182 The Difference Between a Therapist and a Clinical Leader

Supervision is not just a continuation of clinical work. Without a shift in mindset, it becomes overwhelming and risky.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Ashley Stephens Durbin to talk about what it really means to step into clinical leadership in supervision. We unpack the identity shift that happens when clinicians move into supervisory roles, and why so many feel unprepared for the responsibility that comes with it.

We talk about the weight supervisors feel. Liability, authority, and decision-making that impacts not just one client, but many. This is where clinicians often get stuck. They were trained to reduce power in the therapy room, but supervision requires them to use it appropriately.

We also address one of the most common issues we see. Overcontrol. Supervisors who micromanage often believe they are being thorough, but in reality, they are limiting growth. We walk through how to recognize when supervision is creating dependence instead of independence, and what to do differently.

Another major focus is rule literacy. Supervisors must understand their board rules, legislative changes, and professional standards. Relying on secondhand information creates risk. Ethical leadership requires going directly to the source and staying informed.

This conversation is about responsibility. When supervision is treated casually, it creates confusion and liability. When it is approached as leadership, it becomes structured, ethical, and sustainable.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

•  Why supervision requires an identity shift, not just added skills 
•  How to recognize and reduce overcontrol in supervision 
•  What it means to build independent, not dependent, clinicians 
•  Why knowing your rules is a core leadership responsibility 

This is not about confidence, it is about structure and mindset. If you have been thinking about becoming a supervisor or questioning how you are currently supervising, this is your checkpoint.

If this episode resonates, revisit The Supervision Side Hustle: How to Add Income Without Burning Out. It pairs the business side of supervision with the leadership mindset we discussed here.

Want to learn more? Check out this month’s free resource from Kate Walker Training. If this episode raised questions about supervision, business structure, or how to build income beyond sessions while staying compliant, you do not have to figure that out alone. These are the exact conversations we have inside the Step It Up Membership, where we design practices that are ethical, structured, and built to last.

Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit. 

Transcript

When Supervisees Depend On You

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If you're not trusting that who this person is leading up to that point hasn't, then you have to take a look in the mirror and say, there is something that I'm missing in the process here of my leadership where I'm making them dependent on me rather than independent. And what do I need to do to shift that in my future generations of supervisees?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Welcome to Badman's Therapist, building practices of the mind. Now dear your host, Dr. Kate Walker. There's a version of being a therapist where you do excellent clinical work, you help your clients, and you go home. And then there's a version where you become the person others turn to for answers, for guidance, for what the rules actually say. Dr. Ashley Stevens Durbin is back today, and we're talking about what makes the difference. Not credentials, not years of experience. It's a way of thinking and a set of habits you can start building right now, wherever you are in your career. Now, let's get to work. Hey, I'm Dr. Kate Walker. Welcome to Badass Therapist Building Practices That Thrive. And this is my colleague, Dr. Ashley Durbin, who, and we're going to talk to folks today about becoming a clinical leader and the difference between being a clinician and being a leader.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah. So this is one of the areas that I particularly love because I think one of the largest pain points in our community of leaders, business owners, clinical practitioners, is that when we inevitably, and we're really good at making the switch when it comes, is we all inevitably become something more than we thought that we would be. If that's owning your own business, if that is becoming a manager or a leader or executive leader at work, whatever that looks like, I feel like most of us over our course of our career will take those next steps. Sometimes we give up those next steps and go back to what we were doing before. And I think that that it's particularly one of those areas that people struggle the most. We get taught how to be good clinicians. We don't necessarily get taught how to be good leaders. And what the difference in that is vast. And there's some kind of counter-jux positions between those two things. What works as a good clinician is actually the opposite of what works as a good leader. So we're going to take you through some of those things today about how to know if you're in that frame, if you're about to take on the next step, or if you're just thinking like I was my entire career, that I was a macro person and that this micro is great, but it's not where my heart is. How can you start getting yourself in the mindset, the frameworks, the kind of personality of what you need to be to take on that next role?

SPEAKER_01 3:12

For me, I mean, and I'm thinking about it as you're talking, and I have I have a story, but it's liability. I mean, when you think of a leader, you're looking at someone who takes charge, who recognizes that if they take charge, that the words coming out of their mouth will have a different impact, a different meaning, different consequences than it would if they were just, and I'll put that in air quotes, just the follower, right? So in the context of supervision, and I never really thought about this before, but when we're training a clinician to become a supervisor, we're training this clinician to be a leader. And I never would have said to a clinician, oh, you're not a leader, right? How insulting, right? At the same time, though, you know, the story I tell is when we used to teach this course face to face, my uh mentor, Dr. Judy Detrude and I, we would teach it face to face and it never failed. At the end of the last day, we would have one person or two people raise their hand and say, Hell no, I'm not doing this. And we had scared them out of supervising. But at the same time, I also think we had introduced this idea of an identity shift, right? We help people with their counselor identities so much. I mean, Ashley and I are both counselor educators. We understand that we're trying to help folks maybe change careers from a thing to becoming a clinician, and that is an identity shift. And we work, you know, we help them work through that. But to sit through a training and at the end of a training, which is basically just a jumbo CE, think, oh, I have a new identity. I am now a leader. I mean, that's a lot to expect. And that word liability, that's what was scaring people away, right? Because we really didn't have anything baked into the course to help people feel good about the new role, which in their mind was ding ding-ding. Oh my gosh, I'm I'm the one, I'm the target. I'm the one that will get in trouble, in the most trouble, more trouble than I would have gotten into. So I think this identity shift or this idea that we with our courses, I mean, we have courses nationwide now. We're training leaders all over the country. I I guess I just never, I mean, it took me a while, I'll put it that way, to think of it that way, that that's really what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah. And I think that that's one of those things, like many, many people that we talk to even are like, I'm just looking for a side hustle, right? Like I'm just looking for another thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

In fact, we have podcast episodes on that. If you want to click, you know, I'm sure we got a link in the notes. If you're wanting this for a side hustle, absolutely. Yeah.

Power And Authority In Supervision

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yeah. And I think that being a supervisor is so much more in my mind, there's so much more to it than maybe just becoming a manager at work, which maybe you've already been doing, you've already been managing people, or you've already, you know, you've been doing it name only, and now you officially got the rank or the pay or the whatever. It's a shift. And I think that uh when we take those new things on, I think sometimes people are just kind of like, oh, it's just, you know, just another Monday. And it's not, it's so important and it's such a complete getting that power, getting that authority, which you are going to have to use, is something that we as clinicians aren't often um aware of. And in fact, in our in our client work, we try and lower our authority and our power in that space so that our client can have more. We want it to be a little more equal. It will never be equal, but we want it to be feel a little more equal. In this, I absolutely need you to know that I have the power to make sure that this is not, you don't go forward if you're not doing what you should, that if you're hurting people or have the risk of harming people, that I am not going to let that happen. And that authority and power is sometimes things that we're not comfortable with, that we don't know how to wield, that we don't get trained on. And so that's what we wanted to talk with you today is as all of the ways that it can be so magical and how you need to prep yourself going into that shift.

Learning The Rules And The System

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah, I mean, and some people think, and I've interviewed them, we've got we've done some research on this, that it boils down to being a good interviewer. Okay. So I'm gonna somehow, that is my only leadership role, is I'm going to just be the most amazing interviewer on the planet. So I will be able to screen out any supervisee that might be difficult. I'm going to be able to screen out any supervisee that might just decide to, you know, take that level two autonomy to the max or whatever. And you are interviewing professional conversationalists. Like we just got finished training them to completely be able to nod, lean forward, look you in the eye, and make you feel good. We're breaking the news to you. It doesn't, your leadership role doesn't end with the interview. And when, you know, when Ashley and I first started developing uh these courses nationwide, and Ashley, you were telling me, like, okay, this state only has a three-hour course requirement, or that state over here only has a 17-hour course requirement. My brain just kind of locks up because I'm thinking, wait a minute, we can't teach them the leadership part. Like, yes, of course, we can give you the theories or the developmental models or the relationship, all the things, right? But to give you the systems that you need to support the leadership hat that you're going to be wearing, you know, it just shocks me a little bit because that is so integral to the way we develop and and teach our courses, you know. And yes, all of our courses are on demand and online, but we're going to make sure that you understand an integral part of becoming a leader is knowing the rules. Okay. I mean, seems simple, but Ashley, how many times do we read questions in these, you know, Facebook threads where, hey, what's the rule about blah, blah, blah? Or, you know, my associate's doing this. Is that against the rules? Or my intern wants to do X, Y, and Z. And I don't know, is there a rule for that? I mean, we see this all the time.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yes. And I think that that's one of the things that I talk to people the most about is you have to also build time into your schedule for being a rules like guru and starting to get deep into what the rules say, what the new like, what is the legislative process to create rules? Who's creating them? Who's writing them? How are they being written? What's a timeline for it? And I think that that's kind of this natural component that people really miss is that, oh, wait, now, now it's also up to me to help guide our profession as a whole as a supervisor who is going to walk clinicians through this. If there's a rule that you're looking at, like this, this may look good on paper, but it doesn't work in practice. And actually, it's harming people who are trying to get their licenses or not allowing them to do X, Y, or Z that we actually really need to be doing with clients. Those are the important things that I think get kind of swept away. And it it's a lot, you know. I used to joke that the board required a law degree to read what they were doing and the changes that were being made. And really, I need to recant that a bit. I don't think you need to be a lawyer, but I do think you need to be hanging out in the rule book, in the legislative process, in the laws a fair amount. And then you start to recognize, like, oh yeah, like I get what this is meaning, or I get the the why behind this. And I think that the Texas board has a really great way of why this came about, our reasoning, what it impacts, who it impacts. But we need to own not only that clinician voice, how can this impact the clients, but how can this impact our profession, our entire board, whether it's a psychology problem or a social work problem or a counselor problem or an MFT problem. Like we're in this together. And we need to stand up and speak when things are wrong or when things are right. Hey, I this law that you're thinking about changing is bomb. I use it every day. Here's the reasons why I think that it works. And so being just kind of that that literacy in the roles is really important and imperative to being a good supervisor.

Getting Involved Through Groups And Comments

SPEAKER_01 12:10

And that's one of the things Ashley and I love to do, BTW. I mean, we have ways that even if you're not from Texas, like Ashley, how many states are you licensed in? I just picked up a I got one this weekend. We talked about this. Yeah, it was a mistake. I'm licensed in one. Ashley's licensed in eight. And we love this though. We love the rules. And so one of the things we've done is we have a group, it's it's called the Texas Supervisor Coalition, not just for Texans. But I love to kind of keep an eye out, Ashley does too, when rules are up for comment. And so the first thing I do, I'm like, I'm like Paul Revere or whoever the person. I mean, I know there was more than just Paul Revere. I okay, guys, this rule is out there. What do you think? Hey, here's the link to go make the comment. So one of your roles or one of the new action items for you as you're taking on this identity of leader might be to plug into a group like the Texas Supervisor Coalition. Or how about your state organization? I don't know what state you're in listening to this. I mean, where you're located. Our state happens to have pretty active organizations, and I'm on the email list. So anytime there's a change that comes out, I get an email from my board, I get an email from my professional organization. A lot of times my professional organization will actually have talking points, and I may not agree with all of them, but I can use those talking points, and they usually provide me with a link to go find the rule with my very own eyes and you know, do all the things, which is usually to make comments. I'm either, and I'm always appreciative. I I really think when you are not a leader, it's easy to throw stones, especially at your licensing board, and say, you know what, you guys, whatever. When you become a leader and you're a supervisor and you're recognizing the process and how many voices are just clamoring for attention. And your role is really important. You recognize, okay, I'm a leader. I've got to say something. I have to get involved. So yeah, it could be that one more thing you have to do as you're thinking about supervising is oh, I don't know, renewing that membership to your professional organization that you let go when you finished your master's degree because your professor didn't require it anymore, right? So yeah, it's time to get involved and to be on the front edge of the things, all of the new things that are flying through legislation. I mean, Texas only meets once every two years. And I still feel like it goes by so fast. And it's it's hard to just catch everything.

Humility And Asking For Consultation

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yes. And and I think that that's one of the things that I think a lot about of like, who do I think is going to make a good supervisor or who's going to make a good supervisor of supervisees, who's going to be a good clinician, all of those kinds of things. I think about people who ask for help, who acknowledge that they may not know everything, that then say, well, where would I go to get that information? The board is an amazing place. And what you see, you will see, Kate, and I do very often is also saying, like, put it in the group, put it in our Facebook group. Because we, even though we've been around the block a time or two, have not had every single situation occur. There are many, many that I haven't. And I'm reading, and I'm like, that is crazy. I've never heard anyone having something like that go on. And it's like every other day this happens to me, where I'm like, oh, I thought, I thought I had all the things that could possibly happen. No. And so having a mentor, having a consultation group, having people who are like you, use your resources to get the information that you need. And I think one of the most powerful things of like, I think clinicians, like, we can admit when we're wrong sometimes, but like we're we're seen as the expert in the room. We have all of this education and training. And then as a supervisor, maybe you think, well, I'm supposed to be the expert in this room still. And yes, and knowing when you don't know is just as important as knowing, you know, that was a lot of no all in one, all in one sentence, but having that humility to say, this is this stumps me. I'm gonna go to my rule book. I'm gonna go to the board, I'm gonna go to my professional organization, I'm gonna go to my colleagues or my mentor and ask these questions is really, really vital.

Free Clinical Leaders Roadmap Bonus

No Snark And The Weight Of Words

Micromanaging Versus Building Independence

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Hey, quick heads up. This month's free bonus is something I build for every clinician who's ever wondered am I thinking about supervision too early or not early enough? It's called the Clinical Leaders Roadmap, and it's a self-assessment and roadmap that shows you exactly where you are in your leadership development and what to build right now. Whether you're supervising today or planning for it down the road, this is the kind of clarity that makes every step after it easier. Grab it free at KateWalkerTraining.com slash bonus. Now, back to the episode. And that's one of the rules, like the number one rule in all of Ashley's and my groups. No snark allowed. Like, I have seen how mean some of these consultation groups slash Facebook, social media, whatever, the comments can be so nasty. Like, how did you not know that? Right, no, we don't do that. If you didn't know, you didn't know. If you're just wanting to ask for a third time because you really need the validation, then okay. Ask for the third time. But that's what leaders do because your words are going to have 10 times the impact that they used to have. So yes, weigh them, be careful and get consultation. So one of the things I'm just gonna throw this out there, and if it's you, that's okay. Take a deep breath. But sometimes people think that leading means giving more advice, being more controlling. If you are supervising right now, and if your supervisees had to give you an evaluation, they might say something like, you know, that I can't I can't do anything right. And all they can do is correct me. And, you know, I've been doing this now, let's just do a random 13 months. And they still won't let me try out my own theory. They still won't let me try this modality that I've gotten this training on and they've supervised me on, and I've demonstrated proficiency in. So sometimes when we aren't really aware of what it means to be a leader, or or we've had a previous career and that was your job, your previous career. You had to have the hammer down and you had to make sure everybody was just and you had to herd all the cats, this is gonna feel different. So it is sometimes the case that we hear supervisors who are just a little too micromanagey, and that doesn't make you a leader. In fact, what it does is negatively impact the supervisory relationship because you're not really taking into consideration that level two supervisee needs to stretch their wings. Well, if you took a three-hour course in supervision, you might not have gotten that. I know in Texas they took away the expiration date on the supervisor course. So what that means is if you got your supervisor course 15 years ago, that's okay. You can start tomorrow and supervise. If you find yourself or hear yourself in our in the words that we're saying, then again, get yourself a refresher course. Get in there and or don't spend any money, just plug into one of our groups so that you can ask questions and understand about level one, level two. What should level two supervision look like? I mean, Ashley, you talked about that in the last last episode we did. This is these are the words that come out of my mouth at the beginning, or maybe you talked about it in this one. I don't remember. But you're this way, you're this controlling at the beginning, and you're this less controlling in the middle because they have to start to fly. And that is a leadership move, as my AI would say. That's a leadership move.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I love it. And it it's so like the goal of supervision is to grow them into your colleague, your network, your referral sources. So if you're not letting go, delegating, and allowing them to be who they're ultimately going to be as a clinician, then how would you ever trust that they're going to have it when you're not there anymore? And let me just tell you clearly the moment they get their license and they're like, all right, so see and ever. And no, no one has said that to me, but like, you know, that like we're just gonna stop cold turkey. And really, they they don't have to keep paying you. There is no real great reason to keep going once they get their clinical license. That was the goal. But it happens so suddenly sometimes that you're like, we've been prepping for this for years, but that you Never know what that date is going to be. And then you just have all of these recurring appointments get canceled because you're like, and we're done. That, like, if you're not trusting that who this person is leading up to that point has it, then you have to take a look in the mirror and say, there is something that I'm missing in the process here of my leadership, where I'm making them dependent on me rather than independent. And what do I need to do to shift that in my future generations of supervisees? You can be doing so many right things for them and still kind of make them dependent on you, which is not the name of this game. It's not the goal. It's uh independence more and more and more as they go on. So making sure that you're doing right by them and for you, what you don't need is as soon as people finish, you have a hundred people calling you and saying, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do. That's the sign that we need to kind of buckle in and start changing some things.

Using Coaching Questions To Let Go

Using AI Carefully For Rule Literacy

Choose One Leader Action Item

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah. So if you're listening to this and you are in the thick of it and you hear yourself in some of the scenarios that we're talking about, you know, it's it's not easy to pull back if you're being too controlling. But even saying something as simple as, well, how would you handle that? If you knew what to do, what would you do? The miracle question, if you had a magic wand and it turned out the way, I mean, you guys know how to do this when you're giving a client autonomy to figure out things. So you translate that into, okay, I've got this level two supervisee. And however you measure that, you don't know, take our course. No, seriously, you can there are lots of things you can Google. Google that. Google developmental models for supervision, and they will pop up. There will be a nice PDF you can read, ask AI to give you all the high points of it. And then either back off if you've been too controlling, or buckle down. And we talked in the last episodes about how to have hard conversations, the OER triad, how to implement uh evaluations, all of those things. That's what a leader does. If you're listening to this and it's something, maybe you're doing everything right, but you're you don't know your rules, and that's overwhelming. Again, AI is your friend. I mean, if you have a PDF, I know in Texas, we can download a PDF and you can take sections, I'm sure I haven't done this, but uh pop it into to chat or your favorite AI and ask them to teach you what is what is going on here. I here's the caveat though. I want you to hear me really, really clearly. Please, please, please put your hand on your heart. Promise me that if someone posts an AI summary of a board meeting, ignore it. Please ignore those. Go to the board meeting minutes. Go see exactly what's happening because AI doesn't always get it right. I mean, we know that, right? We're I'm we're not newbies here anymore. We're this isn't 18 months ago. Please, please, please don't look at that AI-generated summary and say, okay, that's all I have to do. Instead say, oh my gosh, this looks so interesting. I'm going to attend the next board meeting virtually. I'm going to sign up for my professional organization and pony up the$120 for an annual membership. I'm going to go to uh Kate Nashley's Free Facebook group. But create an action item. I mean, I challenge you, after you listen to this podcast, create an action item for yourself that looks very leadery, right? Dig into the rules, enforce your boundaries, maybe unclamp the claw a little bit on your snowplow that you're well, however the metaphor is. But do one action item that looks like a leader. And remember, it's okay to not feel like it. This is a fake it till you make it kind of thing. You took the course. If you're listening to me and you've taken the course, right? You have the skills, you've got the education, you can do this. So do the things we're telling you to do till they feel right. And then there you are. I mean, it's it's that simple, right? I don't know. Maybe not that simple.

Legacy And The Ripple Effect

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah. And and I think like just that is the mindset shift of I have this responsibility, I have this duty, I am honor bound in a way that I wasn't before, should be that kind of guiding light for you. Of like, I not only can impact my clients, but now I'm impacting clients of clients in a in a weird way. I'm like a grandmother of clients now. So how look at that ripple effect, which is why a lot of us get in to do this work, right? How many people can I affect if I'm training hundreds throughout my career of people? I mean, massive, massive legacy. And that's amazing. What do you want your legacy to be? Do you want it to be someone who couldn't unclinch, or would you rather have it somebody who grew a whole generation of clinicians to be badass business owners, supervise themselves, work with clients in ways that help all just everyone they touch kind of grow and be better? That's the legacy you want. And we can't we can't get there if we're continuing to think small and that we're continuing to use like the client room as our guiding light. That's not it. It's so much bigger and more important, and there's so much more responsibility in that.

Closing Resources And Review Request

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah. And and that's that's why Ashley and I do this. We're kind of passionate about it. Yeah. All right. Well, that's all I got. Anything else you can think of? That's it. All right, y'all have a great week. We'll see ya. Thanks for listening. If this got you thinking about supervision, grab the free supervision onboarding checklist at KateWalkertraining.comslash checklist. It walks you through exactly what you need in place before your first supervisee ever signs a contract. And if you're thinking, I wish I could get a CE for this, step it up members can. Check it out at KateWalkertraining.com slash step it up. If you love today's episode, be sure to leave a five-star review. It helps other badass therapists find the show and build practices that thrive. Big thanks to Ridgley Walker for our original fun facts and podcast intro, and to Carl Dianella for editing this episode and making us sound amazing. See you next week.