So, you know, I just, you know, kind of with some of that, like a little bit of a snapshot. What would you, I mean, if you were coming in as a consultant to help help this organization be effective? Like, what are some things you would maybe say to me or to us, you know, and wanting this organization to be as effective as possible?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

So one thing that jumps out immediately is that the board is not management. The board is focused on governance and oversight. And so there could be events, for example, where you need some extra people serving ice water or bringing things from the truck or whatever the case is. Obviously, people should just kind of pitch in and get the job done. Can't stand on the side and say, well, you know, it's my job to just govern and have oversight. So I think you guys are doing a great job where you need to do more of that. Move faster. I think, you know, we have to be very careful of that because it creates a conflict of interest in general terms. And so there's a phrase uh nose in, hands out, um, which I don't know if I love it, but it's very common phrase in in this space, particularly for much larger boards. And what that means is, you know, just because you have financial expertise, you don't get in there and start telling the CFO what to do, start making decisions for them, not even the CEO. You challenge, you ask questions, you move in a constructive way, but they still also have to have the autonomy because in your particular instance, it may come across as useful or helpful to have, you know, you all help and particularly if everyone's getting along well and it's making sense. But imagine the inverse, if you have a director who feels pretty confident that their way, which is going to take some time to build the staff and build the skills and uh and build a sort of a repertoire of things that they've done well, they don't want you or need you necessarily to be dabbling and showing up on Saturday or showing up on Tuesday, just talking to staff, doing whatever you want without any kind of heads up. Um, so so generally speaking, you would expect to see a very clear boundary between what it means to kind of roll up your sleeves as a board member and what that would mean to and for management or for the other stakeholders. So I would I would definitely start with that.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Yeah, it's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

I I want to pick up on something you said there because that this is an issue, and I've never been able to put my finger on it until you just said that. You said the board is not management, it is governance. And every elder board, church board, whatever that I have worked on or consulted with, they do not understand that. Like that is a foreign concept. Can you dive into that a little bit? Because man, I think that is something that we really need to understand better because I think it could be a game changer for boards, at least the ones that that we work with.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Well, think about a larger company with we'll we'll just start with a larger company because I think it's easier to envision and then we can apply it. So the board isn't responsible for coming up with strategy, for example. It's actually your leadership, right? Your CEO, your executive director, whoever is operating and running the organization on a day-to-day basis, who has that responsibility. That's the person who should really be coming up with strategy for the organization. Now, as board members, you obviously can chip in, you can challenge, you can use your expertise and your experience to say, hey, that doesn't quite track to me. Maybe go back and do a little more research or what is it that you've done that underpins those assumptions, right? It's your responsibility to challenge, but that's a part of oversight, that's a part of governing. But it's not for you to sit there and come up with a plan of attack and because now you're you're operating as management. And so even a line like that, for a lot of people, it's quite confusing. If you say the board is not responsible for strategy, they're like, well, what's it responsible for? It's responsible for challenge and it's responsible for oversight. If I came up with the strategy myself or as a board member or as a group, if we came up with the strategy, then we're essentially the top of the house and we're just having management go out there and execute. Then if we need to challenge it, or if it's not going well, well, who then has oversight? Who has oversight over us and the decisioning? We're ultimately kind of that last stop, that final check. So we can't be the ones also with our fingers in the pie and formulating, you know, all the ideas. It's for us to challenge, it's for us to check. And so, you know, having having that clarity that sort of the board is, let's call it, the uh, you know, the final, the the that final check, that final uh uh point of responsibility uh between us and the rest of the world should hopefully provide a little bit of clarity for for people. I don't know if that answers your question as fully as you want it, but but does that is that the direction you were going?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Yeah. Well, I mean, I wanted a three-point outline where it's like a silver bullet and it fixes every problem that every board has ever.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

So just a magic principle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

But no, I I love that that's you know, the the challenge and check, like those two things that that's I can get my head around that. Like when I go in, I've I've got a there's a board in at a church in a couple states over that I'm I'm working with, and they're wrestling through what does it look like, you know, and they're asking it in a healthy way. Like they want to, they want to be a good board, but it's a challenge and a check that that gives me a framework to say, hey, it's not, you don't have to come up with the vision and the strategy and the execution. Like your job is to empower and encourage the team, the staff, to do that. And and the staff could be volunteers. Like, I mean, it may not be a big church or the paid staff, all this, but absolutely your job then is to I've I've always said the job of the board is to protect the the vision, but I like your way of saying it better because that's a little too generic. This gets into the you know challenge and check. That's what a really good board does. Uh have you have you had experience on let's start on the positive, like on a board that you just thought, man, this board is operating in a healthy way, it's effective, it's doing what it needs to do. Uh like I mean, do you have an experience like that that maybe you could just describe why it was it was a good board?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

So so my first board I sat on for almost 10 years as an organ procurement and transplantation organization. And I actually I didn't realize how fortunate I was to be asked to join that board. I was actually in my mid-20s, which is unbelievable to me now. But anyway, it was it was a very formative experience for me, and and I really, really enjoyed it and learned a ton. I think those were experiences where, or those were times where we could could challenge effectively, and people did it. And it was, well, it was a board with, you know, obviously the C level uh individuals running the organization, but also a bunch of neurosurgeons and neurologists and and and um organ trans organ trans yeah, and then me. And a coup a couple there were a couple of business people, a couple of business people, but mostly medical professionals. And so people would challenge. They would ask questions, well, what does this mean? Well, like what's happening with the kidneys? How are we approaching, you know, fees and all the rest of it? And there were, there was, there was appropriate, robust challenge. It wasn't just a presentation that everybody kind of slept through, signed off on, and then, and then went home. So I thought that that that worked extremely well. People were very prepared. You know, I'd have this CEO because I was Secretary and Treasurer for a while and sat on the audit committee. And so the CFO, we would spend time together maybe once a quarter, have a lunch or have a call and kind of go through things, and I'd provide some insights and and some suggestions. And so, and they were very receptive to the feedback, right? They sought out board members, not overwhelmingly. It wasn't that we were a crutch, but it's that we, you know, we were properly, sort of our skills were properly applied. And so to me, that was probably just a fantastic example of the balance that you would expect of between management and the board. And then even within the board, how the various committees engage with the with the broader board, um, I thought was was really well done.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Kenyatta, you earlier were talking about when we were talking about what a successful board looks like, and you again, you just, you know, gave another description. You know, you you talked about, well, you have to have clearly defined roles for board members. And you as an organization, you have to not just have things that look good on on paper, but you actually, you know, have to have kind of this guiding principle, you know, know where you're heading and those kinds of things. You know, if you were talking to a pastor or just a leader who, you know, was in charge of an organization, and but they maybe they were just doing things that had been handed down to them. They really didn't have kind of that guiding North Star, you know, what what would you suggest or how would you help them figure that out? Well, there are a few things you can do.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

So, for example, you know, a few years ago we might have said Google, but but I would say if you throw something into Claude or ChatGPT, it's probably gonna give you some pretty good advice in terms of what should I do or how can I prepare myself? What should I read? What videos on YouTube should I watch? I don't know if it's gonna give you YouTube videos specifically, but you get the idea. What are some of the things that I can do uh to become a better board member? Information is so democratized, it's just a matter of applying these exact same principles. How can I be better? What can I do? Doing a search, asking people engaging, and not just presuming that, okay, here you are in a bubble, one that you can't ask anybody or shouldn't, because it's going to show that you're weak. That kind of goes back to connection and vulnerability and the things we've spoken about, some humility there. Um, uh and you know, just sort of making sure that we are also challenging, going back to what's consistent with the role, challenging not only the things that were handed to us, but challenging the things that we've come up with, the systems and processes on a periodic basis. If you remember, you know, a few minutes ago when we were when we were talking about measures and metrics and thinking about what's important to a church or a group at any particular point in time. That's gonna continue to evolve. And so your metrics and measures have to continue to evolve. You have to continue to reassess, re-evaluate. And so that's something that people absolutely need to do. So it's not just a matter of, well, what was I handed? And it's, you know, kind of the same as it's always been. And Rob and Jason used to do it like this, and you got to go ask them. I don't know. No, you're in the role, now you have responsibility and you need to be dynamic and executing. That doesn't mean that you should just change for the sake of change, change to leave your mark on things, not just to say that you did something different, but you have you have to be very intentional and purposeful in making sure that, hey, now I'm at the helm. Uh, now I'm driving this vehicle. If I'm feeling something rattling, yeah, those folks didn't take it in for servicing appropriately and they didn't take care of the things that needed to be taken care of. And there's not enough air in the tire, but that doesn't mean you're gonna continue driving down the road with not enough air in the tire.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Yeah. Yeah, it's good. You know, Jason, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta follow up here because, you know, I I love that answer because I think sometimes, you know, we just make it like I gotta go up on the mountain and hear from on high. And there's only this one specific thing that if I don't catch lightning in a bottle, you know, I'm not doing the right thing, which is that, you know, that's just too elusive. It's too overwhelming. And yet, there, you know, I think there is this sense in which, um, and I think this is true across so many different, especially nonprofits, who just, you know, aren't don't exist because they want to, you know, become independently wealthy. They they exist because they want to impact the world. And so there is this sense, like you, you said to Jason, and he kind of confessed, has been haunting him ever since, you know, like what if God was in that boardroom? What if God was in that board meeting? Like, there is this sense of kind of a higher calling that exists. So maybe like talk just a little bit about that tension of, hey, like take advantage of all the stuff that's available and do your due diligence and be engaged and be dynamic and sort of be listening for maybe this unique calling or higher, higher principle.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah, I think those things are completely aligned, 100% aligned, really. If you're if you're motivated by your mission, then you should be willing to do what it takes to uh serve well, uh, do what it takes to prepare yourself as well as you can, and then to do that with the humility as if God is in the room. Yeah. Which which is only gonna help keep you on the straight and narrow, focused on the mission, keep you humble and and moving in the right direction. It might even accelerate it. Um, because if that's the North Star, which it really is and ought to be, right, cross the board, whether or not you're in the board, uh boardroom or not, if you're a congregant, uh, if you're uh whatever religion you are, your North Star should be pretty clear in terms of how you're living your life. And so when we cross-apply that to the boardroom, it should become even more crisp, not more uh fuzzy. If you're concerned with doing good work, for whom are you doing it? Is it for your own personal uh accolades and your own personal uh uh reward? Or is it actually because you care about the stakeholders? I don't doubt that the vast majority of people listening to this and the vast majority of people in the not-for-profit world are doing it for the right reasons. And even those who may not obviously be doing it for the right reasons or maybe doing it differently, they may just need help getting back on the right track. But that doesn't mean that that there's any malice or or anything that's that's fundamentally wrong with with their approach or with their heart, anyway. And so, you know, I I would say that those things are are super closely aligned, making sure that you're you're trying to meet your mission. Think about what it's like to have this higher calling, to be doing it in front of, you know, this this higher power who's blessing your efforts and has given you the ability and the capability to use your your talents, your energy, your resources in service of other people. I mean, to me, that's just uh a fantastic place to begin.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yeah, it's so good. So we're getting close to the end here of of our time, but maybe what what is giving you hope today? Like I'm just curious. Uh, you know, part of the role of the church is supposed to be you know, sharing hope with with the people. But as you deal with sports and you do live your life in, you know, bustling New York City and all this stuff, whatever, what gives you hope as you just look around the world today?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

That's such a great question. I mean, that's a that's a really good great question. So so I was thinking about it in a way that's different than the way you end it. So when you say you're around the world today, but but I think I think it can just be extrapolated. If you think about it in concentric circles, start with yourself, and then it just kind of extrapolates. And so, you know, maybe the answer is a little more close to the core, but ultimately it could be extrapolated. So what gives me hope is the belief, the real belief that the the work that I'm doing, the work that people like you are doing, is really for, it's really purposeful. I feel very fortunate and blessed to have had the support of my family-loving parents and and people who who really took care of me, supported me, encouraged me, gave me opportunity. Many people, many people I don't even know, right? Many of our supporters and sponsors, we don't know who those people may be because they they don't show up as a mentor necessarily, right? But they give us opportunities. And that's sort of the big difference between mentors and sponsors. A mentor probably gives you guidance and kind of tells you how to navigate, and a sponsor gives you opportunity, right? And so I've been fortunate to have all sorts of people doing all sorts of things for me. And and I believe that what we're able to do with our power, what we're called to do with our skills and abilities is just so much bigger than us. When I think about my daughter and I think about young people, when I think about what people can be if they are only the better versions of themselves, which probably requires them to be a bit more intentional and isn't nearly as hard as they might think it is, or it won't be as hard for as long as they might think it will be, or that the results will be much bigger and greater than they think they might be. So it's worth the effort. You know, those are the things that that that give me hope. You know, the way that I feel today compared to the way that I felt five or six years ago, and the vision I have for my life and the way I'm spending my time and trying my best to help people, you know, that gives me, specifically me, hope. But I had a conversation with someone earlier today, too, about about goodness. And what I said, I had this thought, and this is a very straightforward thought, but it's that what is good endures. And so people can attack you, they can attack your group, they can make it difficult, there can be, you know, pestilence and bloodshed and pandemics. Eventually, eventually those things are gonna come to an end. Now, that doesn't mean it's gonna be, you know, easy or it doesn't matter the the the tribulations and the challenges you went through. But if you are focused on doing the right thing, if you're focused on what is morally courageous, I think that those things will always outlast the bad, the bad people, the bad actors, the bad situation. So while that that may not be easy to digest in the middle of a storm, it may feel that it's been going on for way too long or it's far too deep or it's really unfair. I f I find confidence in the fact that you just have to hold on and you might not get over something, you might not get over a loss, but you can get through it.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yeah. Yeah. Kenyatta, I just want to say, you know, Jason and I talk about this quite often. After now, four years of doing this podcast, you know, in a world that, you know, wants to point out division and how bad everything is, we, as we've gotten to meet people and kind of peek behind the curtain a little bit with some people, we have been impressed, you know, just in the church world and the nonprofit world, just in the world in general, with just the level of humility and the number of people who aren't out just looking to make a living, but they also want to make a difference. And, you know, you certainly fall into that category. You know, we began by like going, wow, look at all the things that you have done and started your pet pedigree and and all that kind of stuff. But man, I just appreciate your humility and the way that you want to make the world a better place. So I just want to say thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. Uh, that's encouraging. And I think, you know, if we're able to kind of point those things out to each other um and more often, those are the things that kind of really build us up, right? So it's it's interesting because, you know, we're talking about humility, but there's still a kind of a pride and energy um that goes along with that. And and and it's kind of this is the groundswell that I think um that connection that we're talking about and looking for and that I write about um um really helps to create. So so I appreciate that, and that that you know, that means a lot.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Yeah. Well, uh, we appreciate you taking the time to to be on on this podcast. I know our listeners have appreciated. I mean, I've been writing stuff down that I'm gonna be using, you know, the next next time I'm I'm training a board uh and working with them. So I appreciate that. We'll put a link to uh the new alpha book that you wrote. Uh and and of course your your website so they can find. I know you've written a couple of other things, and if they want to get in touch with you about coaching and all that stuff, uh that way they can reach out. But that Kenyatta, thank you for your time. And uh to our listeners, hey, we appreciate you. We love you, and we can't wait to uh hear from you. So uh maybe send us a story of a maybe maybe a a complete board failure or maybe an amazing success. Because I know you've probably had both in in your time. But we will talk with you again next week. Have a great weekend, and uh, we are cheering for you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Thanks for joining us today at the Church Talk Podcast. We hope the conversation encouraged and challenged you. We would love to hear from you. Email your questions or comments to Jason at ChurchtalkProje.com. The Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason is brought to you by the Church Talk Project. We work to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and church leaders around the world. Thanks for listening.