183 Supervision: How Therapists Can Turn Expertise Into Income (Ethically)

Supervision is not just an extra income stream. Without structure, it becomes an ethical and professional risk.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Ashley Stephens Durbin to walk through what it actually looks like to build supervision as an ethical form of income. We unpack the fears clinicians have about liability, confidence, and business setup, and we clarify what supervision requires beyond strong clinical skills.

We talk about the difference between seeing supervision as a “side hustle” and understanding it as a structured professional role. You will hear how supervisors move from uncertainty and hesitation to building systems that support both their supervisees and their own license.

We also spend time on something that comes up in every training. Ethics and accountability. There is a lot of confusion about liability, business models, and what supervisors are actually responsible for. We walk through how to stay compliant, how to set boundaries, and how to avoid the common mistakes that get supervisors in trouble.

This conversation is about structure. When supervision is treated casually, it creates risk. When it is built intentionally, it becomes a meaningful, sustainable extension of your practice.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why supervision is not a quick or easy side income 
• What systems you need before taking your first supervisee 
• How liability actually works and how to manage it 
• Why starting small leads to stronger, more ethical supervision

If you have been thinking about becoming a supervisor but feel unsure where to start, pause here. This is not a confidence problem. It is a structure problem. Ethical supervision comes from clear systems, defined roles, and consistent processes.

Want to learn more? Check out this month’s free resource from Kate Walker Training.

Do you wish you could have gotten a CE for this? Join the Step It Up Membership, because they get these episodes as a 1-hour CE.

Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit. 

Transcript

Supervision Is More Than An Hour

SPEAKER_03 0:00

One of the biggest myths that I'm combating in a lot of the Facebook comments is one hour of supervision is not one hour of your time per week. Like I said, it takes time and energy. I cannot tell you how many crisis calls I've gotten on a Tuesday afternoon at two o'clock saying I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome to Bandance Therapists, building practices for money. What it's all about working smart, not harder. And if you're your host, Dr. Kate Walker.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Supervision is real work. It carries real responsibility, and yes, it can be real income. Today, Dr. Ashley Stevens Durbin and I are walking through what it actually looks like to build an ethical, profitable supervision practice, the business models that work, the ones that will get you in trouble, the fears that are reasonable, and the ones that aren't. And how to start small without leaving money on the table. If you've ever thought I should probably be supervising, this episode is where you start. And if you're already supervising and flying by the seat of your pants, welcome. We're glad you found us. Now let's get to work. And the angle we're we're wanting to present to you tonight is supervision as an ethical form of income. And supervision, it can be just like counseling. It can be done good, it can be done bad, it can be done ugly. And so if you are curious about becoming a supervisor, we will weed that in. If you're here just because you're curious about supervision, but your agency is paying for it, or you don't plan on taking money, you're still going to get a lot out of what we have planned for you today. Let's begin at the beginning. We're here to talk to you about becoming a supervisor, uh, learning how to turn expertise into income. And yes, I know I'm showing you the screen where you can actually see the side panel and the design panel and all those things. Um, so that's just easier for me. Ashley, why don't you tell them a little bit about you and how you are a part of all of this supervisor training?

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Absolutely. So hi everyone, Ashley here. I am the what I like to call the social work arm of Kate Wonker training. I gotta work on my on my muscles then, I guess. But I have been a supervisor for many years and actually created a business to supervise. So I was like, I guess I'll do some therapy if I have to, but I'm more interested in passing on my knowledge, sharing with the next generation what makes a good therapist, social worker, all of those kinds of things, and really got passionate about that work. And that is where Kate and I met and started working together. And so any of the info that you see, if you are a social worker, you'll see my face on it as well as Kate. And just thank y'all for being here. And I love to chat about this stuff. It's like my favorite thing, like conferences and everything. I'm like, can I talk about supervision? Because it has changed my life. My dissertation for my degree was on burnout. It changed my, I've not had a lick of burnout ever since I started doing this work. I truly believe it is something that more of us should be doing, passing on our knowledge and smarts and experience. And as Kate said, the the key word in this presentation is ethical. You will not find us treating trainees badly. You will not find us taking advantage of people. That is not what we're here to do. That does happen. But we welcome you and are so excited to have you talking about, thinking about pre-contemplative on the journey of supervision.

Why Supervision Can Be Income

SPEAKER_01 3:58

All right. So let's get to who you are. You're the hero of this story. If you're a counselor thinking about supervising, that's one step beyond. And it's really needed. We you're a licensed therapist, you're good at what you do, you've put in the work, you got the grad school, the supervision hours, the exams, the sessions. And in Texas, if you're watching this and listening to this or attending from Texas, it's five years experience. So other states may have different levels of experience, different criteria. But in Texas, you have to have five years, and that's post-upgrade. And we get asked that a lot. When does the five year start? Well, it starts from the upgrade, not from your associate license. So I know a lot of people that we talk to, when we go to the conferences, people are wondering, I don't know if I want to do this, should I do this? And of course, unless you have been in a PhD program, nobody's taught you how to supervise. And, you know, I've had supervision experiences that weren't the best. I know Ashley has. And part of the 40-hour training in Texas is we don't just do death by PowerPoint. We actually have you do some uh some thoughtful assignments. And one of them is just saying, okay, how was your past experience? And if your experience was bad, you know, and that's all you've got to go on, then you're probably wondering, okay, I don't know how to do this. I mean, we've heard horror stories about people, all they do is like group supervision. And so they're basically just telling their supervisees, hey, you're good for this week. You know, just you know what, sign my name for me. It's fine. Just, you know, you're good to go. And so, I mean, there are real horror stories. And Ashley and I are kind of rules junkies. So you'll find us at most of the meetings in the leadership lunch and learns. And last week we hosted a webinar with Christina Deluna and Robert Roming. Christina's the LPC administrative person, and Robert Roming is the assistant deputy director. So we got some really good answers, but they like when we do stuff like this because they know we're trying to create a place where we we put out the best supervisors. So here's what you want. You want to know if it's right for you, you want to feel confident. And most of us want to make meaningful income. And so I want to plant this seed with you that, you know, yes, supervision is giving back, but in no way, shape, or form are you expected just to, you know, have this huge responsibility and not be reimbursed for that. And of course, there are conditions if you are part of an agency and they are hiring you to do supervision, you can't also charge for that. So this is definitely, it's like starting a private practice, or it's it's actually a side hustle. So if you are a counselor with a private practice or a marriage and family therapist or a social worker, and you have a practice, this is actually going to be an additional stream of income for you. But you do want clarity on whether it aligns with who you are and what you want. You want to feel confident and you want it profitable. You don't want to just be donating your time. So maybe you're asking yourself, do you have enough experience? How much do you charge? What kind of paperwork do you need? What happens if your supervisee makes a mistake? And are you liable? Do you need training? If so, what kind? Well, Ashley and I, we just took our Katewalker training courses national, and it was a bear because we're having to go through all of the criteria throughout the country. And you know, Texas is unique in a lot of ways. And one of the ways we're unique is we do require a rigorous training. But surprisingly enough, we're not the most. Like several states require a 45-hour training. So Texas says you got to be licensed five years, uh, you have to have this 40-hour training. Some states only need three hours. Some states don't require any specialized training at all. And we don't recommend that because it is different. It is, it's not counseling on steroids. It is very, very different. So if you're feeling uncertain, exposed, and exposed, what if you're not good enough to teach someone else? What if you ruin someone's career by giving them bad advice? What if a supervisee's client gets hurt and it's my fault? Is anybody gotten off because of these scary things? Okay, good. Don't leave the meeting, hang in there. What if you start supervising and hate it and you're stuck? We have really good answers to all of these. And I would like to just take a second. What scares you? What are you hesitating? What's the sticking point for you about becoming a supervisor? I don't mean if you're green lights, awesome. But if you're having some hesitation, just pop it in the chat. Thanks, Kat. Do I actually know enough? Will it be hard to find supervisees? We'll talk about that. That is a huge part of the fears, right? Everybody's like, okay, I've got my S, but it's the same thing with counseling. If I build it, will they come? Definitely wondering how to set it up business-wise. Do you recommend opening a separate, a separate supervision business from your private practice? Will it financially benefit me? How will I get supervisees? I have really, really good information on this. And this is actually from the last leadership listening hour. Robert Romick said something so important that we're actually going to start incorporating it into our training. Ashley, I don't know about you, but like when I first became a supervisor, it was back when you only needed three years of experience. I had no business supervising. Like there is no, I had like my experience level, I barely could keep myself in my counter transference of what was going on inside of me and then focus on my my client, right? I mean, I barely had those skills. And there I was, I was like, okay, I got my S. Woo-hoo. And thank goodness only too.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Still. So, you know, and there's people, I think, I don't know about counselors, but social workers typically, it's a not typically, I should say, it's a large percentage, second or even third career. So we do have some people, thankfully, that have been like professors for 20 years and then decided to become social workers and things. So we have, I think an older population that goes into their MSW as opposed to like going straight through from undergrad, but we get them. And I had my master's at 23 years of age. So at 25, had no business. I was like 35 when I started supervising. Yeah.

Readiness Experience And Real Fears

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Liability. Since I don't have private practice, my supervisees will be getting their experience at another location. Karen, that's super, super common. And we will talk about that. Uh protecting our own license. Um, Melanie, yeah, we'll talk about there's actually, and by the way, when I say we'll talk about it, you guys have to remind me because if it's not on the PowerPoint, it's gonna go out the window. But we will talk about what you need as far as liability insurance, boundaries with future colleagues. I've heard too much gossip from interns about their supervisor. Oh my, and so have we. That's that is a thing. Plus, if you've got your supervisee working someplace where there are social work rules, there are MFT rules, there are LPC rules, and then it just gets so confusing. Most of my work is triage, so how can I help a therapist, limited therapy experience? Well, Melody, we will find out. That niche may be perfect, it may be just what someone out there is looking for. So the the philosophical problem here is we need you. We know there's a shortage. You may have been on some calls where on paper in Texas, it looks like we have plenty of supervisors, right? And so there are 6,000 new associates coming out, there are 6,000 supervisors. I'm making those numbers up. Those that's roughly what we have. But you can guess the problem. When supervisors aren't trained well, and I'm I'm looking in the camera right now. I mean, I'm I'm not saying this to to judge anyone or anybody else's training program, but when you aren't trained well, you have one supervisee, and man, one thing goes south, you're like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm never doing this again. And, you know, I I know people like that. I mean, I've had, oh, I think 16 supervisees. Ashley, how many of you had? I know you're still supervising. I've retired from supervising, but I think I stopped at 16.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Yeah, I've probably, I think my most to this point, I think it's 22, 25, something around there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

And not everything goes perfect. And so, just like in counseling, that's why it's so important not to just get the business aspect, which you guys have pointed out in the chat, but also to understand there's a structure and good systems save the day. So here's what I wanted to show you guys. This is something Ashley and I get. And I have training materials that are actually offered by other training courses. So if you take another course, you may see my stuff pop up. And a lot of it's out of date. I'm not in control of that. I'm not in control of who uses our stuff, but we get it. We've been doing this a long, long time. I started teaching this course in 2006, I think. And then along with, you know, having done it since 2007, even though I shouldn't have been, because I've only three years. But, you know, Ashley and I have helped thousands of supervisees and we've trained. You know, I looked at the numbers once. I think we trained one year over half the supervisors that Texas actually gave the the S designation to. And let me pause and clarify that. Just because you take the training doesn't mean you get the S, right? The board is the one that ultimately says, okay, that's, you know, that's something we're going to give you. And it is a designation, not a license. So they'll give you an S to tack on to your license.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

But anything you want to add to that, Ashley? I think one of the things for me, the reason why, you know, when Kate was talking about, you know, going for the social work um side of things, I was so insanely impressed by what the system was. She's been doing this for a long time and has it kind of down. And when I took my supervisor designation, I obviously took it with someone else because we didn't exist yet. And obviously that wouldn't work. And it was just kind of like a bunch of like, here's here's things about supervisees, you'll figure it out. And it was kind of like, I don't know, I felt like master's program of like you get all of the info, but there's no like tangible. And I think that that's one of the things that I love the most about our course is that you walk away with things in your hands to get started. And our results, we always ask people, how did it go? What did you think about the course? And every single one of them said, I actually feel ready to start this business. I did not have that feeling. And it took me probably two years after I got my designation to actually start because I was still a little scared after I took my course. And that's just the opposite of how we want y'all to feel.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

So we do have three simple steps we're going to talk about with you. And yes, we're going to help you decide if it's right for you. We're going to talk about the systems, and I just can't emphasize that enough that keep you and your practice safe. And best practices. We read the social media threads, and you'd read them too. People are like, well, show me the rule where this is this, and show me the rule where that is that. Well, you know what? Sometimes they're just not in there. And so what we do is we have to have a best practices. Well, where did best practices come from? They come from research and they come from groups like this. And we talk and we try to surround uh supervisors with a big, warm, fuzzy blanket of safety. So one of the things we'll talk about is starting small and growing. But I want to just share a story about my first supervision experience. I graduated with my master's degree. There were a bunch of us, we were all friends, and lo and behold, we all, a bunch of us got hired by this guy. So we get hired, and we are actually going to work in his practice, and he will supervise us. It's like, oh my gosh, how cool is this? He had a very cool office. It was all this mid-century modern stuff. He'd been everywhere and he had seen everything. And we were really enjoying these weekly supervision meetings that we were being charged for. So then we looked around, we're like, long story short, hey, we're not getting any clients. Part of this deal was if we are going to supervision every week, you gotta be supervising something, right? I mean, that's what supervision is it's case consultation. And so then we recognized we were being charged to keep the lights on in the office. We were being charged for the front office staff, we were being charged for rent in this six-office suite. And I mean, there were 10 of us, so he was getting kind of a sweet deal. Now, of course, we all got together at Starbucks one day and said, Hey, is this right? But nobody had taught us that in our master's program. And that's one of the things we do on our podcast, which is Badass Therapist Building Practices That Thrive. Dr. Tara Fox last semester did a whole bridging the gap and what to look for in a good supervisor. But you need to be a good supervisor. And I don't think this guy was bad. I think he had a good heart, but he didn't understand that if you take insurance in your practice, your supervisees couldn't get clients unless they were cash. Now, this was many, many years ago. Now we have some incident to billings, and uh there are ways that your associates can bill insurance. So he just had the business model wrong. So I can imagine that, you know, wherever he was trained, they didn't go over business plans and why that business plan would never work with associates. And so that's one of the things we want to make sure we talk about during this, you know, because it is about making money. If you have the wrong business plan, you could get in a whole different level of trouble, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Well, I have a question for you. Um, so the question was are there limits to how many supervisees you can have? And I believe we're all the same, but um, there is somewhere that says you can you there's a limit to how many you can have in group, which is six. But other than that, the Texas board leaves it up to you to determine what is like ethically able for you to manage. Is that the same for y'all?

Green Flags Rules And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 19:15

No. So uh I believe LPC has no limit on groups. LMFT, I think, just got rid of their limit on groups. So the idea is there are numbers here of how many total you can have and how many you can have in a group setting. Yeah. And so it's pretty much like laissez-faire parenting, right? Board has taken their hands off and they're saying, hey, it's up to you. Just make sure you do a good job. So that's that's why we do what we do, Ashley. Yeah, yeah.

Training Systems And OER Framework

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Okay, so step one is deciding if this is the right pathway for you. One of the things that I think is uh largest on social media is this idea of people looking for a gig, a side gig. And that we we run into a lot. And there are a couple of people like me that are out there that are like, look, this is definitely a hustle. It is also a side thing, but gig implies quick and easy. And I think sometimes people get into this and they are not expecting how much time or energy it actually is. Now, that is not to say I think it's fun, I think it's more fun than like the therapeutic time and energy, but it is time and energy. So the first question that we want you to ask yourself in this is how do I feel about teaching? And is this something that I've seen myself doing? Is this something that am I just a person who likes to pass along my experience, my wisdom? Can I have I made a bunch of mistakes and I can inform people how to avoid making those same mistakes? How do I feel about teaching the next generation of counselors and supervisees to come up? And if that thought energizes you and really kind of lights a fire in your heart, then let's go. Let's do this. The second one is how do I handle evaluating and can I be assertive? You know, I didn't say aggressive, calm down, but like this does take a little bit of cojones. It is not easy to tell someone when they're putting a client at risk, they need to quit it. Remediation and evaluation are a key cornerstone of the Kate Walker training process, which is one of the things that I also love about it. But that, like if you are comfortable or can grow to be comfortable in being clear and kind while giving hard news, absolutely this is for you. If you run away and kind of find yourself in some ways being like, maybe I'll just I'll see what happens next week, or I'll I'll keep going on this. See how it hey, maybe they'll learn what they need to do. That is not gonna fly in this. It is, we are the gatekeepers of our professions. We are in some ways the only gatekeepers because our universities are encouraged to pass people through and not give them bad grades. And so they kind of leave it on our shoulders. And it is a lot sometimes. Hopefully that's rare. And you don't have a ton of supervisees that that is the case for. But we absolutely have to evaluate and we absolutely have to give hard moves sometimes. If you can do that, welcome. Last is maybe I don't have a current system. Maybe I don't even know what a system for this would look like, but I'm willing to learn how to get this organized and in a way that I can build these systems. It requires structure. You know, the worst thing is to like I have the rule book up when I'm in supervision, nearly every time I'm in supervision. I just want to make sure that I'm staying in this and that I'm not speaking things that I just think are true. I'm looking at this, I'm control F finding, trying to figure out what do they have to say? And then how do we fill in the gaps if they don't say it? Because there's a lot that isn't said in our rule books. So if you thrive on structure and you really can get a system in place to walk these people through the process. And I will say, thankfully, it does get easier the more you do it. I had someone who is, she became a supervisor. It's like my grandchild of supervising. And she just started the process and she said, How do you know? Like every time I ask you a question, it's like, yeah, that's 781.404, don't you know? And she's like, I will never get there. And it's always you when you spend as much time, maybe not as much, when you spend some time as Kate and I in the rule book guiding people, this will also come to you. And if you're so full of clients all day, every day that you don't even know which way is up, then of course you wouldn't learn these rules and they wouldn't be kind of top of mind for you. But adding supervision helps you kind of renavigate and reorient your brain, and you will find that you know these things. And it comes like second nature to you too. So if those systems sound fun and exciting and really structure is something that maybe you're you're missing, this is a great way to start. All right. Green flags. You're ethically serious and rule literate. I actually wrote, this was years ago now. I wrote to the Texas board and I said, I believe that you have to be a lawyer to understand what the heck you people are saying. I don't, what is this? What do you mean? And I I now have supervised. I'm down to four states, but I have supervised in five different states. And many of them are not like this. You know, it is the the board makes rules that aren't in state law or vice versa. Ours is such that the state laws and the state statutes guide our rule book and how we do what we do. So it comes across as very legalese and lawyers speak for a reason. It's been through the legislative process. So when again, I'm it's not like a broker record, but when you spend time in this, you really do start to come with, oh, I actually know what that's saying. Like I don't even need a law book to be open to read what it is that they've made the change for. So it is difficult. And I'm one of those people that says, if you're confused about what this has to say, I am more than happy to kind of tell you what I read from it. And if we can't figure out what the rule is, and often it's because there's nothing actually being said there to guide you, it's a gray space that you have to form that best practice that Kate was talking about. But we can come together to try and figure out what's what. And once you start doing that, you will absolutely get to a place where you can read these things. So if you're not currently just spending a bunch of time in our 180, 90 page rule book, that's okay. As long as you're willing to learn. And the amount of people who say things on Facebook, two supervisees, two associates that are wrong is astronomical. So I always, if I'm answering something on Facebook, if I'm not on my phone, it's a little harder. But if I'm on my computer, here's the rule. Here's the subsection, here's the subsubsection, here's the subsub subsection. That's just how I operate to make sure that this isn't Ashley, this is the rule book. Second, is you can tolerate ambiguity without panicking. This is absolutely one of those things we've been talking about, the gray and the reading between the lines. There is quite a bit of that in the state of Texas with our board. And they will say to you, we legislate licenses, we don't legislate businesses. So there's a lot in the creating a business world that is not written, that is kind of unspoken. And that's why we are on those meetings. We're in the YouTube. If we've missed one, catching up and hearing what they have to say. And Kate and I talked about this the other day. Also calling out the board members when they're not right. So there have been times where they've said something and we're like, no, bud, that's not what the rule book says. And we can show you where exactly it says that that's covered or that's how continuing ed works or whatever. You value clarity and structure. You really just thrive on like getting a clear process and pathway in place and helping people do the same. Because depending on the personality and mood of your supervisee, they will often try and pull you off pathway, off course. You know, I think one of the most common things that I get, I don't know if Kate feels the same, but I do have a lot of supervisees that will say, can we just meet over the phone instead? I'm at lunch. Can we skip this week and use it? Like send me something instead and I'll read it and that'll count for our week. Or I'm not feeling well, or my kids in baseball, or whatever else. And those are the kinds of things that maybe once in a year or something, there are flexible ways that you can really get your people. I mean, they're people after all, they have families, they have kids, they have jobs, but you know, people who are willing to kind of start breaking the rules and start shifting kind of a little bit. Your job is to pull them back on the straight narrow. And this is what the laws say. This is how we comply with whatever our rules have to say about this. And there are, there's a lot of guidelines around that, thankfully. We've talked about this a little. You can give that honest feedback without rescuing or shaming. And these are where our clinical skills are just as heavily used in this process as it is with things like therapy. Your job is to grow them into your colleague. And I think it's one of my favorite things about it. I'm building my own network, I'm building my own referral sources, I'm building my own, you know, kind of like community in this space. And that is cool. But it also means that we have to have a lot of boundaries. We have to make sure that we're not rescuing them from themselves. They need to be the ones who know how to operate ethically and morally. We give them the guide rails, and you know, the further they get in it, the looser we get at holding their hands until they can fly. Because after two short years, and it does feel really short at the end of it, they're free and they're off making whatever decision that they're making. So absolutely guiding and encouraging them without doing the advice giving, without shaming them, without rescuing them. And lastly, this profession needs your hands to help shape it. I just am that image of like people pulling you off course. If you sit in some of the board meetings, you'll see that a lot of people have a lot of opinions about who we are, what we do, and how we do it that maybe aren't even in this profession. Our public meetings, anyone can come and chat about whatever they want to say to our board. You knowing the rules, knowing your ethics, having values, and passing your experience on is needed to help grow and shape this profession, not only as supervisors, supervisors, and at the board level, at these meetings, getting involved with the legislative process. And, you know, if there is a change to the rule coming and you know that it's going to negatively affect your supervisees, you're willing to stand up and say, mm-mm, not on my watch. We need you and we want you to join.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Hey, quick heads up. This month's free bonus is something I build for every clinician who's ever wondered, am I thinking about supervision too early or not early enough? It's called the Clinical Leaders Roadmap, and it's a self-assessment and roadmap that shows you exactly where you are in your leadership development and what to build right now. Whether you're supervising today or planning for it down the road, this is the kind of clarity that makes every step after it easier. Grab it free at KateWalkertraining.com/slash bonus. Now, back to the episode. It's funny because there are actually a couple of rules I know Ashley and I kind of have our eye on right now because I don't I don't like them. And they lead to predatory supervision. They a lot of associates aren't happy because you know these things are happening. And I have to know, Ashley has to know because we weave this into our courses. And so that's one of the things we do when we go to the meetings, we make sure they understand that we're just not there because, you know, we're looky-loose, we're there because we are passing this information on to you guys. So let's let's talk about that. When, you know, this idea of systems. Systems are a safety net and you guys already have them. I mean, if you have your electronic health records, that's a system. If you have a way of getting your intakes into actual clients or your phone calls and turning them into actual clients, that's a system. You all have malpractice insurance. That's part of your system. A system is anything that you can take and just put it aside, and you don't, it doesn't have to wake you up in the middle of the night, you know, giving you a heart attack because, oh, oh no, I don't have malpractice insurance. What if something goes bad? You guys have already taken care of that. And so I know I was going to talk about malpractice insurance earlier. I have CPH because they do have uh really good supervision riders for their malpractice insurance. So you should be used to the idea of having these systems to help you just get through your day because yeah, supervision is adding another thing. So obviously, the proper training. One of the things that we talk about in our training, and also I wrote this in my book, the Clinical Supervision Survival Guide. I call it the OER framework. And it's one of those things, if you've been in a doctoral program, well, you know it in your master's program. It's those things you kind of go, well, duh. I just put a name on it. So basically, what we teach in the training is you have a supervision contract, then you have an orientation, then you evaluate regularly, then you have a remediation if you need it. Remediation is something required by the board if you feel like your supervisees are struggling. Well, a lot of courses don't teach that. It's just sort of like, hey, here's how you do the thing, good luck. And then the first time you get a little pushback, or you have a supervisee that's like, you know, I don't feel like coming in because you know what, my colleagues, they don't have to go to supervision, so why should I? One of the things Ashley was mentioning, you know, if they want to skip a supervision session, well, social work MFT, it's okay. They can skip with good cause shown. LPC, they need four hours a month. So they may just want to do one session that's four hours long. I don't want to do that. That's not part of my system. I don't do marathon supervision sessions. So when you have this supervision training, it should teach you how to deal with all of those situations from your contract to your orientation. It should give you evaluation instruments, it should give you ideas for your supervision sessions. So you're not just like, I don't know what to do today, right? Because Ashley mentioned two years. Well, LPC associates in Texas can finish in 18 months, LMFTs can finish in two years. Social work, it sounds like they can finish in two years. But I I know Ashley, you and I have talked about this. Social work that it can go on for quite a while, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Yes. So we have a test at the end of our supervision practice. I hate it because I think it's very much like what you learn in your master's program, not what you learn in therapy or as a social worker. But we have a large our kind of licensure test and they make them wait until after their two years are done. So as we know, with all of our supervisees and with just people, they get scared of the test, they get nervous to take it, or something happens and their anxiety gets the best of them and they don't pass the first time, and now their confidence is shot. So that is a big factor. That's probably my highest, most frequent thing why people continue with me. And the state of Texas eliminated this was gosh, I keep saying two years, but I think two is actually like four at this point. But they changed the rules fairly recently that said that there is no longer a time limit on how long you can do to take this process. So if you have someone who, like I do, I have someone who's she's in her 50s, she got all of her hours 25 years ago before she had kids. She stopped the process. She was a stay-at-home mom and she spent 25 years raising her kids. And then when her kids graduated high school and they're off and running, she came back to this process and this rule changed in the meantime. And if we could have found those records from her supervision from 25 years ago, the board was like, yep, absolutely. She could sit for her test today. So for the good or the bad, I'm not sure we haven't had it that long. Most states have either a four or a six-year cap, and then you would have to start over, but Texas eliminated that. So you can kind of have them as long as they want to be had. And I do have quite a few people who their partners make a lot of money. They don't feel particularly moved by the spirit to do very much work in a week. So I have some people who do two hours, three hours. I have some people who do 10, 12, and that's all they do. So this process will take them four or five, six, seven, twenty five thousand years. And you get to determine it's one of the feedback when I send people back their contract and their supervision plan, um, which we want you to have those resources when you graduate from our program. Those things, every without fail, people say, no more than two years. I'm like, babe, it can't be, it can't be two years. It's always a little more than two years because they have to take the test past it, etc. But the frequency with which I have people into two and a half years, three years, four years is high. So you can decide for your practice if you're gonna boot them at two years or if you're gonna, you know, kind of play ball with them for longer. But that is a factor in the state of Texas that they will let them, at least for now, they will let them go as long as they need to go. And for LPC and LMFT, it's different.

Pricing Business Models And Marketing

SPEAKER_01 37:54

So LPC and LMFT, five years max. There is no renewal. So when they hit 60 months, they actually have to reapply. And they may not lose their hours of supervision or their experience hours. It's up to the board. But yeah, there is a finite time. Also, LPC and LMFT, you used to have to take the test at the end, not anymore. They take their test at the beginning. So by the time you get them, they should be hitting the ground running. One of the systems that we do talk about in our training are business plans. The way to set up a business, a supervision business, because you can charge money for supervision. We have a Facebook group called Texas Supervisor Coalition. So we're always seeing questions in there about well, how much are people charging? Well, we have a course for that that's built into the 40-hour training. It's called How Much to Charge for Supervision, because it has to do with what you're offering. Folks, it is a buyer's market out there. With the advent of unlimited virtual supervision, folks can go to anybody they want. So if you have a specialized certification, you can charge more. If for LPC and LMFT, if they're allowed to own their own private practice, if you offer private practice mentoring, holy moly, you can charge more for that. Play therapy, if you're also a play therapy supervisor and you can give them their RPT designation. I mean, so when you start to think about what you can charge for supervision, it's just like anything else. You can charge the standard rate that everybody else charges, or you can add to that fee because you're offering so much more. Maybe you're gonna hire your supervisees. This is one of the things that I found out during the leadership listening hour. I love the idea of bartering supervision for direct hours. Not all of them. I mean, that's they need experience in other places. But one of the business models we teach in our course is called the Anne's Place model. And with that model, you ask your supervisees to donate three direct hours in your practice. They don't get paid for it. The money goes to you and you give them free supervision. Well, one of the things Robert Roamig said, okay, but in your supervision contract, you need to give a dollar amount, even if it is a free supervision hour, right? It's got a dollar amount to it. I don't know who else knows that. We know that, and that's one of the things we teach. So there are lots of ways you can build your business ethically with the systems that we have in place. The business plan, that's business plans are a system. And it's important to know that, you know, on the flip side, and if you're on Facebook, you know these things. When you have somebody who, like my very, very first supervisor, just hires and then gives you no business opportunities or hires you and then, you know, the split is unfair, or they misclassify you. We talk about that in our course. If you misclassify, I'm talking about those of you who are gonna hire your supervisees, which is wonderful, we want you to do that. But if you misclassify them instead of a W-2, you're calling them a 1099, and you haven't done all your homework. These are the ways that supervisors get in trouble and then they're done. They're like, Well, I got in trouble, I'm not gonna do this anymore. And we start from the very, very beginning. We want you to have the systems and the information, and we want you to start slow. So, yeah, I'm I'm going back. So, how do you set up the business plan? How do you recommend opening a separate supervision business from your private practice? You don't have to. It can be part of your clinical practice. And, you know, the the idea of whether you have an LLC or an S Corp or you just have a little DBA that you go down to the bank and say, Hey, I got a business, open up my business banking account. That's one of the things we talk about in the course because we have so much content where we've talked about this. It's really helpful if setting yourself up in a supervision practice is part of your goal. So I think that might answer will it financially benefit me? How will I get supervisees? We talk about that. So, yes, if you're charging a whole lot less than your client load, you know, you may not want to stack up a bunch of supervisees because you're not making as much money. So doing it barter system, having the ability to trade supervision for direct hours, again, as long as you do it ethically, that can be a fabulous way for your supervisees to get supervision. And then your business model is you're getting paid for that client hour. How will you get supervisees? We talk about building relationships with the universities. We talk about making presentations at universities, making sure that you really like the university that you're networking with. After all, there are a lot of universities out there. They're not accredited in the way that Texas recognizes is the accreditation that they want. So if they're coming to you from, you know, Joe's counseling university and they don't know what group therapy is, you know, ask me how I know, right? And my supervisee was working in a group setting, and we sat down, and it turns out she never had taken group ever. So somehow her syllabus, the title was different, or it wasn't anyway. She was in a job doing group therapy and she had never taken a class on group. So getting supervisees, it's more than just marketing. You want to make sure that you have these relationships, you're aware of the universities that are putting out students and graduates that you would want to have. Karen talked about getting private private. Practice or having your supervisees at another location, that's actually the norm. And since this is a designation that is attached to your license, it's up to you. I know for me, like I had a specific type of supervisee in a specific setting that I was comfortable with. If they were in a school setting, I wouldn't take them. I don't know anything about schools. So they either had to get a second supervisor, you're allowed to have two. And that supervisor and I would work together to make sure they got enough hours. But there was no way I was going to supervise something that wasn't within my scope of practice. So you can do that. There's a lot of freedom in that if they are at another location. Protecting your license, I mean, Ashley, this is really what we talk about the most, right? Because your liability does go up. We won't lie to you about that. You have your supervisees' clients on your plate, but there's a type of liability that you guys can mitigate. And we have direct liability, we have indirect liability. And so you want to make sure you're taking a course that talks about how to make sure you are doing everything you can. So if something happens, you know exactly step one. I'm going to have my supervisee do this. We're going to contact the board and do that. I'm going to make sure that we do this. What I mean, so it's it, yes, is it uncomfortable, but is it career-ending? Absolutely not.

Values Liability And Protecting Licenses

SPEAKER_03 45:34

And there was a point too that that to me leads straight into the we, Kate and I really talk about being anti-racist and and having culturally appropriate evaluations and assessments for who our supervisees are and where do we come from with our heritage, with our ethnicities, with our backgrounds, etc. So that's a huge part of what we talk about. And there was a comment about like how do I maintain my values, my code of ethics? Look at it that way. Yeah. When sometimes, and I would say frequently, how we operate as mental health providers are anathema to what the company or business does. So behavioral health or not, maybe they're working in a hospital, maybe they're working for an insurance company, maybe they're working in something that isn't even behavioral health in nature, but maybe even they are working for a behavioral health company. And you will find that the CEO and the clinical director and all these people are they have MBAs or they're like the bottom line is money, right? From most of these organizations is to remain solvent and to make a bunch of money for their stakeholders. So I have had many opportunities, and we talk about this in our course. There's multiple levels, right? Of like, what is our national? What does our code of ethics say? What does our board say? Then what does our state say? And sometimes those fight, right? We had a few years ago, our governor allowed you to discriminate for disability and sexuality. It only lasted one day because all of our boards were like, hell to the no. But that was a thing that the state said was as mental health providers, you can discriminate against people who are disabled. You, you, if you don't want to work with them, you don't have to. So those are the kinds of things that like there is a state level, a federal level, a local level, and a you level. And you have the ability to say, this is not something that I can ethically continue to supervise you with if this is what they're telling you to do. And like, like reporting is one of the things I think about the most. I've had many an organization that says, you do not report that. And I'm like, if you do not report that, we aren't working together and you will be superviseeless and maybe jobless. Like we have some power in this dynamic, and not that I'm gonna wield that over your head, but right's right. And what our our mandated reporting is is our guiding light. We are not gonna risk your license on some measly old bad boyfriend job who doesn't know what's what. And sometimes we have to educate them and our supervisees on what the state law is. And W-21099 is one of those things that I think what Kate was saying is one of the biggest ones. But there's many of them that you'll run into. If you have your values and you remain true to them, that is what we want. We want you to educate and bring up these supervisees in that ethic, moral, and cultural wellness so that they can not only outlast their bad boyfriend job, but also go on to do whatever they're meant to do. And I say this is the last thing I'll say about this, but like the quote that I use all the time is like, sometimes this process, getting their hours is a big, great hazing ritual. And they have to deal with whatever it is because they get their hours, they get good experience. But I encourage each and every one of them to be keeping a running list of like do's and don'ts. I will do this and this and this from this job. I'm taking these lessons and I will build that into my practice. And I sure as hell won't be doing X, Y, and Z because it's not, it doesn't feel right. It's not treating me well as the employee, what have you. So when they go to open their own businesses or work in other jobs, they know exactly which red flags to avoid and which green flags to chase.

Start Small Avoid Predatory Mistakes

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah. I mean, I that's one of the things I love about working with Ashley. A lot of times you're gonna hear supervisors or even seasons counselors treating associates like children, like, well, they just got to put up with it. We had to put up with it, so they should too. That's not how we do this. You are building a relationship. This is, I mean, supervision lasts longer than you know, most of my relationships in my life, right? I said my marriage, I've been married 30 years. But I mean, this is a long-term relationship. And if you're treating these professionals with a master's degree like children, you're just going to create an antagonistic relationship. So please be mindful of that when you start talking. I saw the post about gossiping and all that, you know, because yeah, people chit-chat and people talk about supervising. And these are hardworking professionals. And that's what we train you to do in our training. You know, treat them like that and help them grow. So, this is our advice, you know, no matter which course you take. Like I said, if you run into a course at somebody else's and you run into my materials, just know that I can't control that. Our materials are up to date. So only take on one or two supervisees maximum in year one. You are learning a new skill. This isn't like counseling where you're like, I just need to fill all the seats. I mean, I need I've got 14 hours this week. I need to fill every chair, every sofa spot. You want to start small because it's a trial run. And so for you, you've got you're practicing interviewing, you're practicing your orientation, you're practicing your contract. It's all bright and shiny and new. You want to make such sure this stuff works. And so for me, yes, LPC and LMFT can take five years, but not with me. With me, I say it very, very clearly in the contract. We will revisit this at 24 months. So I, and that's just me personally. That's not in the rules. I just know that for me, at 24 months, we need to make sure that we're still on track. So start small, have a clear ending date. And my book, I call it Supervising by Time or Supervising by Distance. Choose supervisees who align with your scope of practice. You can't give a supervisee a Myers Briggs, all right? You can't make sure that you're just gonna be totally aligned with your personality. And you know, besides interviews, you're literally interviewing someone who's a professional conversationalist, right? I mean, so this person knows how to lean forward and look interested and say the things they're supposed to say. So be aware, you're gonna spend probably three months in this trial period. And so you make sure you choose them, choose the ones who align with your scope of practice so at least you can check that box. It's like I said earlier, I won't take on school counselors because it's not within my scope. Set your fees appropriately, don't undercharge out of guilt or overcharge because you overestimate what you're bringing to the table. If you're a private practice mentor and that's what you're gonna put on your website advertising for supervisees, well, you know, don't tell them to go put door hangers on doors in neighborhood or put their name on the t-shirt that's gonna get fired out of a t-shirt cannon at a football game. Make sure you understand the latest in marketing, the latest in private practice. Get into community. I mean, that's one of the things, whether you take the course with us or you take it from somebody else. We have a Facebook group, we have monthly workshops where we bring in experts, we have memberships, we have all of these different free and close-to-free ways so that you can stay in community because you're gonna be a little nervous starting out about taking on that supervisee. And that's what we're here for. We're not just gonna take our hands off. And our communities are huge. I mean, I think our Facebook groups over 2,000. I know the podcast had like 35,000 downloads. I mean, so we have a big community of people, and you can tag Ashley, you can tag me in these groups, and we'll we'll find the answer if we don't know them. Know when to say no to wrong fit supervisees. That's what Ashley was talking about earlier with this assertive communication. I can't tell you how many times I just consulted on a case with an attorney not long ago, and the being able to or be trained, I'm gonna say be trained, because I'm not a confrontational person, but I've been trained to be. So that we can train you, we can give you the tools so that you can address things as they're happening so that you have a plan, you have a system. So if supervising becomes a bad fit, it's okay. There's a way out, and we can show you that. So the outline for the 40-hour training, this is actually in the rules. So the outline, every course in Texas, anyway, has to have 33 hours that is the same. So we have seven hours of wiggle room. And so we use those seven hours to give you the business information. We use the seven hours to give you the systems. We talk a lot about we, I think we're one of the only courses. Well, I don't know, but we do remediation plans. You leave our course with a contract. So if you want to see the specific things, so there's theories, developmental models, relationship, technology, administrative duties. And if you go to the courses, I believe KateWalkerTraining.com and click the course, find my supervisor course. I think it's a green button. It will outline a lot of what's in there. But I highly recommend you go to the rules. Rules are super easy to find. If you go to BHEC, if you're I'm talking to Texans, you'd go to BHEC and you can find the downloadable PDF and it will tell you exactly what's in every 40-hour training in Texas. Supervising 30 to 40 associates, is that feasible or the quality of supervision? Yeah, I'm gonna say no, just like Ashley did. And let me just let me balance that with I have colleagues where supervision is the majority of their practice. Like Ashley, you do that. I know I've got other, but they don't take clients really anymore. So if you would normally see 40 clients, like if that makes you feel warm and fuzzy, it does not make me feel warm and fuzzy. That's a lot of work. So absolutely, we want to train you to start small. And then later on, once you feel comfortable with your systems and your contract and your plan and your evaluations and your paperwork, then if you feel like shifting gears and just going straight to supervision and no more clients, absolutely we will walk you through that.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

And I think that's one of the biggest myths. I own the time, but one of the biggest myths I think is that I'm combating in a lot of the Facebook comments is one hour of supervision is not one hour of your time per week. Like I said, it takes time and energy. So, especially early on, you know, when they're a level one, the things they don't know will astound you. You're like, you have a master's degree, right? I've seen it. I you're licensed by the state. Uh huh. And we all have different programs. There's some similarities, but many, many differences. So you're working with them. And I cannot tell you how many crisis calls I've gotten on a Tuesday afternoon at two o'clock saying I don't know what to do. And your job is to remain calm, cool, and collected and walk them through and remind them of their training and make sure they're trained, all of those things. But the paperwork, the extra steps included. So starting small and calculating, okay, how much time is this taking me in this maybe first six months, first year, and assessing from there? I did at my most, I probably had 20 and it was more than a full-time job. It absolutely was. So you'll have a range of how many people are like, and you almost worry more about the people that are like not calling you and not checking in. But there is a range, and maybe you'll be a rock star super person and be able to handle 30 of them. I just can't uh in no way could I see that being not only like burnout is still real, all work produces burnout, and this is work. But you know, finding that sweet spot for you is going to be different for each individual person, and you can accomplish many, many, many amazing, great things with just a few supervisees, truly.

Resources Checklists And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 57:48

All right. So we're bumping up on time. So your next steps, if you want to take the training with us, you can go to katewalkertraining.com. If you want to do more research, we have some great episodes in the podcast. It's called Badass Therapists Building Practices That Thrive wherever you get your podcast. If you want to join the Facebook group, Texas Counselors Creating Badass Businesses, tag us. We can continue the conversation. So remember, so yes, you can charge for supervision. Will you make as much per session as you do with your clients? Not likely. Are there other business plans that you can incorporate and develop so that you can get more return on your investment? Absolutely. And there's a right and a wrong way to do that. Those include hiring your supervisees. That includes having an additional something that you add so you charge more. And then you might give special mentoring. I know folks who supervise new supervisees who are owning their own practice, they'll require more supervision. They'll say, you know what, if you're going to do this, I need you six hours this month, not four. So that's two extra hours of supervision. What we do not want you to do to make more money is have a million supervisees, especially if you're trying to do a full-time practice and you're brand new at this. If you want to have a supervision practice, yay, do that. But do not come out of the gate thinking you're just going to have a ton of supervisees and just do group, group, group. First of all, that's against the rules. You can't do that. So don't. Uh the other thing is misclassifying your supervisees that you hire. If they are doing W-2 work, but you are classifying them as 1099, that is a very, very expensive mistake. Don't do that. The other thing is you are selling a service you really can't provide. So if you are saying you're a practice mentor, but you don't know really much about practice, then don't do that. And one thing we didn't mention, as a supervisor, you can be part of that coveted 50% provider. So if you have any aspirations for adding another side hustle, creating CE courses as a supervisor in Texas with your S, you are part of the 50% that everybody in the state has to get in order to fulfill their requirements, right? Half their CEs have to come from a designated provider. You are one of those providers. Thanks for listening. If this got you thinking about supervision, grab the free supervision onboarding checklist at KateWalkertraining.com slash checklist. It walks you through exactly what you need in place before your first supervisee ever signs a contract. And if you're thinking, I wish I could get a CE for this, step it up members can. Check it out at Katewalkertraining.com slash step it up. If you love today's episode, be sure to leave a five-star review. It helps other badass therapists find the show and build practices that thrive. Big thanks to Ridgley Walker for our original fun facts and podcast intro, and to Carl Diamella for editing this episode and making us sound amazing. See you next week.