Four Years of Church Talk: Reflecting on Trends and Leadership

Join Rob and Jason as they celebrate over four years of podcasting, sharing insights on church trends, leadership, worship, and the importance of focusing on Jesus in ministry. They explore the evolving landscape of the American church, the tension between tradition and innovation, and how to lead with purpose and character.

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Chapters

00:00 Celebrating 4 Years of Podcasting
3305:30:56 Reflections on Guest Appearances and Content
6749:57:45 The Importance of Consistency in Ministry
10277:44:34 Trends in the American Church: Hope and Challenges
13166:38:01 The Rise of Younger Generations in Faith
18694:24:59 Church Growth: Long-term Faithfulness vs. Quick Wins
24722:11:49 The Role of Character and Leadership in Growth
36277:45:28 Balancing Tradition and Innovation in Worship
448611:05:47 The Centrality of Jesus in Church Life
585277:46:13 The Danger of Religious Legalism and Pharisaic Attitudes
668055:33:05 The Power of Love and the Gospel in Ministry
750555:33:20 Encouragement for Pastors and Leaders
766111:06:40 Resources and Next Steps for Churches and Leaders

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason. We are really glad you're here and you're listening and you're tuning in because man, we just love the fact that someone actually listens. We have been doing this, Rob, for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Yes. In fact, you and I were just discussing this. This is episode 208. And even for those of our listeners who may not be smarter than fifth graders, because I'm not sure we are, you know, rudimentary mathematics tells us that 52 times 4 is 208. So as of this episode, we have four full years of of episodes and content. That's just crazy.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

That is. And I feel like, you know, it's it's kind of like at church, you know, you like the the main guy is or the main person is you like hearing them because that's what, you know, but sometimes having guests in is great, but you don't want it always to be a guest. Like you really just and I feel like sometimes when we're talking, like this sounds weird, but there are times that I feel like the guest is just in the way. A recent guest. No, no, no, please don't hear that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah. Well, and we've had we've had guests multiple times. You know, we had Derek Sanford a couple times. We had the oh, I just spaced the illustrious uh the guy who works for Enjoy. Brian Dodd. Yeah, Brian Dodd three times. Oh, he's awesome. Love Brian. I was just I think about him all the time. I mean, he just everything he says, everything he writes, it's gold. And and it's gold, not just because it's good, it's gold because his heart is so Jesus-y, you know, and and then uh the seed bed guy, man. The last time he was on, JD was uh he just he rocked my world, man. Like that fed my soul and actually made its way into a sermon and all sorts of things. So yeah, sometimes like magic happens, and then you know, and again, sometimes because and the listeners don't really, you know, know this or think about this per perhaps, but you know, for us, when we have a guest, there's a lot of extra coordination and just figuring things out, and so it's it's it's actually a lot more work, um, which is fine. But uh and then we've we've actually said no to plenty of guest opportunities too, just because we didn't feel like it was going to help encourage and equip and engage with pastors and leaders. So we just were like, hey, we think what you're up to is great, but we don't feel like this is is really for our audience. So yeah, I mean it's just four years of figuring that out. And we talked about this because we had one just uh in the last couple weeks where uh you uh you had sent me a thing and my actually my watch beeped and said, your podcast is starting in 15 minutes. And it was the first day of high school golf practice. I'd been one of the high school golf coaches for a number of years now, and I was like, I have too many things going on in my life because everything kind of converged, and I'm like, I better call Jason and tell him we had a guest that day, or else we could have just pushed it a little bit. But I'm like, hey man, I'm still on the golf course, and I really apologize. My my life just got overwhelmed. But for the most part, like I think there's two or three times in four years where we've had things like that. But other than that, you know, I mean, we've sort of been here week after week just to encourage and connect with our people.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah, you know, you just kind of gave yourself away there because I covered for you saying that you were on study leave and that you know schedules were such you just couldn't be at this one. Like I I I really built you up and made you sound great, and now you're saying you just forgot. Well, though that was true too. Well, I mean things can be true at once. Okay, valid. I I mean I didn't lie. I was you truly are on kind of a steady break, and that's what July is all about. And I was just, man, I I I do actually have your back most of the time. Unless we're face to face, then it's like no old score. Or if I'm on your uh you know, your scramble squad and then I totally screw up a whole yeah, sometimes that happens, but you know Yeah, when you play against me, you play way better, and then when you play with me, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

I don't I don't know if it's just that you hope or pray, think maybe I'm gonna contribute more shots than I am capable of, but uh I don't I don't know what happens. You kind of you relax too much. You sharpen my saw. No, but seriously, Jason, I just think it's really cool uh to think. I mean, I we could easily Google, and so could our listeners, like podcasts, they don't they don't typically live very long, they don't typically last, you know, people don't typically make it through that many episodes before they get sporadic and then just kind of heater up because it does take a lot of time and energy to say, hey, like what are we gonna talk about? When are we gonna talk? How are we gonna prep for this? You know, who's gonna be on with us? So four years of every single week. It's just really cool to think about. And I I still, just so our listeners know, I still like you, I still love you, you're still my friend. And uh, we were talking just this morning about like three possible conversations we could have today. So, I mean, there there are still so many conversations to be had that I think are pertinent and will be super helpful and relevant to people who are leaders in the church who are in ministry. So I'm excited to have these conversations.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Oh yeah, and right back at you, my friend. You know, after all this time, man, we we even drove to DC and back with your wife and youngest son and spent the week there with stuff, and we still actually love each other and would consider ourselves best of friends. So that's saying something, that must be the Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, hey, so this is you know, the four years we're gonna kick this this will kick off season nine, which really is a completely made-up thing. It doesn't matter. But I I wanted to start, I think, just talking because we've been together so long doing this, and and you know, years before that we were still working together on stuff, just we didn't have a podcast. I'm just curious as you look around and and as you because you're you stay pretty well connected with trends in the church, trends, you know, just nationwide. You you you are connected with exponential, you're connected with some of those, you know, more national movements. And so I'm just curious, like as you look around, let's let's pull back and say, what kind of trends are you seeing? And and I've I can think of a few too, but what kind of trends are you seeing in the American church that uh, you know, good or bad? Like I don't mean this as a let's pick all the terrible things, but in the same breath, I'm just curious, like you're you know, middle of summer, you're you're on kind of a study leave, so you don't have to prepare a sermon every week for a couple weeks. What are you seeing? What do you want? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah, so you know, one of the things uh obviously, and I think probably everyone even listening is thinking something in their head, and we probably have it you know on our list that we'll we'll get to. But it's easy to think about and go to the pessimistic things, you know, that maybe drive us nuts. I'd love to start with something that like I'm super excited about and hopeful about. And I know people have been talking about this for a while, and then I've also heard people talking about it like, oh, it's not really real or it's artificial or whatever, but just the number of younger people who are who are like literally excited about, passionate about Jesus, are finding faith, are being committed not just to God, but like in an expression of the local church too, and just uh and I'm thinking of one young lady uh who has been coming to our church maybe for a year, maybe not, and she had musical abilities, and so she started uh participating in the worship team. Actually, we're doing a series this month called Stories, and uh her story when the day we're recording in two days, her story is gonna be the one that plays. And she has this great line where she said, you know, I I I kind of knew of this God or about this god that I was like singing to or worshiping, but since being at New Hope, I've actually gotten to know this God, like she's developed and she's actually getting baptized next month, too. So just super cool. But, you know, we've had the privilege not only of doing that, but we actually invited her to exponential. One person we'd been inviting for a long time was finally able to go. And she's like, man, like I just love this young lady, and we're good friends, and we're like, oh, they could room together and it'll make it like better for both of them. And we saw potential in her as well. And she came and it helped her connect relationally, it helped her like learn and grow and see things, and she's like, Why would the church invest in me as this, you know, 20-something uh in this way? But man, like it just totally changed her life. We've been in a small group with her, and we've been watching her grow like crazy spiritually. So, you know, like I and and our whole church, like we've just seen lots and lots of young people, young families. Now they have their own sets of struggles and issues and challenges. It's not like all like roses and unicorns, but uh man, like I am I am very, very hopeful, not just now, but about the future of the church as I see, you know, God really awakening the hearts and minds of younger people.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

That is cool. I mean, and and I I see that too. I don't, you know, hear the reports and you know that stuff, and and it's so hard for me to know. I mean, because every church is different, every community is different. You know, some of the churches I visit haven't had a new person walk in their door in, you know, like six years. Uh, but then others, they like are busting at the seams. So like I can't I can't say that across the board every church is experiencing that. Sure. I do think there are a lot of churches that are, especially the churches that have said, hey, we want to do what it takes to reach the next generation of of you know people in America, because that's where we live. And and and I'm noticing that that commitment, I think that's really important because that should then begin to inform a lot of your decisions. Yeah, yeah. And how you pre- and and at some point it's gotta move from the pastor saying that, or the you know, chairman of the board or whatever, to the regular folk who come to the church, right? Like it's gotta be more than just a statement we make or a you know, a pithy little thing we put on the wall. People have to actually agree and believe that and then start to understand the implications, right? I mean, if if we're truly gonna engage a younger group, you know, the next generation of 20 and 30 somethings, that means the way we go about just operating as a community has to be such that it would welcome them.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah, and and that there's some implications of that, right? And and yeah, and and I I want to give some context because you know, you and I, I mean, we've sort of said all these things, but you know, I you know, my church is a little bigger, uh, it's not a huge church, but it's a little bit bigger. And uh, and so people might go, well, of course, you know, Rob has a bigger church and and uh you know they can do more things, and so of course, like they have a bunch of younger people and younger families and things like that. But I but I want to emphasize, because yes, like where we do have limiting factors and realities about like our location and those types of things. But like for the listener, I just want to also remind you, I like live and do ministry in a village of 2,300 people in the middle of nowhere. And uh, and so like we do we definitely have significant constraints. And for years, like I was like, we are a very multi-generational church, so we have people in their 90s, 80s, 70s, you know, all the way from top to bottom. And and for years, I'm like, you know, with our contemporary and kind of creative approach to virtually everything, like I I was always shocked by, you know, like when people would be teenagers and they'd be like, eh, I'm not gonna I don't want to go to church. And but then like their you know, 50-year-old parents would be there. And it's like, I, you know, I just like our church is so like engaging for younger people. And so like the fact that older people tended to love it and sometimes younger people would just discard it was always like a little bit of a weird thing, but we still kind of stayed committed to the kinds of like approaches and styles and whatever's that would, you know, kind of lean to being open and comfortable for like a younger generation. And I think it's because we sort of stayed committed to that and and said, and and we do this even like when we're picking leaders or we're picking replacements. It's like, hey, like who is younger, who can who can who can who has potential that if we put them in that role, man, they could bring a different voice to kind of reflect to these people. If it's just, I mean, you and I joke about this, like we are firmly middle-age, like you know, white dudes, and you know, we think a certain way, we see things a certain way, our perspective is a certain way, you know. You get you get some women in the mix, and they're gonna add flavor and they're gonna challenge our perspective because they're gonna maybe have a slightly different perspective. You get some older people and they're gonna have a different perspective. It's gonna bring, you know, some seasoning and some wisdom. You get younger people and they're gonna they're gonna help us see how the things we've always done that we we just think this is it and this is gonna always be it, they're gonna help us see how some of those things actually aren't it anymore. And if we want to stay relevant and actually stay in existence, we're gonna have to like make some changes and some shifts. So, you know, I just I feel like there's beauty across the spectrum of the body of Christ. And it's not just when you turn 50 and have 20 years of service in, then your voice can count. You know, we need people that God has sort of like given leadership gifts to and who are faithful. We need to give them opportunities, you know, in their 20s, 30s, 40s, like all the way through.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Tell me this. How do you and because I was on a call with the church recently, and this was a tension that I I sensed. There were some older members, right, of this church, and some of what they were expressing was they felt left behind by the new initiative, new this, new that, you know, and and one of the things they talked about was they they didn't want to lose the the theological and even the just the grounding of and then they're you know, they're they were speaking or thinking about you know the music and the the hymns of the faith and how those were such you know theological backbones for them that helped them learn and know. And and I know there's a lot of hymns out there that the theology is really bad, let's be honest. You know, some but I mean a lot of it is you know, it's the ones that have truly survived and so forth. That you know, there's a lot of just very deep stuff in that. And you know, let honestly the new the newer music, uh Christian music is I I very little of it would I say is deep and theological. Some of it is, like, I'm not trying to think.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Like there's there's great contemporary stuff that have depth and meaning and power, and and and there's other stuff that we sang the same line like for seven minutes, and you know, like I don't really know.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

And then there's same with well, how do you like how do you enter that tension? I mean, you're the lead guy, you ultimately the buck stops with you on on things like this. And I know Jeremy, your worship leader, is you know, he's great, and I love Jeremy, and he makes really good decisions on that stuff. But I'm just curious how you guys wrestle through that tension of we do have people who really connect with some of the, you know, because music speaks to the heart, and so and and what they're finding is your favorite music is basically the music when you were a teenager, you know, and that's that's kind of you just that's it becomes nostalgic, right? And so whatever that was is probably what you're drawn to. Um, I don't know how do you guys engage that tension or or or wrestle with it in in your setting?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Man, I have like a million things in my head to say about this. First of all, it's unique, right? Because we are a 20 almost four-year-old church. So for us, we act it's actually an inverted thing for us, because we've just done contemporary and original stuff literally for almost a quarter of a century, but which is a very short amount of time for like a church. So we're super duper young. And so what we do, because like contemporary stuff is really kind of like our our go-to, our brand, our whatever, is we we are trying to like figure out, and for some people they really love it, and you know, because they they are newer to the church and they've come from maybe a more traditional setting or whatever, or slightly older church. And so they're like, but we love the hymns, and so we are like we're actually trying to figure out how to do him kinds of things in way, you know. So, so for us, like us kind of retaining our kind of historic foundation, if you will, is actually the contemporary stuff, and then we're trying to introduce you know more traditional things because we know that they have depth and value and meaning as well. So I I you know I think that's really unique. I also think that there's this tension. I'm actually thinking about one couple that was highly involved in lots and lots of ways, and just as they've gotten older, the number of things that they have had the energy to do has diminished. And and that's that's a part of life, right? Like as a 51-year-old, I would say the same thing. Like, I can't do everything that I could do as like a 35-year-old. So I have to be a little bit more focused and selective because I'll just like I'll run out of juice to to keep going. And so I have noticed, again, I'm just using this one family as an example, you know, sometimes their perspective has become, you know, things just aren't like they once were, when the truth is probably more we just aren't in the know like we once were. So we don't like all these things, and and in a lot of respects, in greater ways, are actually still happening, but because of like their their shift in just ability to be present and help lead and be a part of things, and and that was like them, not us. We didn't say, Hey, you can't lead this anymore. Like that was them going, hey, like we we just are hitting the age where we just need to do do less things, and so we're gonna step back from this and only do these things, which is great. I think that but there's just always that tension, right? And sometimes I think what what we tend to do is we go, those people, man, they've been here forever. They have like literally helped us survive and thrive in so many ways, and so like we we sometimes now I think that their voice should have honor and respect and weight, but sometimes we tend to like weight those voices in much too heavy ways, and so then what ends up happening is like, man, like because you know, in a decade or two, you know, they're gonna not be here anymore. They're gonna be hanging out with Jesus. Uh, but all the people we ignored whose voices we sort of thought didn't have any weight or as much weight may no longer be here because what we were doing is we were we were listening to the the preferences and the perspectives of you know the the generation that are getting ready to go hang out with Jesus. And and and so I think sometimes we do have to say, you know, not to the neglect of like theology and underpinnings and foundational kinds of things, but what mission has God given us? And and you know, I believe a big part of that is helping people you know find, know, and follow Jesus. And so, you know, if if what we're doing has great depth, but nobody's coming to like experience that depth, or for this generation, if the things that help that generation connect and learn and grow are just not anymore for any number of reasons, like we we really have to wrestle with these things and go, you know, we completely understand, but we we really do need to take this step and move this direction.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah, I mean, if you're if if you think you're leading but no one's following you, you're really just taking a walk. That's good. I like that. And this is where you have to you have to help people understand, and this is probably you could throw this into the bin of discipleship, but there is a point at which the purpose has to take priority over your preference, right? And and so just because I like this, or 20 years ago this was really special to me, that doesn't mean that it is accomplishing the purpose of why we exist now. And so we have to, you know, help people decipher hey, is this a preference or is this really, you know, because you're doing this, it's either moving forward or it's hurting the purpose of the church, not just my preference for the way I would like something done. And and that's a hard conversation to have, right? I mean, that that's not something you you you wake up in the morning and go, oh, I can't wait to engage that kind of conflict today. But but in the same breath, it is that is. Really, what being a pastor and being a leader in your congregation, if you're going to paint a picture of, hey, here's where God has called us to go and where God is drawing us, and here's some things we're going to have to do to really move in that direction, you got to help people connect with that instead of just defaulting to, hey, but I like doing this, so let's just keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, and I and I think too, like just reasonably and realistically, we've got to get away from the idea of like these blanket statements that might have like just a sliver of truth but aren't really true. For example, and we've already said this one, like, you know, hymns have depth and substance and theological kind of whatever, gravitas, and like all the contemporary stuff is just like wishy-washy and is like nothing, right? Like that is true in some ways, and it's completely false in other ways. Like, I I remember doing a nursing home service, and there was the and they had their own little book, right? And so we go through the book and thank God I was married so Bethany could play the piano and we could kind of like yeah, and and one of the songs that this nursing home, and I'd never even heard it before this. I've even said this to other pastors, and uh, and they're like, uh, I've never heard that name. But there was this uh, I think I don't remember what it was, but it was about the church in the wild wood, right? And so basically, like the chorus is this oh come come come come come to the church in the wild wood, come to the church in the day, you know, and it's like and you sing that like a hundred times in the like four things, and and I'm just like, yeah, I I have I'll just be I'll just name names. Like my wife, she doesn't like contemporary stuff that just has like it's so repetitive that there's and so oceans, it's like whatever, seven, eight, nine minutes of just like walking on the water, like, all right, let's get on to something else now, right? It's like to me, those are the same things, right? Like, oh god, like where's the theological depth and value about the little church and the wildwood and like coming to the you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Right?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

It's nostalgic to think about it is so yeah, we have got to instead of like, well, my preference is more that that stylistically is that, and so it's and it's and it's really it makes me feel good to say that that equals kind of theological weightiness and depth, and if people would just sing those songs, they would grow spiritually like I did because I sang those songs when I was a kid, and it's like meh, maybe it's the consistency of showing up, reading the scriptures, praying, singing, worshiping, regardless of what like this the style is. Um maybe it's the consistency that builds kind of that depth and growth into us, not you know what exactly we were were were not singing.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah, and and that's where pastors need to be thinking. Number one, and then this kind of goes into another trend that I've seen is people still need Jesus, right? I I mean, I it if anything, the the the surveys are saying that fewer and fewer people are are following Jesus when they do a survey of America, right? And so whatever. I mean, you can take that, you can question all you want. But the bottom line is there are people out there who have not met Jesus, they need to know you know the gospel, they need to hear the good news. And so whatever we're doing, it needs to lead to us proclaiming that Jesus loves you, right? And and and and that's so whether we do it with hymns, whether we do it with contemporary music, whether we do it with no music, whether we, you know, like it doesn't matter. The point is, as a church, are we making Jesus known to the people in our community in such a way that they would actually want to follow him? Because I mean, I do know of churches and people who have made Jesus known to the community, but not in a way that was very, you know, very attractive at all. And I'm not even talking attractional ministry. I just mean they pretty much just told everyone how terrible they were and they were going to hell. And well, that's that's also not a good way, you know, to share the good news of Jesus. And so uh as I think about this preference, right, over purpose and the idea that people still need Jesus, I I do think that's you know, that is something that's going on. Uh and and maybe a tension that I feel in that is that there are and I'm feeling this as I have conversations with pastors really all all over the the East Coast and and really across the nation. There's this tension of people need Jesus. I need to be helping people, equipping people to share Jesus, but I'm also running an organization as a church, church org. And so there's this I'm expected to be a CEO that runs a company or an organization, but also a pastor who shepherds and disciples and equips people. And I think a lot of pastors they didn't get into the ministry because they were gifted to be a CEO. They got into ministry because God called them to shepherd and to care and to teach and to preach. But I think the expectations today are moving us towards more of a CEO model. And and there's, you know, Todd Wilson has this new book out, How We Got Here. I've seen other things, you know, that the the church growth movement and then the the megachurch movement and all these things have really elevated pastor as CEO as a needed part if your church is gonna ever be successful. And and I think I I don't know, I feel like a majority of pastors are not wired to be CEOs. Like that that's just not but does that make them lesser? Like, you know, does that mean they won't succeed in the world today? Like that that tension is there. I don't do you feel that or um you you're more gifted towards a CEO like gifting and wiring, which is fine. Yeah, yeah. You you like to get the puppy standards, yeah. But I mean, like that that's so that doesn't bother you? You don't feel the weight of that in in a way that I think some pastors feel it, because you can move in that ground.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

But what I don't know, what do you think? Well, if I'm being honest, and and this is you know, this is something that uh yeah, this is something that I like forever I would struggle with saying things like this because like you, I even though I kind of rip on you for this, I'm similar in that like I don't like I talk a big game, but I really do care and I care about people, and you know what I mean, and I feel the weight of things, and I I I I I'm not just like I'm gonna like say the truth and consequences be damned, kind of a thing. But no, I mean, I feel like the uh the just the I am too old and too tired a lot of the time to really care about the expectations of everyone. And so that's probably the reason I don't feel kind of the weight of that, not necessarily kind of my proclivities, because both of those things that you just said, Jason, I feel like it's there's this sense in which you know people say with fashion or music or whatever, if you wait long enough, it it goes out of style, but it comes back into style. And I I feel like when you said, hey, people still need Jesus, and so is churches, we need to be focused on that. I feel like that really, really matters because I think for a long time we were saying, like, in America, we're a Christian nation, everybody either like uh knows Jesus or knows enough to know how to get to him if they should choose that. So let's go other places and do other things because we've kind of like you know evangelized America. And and you know, now we're kind of back to the point where that's not true anymore. And so, and so yeah, like there are people that need Jesus, and there were people who needed Jesus even when we thought kind of most people knew Jesus. And and I think the same is true with just trends in terms of church leadership style, you know, like this whole idea. Because I would even say, as you think about pastor CEO, I have I I get resume kinds of things all or our job description things all the time. People like, hey, we're looking for we're looking for this position, or we are looking for a new pastor. Do you know anybody? And I am amazed. This could even be for a church of 70 people, you know, looking for a part, well, they want a you know, full-time pastor, but like they're gonna pay a part-time salary for this role. And literally, you know, the number of requirements and expectations and things on the job description are things that Jesus, you know, if there were 12 of him, could not successfully navigate and live.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Like it's just like at chemistry staffing, you know, I work with them on stuff and and our our little insider languages, churches like that are looking for a J Wag that's uh Jesus with a guitar. Yeah, that's kind of you know, like that, that's what they want. And it's like and they only want to pay him part-time, you know. I'm like, come on, you you you're asking for something that's just not realistic.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Hmm, mm, yeah, yeah, for sure. Hey, so let me let me let me hit another trend that uh like really stands out to me, and I think it kind of ties in here as well, you know, and we kind of alluded to this, and I alluded to it a little bit too, saying younger people like are showing up like crazy at my church, but again, I'm in the middle of nowhere in a very small community. So like don't use, well, that that might work for you, but it wouldn't work for me for these number of reasons. It's like, yeah, like I think sometimes like we like to blame certain things that aren't really to blame. But you know, like the idea that some churches are growing and some churches just don't seem to be growing, and like, you know, what what what contributes to like all of those things and sort of the tension of that? And I've said this for a long time because I, you know, I think there's there's ways to have healthy and sustainable growth, uh, but those those typically require a long time and a long tenure and a lot of foundation and building. The things that tend to grow more quickly are either just like these very unique lightning in a bottle, right person, right place, right time, kind of whatever things, which does happen, but it's not like the norm. And you can't replicate it. You can't. You can't use that as the model to say this is what we're gonna do. Or the reason that they grow is is like not like really what Jesus cares about or wants us to be about. Like, you know, they're growing for other reasons, not because people are really being transformed. And we've got to be careful with that, especially in our context, because in America, you know, if your church goes from 50 to 100 to 200 to 500, whoo, you know, like look at all that Jesus is doing in and through me. But man, if you were just that consistent, faithful shepherd who is helping people to know and follow Jesus and and then their kids and their kids, you know, like I mean, and so generations of people are impacted, like that's not really celebrated. And what are you doing wrong? And what can you know, there's just all these tensions in our culture when one of those things is is really Christ-like, and the other one, you know, is kind of a flash in the pan, and and people will celebrate it for a minute, but that that's not really something that's going to, you know, last and have significance. It's just kind of you know, one of those things.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah, and and oftentimes people who are leading a movement like that that is fast growing, and and if if their character is not solid, it will put them in a position for a huge fall. Now, I'm not saying people where that happens to automatically don't have good character, but I'm saying in a situation like that, if your character is not solid and you are not grounded with accountability built into your life, then that kind of success, and and I say success, that kind of growth, right? That rapid, you know, huge will set you up to fall really hard. And so that's why when I hear of, you know, we our friend, you know, Josh down in South Carolina, like his church is exploding, and and I mean, it's just like three, four years old, and it's exploding, they're buying land. They're I mean, well, you and I have spent enough time with Josh to know this is not him manipulating something and doing this or that or what, you know, his character is solid, and you know, his wife will beat him into submission if he does anything stupid. We've met her, we know.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

His wife is his character is solid because of Sarah, that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

That's pretty much what I'm saying, yes. Uh but you know, like it's solid, and that means as this growth happens, the likelihood of it leading to something bad is it diminishes quickly because in the long, like arduous time where there isn't growth, when you are establishing your character, your relationship with God, you're solidifying all that. Then when the time does come and something does happen and you know it explodes with good positive growth, you're ready and it's not about you, right? It's now it's about it's truly about God. And and you can kind of step back and like you're saying, say, hey, look what God is doing. Not because of me, not even with me or through, but look what God is doing. Let's celebrate and and let's fan that into flame.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah. So, Jason, as we're as we're talking about this, especially as we're I'm I'm kind of putting a lot of these little things together here, and uh, and this is kind of what's in my head, because you know, if if someone was thinking about, well, what are reasons that churches grow? And so you might like one example might be you might have like a really, really good, gifted worship leader, and you live in an area or community where music is just like a big draw or attraction, or you have like just like some wacky, awesome, gifted children's pastor, you know, like there's lots of reasons why you know that or you just you were able to because of the makeup of your people, and you had some big hitters who wanted to be super generous, and man, you you have the nicest space in your area, and so people want to come hang out at the beautiful new building, or you know, there's lots of reasons why that happens. And and we've already talked about music, you know, uh a little bit, but I I I want to kind of like say something a little more dicey here because I think sometimes, you know, when you were saying people still need Jesus, I think sometimes, like we as as ministers and as Christians, we take other things that are really good things and even important things, and we elevate those above Jesus. Like we'll say things like, you know, people really need the Bible, they really need to know what the Bible says, they need to just be in their Bible every day. Like that is the goal, right? And and that's a great, that's a great thing. I I'm I you know, be in your Bible every day, study the scriptures, know what the you know, encounter the living God through his eternal word, you know, all those things. Absolutely. But, you know, there's plenty of churches out there that have placed such a priority on the Bible to the detriment of, you know, like, or in place of people coming to know and follow Jesus. And so we have a bunch of people in some churches that, man, like they are Bible scholars, they are Pharisees, they sometimes are in churches where nobody comes to know Jesus in the course of a year. So they become Bible trivia experts, but they're literally not being transformed, uh, nor are they seeing transformation happen in other people's lives. So, you know what I mean? Like, I and it's such I'm I'm not that that that's not like I know we got one listener who might want to write an angry, you know, email about how can you like you know besmirch the Bible like that? I'm not at all. I love the scriptures, huge part of my life. But when we take those and we elevate them above Jesus, and it's like, well, hey, like you are awesome with the word, but you don't know the eternal logos of Jesus Christ, that is a problem.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Yeah, that's I I would call that Bible ultrae, right? Where you're worshiping the Bible instead of worshiping the word made flesh in Jesus. And and obviously the Bible reveals to us Jesus. So it's not, you know, I don't want to act like the Bible doesn't matter. It's quite the opposite. It really matters, but when you worship, and and it's and we've said this on here before, but if your doctrine or your theology leads you to be hateful or to hate people, then your doctrine and theology are wrong. So I don't care how much you know the Bible, if it leads you to be a jerk, then you're not really studying the Bible correctly, because Jesus said it should lead you to love your love God and love your neighbor. And if you're not being loving even to your enemies, then you are not truly following Jesus, even if you're trying to abide by the letter of the law, which is exactly what the Pharisees were doing, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:07

I mean, that's yeah, and so yeah, I don't find any fault in us. We're doing all the things that this says, all 613.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

That's right, it's right, but you're not loving, and you're you know, you're basically causing people to stumble and fall and not be in a relationship with their creator because you've made it so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

And so that's yeah, yeah, and and then we're not gonna get into this in this episode, and we've already talked about it plenty in the past, but man, like when you when you think about things like that, right, and and you end up in environments like that, we can start to because we're Fair Saic and we follow all the rules, and other people who don't follow the rules are somehow lesser than us, right? We start to use the Bible as a club to like to beat people instead of something to help and encourage and lead and guide and breathe life and instruct and help and correct and whatever. Um and and the you know, it's it's the one of the things we see kind of with this continued and increasing political divide, like in that that is just infected the church. And people on both sides of the aisle are like, Well, I'm more like Jesus because I associate with this party, and we know that Jesus kind of largely agrees with with us and virtually everything, and it's like, ugh, man.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Well, this this takes me back to, and we've had this conversation a long time ago, but uh the the idea of the center set as opposed to a bounded set, and and the divisions come when we are thinking in terms of a bounded set. That's how we look at our faith, our Christianity. It's it's uh it it the people who are in our group, you know, we we have a very clear boundary by what and it's marked by what you believe, right? And and and by the doctrine that you're holding, and the the the way that you express that. And you know, are your is your morality in line with my morality? And therefore you can be in my set. So you're a good Christian. But when we look at how Jesus operated and really how scriptures seem to present God, it's more of what you know, mathematicians, that's a whole nother episode we can get into, but talk about the center set, where the the thing that keeps people connected within a group is not the boundaries that hold them in, but instead it's what's at the center. And as they are aligned toward the center, it doesn't matter how far away from the center you are, if you are moving toward the center, then you are part of that set. And that's where I feel like as as churches, part of what we need to do is to take on that mindset. And and one of the illustrations that I've I've seen, I wish I could remember who said it, but I've seen it in different ways. The idea that in Australia, you know, a cattle rancher is gonna have thousands of acres and it's inhospitable land, and building a fence around it is ridiculous. I mean, it's just not gonna happen. So the way that they keep their cattle, you know, in one place, instead of building fences to keep them in, they dig a well so that then the cows, the cattle are drawn to where the fresh water is. And so we as churches, like my challenge to churches is hey, instead of worrying about building fences, what if you start digging deep wells that flow over with the love of Jesus in ways that everyone is attracted to it? And it's not because they're doing the right thing, they're saying, it's because they're attracted to who Jesus truly is. And so that kind of imagery is what's really exciting me moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

So good. Well, hey, Jason, as we wrap up today, I just want to say, you know, as we talk about all these things, even at a time of year where for a lot of pastors, maybe you're you're taking some vacation this summer, you know, it's a it's a little bit of a slower pace depending on your role. If you're not the youth guy with like four different camps and all those things, right? And and that's good. But I think as we're talking about all these trends and all these challenges, it's really easy to see how pastors all the time have so much on their plates. And so, like you just said, we want to encourage you, regardless of all those challenges, regardless of the things that may cause you to be feeling like you're just hanging on by a thread. Man, if we could say one thing to you today, don't like orient yourself toward all those issues and challenges. Yeah, you've got to navigate those. But make sure you start every day pointed toward the well of Jesus. Look to him for your sufficiency, for your encouragement, and know that you have people cheering you on and you can reach out to us, shoot us emails. Uh, we would love to encourage you as a boss.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah. And with that, uh just so everyone knows, our YouTube channel is live. If you want to watch this, which scares me a little, but if you want to watch this, you you can go to our YouTube channel, youtube.com backslash church talk podcast. Uh, we've got lots of other videos that we're uploading there as well, and we're we're working on some ideas to even you know expand that. Um, I'm I'm looking at starting a newsletter just to keep people updated. So go to our website, churchtalkproject.com. You can sign up for the for the email. I'm not gonna, I'm way, I got way too busy to be doing that on a regular basis, but it'd be like, you know, once a month just to update you, let you know what's coming, uh, what's been happening, and uh what were on some of the episodes in case you missed one. And uh also you know, Rob and I are available, not you know, like nonstop, but to to help out whether you need just a phone call to you know, bounce some ideas around, or maybe it's you know, a training that would be good for your staff. Uh, Rob and I are more than happy to try to make something work uh and come visit and hang out and get engage, you know, equip and encourage you. So we we love you and we are excited for the next year, four years, eight years, however long it ends up being. We're excited and we just love what God is doing, and we're happy for you. Have an amazing week. We'll talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Thanks for joining us today at the Church Talk Podcast. We hope the conversation encouraged and challenged you. We would love to hear from you. Email your questions or comments to Jason at ChurchtalkProje.com. The Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason is brought to you by the Church Talk Project. We work to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and church leaders around the world. Thanks for listening.