Every Believer a Witness

In this episode, Jacob Payne shares his inspiring journey from a life of rebellion to becoming an evangelist dedicated to equipping believers to share their faith effectively. Discover practical tools, biblical insights, and the importance of authentic evangelism rooted in love and the Holy Spirit.

Connect with Jacob at https://www.everybelieverawitness.org/ 

00:00 Introduction and Context
02:37 Jacob Payne's Journey to Faith
05:29 The Mission of Every Believer a Witness
08:37 Challenges in Evangelism
11:07 Cultural Barriers to Sharing Faith
14:14 Overcoming Fear and Apathy in Evangelism
16:48 The Importance of Relationship in Witnessing
19:46 The Role of Love in Evangelism
23:05 The Power of Love in Sharing the Gospel
25:52 The Importance of Personal Testimony
27:19 The Role of the Holy Spirit in Evangelism
33:53 Navigating Personal Stories and Evangelism
39:32 The Impact of Church Growth on Evangelism

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason. We are so glad that you are taking some time this week to join us, whatever week it might be for you. Some people listen Monday morning at 6 a.m. when it drops. Other people wait and catch up. I I can't imagine Rob listening to us for like two, three episodes in a row. That that just that scares me, really. Yeah. But but yeah, we're we're glad that you're here. We've got some conversations today with a person that a new friend of ours, but we're excited to share some of this and to see where God takes the conversation. But Rob, man, right now, as of this recording, it's like hotter than Blue Blazes in our area, and I know in a lot of other areas as well. This may drop in a couple weeks when it's all of a sudden cooled off and snowing somewhere. I don't know, but I don't know. Are you surviving?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

So, I mean, you and I were gone last week at a conference.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Together, which is scary on so many levels, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

It's a good thing that my wife Bethany and my youngest son Liam were with us. They probably somehow kept us on the rails a little bit. They did. But but no, I mean, so I was gone last week and then the week before, um, a lot of that week it was like raining and the free time. So I had so like my five acres of mowing did not get mowed for two weeks. So yesterday, when it was like 90 degrees and another probably like 90 degrees relative humidity, I mowed in the middle, like the heat of the day, and I just felt gross and awful. And you know, you and I are golfing tomorrow with a couple pastors, and it might be the worst day, the hottest day of the whole summer, and we chose to go hang out like outside for four hours. So I don't know what the says about our sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Well, we're not that bright, but if you recall when we uh golfed with this same pastor two years ago, or maybe it was last year, I'd lose track. It was like 98 degrees. It was the hottest day of the year because then we went to a baseball game after that, and it was ridiculously hot. So I guess you know what? I'm blaming this pastor. I think maybe there's just a little piece of hell in there that isn't worked out yet, and we need to we're gonna have to beat it out of him tomorrow. I think that's what it's gonna take. Well, speaking of hell, uh, we've got a guest whose whose main job, whose main job is to keep people from going there. Let's be honest. Okay, uh just make that really clear right up front. We have with us Jacob Payne, and uh Jacob is on staff with Every Believer a Witness. It's an organization that partners with churches to help equip them to make sure that every believer in a church is is able to uh share their testimony and to lead someone to Christ. And I we actually, Jacob connected over LinkedIn of all things. Like, I mean, something good has come from LinkedIn and social media. Well, I say that, I guess by the end of this conversation, you might be questioning whether how good it was, but you know, we at least did that. And and and so I think it's great. Jacob, man, welcome to the Church Talk Podcast. We are glad you are here.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Yes, thank you for having me. I I've I've done several podcasts and and radio interviews. And so I thought I'd give this this one a try. And uh so so hopefully it's like you said, LinkedIn will work out.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Yeah, yeah. No, I I'm I'm looking forward to this. It it'll be a really good conversation because we're we're I mean, we already said before we hit record, we're talking about Jesus, so you know it's gonna be a good conversation one way or the other. But maybe let's just get started. Tell us a little bit about your story, like uh, you know, help us get to know Jacob Payne.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yeah, so um it it was it's it's really odd um and and how amazing at the same time how the Lord works in mysterious ways. I I tell a lot of people when they say, Jacob, it it's wonderful with every believer a witness, and and how did you become, you know, uh an evangelist? How did God call you to become an evangelist? And I say, well, most most Christians, what do we always hear most Christians say? They say, Well, I've just been a I've been a Christian my whole life. I grew up in church, that kind of thing. And and well, that's kind of how my story was. I grew up in a very godly home. I went to Christian school my entire life. I can remember, I heard a pastor share a sermon one time about hell, like you had mentioned a minute ago, and I just knew I didn't want to go there. But here's the thing: I didn't care to have a relationship with Jesus. I just I just wanted some fire insurance. I just wanted a get out of hell free car. And so that's what I told him. And I can remember the pastor to this day telling me, hey, just repeat after me this little prayer, and bada bing, bada boom, you know, he made it sound like a magic trick. You're saved. You're born again. You said you repeated after me.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

And and I believed him. And I went through life. You know where this is going. Went through life, got rock, you know, caught up with the wrong crowd, and and completely went off the rails. I ended up part of a motorcycle organization where I became sergeant at arms, became a drunk. I was an absolute wicked heathen, and I can remember just feelings of emptiness, and that turned to depression. And it wasn't until the age of 34 years old that I realized Jesus died for me. Because that depression had also led to even occasional suicidal thoughts. And so here I was at the age of 34, laying in the bed, and I realized Jesus died. I don't have to die. And it was in that moment that it just, I had this overwhelming peace and joy just sweep over my body. And I thought, God, if this is you revealing yourself to me, continue, please. And I did. I said, you know what, God, I'm gonna do what your book says. It says I just need to put my faith and trust in you, Jesus, that you died for me on the cross and rose from the grave in three days. I said, but but God, I need your help. I see, I've got to repent, turn from my sin. I can't just be a hypocrite and say I love Jesus, but live however I want to live. I've got to repent, turn from sin. I need help, though, because I've got addiction in my life. I kid you not, guys. The very next day I completely quit drinking, smoking, doping, cussing, everything that I was doing. Took me three months to get out of the motorcycle organization, but I got out. Wanted nothing to do with the lifestyle that I had been accustomed to. And um, I acquired the fruits of the spirit because then I just started loving everyone. And that was not not normal for me. That was that was not natural, that was supernatural. And uh sorry, I I knew that day that I surrendered my life to Jesus was my born-again moment of true surrender, where I became 2 Corinthians 5.17, a new creature, just a new, a new, a new person, a transformation had come. And then shortly after I quit my job where I was making tons of money and just worked part-time to take care of my family. Then eventually I figured out why God was preparing me. He called me into ministry, so now I'm poor, and but still take care of my family. And but he called me specifically as an evangelist because here's what he used. I heard a statistic that said 99% of professing Christians are not actively sharing their faith, sharing the gospel daily with those around them. And when I heard that, it was like the Holy Spirit hit me in the back of the head and said, You're gonna go teach them and train them. So that's my true calling as an evangelist, is I I equip pastors and churches with our evangelism and discipleship uh training tools that we offer on our website. We can come and do a revival, but I train pastors how to teach our stuff to where they can equip and train their people because where we're different is it's not a program. There's a lot of programs out there today that they get started, they get taught. And then when I ask pastors how many of your people are still doing the program, they say, probably not any. And I say, Well, that's where we're different. Our evangelism training isn't a program, it's more of a tool. Because what it is, we actually give a follow-up plan with ours, because our goal is to help pastors create and maintain a culture of witnessing and evangelism and discipleship, how to maintain it and keep it going on the front burner of the brain, not as a program that gets done and then forgotten, but how to keep it going. And that's exactly the root and the goal of our ministry is to create and maintain that. So thank you for asking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah. Yeah, Jacob, I I love that. And uh, you know, I remember um right out of college, the first church I worked at, the denomination had these statistical reports every year. So as it got close, it was always in the summertime. Uh, so it was like this time of year we were getting ready, and we would get, like, as clergy, we would get this information and could read through all these reports. I've always been a bit of a church nerd, so I'm like the kind of person that always likes, like most people would be like, I don't want to read numbers and whatever, but I would always do that. And I still remember of the hundred or so churches that were in, you know, this area, this region, this district, I remember seeing like dozens of them that had reported as a whole church, zero baptisms and zero salvations, like for an entire year. And that was always like so confusing because you would figure as a church, you're at least one or two times a year gonna have someone randomly stumble in who's just, you know, hungry for God and like is gonna kind of almost do it on their own, you know. So I'm like, how could a whole, I don't care if it's a small church, how could a whole community of believers not see at least one person come to know Jesus in a whole year? But I mean, like you said, you know, I mean, for a lot of people, if you said to them, hey, who is the last person that you built a relationship with and really helped, you know, get to know Jesus? Most people would go, I I couldn't do that, or I don't know how to do that, or even I've never done that, because they they kind of hope and and want, maybe I could bring someone to church and then my pastor could do that, or the church could do that. So, you know, just with all that stuff that is true, like you've already said, tell us a little bit more about like what Every Believer a Witness is. Like, tell us about the organization. Um, how did you get connected with it? And how how does it and can it serve local churches?

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah, yeah. So Every Believer a Witness was started by Dennis Nunn. He's the original founder, president of Every Believer a Witness. Started back in uh technically 2003, 2005 was kind of the main, the biggest kickoff. And when I met Dennis, that that was after God was was calling me to train Christians how to be bold witnesses. And when I met him, we we we immediately connected. And he looked at me and said, Jacob, after getting to talk to you and to know you, he said, I didn't know you by name or by person, but I've been praying for you for 23 years for God to send me a Timothy, my successor. And he said, You're it. And I felt full peace, even before he said that, man, this is what I need to be doing. And uh so it was just God, just working that out. And and then the more I got into the ministry, the more I realized it's it's more than just it's like like I said before, like a program or just a training. We're teaching you how to how to really build a culture change in your church. And we're also teaching our our evangelism training, it teaches the top three ways to be a simple, practical, bold witness every day with anybody you meet, because it's designed for the normal Sunday morning attender to just have a conversation, not a presentation, and share the gospel with someone at the gas station, someone at the ball game, our own friends and family that have never heard our salvation story. Um, because a lot of times we have neighbors, and and most Christians will go out and talk to the neighbor about the ball game, or they'll be raking leaves together, drinking lemonade together, but never talk about Jesus. And we have a heart problem in America today. I and I mostly see it in America because I train pastors all over the world. I've been training pastors in Pakistan, in Uganda, Bangladesh, Africa, all over the world. But here's the thing: America is the one that's not excited about Jesus. A lot of these other countries, here's the wild thing. They say, Jacob, we want you to come teach mass crusades and to come come do what you can over here in our country. And I'm like, y'all don't need me. Y'all are already on fire in witnessing an evangelism because they're telling me of arms and hands and fingers and toes being cut off while they're experiencing biblical persecution for talking about Jesus, yet in the midst of it, they're still going from village to village with no shoes, sharing Jesus to everyone. And I tell them, I'm like, Can y'all send your armless, legless people to America, please, and help me? I said, because I can't even get Christians to share with their neighbor or their own children or their own grandchildren to share their salvation story. America has just become extremely and it's our culture. I mean, we we're a lot wealthier, we we're we're spoiled, we have everything we need. And we love to talk about what we love to talk about. Problem is, I I never hear anybody talking about Jesus, so it makes you wonder where's your heart, where's your real love? Um, because our ministry also addresses in the training the four major reasons why Christians aren't doing it, why they're not witnessing here in America. And the four major reasons, apathy. Most just aren't motivated, or many Christians just simply do not care. And that's a terrible one, is apathy. Second is ignorance. Most just do not know how. Most pastors preach the Great Commission all the time. Well, you know, no matter which gospel it's in, they love preaching the Great Commission, but they're not sharing and teaching how to do it. They'll say, hey, go, the Bible says to do this, figure it out. But we need to be, we actually teach them during the service. So it's a Sunday morning sermon series, is how we tell pastors to teach our material. Because when is the majority of your people present on Sunday morning? So teach it as a Sunday morning sermon series, make it priority. You're gonna have the most effect, and you can see sometimes 30 to 50 percent of your Sunday morning attendees on absolute fire in witnessing an evangelism. But we also cover fear and then powerlessness. So those are the kind of the top four reasons why Christians aren't sharing their faith. So we address it, we get to the root of the problem, then physically teach them how to do it during the service.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

So you you really, you know, you identified four things there. And my next question was, you know, what are some of the obstacles that quote unquote regular people are facing uh when it comes to sharing their faith? And uh, you know, I think I think those are general categories and they're spot on. What are some like can you think of specific things that you've run into where a person will say, yeah, I would share my faith, but and then you know, they they have a story, they have a something. What are some things that you're seeing uh that are keeping people, even within those categories, maybe it's a specific way you're seeing fear stop people or apathy. Uh what do you see happening in that?

SPEAKER_03 16:20

That's a great question. And and when it comes to fear, when we actually have an entire the entire service will be just on talking about defeating fear, we go through multiple different things, like you're saying, that people use as excuses, but sometimes it's just things that they actually can get past, but we first explain and teach them, guess what? Fear is normal. It's okay to have fear. So they have to understand that just because you have fear, that doesn't mean that you can't do anything. It's okay to have fear. We talk about how very prominent biblical characters in the Bible had fear. Abraham, Elijah, Paul had astounding periods of fear, but they were able to get through it. And and one of the things, too, that we teach that we see quite a bit, and you'll you'll you'll probably remember this growing up. What was the form of evangelism or witnessing we always used to call it growing up? A lot of people used to call it soul winning. And that's still a prominent term used in today's world, soul winning. And and it's a great term, but the only thing is we teach you how to forsake the soul-winning mentality. Here's why. We'll actually take the church and the the pastor through kind of this analogy of we'll say, well, who won the this year's football game in the Super Bowl? And and we'll have the church yell it out. And they'll say the Seattle Seahawks, and everybody'll be excited to talk about it. And then I'll say, who was number seven in the the the seventh in the seed in the conference? And it just gets quiet. Nobody in the church knows what you're talking about. They don't know who seventh place is. And we say, Who cares? Because we want a winner. That's all we're worried about. And if we're not careful, that same win them mentality fall falls over into witnessing. And then here's what a lot of Christians say. They say, Well, Jacob, I'm just I'm not, I'm not winning people, I'm not converting people, I'm not seeing people surrender to Jesus in front of my very eyes. I'm a failure. I failed. And we teach them, no, the Bible says Paul and Apollos, they planted, they watered seed. Guess what? God brings the harvest. So we teach them, God is the winner. The Bible says we will win some, but we try to get them to forsake the win the mentality and just realize God has commanded us to simply sow seed, plant seeds, and water seeds of the gospel. So when my when my friends call me and say, Jacob, I got cussed out today sharing the gospel, I say, Praise God, because they were just as obedient sharing the gospel as somebody else that quote unquote closed the deal and converted them to Jesus. They were just as equally obedient in sharing and planting the seed of the gospel, same eternal earthly rewards that we get from from, you know, in heaven. So that's what we we try to, it takes the stress off people when they're like, so if I don't close the deal, I'm still being an obedient witness, planting seeds, watering seeds. And we're like, yes. So just that that helps take the stress and and the load off of Christians when they realize they're they're not being expected to to quote unquote win them right there on the spot and and have to twist their arm. Because you and I both know there's no twisting arms. It's all in the Lord drawing them to a place of surrender. But that we've got to plant the seed, water seeds.

unknown 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

So that's a wonderful question.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yeah, I think I think the the Inquisition, the Inquisition kind of showed us that arm twisting isn't the best way to win people to Christ.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Hitting them in the hip with the Bible doesn't either. No.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah. So, Jacob, I got a couple questions, but my first one, because of what you just said, uh, you know, when when you hear from someone and they're like, man, I was cussed out trying to like share the gospel, and you're like, praise God, you know, yeah, like there's a sense in which faithfulness matters, but and I think most people don't like weird confrontations. They don't like, you know, to be cussed out or or whatever. But there are those kind of strange, you know, types that a lot of times find themselves into the church and they're like, woo-hoo, I just let them have it and told them about Jesus and they cussed me out, but I was faithful, so I don't care. And it's like, well, maybe they didn't cuss you out because you shared Jesus. Maybe they cussed you out because you did it in a root really weird, kind of jerky offensive way. So can you separate those two things? Like, yes, sometimes people are like, you know, resisting God, and so that causes a negative reaction versus the way we interact in the presentation, being kind and loving as well.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah, you're you're you're spot on. So a lot of times if people are getting cussed out, if they're if they're using the way that that we train them to use, I'll put it to you this way when I first got saved and and on fire, just I would I was witnessing to any anything with a heartbeat and sharing Jesus with everyone. This was before every believer a witness. I was using multiple different ways of evangelism that that I was finding and different different tips and tricks and things. And I was using all these different types of evangelism trainings, and occasionally I would get yelled. At. I've been yelled at, spit on, cussed out. People wanted to punch me in the face. But since I've been using every believer a witness and the top three ways that we teach how to witness, I'm here to tell you to this day, I've never had anyone yell at me, get mad at me, spit on me, want to punch me in the face. It's always been the opposite. I've had literal witches, atheists, Jews, and Muslims start bawling and crying, putting their arm around me, hugging me and saying, thank you so much for loving me enough to come share with me the gospel. They said, You're the nicest Christian I've ever met. And I say, I'm sorry that you've only had jerk Christians that are not filled with the Holy Spirit, truly, and showing love, because love's one of the fruits of the Spirit. So we should naturally, we should be so filled with the Holy Spirit that we're just overflowing naturally as a witness. And even Jesus, he tells us that in Scripture. He says, if you have love for one another by this, they will know you were my disciples. And then he says, Go and love your neighbor as yourself. And that does not require you going and beating them in the head with a Bible and being a total jerk. But have true love. If you truly love them enough, and you can't help but tell them the truth. And it'll it'll it'll come across genuine. If you use the the the fundamentals and everything that we equip and train you to do, it it forces you to use love in order to generate the gospel sharing uh process of it. And like I said, I've never, even most recently, um I don't know what it has been with with my encounters with literal witches in the in the last few months, but even the most recent one, same thing. Was so thankful that I took time to share my story of how Jesus changed my life. But the magic, or it ain't magic, it's the gospel. But the gospel is right in the middle of it. That's the power. So we remind people, it's not necessarily anything that you say, because your story is just a story, but when you put the gospel in it, the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus, the Bible says that's the power. It's it's the the Greek word is dunymus, the dynamite. It's powerful. And so we have to rely on the gospel. You know, if we have the Holy Spirit, why are we trying to do this on our own? Allow the Holy Spirit be so filled that that we're just like I said, naturally overflowing with love and and being a genuine witness as we're commanded to. But when we train people in the top three ways in our ministry, like I said, for me personally, I've never had anyone, and I have, I have the the way we teach with some of the hardest atheists you've ever met in your life, but they can't argue with it because it's yours. It's your story. And and I keep talking about story, but the way we teach you to write it, you actually write your story in three parts during the service, and it's very strategic. We show you how to strategically write it, and it it causes people to want to listen. It causes people, no matter how irate they are, or how mad at Christians, how mad at Jesus they are, no matter how demon-possessed they are, they'll listen. I've had them listen to my story, and all my story is is a vehicle to deliver the gospel. And that's just one of the ways. We teach you two other magnificent ways, but with doing these, I've never had anybody get mad at me. Never. It's the opposite. So I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

No, it does. And my second question, which I I really want to ask, and Jason and I, we do like we told you before we hit record, you know, we believe in training, we do trainings with local churches. So I'm not taking away from that component by asking this. But when you talked about like that second reason people don't share their faith, just being ignorance, right? They don't know how. So, you know, they need tools, they need a training. In my own experience, you know, one of the times I was the most fruitful in sharing the gospel when I was 14 years old, immediately after I would had been saved, I had no trainings. I had like all I had was my own experience. But what I did was just, you know, I told people what happened to me, and and it was very effective and fruitful. And and so then when I bump into people who God has changed their life and they just have an incredible story to tell, but they're like, but I don't have all the tools and trainings. And I'm like, sometimes all the tools and trainings put way too much in our head and actually slow our effectiveness down when if we just like let God change our lives and set us on fire and tell others about that, like so talk a little bit about again that balance between, you know, yeah, we're ignorant, we need to have some training, but man, it's really also about God's work in our lives and us being on fire enough to just share that.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Yeah, you're you're once again, you're spot on with the simplicity of what we're teaching. We're we're teaching you how to exactly do, for instance, just like I was trying to think. So when you're sharing your story, like when we start with before, you're writing it out just like you, like you were saying, you naturally did it. Because when you're when you're when you're saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, he's gonna naturally help you share your story. Because when you look at the New Testament and you go through all the miracles and everything going on, right? Everywhere Jesus healed somebody, what did these individuals do? Like you go through the entire gospel of Mark, what did everybody that he healed, whether they were demon-possessed, lame, crippled, whatever, immediately after he healed them, what did they do? They ran off and they told everybody about their experience. Even when Jesus said, Be quiet, don't you tell nobody, they did it anyway. You can't, you can't. And uh so so just uh the natural effects of the Holy Spirit driving you. That's what we're we're trying to get Christians. Look, if if if you're truly born again saved, and see, we address this. This is one of the reasons we see so many people that go through our evangelism training get on fire for witnessing. You want to know why? Because they get saved. For the first time in their life, when the pen meets the paper and they're being challenged to write their story before how since Jesus changed their life. When they get to how, you must have had a born-again moment, or you're gonna have a really tough time filling out the paper during the service. Because we give you five minutes of music in the background to write your story. A lot of times when I preach, I see church people sitting in the pews, and some of them will either start crying, some of them will just you can see them pause with their pen and they'll start looking around the room, scratching their head. Because for the first time in their life, they're realizing when the pen meets the paper, they don't have a story. They've just been like me, uh a religious churchgoer their entire life, but they've never truly had a born-again uh John 3 3 moment, right? When with Jesus and Nicodemus, because we must be born again. And then the result is 2 Corinthians 5.17. You'll you'll you'll your life will change, you'll be a new creature. So if when you're writing your story of how Jesus changed your life, if that don't get you, guess what the next part does? Because the first thing that you write about in your life since Jesus, you write, what was the first immediate life change? A lot of people, they pause, they break because guess what? They realize once again, when the pen meets the paper, their life didn't change. So a lot of times we see people get on fire and witnessing naturally filled with the Holy Spirit because they get saved, Rob, like you were talking about. How that was just a natural thing for you, even without training, to go just, man, you couldn't wait to tell somebody what Jesus did in your life. And how the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus, the power, that's what it changed your life, and you couldn't, you couldn't keep it in. It was good news. So a lot of times we see that when people get saved and on fire, um, how it's just it's natural, you can't contain it. So we also take Christians back that are true professing Christians, but over time they have forgotten the joy of their salvation. So our training actually takes them back. Even if they got saved at the age of six, we remind them in our training what they were before they got saved at the age of six. Nobody thinks they're wicked at, you know, at the age of five, but the Bible says that really, before you got saved, you were a lost, blind, dead, wicked, and enemy, ungodly enemy of God. Nobody wants to think of that when they're five, but we remind them what the Bible has to say. So it helps them appreciate and get back to a place of the joy of their salvation so that they're naturally wanting to share that with others. And then the very last part of the training, we take them through what the Holy Spirit has to do with it. And what that means, we take, we, we talk about sin. A lot of times, certain Christians in today's world are struggling with the power of the Holy Spirit because they are quenching the power of the Holy Spirit because they have sin in their life. Unconfessed sin. 1 John 1:9, we teach them, you must confess sin so that you can be cleansed and purified of all unrighteousness. That's how you get renewed with the power of the Holy Spirit. If you've got sin in your life, you're not going to feel the full power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you're probably not going to be a witness at all. And so we take them through that, and then we even talk about specific sin. Normally, at the very end, when we're done, most churches, when we teach this, we'll do an old-fashioned altar call. It's time to confess sin. Maybe you've you've heard us talk about something today, Holy Spirit's convicting you, or maybe we didn't, but the Holy Spirit's still convicting you. Today's the day we've got you. Come, come confess sin so you can be made new, be made clean, and be renewed in the power of the Holy Spirit. Most of the time when we do it in churches, there ain't anybody in the seats. Everybody is on the altar, the aisles are packed, the front rows are packed, because it is the Holy Spirit is behind all this. That's why the only one that can really mess up and screw up our ministry is this guy. Because does God want others talking and bragging about Jesus? Absolutely. So He's gonna, He's gonna take this and just run with it. And He is, He is opening doors for us. And I tell people, I'm not ringing any doorbells, but doors are just opening left and right for our ministry because God wants His people sharing the gospel, witnessing daily, and He has called me to reach the 99%. So I need all the help I can get. Yeah. Y'all have any other people? Tell me this.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah, let me let me ask you this. So uh what you're describing, I can, and maybe it's the cynic in me, but uh I can see uh where it would create kind of an in versus out mentality where you're looking around the room saying, well, they can't be in because they you know haven't experienced the born-again thing. So, you know, but I'm in because I had some experience, or like how do you help them navigate, especially churches navigate so that it's not just about a guilt-driven, I have to do this or I'm not really saved kind of deal. Instead, it truly comes out of the joy of salvation. And I'm I'm asking because I can just see people wrestling, and especially pastors wrestling with this as they're looking at their congregations. I mean, I grew up in a Christian home. I gave my life to Jesus at age seven, was baptized. I never had some big rebellious, you know, where I went off with, I mean, I experienced my call to ministry.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

When you turn 50, there's a lot of rebellion at 50.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Okay, yeah, yeah. For the last five years, it's been, but besides that, but you know, I'm I'm just, you know, like I I don't, I can't tell you, I I know when I was baptized, I know, you know, I can give you some specific things, but I can't say that, you know, my life was turned around because I wasn't in a motorcycle gang and I wasn't doing drugs, and I was, you know, I I mean I'm pretty boring. Rob can attest to that. How do you, you know, work with people who are wrestling with what you're saying, but then realizing I don't have that drastic of a story.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Yeah. So in in week two of the training, that's exactly what we talk about. So where I was talking about a little bit about and how we help people understand, get back to the joy of their salvation. Most people would say, Jacob, I don't, I don't have a story like yours. I don't have a story like Saul on the Damascus Road and a Paul moment. And the thing is, not everybody does. Sanctification is becoming holy. So it's going to be a little different than others. You know, for me, it was very drastic. Like my story was very drastic. But for some that get saved at the age of five or the age of six, they didn't really. I mean, could a six-year-old be in a motorcycle gang? I guess it's possible, but it's not likely. It's not, it's not reality. But that's where every we have to remind them and we teach them during the the service. It doesn't matter when you got saved. What you have to realize is everybody's story is different. Your story's going to be different than mine. Mine's going to be different than Rob's. But the thing is, everyone has a story. And we even go deeper. We teach you, what about this? We say, think about this. Would you rather your children, as they're growing up, would you rather them grow up and get involved in alcohol and drugs and end up robbing a bank and shooting somebody and then go to jail for 35, 40 years and then miraculously the last year in prison, they get saved. Wow, what a story. Would you rather that, or would you rather your child get saved at the age of seven and just live a glorious, godly life, never experiencing those things? And normally the church just yells out, Of course we would rather them get saved at an early age and avoid those things. So we tell them, look, it ain't that they they don't have a story. You got the best story because you didn't do all these wicked things. Just because mine sounds great, I had to go through all that. But the ones that that that didn't, they have the best story. And it's still a story that they can share. And we still teach and train them how to share that with others. And then right in the middle, put the gospel in it. Because that's the power. Because without, like I said, without the gospel, it's just a story. But with the gospel, we teach them it is a vehicle to deliver the gospel. And everybody loves the story. And the reason nobody can argue, sorry, sorry, Rob, the reason nobody can argue with their story and cuss them out is because it's your story. I can't, I can't yell at Rob about his experience. Just like Rob or Jason, y'all can't yell or get mad at me about my experience. It's mine. It's my story. So that's the that's the awesomeness of just sharing your story. Because like I said, hardcore atheists, I've had Muslims, Jews, witches listen to my story, and they can't get upset because I'm not necessarily pointing fingers at them. I'm just telling them of my experience. But right in the middle, they're hearing the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus. And that's the power. That's the seed. And whether they like it or not, guess what? It's getting planted. So that's the power. Yeah. Does that help answer your question? I have one last yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Yeah. Go ahead, Rob. Yeah, so good. I I have one last question. You know, I mean, you've alluded to this already. There, there's lots of reasons people go to church, you know. So for some people, it's because their grandparents, their parents, you know, their friends, their family, they all go to church. And so you can end up being in church as kind of a religious person without ever personally becoming a follower of Jesus. Some people are just looking for community, and so a church could just be like a social club, right? You know, there's a lot of reasons. And I'm wondering, you know, uh in America, you know, we have just kind of, we're kind of, I think, maybe on the tail end of this really interesting time in history for the last 50 years, you know, we've had this church growth movement where we have all these mega churches and all these things that are just kind of unique. And I think sometimes that has confused people. It's like, oh, well, that's a big cool thing that has stuff for my kids and lots of services and all those things. So I'm just wondering how you think the the church growth movement in America maybe has impacted evangelism. Well, whether it's like it's, you know, it's taken some of the onus off of people or, you know, whatever. How how do you see those things working together?

SPEAKER_03 40:21

I think I understand your question. When it comes to witnessing and uh and evangelism, I told the Bible tells us Acts 1.8, he says, you will be my witnesses. You know, when you receive the Holy Spirit and his power, you will be my witnesses to everyone everywhere. Matthew 28, 19 says, go and make disciples. These are imperative commands. We're told to go share the gospel. Uh Mark 16, 15, go preach the gospel. And and so here we are, we're being told to go physically go and to take the gospel, the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus to others, to go outside the church body, to go outside the church building and go reach people. That's not a lot of times, churches have have almost defaulted. If I understand your question correctly, here's one of the things. Because 99% of Christians aren't sharing their faith actively, churches and pastors have have naturally defaulted. Well, we can't get our people witnessing and sharing the gospel with people. So maybe we can just try to see how we can get more people to come here. So let's see if we can maybe get them just to invite. So the natural default now that I'm seeing in a lot of churches is well, we can't get them, we can't get our people to go physically witness. So let's just see if we can give them some church invite cards, go and invite people to come to church. And I say, that's great. Inviting people to church is a good thing, but it's not biblical. There's not a Bible verse in scripture that says, go therefore and invite them to church. What it's telling, right, that is psychologically telling our people, you don't have to go share the gospel, let the pastor do it. Just invite them to church. That way, when they come, it's the pastor's job. And that's the mindset we we're trying to, our our our evangelism training, we actually first take them through that. Look, pastors and evangelists, they share the gospel because they're a follower of Jesus. Not just because they're a pastor and evangelist, but the thing is, all believers are witnesses. Just because you're not a pastor and evangelist, that doesn't mean you get out of heaven. Just because you're timid or shy, or you say, Jacob, I don't have a very good personality. I'm not very outgoing. Can't find a single verse in scripture that talks about personality type, you're just to do it. It may be easier for others, but that's where when you you talk about your story, it makes it easier for even introverts to share the gospel because they they know their story and they're more comfortable sharing that. So we're we're trying to get people back to what the Great Commission is. It's going, even though inviting people to church, it is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but it shouldn't be the primary source of evangelism. A lot of times, too, I'm seeing uh people are trying to make churches. Church planting, that's the new evangelism. It's a good, it's a good thing to do, but we can't put it in our brain that it's the primary source of evangelism. Does that make sense? Does that answer your question? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. I and I think so. A couple thoughts real quick. I know we got to wrap up, but the first thought is I don't think the invitation thing is a response to people not sharing their faith. I think people not sharing their faith is the consequence of trying to build big churches around programs and entertainment and not discipling people, just getting them. And then all of a sudden, the time. Tide turned and the ch and the you know the pastors were the experts. And so the goal then was to get the get people near an expert so he can finish the job. And so we we almost de-discipled our people away from evangelism. And and we, you know, and and so I I feel like we're we're living in the consequence of that. And and what I hear you trying to do and with you know, with every believer or witness, is to turn that tide back around to say, hey, it is not, we have defaulted to programmatic evangelism rather than relational evangelism. We we want the programs to get people saved instead of equipping our people to actually share, you know, what God is doing in their life.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

And yet, Jason, like everybody said forever, right? Like relational evangelism is the is the most effective by miles. So it's funny, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Yeah, yeah. And I had another thought that I was trying to, and then I got stuck on that one. But I I would say too, though, I part of it is I do think that we have forgotten or we we have stopped experiencing the good of the good news. Like that, that if we can re-engage people with the good of the good news, I think it will really begin exciting people and and lighting them up, so to speak. And and you mentioned church planting. I we at the conference Rob and I were at last week, I was leading a workshop and I told him, I said, listen, you can go plant a church and hopefully make disciples. But I guarantee you this if you go somewhere and you make disciples, you will end up with a church. And that's where I think if we start changing our mentality toward discipling people in a way that, like Rob is saying, you know, makes them want to share what God is doing. I I feel like, and that I think that's what you guys are doing. That's why I was excited to have you on, is like that you are about the regular people. And and is that, I mean, am I close to what you're trying to do there?

SPEAKER_03 46:05

It it almost sounds like you have actually read through our materials because what you just mentioned, you said um uh talking about good news. You said good news. We actually that's in part of our fear, is we tell you, don't forget that you have good news. And we we take you through a full thing reminding you you have good news. Everybody keeps hearing bad news. And and you know, just like when your friends fight they find out they have cancer, that's bad news. But if you had the cure to cancer, which is good news, you would quickly go run and share the good news with them. Well, guess what? Everybody in the world is dying from spiritual cancer, sin. And we have the good news. We have the cure that can cure what what sin is, which is the wages of sin, is death. We have the cure. Why would we keep that to ourselves? It's interesting. Everything you're saying, Jason, is it it's like you you you've already been through our training, which I know you haven't been, but you're just you're spot on with everything that we get to the root causes of why, and then we train, not not for homework, we train them during the service. That way, when people get up and walk out of the sanctuary, we tell pastors this look, your people, when they get up and walk out after our training, all they can say is, I will not do this. They no longer can say, I can't. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Well, I I hate to bring this to a close, but it we're out of time. And I I want to respect your time as well as our our listeners who uh we yeah, we have a little unsaid commitment that we're gonna keep this to a certain amount of time. Um they've no one's ever complained, but you know, then again, what what what a congregation has ever complained when you ended five minutes early, too? All right. I mean, everybody likes that. But Jacob, thank you so much for the time. Uh if you want to reach out to Jacob, uh you you can do that at everybodyawitness.org. Uh, we'll put that link in the show notes, obviously. And we we I look forward to keeping the conversation going with you. And if I know I'm supposed to be down in South Carolina a couple times over the next so I might be in the general region and try to you know see what you guys are doing. Uh, we'll have to connect again because I feel like there's some tools here that are really important. Uh, that if we can we can connect the churches and the leaders who are part of the church talk podcast with some of these tools, it could be it could be beneficial. So, Jacob, blessings to you, my friend. Thank you for your time and your story and for sharing your story. Rob, it's always a pleasure seeing you, my friend. I will see you tomorrow. To our listeners, we love you, and we are cheering for you, and we are praying that this week is another great week and that you see God do amazing things. Have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Thanks for joining us today at the Church Talk Podcast. We hope the conversation encouraged and challenged you. We would love to hear from you. Email your questions or comments to Jason at ChurchtalkProje.com. The Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason is brought to you by the Church Talk Project. We work to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and church leaders around the world. Thanks for listening.