Is Catholic Faith Formation Failing? (Season 4 Episode 10)

We dig into Catholic catechesis, sacramental preparation, and the uncomfortable truth that a one hour CCD class can’t replace daily formation. We kick around a bold proposal: what if readiness for First Communion, Reconciliation, and Confirmation was tested through a simple pass-fail interview, and the real burden of formation moved back to the domestic church? That opens up the hard questions about priorities, overscheduling, and whether the faith is lived at home or treated like a milestone party. 

From there we talk parish life and relationship: why community can’t be built by the same small group doing everything, and how treating the sacraments like a “product” leads to shortcuts like drive-by bulletin stamping. We zoom out to Church renewal, unity, and why both leadership and families have responsibilities. We also reflect on contemplative religious life, the “productive” mindset, the faithful remnant, and how apologetics can drift into pride if we forget we’re called to witness, not win. 

If this hits a nerve, listen through and then share your take with us. Subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Support Ask

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and thanks for listening. If you like My Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us if you haven't already done so. And if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless.

Kidney Stone Night And No Sleep

SPEAKER_00 0:27

And it just starts. It just starts right away. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Fr Friar. My friend the Friar. Yeah, Father Stephen Sanchez, the Discalce Carmelite, coffee making priest. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome. Coffee. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. Um, so not last night, the night before, I passed a kidney stone, like 2-3 in the morning. And it was, oh my gosh, it was terrible. Because at first. Yeah, I've heard that they're Yeah, I just woke up, I woke up and was like, oh my back, my back hurts. Did I I twisted wrong in my sleep or something? And then I was like, oh my gosh, it really hurts. So I got out of bed and I started trying to walk around and stretch, and I was like, I can't, I can't make the pain stop. Why can't I make the pain stop? And I was like, oh let me go, there's a heating pad. Let me go get the heating pad and just like sit down with it for a minute. And then something about the angle that I sat down made it even worse. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna throw up. Like this is terrible. And then I was like, oh, this is just like when I had a kidney stone like five years ago kind of thing. I was like, oh no, is that what's happening? Because I had to go to the ER for that. I was I was out of my mind in pain the last time. And um, so I was like stretching on the ground and doing everything I could, and I was like sweating and not is there a patron saint of kidney stones? I mean, I was I was dying, and then finally I was like, okay, okay, I'm gonna try and go to the bathroom and pass the stone, and I was like, oh my gosh. I was just it was like all the pain, just it goes from like a tin to like I felt like my insides were all you know, like when you burn yourself and it doesn't hurt anymore, but you can tell that you burned yourself. So like down my the left side of my back, it was just like I could feel it still that it had happened, and I went and just got back in bed, just like passed out. And so I was so exhausted. And then so were the cats freaked out? No, everybody slept. Everybody slept in your emergency. Yeah, I'm I'm dying, and everyone's like, yeah. So it's only John. Yeah, so I so I went back to sleep, and then um, so I have an an alarm set for like 6 30 every morning, uh, even though I never sleep that late. Uh so that when it's the school year and Betty's gotta get up, like I don't accidentally forget to wake her up or something. So it's just on. Anyway, so I slept until that went off and I was like, okay. So I got out of bed. Um, because at that point in time, it it I guess the it startled me awake enough to where I was like, I'm not gonna go back to sleep kind of thing. So then I was up, but then last night

Hamilton, Parking Boot, Late Taco Bell

SPEAKER_00 3:10

we went now. Last night we went to see um the Hamilton play. Or um, I guess it's a play, yeah. Yeah, Broadway musical musical thing, right? Yeah, um and it was very hip-hop-y, right? Well, that's all it is, is like hip-hop rap history drama kind of whatever. Sorry, yeah. It was fun. I mean, it was if if it gets some younger people nowadays to know a little bit of like American history, like that's fair enough. Fair enough. But it was um in it oh my gosh, I completely forgot about this too. So it was out in Fort Worth. So we drive out to Fort Worth and What was it, Bass Hall? Yeah, yeah. Have you ever been there? Yeah, it's real pretty.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Very nice. Yeah. Um to go see the um dialogue of the Carmelites there a couple of years ago.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

That's the one where you said to the movie that they uh because it's an opera? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, that's like season one or something when you told me about that when we went and watched it, or we rented it or found some way to And today's today is the memorial of them.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

The is it? Well, Carmelites of Carmelite.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

And yesterday was the feast. Our Lady of Mont Carmel. Man, timing.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Timing. Providence.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah. So anyway, so we went out there and it was a beautiful place, and everyone's beautiful and fancy, and you know, all the people um watch the show, we leave, and um we go to our parking garage, and there's a boot on our car because in the parking garage, the space immediately to the left of ours was like available, but the one that I just parked in randomly just because we're trying to get to the show was reserved. And so they put a boot on our car and then charged like 60 bucks to take it off. And we're like, come on. So, anyway, by the time that's done and we get home, it's like almost midnight, and I was like, Oh my gosh. And the girls were like, We should have Taco Bell for dinner or whatever. So we got Taco Bell on the way home, and I ate like two tacos, and I was like, I'm gonna go to sleep. So went and passed out, and and the last thing I wanted was the cats to bother me all night. And so you'd like to no, I went and put food bowls out throughout the house and like filled them up. Yeah, I was like, Y'all go just leave me alone. And I slept until um it it was in it was sometimes in after six o'clock when I woke up, and the cats left me alone all night long. Thank you, Jesus. Like it was but it I went to bed late too, so that was the other thing. So I still didn't get a lot of sleep, but at least they left they left me alone. So I so tired. I need about 15 more cups of coffee.

Retreat Travel And Monastery Tree Damage

SPEAKER_00 6:05

So, what have you been up to? Uh you just you led a retreat recently or a conference. I say recently, this could have been last month for all I know. I can I can't keep track of anything right now. Well, me either. Have you traveled? You just did something. What did you do?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I had a retreat, a pro-life retreat.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

That's what it is. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Pro Ida. It was in Spanish. So I just had a retreat for that group. Um and then I had been to Little Rock. I was in Little Rock before that. And how's the castle doing? Fine, except just yesterday, day before yesterday, uh, Bob called me and told me the big oak tree in the circle fell. No, it was hollow on the inside. Apparently, they have so much rain right now that the ground is so sopping wet that the weight of the tree just toppled it over.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

So it did some damage to the monastery, one of the windows in the large chapel. And humongous. Yeah. So and then Bob fell trying to stop. I said Bob. You're not 19 anymore. He goes, I know Fod. So anyway. Uh so just trying to keep track of things, parish, house, monastery in Little Rock. So it's been busy trying to get stuff together.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Um how long have Bob and he's married, right? Bob and Mary lived. Yeah, how how long have they lived in that little house out there? Um like a hundred years, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:40

I mean, I met I met them, and they were living on the property back when I made my division, which was in '83. Yeah. So it was before then that they were still living there. And in fact, um, his mother and father used to go out, take them out to the monastery there. And uh after Bob's mom died, and there's like eight or nine kids after Bob's mom died, um, he couldn't keep all of them. So the I think the the youngest three or four, he took to the orphanage, uh, and the sisters took care of them. Uh, and so but of course he would go out there every weekend and stuff, but uh yeah, so Bob has a lot of memories of Mary Lake. So basically he was raised there on the property. So he's really attached to us and to that place. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

And were his parents um did they live in the house before him?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Like, so it did I'm not sure how I'm not sure how they how that was. Um I don't know when they I don't know when Bob and Mary moved on to the property. Um I wasn't around then. So we should go out and visit and do an episode with him. That'd be fun. That'd be fun to listen to Yeah, just tell stories, you know. Stories of the friars and everything.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, that would that would be fun. We should totally do it. Okay, we'll write that down and forget. But yes, of course. Maybe we'll remember.

Library Books And A Visit Plan

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

In fact, I'm going to write it down right now.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Oh, yeah, because we actually have because we have pens here. Yeah, because I'm out um I'm visiting, so I'm at Mount Carmel in our our library uh recording studio room. Um Father, I thought you were going through these books.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I thought you were trying to clean this place up, but it looks like there's more books than the last time I there's more books because I've been pulling them out and stacking them up, which are the things that I need to review. And what are the I got some duplicates I'm gonna get rid of. I've got some other stuff. So actually I have been pulling stuff out and looking at and stacking, trying to rearrange them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

I think I'll bring Betty out here one day and just give you can just type up an assignment list for her.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

She would never do anything, she'd sit down and read.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Dude, just read. Maybe, maybe if we did it like once a month, she would after two or three years, she would finally start fine smiling stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

After she read everything.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah. Well, I mean, we can try. We can try. Um oh, that's a study of the liturgy. That would be a cool book. Sorry. I love being in here too. Um, okay, so Squirrel. Yeah,

Fixing Catechesis Through The Family

SPEAKER_00 10:23

squirrel. I I've got this this thought. I think in just you know, in your spare time, you can just run this up to the Pope um and just get him to sign off on it. But it's this I've been thinking about okay, so all of all of my siblings, of all my siblings, there's there's a bunch of us, right? And only one of them still, besides me, still goes to church. And she's actually uh a convert. So she's I have two half-sisters, but they're sisters, right? So anyway, um, so they weren't raised Catholic, but she converted when um prior to getting married, and so she goes to mass every Sunday. Her her girls went to like Catholic school and stuff, so she really is practices her faith, right? Which is great, it's beautiful. Um, and then there's me, and then everyone else just kind of doesn't. And so I I've been thinking about this, and um I'm I'm just fascinated about why people stop going to church and and all that kind of thing. And I kind of think well, I think there's a there's a catechesis problem, I think is definitely definitely part of it. Um and then I think there's a relationship problem. So we're gonna have to talk about relationship here, of course, again. Um, but the catechesis thing. So this is why I think you should just just run it by holy father and and just we'll be done with it. Save the church, everything, right? Is we need to stop. Um, and please correct me, push back. I think that's fine. Um, we can we can uh what do they call it at work? We can brainstorm this or whatever. Um, but I think we should stop doing catechesis classes for children. And I think we should instead, prior to receiving a sacrament, first communion for the first one, yeah, first communion, reconciliation, confirmation, whatever. There should just be like an interview process with the child and the priest or something like that. And and it's just it is straight past fail. It is you're ready, you understand, or you don't.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Um, and I'm not saying it has to be the person has to have perfect understanding because relationships grow.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

But I think they there it there should just be a cutoff.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

They should they should show some sign of understanding.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and so if the if the requirement for catechesis, formation, all of that um was put back into the domestic church, so to speak, right? Mom and dad, grandma, grandpa, aunts and uncles, and this is the child learned their faith at home because they have a role model who's living the faith, and so then the kid goes, I want to live this because they have this beautiful home life spiritually. Then I think as they grow up, they're less likely to leave. So then I guess the catechetical classes, catechesis classes would have to be for the the family, the family, mom and dad have to go.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah. Um there there, I mean, I think that's a very good I'm I'm I'm glad you brought that up because um unfortunately a lot of people either cradle Catholics or whatever, right? Um so I come from a cradle Catholic family. So a lot of times what can happen is enough time to actually spend catechizing, teaching, or whatever, right? I think that'd be that would be a wonderful uh resolution to the problem. But I think another problem too is the faith life of the child important enough or prioritized enough so that they focus on that. And so, like, okay, but if you've got them going into soccer practice, baseball practice, volleyball practice, uh swimming, uh dodgeball practice, whatever. Um dodgeball practice. So what happens is there is such a misplaced focus on that. Um and children should be socialized, and children should have some sort of physical life, physical activity, some sort of life understanding on that aspect as well. That is very important. But I think what can happen is the parents become so and thereby messing them up. Anyway, it's a whole other 12 episodes. Um so I think I think it's true. I think, but it's a matter of how do you how do you prioritize or how do you make it something that is important for the domestic church, for the family member, whether it's uh whether it's a married couple or a single mom or single dad or whatever, right? Though there's different circumstances and situations that would have to be taken into account. But it might I believe that it should be more important to the family that it the domestic church really needs to embrace its importance and its spiritual life as a building block for the child, right? A lot of people recently in the past couple of decades, you know, they've been talking about the nuclear family, right? The importance of the nuclear family and family values. Great, wonderful. But what does that mean? Are you gonna catechize them or is is are you talking about a faith? Are you talking about a faith um in the family that is that is whole, healthy, integrated, and um taking into count you know the the child's ability to understand what it is that you're trying to teach them, right? So again, there's this whole other thing. Do the parents have, and I think you mentioned this, the do the parents have the understanding of what how their child the child's brain is developing and how they're can teach the child so that the child understands what they're trying to teach, right? Because then you can have your tiger mom, your tiger dad who's trying to you know teach you know the the eight-year-old, you know, uh all the the conciliar documents and and the Latin names and stuff like no, no. Again, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to anyway. Um do it. I know uh filter, filter, filter. Um there are a lot of people who have children but do not have the skills to be able to raise the children.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Right. So one thing is one thing is to be one thing is to be able to have a child, another thing is to be able to actually form the child. And so I think that's where a lot of the problem can be as well. That has to be taken into account again. So now getting back to what you're saying earlier, uh it would be a matter of having classes for the parents, okay. To teach them how to teach your children. So already I can say, like, well, I've got a job. Right, okay, so fine weekends. I got two jobs. Okay. And then to educate the parents as to the importance, right, of of living a spiritual life, and and not necessarily not necessarily giving them the lessons to teach their children, but at least an understanding of the faith so they can communicate that. So, like, okay, if you're gonna prepare them for first holy communion, we're gonna be talking about the Eucharist, we're gonna be talking about the history of the Eucharist, the development of the Eucharist, what does Eucharist signify? What is the importance of the Eucharist, right? And so then you can even get into signs and symbols and rituals and stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

And may maybe I'll maybe I'll even stop you here because I wonder if one of the when I was saying that we're gonna have to talk about relationship and stuff. Um I think part of the problem in the church today, and I can say this for sure in the United States, but maybe this is a global issue, is I think our faith, like, oh yeah, I believe in God, but not relational. And so if I'm if I'm if I'm teaching the concepts of the sacraments instead of the relationship of the sacrament, um and like I think of uh Jr. R Tolkien, right? So he was he was I don't remember what happened to his parents, but he was raised by a priest um in Africa or South Africa or wherever, somewhere in Africa. Um and so yes, there was probably some kind of conceptual training, like what is that? Why is it purple, right? Like, oh, let me hit the button. I wonder if it works. But the why is it purple? So why is it purple, right? Like, um, why is the thing that the way it is? That's fine. You know, people are curious, they want to understand.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

But if if you see your parents going to confession once a month for my as for as long as you can remember, it becomes habitualized not just not just in their the parents' lives, but that it becomes something that is just part of the culture.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, and so and then the kids at some point in time the kids like, why do we do this? Right. Well, let me tell you why we do this, right? Because it's it's not like a concept, it's I I want this relationship to work right with God. So so I I wonder if so yeah, you're gonna end up with parents who can't who don't who who can't teach and don't have the relationship. Correct. Okay, so then what happens to their kids? Is it really any worse than what it is now? Where it's like, hey, it's your first communion, let's go pick a pretty dress and let's go have a party and let's get gifts and stuff. Is it really any worse? Or is it maybe, you know, when the church population dips another 90% and their kids are the ones who are actually going to understand the relationship?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Yeah, and again, it goes back to formation, it goes back to um an example the example that the parents are uh supposed to live. And again, give a witness to this life for their children, uh which encourages their children to also at first it would be like to be long. I mean there's there's levels, there's there's faith, there's levels of faith development as well. So one is to to do it because they told me, tell me to do it, do it because I want to be long and everybody else is doing it, and then actually you start actualizing it and integrating it until you come to full maturity of faith and you do it or you you're engaged in your faith because it is a choice that you make and you understand what it what it signifies. Um But there's there's a there's a lot of there's so many variations in families and family systems and stuff, I think. That is something for us to take into consideration. But I and I think this is something that the churches try to teach. Even yeah, from the Second Vatican Council, they once again were trying to re-establish or make important again this whole idea of the domestic church, right? This whole idea of the family being the domestic church. But then again, there has to be it has to be important enough to the family to actually want to live it and teach it and be the instructors of the children, right? There's a lot of talk about that right now. It's like I want to teach my children, or I need to, I want to make the dis I want to make the decisions as to what my children learn. Like, okay, I understand the general concept, but that also is kind of scary. Uh because if you're one, if you're again, and no offense to the flat earthers, but if you're a flat earther and you're gonna teach your children that, like, I no. No, no. So there's a lot of things that have to be addressed, but you're right, it should come from that. I think part of the reason that the CCD and those catechetical classes developed was because there is a lessoning in that. And we can go into a whole other episode on post-industrial culture. Uh so that has a great effect as well. Uh the catechism tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that makes disciples, and only disciples make other disciples. So then the question would be, are the parents disciples? Or are they or are they uh Easter Christmas Catholics, right? You come to the Easter liturgy, the Christmas liturgy, and that's it, right? Yeah. Obviously that's minimal, that is a minimal, uh even nominal Catholics, right? They're just they're Catholics in name only. Um their children are gonna be nominally Catholic, and they're gonna be minimally catechised. And so the the C C D stuff I think was meant to be a supplement to the faith-based or to the domestic church. But unfortunately, what's happened is most families have abdicated their their responsibility to be a spiritual household, to to be formators of their children, and have basically abandoned or abdicated that and left it all on on the shoulders of the C C D system or the instruction system. And they can't do it because your teacher only has you for one hour or two hours a week.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

And what can you do?

SPEAKER_00 24:44

And I don't know you, right? Right sister, whoever from when when I grew up, the the only sister I can remember um was Sister Soledad. Um, and the only reason I remember her name is because my mom was like, That's the name of a prison out in California. I'm like, okay, and so it's stuck in my head. But anyway, um the there was we had a little Dominican um convent, and they're all from the the Philippines, and so they all had really thick accents, and I don't know you, sister, right? You're very nice, but I don't understand what you're saying very well, and I don't have a relationship with you, so why do I care what you're telling me when I'd rather be home playing Nintendo or something like that, right? So, yeah, you when you outsource the the responsibility of the parent. Correct. And look what else has happened our society, right? Now we're just gonna put on our grumpy old man hats. Um look at everything else that's happened in society because parents don't raise their kids, the schools raise our kids, or the teachers, or the or the internet raises our kids, right? And that's kind of what you're talking about post-industrial, like once upon a time. I had to go build fences with dad all day because we had to, and and I'm gonna learn from dad shoulder to shoulder working all day long. Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

And so there's a real there's a real interpersonal relationship.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah, or with mom or whatever, whatever's going on. And so that the the handing on of things is just natural, and that doesn't take place anymore.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

No. And I think part of that too is like there is a there's a work ethic that is passed on, there's there's a an in uh uh the ethic of integrity that is passed on, uh the growth in authenticity and stuff, all those are part of that whole cultural life. It goes back to the whole um term, you know, it takes a village, and that's what it means. It takes a village to raise a child. It means like it is a communal effort. And we, speaking as Catholics, in that there is a Catholic understanding of life, a life stance that is Catholic, a Catholic understanding of creation, stewardship, and all those things. And that is passed on through the way the family lives its life. Uh, so again, going back to this whole idea of catechesis, I think it'd be wonderful. But even then, it's unfortunate there's some families or some parents that try to find a way around, or they can't they can't see or they don't value what the church is trying to teach, and they try to find a way around it because they want the product, but they don't want the process. I want my child to make her his first communion or his her confirmation. But I don't want to go through the product through the process. I just want I just want the thing done. Yeah. And then that is unfortunate. For example, I'm gonna give you an example that really just absolutely ticked me off last year.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

On March 17th. I can I remember 25.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Um so it's at the at the parish. So the kids have to go to C C D classes. Yeah. And part of the process of the C C D class is when they go to church on Sunday, they're expected to go to church on Sunday. They have to take the bulletin, and the priest has to stamp or sign the bulletin to prove that you're there that they were there. Yep. Right?

When Sacrament Prep Becomes Cheating

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Right. You're like, okay, whatever. So uh so then I find out that there's some parents that were coming at the very end of mass. The child would get out of the car, go into the church, get the bulletin, go into the sacristy, have the priest sign that person's stamp.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Drive by bulletin stamping. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

And then leave again, right? And so then I was absolutely infuriated, but I go, there's nothing, okay, whatever. So we're gonna have to set up cameras, right? Find out who these who these parents are. So for a couple of weeks I I preached during the announcements. I like, okay, this is what's happening, and stuff like that. So I told him I was very blunt. I go like you're teaching your child to be deceptive, you're teaching your child to lie, you're teaching to your child that rules are for other people, and for if you're smart enough, you can get you can get around the rules. I said, that's fine if you want to teach your children that, but once your children do that to you, do not bring them here to this church and ask us to fix your child because you broke your child. Not my job. Yeah. So but see, that's kind of like, okay, you have families that are doing that, right? Like, what is it that you're teaching your child?

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

So yeah, and it goes back to this whole idea of discipleship and what is the importance of the faith. So if it's not, if my faith is not important to me, but the only thing that is important to me is that I get my ticket punched so that I get I get my communion, I get my baptism, I get my confirmation. To what end? Yeah. If you're not gonna live that life, then to what end?

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Yeah. And so, like what what would happen? Let's let's follow this this all the way through. Okay. So this pass fail interview process creates basically a calling of the flock. Yeah. You you're not ready, it is not important to you, so don't drop spot like that. Like 90%, whatever, right? Everybody goes, Well, I'm gonna go to the the whatever, whatever corner church down the street. So then they go, and then I was somebody was I was joking with somebody about this the other day. Um and then the church will have to rebuild from there.

unknown 30:42

Yeah.

Parish Life Needs Real Relationships

SPEAKER_00 30:43

And speaking of relationship, here's another thing that, and I'm gonna raise my hand here because I know I do this terribly, and this has been weighing on my on my heart so much lately, and I don't know what my problem is. Um the but parish life, like the church, the the parishes should not be run by like two percent of the parish population, and the tithing comes from the church.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Right, correct, correct. That's that's been part of our that's part the Catholic problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, and I'm part of the problem. Like, I know that like I have no problem tithing, but do I, outside of like my church brothers and maybe their families and stuff like that, do I know anyone at the parish? You know what I mean? Like, how many people and you know, and and I get it's not the location.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Correct. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

So that's the problem. Like, right, we should be in relationship with everyone in the parish.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Yes. And I think this goes back to what you be, you know, we be you opened this with this idea. You opened up this this section with this idea, the conceptual part. And I think in okay, part of civilization is the the the capacity to manipulate abstract concepts, and that's fine, that's great, that's wonderful. We reward people that are able to do that to manipulate or give voice to abstract concepts, and that's wonderful, that's great. But what can happen is that when you bring that into relationship, when you bring that into again for us as Catholics, which is relational, uh, what happens is you do damage to that relationship because you're not really thinking about the interaction and the whole dialogue and the dance of relationship and the whole idea of communicating, dialoguing, working through problems, misunderstandings, misconceptions, and all that, which takes work. But if you're only thinking of it conceptually, you're you're missing out on the most vital part of that, and that is that it is a personal encounter. So our life is about a personal encounter with Christ. And obviously, that personal encounter with Christ is just not me and Jesus. That's Protestantism. It is me within the community that I belong to. It is our encounter with Christ, in each other, with each other, and through each other and with each other. Our understanding of Christ's presence in my life begins to expand and to deepen. But it's about learning that abstract concepts are great and wonderful, except that there has to be another component to that, and that is the ability to be able to express that in an interpersonal way. Yeah. And that's what makes it sacramental, and that's what makes it real. Yeah. So yeah, I agree that there are problems as long as there are human beings. Problems, we can't people, yeah. Yeah. God's people. We have to still work at it, and that is each era or epoch uh has its own problems. So we have to figure out what are the problems there we are facing now. But the problem is, of course, as we as a church begin to address and try to find a way to solve the problems that we find ourselves in at the moment. Being the organic thing that we are, as the church, community, society continues to develop and grow, there's going to be other things that we're going to have to continuously renew. And that's what this whole thing is about. The renewal, it is a a renewed way of addressing the historical space and time that we find ourselves in as it shows uh situations, issues, problems, uh, opportunities that we find ourselves in to continue to grow in our relationship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah.

Synods, Unity, And Reforming Leaders

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I think um I think that the it would probably benefit the church to I'm gonna put this, I'm gonna say it. Someone's gonna get grumpy about it. Um but um we should the Pope should call a synod. That alone probably triggered 90% of the children. But that's normal. The synods are called all the time. But he needs to call a synod with the purpose of of everyone sitting, all the bishops sitting down and going, what are we doing, guys? Yeah. And and with speaking of relationship, let's get the the bishops from the Orthodox churches to come to and sit down and look at each other and say, what are we doing? Right, right? Like 500 plus years later, like, what are we doing? Thousand is division in the church. Yeah. And that and if if the church can't even fix that with itself, then of course, when it trickles all the way down, the bishops don't have relationship with each other, the parish priests don't have relationship with each other, the parishioners don't have relationship with each other, the families don't have relationship with each other. Right. And so it's um and and even within the family, parents and children don't have relationship. And now it shouldn't, I'm I'm a big both end. It shouldn't, it doesn't need to be just top-down. It needs to be top-down and bottom-up, and then we meet in the middle. Because where do our priests and bishops come from? They come from the domestic church. Right. But the same way the domestic church can't abdicate its responsibility, neither can the people at the top. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

I'm glad you brought that up because it reminds me of here go, nerd. We've been nerd out for just this, just I don't want to say a second, it's gonna be longer than a second. Uh before coming out of the dark ages and trying to well, I shouldn't say dark ages, I don't think that that term is used anymore. Uh coming out of the the early Middle Ages. Um getting past the the famines, the wars, the pestilence, plagues, all that other stuff, right? As the church was trying to regather itself, the church was trying to reform itself because it there was need for reform. Again, because every age has its problem. And we're again humans continue to be humans. And so mm, the problem of the age was whatever they thought needed to be reformed. So there were several attempts throughout different parts of the church, because that was before the church was unified under Peter or had a greater system of communication which strengthened the unif the unity of the church. Um I going back to what I know, right, what I'm familiar with and what I've studied. In Spain, it was Ferdinand and Isabel that began the reformation of the church in Spain with the permission of the Holy See, and the way they began the reformation of the church in sp in Spain, or the thus Spain speaks of several kingdoms, was it began with the reformation of the clergy.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah, I was gonna say, didn't they they took a good hard look at who the bishops were and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yes, yeah, and they were demanding, they demanded that the that their that the bishops had to live in the diocese that they were bishops of. What? To receive benefices and stuff. That they they went through this whole thing, and they also had a brilliant man, Cardinal Cis Cardinal Cisnetos, who was a Franciscan. He helped them also in this whole reformation, and it made a huge difference in the Reformation and the education of the clergy, and thereby their idea was by educating the clergy, the clergy can educate the lay people, and thereby the renewal then of understanding of the faith. And so I agree, I think it has to be uh both from the top down and from the bottom up that there is this understanding because I think now we live for us in the United States and most of the world. Um very literate. We have access to the internet, which is a curse and a blessing. Uh, you have through the internet you can access libraries and library stacks and different things and archives and stuff like that. There's a lot of potential, right? Uh instead of watching cat videos, Betty.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Uh, I was thinking about cat. They are pretty fun to watch. They are fun.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

There are things that we can do with our time that are challenging and educating. So uh yeah.

Holiness, The Faithful Remnant, Pride

SPEAKER_02 39:17

So she's gonna hit me. So anyway, uh I'm again, there's opportunities, but again, a part of it too is most people aren't adult enough to figure this out.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah. And and you know what's funny, when she comes back to hit you too, she's gonna say, and where's my nun? Yeah, which is the other side of it, is there's kind of a shortage of y'all, knowledgeable people who are outside the family. So if somebody has an authentic desire to grow spiritually, they're like, Okay, well, do I go to the internet for that? How does this or how do I do this? Yeah, there's and of course, there's great um, you know, there's great educational content out there, my friend the friar. You know, there's resources. Yeah, my friend the friar. And um, you know, other you know, podcasts and stuff like that. But but anyway, um, no, there's there's great things out there. But um But again, too.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

I mean, I think again, getting back to this whole idea too, is before there was instantaneous communication, where did you go? Or how did how was it possible? Right? There are there are some classic writings and stuff that are that it can help people, right? But it's a matter of you know, fine helping people find those resources uh so that they can you know learn and grow themselves, right, and educate themselves.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Well, and and speaking of speaking of nuns, um think of people like Saint Therese or Saint Rita. Like why did they end up the the why did their lives ultimately end up in sainthood is in no small part to the relationships they had with the sisters growing up, right? There was a convent in the area, there was a monastery in the area. It was a Catholic family, it was a Catholic culture. And so, yeah, so all these relationships rubbed off on them and formed them throughout their life, and that's the thing that's missing, right? And and to you know, not make fun of my wife. That's that's the thing she's looking for. Right. Right, and and it's hard to find that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

I think part two uh within within the world, the church today, right, there there is a decrease in religious life. There's an increase a lot in most of the a lot of the active congregations because that's what people are about. People want product, right? I want to go and I wanna dig a well for this poor family in the the outer limits of some Peruvian jungle, right? Yeah, and so I I do the well and I dig the well and I leave and I feel satisfied because I did something, right? So when it comes to religious orders, especially for us that are the contemplative orders, there's no ex product. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Wait, what do you mean? I'm just supposed to pray. Pray? Supposed to be holy. That's not productive. Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Exactly. See, and that's what where the problem is there, too, is that the inability or the lack of formation and understanding that the personal sanctity of a person increases the sanctity of the church. And so again, if you're stuck in the doing part instead of the being part, then yeah, this is we are who we are. And it's a it's all in God's hands. Whatever God desires to do with this will will happen the way it happens. So I'm not worried about that. It's God's church. Um But I think part of it too, then is that there is this understanding of you know the faithful remnant. This is something that has been consistent in salvation history from the beginning of Israel, right? There is a faithful remnant. So who is this faithful remnant, right? So now you have people that are arguing and fighting with each other who the faithful remnant is. And so, like, okay, the faithful remnant, it'd be like like in the 25th chapter of Matthew when Jesus says, uh, Come inherit the kingdom because you fed me, you clothed me, you visited me, right? The faithful remnant don't know that they're the faithful remnant because they're being faithful. Yeah, it's the other people that that we have probably.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

How did we see you? Right, exactly. I didn't have a chance, right? Yeah, give me something to do. Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

It's the other people that think that they're faithful remnant, they're like, nah, you're the problem.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Um that that makes me think uh here recently I've been thinking um about um apologetics and pride. And I think so. Satan has this really he's he is um very skilled at taking the thing which is holy and making it unholy, bringing it to sin, right? So um the the person who grows up that just wants to love or just wants to be a dad or just wants to be a mom or just wants to get married, whatever hermetics, there is nothing wrong with the teaching of the things. Correct. But the truth is when we're arguing, it just sounds like pride. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

And it is because it's it's like I'm trying to prove my point. Like it's it's not for you to prove the point, it's for you to present the truth. Whatever the other person wants to do with the truth, they they have God's give they have a God-given right to accept it or reject it. It's on them, man.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah. So it's and that's not to say that people who are engaged in apologetics are being sinful.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

No.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

I'm just saying I I've there's something there that I think it can be vainglorious because that's where some people get caught up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

They get caught up and they get lost in their vainglory, right? And they get lost in their pride, and it's all about again, uh, how many likes do I have, how many subscriptions do I have, how many downloads do I have, and it becomes this whole this whole thing that it's not meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Well, Father, we've been talking for a minute, so I think we probably, yeah, we should um probably wrap this one up. But um and this is this has been great because I was thinking about this when I was driving out here. I think this is literally only the second time I've seen you in person all year. Probably. I think I saw you once before because I remember giving you yeah, yeah, yeah, in person. I think I get because that's when I give you your a book that I got you for your birthday, and it was way after your birthday. Right. That's and I was so I was coming out of here, I was like, I think, is this only the second time I've seen this guy in person? Holy cow! And I think it is. So I've I've appreciated just getting to come and hang out with you.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

But um being the library and yeah, taking on the book smell.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Yeah, yeah, it smells good. It smells good. Um, but anyway, uh yeah, we got more more things to talk about, but not today. So I love you. Thanks for having me. Love you, and everyone, thanks for joining us, and we will see you next time. God bless, share the podcast. Bye for now. Bye.