Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection (Season 4 Episode 4)

We trace Brother Lawrence’s path from wounded soldier to humble Carmelite cook and explore how he learned to make prayer and work one seamless act of love. We share his hard decade of scruples, his breakthrough into peace, and practical ways to cultivate tenderness for Christ in daily tasks.

• Brother Lawrence’s early life, war wounds, and spiritual awakening
• Entering Carmel as a lay brother and serving in a large kitchen
• Ten years of interior struggle and the turn to peace
• Practicing presence as affective love, not a technique
• Service, community, and guarding against “me and Jesus” isolation
• Love transforming chores, parenting, and professional work
• A simple weekly practice: examine tenderness for Christ and return gently

Please consider supporting the Discalced Carmelites of the Semi-Province of St. Thérèse. Links are in the show notes. Pray for us that the Holy Spirit gives us the time and grace to cover these topics well.

Transcript

Hellos, Weather, And Coffee

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and thanks for listening. If you like My Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us if you haven't already done so. And if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. Good icy afternoon, Father.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Good afternoon. Cold afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

It is very cold. It's 24.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

It's 20 here. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Is it? Well, if it makes you feel any better, I have a friend who um is actually he's been my friend since kindergarten. Uh shout out to Jeff Mylam. But anyway, today's his birthday and um turns the big 4-3 today. But anyway, yeah, happy birthday. Uh I messaged him this morning, just you know, happy birthday and stuff. And he goes, Oh man, thanks. It's that's very kind. He goes, it's minus eight here in Chicago. And so he had woken up and his wife had made a lovely fire in the living room and stuff like that. And it so I guess it could be worse. Could be really, really, really cold. Well, okay. And I've got my I'm on decaf coffee, but it's warm, and that's all that matters. But your coffee is not decaf. You drink non-decaf coffee all the way till midnight.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah. With a uh to treat myself, I put a big t tablespoon of abuelita Mexican chocolate in it just to make it special. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

That's uh it's a that's a cafe mocha. There you go. Or cafe mocha. I don't know, whatever. All right. Brother Lawrence Brah Lawrence.

Discovering Brother Lawrence

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Or brah? Brah what how do the kids say it? Bruh. Brah Lawrence. So yeah, so we've been wanting to talk about Brother Lawrence for a while, which I'm excited. I think. Yes, sorry. I have. Because what's funny is um I somehow didn't even know who the dude was. And then um I stumbled across his the little book that's like the collection of his like um letters and stuff like that, the practicing the presence of God, right? And I was like, oh, that's so neat. And it's like $2.37. So I like bought a little pocket version, and I was going on a walk with Betty and we were talking about it. And she was like, wait, what? I just bought it too. And we literally bought it at the same time, completely separated, like not talking about it together, just randomly um kind of bought it. But anyway, it's a great, great little book. Um I kind of I don't know, no spoilers. My personal opinion. Um I see I I can kind of see why he's probably not sainted, only because you've got such carmelite giants. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's very it's his he's it's a very humble thing, um, his writings. So but I don't know. I don't know. What do you um like when you think about Brother Lawrence? What do you think of first? Like, what strikes you first? Not like not just even necessarily like what he taught or what he wrote about, but like the person, you know, who he was.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

The first thing whenever anybody mentions him, I'm

Why God Chooses The Humble

SPEAKER_00 4:10

always um it always registers one surprise that anybody would mention him because hardly anybody knows who he is. So first I'm surprised that somebody would even know who he is. Secondly, um I was very surprised during my my own formation to find out uh he's very, very popular uh amongst Protestant circles as well. Uh a lot of Protestants know him. That surprised me too.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

I think that's how I stumbled across him, was listening to some Protestant guy talking about him.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah. And uh probably thirdly, is uh again, his the person, then when it comes to the person, a very a very, very humble lay brother who lots of people sought out for spiritual advice, for spiritual direction.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

So he's not a priest, no, he's not a bishop, he's not a nut, he's just a lay brother. Yeah. The the kitchen cook. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

But it was a large monastery, so he was very busy.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah. What do you think? I don't know. Why do you think God chooses people, right? It's kind of funny. Why do you think God chose the guy in the kitchen to kind of I don't know, touch in such a way where he felt like called to write these kinds of things down and be influential?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Well, I think probably the way that he gave himself to God. I think I mean he gave himself to God before he got to the kitchen, so I think it's just where he wound up really didn't matter to him. I mean, that's how um surrendered he was to God, right? And his relationship with God didn't matter where he was, it was he had a uh an understanding of his own relationship to God. So where he would find himself, he was going to be himself. So I think it's it's a very um beautiful life. I mean, he was a simple brother as well. So uh I think that's I think it's it's not unusual for that to happen. I mean, um when our lady appeared to Bernadette, uh very simple, simple girl. Uh when our Our Lady appeared to Juan Diego, very simple, simple man. Uh when our lord appeared to um Anne of St. Bartholomew, uh a very simple shepherdess. So yeah, there's uh there's something there. Uh there's something impact in fact um we were just I was just talking to uh Father Paul. I was just talking to Father Paul the other day. Uh we're talking about this on our trip down to Victoria, how this is so very much part of God's uh plan, you know, to choose the humble, to choose Israel, the the the smallest of all. I don't even want you you can't even call it a nation back then. It was just the the smallest of a tribe, right? The most unknown tribe. Uh so there's something there about God always choosing choosing the most humble to to

Who Was Brother Lawrence

SPEAKER_00 7:30

let his power shine through.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Speaking of Israel, yeah, quick quick squirrel kind of moment. I was watching this um documentary on um I I can't remember if it was a I I it had to have been about Israel, but um I don't remember the exact topic, but there was this um it was either an obelisk from Egypt or some some kind of you know rock monumental kind of thing like Egypt does, but it was listing all the people, excuse me, it was listing all these people, um, or groups, I guess that they had gone to war with, or I don't know, something like that. You know how like kings would write down all their triumphs and stuff. So it could have been something like that. But anyway, what was interesting is that it's listing all these nations, these kingdoms and their kings and stuff like that, but then it gets to Israel and it lists them as a people instead. So it like it was very interesting how even they recognize that they don't have a king, they're not this great nation or something like that, they're just a a people.

unknown 8:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

So anyway, interesting scroll. Yeah, yeah. So okay, uh, brother Lawrence. Uh I don't know, tell us teach us, teach us about him, right? Like he's I I think like he's one of the things, one of the quotes that he said that really kind of stands out to me. So I'm I really kind of want to get some history, some like knowledge about him as a person for me. But he said, like, the time of the time of business does not with me differ from the time of prayer. And this is the way he just like incorporated being with God into every moment of every day. So teach us about this guy.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah. He that sort of is a sort of a summation of his attitude into in his relationship with God. Um the the work that everybody people, that every every people, everybody people, there you go. Not enough coffee yet. The work that everyone knows is entitled uh The Practice of the Presence of God. And he speaks about this uh ability to be able to keep God present throughout the day, right? To be, we would say mindfulness, a mindfulness of God throughout the day. So a little bit about um Brother Lawrence. First, I want to say that the Carmelites uh came to France in so let me see the Carmelites received the rule around 1207, they're made legal uh or uh recognized like in uh 1215. Um then we have the Fourth Lateran Council, uh and so the the order had to be sort of become slowly becomes a mendicant order uh over time. They arrive in Paris uh around 12, I want to say the middle of the century. Like it's not 1250, a little bit earlier than 1250, but around there they get to Paris and establish a house. Um then you have different, as usual, we have wars and wars and wars and kingdoms and kings and all this other stuff goes on, affecting everything. Um and no separation of church and state. Yeah, there's again, there's no separation of church and state, yeah. Then after the Protestant revolution or revolt, uh then there we have kings that are Protestant versus kings that are Catholic versus people that don't want a Catholic king or don't want a uh Protestant king. Anyway, all that happens. Then we have the reform of Teresa and John in the 16th century Spain. So um the Teresian Carmel or the Discales Carmelite Order, the nuns arrived first in Paris or brought to Paris by Henry IV, who was a Protestant king, then became a Catholic king, not because he believed, but because he wanted the throne. Uh in fact, he had his famous quote, is his famous quote is Paris is worth a mass. So he'd be willing to be a Catholic just to be able to get on the throne. So that's how

War, Wounds, And Awakening

SPEAKER_00 12:20

that's how convicted he was about uh the faith.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

But anyway, yeah, um yeah, maybe maybe there's something there we can talk about in another episode.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yeah, write that down, make a make a note on the side somewhere. Uh and then um, so the nuns come first, and the friars come later, and they establish a house in Paris. It's a very big house. And so this is this is eventually who uh Lawrence will come to know. But first, a little bit about Brother Lawrence. He was born in uh 1614, and he was born Nicholas Herman, and he was baptized in the village of Hermanille, Lorraine, France. Um, and it was at that time in history, it was not necessarily what we call the the the kingdom of France, it was part of the Holy Roman Empire. It was the the Grand Ducky, ducky, Grand Duchy, uh Grand Ducky, the Grand Duchy uh under the Holy Roman Empire and was ruled by the Dukes of the House of Lorraine. And at that at the time that uh Nicholas Herman is born, it's ruled by Duke Henry II of Lorraine. And so it's this territory is between the Holy Roman Empire and what we would what was understood back then as the Kingdom of France. Uh France took it over that this territory in 1766. Because he lived in such a rural area, we really don't know very much about his early life. There's no records in terms of education or anything like that. We really don't know anything about his early life. All we do know that is that he apparently was raised in a very religious environment. Um and then we're not sure exactly how or what how his catech catechism or how he was catechized and how he learned the faith. But he does talk about, excuse me, he does talk about something happened to him when he was 18, is in 1632. He in some winter, hello, in some winter, he was looking out and and he sees this tree, and this tree is you know obviously completely bare. It's the winter, and he starts thinking about the fact that it's going to come to life again in the spring. And all of a sudden, as he reflects on this, something moves him greatly in terms of he experiences in a very deep way uh God's presence and God's providence, the God as the source of life. And so how God is continually revealing himself in the world, and he sees this revelation in this uh tree that is deep in deep sleep that will wake up, and so this is a huge thing for him, it's a very big religious awakening, we would say, or a consideration or even contemplation already, that he sees this and this is something that guides him for the rest of his life. So this is something that that stays with him. He was only 18. So then, as I said before, where he was born is on the border between the French uh monarchy and the Holy Roman Empire. So the this area, Lorraine, was involved in the a third the Thirty Years' War from 1618 to 1648. And there were the estimate, the estimates as to people that died from the 30 Years' War ranges from 4.5 million to 8 million soldiers and civilians that died from not just the battle, but the famine and the diseases that come from that war. So that's a lot of people, right? It's a lot, it's a lot of people. So this war, this 30 years' war, was centered around the Catholic monarchs and the Protestant monarchs and these uh dynastic struggles for these thrones.

Entering Carmel And Early Trials

SPEAKER_00 16:30

So Nicholas joins, like a good patriot, joins the army of the Grand Ducky uh Ducky, uh the Grand Duchy. And this led to a dark period of his life. And he doesn't really tell us anything about it, except that he all he says is that he's very, very sorrowful over this period of his life. He expresses great regret over the sins he's committed. So we don't know what, I don't know if it's the people that he uh he killed or things that he saw or things that he did, or he found himself, you know, maybe engaging that that beastly part of himself to survive. We're we're not sure. We do know that he was wounded um in 1635 uh in a battle over Ramberviales, which the Duke was trying to recover, again, struggling for castles and territory. So he was brought back to his native village to to recover.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Um I think the injury, whatever injury he suffered, made his later duties as like a cook and stuff really difficult for him. Yes. And so yeah, he was just like and I I'm sure lots of people have been in this boat where it's like I can't escape my past. Like I'm like my injury, I can't get over my injury, I can't get over the things I've done. Like it's just a constant reminders kind of thing. And yeah, like he doesn't. I remember when I was reading the little book. Um that stood out to me too. Like he he never says like what it was, but you can tell it really bothered him.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, it was continue a continual reminder of whatever it was.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Um, so when he's recovering back at home out in the country, uh he's he meets some hermit. And again, we're not we're not sure about the dates and uh all the the data that we would want to know, all the facts, the details, yeah. So he meets some hermit and it inspires Nicholas to try to live like a hermit, but it's not possible for him. Uh again, we're not told why. He just says it's not something that he can do. Um, and so he continues to desire to to live a more um I was gonna say Christian life, well, Catholic life, but that's all there was, right? So he this is what he's trying to do. Yeah, and we're not told why, but he moves to Paris. Um, I don't know if it's for him family matters or health matters or whatever, but he winds up moving to Paris. Uh and maybe it might be looking for work. So he goes to Paris and he works for a very uh prominent gentleman in Paris, and so he's a servant. Um but again, he didn't really care for this. It wasn't something that he wanted, it was just something he was using to survive. Um and it's during his time here in Paris and he encounters the large community of Discalced Carmelite friars at the monastery of Saint Joseph, and it had been recently consecrated, it was consecrated in 1625. Um, so then through through his contact with the friars uh there in the Paris monastery, and because of this community, Nicholas then feels attracted to discern with them uh to live a life with them, and he enters the monastery as a lay brother in 1640 uh when he's around 26, and he was given the name Lawrence of the Resurrection. Uh, he made his solemn vows in 1642, and so back then lay brothers had no vote in what we call the conventual chapter, that is the the meeting of the community that uh to vote for things to do in the in the house or to vote for who's going to be prior, who's you know, the voting for different offices and stuff, right? So he didn't have a vote or a voice because he was a lay brother. Only the priests uh or the choir, the choir friars had uh voice. Um, so they didn't participate either in the divine office uh because most lay brothers did know how to read. So um, and so the what the lay brothers would do, and the lay sisters in the cloister, what they would do is they would they would uh pray the rosary. There's so many rosaries for law, so many rosaries for vespers, so many rosaries for office of readings, so many

Ten Years Of Scruples And Peace

SPEAKER_00 21:05

rosaries for for component, right? That's what the rosary was used for. Uh but the the lay brothers were always the backbone of the community. They were the ones that actually they did all the work, they did all the heavy lifting to maintain the life of the community. So you had you had them, they were working in the in the orchards, they're working in the fields, they were somebody that's administrator of the house, you had somebody that's administrator of the kitchen. And then this is what Brother Lawrence uh did. He was uh put in charge of the kitchen. And the lay brothers back then, there was no con celebration of masses back then. The brothers also served as acolytes and servers for the priests because each priest would celebrate their own private mass. That was before uh uh a con celebration was allowed. So this was this was basically his life. This is what he did, and he this is what he discerned in his his.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah. Let me ask you a question. Like what do you think it is about his life before he entered Carmel that's that's important like to shaping his spirituality? Because of course we don't have lots of details, like, but what do you think it was?

SPEAKER_00 22:23

I think um there is a deep desire to and the religious figures uh will express this in different ways. Um there's a deep desire to know the truth in its fullness, uh which is the same thing as looking for God, right? So God is all truth, all beauty, uh all perfection. Um he whatever it was that he experienced, that first initial religious awakening, I think that never really let go of him. And I think he continuously felt um as Augustine would say, restless. His heart was restless, and so he was just kept looking and searching for this relationship with God, this deeper relationship, this hunger and thirst that he knew that only the infinite could uh provide for him. So I think that is what really what drove him. I think um continuously listening to that call, uh that itch, that thirst, that hunger, uh, and not getting confused uh and trying to fill it with finite temporal things, but to know that it was uh a call to something transcendent. I think that really is what drove him.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah. I mean, because once once upon a time, you were a man outside of Carmel, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:54

And people forget that I wasn't born in a monastery.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah. And uh and you got you know, you got sucked in. Um, do you do you have a a tree moment? Like uh where you're you because I know like I know you, I know there's things that you aspired to in life before, but like was there any very specific moment that you can think of where you're just like yeah, I mean I I I would rather not talk about them, but yeah, there are there are there are moments in my life that um I would say significant religious um moments uh going going way back into even to my childhood.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

That's sort of like hmm, there's an attraction, there's something there, there is something there, there is something, there's a I would say like an intuition towards something, a transcendence, uh uh an awareness that there is something greater, uh, something beyond um the everyday life or or the everyday experience, and to sort of be aware of that and

Consolations And Constant Presence

SPEAKER_00 25:10

want that and desire that and try to move towards that. So yeah, I think yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Kind of like a seed, I guess. Um I I like uh you were saying is this thing that kind of grabs hold of you and doesn't let go. Um it's like it's I understand what you're saying because I would even say, like for myself growing up, when I was very young, I I remember watching the priest going, that would be cool. I could be a priest or something, you know? Like there's something, an attraction, yeah, and then that attraction kind of colors or flavors all of your life experiences. And so when whenever you experience these things that are so grandiose and huge and all-consuming, um, eventually you move past them and you go, Oh, well, it wasn't as big as I thought it was. Right. For like a lot of a lot of people, it's like high school sports and stuff like that, right? And then you get to the next thing and the next thing, and you're always left like that it's flavoring again your your recoloring your experience to where you're just like, There's gotta be something else. Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Maybe the next thing will be it.

unknown 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah, yeah. And so then eventually you kind of come to this realization of what what it is in God that you're longing for, and you're like, and then you're probably scared. You're like, I don't want to do that, right? So no, that's interesting. It's good. That's good stuff. All right, so then what happened next?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Okay, so um, again, a very interesting man. Um parts of his life are very he's very again, he's very private about uh in other parts he's willing to be more uh explicit. So his he's willing to he's willing to confess how difficult the transition is for himself. So his religious life was not easy. Again, he had his physical consequences of his injuries, right? That didn't make life easy for himself, probably was in pain most of the time. Um but he doesn't explain why he had a hard time uh with religious life, probably growing up, entering as as an adult man, right? Uh it's kind of hard to sort of submit your will and uh try to be docile and allow yourself to be formed. So I'm sure he had a hard time with that. Uh, but he does share uh some of his difficulties in a letter to a priest. Uh so I'm not sure, I don't remember who he wrote this to. Um, but he he does say, um, I will admit that during the first 10 years of his religious life, I suffered a great deal. The apprehensions that I did not belong to God as I wished, my past sins always before my eyes, and the lavish graces God was giving me were the sum and substance of all my woes. So he feels blessed and he feels guilty that he's blessed. Yeah. Right? So that's part of his struggle. So during this period, he's he goes, he continues, during this period, I fell often, but I got up just as quickly. It seemed to me that all creatures, reason, and God himself were against me, and that faith alone was on my side. I was sometimes troubled by thoughts that this was the result of my presumption, in that I pretended to be all at once, where others were able to arrive only with difficulty. Other times I thought I was willingly damning myself, that there was no salvation for me. When I accepted the fact that I might spend my life suffering from these troubles and anxieties, which in no way diminished the trust I had in God and served only to increase my faith, I suddenly found myself changed all at

Service, Community, And Direction

SPEAKER_00 29:20

once. And my soul, until that time, always in turmoil turmoil, experienced a deep inner peace as if it had found its center and place of rest. So I think that's very interesting that he is so he suffers a great deal for 10 years. I mean, he's struggling to maintain himself or to live his religious life or whatever, and yet at the same time, it's interesting the way he separates that, like, but my faith was still strong, right? Uh, so he sees this conflict with himself. It made me think of um St. Paul, right? Uh, why do I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things I do want to do? Uh so it made me think of that. Like, there is this awareness of this conflict between um, we would say uh his habitual way of life or uh and his the life of grace that he feels called to, or the life of friendship uh with Christ that he feels called to. So he he sees these two opposing forces in his life, but he doesn't despair. Uh in fact, he continuously trusts in his faith in God, in God's uh love for him. And yet it's not until he accepts the fact of his conflict, right, that he comes to peace. I think that very is a very, very interesting insight into um that struggle. I think everybody struggles with God. Everybody wrestles with God, whether they know it or not. Um and if you're not wrestling with God, then you need to do some thinking then. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Well, and and if there, if I think a lot of people wrestle with a lot of people who are mindful of their pasts or their sinful habits or addictions or whatever, and they're wanting to move on from these things. I think a lot of people struggle with kind of like what he's saying. It's like everything is against me. Like, why do I keep doing the things like you're saying before Paul? Why do I keep doing the things that I don't want to do? Right. Right. And there's another quote that he has um where he says, When I fail in my duty, and I read it, I readily acknowledge it, saying, I am used to doing so. I shall never do otherwise. And if I'm um if I'm left to myself, right, and if I fail not, then I give God thanks, acknowledging that it came from him. Right. And so that that kind of thing, uh, that that realization of like, well, I obviously I need a savior, you know, like what should I what would I expect otherwise? I'm not God, so I should be I should be struggling. Right. And it kind of accepts it and it helps to move on.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah, it's part of part of the the nature, right? Kind of accepting the the consequences of the fall and being able to say okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

So um Yeah, it's not an excuse. No, no, it doesn't mean just keep doing the thing, it's just like every time you find yourself in that moment where you're struggling with this thing again, you're just like you shouldn't be surprised, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah. So I think, yeah, I think he's he he's a great um inspiration in terms of really um accepting yourself. And by that I mean being apathetic or indifferent about your your journey, but like, okay, this this it this is something that a lot of people have a hard time with, and that is like I need to be healed. Uh uh why why am I surprised, you know, that I am broken and wounded when I know that I need a redeemer, I need

Presence Without Turning It Into Technique

SPEAKER_00 33:10

the divine physician. And so, you know, I need to just stop acting like I'm I'm okay, and just really ask the Lord, I really need, I really need your help. I really need to be healed, I really need this sanation and this this this blessing from you. And to be okay with that, to be okay that you're what is it? Um the recent singer, forget what her name is, and that starts with a D. Uh, is it Demi Lovato? Maybe. Um, it's okay that I'm not okay, something like that. That's a pop song not too long ago.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

I don't know. I've never heard it, but I'll take your word on it. Okay. Or full.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

I don't listen to pop music much much, but I did somebody send it to me like, oh yeah, this is because I'm always telling people give yourself permission to learn. It's okay that you're not okay. So that somebody that oh, somebody heard your your quote and they made it into a song. So they sent it to me.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

So yeah. No, I think I I he this this kind of theme in his writings was very insightful for me too. So I think it's it's definitely one of those things where it's I think um it would do a lot of people a lot of good to to get to this point of knowing that they recognizing where they need healing and um not beating themselves up about it, right? But really inviting God to come heal them. Yeah. Alright, so what happens next? What happens next?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Well, because he joins, and then what he's well, he's there, he and he's there for 10 years, and then after ten years, and he comes to this place of uh peace, his 10-year trial, he he comes to this place of self-acceptance and peace. And it apparently it's something that he centers himself on or becomes his center, I should say, and never leaves him again for the next 30 years. He does uh share this with a a letter that he sends to a religious sister, and he speaks of himself, but he speaks of himself in the third person.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yeah, that tickled me too. It's like all of his letters to people, he's like, uh, I know this guy.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

I know this guy, but yeah, he doesn't want to because he's humble, right? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, this is the this is what he writes to this religious sister. He is now so accustomed to this divine presence that he receives constant help in every situation. For about thirty years, his soul has been enjoying such great and continual inner consolations that he can hardly contain them. If occasionally he becomes too forgetful of this divine presence, God makes himself known immediately in his soul to call him back to himself. This often happens when he is most engaged in his activities. He responds with complete fidelity to this inner call, either by lifting up his heart toward God, by gently and lovingly turning inward, or by a few words that love formulates during these encounters. These experiences make him so certain that God is always in the depths of his soul that he has no doubts about it, no matter what he may do or what may happen. And so this is something that I think is interesting because as the as the steward of the kitchen, and there is a monastery of somewhere between 130 and 150 friars, he had to manage it very, very he had to manage buying the groceries, managing the kitchen, managing the cooks, uh keeping track of all the money that is spent for what's spent and keeping records of all this stuff, right? Uh accounting for every penny, which is you know, all these things that so he has a lot to do. And while he's doing all this, you have people coming to the kitchen to come talk to him. You have bishops coming, you have priests coming, you

Love Transforms Ordinary Work

SPEAKER_00 37:30

have people coming to him for spiritual direction in the midst of his duties, right? And he's so he's doing lots and lots and lots. So this uh the future biographer uh of Brother Lawrence, uh, it was uh Reverend Joseph of Beaufort, the vicar general of uh Bishop Antoine de Nouals, um often consulted uh Brother Lawrence and recalled that this mystic cook told him during his first visit, the first time he goes to visit and asks for spiritual direction, he says, God gives light to those who have an authentic desire to be with him. And that if I had this intention, this Father Joseph, that he could I could go ask to see him whenever I wanted without fear of bothering him. And if not, if this was not the intention, then I ought not to come to see him at all. If you're not serious about this journey, that just don't bother me. So uh you're very uh in a very uh frank um country bumpkin kind of way, you're like, you know, don't waste my time, dude.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

So yeah, it's funny when um when you were uh reading the the quote just a minute ago about how um you because he's speaking in the third person, but basically where he's he's enjoying God's continual in uh you know company kind of thing, um how God makes himself known to him and calls back to him and and you know is talking with him kind of thing. Um movie nerd alert. Um for some reason it made me think of the Irish guy from Braveheart, or was it the Irish guy who's talking to, he's like Steven's my name, and he's like talking to God the whole time. It's my island. Yeah, he was kind of touched in the head too. So um anyway, that's it randomly popped into my head. Yeah, that kind of uh frankness, right? Uh uh the continual presence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you were saying you were telling me the other day uh Poplios, he's thinking about writing a foreword for practicing.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

They found some new. I think they found some new um letters, some more information about him. They found it in a recent uh discovery of a transcript's some 16th century uh or maybe late 15th century transcript. They they found this transcript in this collected uh spiritual writing or spiritual authors, these book, and they go like, oh, there's more, there's more. And so uh yeah, Pope Leo is writing uh an introduction or a foreword to the new edition of Practice of the Presence of God that's going to be published, and I guess be adding more information or more letters or more something, whatever new information they have. So that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yeah, I well, I I I want to tell everyone just go pick up the book because, like I said, it's like two dollars and thirty-seven cents. You could probably find the whole thing online for free if you really wanted to. Um, but it's it's worth the five dollars you spend on it just to like and it's not very hard to read,

Guarding Against “Me And Jesus” Only

SPEAKER_02 41:20

it's not long to read. No, um, I really think everybody should just go pick up a copy of it and then give it away as a gift, right? Um, to somebody who that you think would benefit from it too. All right, so uh, brother Lawrence, so it's it's the presence of God, right? Practicing the presence of God. So, like, how would you, Father Stephen, define practicing the presence of God, God, right? Just like without turning it into a thing to do, right? Not a technique. It's just what is it? What is it to practice the presence of God?

SPEAKER_00 41:56

One of the things that struck me um about Teresa and St. Teresa of Avula, Saint Teresa of Jesus, the reformer of the order. Um one of the things that uh struck me, and it always it always sort of like I always go back to this phrase that she uses, and she says, I began to have feelings of tenderness for him, meaning Christ. And so I think that's what the key is. I think the key is um engaging our affect in our relationship with the Lord to make it a more of a personal relationship, and so the practice of the presence of God is really turning to him throughout the day. I mean, when when we're in love with someone, when we fall in love, um we think of that person all the time, they're always on our mind, uh, they're always on our heart. We're wondering how they are, what they're doing, all these things. They become there is a tenderness in our heart, uh, there is a devotion in our heart for that person. I think, and this is what we need to engage in our relationship with the Lord. Can we give ourselves permission to be um infatuated, well, beyond infatuation, to be in love uh with the Lord? Can I give myself permission to cultivate a tenderness for him? Right. And so to turn to him throughout the day. And again, I don't want to turn into a technique like, okay, so every day at noon, you know, stop and take in and like, no, it is okay. If that helps, that's that's great. That's the discipline that you need. But the real I think the real key is again as Teresa talks about, uh cultivating tenderness. Can I give myself permission to be vulnerable to him, to, to desire him, right? To to think of him, to think of him throughout the day. And and if you just think of those uh times and situations or relationships where you have been in love and this person is so important to you, um this the question is can I have the same kind of consideration for Christ? Can I continuously think of him? Can I continuously turn to him? Can I continuously speak to him? Can I continuously um give myself permission to desire him, to desire to be with him, to to be uh in his presence, uh, to to feel that comfort, that warmth, and that uh intimacy and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

So yeah, and it it makes me think, um, because Teresa talks about like that friendship with God, right? Like you're saying that tenderness, just spending time together, and and

Intentionality, Tenderness, And Practice

SPEAKER_02 45:10

then so for Brother Lawrence, he a lot of times as in his his writings he's describing he's he's spending this time with God while he's working, right? So there's this there there's something interior happening while he's doing his work. And so I don't know, help help me understand maybe what that what that is, because it's like I can't go say like I'm gonna go grocery shopping for God. No. And like it's it's my time with God or something, right? So like what's the interior thing that's actually going on?

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I think it goes back to the same thing. It goes back to this idea of there is this continual interior consideration of that person. No matter what you're doing, there is sort of underneath it, there is the thought of this person that you're in love with, this person that you you care for, right? And so whether it whether you're driving to work, whether you're at the Kroger, wherever it is that you find yourself, uh that person is not absent from you. That person is in your heart, that person is with you, you're carrying that person with you in your thoughts, right? It may not be at the top of your immediate awareness, but they're there, right? You you're you are aware that this is someone that you are continuously considering. I think, and I think that's what the practice of the presence is. It's a a continual awareness of that love that exists, right? That that desire that is there, that desire for transcendence, that desire for intimacy, that desire for uh vulnerability, right? Uh and I think that's I think that that in its essence, I think that's what it is. And you can't you can't well you can't translate that into a technique or method because that's we're talking about a relationship. You can't you can't do that. I mean you I guess some people do, but that's the reason why things don't work then.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Yeah, something that um I just had a thought and I lost it. Um I lost it. Well, I I have another thought. I don't I maybe it'll come back to me the the the first thing, but something that that I think oh it came back to me. Okay, yeah, so it's like that awareness. Um imagine if I and this is not quite as loving of a of a like relationship kind of loving thought, but it's like if you were in a room and you're there was not a lot of oxygen in the room, you would start being very aware of how much oxygen is or is not in the room, right? Right. Um and so it's just that um now to to kind of parallel that with God, when you realize that he's with you and you need him more than you need oxygen, it kind of changes your reality. Oh yeah, definitely. So obviously in a much more loving, less dramatic, and scary way than running out of oxygen. But anyway, um the other the so the other thought that I had was um I can see a risk here with Brother Lawrence, and this is maybe why he's popular with some Protestants, um, because it's like there like he's he is his prayer is in the kitchen with God, not at church. Like you see a lot of, I guess not like there's high Protestants and low Protestants, I don't know how else to say it, but it's like there's no great big church, there's no formal structure, there's no whatever, it's my personal relationship with Jesus, and that's all that matters kind of thing, right? So maybe you can help us like how do we avoid falling into that?

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Oh, yeah, and I think I think I'm glad you bring that up because it is sort of taking taking him out of uh the context of his religious life. I mean, as a religious person, community life is essential and the service of others is essential. And so it's not just uh me and Jesus, but it is my relationship with Jesus within the community of faith. Um so I think one of the the the questions or or the challenges is how is your relationship with the Lord affecting the way that you relate to others? How is it affecting your um understanding of what community is, right? Um so I think that's very important that that is understood that his his relationship with with God, his relationship with Christ, his continual consideration of that loving uh presence within himself while he while he is continues to do his work and his duties. Um I think the lesson is that my duties and my responsibilities don't define me. What defines me is my relationship with Christ, and that is what's most important. I think that is something to ask, right? Do I define myself by my job, by my uh socioeconomic bracket, by my political stance, by my ideological stance, by my uh being orthodox, whatever that means now in most people's heads, uh being whatever it is, right? Uh is it about those things, or is it about my relationship to Jesus Christ and how this relationship with Jesus Christ opens me, or should open me, uh, to the neighbor, uh whoever that happens to be. And again, this sort of bringing in this whole the parable of the of the Good Samaritan. Sometimes the neighbor is somebody that is inconvenient uh to me and for me, but I'm still called to be loving uh to them. And so I think the way Lawrence did it was uh again, all these people come to him because there is a very straightforward understanding of the call to service, right, to community because because of my relationship with Christ, that the the consequence of my relationship with Christ is service, and I think a lot of people saw that, and it was a a service not like the not like the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal sons, but like the father of the sons, uh continuing loving and being forgiving and patient and and understanding.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Yeah, yeah, I think, and I think so there's something about Brother Lawrence. This is I literally like I'll say it again, I think everyone just go by the thing because there his writings. Well, one of the times he's talking about himself in the third person, he's writing to whomever, um, he says about himself that he regards not the greatness of the work but the love with which it's performed, right? Because God loves him so much, so he has it like he's called to perform then whatever the act is, cleaning the pots and pans, buying the groceries, he's struggling with his injury, whatever it is, to do it with such a great love for God that it transforms the act that he's doing into something greater than the act that he's doing.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Right, and this and this is very much um John of the Cross, where there is no love, put in love and you will draw out love. I mean, that is that's pure John of the Cross. So his his yeah, his his translation of that into into his into his daily life, right? So that's I think that's that's marvelous that he he's capable of doing that, right? And I think Therese St. Therese too brings in that idea of John and idea of Lawrence about it's not it's not the act, it's the love with which I perform this act. That is most important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Yeah, and say that I think there's something there for all like the busy moms and dads out there, right? Like you got four kids, you gotta make, you know, 24 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, whatever, right? Like you gotta do all these things, and it's not just it's not that you're it w when you can find a way, like Brother Lawrence did, to transform the it's not just the act, it's the like you're saying, the love with which you perform the act. And it's not even necessarily just directed toward the other person, like your your kids and all the laundry you're washing for everybody and all that stuff. It's not just that, but it's you're you're directing it to God, right? If you can do that, I think it will be extremely fruitful in all of our lives. And it also makes me think the same thing when it comes to living like a sacramental and liturgical life, right? If I'm approaching all these things like just something I have to do versus doing them with such great love because of my relationship with God, it just changes everything, right? It's good stuff, yeah. Intentional, brother Lawrence.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

What is your intention, right? We talk about intentionality.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

Yeah. Okay, so what's something you could everyone can go practice this week? How would you no, and and it's funny, it's it's always it's always funny because it's like we we don't want to turn it into a technique, but we want to we want to take what we learn, we want to internalize it, and we want to do something with it, not just go put it on the shelf.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

I would say during your prayer time, during time before the Lord, whether it's before the Blessed Sacrament or whether it's in your prayer corner or whether when you're taking a contemplative, reflective walk, whatever, just examine your heart and ask yourself, is there tenderness in my heart for Christ or for God?

Closing Blessings And Support

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Is there a tenderness do I allow myself to feel tenderness? And many times we don't because we protect ourselves. We want to be, we don't want to be hurt, we don't be, we don't want to suffer because of that. But sometimes we we close our heart off to all things, and sometimes that that leads to stagnation and death. So is there tenderness and what can I do to cultivate this tenderness in my in my prayer life, just towards God, towards Christ, towards life.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Amen. Amen. All right, Father, thanks for this.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Thank you for bringing up bro.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Bruh. What's up, bro? Yeah, and if uh if you catch uh or find out whenever the second edition is coming out, or whatever you want to call it, let me know because I will let you know. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

When we hear something.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

All right. Well, everybody, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Love you. Hope you guys have yeah, blessed are blessed by Brother Lawrence as well. Father, I love you too. Keep the faith or spread the faith. Yep. Oh, and the thing that we always forget. Um, everybody out there, if you're enjoying us, please like, subscribe, share, leave uh comments or reviews and all the all the fun things. Okay. It's how we it's how we can grow. Thank you. Appreciate you. God bless. Bye.