My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
Learning Mental Prayer (Season 3 Episode 45)
We explore mental prayer through a Carmelite lens, moving from definitions and methods to the lived experience of silence, distraction, and trust. The theme is simple and demanding: prayer is a relationship, not a performance, and silence is where love learns to listen.
• mental prayer as interior attention and loving presence with God
• meditation using reason vs mental prayer using affection and attention
• rosary as rhythm that steadies focus on the mysteries
• how distraction and dryness purify motives and deepen trust
• the necessity of silence for identity, depth, and freedom from noise
• discursive prayer and the Carmelite emphasis on friendship with Christ
• practical helps for recollection: scripture, crucifix, sacred music
• growing intimacy through practice, Lectio Divina, small resolutions
• reflection prompts on silence, expectations, and dialogue vs monologue
Other Prayer Episodes
- Prayer: Building a Relationship with God Beyond Words (Season 2 Episode 40)
- Unraveling Christian Prayer: Understanding its Role and Purpose in Christian Life (Season 2 Episode 39)
- Prayer (Season 1 Episode 8)
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Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and thanks for listening. If you like My Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us if you haven't already done so. And if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again, and God bless. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar, Father Stephen Sanchez, a discalist Carmelite priest. Good morning, Father. Good morning. Are you holding your microphone? What are you doing? Yes, I am. Did you break something?
SPEAKER_01:No, I just didn't want to be hunched to.
SPEAKER_04:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:Well, maybe we should get you a stick or something to you know a floating microphone holder thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. If you have if you only had like a bunch of books, you could like make stack them up and just put the microphone on on top of a bunch of books.
SPEAKER_03:If only you had a bunch of books. That means I'll have to buy more books, I guess.
SPEAKER_04:So um this morning I went to confession and was just thinking about this. In the line for confession, it's such a remarkable place. Um which when's the last time you had to wait in line to go to confession? Never. Yeah. It's been a minute, huh? Just yeah, just knock on the door.
SPEAKER_00:Hey.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So it's it's such a remarkable place because I'm I'm standing there and there's 8 a.m. uh Saturday morning mass. Um and confession starts at 8 a.m. So everyone's kind of in the same place. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I am uh and I'm I'm not trying to poke fun at anyone, um, including myself, but I'm thinking to myself, I am such a wretched sinner because whenever I run into any of like my church brothers, like they're all going to mass, and I'm in line for confession, and so um, which is fine. Um, I I need it more than they do. Um, I hope, I pray. And um, but then I'm standing there and I'm watching people and they're doing their daily mass thing, and um I think it's um opportunity for us to be very reflective on um ourselves and our our perspective, where we're how we look at everything around us. Um, so it's like one of my favorite things to do, I shouldn't say it like that, but you you'll know what I'm saying, is to complain about how everybody's dressed at mass, right? Like, uh you're you shouldn't be dressed, you shouldn't be wearing that at mass and stuff, right? But anyway, um, so you would think people who go to to Saturday morning daily mass would be dressed so reverently, and there's people in shorts and flip-flops, and there's you'll whatever, right? And then you have people who receive communion. And I'm talking like little old ladies, little like 80-year-old ladies, they go receive communion, and they just leave right after before the mass is concluded. And and um so I'm sitting there realizing or sitting there, I'm standing there realizing like I am so judgmental, like I am sorry. Um, and so it's just it's like I said, it's a very remarkable place to be because I think it it um it forces you to well, I don't know, if it forces you, if you're open to it, it helps to absolutely put a link to self-aware on become aware of what you're yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean yeah, standing in line for confession doesn't necessarily mean you're aware. I think part of it is yeah, capacity, a capacity for self-awareness, capacity to be objective about yourself, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so anyway, it was it's just very interesting. Um yeah, so sorry, and then I had to go get coffee afterwards because I was pretty tired. Um still, so today, now that we're done with with that, um actually now that we're done with that before we talk about what we're doing. How are you doing? I feel like I don't know. I feel like I just saw you, but I still feel like I never see you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's been a while. It's been a while.
SPEAKER_04:We're good. Yeah, anything big going on at uh Mount Carmel?
SPEAKER_00:No, we got a group here right now. Um retreat till tomorrow, so yeah.
SPEAKER_04:With your um with your really strong voice, make sure you don't hold the mic too close because I'm it could just be my headphones, but it seems like it it might be picking you up really, really well.
SPEAKER_03:Is it picking up too much? You got that deep radio voice, it's smooth like butter.
SPEAKER_04:Excuse me. All right, so today we're talking about prayer, one of our favorite things. Um mental prayer and um this is something that is deeply rooted in Carmelite tradition. Um it's sometimes like we might call it uh mental prayer, we might call it silent prayer, we might call it meditative prayer. Um I think a lot of people are excuse me, a lot of people are obviously familiar with vocal prayer. Like you might say the rosary, you might uh say the Our Father, uh the prayers at Mass, things like that. Um but mental prayer, it's obviously the opposite of those things. It's all interior, and um I think it's something like at least for me too, it is there's a feeling of am I doing this right? And I know prayer is not performative, but it's it's like I want my prayer time to be fruitful, right? I want to draw close to the Lord and I want to spend that time with him. And that doesn't necessarily mean sitting there thinking about the the squirrels that Betty feeds or the ducks or or whatever, right? Like there's something more to it than just sitting there. Um well, and and maybe that's part of it. Maybe it's not more than just that, and maybe there or maybe it's not that yeah, there's different elements to it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, um, okay, so so when we say mental prayer, like what do we mean by that? Um, how is it different than uh meditation? Why is it such a strong emphasis in the Carmelite um tradition? Like these are kind of questions that I have. So can you start off giving us like basic definitions for um what mental or silent prayer is, maybe how it relates to vocal prayer. Um I know we've talked about prayer a lot, and so I will make sure to kind of link or or link them or something in the show notes so people can go back and listen to other episodes or other prayer episodes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Prayer, relationship, those those things that are necessary to understand. Yep. Yeah. Um well, first I think uh before I start, I just want to caution that if you're reading any spiritual author, sometimes the definition of prayer depends upon the author, their understanding, right? So sometimes there's different ways of understanding, different ways of speaking of uh this dialogue. Uh so when someone refers to mental prayer or silent prayer, in a way they're referring to some type of or some form of meditation or some way of recollecting your faculties or focusing, you know, focusing your attention um on an interior dialogue with God. And so it's can be it can be connected to external forms of worship like vocal prayer, it can be, but meditation, mental prayer, silent prayer is more of becoming more interior, uh focusing your attention upon God's presence within you, or placing yourself within God's presence, become aware of that presence. Um so we would say then the mental prayer or silent prayer is when we take time to focus our attention on an interior dialogue or communion with God. Another way of saying it is to bring the heart and the mind together into God's presence and enter into that relationship, into that dialogue with growing attention. Um mental prayer and vocal prayer. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, uh when we recite the rosary, we should be engaged in both vocal and mental prayer. I am supposed to be reflecting upon that particular mystery of the Lord's life, let's say uh the agony in the garden, while reciting that section or decade, decade of the rosary. So it's both mental prayer and vocal prayer happening at the same time. And formally speaking, there is a slight difference between meditation and mental prayer. The meditation aspect is when I'm using my reason, when I'm using my intellect to consider a truth of the faith, for example, if I'm considering the Holy Trinity. And so then the meditation would be then what is the consequence of this truth, right? If there is, let's say God is, then there's relational, so part of God's being is relational. And if God's being is relational and we're made in the image and likeness of God, then that means I am called to have a relational dimension to my life. So it's sort of like using my logic and my reason, right? And that's sort of the meditation part, which then leads me to mental prayer, right? Okay, so the mental prayer part is okay, so now God is relational, he's created me to be relational, so now I'm entering into relation with him in prayer, and that calls forth then a relationship means that I need to bring forth my affection, my attention uh to this presence, to this relationship, which then leads on to you know, some sort of petition or intercession or resolutions on my part. So it's uh it's they're all parts of the relationship. It just sometimes you have to make you do make a formal distinction as to uh the use of the reason and the use of the affect and use of logic, and then just sort of like an internal um attention to the dialogue to that relating.
SPEAKER_04:Is there um yeah, no, it does. And the rosary is hard for me to pray because it is I don't know just if I'm squirrel, you know, like OCD, whatever, or uh ADD or whatever, where it's like I know like you were saying, reflecting on the mystery, got it, but now I have to say something at the same time, and it's so hard. Um, and I wonder if it's like that for a lot of people, but um I guess there's also nothing necessarily wrong with internalizing it all instead of vocalizing the prayer, just reflecting on it and kind of working your way mentally through the the prayers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think this, for example, the Roji, I think there's something really um creative and amazing how this works together so that as you recite these prayers, as you recite the Hell Mary over and over and over again, it becomes sort of it becomes um I don't want to say a white noise, but it becomes like a metronome, it becomes a rhythm, and then basically as you gain that rhythm, then what happens is you're not necessarily paying attention to the Hail Mary, you're paying attention to the mystery, and so basically the Hail Mary is keeping you from becoming too distracted in other things while you're focusing your inner attention in upon the mystery, whether it's the agony, the garden, or whether it's the baptism, whatever it might be. And it's interesting that our brain can work that way. I can be talking or I can be using one part of my brain for that repetitive part, and the other part of my brain, the other part of my consciousness, uh, my soul, the other part of my soul then is reflecting upon that mystery of the Lord's life. So it's it's an interesting exercise, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. It made me think of two things. Now I understand why I have a hard time because I'm white and I have no rhythm, is what it is. Um the the second thing and more appropriately is um after my mom had had her stroke, and uh one of the things that was a challenge for her um was um speaking, right? Um it was it was hard for her to initiate speech. Like you could ask her a question, like, hey mom, how are you doing? She could say fine, right? But to um initiate speech on her own was really hard. And so one of the things that the um the uh speech therapist had said is like look for things that are like stuck way down there in memory where you don't even have to think about, you're not really responding to something. So like singing happy birthday, counting to 10. You've done it so many times you're not even thinking about it, right? And one of the things that mom and I would do is we'd pray a rosary together because those prayers are just there, right? And so that was something that just popped in my head just now as you're talking about that. How how we can kind of do two things, yeah, and how it becomes a rhythm, yeah. Um, okay, so what does this look like in daily life, right? What does this mental prayer look like in our daily lives? When somebody walks into church, they see people praying. Um, you know, some people might maybe some people do mental prayer, we don't even think about it, right? Or we we don't realize that we're doing it. But how does like the the kind of the gray area there is how does that differ than just thinking about something um or just sitting there in silent stillness? Right? Like I how how can maybe another way of of uh thinking about it is I might be considering the Trinity. So that was the example you're using, right? I could be thinking about the Trinity, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily praying. So there's like and we I guess we also want to be careful in our our westernish westernness, not like cowboy westernness, but like Latin westernness, where we overanalyze sometimes and we sort of overdefine things and whatever. Yeah, but but it's it's worth trying to understand. So, like, what's the difference between all that? Can you can you walk us through what maybe is happening interiorly during a mental prayer?
SPEAKER_00:It's all a process, right? And so where we where we want to get to, where we want to get to, we want to get to that interior silence that uh, like for example, when you're at adoration, when you're at adoration and you're just quiet and you're just adoring God silently, you know, uh in your heart, right? That's we want to be able to get to that place, but it takes time to get to that place. So when we're talking about mental prayer and we're talking about um what's m going on interiorly in the person, one when we talk about mental prayer, we're talking about uh I I am presupposing or or we make the presupposition that we are attempting to or we're trying to focus all of our attention, both interior and exterior, upon the divine presence, right? Within me or in the blessed sacrament or wherever it might be, right, wherever you're placing um or focusing on the divine presence, right? This is uh something that's also called recollection when you are recollecting or you're collecting or you're gathering your faculties, right? So you're gathering all your faculties, your sensory faculties, or your interior or exterior senses, and trying to be intentional about focusing on being present to the Lord. Um, and there's different ways of doing that. Um, for example, uh sometimes we can use sacred music, we can use uh different things to sort of block other things out and sort of put up a what do you call, I guess, uh a sacred hedge around what's happening inside of me. And so I'm trying to be attentive to the presence, and that's collecting or recollecting your faculty. So that's one of the things that we're trying to do when we talk about mental prayer. Um so I think that's one of the things we have to be aware of. So mental prayer is uh, for example, uh, let's say it this way. So I know some people will pray the rosy when they're when they're driving to work or coming, driving back from work or whatever, right? Or they listen to the rosri and pray the rosier while they're driving or something, or they're or jogging or running or walking or whatever, right? Like, okay, yeah, that's a good practice. You you're we can talk about uh brother Lawrence of the resurrection sometime. That is uh the practice of the presence of God in a way, but is it mental prayer? Is it meditation? Well, no, because if you're driving, you should be paying attention to what to your driving and not reflecting upon uh well maybe some people can do that, right? Uh reflect upon the the mysteries of the Lord uh while you're driving, right? So I think uh we have to be careful about making such a really hard distinction, but also making a distinction. There is a distinction between gathering all of myself uh into the presence, right? Um but there is there is this this again, as I mentioned earlier, there is a slight difference between meditation and mental prayer, right? So that's that's what we have to be aware of. So the meditation is again using that logic, using that reason, and that meditation aspect, uh, the mental prayer aspect is just placing myself in in that presence. So there is then there is one, there is an interiority, so which is it is the prayer of the heart and the mind in mental prayer, and then there's a dialogue. So as I focus myself and focus. Upon this relationship. Then I begin to dialogue with the divine. I dialogue or speak to or open my heart up to whether it's the sacred heart of the Good Shepherd or the Holy Spirit or God the Father. I begin to build this conversation, right? So it's about building this personal relationship with Him. And so I go from, you know, first there's an interiority, then there's a converse or dialogue with God. Then there's the reflection meditation part again to where I'm thinking about this relationship. I'm thinking about the truth of the faith. I'm thinking about my discipleship. I'm thinking about my commitment to this relationship. And then in that, that also brings up then my affect. Either I'm contrite for my failures, or I make acts of love, or I make acts of faith, or I bring some sort of emotional, psychological component to this dialogue, to this converse. And then part of it too is just this reflective silence. I sit with this truth, I sit in this quiet, I sit in this divine presence and this love. And I just allow myself to just be right. And then usually when we end mental prayer, uh we make a resolution, like either to be better, uh to try harder, uh, to commit to be more loving, to be more present to him throughout the day, or be present to others throughout the day. So those are all different aspects that can that can be part of that mental prayer.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, something that was interesting to me as you were describing these kind of elements of mental prayer, um going back to uh confession. Um and I I I really do think it's it's a tragedy how a lot of our separated brothers and sisters. Um like it's true that Jesus loves you, right? And you you can't escape his love and his mercy and his grace. Um uh but the thought that I don't have to the well, so I guess uh to try to paraphrase things probably poorly, for Catholics, conversion is a lifelong process, and for a lot of non-Catholic Christians, sometimes it's it's a moment, right? Right um of conversion for the rest of your life, and now you're converted kind of thing. So that's the thing, that's what I think is the tragedy, because as I think back to these elements that you're talking about of internal prayer, how similar that is to every time you go to confession, how you're reflecting if you're lucky enough to stand in line for an hour like I do. Uh right, you have that dialogue, that interaction with Jesus, um, right? Our hearts are in it. Like there's that, like you're saying, there's that um that kind of acceptance that I've done this thing that I don't like, that I don't want. I want to be like you, Jesus, I don't want to be my brokenness, right? Um, and then that resolution to go and sin no more kind of thing. It's really interesting how, and I would imagine the better we get at truly praying and um spending that time with Jesus daily, many times a day. I have a I have a strange feeling that um prayer and sin probably can't be in the same place at the same time, or or something like that, you know what I'm saying? So it's like the more I'm actually praying, the less likely I am to be sinning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Because you become more aware of that. You become, okay, so one of the effects of this relationship with God, which we call prayer, is that we become more and more aware of the areas of our life that still need to be evangelized, that still need to be converted. Uh and so we then sometimes without knowing, uh, we start growing uh deeper into virtue. Well, okay, we would say habituated. Yeah, virtue becomes habituated, and so we would grow more into virtue, whether it's patience or whether it's temperance, whether it's charity, whatever it might be, which then means that I'm leaving behind you know the lack of charity, I'm leaving behind a rashness. Um so it's a way in which we're growing out of those um things that lessen or dilute um our discipleship, right? And so it's making those, as I said before, it's about making better choices. So as the more I pray, the better choices I am capable of making.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So obviously, my favorite method of entering into mental prayer is standing in line at confession. What about you? Like, do you have a uh because you don't have to stand in line, apparently. Um what about how do you normally go about doing it? Well, because you do this several times a day, every day for the current rest of your life for years.
SPEAKER_00:So I guess, you know, at this point in my relationship with the Lord, I I don't follow a structure uh unless I find myself in a period of dryness or desolation, right? I usually just enter into my prayer by being quiet and entering into the presence and simply allowing myself to be loved and to allow myself to make acts of love or to love uh the Lord in the silence, right? In that prayer just to open up my heart. Um but if I do find myself struggling to remain attentive, uh there's different things that I could use. I'll I'll pick up the scripture and maybe read something from scripture, like we talked about uh Lexia Divina. It's a little Lexia Levina, or even pick up uh the rosary and just maybe pray a decade or reflect on a mystery, right? To help me focus and remain attentive. Uh so that's some one of the things that I'll do, but usually it's a matter of just sitting in there before the Blessed Sacrament, just being quiet, or sitting in my room and just being quiet and just sort of become aware of the inner presence, become aware of the divine presence within me and just sort of be with him uh in that during that time.
SPEAKER_04:What kind of things make um, if you don't mind me asking, I guess this is kind of a personal question. Um, the you're saying unless you're feeling kind of this dryness or kind of desolation, I you're a very busy person. So, like in my mind, I imagine if you're feeling tired or if you've just got so much going on, what are the things that make it difficult for you at this point in time in your relationship to feel close to God?
SPEAKER_00:I think um well, part of okay, so being spirit, flesh, flesh, spirit, sometimes uh the difficulty can be uh exhaustion, right, or tiredness, right? I'm tired, I'm hungry or whatever. Or tired, hungry, right, or I'm sick, right? I've got a sinus headache or you know, allergies or whatever, and I find that distracting or something. But trying to get a move away from that, uh, those are things that can be distracting or just exhausted or uh frustrated, you know, with uh uh God's people, uh, regardless of where they find themselves. And sometimes like, oh, I can't believe this. But anyway, um, and sometimes it can be distracting, and so it's a matter of um just really sort of trying to shed all that and just sort of you know refocus and recommit uh to that interiority, to that presence, right? Or it's for me, a lot of times what'll help helps me is just to the the crucifix that we have in our chapel. Sometimes just sitting there and just looking at the crucifix and just focusing all my attention on that helps me a lot to sort of refocus and just put all those other things, just let them just fall fall fall away. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I I I guess that's um I'm actually I'm glad I asked now because it's um it's not any different, I don't think, than anyone else, you know. Um and it doesn't matter if you're a professional at this kind of thing, you know what I'm saying? Um that you're a priest and you have the same kind of struggles that I do or my 18-year-old daughter does when you're tired, when you're hungry, when you're not feeling well, when things are busy, when people drive you crazy, it's like yeah, all of those things get in the way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it takes, I guess, I guess it takes practice and practice and practice. And sometimes I think it's easier the more you practice it. So if you are tired, if you're feeling sick or crappy or whatever, right, don't stop praying. In fact, you know, continue, be committed to the relationship, be committed to the practice so that it becomes easier and easier, right? So that those things do not become an obstacle, do not become an impediment. So it's important to pray even though you don't feel like praying.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, you definitely don't want something to start becoming an excuse, like, oh, I couldn't do it because. Right. Right. It's like, no, I did it because I felt this way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I forget even I forget what work St. Teresa Jesus talks about that. She says, um, be be what be wary or be careful of the nun who because she has a headache, you know, she does she doesn't go to prayer, and so she doesn't go to prayer because she has a headache, and then all of a sudden then she doesn't go to prayer because she's afraid of getting a headache, or then she doesn't go to prayer because she might get a headache. And so basically you're you wind up finding excuses to not show up. And she says you you have to be very careful not to allow that to happen. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I think um Mother, was it Mother Angelica, the little little late, little old nun who would have the TV show um back in the day? Um I think it was her I heard say once that everybody needs an hour of adoration every day unless you're really, really busy, and then you need two hours or something like that. So um, yeah. Okay, so so prayer, like I'd said at the beginning, sometimes like I know it's not performative, but I kind of feel myself getting caught in like, is anything happening? Is there any fruit in this? Am I doing things right? Um, or I'm very distracted. I struggle with distraction so much, and I try um with I I try and fail honestly because I lack the discipline to I think do so consistently where uh like I'll try and have um like my rosary with me or a uh like a card, like a little prayer card, something like to focus on. And I still think super distracted. Yeah. Um so like what would you say to somebody who feels like just sitting there and that silence is not fruitful or they're not doing it right, or something like that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, one is that everyone struggles with distraction. And and it may be very prevalent on the first part of this relationship, this journey into God, because this is new. And so I would suggest that one, listeners go back and download our episodes on relationships and and those on prayer. And so one of the things to remember is that in any relationship, and that is what prayer is, really in any relationship, there is attention and a questioning that is typical of any encounter. Uh and uh and by that I mean, am I coming across, am I reading right? Am I understanding what's being in this dialogue, uh being aware of the limit limitations of the dialogue and the the way we try to communicate with each other? Uh but I think, especially in the culture of the United States, and because our influence on the rest of the world, probably most of the West, as you were saying earlier, the westernness of our culture, there is an underlying current of the Protestant work ethic that tends to equate worldly success through with diligent hard work. So worldly success depends upon diligent hard work, and if this is so, then this the success then is an indication of blessing. So in this sort of subtle hint or the subtle uh uh influence of the culture, when we carry that into our relationship with the Lord, then we set up ourselves for frustration because then I'm beginning to measure myself. Um it's true that I invest time and effort in the relationship, but it's not transactional. Uh it's just because I'm because I'm committed to the relationship, doesn't mean uh I should get something out of it. And at first because God is good, at first we feel comfort, we feel quiet, we feel good about it. But uh this distraction can become very prevalent until we become used to this relationship, right? And so part of what happens is there's a question if I'm doing this and if I'm doing all this hard work of trying to place my attention on the Lord, trying to be present, trying to I'm doing all these things. So why aren't I feeling peace and comfort and warm fuzzies, right? Because at first we might we might receive that, we might be blessed with that, but then in the relationship, as a relationship grows, that can wane because uh we get used to that uh familiar with that relationship. And what can what can happen is that God allows the distraction and the dryness to come because then it's a matter of like, okay, are you here for me or are you here for you? Are you here for the are you here because you want to pat yourself on the back and like look how good I am? Look, look, I'm like I'm here at prayer and I have peace and I feel these warm fuzzies. And then God can allow that to dry up and say, okay, so are you committed to me? Are you committed? Is it is it about me? Is it about you? Right? And so sometimes what can happen is that these thoughts can be very distracting, whether conscious or unconscious, about uh what am I getting out of this, right? And sometimes the fruit comes after prayer, not maybe necessarily during prayer. Um so one of the things that I tell people is when they're having problems with this, is uh the memory try to stir up in people in regards to this relationship with God in this quiet prayer. If you've ever held an infant, a nephew, a niece, a son, daughter, if you've ever held a puppy, a kitten, there there is within us an awe, a fascination, a tenderness towards the the innocent and the helpless. And I tell people, try to think of it that way, try to recapture that stance of awe and tenderness, right? And try to bring that into prayer and make that part of your relationship. It helps you fight distractions, it helps you to fight that measuring or that metric that we might have in prayer. Like just stop trying to measure yourself, just allow yourself to love and to be in awe and in fascination and try to be cultivate tenderness towards God as He has that tenderness towards you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it makes me think of a couple things. One um uh Saint uh Therese of Lizzie um seemed to be so aware of how loved she was by the Lord, right? That um just that I I I I feel like when I read her her um whatever you want to call it, because her letters and things like that, because I think that she wrote them to her sister or something. Um it's been a minute since I read them, but I have the little book where they're all collected together. But anyway, okay. She seems very aware of the loving gaze of God. Right. And and so that is kind of interesting that you bring up an infant holding a little baby or or like that feeling, because anyone who well, I say anyone, I would almost everyone who's ever held a little baby is is just like there's something that just man, it just sucks you into that instant, that moment, right? And so that is really interesting because it is this tenderness is a good word, like that's it's it's what it is. You're gentle with it, you're careful, you're focused. You know what I mean? So that's a really interesting kind of way of thinking about it. And then it also made me think of um Saint Paul when he writes of the was it three times or whatever, he prayed for the thorn in his side to be removed and he said no, like this is for you, man. Um my grace is sufficient, yeah. And and I've thought about that too. Um what an interesting dynamic, uh, like a tension between like feeling revolted, or yeah, like it's revolting the sin in our lives. When when you get to a point where you really recognize how how like yucky like sin is, right? Like this is gross, this is a perversion, this is not the way that stuff is supposed to be, yeah, exactly and how good God is, but then you are it's very humbling to to also go know that if I wasn't such a wretched sinner, I wouldn't need God.
SPEAKER_02:Correct.
SPEAKER_04:And I want God and I need God, and and so there's that weird dynamic, right? So where I guess that's where He can use all things for good.
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:And only God can. Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So it doesn't mean like go out and sin because Jesus loves you. Yeah, but it's it's a very interesting tension, I think, between the two when you're in a hopefully a good place. Um okay, so then right, we have a very noisy life, a very noisy world. We're always busy. Um and I especially see this in young people. Silence is uncomfortable. Um my daughter very regularly gives up music for Lent. Um because like lyrical music, like she always because she's always got her headphones and she's always listening to Spotify or whatever, whatever, right? Um, and so she'll she'll give up um, she says lyrical music. And so Um there's something to that, I think that awareness that we're just filling our life with noise and it's uncomfortable to be silent. Um why is that silence so such an important part of our spiritual life? Like it it's I think it's necessary even. It is, but I don't know if that's too strong.
SPEAKER_01:It is, it is.
SPEAKER_00:And for us, I think for especially for Carmelites, that is one of the the um hallmarks of Carmelite spirituality would be is silence, right? And not just for us, but I think it's it's very important for all believers to value silence. Uh it's it's important, uh, it should be part of our day, it should be part of our prayer life as well. It also belongs in our liturgies. Um I think silence is uncomfortable, firstly, because the culture nowadays is not familiar with it. We have been convinced by uh the dominant culture, Wall Street, Fifth Avenue. We've been convinced by the dominant culture that we need continuous or incessant stimulation, external data continually coming at us, and once we fall into that and get accustomed to that, we get habituated with noise, it's hard not to believe at some level that that noise is necessary. Um, remember once I was talking to somebody who was in uh the industry, entertainment industry, uh, and I remember we were talking, and this person said that they listened to they had one of the news channels on always, right? They always had the news channels on, right? And I asked, like, why? I mean, it repeats itself over and over and over again. This it's very rare there's actual news news because once you have the news of the day, you have the news of the day, unless it's something really, really global impact that happens. And and so I said, So all you're doing is just you just have noise. So why don't you just listen to it in the morning or listen to it at night, or or you know, there's no reason to have it all day, but it became a habit and it was just purely habit. And and this person believed that they just needed it, they needed the noise in their life. Um, so I think what happens is when we've been addicted to it, and it that's why I use that word intentionally, when we become addicted to the noise, uh when we try to be quiet, our brain is confused because we've trained it to continuously process all this noise. And when there is no noise, there's no external stimulus, it's confused. And so it's like, okay, so let me just make up noise because this why, you know, what is this quiet thing here, right? This silence, right? And it may be that we are so addicted to the noise that silence makes us uncomfortable. And so when we come to prayer, we don't know how to be silent. So after we're finished talking, we don't know how to be quiet and just sit in the presence. We just sort of like, okay, I'm done. I prayed like, well, no, you haven't. You've you've been vocalizing internally, right? But you've been vocalizing, you haven't really entered into dialogue. Um anyway, uh let's just I'm gonna leave that there because I'll go down a rabbit hole and I'll go into another rant. So let's let's in the future we'll talk about that. Um, so the reason I think silence is so important is that by acquiring this value of silence, it allows us to place a boundary between us and the world. It allows us to set up this boundary, it allows us not only to gain a little distance from the influence of the culture that we find ourselves in, but what happens is if I allow silence to settle in me, or I settle into silence, it I begin to discover my own reflections, my own thoughts, my own perspectives. It allows me to discover my own depth of being. Uh and when we discover the capac this capacity of our own depth, our depth of understanding, our depth of feeling, the depth of being, we also discover our capacity to be more truly ourselves as human persons, as human beings made in the image and likeness of God. We start to gain perspective and we start gaining objectivity. We discover that our real identity is found in the gift of that being that God has blessed us with, and that this relationship with Him as son or daughter is the most stabilizing and most uh centralizing, if you want to use that word, uh, of my being and my self-understanding. So my relationship then with the rest of the world uh becomes a little subjective because the real important centralizing identity is my being, myself, my profundity, and in that relationship, that filial relationship with God. Um so if that's true and I become centralized or centered on that, I would not be so easily convinced by advertisements that I need the latest and greatest can opener, the latest and greatest phone, the latest and greatest PC, the latest and greatest TV, the latest and greatest, et cetera, et cetera. So it would be dangerous for some people whose entire center of being is about convincing us that we are lacking and that they have the answer to that emptiness or that lack that I feel. And so then, you know, we talk about we could talk about materialism and consumerism and all those other things, but that's probably another six or seven hours of episodes that we're probably gonna have time to right now.
SPEAKER_04:So yeah, no that makes sense. It does, it does. Now I will I will say this though. When you've had a really bad can opener for a long time and you get a brand new one, it that is sweet. Um yeah, but that that is interesting. The the Yeah, we we definitely could go and talk about that forever. That the emptiness, the false emptiness that we accept and that we try to fill in our culture with stuff, and yeah. No, that's that's really that's really something interesting to to think about. So I've so we've talked about like meditation, contemplation. I hear um discursive um prayer. Like how what is that and like how does that relate to mental prayer? And um, if this is a carmelite kind of concept, um like can't I don't know, can you dig into that or kind of explain it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Discursive prayer is is another way of talking about uh meditation or using reason or logic, right? Um I hate to speak in generalities, but at times uh I have to. So generally speaking, the thinking about God can be the central approach in what is called discursive prayer. It's sort of a deductive approach to the truth of the faith, like I said earlier about the like the Trinity, right? Someone who is always in their head may approach prayer in this way. For example, the thinking about God could start with if Jesus Christ is true God and true man, then X follows, right? It's sort of a logical conclusion of the truth of the faith, whereas mental prayer is more about the relationship with this God man and what this relationship means for me and my life. So discursive prayer is something that sometimes is associated with uh ignation method. Quinn Teresa and John talk about discursive prayer, they're talking about, we talked about this earlier, uh uh devotia moderna, the the way of rediscovering uh prayer uh or a method of prayer. So discursus or discursive is about, okay, for example, in the ignition method, it'd be a matter of in my mind, I am building up in my imagination, I am building up Jesus during the uh the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew's gospel. So, you know, where's the sun? Is there a breeze? You know, what's Jesus wearing? Is he sitting on a rock? Is he standing? Where are the trees? And you build up this whole thing, this discursus, right? This whole idea, right? And so part of it is that. And then by that, then you place yourself in that scene, and then you begin to that meditation or that reflection upon where are you in that scene, and what is that scene, how does that scene, you know, sort of uh impact you in your life? So um when people talk about discursive prayer, they're talking more about that type of meditation and logic and reason. Um so Teresa, the whole for us as Carmelites, the whole contemplation and mental prayer came about because Teresa said that there's some people who cannot pray that way. And so the best thing for the people that cannot pray that way is to just this mental prayer, this acts of kindness, this acts of tenderness. And her whole approach to prayer is that uh prayer is a is friendship. It's about a friendship with Christ. Uh and so Teresa and John talk about uh a relationship with the person of Jesus in terms and not so much a reflecting or using discursive reason and logic to think about the truths of the faith. For Teresa and John, it's more about being in a relationship with the truth itself, which is Jesus Christ. Um, Teresa talks about mental prayer being uh a relationship of friendship. John of the Cross talks about uh it being not just a friendship, but actually a romance. It's it's it's allowing yourself to fall in love with Jesus Christ and being his, becoming his. And so for John of the Cross, he says that mental prayer contemplation is a simple loving gaze between God and the soul. So those are so you know, I think different ways of approaching that relationship. I think they're all have to come to some sort of balance with each other, right? Uh, because John of the Cross tells us it's the entire person needs to be brought into the relationship with Christ. So my mind, my reason, my psyche, my affect, my intellect, everything has to be brought into that relationship. So there's there's room for it all. But I think for some people that are very head-centered, the affect is very difficult for them. And some people who are very affect-centered, um, the logic part is very hard for them to bring into prayer, but it it all has to come together.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, which is maybe why it's important to keep the realization of that this is not performative, like you don't have to do it a certain way or you're doing it wrong. Right. Right. Right. So how so how do we build, how do we develop that intimacy with God through prayer? Like because it's one thing to go, like, yeah, okay. Speaking of performance, like this this thing you're describing, like this loving gaze, this friendship, I want this. How do I do this? And maybe this is just kind of my analytical mind thinking, like, give me an instruction book or something, right? Like, give me step by step, and and maybe that's the wrong way. You're such an IT guy. Yeah, like that's just kind of where my brain goes. So I don't know, is there is there long or short, like, how do you get to there? How do you develop it?
SPEAKER_00:So short answer, practice. Longer answer. Um in any relationship, the first step is interest in the other person. So develop an interest. Whatever you think you know about God or Christ or the church, lay that aside and ask yourself about your interest in this relationship. Don't be afraid to become familiar with that massive book we call the Bible. I'm assuming a Catholic Bible, of course. So, one of the things I would say, like, if you want to enter into this relationship and show interest, I'd say first, you know, I would go like, you know, think about or remember what your favorite uh Bible stories are, your or those Bible stories that fascinate you. Reignite your interest or excitement about God and about learning about Christ and and enter into it this way. I think a lot of it has to be with interest. Am I interested? It's it's hard to commit to a relationship that you're not interested in. And so again, the first thing be like, okay, I need to be interested in why am I interested? Is there some what am I looking for? Examine and be objective about what your motives are and ask yourself, was this the relationship that I want, or do I want an in a relationship of intimacy, of friendship, right, with the Lord?
SPEAKER_04:Um so that kind of makes me wonder a lot of people enter into relationships for superficial reasons, right? Like that's a very handsome looking fella or something like that, right? Right. Um, and we're all humans, so I imagine that we probably for superficial reasons sometimes approach relationship with God or Jesus. So um so what's like a what's like a Carmelite way of of getting started moving past that beginning, maybe superficial nature that we sometimes bring to relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um both John and Teresa talk about being in love with God. Um but before we can fall in love with Christ, with God, with the Spirit, or with the Trinity, before we fall in love with the divine, we need to develop trust. Trust is essential in any relationship. So one of the things that you have to enter into and be assured of is that you have to trust that God sees your efforts in reaching out to him. You also have to trust that this effort on your part is endearing to him. He looks at you with kindness and tenderness, and that it is he himself, through his Holy Spirit, that is stirring your heart to search for him. You have to trust that he wants this relationship with you. That's essential. Because a lot of times we're afraid of approaching God. And for some lie or wound or temptation of the enemy, uh, we're afraid of approaching God when it is God who desires this relationship. One of the things that John of the Cross says, he says, if you desire if you desire God, know that he desires you all the more. And so trust, there's there, there needs to be this trust and this relationship, trust that he looks at you with kindness and tenderness. And if you fall and you stumble, and it's okay. He knows that. He knows your beginning, he knows, he knows your weaknesses, and he knows you have to work at this, he knows you need practice, and so he's he's understanding and kind and loving. So trust that. Trust that. And I think maybe part on your side, the side of the the prayer, be tender with yourself as well. Be kind and patient with yourself as well. Don't give up and keep trying and know that the Lord sees your efforts and that that is something that is very pleasing to him.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it it makes me think of um when little kids draw you a picture and you're like, what is this thing that you have just spent, I don't know, half an hour creating for me, and it it is like the strangest thing. But what do you do? You go put it up on the fridge, you know what I mean? Like, I love this and I'm proud of you. Thank you for this this thing. And I'm sure with the best, the most holy of us can muster, it looks like a little kid scribble to God, right? And he so it doesn't. He loves the effort and the intention, right? Yeah, and so I think that probably is a is a good kind of um thing to keep in mind when we are struggling, like you were saying, with that dryness or that emptiness or the feeling of lack of fruitfulness and and whatnot, is just knowing that that effort is good. Right. That's what he looks at. And when you were talking about discursive prayer, um it was making me think of Lectio Lectio Divina. Um it seems like it's that's something that's kind of part of all this mental practice too, and those two kind of intersect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so when we practice lectio, uh part of that method, uh if you go back and listen to that episode, uh, is there's this reflection or consideration of the scripture verse that has called our attention. So sitting with that scripture verse is very much uh a practice of meditation, a practice of mental prayer. You're you're making yourself present to the word, you're allowing the word to be present to you. So that is very much part of a mental prayer. I think for uh for us in mental prayer, for Carmelites, where you do an hour in the morning and the hour in the afternoon, it's that reflective part that is extended, right? It's just that's where you sit just thinking about the presence or allowing the presence to manifest itself in you within that presence and what that does to you in your life and your commitment to that relationship. So there's that, right? Um, so I think that's important that we remember that. That in Lexio, uh we already have some introduction to mental prayer and meditation, and I think it's a matter of just expanding that time.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:So because I see how long we've been talking now, it's about time to probably wrap this up. Um, I did, I looked up to see how many we have nine different episodes that have to do with prayer or relationship. Um, so there's a lot of them out there, so I'll definitely go link those in in the the show notes um for for everyone to to uh listen to or listen again to if you've already heard them. Um, but maybe could you uh could you help kind of leave us with some reflection questions? Um, like something for us to consider now that we can maybe take into our own prayer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh a couple of things. Um I would say if I am practicing prayer, if I am in a prayerful relationship with the Lord already, one of the things I would ask is, where in my life is God inviting me into deeper silence, into a deeper interiority or relationship with him? Another question would be, do I come to prayer expecting something or am I simply spending time with him? Am I simply being uh in him, in his presence, right? Another question would be where does where is silence in my life? Where does silence play in my relationship with God? Where does what is the role of silence in my life period? Is there silence in my life? Another question would be when I do pray, when I'm in the relationship of prayer, is my prayer more of a dialogue or more of a monologue? Am I spending a lot of time internally verbalizing, right, and speaking or repeating prayers, or is there times of quiet and just sort of sitting in the presence in that love that he offers me? Um another question would be like, do I allow myself to use scripture or rosary or other aids or or a holy card or crucifix to help me in my distraction or my restlessness? Do do I allow, do I give myself permission to use those aids to focus my attention on that relationship and keep me focused? Those are some things to think about.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the dialogue monologue is a good one for me because a lot of times um I know if I'm talking, I'm not listening. And so it's it's making that that dedicated effort to listen and to be receptive, not just to be because God wants me to give him everything that's on my heart, on my mind. Right, yes, he also wants me to receive his love, so I have to be receptive too. Yeah. All right. Well, okay, before we go, again, I'd like to thank everyone for their continued prayers and supports, especially if uh for the friars of the province of Saint Therese. Or um Saint Yeah, Therese. Sorry. I was gonna say, wait, no, it's Teresa. Wait, what's your province? Therese. Therese. I don't know why it's so hard for me to keep straight in my brain. But anyway, here in the Saint Pro province of St. Terez here in the United States. Um, so you friars, you've set up a way people can uh support y'all financially with online donations, and you can find that link in the show notes if um you're joining us through a podcast app or in the description in uh if you're listening to us on YouTube. And you can do a one-time donation or a recurring monthly donation if you're feeling so inclined. Um uh another great way to support y'all is to uh for free is following us and subscribing, leaving comments, reviews, sharing the podcast with others. So um it's called an analogy. Help me support, yeah, help me support them uh first and foremost with prayers, prayers, prayers, prayers. Yes, please. And then consider if you can supporting them financially. So thanks, Father. Um I'm looking forward to this, uh getting just deeper and into these kind of teachings and our future episodes. This is I love this. This is a good episode, and I think there's probably a reason we have nine other episodes on prayer room relationship because it's just beautiful. So thank you for this.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. God bless everybody. All right, God bless.
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