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The Heart & Science of Leadership
The Heart & Science of Leadership" podcast, co-hosted by Dr. Paulie and A.J. Rinaldi, combines their diverse backgrounds in leadership to offer a comprehensive view on what it takes to lead effectively, no matter your position—be it executive, teacher, manager, principal, supervisor, or coach. Together, they explore the balance between the human side of leadership and evidence-based practices, providing listeners with practical tools, real-life stories, and actionable strategies. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey, this podcast delivers valuable insights that blend heart and science for impactful leadership in any setting.
The Heart & Science of Leadership
Clear and Compelling: Leading with Vision, Voice, and Authenticity with Salvatore J. Manzi
In this episode, we sit down with communication strategist and leadership coach Salvatore J. Manzi, author of The Clear and Compelling Playbook. With over two decades of experience helping individuals and organizations elevate their presence and clarity, Salvatore shares powerful insights on how to lead with purpose, speak with intention, and create meaningful change—whether you’re in the boardroom, on stage, or navigating day-to-day conversations.
We explore what it really means to align your message with your mission, and how to bring your most authentic self to every interaction. From coaching top executives to guiding TEDx speakers, Salvatore brings a wealth of practical tools and behavioral insight to help leaders at every level communicate more effectively and connect more deeply.
Whether you're a seasoned leader or an emerging one, this conversation will challenge your assumptions, sharpen your skills, and remind you that real leadership is a daily practice—not a position.
🔗 Learn more and grab the book: clearandcompellingplaybook.com
🔗 Connect with Salvatore on LinkedIn: Salvatore J. Manzi | LinkedIn
🧠 Leadership is behavior. Let’s unlock it—and unleash potential. And remember, it's about impact, not title or intent!
Pick up a copy of the #1 bestseller: Adaptive Intelligence: The Evolution of Emotional Intelligence Through the Proven Power of Behavior Science
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
Welcome to the Heart and Science of Leadership, where evidence meets empathy. Co-hosted by Dr Paul Gavone, a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author, and AJ Rinaldi, a John Maxwell Team certified leadership coach, this podcast blends the human side of leadership with evidence-based practices, demonstrating that leadership isn't about title or intent. It's about impact. And now here are your hosts, pauly and AJ.
Speaker 2:Okay, welcome back to the Heart and Science of Leadership podcast. I'm your host, dr Pauly, and we're here with AJ. Aj, how you doing, brother, it's good to see you again.
Speaker 3:Oh man, I'm doing great. Paulyulie, I'm doing great, and we have a great show planned for our listeners. Today we have a guest, salvatore manzi. He's a leadership communications coach with over 20 years of experience helping executives, entrepreneurs and leaders, and he helps them amplify their influence and impact. We all know it's about impact, right? Paulie Salvatore has coached leaders globally, including leaders presenting at the United Nations, and Sal makes an emphasis on principles and techniques that empower leaders to connect authentically and navigate high-stake conversations with confidence through effective communication. Sal, welcome to the show man. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:It's great to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, glad to have you, man, and I'm always interested in our listeners are going to want to be interested. How did you get into the field of leadership? Like, I got in the field because I had to deal with so many crummy leaders. I'm like, oh, what is going on here? Is this? This can't be the way things are supposed to be and I end up going back to school and just studying leadership a lot. I'm like I knew it wasn't supposed to be this way. And you know, I found that I don't know how you feel. I found that there's more bad leadership than there is good leadership. But I don't think it's bad people. I think people just misunderstand, they're not educated appropriately or they're getting theory but they're not getting good coaching in it, you know. So how'd you stumble into it?
Speaker 4:I agree with you. There's a we're. We're following the leaders that we have, and some of us haven't had great leaders to follow. My father was an entrepreneur and so I followed his lead, like watching the way he made decisions and carved a path for himself and business.
Speaker 4:And in for myself, though, I think the real pivotal moment came in this exercise, where we were in a small group activity and they said we were standing and whoever's not the leader sit down. And like three or four people sat down and it was just me and one other person, and I was like, no, I feel like I really need to run this, like I'm not willing to, and does that make me a control other person and I was like, no, I feel like I really need to run this, like I'm not willing to, and does that make me a control freak? Or does that make me like like that confident that I want to carve a path head ahead with what we're doing? So that start that kicked off a 10 year process of working with different leadership organizations and studying different things to understand my own values and where I come from and how to move ahead as a leader.
Speaker 2:Well, how did you go from like all right, I, I, I hey, I got things to say as well to you when you talk about the process. Can you unpack that just a little bit? Could you go from zero to like, all right, I'm coaching leaders somewhere, you know, and that's got to be an evolution. What did you learn along the way? A lot of people think leadership is this thing. Wait a second. Maybe it's not that thing. You had to have learned or overcome some things to get the perspective, to have the success that you're having now.
Speaker 4:I think for me personally, it was overcoming the imposter belief that I had to be perfect in order to be loved or valued or provide value. And I my father was a public speaker. He went around conferences. I followed in his footsteps, got up on the stages, but I was performing. I was up there doing what I thought they wanted me, and I didn't understand the need for authenticity to show up and drive my sense of presence. When I got onto those stages and once I once I found that magic. Then people came to me and were like how are you doing that? Like how do you get up on that stage? And I started coaching other people how to overcome that fear of getting up in front of people and speaking and how to organize that download of information that they have into a way that makes sense for their audience to receive it.
Speaker 4:And I've been working ever since along that path.
Speaker 3:Now, sal, you coach leaders around the world and help them to communicate better. That's your expertise, right there. I just so happen to think communication is the most important skill a leader could own. I mean, you show me a leader that can't communicate. I'm going to show you an effective leader. My question is do you believe that, and, if so, can you tell us why?
Speaker 4:Well, the Harvard Business Review recently came out with the number one skill for any leader to have is communication. So you're on point. Without it, if you can't communicate your vision, you're not going to lead anyone anywhere, right? And the challenge is there's a difference between conversations there's the one-on-one and then there's presentations. A lot of us find a lot of ease in the conversation because there's a dynamic back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 4:But when a person decides that hey, I have an idea and I feel so confident about it that I want to share and inspire other people to follow this, they have to go from that interface to presenting and projecting their ideas out there, and so, for me, I love helping. I work primarily with data-driven folks analysts, scientists, engineers, quiet leaders who are having to compress a great amount of data statistics history into something that's going to make sense for the non-data-driven or data analytical minds to help create change. So, yes, communication is the key to effective leadership, and it starts with being able to communicate with ourselves what it is that we want to accomplish and finding ways to organize and present that to other people.
Speaker 3:I feel like whenever you do a talk or a presentation, like oftentimes, I think many of us would prefer, if we've been speaking for a while, to deliver that inspiration over information. I know you just said you work with a lot of data driven folks, a lot of people who are presenting figures or you know, high stakes proposals. Have you found a way to coach people to where you wrap that data, wrap that maybe not as exciting information to where the brain can find it more digestible and they enjoy receiving that information?
Speaker 4:AJ, it's like you just hand me a piece of candy. First of all, inspiration over information. You need to like, make a t-shirt with that on it. That is solid gold, right there.
Speaker 4:I like to tell people dialogue, not download. People want to have an engagement. Right, you have a lot of insights and statistics and it's important to share that, but it needs to be sandwiched with visual, emotional information. That's the way the brain works. So I have what I call the HIP formula for communication. Hip stands for headline insight, picture point. If I want to communicate to you the essence of what I want to say, I need to tell you what the headline is, where we're going with it. Short, pithy, this is we're in soundbite territory. Twitter changed the way we communicate. You need a headline Insights one to three insights, maximum, right and then paint a picture. Tell me what like, give me an analogy, give me a metaphor, something to make it stick, and then make your point Hip. It's like the difference between going to a restaurant and ordering from the waiter, and the waiter brings you the entire buffet all at once right we can't that kind of download.
Speaker 4:We need segment, you need it brought to us in version. So dialogue, not download, or to your gold point right there. Inspiration, not not information, is what's going to move minds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's missing from a lot of presentations, especially when leaders are trying to cast vision for sure.
Speaker 2:So I probably should have asked this question at the very beginning, AJ, Maybe we should make this a standard. I just thought about this. We're talking about leadership, but I'm actually interested, Salvatore how do you define leadership? You know what is, what is the measure of a leader?
Speaker 4:That is a broad, big question that I would love to spend like a couple of days answering and then get back to you like maybe even going to chat GBT and asking you know like let's cheat on this one how do you define leadership? Leadership to me is self-awareness, room awareness and a courage to be authentic with one's vision in that combination. So there's a bit of emotional intelligence that comes from knowing what other people behaviors are going to show up and a self-awareness of like what are my values? What do I stand for? Am I in integrity with who I say I am? And then can I then have the courage to share that with other people and stand on my convictions and my values as I work within that environment to lead people to what I perceive to be a better vision for the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can appreciate that. I have an approach called the Behavioral Alignment Compass, and it starts with knowing your values. And I'm glad that you talked about alignment, because a lot of people are well-intended and this is the catchphrase for our show here. But it's not about in the end. It's not about intention. It's about your impact, right, your intention might be a value of yours, but people tend to be poor observers of their behavior and the impact of their behavior on the environment. So I see leadership as a behavioral influence, right, the ability to influence others, and we're talking about their behavior. That's the only way you know that you've influenced them, right? So that means the measure of the leader can be found in the behavior of the followers.
Speaker 2:A lot of people are trying to measure leadership by results, and the problem with measuring leadership by results is that you can get results from many different ways, and the ways aren't always ethical, they're not always legal. They can be coercive, but people are saying like you did an amazing job because you're producing those results, but then we lift up the hood. You're like wait a second man. This is not okay. At least, it's not aligned with my personal values and I can speak for AJ. It's not aligned with his personal values, because it's not just about how we get results or getting the results, it's about how we get results right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I love what you're saying in that. I would love to hear how does the behavior alignment compass work?
Speaker 2:Well, so it starts with your values, right? So we got to know our values and a lot of people don't know what their values are In organizations. Most organizations have their values, right? They're just writing on the wall, right? They're not manifested in the organization itself, and the manifestation occurs from behaviors. Can I look around as people say, well, respect is one of our values, or collaboration, all right. What behaviors are going to be aligned with those? Because if we value it, we should measure it and we should reinforce it. So it starts there. Then it goes to like well, what shows up for you inside? We were talking about this offline Salvatore, right? And this self-awareness.
Speaker 2:I get angry. Do I get, you know? Do I feel like this organization not going in the right direction, our employees not performing? You know, I feel frustrated. And when I think and feel that way, how do I behave? Like what do I actually do? Do I yell at people? Do I push them instead of collaborate? Uh, you know, do I not? Do I not involve them in things which, if respect is a value, involving people and giving them voice of choice, that's a good way to be valued, and we can tend to do things to win the battle but lose the war. Right, because we are engaging behaviors that produce an immediate outcome, but they're misaligned with our personal values and misaligned with the values of the organization. So we first have to be aware when I think and feel this way, I behave this way, right, and that's misaligned. So the trick is then to know what I should do instead, right. And so, as you mentioned earlier, you, you, you help public speakers. We said this offline.
Speaker 2:I was telling you how I used to have a massive fear of public speaking. I valued, I value empowering people to better help themselves and others. Right through behavior science, I used to fear public speaking. I'd have fear and anxiety show up. I think I'd be embarrassed. People are going to call me out. I don't know this stuff well enough. And if somebody asked me to speak on something, I would say you know what, I'll tell you what. I'll do the research, I'll set up the room right, I'll do anything, I'll put out the flyer, sign people up, anything but speak, and they would say we both feel happy. But over time, right, I started to feel guilty and feel bad because I wasn't engaging in behavior in line with my true values of empowering people, and so I had to engage in other behaviors. I had to learn how to public speak better. I had to learn how to tell stories. I had to do it in small groups and short amounts of times, right, and then I would have.
Speaker 2:The last part of the compass is that we don't just have values, because values are not destinations, right, so I have to have value driven goals and accomplishments. Accomplish would be how many times I spoke, how many people showed up, how many people were looking at me and nodding because, salvatore and AJ, you know how it is, you've got people they're kind of like, leaning in. Their eyes are wide open. You see them thinking, you know. Or how many people were laughing? Or how many people came up to me afterwards and said, hey, that was great, I never thought about this. Or, the most important part, how many people came back and said, hey, you made a difference in my life, right, that was the big reinforce. So that's the behavior, alignment, compass. And I think leaders need to have this stuff because in the end, again, values can't just be writing on the walls. Are we behaving in alignment with them?
Speaker 4:Does that make sense? Salvatore? I love what you just laid down. Yeah, that makes great sense. We need, and especially the idea of, like we have these values written on the wall but there is no measurement for it and it's slipping. I'm noticing it not showing up here or there To your point, though.
Speaker 4:I mean, you brought up some stuff that I kind of want to unpack. One is that fear of public speaking and that need for the validation loop when we're in front of each other. But the key that I heard in there is that there is a space between stimulus and response. You know the quote stimulus is right, that opportunity, or we can take a moment, think about and respond in a way that is aligned with our values and demonstrates true leadership going forward.
Speaker 4:And if anybody's out there has ever been a moment and you've left a meeting saying I wish I would have said, or you left a meeting and somebody didn't take your idea, even though you had all the information there, or you had an experience where you got passed over for a promotion because somebody else was able to express themselves in a way that captured the attention of other, those are the people that I work with. Those are the people that are like okay, enough of this, I need to be heard, I need to get up on the stage, I need to get up in front of people and make my ideas known and I need help to get there. And I provide content frameworks, delivery techniques and what I call presence strategies around how to show up with presence, because how you have defined your values and your experiences and how you view yourself and the room is going to guide how you show up in that. So working in those three platforms is how I help leaders not go away saying, oh, I wish I'd said that.
Speaker 3:I want to stay there for a second because I know that me and Paulie are very much aligned when we talk about values based leadership. And you're a worldwide communications coach. You help leaders expound and expand their message. And it's one thing if, like I got a conference on keynote in St Louis and I could go to St Louis Nobody knows me I could do a great job and get all the pats on the back. Nobody knows me I could do a great job and get all the pats on the back.
Speaker 3:But if I come back to my local organization and I it doesn't matter how good a speaker I am if my pattern of behavior to Polly's point is not reflective of, you know, what I'm saying on stage, the values, the things I'm trying to get woven into the culture when I get on stage. It can't just be a recital, it has to be a reflection of my values. And so you know, communication it's more than just giving out information. Information is given out, communication is getting through to people. So have you been in that situation where you're coaching a leader and you know we would call it, I guess, the rhetorical situation as a speaker right where you just can't overcome that, sal, despite you being a worldwide coach, because the leader has already kind of muddied the waters with the followers that he's trying to lead or she's trying to lead.
Speaker 4:I want to make sure I understand your question. Like what happens when a person's out there and they're able to entertain, they're able to like, own the spotlight, they're able to perform, but behind the scenes it's a mess and people are like hating working with that person. You mean?
Speaker 3:that, absolutely, they're charismatic, they're a gifted speaker, but, um, you know, the the emperor has no clothes, so to speak. We, you know, we, we, we, we know that that person doesn't, may not portray the values that they're trying to get the followers to catch fire and to believe in. Like you know, even though you're a world-class communications coach, I bet you can't overcome that, you know. What do you think about that?
Speaker 4:This is why I don't work with politicians anymore, and because I've worked with a lot of politicians, I'll tell you what. They learn how to do the dance, but it and they look good, but once they get once, the music stops, it is a mess because the values are not aligned. They want to learn how to say it the right way. They don't really care about how the impact are moving forward because and I want to give them some grace they're under a lot of fire. They are big targets and they are deflecting a world of drama that I don't ever want to have the spotlight on me. So I kind of understand there's a need to perform, but there needs to be congruence between the person on the stage and the person working with their team. Otherwise it's going to be wrought with problems.
Speaker 4:Have I worked with those people? Yes, I have, and I don't really want to work with those people as much anymore. My goal is to work with the people who are leading a great team, but they get up on stage and something's not showing up. They're not. They're not able to be that full, authentic self when they get on the stage. They're great in small groups, but then when they get above 10, there's a fight flight freeze taking place and they stand up there and they're not able to communicate with the same ease as the other. Those are the people that I like working with.
Speaker 3:I'm glad you said that. I wanted to hit that hard and expound on what Paulie said, just because a lot of our listeners, they are good leaders and they're good communicators and sometimes our communication skills or gifts will get us into those leadership roles. But only those values that we have will keep us there. And throughout history, some of the most famous I won't say best some of the most famous dictators have been great communicators Right, I heard. I heard Hitler was one was one of them. But we as leaders for our listeners, we have the obligation to not let it just be a recital but a reflection anytime we get up in front of our followers. So thank you for that. I wanted to expound on that. Anytime we get up in front of our followers, so thank you for that.
Speaker 4:I wanted to expound on that. Yeah, yeah, and for me, oftentimes because I'm working with people who have great ideas but don't always have the tools to express them what I oftentimes start with is that sense of presence. For me, presence is where authenticity meets comfort. No-transcript, they're oftentimes outside our comfort zone to start doing those right Because we have been conditioned from our environment, from society, from systemic issues. We have been conditioned on how to behave and we found a comfortable place. We have to get outside of that comfortable place and behave in ways that feel awkward for ourselves but are going to make our listeners feel more connected to our message. And that's where the growth is, that's where I love finding and that's where leadership shows up right.
Speaker 2:I'm actually, if you wouldn't mind, I'm going to come right back to this question because I want to make a point here for our listeners, because I think our listeners would like to hear a couple of techniques that you're talking about. Right, so there's some takeaway from that would be awesome. I think engaging your stakeholders through speaking is critical, right, it's really important. You have to engage your stakeholders. They got to see what's in it for them, right? So I think good speakers can help people to see that, right. Why should I value this? Why is it important to me? And this is what good leaders do they get people, they create a want for people to move in a direction, and I call this I have this something called the four hats of leadership Salvatore, right, and that's the first hat, the leading hat, and that's creating that want. Now to AJ's point. He mentioned that you know there's been a lot of people who have been leaders, right, but the dictators I like to put an emphasis on the dick with that dictators but they weren't actually leaders, right? These were people who were doing a lot of coercion. But the leading hand is really critical and that's what you support people with. But it doesn't stop there we can create a want for people, but now we have to make sure they have the knowledge and skills to move in that direction right. So that's putting on the training hat, and whether you are, if you're, the CEO, you have to make sure that your organization is providing ample training right, building knowledge and skills and fluency and key behaviors. And then the coaching hat, which is about supporting the generalization of those skills, where we shift from instructing or telling to asking, helping people be better observers of the behavior and the impact of it, so helping them behave well enough and long enough that they produce those results To the managing hat, and that's about maintenance of those behaviors and that requires a good system that's built on positive reinforcement, because you get the behaviors going, you get people to be successful and you've got to keep those behaviors going right. But leading sets the stage for this and I think this is really important.
Speaker 2:I think that speaking is a critical skill. In the wrong hands it could be very dangerous, very dangerous to the JJ's point you don't have the values man, you're not. You know you're talking the talk, but you're not walking the walk. Right, very dangerous for that. But in the right hands it is so powerful because it gets everybody on the boat, so you guys can start moving in the right direction. So can you give us a couple of the strategies? As somebody who had massive fear of public speaking way back in the day, what are a couple of key things that our listeners can walk away with?
Speaker 4:Reframe the rush. Research shows that if you simply reframe that initial rush of emotion that you feel, from nervousness to excitement, you can manage it better. Think about it this way when you get on a roller coaster, you can either have your hands up and screaming in joy or you can have your hands up screaming in fear. You're going through the same thing. It's all a matter of your frame of it. The same thing, it's all a matter of your frame of it. So reframe the rush, perceive it as excitement, not fear, and you will manage that emotion a lot better. Second one I would offer and you mentioned this before is emotion precedes cognition. Emotion precedes cognition, meaning this that neuroscience shows that information is received. Reason comes second right. So first we need to be able to feel it before we start to believe it. So start finding ways to express yourself through stories, metaphors, analogies, and you'll be able to better connect with others.
Speaker 4:I like to say metaphors move minds right. If I can express what I'm saying in a metaphor or analogy, it's going to make all of my incredible data that I spent the last two weeks preparing for you. It's going to make it actually land in a way that you can swallow. But to your point, and I want to. I think it kind of goes with your first hat is you than me? It's a principle of you than me. Anytime you open your mouth to talk to somebody else, start by addressing your perspective of their world, their fears, their hopes, their concerns. Name the why. Why is what you have to say relevant? Speak to you, the listener, before you get to your own agenda, and you open up the doorway to better communication, better connection. Right, I'm getting a thumbs up.
Speaker 2:I love that you got two fists up, brother. That was two gloves up from Pauly Gloves.
Speaker 3:Awesome. I like the analogy of the roller coaster that you use. So many of us as aspiring speakers. We never get on the roller coaster in the first place and that could be for a number of reasons.
Speaker 3:I know I know Paul um said like he, he was afraid of public speaking, like I remember uh, I know where that came from. I had a speech impediment as a child. I got a bit of ridicule for a lisp and a stutter a bit. I say I stuttered like porky the pig and and I had a lisp like Sylvester the cat. So if you were patient enough to hear my thoughts, I hope you had a raincoat, in other words. But for a long time that held me back. That held me back from wanting to speak. Do you have any advice? I know you work with so many leaders across the world and I know we're not the only ones with that fear right leaders across the world, and I know we're not the only ones with that fear right. There's a large amount of the population that has that fear. What do you do to help them get on the roller coaster and just give it a try and just the first step to start growing and overcome that mountain of apprehension that so many of us may have in the beginning.
Speaker 4:Well, I want to come back to this. I would offer, first of all, the number one most important thing is know your why. Why do you want to get up on that stage, why do you want to get your message out there? Why do you think what you have to say has value? Until you have that certainty, then getting up there is going to be a trial and error that's going to be very painful, which go through it. But if I could ask you overcoming a stutter, how did you do it?
Speaker 3:What, what, what, what tools did you use and what motivated you? Yeah, I think I think that's a good question. I actually haven't gave a lot of thought to that in the past, but as I reflect now, I think sports helped me do it. A lot of thought to that in the past, but as I reflect now, I think sports helped me do it a lot.
Speaker 3:I think, um, uh, being being, you know, having some talent in athletics, and usually in athletics it's like the, the, the best wrestler, the best linebacker, you're going to get pushed into leadership roles, I think, which gives you an opportunity to speak more to people. And then it's like, oh, I said that at halftime and it seemed to put a shot in the arm or whatnot. You know what I mean. And it's like I think it gave me confidence and it started to plant the seed. And then, of course, you know, moving into young professional roles, you get more opportunities and you just so happen to say, ok, maybe I have a little knack for this, so on and so forth. I think for me that's how it works out.
Speaker 4:I appreciate that, thank you. I've worked with people who have a stutter and what I find is they are far more intentional about their word choice. Their brain has learned to I'm never saying that word because that word's going to cause a stutter, so I've got to use any of these words. So their brain is moving on a different track, finding other words while they're speaking, and I think it's amazing. So I find most people that have overcome a stutter have more intentionality with the words that they're using.
Speaker 2:James Earl Jones was one, and I think Samuel Jackson. But he's got some intentional words, man, go ahead, sabotar. I didn't mean to interrupt.
Speaker 4:I was going to say to your point, though I offer for anybody that's working with me. We need low stakes environments for you to try out new techniques. Try it out, see how people respond and then keep integrating it. You need those little wins along the way. Like it's, it's going to be effective to just get up in front of a thousand people and follow on your face. You're going to learn a lot, Right? But if you're taking that moment when you're ordering coffee at Starbucks to try to say it in a different way, try to have a different presence, use a different, use an embodied voice.
Speaker 4:I would like to have a small cappuccino. I'm going to own the pause. I'm going to own the pause right there with my Starbucks barista, because it's an opportunity for me to practice learning how I communicate in different ways. How do people react to me when I use a different tool? It's a low stake situation, so what, who cares if they give you a face like dude, you need coffee. We're going to get that to you. Calm down, right. Whatever the response is going to be fine because I'm going to have these small wins as I keep developing my own ability to communicate more effectively and show up with more presence.
Speaker 3:That's a good strategy. I think I might have to use it somewhere else than a coffee shop because my wife, her Starbucks order it's longer than many of my speeches and I think I have to have a PhD just to make an order at Starbucks for my wife.
Speaker 4:That is truth.
Speaker 2:Salvatore, what you're saying, just so you know it aligns very well with behavior science. What we know without a shadow of a doubt, with over a hundred years to support, is that all behavior occurs because the outcomes that it produces right. We call that reinforcement, and what you're sharing is creating situations where people can behave well enough and long enough that they produce a valued outcome. And then you shape that over time, you know. So those situations get a little bit longer, a little bit bigger, a little bit more important. Albert Bandura would call it building somebody's self-efficacy, and that is their belief in their ability to accomplish a task and their response efficacy, knowing that if I do this thing, it's going to produce this outcome. You know, whatever outcome that is that they value.
Speaker 2:Coming back to your point, what do you find the biggest struggle is for people? Right, Because you still got to get them. I think it goes back to what AJ was kind of saying earlier, like over that hump of actually doing it, because if you don't behave, you don't produce reinforcement. Right, so we got to get them to actually get on the horse and give it a try. We want to make sure that the horse is as safe as possible. So they come away being successful. How do you get them over that hump to start?
Speaker 4:I love this question and I got to be honest. There is there's no easy answer, because all communication is contextual, right, it depends on who you're talking to, what you're talking about and the environment in which you're talking. So in every context a different thing is going to show up for that person. So what? The number one biggest thing? It's going to really vary from one to another. I'll tell you, one of the biggest impact techniques that people can use is the idea of space, stillness and silence.
Speaker 4:Space, stillness and silence those are defining characteristics of presence. The more space I take up, the more stillness I exhibit, graceful gestures, composure, and the more silence I can hold, the more presence I can exude. Now, that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for a person to be very candid and casual and talking fast and have their hands fast to their face and have their head tilted and show a little bit of curiosity and empathy. Right, it's a continuum between the one extent I call it agency and the other side, which I call relational. There's a continuum of behaviors to exhibit, but I would say the number one tool to begin working with if you want to elevate your communication is to consider where are you exhibiting space, stillness and silence. And what are your knee-jerk responses different contexts, as you try to be intentional, and how are you using those?
Speaker 2:well, as you mentioned you've mentioned this a few times and I know this, know this is part of what got me over the hump was being authentic, right. But in order to be authentic, you really need to know your values, right? So who am I? What do I really want in this world? How do I want to show up for people? So I need to know that, because I used to do things like. I have tattoos.
Speaker 2:I'm a fighter and I would hide that. I felt like I was going to be judged. I would hide that. I felt like I was going to be judged, but when I tried to watch somebody and be that person, it just never worked out for me until I just started talking how I talk and talking about what was important to me, and that's where I felt like I really started to capture the audience. I could see the outcome I was producing and unfortunately, it almost was like I felt so uncomfortable from not being in my own skin that I almost stopped doing it, right.
Speaker 2:So these initial public speaking endeavors are really important to get people in touch with reinforcement. The same way, the first time I have a fighter going to the cage of the ring, I don't want to set them up where they're. On. The pro fighter Like I was, I got my nose broken Right and a lot of people are going to walk in and take a beating and think I don't have what it takes to be successful as a fighter, as a public speaker. So I think that's really important these initial situations, to set yourself up for success, prepare for it.
Speaker 2:You've got to prepare. It all comes back to behavior. If I can do it, if Salvatore can do it, if AJ can do it, you can do it too. It's just what you do and how you do it right. But I'd like to ask this question I'm going to hand it back to AJ Is what is the biggest mistake people make? And maybe I just said what the mistake is, I don't know, but what? What do you find the biggest mistake is that people make when it comes to public speaking?
Speaker 4:I want to answer that question, but I got to double click on what you just said. Right, the, the? It's the biggest mistake is believing I'm going to be perfect when I get up there. It's the biggest mistake is believing I'm going to be perfect when I get up there. Like, embrace the awkwardness, embrace the idea that it's going to be uncomfortable and hopefully you don't get your nose broken, right, but you're going to get up there and there's going to be something that didn't go the way you had planned and that's the human of it. Right, and there there is. I'm just going to be honest.
Speaker 4:There is a bit of fake it till you make it, because you need to get outside of the comfort zone and the way you've been doing things, and that's going to feel fake at first until it creates a new patterning and you're probably going to over-rotate the first time or you're not going to rotate enough Either way. One of the best advice I ever got from a mentor was like you don't know how far you can go until you've gone too far. So until you've done that, until you've stepped on someone's toes saying the wrong thing, or you've shown up with too much confidence or situation, until you've reached that point. You don't know how far you can go. You've got to have it Until you've got that cut. Then you're not trying hard enough, so embrace the discomfort.
Speaker 2:AJ, let me ask a comment on that. I'm going to hand it back over to you, and that is fake it or make it. It's a common phrase that we use, but it aligns perfectly with my behavior, alignment, compass and with what science says. In the end, it doesn't matter what you think or feel, it matters what you do. If you do the right thing in the right way at the right time, you're going to produce the right outcomes and those outcomes are the reinforcement right? So faking it doesn't mean do the wrong thing. It still means do the thing right.
Speaker 2:Nobody can see what's going on inside your head. They can't see your feelings and your fear and your anxiety. They can only see your behavior. So do the right thing Right, Practice, prepare, speak slow, have the space, have the pauses that you're saying, use the metaphors. All these things tell good stories, Right, and you're going to produce those outcomes. And if you just accept that you feel that way, right, and focus on what you need to do eventually, instead of trying to get rid of the feelings, because that's like holding a ball underwater, eventually those feelings are going to go away. In fact, they will be performance enhancing and a lot of athletes capture this right. They got that anxiety but, as you said at the very beginning, it's all the same feelings. It's how you frame it right and I can't wait to get up there and public speak now. At some point I couldn't wait to get in the ring and fight Right when I was confident enough, behaving well enough, so that was powerful.
Speaker 3:So I just want to comment on that, AJ go ahead, brother your work and some of your comments are towards introverts, and so I'm just thinking of like for the introverted leader, for the introverted speaker who needs to speak in order to cast vision and to inspire folks. I would consider myself an introvert. I'm an introvert on every personality assessment. I'm weird though it's like. I love my solitude, I love my self-reflection, but I love people and it. I love delivering and trying to develop people, and so it drives me out of my, my cave of solitude to go find where the people are Right. Um, what would you say to the introverted leader? And do they have a leg up in certain situations? So I just want you to speak to us introverts out there. I'm an introvert masquerading as an extrovert, I guess.
Speaker 4:Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, I self-identify as an introvert as well. I found crowds to be somewhat exhausting but, like you, there are times where, like I need, I crave a little bit of excitement. I need, I need some interactions, connection, I need a genuine connection. Introverts do have a leg up.
Speaker 4:Introverts have spent a lot more time thinking before they speak and that ability gives them the possibility of having more impact when they speak. What I would offer as a tip and I've said this before, you might have heard it is that break the seal early. The problem of sitting in a meeting while you're waiting for your chance to talk, the temperature just keeps going higher and the pressure gets bigger to have a more impactful thing. So break the seal early. Get your voice into that discussion as quickly as possible, Within the first five minutes. Make some kind of contribution to the collective conversation. It'll take the pressure off the time when you do want to speak. It'll take the pressure off the time when you do want to speak and I would say, as an introvert, you have insights into observations of the room that no one else in the room is going to have. So your voice has value.
Speaker 3:Share it and make your voice heard. Wow, that's pretty powerful. That's a great piece of advice for many of our listeners who just feel a bit of trepidation in some of those social situations. So, final thoughts here. I want to open it up for you to give any final thoughts. To ask you you have an opportunity to sit down and have lunch with the greatest leader in the history of the world. Who are you?
Speaker 4:choosing and why so? This is a big question. I get to pick one. I only get one. You get one.
Speaker 4:I want to have like a council or a party with all of my favorite leaders. A leader that stands out for me is Obama. I'm just going to call it out Obama. He is such an effective orator. He owns the pause. He finds ways to have an audience lean in, even when they disagree with him. Right. Disagree with him Right, and I think it's a combination. For me is that he brings heart and authenticity and determination in the perfect balance. That just makes me want to listen to him and follow him wherever he is going.
Speaker 3:So it makes sense for a speaking, a communications coach to choose one of the one of the great or readers. So that makes perfect sense. Pass it to paulie here for any final thoughts yeah, man.
Speaker 2:Um, well, first of all, savador, uh, thanks for coming on, man. I like we, aj and I think could talk shop all day long. Uh, thanks for sharing some like really solid tips with our listeners. Um, it's good to you know for me, for somebody who's I just learned organically I think AJ might've been more formally trained. I've seen him speak man. He's an amazing speaker. I just learned by the outcomes of my behavior and watching literally people like Obama, clinton, et cetera. So there were some great people out there. So thanks for coming on. If people want to reach out to you, if they would like your services, your support, I think a lot of people really admire public speakers and they wish they could do it. They don't think they can, but, as I said earlier, it's just behavior. You engage in the right behavior, you're going to produce the right results. So how can they reach out to you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you for that. If you are interested in elevating your communication, I am available at clearandcompellingplaybookcom. Clearand am available at clear and compelling playbookcom. Clear and compelling playbookcom. I have a book coming out hopefully september that combines all 20 years of communication coaching into like offering that as a tool to the world what's the name of the book? Clear name, but that's it okay strategies for big thinkers with bold ideas.
Speaker 2:All right, excellent man, and anything else you want to leave for our listeners. And, by the way, if you can just send us that information, we'll make sure we post everything in your contact information in the show notes. That would be helpful for people.
Speaker 4:Definitely I will. I will send that to you and I always like to leave with spot it got it Right. I chose more your path, pauly I just got up and kept doing it versus getting the tools originally. If you're able to look up and see somebody do something well, demonstrate leadership in a way that inspires you Because you have the ability to spot it. You have the ability and got it. You just need the courage to go out there and try.
Speaker 2:All right, Well said man. Thanks for coming on. And to our listeners, remember, in the end it's not about intention, it's about impact. Thanks so much, everybody.
