It's More Than Football Now: Hearts Special

Anthony Brown, journalist, author and Jambo, joins Findlay and Laura for an in depth chat about the possibility of the Scottish Premiership crown heading to Gorgie Road.

With two games to go, and two teams left in it, it all comes down to this week.

Hearts take on Falkirk on Wednesday while Celtic travel to Motherwell, before the season-ending finale to end all finales... Celtic v Hearts on Saturday.

Anthony tells us how much impact this season is having on everyone, even outside of Edinburgh, and the usual football circles. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

We're enjoying some of us every minute of this season from afar. But let's talk to someone who's right in the middle of it all right now. Journalist and author Anthony Brown is joining us to talk from a heart's point of view what we're going to be expecting for the final two weeks of the season and what it could mean. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us. You um you must be loving this.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I was loving it up until the weekend. Um certainly it's it's been probably in terms of being a heart supporter as a kid and then working uh covering hats and what have you. It's certainly been the best season I can remember um in terms of league campaigns. I know they had the Cup win in 1998 and the Cup win in 2012, and the special season in 2006 as well. But I think this one feels like the most incredible, just given that they're literally two games potential or one game potentially from winning the title, which I never ever thought in my lifetime I would ever see any club out with Rangers or Celtic win it. And obviously, there's still a lot of work to do. Celtic have just gone favourites, but just the fact that we're even having this conversation with two games to go is pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

You you've been you've been covering hearts for a long, long time. Tell us how different this season's been in terms of like the atmosphere, the mood, the feeling around the place. That that buzz must have been there for the whole what 36 games now.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah, no, it's it's definitely been out there on its own. I think in 1998, which was when I was a bit I was 15, 16 back then, the stadium never seemed as full. It didn't quite seem as big a deal. I know Harts sort of ran Rangers and Celtic fairly close, but never ever felt like they were within touching distance of winning the title. This has just been a different level altogether. The fact of beating Rangers and Celtic several times, I think it's five times I've beaten the the two of them combined, beating Hibs three times, three of them were late winners, and beyond that, there's just been so many brilliant moments, like moments that people remember for years. And it's from my perspective, my son's 14 now, so I'm working at all the games home and away, and I take him and his mate and just drop them off in the away end. And I keep saying to them, look, just try and take this in as much as you can because there might never be another season like this. I know people keep saying all the Tony Bloom stuff, this is just the start, and it may well be, but we don't know that for certain. It could all go back to sort of normality next year. Harts might be just battling with Aberdeen and Hibbs for third place, so it is like the the away ends sold out every game, every single game. It's a scramble for tickets, um, the home games as well. Now there's a real atmosphere around Tynecastle, which hasn't always been the case. Tynecastle's got this reputation of being like a bit of a bear pit, but I think most people who go regularly would say actually it can be a wee bit of a morgue at times in normal circumstances, but certainly in the second half of this season, in particular, it's just gone to another level, and I think that sort of played out in the Rangers game last week. That was in terms of atmosphere just crackling from a good bit before kickoff, the teams coming out. Rangers sort of sucked the life out of it a little bit in terms of getting their dominance in the first half, and it took the sting out of the crowd a little bit, but the second half was just unbelievable. Like, I've never felt Time Castle like that in all my time ago, and since 1990, it really was different level. I think a lot of people have said that that were there, that they've they can't remember a night like that. Um, and there's just like honestly, there's dozens of highlights throughout this season. I think you get these seasons where there's just like last season, for example, was so nondescript by comparison. I think it was a season everybody was just glad to see the back of, and then you've got this season, which is just highlight after highlight after highlight, and it's one of those seasons that if you asked every Hearts fan to pick their five favourite games, I think everybody would come up with different games, nobody would have the same games. There's just been so many different not just the Rangers, Celtic, and Hibbs games. Like one for me that sticks out was Dundee United away in January when they went up 1-3-0. I think there was about 5,000 Hearts fans up there. It was a snowy sort of there'd been snow during the day in Dundee, wind and rain, and it was widely expected to be a really difficult night for Hearts, and they absolutely blitzed Dundee United. And it that was the night the sort of Champions League is awaits for me song sort of started and it's just continued right through from then on. Yeah, I mean it there's just so many bits that I think when you look back, the problem you're gonna have is that if it does end on a downer, that will sort of override everything if it goes. I mean, it if they lose it, it is going to be literally losing it on the last day against Celtic. And I think that'll really tarnish it for a lot of people if that's the way it plays out, which is a real shame because no matter how it ends, it should be remembered as one of Hart's greatest seasons of certainly of the modern era.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Just to kind of dig down into it a little bit, can you as a journalist put your finger on exactly what it is that has meant Hart's are in this position? Is it the fact that the Rangers and Celtic have been by their own standards pretty well, certainly by Celtic standards, quite poor this season and and maybe have dropped off quite a bit that that's coincided with Hartz, you know, having the right manager in place, having that blend of new players coming in, but also established players that have been there for a while. Is it the Tony Bloom influence and the analytics? Is it kind of a combination of all that, or are there specific things that you can point to to be like that's maybe a reason why there has been this standout season for Hartz?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I think all the things you allude to there are certainly valid. Uh, maybe not so much Rangers, because Rangers' points tally is going to be roughly along similar lines to most of the last five to ten years. I don't think Rangers are going to be a million miles off what they usually finish on beyond that season where they won the league in 2021. So, but certainly obviously Celtic have dropped off a little bit. But then you factor in that Harts have taken um eight points or something off Celtic, so that accounts for some of it, the fact that Hartz have got themselves to a level where they can do that. I mean, there's no argument that Celtic are not the same team they were last year or several previous years, but that I mean the team that Celtic are putting out now is now starting to look like a semi-familiar Celtic title-winning team. I know it's not quite at the same level as last year's, but having Johnston back, having Engels playing at the level he's at Maeda seems to be back, they look like they've they're getting a wee bit closer to that kind of level that you expect of a Celtic title-winning team. But I mean at Harts points tally at the moment's 77. That's a record points tally. So for all that Celtic may have dropped away, Harts are there on the basis of their own points tally being the best it's ever been. And I think if they win against Falkirk, I think that'll get them on to 80 points, which I'm not sure any team out of Rangers or Celtic have ever hit. Maybe McInnes's Aberdeen team did it ten years ago. I'd need to double check. But I think um, and that would have been at a time when Rangers weren't in the league, so slightly easier to hit not easy, but you know what I mean? There's it's a little bit more favourable in terms of hitting that points tally. So I mean hearts are certainly there on merit in terms of just winning, winning, winning, and if they do suffer a setback, they generally win the next game. So that they've found that consistency. I mean, they're they're not the most swashbuckling team by any stretch. I think they had a period probably September, October last year, where they played well a bit of verve when Kizaridis was flying and Braga was just a little bit unplayable for a few games. Shankland was on fire, and they just had a real steeliness about them defensively, and they just looked like a real strong unit, whereas now they're probably grinding games a little bit more. Now, since we've gotten into the second half of the season, they're really getting hit hard by injuries at the minute, but they still keep chipping away. And even last night, people say they they they bottled it, they choked whatever. That's still a good point, in my opinion, at Motherwell. It's just unfortunate that on the back of it they've lost two really key players, which is put a real damner on it, and Celtic have then gone and blacked Rangers today, which I think has sucked the life out of a few supporters in terms of their belief that Hart's can get over the line. But though I think all the things you allude to in terms of reasons, certainly Derek McInnes is a huge factor. He's he's played a blinder in terms of just setting the right tone, the way he speaks, the way he's been really calm, actually. I've been surprised how calm he's he's not like lashed out at people the way I maybe thought he might have when the pressure was on and things like that. He's just he's been a really good figurehead, and I think if you asked any heart supporter, they would have certain grumbles about certain team selections and maybe potentially playing with a handbrake on a little bit at times, or that's the perception. But you can't really argue with what he's done over the piece. And when he doesn't quite get it right to start with, he usually fixes it at halftime or whatever and gets a response in the second half, or certainly has in in recent weeks. So yeah, I think, and and obviously you've got the Jamestown aspect of it, which has brought Braga, Kiziridis, they're the two sort of poster boys, I guess, for it. And even beyond that, the likes of Magnuson and Cabore, Harry Milne was the Jamestown boy, Kajota, they've all had little bits of influence in this in terms of having uh coming up the big moments. So, and then you've got your guys at Kingsley, Halcott, Shankland, Devlin, Boningamy who were there before. So it is it's a sort of perfect storm, everything coming together, and as you say, probably capitalising a little bit on Celtic not being quite at their level.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Do you get a sense of like I mean, I I'm seeing it just by talking to people, but outside of Celtic Rangers and Hibs fans, do you really kind of get that sense that everyone else in Scotland and beyond is back in hearts?

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Um, I think people are yeah, I think they probably are, just the the novelty of it. And certainly people's like I was down in Leeds a few weeks ago, and Leeds fans were just wanting to talk about it, like they're asking, is this real? Is it like has it got a chance of happening? It's pretty everybody's talking about everywhere you go. People who aren't even like family members I've got that pay no interest to hearts usually are now following it closely, and it it feels like something beyond football almost. It's almost like ESA last week, they were asking everybody, politicians and what have you, that probably don't really know about it, but they were still wanting to have their say because they know it's a big thing. Um yeah, I mean it does everybody want them hearts to win it? I think the vast majority of people out with those clubs you mentioned, and I actually think a lot of Hibbs fans probably deep down wouldn't mind Hearts winning it, and I understand that probably probably would be quite comfortable with it on the basis that they've probably got mates who are Hearts fans and they wouldn't necessarily begrudge them if they got over the line. But yeah, I think I think you'd be a bit of a it would be a bit I don't know what the word is, but if it if it was Aberdeen up there or if it was Dun United, Motherwell, whatever I'd want them to get over the line. I'm like I think it's what Scottish football needs, somebody to crack this duopoly. I don't think it's healthy for just Rangers and Celtic to continue winning it every year.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

If you got I mean it's it it's it's hard not to uh and and many broadcast outlets have kind of made the comparison. Obviously, Harts did come relatively close, you know, a gener two generations ago in uh in the mid-80s to to winning a league title and it kind of went south on the last day or close to the last day. Is is that playing on the mind of of Hearts fans uh going into it, or or or is that like you're saying there's maybe a bit of a wobble that happened over the course of the results this weekend, but in your opinion, have you kind of felt that there's enough of a consensus among the fans that now we actually will do it, or is that kind of nervousness creeping in the closer you get to the finish line?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Well, from my perspective, I'm just too young to remember 86. I never started going until 1990, so 86 hasn't really affected my mindset. Obviously, I'm aware of it, and my dad was there and things like that, but it really hasn't factored into my thinking, which is probably why I've thought probably from October that Hearts are genuine contenders, and I've never really I didn't necessarily think they were going to win the league, but once they beat Celtic 3-1 and Brendan Rogers last game, I thought Hearts have got a chance here, like depending on how it plays out, depending how Rangers and Celtic respond. I mean, I never saw Rangers as title contenders back in October, I thought they were dead, like done, like in terms of the race. Um, so I thought if Celtic continue to wobble, don't get this next appointment right, Harts could kick on here and do something. But now that it's got close, I've still always thought Harts have got a chance on the basis that they've always had a lead. Between Hearts Rangers and Celtic, I don't think there's much difference. I think if they all played each other three times on neutral venues, they'd probably all come out with similar points, if that makes sense. But I think because hearts have always had that little points buffer, I always favoured them. I always thought if they can just keep that buffer, all three teams will slip up. They're all finding the tension of this title race pretty difficult in terms of keeping that consistency. And I just thought if hearts can just keep chipping away, and I didn't expect them to bottle it, and I don't think they will bottle it as such. If they don't win it, I don't think it'll be anything to do with bottle. But I did think I've always thought they needed to win it before the last day. That's always been in my thought. And when the split fixtures came up, I actually thought it was a good thing that they were going to Celtic Park on the last day because I thought you don't want to go to Celtic first game after the split, potentially lose that game, and it kills your momentum. I thought you're better trying to win it before you actually have to go to Celtic Park, yeah. And that could still play out on Wednesday if Motherwell beat Celtic and Harts beat Falkirk, not beyond the realms of possibility. But I think the way the weekend's results have played out has really started to sap the belief of a lot of supporters, and it now looks a little bit ominous. It looks like Celtic have got a bit of momentum, and when you see Celtic Park the way it was after they beat Rangers, I think there's a lot of Harts fans thinking if they can do that to Rangers, they can probably do that to us next week. And I think there is a bit of a fear developing that if Harts have to go to Celtic Park and only avoid defeat, that it's going to be so hard because there's going to be 900 Harts fans there and 60,000 Celtic fans willing the ball into the net. And I think this is a different Harts team to most previous Harts teams, and but I think Harts fans are just scarred from going to Glasgow so many times and taking beat-ins that it's hard to go there confident that they will win, even though they won on their last visit. They're now missing a lot of players that I mean their midfield's decimated at the moment, they're down to the bare bones in terms of central midfielders. With they should hopefully still have Devlin and Berengemy, but and Blair Spittle. But beyond that, they've not got Magnuson, they've not got McIntyre, Leonard's now out. So they're kind of they're a little bit threadbare in there, and losing Craig Halkett is massive. He's the cornerstone of that defence. Yeah. I think uh Derek McKinnist described him as he's Lauren Shankland in defence, just the leader. So to go to Celtic Park to try and close out a draw for the league title. I just I don't know if Hartz would be capable of doing that with, as I say, the the home support just willing Celtic over the line. I was actually saying, in some ways, I know this sounds ridiculous, it may actually be better for Hartz if they somehow get overtaken on Wednesday. If they're not going to win it on Wednesday, get overtaken on Wednesday, so they have to win on the last day, and they almost go in with a little bit of pressure relief because no one will it won't be like losing it on the last day. They can go there and try and win it on the last day.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Anthony, you're letting this get into your head too much. Come on. You're spiraling here. We can see you unraveling here. Like I've said from the start of the split, I am confident Motherboard taking points off all three of you. So that's I'm going into Wednesday night, and I am absolutely confident that Motherboard is still gonna have a say in this title race yet. So do not spiral just yet.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I think that's what everybody's praying for at the minute from a hearts perspective. That they can I think hearts fans are quite confident that they'll beat Falker because obviously not a Kimmy because Falker are a good side, but yeah, I think the way the Hearts have been at home, and Hearts are in good form at the minute. I know they drew on there's a bit of negativity because they drew on Saturday night, but they've not they've I think they're unbeaten in six, they've won four, drawn two. They're they're picking up results, it's not like they've lost their way big time. Like they had that blip at Kumarnik in March, and they've responded really well to that. So they are still in good form, they're winning all their home games, they're perfectly capable of going out and beating Falkirk, even with the pressure on. And if they beat Falkirk, can Motherwell beat Celtic? 100% they can. If Motherwell turn up and play to their full potential, I mean we saw it in little flashes against Harch. I don't think Mother will were at their brilliant best against Hartsch, but there were still moments where you thought you can see their quality here. And Celtic might start to feel the pressure now that they're right up there and people are expecting Celtic to go and win it. I wouldn't want to have to go and win at Motherwell to win a title or to keep your hopes alive. Like Harts had that last night and they came away with a point which I actually thought was a good result. So I wouldn't like to have to go there to win. So I think that's the the one thing that Harts will be kind of relying on is can Motherwell do them a favour and take away this sort of horrible prospect having to go to Celtic to avoid defeat for a title.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Well, there have been obviously some iconic moments involving Fur Park, Motherwell, and helicopters with fleet titles in it, so you never know, Anthony. The the gods might and the the odds might still be in your favour uh come midweek. I mean, it would be exceptional to see something like that happen to which people. I think we're gonna wrap it up there, but thank you so much for joining us and all the best for midweek. We hope you're celebrating with many pints by this time on uh Wednesday night.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Thank you guys.