What exactly is being codependent? Can you spot the signs?

This episode, featuring Randi Owsley, LMSW, and Jessica Bullwinkle, LMFT, shares empowering insights into breaking free from codependent relationships, mastering the art of setting boundaries, and nurturing self-love after codependency.  Join us as we embrace self-care tips for codependency, celebrate overcoming codependency stories, and empower you with codependency therapy techniques to write your next chapter.

Exploring the depths of codependency can be a life-changing journey toward emotional wellness and genuine self-discovery. As we delve into this critical issue, our focus is not just on unraveling the complexities of codependent relationships but also on empowering you with effective tools and insights that foster inner peace and healthier connections moving forward. From real-life overcoming codependency stories that resonate with courage, to practical codependency therapy techniques, and valuable self-care tips tailored for recovery, each resource is designed to support your path to healing. This dialogue about setting boundaries and cultivating healthy relationships after codependency is a testament to female empowerment in mental health. Together, as a community of strong, supportive women, we can transform our challenges into our greatest triumphs, enhancing our emotional wellness and supporting each other every step of the way.

In the upcoming episodes of our podcast, discover how healthy relationships can flourish post-codependency and how personal growth is not just possible but is a beautiful outcome of facing our challenges head-on. We'll navigate together the path towards mental wellness, highlighting the signs and solutions of codependency, and crafting a map to rebuild self-esteem that has been eroded. 

FAQs
What is codependency?
How can I tell if I’m codependent?
What causes codependency?
Can codependency be a part of platonic relationships?
How does codependency affect mental health?
Is codependency the same as caring too much?
Can men be codependent, too?
How do I start to heal from codependency?
Can a codependent relationship become healthy?
Where can I find support?

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Transcript

Randi: 0:14

Welcome back to the women's mental health podcast. I'm randy. I'm And I'm Jess. And we are two licensed psychotherapists, and this is a safe space where we talk about mental health, well being, and strategies for coping with life's challenges. And how all of this is normal, and you are not alone. Today we're diving into a topic that many of us have encountered in our relationships. Codependency. We're going to break down what being codependent is and how to create and have healthy boundaries to not be in this type of relationship. Find us and more resources on womensmentalhealthpodcast. com Have you ever had these thoughts? What exactly is being codependent? How can I tell if I am codependent? What causes codependency? Can you be codependent and still be part of a platonic relationship? Can you be codependent on a friend how does being codependent affect mental health? Is codependency the same as caring too much? Can men also be codependent? How do I start to heal from being codependent? Can a codependent relationship become healthy? And where can I find support about codependency?

Jess: 1:23

So let's start by defining what exactly is codependency. It is part of the relational dynamic where one person excessively, not just relies, but excessively relies on another for emotional validation or self worth or even I guess who they are, their identity.

Randi: 1:44

Yeah, in a codependent relationship, one person often becomes the caretaker or the enabler while the other person's needs and emotions dominate the relationship. And this type of imbalance can lead to unhealthy patterns in your relationship, and oftentimes where one person is sacrificing their own needs and well being to support the other. the other person. Mm

Jess: 2:07

hmm. So it's at a fault to them. And if you guys want to talk about enabling, listen to our last podcast that we did about helping versus enabling, because that is a really good thing. Most of us think we're helping and really we are enabling. So it's important to note too that codependency often stems from emotional emeshment. So that is a hard word where most people don't understand what that is. So enmeshment is where boundaries between individuals, they're blurred one person may feel responsible for the, another person's emotions or actions or vice versa. An example of enmeshment would be your husband, I don't know, drives home drunk and you blame yourself. You're so codependent that you think that's your fault because you should have gone and driven him home.

Randi: 2:54

Is

Jess: 2:54

that a good example?

Randi: 2:55

Yeah. Or maybe you're like a mom who's really close to your son and you're like picking out his dates on Tinder. Something that's maybe Just like over the line of a healthy like type of relationship.

Jess: 3:09

Yes, that's what enmeshment is. When you guys are, you can't tell whose feelings are whose and they're just so stuck together. And so it's also called codependence because both people in the relationship are dependent on these dynamics. So one person depends on being needed and the other depends on being taken care of it. There's an expectation there

Randi: 3:31

So how does really being codependent affect us as women and affect our mental health? And I think it leads to that those of us who are Who were raised in this type of environment to often we repeat the patterns. Oh, yes, totally where you know You are self sacrificing and caregiving is heavily emphasized It can become very ingrained and being codependent and for me, too This was true because my mom was chronically ill so and I'm an old older daughter So I have all the care giving, if you go on tick tock and you see all the Are you an older daughter? Like we're not okay kind of thing. You have learned to be like a sacrifice for everybody and put your needs last. And but this can lead to chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and As women, it's hard enough to meet our own needs while constantly trying to prioritize the emotional well being of others, or our kids, or our friends, or our spouse, or our partner. And this is why, over time, relationships like this that are codependent can really erode at your self esteem and your self worth and who you are. And then it makes it really hard to maintain. Those types of healthy boundaries. You need to have a good, healthy relationship.

Jess: 4:52

And yes. And those are boundaries with your spouse, boundaries with your children, your neighbors, your friends, your boss. Whatever it is, whatever it is that you need. Most of the time when you're codependent, you don't even know what you need anymore because. You have no self identity. Exactly. Oh, well, if they're happy, I'm happy. If this person's happy, I'm happy. And you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Where is your happiness? Well, I want to make sure they're happy first.

Randi: 5:19

I just had a thought, too. I think that codependency, too, can be interlinked with trauma, like a trauma response. Because if we don't have to think of what we've gone through, what we've gone through. or what we need to process. We're ignoring it and we're focusing everything on this other person. So it can be like a two way street with codependency. Like you might not want to look inward, so you're looking outwards and you're supporting that person through their codependent habits in a way to, for avoidance.

Jess: 5:51

Exactly. Well, that's why you find a lot of children of alcoholics are codependent. And then they end up taking care of or marrying an alcoholic because they know how to do it and they don't put their needs It's the pattern. And so we repeat these patterns because we haven't learned boundaries or we haven't learned how to take care of ourselves. Because when you have a child of an alcoholic, we're talking the angry alcoholics or we got to be careful because dad eggshells. Yes it's all of that that just gets repeated Over and over and most times their self esteem or self worth is so low That their needs aren't important because they don't even know what those are right and they'll accept anything like scraps

Randi: 6:35

Are better than nothing they feel like

Jess: 6:36

well that made me sad scraps so The other thing this also leads to though, Randy, is resentment and just emotional exhaustion. It's a heavy weight to carry. Yeah, and you're like resenting yourself and resenting the person that you're codependent with. It happens both ways.

Randi: 6:55

This dynamic is super draining, and it can leave us as women feeling trapped, isolated, or guilty for wanting space or independence. And who should feel guilty for wanting to explore things like that? In themselves or things that they enjoy or things they want to do. That's not normal. And this makes women lose sight of who they are outside of a relationship or who they are outside of motherhood or who they are outside of their job. You can be codependent on your work or your co there's. All sorts of different dynamics and this can lead to an identity crisis. I think it's why a lot of us as women have midlife crises or I see a lot of divorce or separations, like when you hit like 35 because you're like all of a sudden Shit, who am I?

Jess: 7:42

Exactly. You said work, what I thought was interesting is that yeah, you can be codependent on work because that's where you might get your validation. Yeah. If I do well, I get a feeling worthiness. Yeah. Yeah. I get a raise or they tell me how amazing I am. And so there is some codependency on that. Speaking of midlife crisis, this is a side thing. I was looking at some of the the e new ecar, they have out Uhhuh and I was trying to convince my spouse to let's go buy one of the new Mustang ones. Mm-Hmm. And he was like. Great, so I can drive around your midlife crisis? Yes! I was like, yes! That was about

Randi: 8:15

time. It should be like reverse.

Jess: 8:16

Yeah, I was like, no, no, it's my midlife crisis. So that's a sidetrack there. I don't want to normalize necessarily codependency, but I want people to understand what it is. Maybe

Randi: 8:25

normalize the ability to understand it and to recognize it.

Jess: 8:30

Yeah, because we want to support healthy relationships, but how do we tell when it's at play?

Randi: 8:35

Well, the first step when trying to recognize when codependency is happening is look to see if you find yourself putting someone else's needs above your own, or you're feeling anxious or guilty or like you're walking on eggshells when you do try to set boundaries or try to do something for yourself. if you start noticing those patterns, then it's good. It's time to take a step back and assess what is happening in your relationship and the dynamic.

Jess: 9:04

And by assessing, I really want you guys to look at what is going on and what are you getting out of it? Because the relationships you go into when you're 20 and 30, sometimes, we do so much growth as women in our 30s and 40s, and by 50, you just don't give a shit. And it's amazing. We end up changing and growing and who we are. And so sometimes those don't fit our needs anymore. We have to look at, what is going on and what are we getting out of this?

Randi: 9:31

So really it's about when it comes down to it, like we've always said, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, creating healthy boundaries. And you can do that as you grow and change. That is normal. If you are in a healthy relationship, your partner should be okay with you asserting different boundaries or choices or ideals in your life. And you should be able to have a healthy conversation about that. And when you are in a co dependent relationship, it's hard to say no, and it's hard to prioritize yourself. So you need to learn with instilling boundaries. How to say no and how to prioritize your self care and how to do it without guilt and that it's okay To meet your own needs to find your own interests and to have a space for yourself That's just for you and that's actually essential to maintaining your overall mental health Yeah,

Jess: 10:28

and the goal is not to shame you or to shame your spouse your partner your children Sometimes we repeat these relationships as being codependent. And then as we learn, that's how we start making the changes. Another key to overcoming Codependency or being in a codependent relationship is really developing emotional independence that's a hard one, is to be emotionally independent. And we're not doing it as a trauma response. This isn't like emotionally independent trauma response, I don't need anybody. But not

Randi: 10:59

hyper independent. Yeah. Yeah, just emotionally independent. What does that mean?

Jess: 11:04

That means learning to soothe yourself when you're feeling anxious, which most people don't know how to do. Validate. It's very hard. Yes. To

Randi: 11:13

self

Jess: 11:13

soothe. And learning how to validate your own emotions and recognizing that it's not your responsibility to manage other people's feelings.

Randi: 11:22

Okay. Can we say that one more time? Hell yeah.

Jess: 11:24

It is not your responsibility to manage other people's feelings. also, I want to put in too, is that You don't need to go, okay, what are they feeling? That's how I'm going to feel. That's part of managing. I know some people are like, well, I don't feel good if the, if he's upset and the house is upset, nah, live your life and his feelings are his feelings or her feelings are her feelings. You don't have to take on that or hold that. You don't have to

Randi: 11:52

carry that. You don't have to let it weigh you down. Like you need to let that other person be an adult. You need to let them. I think I just sent you a thing about. A trend on TikTok right now, not my mother or something like that. And it's about how women have taken on these roles of mothering like their partner and these younger women are like, that's so cringe. That's gross. But like in our generation, that's what we were taught. Like you just do it all. And like we talked about in kin keeping you just take on all the roles and you do all the things and then you're fucking burnt out. Well, I love the part where she goes,

Jess: 12:27

He wants to know if his black shorts are clean. How the fuck should I know? Yeah.

Randi: 12:31

Why did you wash them?

Jess: 12:32

Yeah. I don't know. Did you watch them? Where'd you put them? Honestly, if I move something, I can tell you where it is, but I'm not responsible for your clean clothes.

Randi: 12:39

And it's in that, that you need to set boundaries like this and that I'm not. I'm gonna do these things. I am not your maid. I am not your chauffeur. I am not your Google calendar. You are a person who is sentiment and has ideas and can create them and think on your own, too. I don't need to think for myself and you. That's too much.

Jess: 13:01

And if you're uncomfortable saying all of what Randy just said, you can just say, I have no idea.

Randi: 13:05

Yeah.

Jess: 13:06

And go back to whatever you're doing. Because you don't have to go look for his black shorts because he doesn't know if they're clean or not. I just was laughing at that one.

Randi: 13:14

And another thing, too, is to normalize asking for help. It's okay to ask for help. This was really hard for me to learn. I

Jess: 13:22

know. Right when you did that, I crossed my legs and my arms. I was like, nope.

Randi: 13:26

I can do it myself. Yeah. Jess and I are both hyper independent. And. And that's not always a good thing. No, it's not. And because you can push people away with that, being hyper independent, because then people think you don't need them. And so then they just don't offer their help if you deny it all the time. And so sometimes you can put a block in your relationship when you do that. So you don't need to feel like you need to be the one to fight it. Fix everything or take care of everyone. You don't have to do it all. You need to be able to lean on your friends, on your partner, on your family, on a therapist, on whatever Google forum it is to gain a sense of balance and a healthier way to relate to what you're going through.

Jess: 14:11

I was laughing last week let's see, I changed out a toilet, the next day I had to fix a sink because, now listen to me say I had, I had to fix a sink because it was leaking, and then the next day my freaking battery in my car died, which it was totally my fault, and I learned how to change a battery, and I was like, you know what, I officially don't need anybody anymore. No. I don't know why anybody is even in this house, I can do everything myself, but here's the That's a normal

Randi: 14:35

ADHD rage

Jess: 14:36

response. It totally is, but here's the thing. Apparently, so I changed it, everything worked, the next day I go to get in my car and my new battery is dead. I had one delivered because I was like, I don't want to deal with any of that stuff. So I delivered it, put it in, the next day it was dead. And my husband was like, he had asked me the day before, he goes did you leave anything on? No. And he just was like, okay. Totally left the backlight of my car on. And so he jumps my car. He helps me because I'm like, at this point, I'm so frustrated to just take you didn't ask for help,

Randi: 15:05

but you're like, Okay, well, I guess I'm gonna get it now. Well, and I'm like, I don't

Jess: 15:08

know how your electric car thing goes. So you do it. And so we got my car jumped. We're going down to the dealership because something catastrophic must be wrong. And then I noticed as he's following me because he was being helpful because he said, Well, your car dies, I you'll have no hazard lights. So let me just follow you. Okay. Okay, cool, fine, whatever. And I look, and in the back of my car, my light's on. So I was like Never mind. Yeah, I think we could go home. My light's on.

Randi: 15:33

So in a roundabout way, if you had asked for help or him to like double check what you had done, it might have negated all that. Yeah,

Jess: 15:41

yeah. So that's why I was saying super independence isn't always a good thing.

Randi: 15:44

Oh, so I was going to say for those of you who are listening in who might be like on the outside looking in at a codependent relationship, if you see maybe like a friend or a family member that has this how do you support them? And really, you need to come from a non judgmental, Support beam. You don't want to criticize them. You don't want to make them feel worse. You just want to encourage them to take care of themselves. Point the arrow back at themselves and what they can do in the situation for themselves. Don't like intercede about like how they should, maintain the relationship, but maybe hey have you taken time, to watch your favorite show? Or do you want to, go grab a bite to eat? Maybe they need to focus on taking care of themselves

Jess: 16:29

also looking at, maybe you say, well, what are your boundaries with this? Oh, you don't have boundaries. Well, maybe it's a good time to meet with somebody or talk with somebody to learn what they are or what might really work for you. it's helping them through that way because most of us who are in these codependent relationships, we think that we can't survive without them. because that's how we get our validation. So it's about showing compassion and helping, not enabling when you see it's possible, especially because if they want fulfilling relationships, we don't want people to have to sacrifice their own emotional wellbeing.

Randi: 17:54

Mm hmm. we really need to normalize that it is okay for relationships to change, grow, and evolve. It's healthy and it's normal. sometimes, yes, a codependent relationship can shift into a healthy relationship. It can happen with open communication, with boundary setting, with therapy, with all the right tools. You don't always have to end a relationship just because you see a red flag. You can try and if, you try and try and try and it's not working, then, definitely end it, but it doesn't mean like it's an end all just because something is happening. We all have issues. We all have mental health struggles. We all have trauma. We all have, triggers but you can change the way that you engage with these things and change the patterns of the way that they're happening in your relationships.

Jess: 18:43

Yes. We all have the ability to grow and learn and do things differently than we grew up with or what we were taught. And just because you thought it should be one way, I thought I had to do all the cooking for years. And then I was like, Oh wait, that's not it. And then we can change it. It doesn't always have to stay exactly the same.

Randi: 19:02

Yeah. You can flip the script. Oh, yeah,

Jess: 19:04

there you go. Flip the script. All right. So now let's go back and answer our, have you ever questions, Randy?

Randi: 19:10

Okay. So let's again, define just what is codependency.

Jess: 19:14

Codependency describes a relationship pattern where one person puts their own needs on hold to excessively meet the needs of another. It's marked by a lack of boundaries where your sense of purpose becomes entwined. with caring for another person. Often this is at the expense of our own well being. It's up to us. It's almost like you're the only one rowing that two person rowboat. That is exhausting. Exhausting, yeah. You're like, no, no, there are two oars in this, somebody, what are you doing in this? And that is codependent, but the person in the rowboat's no, I have to do this, I have to take care of us, while the other person's sitting there having a beer. Yeah. That just doesn't seem fair. Okay. Randi, how can I tell if I'm codependent?

Randi: 19:58

Again, recognizing codependency in ourselves is a very courageous first step to take to even think about it. Don't feel guilty that you're even thinking about it. It takes courage to think about it. Look for signs that you have difficulty saying no. Maybe you have low self esteem or your self esteem is low. Tethered to the other person and their moods you have a really strong need to caretake or kind of overtake situations. Maybe you're prioritizing other needs above your own mental health, your own physical health and things like that, or staying in a relationship that is maybe harmful to you. Mm

Jess: 20:34

hmm.

Randi: 20:34

And it's more than just being generous or like loving, it's a pattern really that can weigh you down and weigh heavily on your heart and your mind. And so those are the things that you start to look for.\ What causes codependency?

Jess: 20:49

Most of this can be found in the roots of our childhood. We learned these relationship behaviors and boundaries or rather lack of boundaries. It can stem from different family dynamics, emotional neglect, or having to perform excessive caretaking roles really early on. Like you were saying earlier, the, are you the oldest child? And that can be part of it is that's what you learned and that's what you do. So when you can understand that this isn't about assigning blame to your parents, this is your fault that I'm codependent. That doesn't work. But really, you've got to do

Randi: 21:23

the work. It doesn't matter because it wasn't done before you. So you've got to be the one to break the generational trauma.

Jess: 21:29

Exactly. So really compassionately address and understand what these deep patterns are and if they're still working for you or not, and if they're not working, change them. Randi, can codependency be a part of a platonic relationship? And do we all know what platonic is?

Randi: 21:47

Non romantic, non sexual, non So like a friendship, like a brother sister dynamic? No? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wait, wait, she gave me a weird look and I'm questioning myself. I thought I was on the right train of thought. And then I was just, I was. Okay. No, I was sitting there going, I think it could also be

Jess: 22:08

family. And then you did it and I was like, Oh yeah. Okay. Okay.

Randi: 22:11

So yes, absolutely. Codependency can be a part of a platonic relationship. While we often discuss it, In the context of a romantic, relationship or partnership, codependency can also happen in friendships familial bonds work relationships with co workers, with anything, or just even just your work period or your job you're doing, it's the dynamic, not necessarily the type of relationship, that really defines the codependency. So it's are you giving, over too much. Are you giving

Jess: 22:43

more than somebody is giving to you? Are you the first one to jump up and say, I'm going to set up all the plans and everybody else is saying, cool. And they don't plan anything. Yeah. I was always that

Randi: 22:52

friend. Yeah. Okay. So just how does codependency affect our mental health, especially as women?

Jess: 23:00

What we were talking about earlier is that it leads to chronic stress and anxiety and depression and overall feelings of just being worthless because you're basing your worth on somebody else's either opinion or their feelings. So it's almost like you're constantly pouring from an empty cup, which can leave you feeling drained and unfulfilled, recognizing that this is what's happening is a huge step towards seeking some balance and, and healing from this codependency. Randy, is codependency the same as caring too much?

Randi: 23:38

While caring for others and being empathetic to others is a beautiful trait, codependency evolves caring to an extent that it harms your emotional well being and it really interrupts your ability to care for yourself. It's like caring too much times a thousand, and it's about you need to find a balance between compassion for others and also taking care of yourself.

Jess: 24:04

There was not a care bear named codependency, or was there? Was there a codependent care bear? There probably was. I don't know if there was, because that's what I was giggling earlier, because I was like, remember those care bears? And they would,

Randi: 24:16

Flash the whole thing. Care Bears share. Yeah. Whatever, brave. Okay, so just, can care, can Care Bears, can Care Bears be codependent too? Yes, they can. I actually think they were. Can men be codependent too?

Jess: 24:30

Absolutely. This does not, it is not just a female or male thing. It doesn't know any kind of gender. It is just about the relationship. Men can also experience codependency through societal expectations about masculinity and emotional expression, right? They're not allowed to show it. They must be a man. They have to live this way. So codependency is really about the dynamic, not the stereotype or gender. And I do love our younger generation now that they really are just stepping up as fathers and they're changing and they are showing their emotional strength and I love it. I love it. Randy, how do I start to heal from a codependency, how do I start to heal from codependency?

Randi: 25:20

Really healing starts with awareness. being self aware about it, and the belief that you deserve to prioritize your well being. Believing in yourself. Believing that your self care is important. Seeking therapy, establishing those boundaries, finding a supportive community. These are really fundamental steps on how to start healing from a codependent relationship. As we always emphasize it's a journey. It's not like a race to the finish line. And it's not a

Jess: 25:49

destination. You

Randi: 25:50

don't go, Oh, I reached it. it's going to constantly be evolving and changing and you have to relearn these things from scratch. It's incredibly hard to do, and it's a lot of work, and you have to be able to listen to yourself, listen to others, and be able to start to learn to fulfill your needs and desires again. And that's a hard thing to do is to learn who you are again.

Jess: 26:17

What's interesting is the other day I was showing somebody how you can lock your kid out of YouTube.

Randi: 26:22

Oh, yeah, that's my favorite, but they always find a way around.

Jess: 26:25

Well, and I had showed the person how to do it. This is how you can, set a limit. I can set a limit on my daughter's YouTube for an hour and a half. Well, I forgot to unset that limit. And so I have been working on my own hobbies the last couple of years and really exploring what I like and what I want to do. So I forgot to unset it. I was still in sessions. I was moved on to the next person. My daughter's, now texting me. Why did I limit her YouTube? Oh yeah. And so then she's in the car with my husband getting mad saying, well, Mom's always in the garage doing her hobbies. Why? Why can't I have

Randi: 26:59

access to YouTube 24 7?

Jess: 27:01

Exactly. And my husband's like, well, we might not want to approach mom like that. He totally supported mom has a right to her hobbies. Why don't we ask her what happened and I was like, oh shoot. I'm so sorry I was just showing somebody how to do it. Total accident. Here you go

Randi: 27:15

And then she went off the deep end but she talked to you about it first, right? And approached you from a good place instead of where cuz dad redirected her.

Jess: 27:23

Exactly that's part of I was setting a boundary with what I want to do with my time And it was just a fun side note. And you

Randi: 27:30

shouldn't feel guilty for that either because she was trying to go the route Well, um You know, and same thing with my kids. They will often be like, well, mom, and, and, well, mom works 24 seven. And so she can afford these hobbies.

Jess: 27:44

And that's what my, that's what the spouse said that he's well, mom has worked really hard and she's earned this and she's the one that kind of pays for this. So we're not going to approach her that way, but it is important to figure out who the whole purpose of that story. I would say it's important to figure out what you like to do and what it is that makes you happy. Because you really need to figure out what your needs and desires are. Yeah.

Randi: 28:06

And that leads into, can a codependent relationship become a healthy relationship?

Jess: 28:11

I say yes, absolutely. But both people have to be able to recognize it, and recognize the patterns, and really share that they both want to make a change. Because then it can heal. But if one person is saying, I want to change, and one is change what? I don't want to change anything. It isn't going to work.

Randi: 28:31

Yeah. Again, it comes back to the communication piece and the listening piece and things that we've talked about, before on our podcast, you need to utilize all these tools together to make the puzzle come together. And in huge

Jess: 28:45

respect for each other and the reason somebody is wanting to change. Yeah. And that's it too, is respecting that it's not working for them and they want to change. So Randi, where can we or our listeners find support for this?

Randi: 28:57

Well, it can come from a variety of areas. Like we've talked about counseling, support groups they have specific ones for codependency, trusted friends. There's lots of educational resources. We'll list some on the website too. Some good codependency books and always, always remember that seeking help is a sign of strength. Huge sign of strength. And it's a very Empowering step to take, and that helps, will help you restore the balance that you're missing in your life and in your relationship.

Jess: 29:30

And I want you guys to remember, as we wrap this up, is that I want you to look at your relationships and see if this is something that's happening with you. I want you to be able to reflect upon that in your own relationships. It is never too late to set healthy boundaries or to take care of yourself. Or to build a balanced connection with those in your lives. And it's not an or, it's an and, and, and, and, and. But it's never too late to make these changes. I don't care if you're 20, 30, 40, 70. Make these changes.

Randi: 30:01

You can still make it. They always say you can't teach. Teach an old dog new tricks. And that's a lie. You can change up until the day you die if you want. And we hope that if you enjoy today's episode, that you share it with someone who might benefit from hearing about codependency and as always, thank you for joining us on the women's mental health podcast, we're here to support you in your mental health journey and self care

Jess: 30:23

until next time, take care of yourselves and each other.