Rob & Jason - Learning from Different Streams

In this episode, Rob and Jason explore the diversity of church styles, the importance of community and participation, and how different worship environments can still honor God and foster growth. They share insights from their experiences visiting various churches and reflect on what truly makes a church effective.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason. We're so glad that you joined us today. Hope you're having an amazing day. I don't know when you're listening to this. It might be a Tuesday, it might be a Sunday. Maybe you're skipping church. I don't know. But we're glad that you took a little time. Yeah. Because it's going to be a we got a great conversation lined up. Looking forward to it. Rob, how you doing, man?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I am good. So uh we had a guest recently. We are I already had called her out, like, so I don't need to name names again, but before we hit record, she confessed to you and I that she had listened to like a dozen episodes just to prepare, just to kind of get a feel for you know what kind of podcast we were, who you and I were, which was great. Maybe maybe the first podcast guest in the history of the world who's ever done that amount of kind of research and prep work, which hey, kudos to her. But she you know, she enjoyed that. She did, which is kind of a miracle in and of itself. But she totally like knows that we love golf and talk about golf and all those kinds of things. And so she just uh she she said, Yeah, you know, like your mediocre golf games. And like, you know, in that moment, I think I don't know about you, but in my heart and mind, I kind of thought to myself, well, we may have to like pull the plug on this episode before we even record it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Um I didn't publish it. I already I just deleted her.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Deleted it. Good. Well, I mean, that's probably good. It's probably good. No, I'm just kidding. But uh, you know, and if you've listened for a while, you know that Jason and I love golf, and I've actually now for years been one of the high school golf coaches. And uh my oldest son actually played his senior year before he went to college, but it was only because he was dating a girl and she volunteered that he was gonna be on the golf team with her. And uh like his whole life I tried to get him to play golf. I bought him kids' sets, and you know, I mean, he would sort of placate me for 10 minutes, but that was about it. But his younger brother, you know, has been interested in golf. And as a little kid, I remember going to driving ranges with him and again buying him sets that he actually wanted to use and did use. And so last year he was on the junior high golf team, and this year he's on the junior high golf team. He's an eighth grader for this coming year. And uh, so they've started practicing while they have their first away match coming up, and uh, Liam qualified in the top six. And so uh this coming Monday he will he will do that. And it's funny because he's also in a play and he has the lead role in this play. But yesterday, when I got word he qualified in the top six, I'm like, hey, listen, like I totally get that you're gonna prioritize because your play is gonna come and go here pretty quickly. It's your last junior high theater production, but you're committed to two things right now. And and so um, I'm like, what does that look like? And it, you know, like because yeah, you can't let the people you're in the play with down, but also if you're if you qualify as one of the top golfers, in essence, you're also letting your team down if you just never participate, you know, for the next month. And and so I'm like, it's probably easier to miss a play practice early on in the process as opposed to right before showtime. So after, you know, again, I wasn't like trying to push, I just wanted him to think through you've committed to multiple things. What does it look like to have some level of equity there? And so last night when the coach texted to say that Liam had qualified in the top six, we had that conversation and he decided to play. So I like I actually had paid a couple hundred dollars for this thing I was supposed to go to on Monday. I gave that to a friend. Uh so I'm gonna go to this. And actually, this morning, he and I spent a couple hours at the driving range just trying to work on some things for his game. So it's just kind of fun to see, you know, the this continuing with at least 50% of my progeny.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, well, I've given up on any progeny from from me, unless unless unless one of my two grandsons grands? Yeah, you got you and you got influence there, dude. I do, I do. So there's chance, there's chance there. You know, one just last week turned five, and the other one is six, and he'll be seven in October. So I mean, I've I think I was seven when I, you know, started playing golf. So I mean it's terrible, but didn't matter. I had fun. And yeah.

unknown 4:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Well, and what I like about that is you know, it helping him prioritize, right? Or helping him understand that there's complexity, especially in a low commitment or a low consequence stage. Yeah, you know, like I mean, if he it's not like the world's gonna end or World War Three is gonna start if he missed one thing or made a bad choice there. But it helps him learn the process of making a choice. And and to me, that that's like, man, if we can equip our kids to actually make choices that and understand there are consequences to the choices of any kind, I think that's I don't know, that if a parent can do that, they're winning.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Well, and I think too, you you're absolutely right. Like, let's give our our kids, let's not make all of our kids decisions, you know, let's give them enough rope to hang themselves, so to speak, in ways that the consequences aren't significant. But I think historically speaking, like last year, if he had qualified, you know, he just would have been like, well, I'm one of the leads in the play. So like the the theater always wins. And I'm like, I understand that. That makes sense. There's like 25 kids on this golf team, right? So there's plenty of kids that can step in and play. It's not really a big deal either way. But life is full of choices and trade-offs. And, you know, I mean, you and I know this, we have opportunities all the time that we have to say yes or no to. And it's like, I would love to do everything, but there's like there's just no way. Like there, you know, there's not enough hours in the day. So what a what an important skill. And I and I think, and this kind of probably leads into some of the aspects of the conversation we're gonna have today. But one thing that's fun is even when he was a little boy, you know, and I'd take him to the driving range with his little kid set of clubs, and he'd just kind of swing away, and occasionally he'd make contact with the ball, you know, he more so than many had decent hand-eye coordination and could hit the ball and it could make it kind of go a decent distance in a semi-correct direction. And last year, his first year on the team, you know, I mean, I wanted him to be better, but like, you know, he was certainly way better than when he was a kid and having gotten some instructions, some things like that. And now, just a year later, as he's kind of growing into his body more and those types of things, and another year of just working and and reps and those kinds of things, he's better, right? And and I just think um, what a beautiful picture of discipleship, what a beautiful picture of the kingdom of God. Like, you know what? For all of us, when we start something, the first number of reps, we're gonna probably be terrible. Even if we have some latent ability, we're just we're just not gonna be good at it. But when we stick with things and we continue on for weeks and months and years and decades, really there is kind of an upward trajectory, and we do get better with more practice.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Well, it's uh our our friend Shane Stacy from Clarity House, he was talking to me one time and and he made the statement. He said, you know, anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

And I yeah, and I think there's some truth in that, right? Of hey, let let's yes, we are not gonna get it perfectly right. I mean, if you go back and listen to the first 10, 15, maybe 20 episodes of the podcast, you know, we we were figuring it out and we were making this stuff up as we go. And you know what? If you listen, you know, we're at episode just over 200, you listen at to episode 400 in a couple years, it's gonna hopefully be better than this episode. But but that doesn't mean we wait until you know two years from now or three years from now to start because you you don't get better by waiting, you get better by doing, learning, and you continue moving. And so there's definitely a lesson in there.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because it the reps are super important, right? Continuing to do it, but also kind of having feedback. Like there was there was a reason we went to the driving range today, and I was giving him some things to think about. And even and and and I wasn't doing it in like a heavy-handed way. I probably, and I felt, I felt the weight of this with everything that came out of my mouth. I'm like, man, if I have like five swing thoughts in my head when I stand over the golf ball, I'm probably gonna hit a bad shot, right? So I'm I'm giving him, I know I'm giving him too much information, but like I'm telling him, hey, buddy, like I don't want all these things to be in your head, but like here are some things that need to at least be on your list. And then even when we left the golf course, I'm like, hey, what are one or two things that were helpful from that that you're like, oh, I need to think of this. I hit some good shots when I was focused on this. And he gave me a couple of things. And so I know, like, you know, yeah, just doing it, especially if you have bad habits or you've been doing it poorly, you know, may ingrain some things that aren't helpful, but but actually doing the work and uh, you know, getting some feedback and and reflecting on how I can improve this. We do this all the time. Like we're talking about elements that we've tried or elements that we'd like to try or things we'd like to do just to be more clear, more thoughtful, and more effective, you know, in in this endeavor. And it's true with everything in life.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And as pastors, you know, we need to one be willing for the feedback loop, which is some sometimes very hard, right? To get feedback on whether it's your leadership style or or your preaching or teaching or you know, whatever it is. Sometimes that can be a difficult thing to hear, but man, it can make all the difference if you if you're willing to listen. And you know, and and obviously not everything that everybody says is right. You know, I mean I've I've had people tell me things, and I'm like, you have no clue what you're talking about, but I'll listen and smile and politely ignore everything you say.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Oh, that's so good. I and you know, I remember a friend of mine, he graduated from the same college I went to uh a number of years before me, and he and I were youth pastors in the same area for years, and we played golf together, and I don't think he's still in ministry, and I think what I'm about to say, you know, may have some some reason. He's also had a lot of health concerns and things like that. But uh I still remember talking to him. We were both, I was probably in my mid-20s, he was probably in his late 20s, and he said to me, Oh man, he goes, like I, when I was in college, I just hated reading, reading like books, anything. He said, When I graduated from college, it was the happiest day of my life because I knew I would never ever again have to or actually read a book. And I just remember, you know, and I I mean I to this day I love this guy, you know, but like it's something gripped my heart. Like you, it's like saying you're you're you're gonna be a teacher, you're gonna teach kids, but you're never gonna like expose yourself to new thoughts, new techniques, new information, continuing education, like training, all those kinds of things. It's like, you know, man, if we aren't continuing to read and learn and grow ourselves, man, we are just gonna run out of stuff to pour into the people who are under our care.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah. Which I think brings us to the topic we were gonna kind of talk about today, the idea of new things and and so a couple weeks ago, I I preached at the little church that I attend here in in in Delaware, and you know, you were on study break or not, you're on vacation for the whole month of July. Yeah, let's call it what it is. And yeah, and it's nothing wrong with that. Um if anything, I'm jealous. But uh and and so you you you just showed up on that Sunday morning without telling me you were coming, and which was, I mean, it was a pleasant surprise because I actually do like seeing you.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

You did inadvertently invite me. You did say you were pr a couple weeks early, or you said you were preaching, and and you just I think in passing said, you can go if you want to.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

And I made a mental note and I didn't I also didn't like, you know, you only get four Sundays off in that time frame, and you know, I don't want you to waste one, you know, driving all the way down the bell. But so you showed up and and obviously the church that I attend and that uh you know I I was preaching that day, and I'm not a regular preacher. I'm not on staff, I don't have any positions there. Uh we just attend uh when when I'm in town, and um it's very different from the church you pastor. I mean, like stylistically, probably some theological things that you know are are a little different, but probably uh that's okay, yeah, there are some, but that doesn't mean you and I differ. That just means the church I attend, you know, has has some things uh in their in their background that we don't. But either way, the point is it's different. And there's I just thought today it might be fun to just talk through some of the the stylistic and even approaches, uh the differences and what's important, what's not. What do we learn from these? Because I think a lot of the pastor, if I know when I was a you know, planted to church in church for 33 years, I rarely attended a church that I wasn't on staff at. I mean, if I was on vacation, quite honestly, I didn't want to go to church. Like I wanted a Sunday to go play golf or sit at the beach, or you know, and they kind of felt this guilty pleasure of a Sunday not being at church. And so it's not like I visited a whole bunch of churches. And so now that I'm not, and I am visiting, I'm I think I'm growing as as a leader and a pastor because I'm seeing all these different things, but I'm noticing a ton of nuances and and differences that I think a lot of the pastors and maybe even the listeners of of this podcast, they just don't get to experience that. And so I thought it'd be fun just to to walk through some of that. And maybe first of all, I'll just ask you like obviously the the church you lead, I would say is very contemporary. I mean, from the the setup of the building to the style of ministry to the style of worship to the preaching, you know, the way you preach, the way it's very contemporary. I mean, I've preached there multiple times. Like I and it's and and it is, I would say right off the bat, you know, New Hope is a place. I walk in, you can sense the love of Jesus in that place. You know, I don't care what the style is, the it's clear the Holy Spirit's moving, those people love Jesus, and that's wonderful. But then you walk in, you know, to where to the church, it's a 150-year-old building. You know, there are pews, slanted floor, there's an organ with the pipes, there's you know, there's no lighting other than the lights are either on or off. And then there's stained glass windows, there's no hazer at all, except for the candles that sometimes smoke a little, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

And have the little like little wick that you kind of snuff out, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

They had that. So I'm just you know, so you walk in, what what are some some of the thoughts that went to your head as you as you walked in?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, well, and like you say, I mean, obviously just complete opposite ends of the spectrum, just in terms of stylistic kind of ministry. But I loved actually what uh Reverend Ruth Perry said, you know, one of our recent guests, when she just like was talking about like the idea of like she said listening, but you know, when you're just open, you know, when you have a sense of openness to what God may or may not be doing in another place or another person, and just because it doesn't look like you think that it should look like doesn't mean that God, you know, is not up to something there. And I think so many times for all of us, we we can can have this tendency to like view other things through that lens of, well, I figured this out, you know, when we added, you know, four of those $8,000 motion lights in the hazer, you know, our attendance went up by you know 23% the next year. And so obviously that's something that God wants to use everywhere, right? And so you then you walk in somewhere else and they're still using the highest piece of tech they have is the candle lighter slash put or outer contraption that you know has been around for a hundred years and you're like, ugh, well, obviously, you know, we we just sometimes walk around with much too of much of a critical eye instead of just an openness. And so kind of with that in mind, even though it was like drastically different, and I knew that because you told me a little bit about it. Uh, but one of the things that you had mentioned, like I sensed right away. So, you know, I parked in the little parking lot that I think is a community parking lot that the church uses on Sunday or whatever, or maybe it's the church's parking lot that they let the community use. That's there we yeah. So I parked there, I walked in. As soon as I got to the door, somebody else was kind of going at the same time and they smiled and we're we're warm and friendly. I mean, for us, you know, we have to have, I don't know, 20, 30 greeters on a weekend for both of our gatherings and all of our doors and our entrances to the auditorium and whatever. You know, I'm pretty sure like maybe somebody is assigned that job, but it kind of is like, hey, there's just there's few enough of us, so we're just gonna all be greeters, and it kind of and that's how it felt. Like, like I walked in, people noticed me, they smiled, uh, they came up and talked to me. They were just sort of naturally friendly. Um your wife Kristen was one of the first people I saw, so that was kind of cool. And she kind of, you know, pointed a few things out and told me where you were. So I, you know, like you, you have said, like the place felt like uh the love of Jesus and the people there uh smelled like Jesus, you know what I mean? Like you could tell that they just they loved each other and they loved God. And the fact that maybe we would not align on everything uh theologically speaking, you know, did not at all change that. And if I had wanted to focus on those things, maybe I would have missed how Christ-like these these people in this place really was.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that that's uh and and I think there's, you know, like you said, you guys need all these greeters because you have multiple doors and multiple services, and you know, and yet I know because I've walked into your church, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of times uh over the years, your your people are all greeters in a way. Like you you there I've been to churches where if you're not a greeter, you don't greet anyone at all. Like we we got a team that does that, and and so that's you know, that that's that is a culture, right, that you that you build. And and I know a lot of churches that are friendly, but they're not necessarily relational. You know, they they can they they're caricatures, I know, to the extreme. But yeah, that that's and I do believe that's a thing that you have to cultivate in in your people. And it doesn't matter if you're a church of 60 or a church of six hundred or six thousand, cultivating that mindset of openness to the to anyone. You know, that that's a that just that takes work and training and constant reminding of that.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and and and even as you're saying that, one of the things that I used to joke about, and and now uh, you know, my wife and I talk a lot about because we have like a 20 just torn 21-year-old who's you know going to a Christian liberal arts university and studying music and ministry and all those kinds of things. And it's amazing how many times he'll come home and he'll be like, Hey dad, did you know? And he'll say something that literally he has heard me say a thousand times. And I'm just like, ugh. And and and he he acknowledges that too. And he's in a different place and he's, you know, like in a learning environment and he's hungry and he's growing, and you know, that's different than I made that point, you know, this time and this time and this time and this time in a sermon that he was sitting in the room during, you know. But my my joke was always, you know, like back when I was a youth pastor, this was true. You know, like there would be an idea, a concept that I would be trying to just get in the minds and hearts of the kids in my ministry. And it just seemed like they weren't getting it. And we go to some lock-in and some chucklehead, you know, who's speaking at the lock-in would get up and say what I'd been saying for months or years, and and not even as well. And they'd all be like, whoa, like, yes, and they would get it, and they would be like, we've got to start doing this. And I could either celebrate that, you know, hey, like I got to plant andor water and and you know, this person got to sort of reap the harvest a little bit, but it's really God who does all of it and just uses us anyway. Like I could go that way, or I could kind of get like bitter and cynical, and it's like, you know, that person doesn't deserve this credit, and they didn't even do it very, you know, and it's like, man, like I wanna, I do, I really, really, really do. Like, even as I get older, and I I've watched lots of people, the older they get, the more they get kind of cynical and critical, and they know they're right and they know everybody else is wrong. And honestly, that type of environment, that type of soil of a person's life, of a person's heart, of a person's mind, I don't see a lot of good kingdom things growing in in those soils, but people who tend to be open and be like, God, if you're here, help me to help me to see you here. And and you know, like I I see God utilizing people in places like that just a lot more. And uh, and that's just the kind of person I always want to be. If if I'm gonna mess it up one way or the other, I want to mess it up that direction.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, yeah. I've always said if I'm gonna gonna err, I'm gonna err on the side of grace, right? And that's well, let me let me ask you this or pose this question. The historically the Protestant church shifted the the focus of the worship gathering, starting with Lou. But I mean, you know, over the last 500 years it's developed, and especially when you get into the American church, and then even in the tighter stream of evangelical church, the the climax of the service, right? The the high point of the service for Catholics was always and still is the the Eucharist, the literally the presence of Jesus in their midst. That was the you know, that's when you knew this this was really a service, right? Because Jesus is here. Protestants basically shifted that to, we could say the word of God, but really what we mean is the preaching of the word, right? Because I mean the word doesn't just sit there, right? I mean, you gotta someone has to speak it. And so the preaching has really become the climax of an evangelical, you know, type service today. But you know, the the church where where I've been going some and and where I preached there a couple weeks ago, you know, I I had 12 to 14 minutes for the sermon. You know, I mean it it was not, you know, usually when you and I preach anywhere, it's 30 minutes is like the minimum. You know, you gotta start.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah, 12 to 14 minutes is called the intro.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Exactly. Exactly. And and so, yeah, you know, it's but that's not the point of the service. Like it's part of it. It's not that it's unimportant, but there are other aspects. And I don't know, what do you think? Like, what do we learn as especially, you know, a lot of our listeners would be more on that towards the evangelical side, not all of them, uh, and that's fine, but where the service itself is about getting to the preaching of the word. What I don't know, how did that affect you as you're sitting through the service, and there's a ton of liturgy, a ton of, you know, all the prayers, there was only two what I would call extemporaneous prayers. And one was uh as we wrapped up the prayers of the people, and the the guy who was happened to be leading that day prayed. And then when I finished my message, I prayed. You know, like everything else, every other prayer, every other was recited, or you know, the congregation did as a whole. Well, I don't know, what was your first thoughts or impact, or how did you feel in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

So one of the things that I have always been a per just this is a personal thing. This is not like a something I push on others, but it is something that we practice at my church. I never ever ever like to publish the order of worship because I know what it's like to go to a graduation ceremony or go to a funeral or whatever where that's published. And we all do this, right? Like, or or even a play, like we, oh, this is next and this is next, and we're all it's just it becomes this mental following to the end, like, oh, only three more things and then we get to be done. And so I want people to lean into an experience as opposed to check boxes off until we kind of you know get get to be done and go on and do what we want. What but but as part of that, so you would think then maybe something that's a little bit more experiential and contemporary might create a better experience. But here's the other interesting thing that I think is a big part of that. You know, people always say, you know, don't give people too much. Like if if if anything, keep them like like make them. I wish that was longer. I wish I got more of that, right? And man, it was crazy how quick all of the elements felt. Like it did not, even the open time where people could come up and give their praises and prayer requests, it just happened very, very quickly. So, I mean, you guys probably did two to three times more elements, you know, than than we would do maybe on a typical Sunday, but you did it in in way less time. And so, so I thought that was really nice. Like it didn't feel like anything dragged on. And if anything, and some of those elements, I'd be like, like that was nice. I I could have gone for more of that, you know. And I and I think that I mean, there's something for you know, you and I about a week ago hung up with a couple of pastor buddies of yours, and and both of them kind of mocked you for be being in a place where you preached like a sub-15-minute sermon, like somehow that was like you'd almost maybe lost your salvation because you, you know, no preacher worth the salt, you know, couldn't and shouldn't preach that short. But yeah, no, I just I I I really, really thought that that was that was kind of a an interesting, unexpected, like, man, like I think in most environments we'd give people too much, and then if they complained about it, like you know, kind of chastise them as not being godly enough. But no, I just I felt like man, I could I could have gone for more of these things. And so that was kind of a an unexpected thing. But more to your point, I I just feel like you know, there's lots of ways to do it. I think, yes, through through communion, I think through preaching, but like, man, everything ought to, in my estimation, point and push people toward Jesus. And I and and so I maybe that's another way to as opposed to, and I, you know, I've been I I'm a preacher and I was influenced a lot by Spurgeon, and one of my favorite Spurgeon quotes with was this there's no greater worship of God than the hearing of a sermon. You know, so I like to bust that quote out every now and then. And uh, but man, yeah, there's there's plenty of sermons that are just like people blowing their own thoughts and hot air into the into the sky, not pointing people to Jesus. And I think that, you know, there's lots of ways to point people to Jesus and everything ought to.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Yeah, yeah, there's something about and and you know, I because I do travel around a lot, I sit through a ton of different styles of service. I mean, I was a few months ago, I on a Saturday night went to a uh a Russian Orthodox prayer service the very next morning. I I was at uh a very large African-American church in in North Carolina. So, like, you know, less than 12 hours difference, I went from two extremes from a stylistic, you know, perspective, but they were both beautiful in their own way, right? And so, but uh there is something about the the recitation of things over and over within the context of a community that I've I find very reassuring, uh very helpful. It's funny. So that Sunday I preached, and later that week a couple in the church had invited Kristen and and me over to dinner. Just they just wanted to come hang out, whatever. And so we went over, and the the one person was telling us about a very dark time in her life. Her husband died of suicide five years ago or so. And I mean, talk it was just really, really hard time. And she was attending and started to attend an episcopal church that was very liturgical, very, you know, and she said, I really because she had grown up in a more, you know, evangelical type setting, right? Where the service was way more uh lively or whatever, but she said I was afraid I'd be bored. But she said, the more I recited the creed and recited the Lord's Prayer, she said, I was at a point in my life where I couldn't pray. So to be able to, with the community of people around me, recite out loud the Lord's Prayer. Often there were weeks that was the only prayer that I even said.

unknown 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Because I just couldn't, you know, and so there's something about that that I think it it grounds our faith in some things that it's okay that we say it every week, and it's okay that we all say it together, and it's not, you know, I think there's a foundation there that that really helps. And and it kind of segues into the next concept I wanted to talk about is well, you know, at and I used to lead a church like yours, you know, and and our definition of participation was generally showing up and singing and then being nice to people. Right? Like and and maybe serving somewhere, but but really we we we gauged the effectiveness of the service by this is a little simplistic by how loud people sang, so to speak, right? I mean, like were they into it was often a phrase that I would hear. Yeah. You know, w where where I go, like it's it's three hymns, they aren't sung together, so there's no like flow, right? We we sing a hymn to prepare us for the next thing, and then you know, like it's not it's just not a worship set like you know I'm used to. Um and participation is just measured differently. What what are your thoughts on gauging the participation of the congregants in the worship gathering? What what does that look like? And and I don't know, what do you think honors God best?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Well, you know, I there's just like everything, right? There's tensions everywhere with all of this. So one of the one of the things we would think, because we have an environment where we can control all the lights and everything, right? There's no natural light streaming in uh to our auditorium. We do like that people can kind of come in, sneak in and hide where, you know, and and in a you know, in our culture, just in general, if someone's a first-time guest to church, you know, walking into a brightly lit thing where everybody notices you, that that can be a very, you know, big hurdle to overcome. So, you know, we try to minimize that hurdle a little bit and make it easier for people with some of those things. It's really not a, you know, we're into the darkness or anything of those, those kinds of things. So, you know, and I think I think that's okay. I think it's okay to do things like that intentionally for those reasons. Where, you know, like when I walked into your space, like virtually everybody noticed me. Many people welcomed me, which for me in my personality, that was fine. I could see for some people, it's like like I feel like fresh meat, and everyone's like, oh, you're new, like ah, right? Uh so there's all all all of like, you know, just those different kinds of things. And I I I kind of feel like the thing that that matters the most is just that we are seeking to honor God. Like that's the why behind the what we are doing. Because, you know, and we know this, like things, things change all the time. And I remember, you know, like we were just talking, even in college, you know, we did a pastoral ministries class, and the guy who was teaching it was like, you should always write out your pastoral prayer. And I remember this kid who sat right next to me, his name was Robin Briggio, and he was like, No, if if you're not just saying it, being led by the spirit, it's lesser, you know, and I'm like, well, yeah, except for the fact that when you pray and when I pray and when everybody prays, we tend to say the same things that we always say because that's what's in our mind and heart. And and so if we write it out, we're probably gonna be a little bit more intentional, we're probably gonna be a little bit more focused, we're probably gonna be a little bit more thorough, right? We might not be quite as impressive, but that's where even our our friend and former co-host Courtney really helped us because she, you know, her orientation was way more orthodox. And I I, if I'm being honest, probably for like a lot of my adult life, I have viewed just some of those repetitive things as just a little bit lesser. Um, but she really helped me to see how just some of that consistent foundation we do these things and we say these things together, and they give us kind of this foundation, even in moments like like you gave that beautiful illustration, right? Where I don't have the words or the energy to come up with something on my own, but we as the community of faith have this shared foundation of of the church and of our corporate worship. Man, like just when you start to see and and understand how powerful those things can become for people, you know, like again, that that's not me saying that being completely led by the spirit and just doing whatever versus like having you know liturgy and what like I just why why are you doing it? What's the what is the intention behind it? And if if we're if we intend to and we are actually helping people know and follow Jesus, like honestly, like I don't think God gives a rip about any of the stuff that we tend to we tend to get all bent out of shape on.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Well, and I think part of it too is it's around this, again, it's a culture of invitation where people are invited to participate as a community in worshiping God. And the question isn't so like you said, it's not the how, you know, the what are we doing. It's they're invited and then given space to do it. And there are some places where that space is really emphasized in the singing and the emotional engaging, right, uh, of that worship experience. Then there are other places where it's more I participate by actually reciting or you know, reading the creed or the statements or the you know, the call to worship and the these things. I I participate really in just by speaking out loud, right, in the midst of this, the response to whatever's being said. And and either way, the idea is it's an invitation to participate in the service, in the gathering. I I do think there's there's a sense in which the the church growth movement and and the iteration after evolution after evolution of that into some of the things that are done now, it's become a show in a lot of places where your job as a congregant is to basically be quiet so the professionals can take care of this. And and so then it becomes a view.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Do you the studio audience applaud when you're supposed to applaud? Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah. And and and I think that that dynamic is real. I've been in churches where it's like that, you know, and and and you feel like I think I was there. I I I was there, but I don't know if I participated other than I watched it. And and that that's I feel like that whenever I watch a service online, you know, like people, oh, watch the if you didn't make it, that's okay. Watch. I feel like I'm just I'm watching someone else do something. I'm not participating in it. And I'm not saying that's everyone's experience, that's just my experience.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Well, and I remember a buddy of mine who's a great pastor, his he and his wife kind of grew up at this one church, big church in kind of the greater Grand Rapids area. And his wife was on the worship team. And she would tell stories of like when they were doing worship team practice, it was like, okay, when this word is said, you take one step forward and raise your right hand. Like it was that level of like, I'm gonna tell you what to do, slash production, where and and and she really struggled with that because she's like, I don't want to do it just because it will look a certain way or create a certain emotion, if it's not like I'm happy to do that if that's what's authentically taking place in my heart and mind. Now, again, I guess there's the other part too, where it's like, well, if I'm a I'm a wreck, like I'm still up here help leading others. So, you know, like there's a balance there too. But like here's the dirty secret that nobody wants to talk about. You know, in terms of participation, if more people are showing up, so your attendance numbers are going up and up and up, and people are contributing financially, so you can, you know, do things and buy things and pay for things, you know, virtually everybody, the the pastors, the leaders, the denomination, the community, everybody would go, oh man, that's a really successful, effective church because, you know, the those observable metrics. Now, it doesn't even matter how many people are coming and walking right out the back door. It doesn't matter if people's lives aren't really being changed. It doesn't matter if marriages aren't being saved. It doesn't even matter if people are like truly living for and following Jesus in greater ways, if the attendance and the giving and those types of things are increasing and people like, whoa, you know, like that is effective. Where I would say, like, regardless of whether it's a more liturgical kind of approach or whether it's a more you know contemporary approach, like what I'm interested in is what do lives look like, you know, a week, a month, a year, a decade after participating, not in that weekly experience. That's a part of it, sure, but in that community of faith. Because yeah, we're gonna learn some things. Like I always say that, you know, like the weekend is more proclamation. We're gonna, we're gonna like declare the truth, but it's in it's as we serve and it's as we engage in small groups and sort of wrestle with those truths and have conversations about what does living this look like and you know, how have some of us done it successfully and how have we struggled and what are some steps we can take. You know, doing those types of things over time really are the things that help us become not just participating in a you know 60 or 90 minute experience once a week, but like living the life in community with others, I think is really the the power.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I I that's and that invitational culture, not of inviting friends, but inviting people to participate in the worshiping of our God in a gathered event, but then also in a scattered event, right? When when when when you leave the place, you continue worshiping in your participation of the spirit in the your day-to-day life, you know, as we say, where you live work and play.

unknown 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

What does that look like? And yeah, I I was meeting with the church recently, church leadership team, and multiple times I heard them say, you know, that we we've our the preaching is great, we just can't get our people to bring people to it. And you know, and I I was like, well, let's let's rethink that a little bit. You know, like what if the objective is not to get them into here preaching? What if the objective is to send them out with the gospel? How would that change the way you do things? And to me, that's what participation really, you know, begins to look like. And and and go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

No, I was just gonna say, like, I kind of want to, since I did it here just two weeks ago, and and I had like a real easy open door and a great reason just because one of my you know best buddies was like preaching at a church an hour and five minutes away from me. So like not a big deal. But I really do think like for everybody listening in, you know, whether you're like a leader at a church, a volunteer at a church, whether you're a pastor at a church, you know, the next time you're on vacation, the next time you're out of town and traveling, whatever, you know, pop in to a church that is not yours. And I would even encourage you, like go to a church that's doing things differently. Like it's okay to go to a church that's like yours. That's fine. But like go to a church, you know, occasionally that's like completely different, where you could probably make a list of 10 things easy where you're like, I don't like this, I would never do that. I even disagree with this, like, but don't do that. Like, look for two or three things that you could learn and you'd like, man, I would love my church to look, feel, and smell like that. And so, what are some things I could do that we could do in in my setting to help, you know, create that type of environment? I just think, man, we would all be better if we kind of learned and experienced those things together.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah, I love that. Well, uh, we appreciate you letting us have a conversation around this idea, and we hope you engage in exactly what Rob just said. I think that's a great challenge, and we'd love to hear stories. Uh, what was it like? Where'd you visit? How was it different? How was it the same? What stuck out? We I love hearing those stories. Uh, so give us a shout. You you can reach out to us uh through through our website, through the show notes. There's there's links to reach out, you know, Jason or Rob at churchtalkproject.com. Uh, we'd love to hear from you and uh take a minute and share this and uh subscribe to the podcast. That helps make sure more and more people hear about it. I know the next few weeks our plan is to discuss some things around a church is successful when dot dot dot. And so we're gonna engage uh around some some things that I've I've I've read and Rob knows, and we we're working together, and it's gonna be a lot of fun. So I hope you'll see.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

When they can afford expensive hazers. That's when they're successful.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Or is it a successor that makes you successful? See, like that's I know it's really hard. Yeah, I guess you'll just have to come back next week and find out. Oh, well, you have an amazing week. Thank you for listening. We look forward to talking to you soon. Have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Thanks for joining us today at the Church Talk Podcast. We hope the conversation encouraged and challenged you. We would love to hear from you. Email your questions or comments to Jason at Church Talkproject.com. The Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason is brought to you by the Church Talk Project. We work to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and church leaders around the world. Thanks for listening.